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View Full Version : Down vs. synthetic quilt for sumer use?



JumpMaster Blaster
10-30-2015, 11:10
I was all set on getting a 40 degree down quilt (from Enlightened Equipment) for the summer. Then I realized they sell synthetic quilts as well. After reading about oils & sweat getting on the bag, I'm skeptical about using dowm.

"Down"side- synthetic is heavier (23.4 oz) BUT cheaper ($170) compared to the down quilts (15.8-21.5 oz) ($230-270).

I'm worried about summer rains and condensation- I spent a rainy weekend last year on Roan and my Kelty Cosmic 20 was moist/damp after the first night- that thing seemed to suck up every drop of moisture from the air.

Suggestions?

bigcranky
10-30-2015, 11:35
Been using a down 40F quilt for several years, including a pretty darn wet Long Trail thru. Never had a real problem with it, and I do prefer down for sleeping. You're going to get oils and sweat on any sleeping bag or quilt -- down is more resistant to that sort of thing than many people realize. It's actually more of a problem in the winter when your insensible perspiration gets inside the bag and condenses.

saltysack
10-30-2015, 12:02
+1 for down...45* Sierra stealth from JRB has been good for summer but with that said I hate hiking in the heat!!!! I luv winter hikes!!!


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4eyedbuzzard
10-30-2015, 12:27
Down is not only lighter, but also more compressible than synthetic filling, taking up less room in your pack. If properly cared for, down will typically lose less loft after repeated use over the years than synthetic filled bags/quilts as well. Neither will insulate you if they get really wet, so the care needed to keep them dry while on the trail is the same. Worried about getting the bag soiled? Both will obviously get soiled with use. To minimize soiling, wear lightweight PJ's (silk or bamboo are pricey but very comfortable in summer) as you can move around in them better than a bag liner which tends to twist up around your body.

And yeah, everything comes to equilibrium with the environment, if damp and humid out, your gear will be damp. No way around it. Try to let you bag "air out" in the morning before breaking camp as well.

Vegan Packer
10-30-2015, 13:39
I have an Enlightened Equipment Prodigy 50F Quilt, which is the synthetic model. I have hand washed (by completely immersing it, so that it is completely soaked through) after trips, squeezed out the water after the rinse, and it dries really quickly, like overnight, or certainly in less than a day. I am still amazed at how quickly it dries after a complete soaking. One great thing about the synthetic is that I wash it after every trip, and I don't have to worry about babying the quilt or skipping washing it, due to worrying about excessive washing ruining it. I start off each new trip with a new, clean quilt!

I got the regular 10D fabric covering. I have had a few times where I have bumped against something in my tent during really humid conditions, and some drops of water have fallen on it. If you get to it right away, the water doesn't really have time to soak in, but even when this did happen, the quilt dried super quickly. I have had zero issues with humid air causing dampness.

I got mine with black color on both the inside and outside. I did this so that, in the event that I do have to dry it while in the field, the black will heat up and dry more quickly when I place it out in the sun. Again, since it has been so great with moisture and humidity, I have never had to actually do this.

I have no issues with spots that don't have coverage, such as the insulation bunching in one area. I don't use down products, since I am vegan, so I can't directly comment on down, but I hear that this can be an issue.

My only mistake was not getting the 40F version, and I am probably going to order that before next season. When I had my 50F quilt in 48F humid conditions, I still felt cold, even with thermals on underneath, so I am going to keep the 50F for warm conditions, and then I'll use the 40F once it gets down below about 55F.

JumpMaster Blaster
10-30-2015, 17:11
I have an Enlightened Equipment Prodigy 50F Quilt, which is the synthetic model. I have hand washed (by completely immersing it, so that it is completely soaked through) after trips, squeezed out the water after the rinse, and it dries really quickly, like overnight, or certainly in less than a day. I am still amazed at how quickly it dries after a complete soaking. One great thing about the synthetic is that I wash it after every trip, and I don't have to worry about babying the quilt or skipping washing it, due to worrying about excessive washing ruining it. I start off each new trip with a new, clean quilt!

I got the regular 10D fabric covering. I have had a few times where I have bumped against something in my tent during really humid conditions, and some drops of water have fallen on it. If you get to it right away, the water doesn't really have time to soak in, but even when this did happen, the quilt dried super quickly. I have had zero issues with humid air causing dampness.

I got mine with black color on both the inside and outside. I did this so that, in the event that I do have to dry it while in the field, the black will heat up and dry more quickly when I place it out in the sun. Again, since it has been so great with moisture and humidity, I have never had to actually do this.

I have no issues with spots that don't have coverage, such as the insulation bunching in one area. I don't use down products, since I am vegan, so I can't directly comment on down, but I hear that this can be an issue.

My only mistake was not getting the 40F version, and I am probably going to order that before next season. When I had my 50F quilt in 48F humid conditions, I still felt cold, even with thermals on underneath, so I am going to keep the 50F for warm conditions, and then I'll use the 40F once it gets down below about 55F.

That's an interesting take on things, thanks for the feedback.

shaq67225
10-30-2015, 19:16
During the summer, your base weight is usually low anyway because of less clothes and other cold weather gear. IMO It is nice to keep that ultralight trend with a down quilt

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egilbe
10-30-2015, 21:31
I have a 30* prodigy. I've never felt the need to wash it, but then again, I'm omnivorous.

MuddyWaters
10-30-2015, 21:56
my 40F quilt is overkill for summer. But its so light, with footbox open air circulates underneath and is cooler and more versatile than a heavy synthetic is. For a premium price, you can have a 12 oz quilt.

garlic08
10-30-2015, 22:30
I got an EE down quilt for a summer trip a few years ago and it ranks as one of the best gear purchases I've ever made. One thing I didn't expect was how clean it stayed, even in extremely sweaty and dirty conditions. Since I never actually slept on it, the quilt stayed very clean. I never had to launder it, especially with a few minutes of direct sunlight on the black backing every once in a while.

My experience in 100% RH condensing fog weather is that it takes about four days to get the quilt or bag damp enough to need to be dried, either in sunshine, next to a large fire, or in a commercial dryer. If the sun comes out for a few minutes in the afternoon with a breeze, I take a break and get the quilt out and it's a little better that night.

Just Bill
10-30-2015, 22:34
Down is not only lighter, but also more compressible than synthetic filling, taking up less room in your pack.
Sorta... :D
For what you can buy today, yes. For what you can hopefully buy in the near future...

Forgive me posting a PDF, I'm no good at uploading PICS.
If you do it right, at 40 degrees or so.. synthetic is equal to or better than down on weight, warmth and packability. On cost you're talking almost half.
Yar, there are ways to take care of your down, and it can last you a lifetime, but PL Gold retains almost all of it's warmth when wet and you can't tear a baffle and loose fill.

Just Bill
10-30-2015, 22:44
my 40F quilt is overkill for summer. But its so light, with footbox open air circulates underneath and is cooler and more versatile than a heavy synthetic is. For a premium price, you can have a 12 oz quilt.
Roughly apples to apples- :)

That premium down quilt from our pal Joe in Florida- comparible size is the wide/long. In 40* that lists at 13.6oz, and packs to 5.5" x12" for $380.
That premium dream synthetic quilt from some weirdo in Chicago- 45*, 13.5oz, packs to 4" 12" and hopefully ships for free at $170.

Just Bill
10-30-2015, 22:53
Not planning on doing them commercially, but I've done 4 now for speed hikers that clocked in at 50 degrees or so (pushed to mid 30's in one personally).
Those have been between 11.2 and 12.75 ounces and Nalgene sized.

At the warm temps...the shell weight and baffles of even premium down wash against synthetics. Some time about 34-40 you're even...below 20* it's no contest and down is better overall. Around zero synthetic doesn't work IMO.

egilbe
10-30-2015, 23:09
That weirdo in Chicago likes Primaloft gold over Apex?

Just Bill
10-30-2015, 23:10
that weirdo in chicago likes primaloft gold over apex?

alot!!!!!!

Just Bill
10-30-2015, 23:12
It is way harder to work with though... that's why you don't see it used often (or at all).
It was only until the Primaloft GOLD came out though that they took the edge from Climbashield.

JumpMaster Blaster
10-31-2015, 00:44
Roughly apples to apples- :)

That premium down quilt from our pal Joe in Florida- comparible size is the wide/long. In 40* that lists at 13.6oz, and packs to 5.5" x12" for $380.
That premium dream synthetic quilt from some weirdo in Chicago- 45*, 13.5oz, packs to 4" 12" and hopefully ships for free at $170.




If "some weirdo from Chi-town" would like someone in Eastern NC to test out a synthetic quilt in 30-50 degree temps this winter, I may know someone who would gladly oblige. $170 is a good price point. :sun

Just Bill
10-31-2015, 12:02
If "some weirdo from Chi-town" would like someone in Eastern NC to test out a synthetic quilt in 30-50 degree temps this winter, I may know someone who would gladly oblige. $170 is a good price point. :sun

:D
I'd recommend the 25* for those temps... but with a bivy, some practice, and the right clothing you could push the 45* into the 30's if you're willing to deal with a few bad nights.

MuddyWaters
10-31-2015, 12:19
:D
I'd recommend the 25* for those temps... but with a bivy, some practice, and the right clothing you could push the 45* into the 30's if you're willing to deal with a few bad nights.

I pushed a 40 to 28 before, without extra clothing just baselayer and light fleece top. It was 34 at 8pm at bedtime, so the temp was cold all night, not just before dawn in early hours.

I was glad for sun to come up so I could start moving. It was the coldest Ive ever slept I think. Raingear wrapped around feet added about a degree or two there, enough to feel. My feet and legs were super cold. Torso was OK.

I have $$$ bags and quilts. My bags are warm to rating or below. I like quilts to be rated below the temp i plan to use them at by 5-10 F.

Venchka
10-31-2015, 12:35
Thanks MW for the real world testing. Unfortunately, everyone is different.
I've prowled around the web enough to know that for every report like yours, there will be several from folks who were "comfortable at 25F nekkid with my 40F Super WallyWorld quilt."
There will also be reports from folks who "Froze at 25F in a WM 10F Vistalite with all of my clothes on including a maxi-puffy down coat and an Xtherm."
You don't know until you try a sleep system yourself.

Wayne



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Just Bill
10-31-2015, 12:46
Roughly speaking... 1.5CLO will get you 10 degrees of warmth.
A somewhat misleading fact about EN ratings is that the test subject wears .5 CLO, (baselayer and light hat) which adds about 3-4 degrees of warmth. So by the old "sleep naked" math, every bag rating is off almost 5 degrees.

The only point being that, generally speaking, a baselayer and light hat are already "In" the bags rating... even piling on clothing I wouldn't expect much past 10*.
As the EE chart shows a bit too, CLO values don't simply add conveniently and the colder you go the less effective layering can be.

But a good bivy (partial VBL) can add 5-10*. A down coat is roughly .5 CLO. A basic chart- http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/clo-clothing-thermal-insulation-d_732.html

Some of the EN rating studies also point to the experience factor of the user being a big factor too. Which explains how one user's perception of warmth can be the difference between a sleepless night and a restorative rest (if not actual sleep) in less than optimal conditions.

MET- the heat output of our individual bodies (cold sleeper vs warm) is the biggest factor and can represent a 20* spread in expected warmth. It is worth noting that EN ratings involve relatively fit 20 somethings who naturally have a higher internal temp than that individual would if tested in their 40's or 50's.

+ hydration, exhaustion level, food in your belly, and even your mental outlook all come into play. Damp vs. dry, windy vs. calm, and environment can all rob you of up to 15*.

Long story short-
Just the right clothing at around 30-40* can get you an extra 5-10*, the right shelter 5-10*, and experience can fill in another 5-10* to allow you to rest when others may not.
Although much below 20* and the natural world and our relatively fragile bodies at rest can only take you so far and it's best not to mess around in life threatening temps.

And until all this makes sense from years of field use... stick with the correctly rated bag and add 5-10* if you're a cold sleeper and/or over 50. ;)

MuddyWaters
10-31-2015, 13:00
Thanks MW for the real world testing. Unfortunately, everyone is different.
I've prowled around the web enough to know that for every report like yours, there will be several from folks who were "comfortable at 25F nekkid with my 40F Super WallyWorld quilt."
There will also be reports from folks who "Froze at 25F in a WM 10F Vistalite with all of my clothes on including a maxi-puffy down coat and an Xtherm."
You don't know until you try a sleep system yourself.

Wayne



Sent from somewhere around here.

True. And it can vary at different times for same person depending on pad, shelter, wind, humidity, hydration, nourishment, fatigue, etc. Even sky exposure vs being under roof makes a big difference.

Some insulating items are over-rated , some are under, and even baffle design, and user down re-distribution before bed or during night plays role too.

However, you will be more comfortable with a little excess insulation usually, than too little.

In my example, i was only a summer ccf pad, about 3/8"

Venchka
10-31-2015, 13:12
Before people take the EN numbers as gospel, they should read the specs for the test. R-5 pad is a big requirement. Double check the company's C to F conversion. I bought a North Face 15F bag last spring. The C degrees EN rating converted to 17F degrees. One of several reasons why I returned the bag. I later bought a WM Alpinlite. The EN rating for the Alpinlite is 16F. Western Mountaineering rates the Alpinlite at 20F. Conservative as it should be.

Wayne


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Just Bill
10-31-2015, 13:15
A met chart for nerds... http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/met-metabolic-rate-d_733.html

Worth noting too-the bigger you are, the more surface area (heat output) you have... one reason women tend to sleep "colder" is simply because they don't have the same skin surface of the average male used in the base math.

For non- nerds... At the end of the day you're a lightbulb in a blanket. A cold sleeper is roughly a 40w bulb, average about 60w, warm sleepers 75w, and experienced sleepers have a dimmer switch which lets them squeeze almost 100w out when needed. Much like your flashlight in the dark, the brighter your bulb the deeper your heat can penetrate the cold.

Your bulb's strength is the base of all the math. Going to bed dehydrated, tired, or hungry all dim your bulb further too...

Just Bill
10-31-2015, 13:17
Before people take the EN numbers as gospel, they should read the specs for the test. R-5 pad is a big requirement. Double check the company's C to F conversion. I bought a North Face 15F bag last spring. The C degrees EN rating converted to 17F degrees. One of several reasons why I returned the bag. I later bought a WM Alpinlite. The EN rating for the Alpinlite is 16F. Western Mountaineering rates the Alpinlite at 20F. Conservative as it should be.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

Marketing tends to trump math, lol.
Eventually the community tends to sort out those folks with generous rounding, which is why reviews are still very helpful despite the individual nature of them.

MuddyWaters
10-31-2015, 13:23
Bodyfat makes huge difference as well. At low bodyfat, im cold in house at 70 F.

Odd Man Out
10-31-2015, 19:54
Worth noting too-the bigger you are, the more surface area (heat output) you have... one reason women tend to sleep "colder" is simply because they don't have the same skin surface of the average male used in the base math...

A slight clarification for you. The key to how warm you feel is your surface to volume ratio. Your volume (mass) determines the rate that you generate heat but your surface area determines the rate of heat dissapation so the smaller your surface to volume ratio is, the better you are at retaining heat. Large people have a small surface to volume ratio which is why larger people tend to stay warmer. This is also why polar species tend to be larger than their equitorial cousins. Geometry also has an effect. A sphere is the shape that has the smallest area to volume ratio. This is why ethnic groups native to cold climates (Inuit) have a rounder more compact body shape than people from equatorial regions (Masai).

saltysack
10-31-2015, 22:46
True. And it can vary at different times for same person depending on pad, shelter, wind, humidity, hydration, nourishment, fatigue, etc. Even sky exposure vs being under roof makes a big difference.

Some insulating items are over-rated , some are under, and even baffle design, and user down re-distribution before bed or during night plays role too.

However, you will be more comfortable with a little excess insulation usually, than too little.

In my example, i was only a summer ccf pad, about 3/8"

Curious about down redistribution....I usually shake my down quilt or bag a few times then throw over top off my tent to air out while I blow up pad and cook..what more is needed? I tend to sleep lil cold...I'm 5'11" 210lbs w fairly low body fat...always sleep in base layer of cap 3 bottom and cap 4 hoody(winter) with beenie...add rain shell and down jacket if cold...


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MuddyWaters
11-01-2015, 03:39
Curious about down redistribution....I usually shake my down quilt or bag a few times then throw over top off my tent to air out while I blow up pad and cook..what more is needed? I tend to sleep lil cold...I'm 5'11" 210lbs w fairly low body fat...always sleep in base layer of cap 3 bottom and cap 4 hoody(winter) with beenie...add rain shell and down jacket if cold...


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Some designs like cross baffles can allow down to shift during night, leaving less on top if you and more at your sides. Overfilling helps prevent this. This is why EE went to lengthwise baffles, in attempt to be able to maintain loft better on top of you with minimal down.

You can shake most of down around in many bags or quilts leaving it not equally distributed. Even in my wm bag it can be moved from bottom to top, achieving higher firmer loft on top when desired

A few ozs of extra down solves a lot of the issues with distribution, as well as helps with loss of loft from humidity etc too.

saltysack
11-01-2015, 09:36
Some designs like cross baffles can allow down to shift during night, leaving less on top if you and more at your sides. Overfilling helps prevent this. This is why EE went to lengthwise baffles, in attempt to be able to maintain loft better on top of you with minimal down.

You can shake most of down around in many bags or quilts leaving it not equally distributed. Even in my wm bag it can be moved from bottom to top, achieving higher firmer loft on top when desired

A few ozs of extra down solves a lot of the issues with distribution, as well as helps with loss of loft from humidity etc too.

Ok...ill have to check out the baffels on my marmot 15 deg helium bag and JRB 45 deg sierra stealth...


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