View Full Version : Xtherm vs Winterlite
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 11:03
It's time for me to pick up a winter inflatable... looking at Exped Winterlite or the Xtherm.
http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/synmat-winterlite-mw
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/fast-and-light/neoair-xtherm-and-xtherm-max/product
Really this should be a no-brainer- the Xtherm is a clear winner, well reviewed by all, and I am very happy with my Neo-Air's (Sm, Womens, Large) although I am specifically looking for a wide size so large xtherm or MW winterlite.
The only wrinkle is that this pad is specifically for a bridge hammock. On the ground you're just insulating, but in the hammock you're dealing with convection loss from the wind. Last night I got forced off my bridge and back into the house by a damp, windy high 30's evening. I was on my large neo-air, which on the ground would have been fine, but in the air didn't stand a chance.
I was all set to buy the Xtherm, but last night made me rethink the choice. The winterlite has synthetic fill in the chambers- which would cut convection loss much better than the Xtherm...
The xtherm does have the double layer of chambers, and a higher R-value- but maybe not in real life windy conditions. The xtherm could easily loose half it's r-value in the air, where the winterlite may perform more like an UQ with the thermal break being closer to the outside surface.
FWIW- this bridge is specifically designed for it's ability to sleep on the ground or the air- so an UQ isn't an option.
Also- heard of some durability issues/complaints on the Exped and I am curious for any feedback from folks here.
So exped in general, other thoughts, or random speculation welcome.
Starvin Marvin
10-29-2015, 11:49
Maybe a reflective HeatSheets under the pad would help. For the X-Therm, I would cover the sides also.
bigcranky
10-29-2015, 12:24
For pad use in cold (sub freezing) weather, I had more success with a wide Ridgerest than any inflatable. It's wide enough to wrap pretty well around my torso, doesn't allow any convection loss, and is reasonably light -- though it's very bulky when rolled. On the ground it's, um, not as comfortable as my Neoair. So this information is totally useless for you, I guess. :)
What's the order of priorities JB? insulation, sleeping comfort, hang/ground versatility, cost, wt, packability(volume), shape, etc?
For example, if you're mainly hanging are you absolutely needing an inflatable pad for sleeping comfort in itself regardless of insulation? If wt is a priority could you address convection heat loss without an inflatable pad quite possibly ditching significant wt, bulk, and cost? You are looking at some pricey pads that will largely be used on a limited basis? Could you more cheaply temporarily amend one of your existing pads like the large Neo Air to beef up insulation rather than adding yet a fourth winter pad to your already 3 inflatable pad arsenal which would save money.
Personally, even though I get out about three-four wks every winter I no longer have a separate winter inflatable pad. Then again I'm not typically hanging during the coldest windiest times of yr still choosing to have a UL winter kit. In my comparisons and based on what I know hanging in winter is always heavier by a rather too wide margin for me compared to going to the ground.
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 13:25
BigCranky- Yar, foam of any sort seems to solve the convection loss in the air but blows the comfort on the ground unless you cherry pick a site or hop in the time travel machine and get back to yer twenties, lol.
"What's the order of priorities JB? insulation, sleeping comfort, hang/ground versatility, cost, wt, packability(volume), shape, etc?"
I sleep outside about 3/4 of the year- mainly at home these days sadly. But I do get use from it, and thankfully I can write off the pad (company R&D) so owning a dedicated winter pad isn't the end of the world as pretty well oct-april is cold enough to justify it around here. And it beats having to own a winter UQ and a winter pad if cost was an issue I think the pad is more bang fer your buck.
Last winter I played with UQ's mainly and got that pretty well figured out... for weight you can't beat an UQ really. Packability is a toss. At some point (zero ish) you need to add a CC foam pad for safety/backup and wind or ground convection barrier... but that middle ground 10-40* I think (hope) can be done in one shot. And the inflatable would keep that late season kit smaller which is very nice.
Been working on that UL Bridge design too and BY FAR slipping a large xlite into it has been the most comfortable night's sleep ever. It's like a floating cot and by far the best hammock experience I've had. The design works well even with a small neo-air, foamies or self inflaters too- but since the bridge itself is light, I figure most would be like me and take the few ounce penalty for comfort.
But 40* just won't cut it for most folks, so I need to figure out the cold weather side of it while keeping the comfort, packability and versatility of the overall design.
I'm not fanatical about hanging, and like most folks I think the turn-off to hammocks is lack of versatility and higher entry costs (and occasional laziness when reaching camp). Being able to "go to ground", or shelter, or hostel, or cowboy camp on a mountain top, meadow, or southern bald are all things I don't want to give up either... but I do like the hammock a lot and have come to prefer it, but I'm not all-in. "I don't always drink beer..."
The hammock also solves the UL dilemma of finding a suitable waterproof fabric for the ground- but does introduce the wind/convection issue.
So I really like just slipping in a pad and not having to own multiple sets of hanging and ground gear and getting the best of both worlds in one package. And for the overall package of everything you mentioned above... I'm getting close to perfect for my needs.
Anywho... verbose as usual. But that's the goal- One supersystem.
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 13:34
Maybe a reflective HeatSheets under the pad would help. For the X-Therm, I would cover the sides also.
I thought this type of product only worked well as the "next to body" layer?
Seems like those that use Refletix say it only works well in that area... otherwise it's just bubble wrap.
I thought of a space blanket on the pad... but I think same issue correct?
bigcranky
10-29-2015, 16:09
BigCranky- Yar, foam of any sort seems to solve the convection loss in the air but blows the comfort on the ground unless you cherry pick a site or hop in the time travel machine and get back to yer twenties, lol.
Yeah. Sigh. I hate to tell you this, but it only gets worse. :)
I'm not seeing how you can't use 1) an UQ w/ a bridge hammock when there are specific bridge hammock UQ designs meant for colder temps 2) throw into the mix something like a mylar, Reflectix, CCF. etc layer to address convective heat loss w/ what you already own
I don't recognize a "UL dilemma of finding a suitable waterproof fabric for the ground- but does introduce(address?) the wind/convection issue. Several common UL fabric/material options that would serve both functions with less cost, wt and bulk but perhaps adding some complexity.
Sincerely, I though I occasionally made things more complex than needed. Now, I see I'm not the only one that can do that.
It seems, based on the typical scenario of sleeping at home in your yard 3/4 of the yr, wt and bulk don't play high priorities. Cost isn't an issue. How fortunate you are. Sleeping warm and comfortable seem to be the highest priorities while in your yard with a lesser desire to have supreme versatility. In my mind, considering the approaches suggested above seem to be your best bet in hitting all your goals
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 17:15
Yeah. Sigh. I hate to tell you this, but it only gets worse. :)
:D
Yar, I think the growing popularity of hammocks is largely due to the large number of baby boomers out there today.:jump
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 17:46
Well Dogwood the goal is to leave the backyard when opportunities arise. ;)
Otherwise I could just get me a big ol bed and slap back there with no thought besides a tarp. :D
Call the goal dual use- ground/air and it's pretty simple really.
Follow that with comfort, weight, packability.
As she sits now... the bridge is 16oz (or so), Xlite in L is 16 oz, and my PL 45* quilt is 15 oz. At roughly 8L of space.
Though I'm still tweaking some stuff I'm pretty happy with that to 40* or so.
My 25* quilt adds a few ounces and a few liters...
So the question remains- can I swap something simple like an Xtherm for another few ounces and little space and cross into the 20 ish or better territory which would cover me pretty well 95% of the time. For the odd deep cold night I could take the Xtherm to the ground and bundle up my tarp and some clothes or swap in a warmer TQ and face zero easily enough without adding the bulk of foam or adding another UQ to my theoretical closet.
Though I agree- an UQ is the easiest solution in the air by far.
That said- figure money into it. To be fair this rig is also meant to be sold cemmercially at some point too.
$100 bridge- works year round. (One and done)
Say the X therm works- one could buy that as their only pad if money was tight for $225.
This is still in line with a *20 UQ cost/weight/packed size- but works on the ground too and works for all seasons at only a few ounce penalty over an Xlite pad in summer.
You could also get away with the 25* TQ for all but summertime use if money was tight, or eventually pick up a summer and/or winter TQ/sleeping bag as most of tend to do and be covered year round ground or air.
So assuming it all works roughly as advertised temp wise-
$100 bridge, $225 pad, $200 TQ good to about 20* all said and done... $550 or so.
About 3.5-3.75lbs and 10L or less and you can camp air or ground in fairly high comfort.
Add a tarp of your choice to that and you're in fine shape. (maybe a scrap of polycro or tyvek too)
Learning curve is pretty low too as you don't have to master the mysteries of UQ's and bridges are a pretty repeatable and easier setup IMO than many hammocks. Using the pad with it only further simplifies the quirks as any minor issues with your hammock rig from night to night smooth out pretty well since the comfy air pad can function much the same as on the ground and smooth out the bumps and lumps. So one big reason to push the pad is to maintain simplicity overall- a foamy or UQ don't smooth setup variations as well.
LOL- although I really just wanted to know about the two pads I asked about and somebody got me yakking. :o
Yo Bill,
The only thing that I can add to this thread is my unqualified endorsement of the Xtherm Large.
When I bought it I slept on the floor of my apartment for a week. I repeated the week twice more at roughly 1 week intervals. Pleased as punch I was.
Not content with my 3 1 week trial runs, I repeated my Xtherm on the floor trial recently. 2 months straight on the floor this time. More impressed than ever.
I plan to move the trial outdoors between Christmas and New Years. Historically, I can count on one or more nights in the 'teens. I'm looking forward to it.
Test results in 2016.
Good luck with your experimentation. My vote is for some form of foam under an Xtherm. Go for it!
Wayne
Standing by for a Just Bill ~30°F - 40°F synthetic quilt. I can't sleep in the Alpinlite all the time.
LOL. I thought you were out in the yard guarding the chicken coop and grow lights. ;)
LOL- although I really just wanted to know about the two pads I asked about and somebody got me yakking. :o
LOL. That's not too hard. When you have a hat on always too tight lots of air and sound tend to come out of the mouth. :D
Westside Chi(Shy) town is like the wildwest. Have you checked the hammock for bullet holes? You might be losing insulation warmth from bullet holes. The biggest issue you might have sleeping in the yard is having it stolen or experiencing a shoot out. :D
Dogwood,
No chickens or grow lights. I will have to share my elevated deck with the raccoons. I hope they don't like to eat goose down.
Wayne
Just Bill
10-29-2015, 18:40
LOL, you really think I should put grow lights on the chicken coop?
Then I would save money on the bullet proof vests for the chickens... can't begin to explain what a PIA it was to sew those up...
Otherwise the NeoAir Xtherm is a hands down winter winner so guess I'll bite the flying bullets and give that a go. (Did I mention I work in Gary, IN now... bullets all damn day now) If it ain't broke (on the ground) why fix it for the air unless I need to. I think if I got to the 20* range that's plenty for most users really... even an early season AT hiker could hit the ground for the odd night below that I suppose. I ended up just hitting the ground last year at Harriman when our first night out ended up around zero and very windy as that exceeded the 0* UQ I brought along.
Wayne- I'm waiting on those quilts too buddy... I did get some very nice shop samples back from one sewing contractor but they may not be able to take on my work so the quest continues...
We tightened up the seam allowances and some design tolerances and this last sample came out to 13.3 ounces! for the 45* regular. I really wish I could get going but I doubt I will be able to until early next year so hence the bridge hammock distractions.
LOL, you really think I should put grow lights on the chicken coop?
Then I would save money on the bullet proof vests for the chickens... can't begin to explain what a PIA it was to sew those up...
Otherwise the NeoAir Xtherm is a hands down winter winner so guess I'll bite the flying bullets and give that a go. (Did I mention I work in Gary, IN now... bullets all damn day now) If it ain't broke (on the ground) why fix it for the air unless I need to. I think if I got to the 20* range that's plenty for most users really... even an early season AT hiker could hit the ground for the odd night below that I suppose. I ended up just hitting the ground last year at Harriman when our first night out ended up around zero and very windy as that exceeded the 0* UQ I brought along.
Wayne- I'm waiting on those quilts too buddy... I did get some very nice shop samples back from one sewing contractor but they may not be able to take on my work so the quest continues...
We tightened up the seam allowances and some design tolerances and this last sample came out to 13.3 ounces! for the 45* regular. I really wish I could get going but I doubt I will be able to until early next year so hence the bridge hammock distractions.
No worries. It will take at least that long to get approval from the Minister of the Treasury & Keeper of the Purse Strings. In the meantime I will plan trips where I will need either my 20 degree or my 0 degree bags.
All the best to you!
Wayne
Casey & Gina
10-29-2015, 23:33
How about one of these on the bottom? http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/multimat-terracotta
How about one of these on the bottom? http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/multimat-terracotta
That's an example of the CCF layer I suggested. It's a simpler solution in my mind to amend what you already have.
The good news is I know you'll get it right in the end, master tinkerer. Good luck to you.
Just Bill
10-30-2015, 09:48
The good news is I know you'll get it right in the end, master tinkerer. Good luck to you.
Thankee Sai
Just Bill
10-30-2015, 09:55
How about one of these on the bottom? http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/multimat-terracotta
That's an example of the CCF layer I suggested. It's a simpler solution in my mind to amend what you already have.
Yar, that's a decent way to do it for sure.
I think I'd go with a cut down ridgerest or trimmed GG pad though on this model, with the pad sleeve already in place the extra shell is unneeded and I wouldn't have to add a handful of DW's top secret binder clips.
Slipped a GG 1/8" pad in last night (35* but not too windy) under the NeoAir and that was "mostly" sufficient. I'd need a wider version to match the 26" pad as I could feel the cold on the sides.
Sandy of PA
10-30-2015, 22:22
I own both pads and on the ground, the X-Therm feels much warmer to me. The Exped insulation does not go as close to the edges and takes longer to get warm. Tossing and turning loses heat from the pad. YMMV
Just Bill
10-30-2015, 22:59
I own both pads and on the ground, the X-Therm feels much warmer to me. The Exped insulation does not go as close to the edges and takes longer to get warm. Tossing and turning loses heat from the pad. YMMV
THANKS!!
I found some reviews on BPL... they noted and posted pics that the outer baffles contain NO insulation...Exped did that on purpose to keep weight down per one poster who contacted them. Wrong corner to cut.
Too good to be true... Even the new downmat version is unfilled at the edges- I'd be pissed if I bought that!
Yar, that's a decent way to do it for sure.
I think I'd go with a cut down ridgerest or trimmed GG pad though on this model, with the pad sleeve already in place the extra shell is unneeded and I wouldn't have to add a handful of DW's top secret binder clips.
Slipped a GG 1/8" pad in last night (35* but not too windy) under the NeoAir and that was "mostly" sufficient. I'd need a wider version to match the 26" pad as I could feel the cold on the sides.
OK. mentioning an 1/8" foam pad is more than I can resist. I still believe that you should be able to wear that foam in some fashion -- so that you have a perfect fit of foam to your back and sides, with no extra foam. I use a foam wrap that works perfectly but is awkward to get wrapped on. You could design a wind shirt with foam pockets -- one of which would take the sit pad from the back of your pack, perhaps. (actually, my foam pad tucks into my pants to the bottom of my butt -- needed there, too) The added advantage to this approach is that you are warmer when sitting around too -- your insulation isn't wasted waiting for you to climb into your hammock. Oddly enough, I will be camping with a friend next week and he will be using my winter underquilt. I will be using my wearable foam pad and summer quilt, and I do believe I will be just fine.
Just Bill
10-30-2015, 23:33
I still think your foam vest is a good one... especially for a backsleeper like yourself. While mental experiments were my limit I couldn't figure smooth way to do the shoulders for side sleep.
I found some 1/16" foam skin that might work well in a garment-http://www.foambymail.com/MC2-SKIN/cross-linked-polyethylene-foam-skins.html
I considered it for a pad sleeve or even outer layer of an UQ but never tried it. A HF member was nice enough to send a square, but it tore easily when stitched so I never pursued it...
Kyle at Ripstop by the roll just came out with some .5 oz no-see um... that sewn into a windshell or even as a stand alone butt length tank top style garment might make a nice holder for the skins. If nothing else 2-3 layers of the skin would layer much better than a single 1/8" and conform to you better.
Just Bill
10-30-2015, 23:56
And of course one of them pretty skirts you like so much would be easy to put a liner into :D
with haloween just behind us, I was daydreaming during a walk today and realized that all of the superhero costumes I just saw on kids begging for candy have the built-in foam padding that would make an ideal wearable insulation suit, if the foam was the right r value... i'm not sure that is particularly useful, but it is a great image!
Just Bill
11-03-2015, 11:57
The "foam" is usually cotton or poly batting. Junk. That stretch lycra is really heavy too (4-6oz yard).
But you would make a good Peter Parker. :)
32515
I went as a Jack-O-Ass
32516
Yar, that's a decent way to do it for sure.
I think I'd go with a cut down ridgerest or trimmed GG pad though on this model, with the pad sleeve already in place the extra shell is unneeded and I wouldn't have to add a handful of DW's top secret binder clips.
Slipped a GG 1/8" pad in last night (35* but not too windy) under the NeoAir and that was "mostly" sufficient. I'd need a wider version to match the 26" pad as I could feel the cold on the sides.
Could design a bridge hammock with a double layer or pad inset sleeve you could add a temporary pad to address comfort and conventional heat loss. Or, do a Big Ages bag with a sleeve on the occasions when that is called for.
Casey & Gina
11-03-2015, 15:27
Even the new downmat version is unfilled at the edges- I'd be pissed if I bought that!
:eek: that's awful! The Downmat TT 9 should be a safe bet, though.
Just Bill
11-03-2015, 15:34
Could design a bridge hammock with a double layer or pad inset sleeve you could add a temporary pad to address comfort and conventional heat loss. Or, do a Big Ages bag with a sleeve on the occasions when that is called for.
Yar, this version is a double layer, but the second layer is differentially cut and both layers are loadbearing.
I tried the Xtherm last night, bout 50 when I went to bed and I was roasting. I woke up a bit chilly later at around 40*, but I had stripped off my hat and folded my quilt down when I fell asleep.
I've got some hopes... though the xtherm may prove to warm to be a "one pad" solution. We'll see, won't hit the 30's until this weekend... we got ourselves a heat wave.
Interesting. I don't find the Xtherm warm at all on the floor of my apartment with the thermostat set to 78F in Houston's sweltering summer. I did possibly, maybe detect a slight increase in air pressure in the morning indicating that the Xtherm had warmed up during the night. It has never been uncomfortable.
Wayne
Casey & Gina
11-03-2015, 16:12
Interesting. I don't find the Xtherm warm at all on the floor of my apartment with the thermostat set to 78F in Houston's sweltering summer. I did possibly, maybe detect a slight increase in air pressure in the morning indicating that the Xtherm had warmed up during the night. It has never been uncomfortable.
I always figured that a mat couldn't really be "too warm" since the best mat will have a lower R-value than, say, your mattress. It should stop heat transfer but not generate heat. Maybe the reflective layers in the XTherm are an exception to that?
Just Bill
11-03-2015, 16:13
I'll get back to when I have accrued more than a whopping one night on it, lol.
Although I may now be qualified to write a cutting edge review on the blog I don't have:eek:
Yar, this version is a double layer, but the second layer is differentially cut and both layers are loadbearing.
I tried the Xtherm last night, bout 50 when I went to bed and I was roasting. I woke up a bit chilly later at around 40*, but I had stripped off my hat and folded my quilt down when I fell asleep.
I've got some hopes... though the xtherm may prove to warm to be a "one pad" solution. We'll see, won't hit the 30's until this weekend... we got ourselves a heat wave.
Interesting. I don't find the Xtherm warm at all on the floor of my apartment with the thermostat set to 78F in Houston's sweltering summer. I did possibly, maybe detect a slight increase in air pressure in the morning indicating that the Xtherm had warmed up during the night. It has never been uncomfortable.
Wayne
I always figured that a mat couldn't really be "too warm" since the best mat will have a lower R-value than, say, your mattress. It should stop heat transfer but not generate heat. Maybe the reflective layers in the XTherm are an exception to that?
Yar, now yar need to get a cooling layer or a fan or sleep narked. :D
Sandy of PA
11-03-2015, 22:02
I used the X-therm in the summer, found that it is cooler if you flip it dark side up. It was tolerable with a cool-max liner on it as a sheet, otherwise I stuck to the plastic.
The "foam" is usually cotton or poly batting. Junk. That stretch lycra is really heavy too (4-6oz yard).
But you would make a good Peter Parker. :)
32515
I went as a Jack-O-Ass
32516
LOL. He throws on an orange vest and yellowish orange shoes for his HallOWeenie costume.
Good looking little folk. They must resemble their mom. :)
Just Bill
11-04-2015, 19:00
Hey give me a little credit - I had a pack and a chrome dome too... I'm sure everyone in surburbia knew exactly what I was dressed as :rolleyes:
As far as I know that was mom in the first pic, she's the one who collects the support payments...
My fella looks a bit more like her.
32535
The cupcake's initial's are "AT" and that bitch is all mine.:eek:
32536
Sorry for the gratuitous I think my kids are cute pics.
I wasn't as hot on my Xtherm last night, course I left the tarp off and a fog rolled in so my hammock was soaking wet when I went to bed...
No need for apologies for pics like that. Big tree ya fellar is standing in. Cute girlie too. Mom lokkas little like a dark haired Reese Witherspoon. Dad, well he's dad. Exactly what were you dressed as ...from your perspective? Suburbia Patagonia Hipster?
Enjoyed the reprieve from having to read anymore about the world dilemma of whivh pad to sleep on. :D
phourgenres
11-05-2015, 01:27
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=103798
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 12:08
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=103798
Yar, that was the final nail in the coffin for the Exped series for me...thanks for posting it I should have.
Looking at it again it's also reasonable to assume that unless dramatically overfilled most down mats would have a similar loft recovery problem (cold spots) even if they were filled to the edges. A sleeping bag can draw air from every direction and recover loft more completely than an air tight baffle.
I can't imagine that half filling and beating on the mat to bust clumps every night would be pleasant for the user or good for the pad.
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 12:20
No need for apologies for pics like that. Big tree ya fellar is standing in. Cute girlie too. Mom lokkas little like a dark haired Reese Witherspoon. Dad, well he's dad. Exactly what were you dressed as ...from your perspective? Suburbia Patagonia Hipster?
Enjoyed the reprieve from having to read anymore about the world dilemma of whivh pad to sleep on. :D
Just Mom (my mommy) says it best, "Bill is his own costume".
Yar, that tree is pretty cool. It's a good 6-8' at the root base there where it toppled over along the I&M trail, the trunk is a good 4' or better. While I have to take my punkin costume off to fit I can squeeze through the tunnel tree still when egged on by the boy. It's probably 20' long. There's some pretty monster trees hiding along that trail. We got to watch a great blue heron catch some fishies too and ran into a few folks from Hammock Forums who like camping out there.
32542
And likely you can appreciate how much fun it is to play with nice ripe radioactive Zombie brains
32543
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 12:29
Yar, that was the final nail in the coffin for the Exped series for me...thanks for posting it I should have.
Looking at it again it's also reasonable to assume that unless dramatically overfilled most down mats would have a similar loft recovery problem (cold spots) even if they were filled to the edges. A sleeping bag can draw air from every direction and recover loft more completely than an air tight baffle.
I can't imagine that half filling and beating on the mat to bust clumps every night would be pleasant for the user or good for the pad.
What I always thought would be neat is a self-inflating mat with a lot of the foam drilled out (similar to the Therm-a-Rest ProLite Plus but with less foam left intact), with each of the drilled portions filled with down. This would very effectively keep the down in place and be a more comfortable mat than the blow-up style. If I could figure out the appropriate foam and outer materials and adhesive to use, I'd try making this myself.
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 12:50
You're on the wrong track there I think...
NeoAir line- uses a space blanket type material to reduce some heat loss, but mainly just uses air trapped in a baffle. The Xtherm simply doubles the layers of baffles.
Really the difference between a double or triple pane window. From talking to the BPL folks they have suggested that when this layer of trapped air is much thicker than 1/2" or so that microcurrents of air form and reduce the insulating value.
Prolite (self inflators)- use a nice soft foam to self inflate, but otherwise same concept. The foam in and of itself is not dense enough to support bodyweight so you would crush it if the air wasn't trapped... but again, basically trapped air. So in that case filling it with down wouldn't do anything for you as the air is already trapped and the channels in the foam are already small enough for our needs to prevent air flow within them.
Downmats- Work just like a sleeping bag or self inflator- you'd crush the loft if you laid on the down, the inflated pad prevents it. Down is the best insulator we use ounce for ounce, but unlike foam, no loft, no insulation.
In messing with sleeping gear so much the last year or two I've noted that down compresses so well that to get it to reloft requires a good bit of room to breathe. You'd either need to let a downmat sit for a good bit to breathe (ideally with a valve at either end) to achieve maximum loft... or you'd need to over fill it so much that it would defeat the point from a weight and cost perspective. In large part this principal is why my PL Gold bags can compete well on weight and performance with a down bag in temps above 30* (or lofts below 1.8" or so really).
What might be nice... would be an Xtherm style pad with a skin of 1/8" or other light foam on the bottom and sides. Solves both the failure problem as there is some back up foam in the mat as well as relying purely on the "multi-pane" window technology.
Seems to prove out in this discussion as well regarding the issues with taking a pure air pad from ground to air- the cold air moving over the surface of the pad creates micro flows within the baffles that peel away the heat not just from the surface layer, but from adjoining layers too.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 13:34
Prolite (self inflators)- use a nice soft foam to self inflate, but otherwise same concept. The foam in and of itself is not dense enough to support bodyweight so you would crush it if the air wasn't trapped... but again, basically trapped air. So in that case filling it with down wouldn't do anything for you as the air is already trapped and the channels in the foam are already small enough for our needs to prevent air flow within them.
Sure, but the primary value of the open cell foam is maintaining an even thickness between the top and bottom layers of the pad. This is why I find self-inflating mattresses more comfortable than blow-up mats. It also keeps them from feeling bouncy the way blow-up mattresses do. The problem is that the foam is heavy, hence why they cut parts out to reduce the weight. The more cutouts, the lower the R-value, which is why the Women's ProLite Plus, which has a higher R-value, has less cutouts than the standard version for the torso portion of the mat. When the mat contains cutouts like the ProLite, the foam's primary purpose is serving as baffles, ones which can allow air to move between them but not down.
Down is comparably very lightweight. So you'd leave just enough foam to maintain a nice near-flat mat surface, and by filling in the holes with down, you would have the R-value of a pad with no cutouts at a significantly reduced weight. To get a winter-worthy mat I think you would need a 2" thickness, or perhaps even 1.5", so it would be a nice thin mat unlike blow-up mats. Each cutout containing a bit of down would keep it from moving around and ending up with cold spots, as well as the fact that when inflating, air moves dispersed all throughout rather than down certain channels.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 13:48
Some stats to think about:
1" thick ProLite: R2.4, uniform
1" thick Women's ProLite: R3.0, I think only for the torso section. The foot and head sections are still R2.4 in either case.
1.5" thick ProLite Plus: R3.4
1.5" thick Women's ProLite Plus: R4.2
The Women's line is really a misnomer and unfair to anyone who might want a mat with the same warmer/heavier design in a different length. They don't fit women who are on the taller side (like my wife). Anyways, from these numbers, we can see that they increase the R-value by R0.6 for an inch thickness or R0.8 for an inch and a half by halving the number of cutouts.
So it seems reasonable to assume that with NO cutouts, you would get the following R-values:
1" thick: R3.6
1.5" thick: R5.0
We can investigate some other Therm-a-Rest products to evaluate that assumption:
1" thick Trail Scout, no cutouts: R3.4
2" thick BaseCamp, no cutouts: R5.0
I am not clear on what the difference is in foam for the above products (if actually any). Therm-a-Rest specs indicate the Trail Scout to use "Solid PU Foam", and the BaseCamp to use "Expanded PU Foam". Perhaps the BaseCamp has a lower R-value per inch as a result.
Anyways, to support what I was saying earlier, if the cutouts were filled with down (which would allow them to be even bigger or higher in count without reducing warmth at all), then you could have an R5.0 mattress no thicker than 2" and perhaps closer to 1.5", without weighing the 3lb 3oz of the BaseCamp.
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 14:32
On the flipside though...
Neo Air X lite is 3.3 for 2.5" of nothing.
Women's Xlite is 3.9 for 2.5" of nothing.
Xtherm is 5.7R for 2.5" of nothing (at a 4 oz or less penalty.)
Nothing lighter than nothing :D
What is interesting to me... what do they do to get (a relatively large) extra .6R (equivalent to an 1/8" foam pad) in the women's Xlite.
That was my pad of choice for a long time because of the R value and no leg drop in a small.
Not to blow off your points... I simply don't know enough about foams to say. And as far as I can tell, regardless of fill, it's about trapping air with the least amount of movement. Primaloft works better than down at lower temps at half the loft because it traps say thousands of air pockets vs. hundreds. I think the foams work on the same principal with the open cell foams used in the self inflators being air permeable (like a sponge) vs. the closed cell foams.
To an extent... if you have too much "stuff" the stuff takes up space that could be filled with air. I think that's a bit of the balance you are seeing in how much foam to cut out. Down works best because it makes the most loft with the least "stuff". But the less stuff you have the less structure.
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/Therm-A-Rest/Mattresses/Fast-And-Light/EvoLite-Plus/product
A neo air with foam inflation assist... same R value as xlite. So the foam is doing little for warmth...
However this concept, filled with down, would be much warmer indeed. That said...
This is R3.2 and 1lb 3 oz before you filled it with down.
The xped downmat is 5.7 R and 2lbs. (seems right without running the numbers... I use about 6-10 oz of down in my UQ's)
the Xtherm is R5.7 and 1lb 4 oz... nothing is still lighter than down. :)
But the down filled EVOlite would be warmer in a hammock... but offer no improvement on the ground.
I don't think you could cut the height down any below 2.5" or so... as you wouldn't have enough loft to insulate.
1.5" of down is about a 40* bag, which is about 3CLO, which is about R2.64.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 14:56
On the flipside though...
Neo Air X lite is 3.3 for 2.5" of nothing.
Women's Xlite is 3.9 for 2.5" of nothing.
Xtherm is 5.7R for 2.5" of nothing (at a 4 oz or less penalty.)
Not trying to compete with blow-up mattresses, trying to reduce weight and increase warmth in the self-inflating mattress market. They are totally different animals from a comfort and convenience standpoint, and a thinner profile offers certain advantages too (like keeping your down bag farther away from sloping tent walls covered in condensation). My wife and I both agreed after trying a few that blow-up mattresses sucked for summer use (personal opinions only, certainly a lot of folks are happy with them!), but we enjoyed the feeling of self-inflating mattresses. That said I cannot find a self-inflating mat in existence that is both warm enough for winter use and light enough for me to consider acceptable to carry. Obviously if your goal is lightest weight above all else, blow-up mats cannot be beat. However backpacking equipment is full of niche markets, and you see a lot of self-inflating mattresses sold and out on the trail.
Nothing lighter than nothing :D
Technically, Nothing is actually the same weight as nothing, not lighter. Maybe even slightly heavier depending on the materials used due to the large size of the capital 'N'. :P
Primaloft works better than down at lower temps at half the loft because it traps say thousands of air pockets vs. hundreds.
In that case it might be a better idea to fill the small cutouts with small pieces of primaloft, adhered to both the top and bottom layers the way Exped does in their Synmats. That said, I'm not sure if this is universally true, because Downmats deliver a much higher R-value for the same thickness as the Synmats which use Primaloft.
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/Therm-A-Rest/Mattresses/Fast-And-Light/EvoLite-Plus/product
A neo air with foam inflation assist... same R value as xlite. So the foam is doing little for warmth...
However this concept, filled with down, would be much warmer indeed. That said...
This is R3.2 and 1lb 3 oz before you filled it with down.
1lb 9oz for a large, probably around 1lb 12oz for a large rectangular. Add say 4oz of down to that and you are at 2lb. That's more than a pound lighter than the BaseCamp and should deliver the same R-value, which is the point I'm trying to make. You could make something that has all the attributes of a self-inflating pad (whether you consider them advantages or not is a matter of perspective), at a pretty significant weight reduction.
The problem with the EvoLite Plus foam design is that it's basically one big air pocket, so down could shift around in there adversely over time.
I don't think you could cut the height down any below 2.5" or so... as you wouldn't have enough loft to insulate.
The BaseCamp is 2.0" thick and delivers adequate warmth (R5.0). I don't think replacing some of it's foam with down would reduce the R-value, assuming you used the ideal amount of down to fill the space and deliver maximal warmth.
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 15:26
The problem with the EvoLite Plus foam design is that it's basically one big air pocket, so down could shift around in there adversely over time.
The BaseCamp is 2.0" thick and delivers adequate warmth (R5.0). I don't think replacing some of it's foam with down would reduce the R-value, assuming you used the ideal amount of down to fill the space and deliver maximal warmth.
On the evolite... if you overstuffed you wouldn't have much, if any down shift. Especially in that relatively static environment. If you simply fill a box with down and eliminate air movement it stays put. The only reason for all the baffles in bags is that the shell isn't rigid and that we move around. The little bit of bounce you make moving at night might create a temporary disturbance but it would settle back pretty quick. We had some long discussions on overstuff at HF last winter so I'd feel pretty confident that if you had the right amount of fill it would stay put enough to make little difference. And it was discussed that while it wasted weight and money, overstuffing had little effect on warmth in reasonable ranges and can occasionally increase warmth.
Wrapping my head around (or away from) loft was hard. Down is loft. Synthetic is CLO. Rvalue (foams in this case) is thermal resistance. All different. They all involve thickness of material but don't work equally.
Add in the different sub-properties of each and it gets worse. (800vs900FP, PLG vs Apex, or one foam vs. another)
The foam by mail we were looking at-
R5 would be 1.25" at the thermal resistance value of .25.
R5 in PLGold would be 5.68 CLO. A hair over 6 oz of insulation per sy or roughly 1.25-1.5" as the 3oz is about .625" thick.
Where it's tricky is the next step... I call my 6 oz PLG bag 25* But that's debatable.
zpacks chart, based upon the BPL chart- would call 2" of loft 25* http://www.zpacks.com/quilts/down_loft.shtml
So R5 in "solid" down would be 2" thick. I don't know enough to say that foam would add or subtract from that, but feel good saying you'd have to stick close to 2" thick if down was the primary insulator.
At 1.5" you're at 40* and back to about 3 oz. of PLG= 2.76 CLO= R3.13 or 3/4" of foam.
I don't know the values for the foams Trest uses but I have to imagine they are much lower than the good CCF as you noted in the Basecamp.
2" of the foam by mail stuff would be R8.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32543&d=1446740249&thumb=1
Not Zombie brains but an Osage Orange. You can eat the seeds if you can remove them from the rest of the fruit. Taste something like sunflower seeds. The wood of Maclura is very ornamental, resistant to rot, and strong so is used by some artisans for bowls, sculpture, etc fence posts, hedges, and in bows replacing yew wood for this purpose.
I actually didn't Google that just now. I remember wondering what they were from my interests in them when I first saw them about your son's age in NJ so looked it up back in the day in a book. Remember books?
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 15:41
LOL, when you're 4 (and occasionally get to play Plants vs. Zombies on mommy's phone) they are ZOMBIE BRAINS.
After that they are fun to chuck into the canal and make big splashes.
Didn't know about edibility, I'll have to crack one open next time.
Never tried making bug dope from them but I hear that's on the list too.
I know of them initially from your fellow NJ resident Tom Brown for bow making.
They are common enough around here as at one point farmers were into putting them up as windbreaks at property lines.
I know no google foo you... hence your anticipated appreciation of the zombie brains.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 16:17
We had some long discussions on overstuff at HF last winter
What is HF?
Wrapping my head around (or away from) loft was hard. Down is loft. Synthetic is CLO. Rvalue (foams in this case) is thermal resistance. All different. They all involve thickness of material but don't work equally.
Add in the different sub-properties of each and it gets worse. (800vs900FP, PLG vs Apex, or one foam vs. another)
Indeed! It's enough to make you go mad. Also different manufacturers have their own methods of assigning R-values to mats, there is no standard for it, which is why I think TaR can get away with advertising the R-value of just the torso portion on the women's models. Nemo attempts to be more honest by not advertising R-values, but that makes them difficult to compare. They advertise minimum temperature ratings but this also isn't standardized. There needs to be a standard like there is for temperature ratings on bags.
Want another variable? How firmly you have blown up either a blow-up or self-inflating mattress. Even body weight has an effect on any pad including CCF, though not always the way you might expect - you might expect that a heavier body may compress the pad more and reduce the insulation, but in fact it may spread out that weight more evenly than a bony fellow such as myself. Also for the same reason which way you lie. I can tell you that if I deflate a ProLite Plus to ideal comfort, when on my side my hip bone and shoulder are the closest to the ground and become cold spots, ones that I do not notice with the same amount of inflation when sleeping on my back, which distributes the weight better. That said maybe having an air gap between the pad and your back doesn't feel as warm as letting a bit of air out and having more of the mattress up against your skin...hard to say.
Anyways, variables abound!
The foam by mail we were looking at-
[...]
I don't know the values for the foams Trest uses but I have to imagine they are much lower than the good CCF as you noted in the Basecamp.
2" of the foam by mail stuff would be R8.
Self-inflating mats use open-cell foam which is totally different from CCF.
Care to take a guess at which foam I could buy that would be equivalent to what TaR uses in the ProLite? Also what sort of fabric can I buy from where that would be airtight and heat-sealable at the edges? I'd love to take a stab at making my own pads.
I opted to get 4oz overfill when I ordered a custom 0˚ quilt, which in theory may make it a -10˚, but my reason for doing it wasn't that - it was because higher fillpower down tends to loft less after a while before you can get around to laundering it (and as it ages), and this should offset that and allow me to go for longer between washes and extend the useful life a bit (hmm...maybe if it starts feeling too warm in the summer I can just roll it in a bit of mud and dry it out to reduce the loft...hehe j/k), and also because I had the bag made using a heavier fabric for the outer layer than the default one, which will also reduce the loft a little.
What makes down in sleeping mats interesting is that it has no resistance (e.g. material weight) to full loft, though body weight compresses it more the less air you have in the mat.
The Nemo Tuo manages to deliver approximately R7.0 with 2.3" of open cell foam and horizontal cutouts, by having a layer of material in the middle and two separate air chambers. It's rather heavy though at 3 lbs 12 oz for a rectangular large.
Just Bill
11-05-2015, 17:34
HF is Hammock Forums- the sister site to this one...
Where the people are nicer, the do it yourself crowd is strong and active, weight isn't very important, and folks really dislike sleeping on the ground.
BPL is good for techincal stuff, HF is very helpful and active, and WB is somewhere in between.
And careful if you go to HF because next thing you know you'll owe Dutch $500 and be on your 10th double bridge hammock debating UQ's and not foam any longer as you and the family have taken to the trees!
You're on your own with making a pad.
I'm a lightweight gear minded guy and I snore like a bear so my wife and I don't sleep in the same bed. So stuff like 3+ oz per yard heat sealable stuff or double wide pads haven't been on my radar for a long time.
But it is educational to talk through, hear different points of view and approaches to different needs and goals. So thanks!
I've stolen some SUL stuff from BPL, some practical stuff from HF, and blended them together to get some good results and I wish you the same.
One of these days... I have a small pile of notes and posts from some of the HF and BPL discussions on the different values, insulations, etc. And having a conversation like this helps me work through it again and learn even more. I'm getting closer to sorting enough of it out to make a general use article, with some science,, some MYOG and some attempts to wander into that grey area where things get fuzzy.
Hopefully I can scam Another Kevin, Odd Man Out, and some other smart folks into reviewing my stuff. I'm a carpenter, so I build stuff, and kinda get stuff, but the tricky stuff gets away from all of us as you've noticed. Even the gold standard EN ratings aren't as cut and dry as they seem when you actually look hard at them.
Just Bill
11-09-2015, 11:04
Pooper... need some more nights for sure... but the Xtherm had me waking up chilled at 29*.
Started out at 40* and the pad has been doing well the last week of mid thirties evenings but it's looking like the 20* I had hoped to get isn't going to happen in the air.
Guess I'll see how the rest of the week goes as we have a stretch of 30 ish temps.
Just Bill
11-17-2015, 10:22
Just in case anyone else stops by this...
NeoAir crapped out at 40*- easy.
The Xtherm has been a bit of a disappointment... I've since had four nights below 30. Like clockwork at 28/29 degrees it's over.
Just to be sure, I pulled out a 5* mummy bag (instead of my 25* TQ) to make sure that wasn't the issue... still no go, I was able to doze but woke up again to chilled under insulation.
I've since picked up a reflectix pad (9 ounces for one cut to match an Xtherm) and have been doing well with that. No below 30's temps though in the last week.
If the reflectix proves to work well, I'm thinking I can go back to the neo-air and give up on the Xtherm.
You could always go to ground to zero with the xtherm... but adding a $200 pad just to get from 40* to 30* is not worth it IMO.
NeoAir plus reflectix is 1lb 9oz, Xtherm alone is 1lb 4 oz so no big advantage there when you can add the reflectix for $20 or less.
I'm guessing you could take that ground combo close to 10* as I've done the neo-air alone into the mid 20's.
poolskaterx
11-17-2015, 22:28
It probably does not matter since I am not a hammock user (ok, I used one once last summer and it was pretty sweet...) but I'll throw my "pad" experience in. I used to get cold at the mid 20's but since I switched to the xtherm over my previous pad, a Core Lite 1.5 (R3.2) I can now go into the teens comfortably. Sleeping with just a groundsheet and my mat separating me from packed snow/ice; of course this is just my experience with my sleep system. Sure look forward to hearing how your experiments work out. Good luck.
Kaptainkriz
11-17-2015, 23:08
Thanks for this, I was looking at the Xtherm. Although I'm a ground dweller now, I've been intrigued by the hammock crowd. At 48, the ground is harder than I remebered it 25 years afo. :)
Just in case anyone else stops by this...
NeoAir crapped out at 40*- easy.
The Xtherm has been a bit of a disappointment... I've since had four nights below 30. Like clockwork at 28/29 degrees it's over.
Just to be sure, I pulled out a 5* mummy bag (instead of my 25* TQ) to make sure that wasn't the issue... still no go, I was able to doze but woke up again to chilled under insulation.
I've since picked up a reflectix pad (9 ounces for one cut to match an Xtherm) and have been doing well with that. No below 30's temps though in the last week.
If the reflectix proves to work well, I'm thinking I can go back to the neo-air and give up on the Xtherm.
You could always go to ground to zero with the xtherm... but adding a $200 pad just to get from 40* to 30* is not worth it IMO.
NeoAir plus reflectix is 1lb 9oz, Xtherm alone is 1lb 4 oz so no big advantage there when you can add the reflectix for $20 or less.
I'm guessing you could take that ground combo close to 10* as I've done the neo-air alone into the mid 20's.
Just Bill
11-18-2015, 01:33
On the ground... many reliable folks report going to zero and below with an Xtherm.
Pound for pound I can't imagine a better choice. I have used my Xlite to the mid 20's personally, after that I've always just added a pad to get to zero and save the dough.
In the air, life is different. Thus far I've noted about a 20* average loss of performance in almost all insulations when used underneath.
I was hoping the xtherm would get to an easy 20* in the air...but the pure air pads clearly suffer worst of all. It makes perfect sense from a science side... but guess I had to find out for myself just to be sure.
Most hammock folks aren't pushing pads for good reason, UQ's are far better in most rigs, especially as you approach freezing.
I suspect that a filled(synthetic or down) air pad would perform similar to an UQ- roughly 20* lower than it's ground rating.
Foam is the superior insulation, but bulk and comfort are the reasons it's not really preferred by many.
There are many who could argue the point... but as a ground and air guy at this point it's much easier to stay on terra firma when you approach 20*. Especially if you care even a little about weight or bulk.
But it is comfy up there...
Thanks for this, I was looking at the Xtherm. Although I'm a ground dweller now, I've been intrigued by the hammock crowd. At 48, the ground is harder than I remebered it 25 years afo. :)
A properly inflated Xtherm makes the ground disappear. 2 consecutive months on the floor on my Xtherm with an Exped Air Pillow. Never slept better.
Silent too.
Just Bill,
Thanks for your diligent investigative reporting. As a confirmed ground sleeper, you've proven that the Xtherm was the right choice for me. My own lengthy trial run indoors has proven to me that the Xtherm Large is most comfortable. The Internet myth about noise is bogus.
Cheers!
Wayne
Just Bill
11-18-2015, 10:16
Wayne-
I'd have to agree... I've always been too busy sleeping soundly to notice any noise. :)
I can't comment much on the first generation of the pad, but having owned two second gen (large and womens) and now two third gen (xtherm and small)
It appears that the rumors of the crinkle have been greatly exaggerated.
I'd suggest folks who notice it in the store spend a week on the floor before returning the pad. Hell the Copper Spur UL2 I just got for the boy and I was crinkly just out of the box, a few nights for everything to settle out likely eases out the stiffness and tension in the fabrics.
Bill,
Agreed! I'm asleep on the Xtherm before the sound waves can reach my ears.
My Xtherm Large is the latest version purchased in 2014. Lying on my back in the middle of the Xtherm, I have rolled left & right. Silent. The only place I notice any crinkle is the vertical section of the perimeter. If I squeeze the sides I get a bit of crinkle sound. In use, the only time that sound happens is when I roll on or off the pad. The sound lasts about half a nano second. I can't speak for the Xlites. I would also expect that a sleeping bag would muffle any sounds that may occur in use.
And it came in at exactly the advertised weight. My Alpinlite is a 1/4 ounce lighter than advertised. A first in both cases. How often does that happen?
Wayne
Kaptainkriz
11-18-2015, 20:08
Now you did it...I'm just going to have to get one of these...
Whiteblaze rocks :)
A properly inflated Xtherm makes the ground disappear. 2 consecutive months on the floor on my Xtherm with an Exped Air Pillow. Never slept better.
Wayne
I hope you have the same experience with the Xtherm.
REI 20% off coupon until November 23. Good luck.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
poolskaterx
11-18-2015, 23:50
Kaptainkriz (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/59330-Kaptainkriz) you will love it if you are looking for a warm pad; I found I was overinflating it the first few uses, try it with a little less air for a little "squish" and it is really nice.
Kaptainkriz (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/member.php/59330-Kaptainkriz)you will love it if you are looking for a warm pad; I found I was overinflating it the first few uses, try it with a little less air for a little "squish" and it is really nice.
You will also love it at 75+ degrees. My main concern before purchase was that the Xtherm would be too hot in warm weather. NOT TRUE!
As for inflation, less is better. Way better. With any air mattress, and I've been using them since the 1970s, you only need enough air to keep your bottom from barely touching the ground when you sit on it. Just like a regular mattress, you want it to give under your hips. Keep letting air out until you get it right. You'll know when it's right.
Wayne
Just Bill
11-23-2015, 14:48
The Xtherm and reflectix combo died about 12 degrees or so... Low was around 10, and I was able to finish the night by turning over a few times the last few hours... but seems about it.
I'm going to try a wider reflectix pad that wraps the sides of the Xtherm. I just have a 24" piece now and I can feel the cold bleeding in along the sides. So I'm going to try bumping that up about 6-7"in width to cover the full bottom and the exposed uninsulated sides of the xtherm.
Starting to get a bit silly though... 1lb 4 ounce xtherm and roughly 12 ounces of reflectix is getting up there and still not verified at zero.
A large size xped downmat 7 is under 2lbs 7oz and should do ya even in the air. (I need the large width in my hammock)
Also if the reflectix works as I suspect... you could probably do just as well with a regular neo-air xlite and skip the xtherm all together.
saltysack
11-23-2015, 20:52
The Xtherm and reflectix combo died about 12 degrees or so... Low was around 10, and I was able to finish the night by turning over a few times the last few hours... but seems about it.
I'm going to try a wider reflectix pad that wraps the sides of the Xtherm. I just have a 24" piece now and I can feel the cold bleeding in along the sides. So I'm going to try bumping that up about 6-7"in width to cover the full bottom and the exposed uninsulated sides of the xtherm.
Starting to get a bit silly though... 1lb 4 ounce xtherm and roughly 12 ounces of reflectix is getting up there and still not verified at zero.
A large size xped downmat 7 is under 2lbs 7oz and should do ya even in the air. (I need the large width in my hammock)
Also if the reflectix works as I suspect... you could probably do just as well with a regular neo-air xlite and skip the xtherm all together.
Was this in a hammock or on ground...cold at 12*?
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Just Bill
11-23-2015, 20:59
Was this in a hammock or on ground...cold at 12*?
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Hammock
I didn't want to squander the cold night of testing- but I don't think I'd have any issues on the ground at those temps.
Xtherm is great on the ground which is why I was hopeful using it in the air.
saltysack
11-23-2015, 21:08
Ok thx...was hoping that....I just bought one for winter...love my large xlite so figured I'd try the xtherm. I get cold under 30* on the xlite so wanted lil more warmth. Thx for the quilt stacking info. Plan to try my 45* JRB Sierra stealth over my 15* marmot helium bag or let my son use over his 20* north face tigger on our fht hike this December.
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Just Bill
11-23-2015, 21:18
fwiw- I haven't personally spent a night on the ground with it, lol.
I usually add a light foam pad to my xlite to get closer to zero. But dozens here and plenty of other folks I know of who would call it zero in the Xtherm no problem...
Thank Peter at EE for the quilt stacking stuff- I'm just seconding his info.