Air mattress vs UQ in terms of warmth

[ChrisJackson]

All else aside, can an air mattress be as warm as an UQ?

Am going to start carrying both for a couple of months to test, and interested in your experiences.

Am prepping for some trips where a night or two on the ground may be necessary.

Thanks!

[Slo-go'en]

I have limited hammock experience but from that I found a mat inside a hammock doesn't work very well. It's just not the right shape. You also need a side entry hammock, a bottom entry like some of the Hennesys are impossible.

I'm not sure how effective an air mattress like a neo-air would be in a hammock. I have a feeling it wouldn't be too good. A closed cell foam would be better and you could shape the top and bottom edges to better conform to the shape of the hammock.

[gbolt]

I used a pad for quite awhile with my Double Layer hammock to "hold" the pad. I don't feel the air mattress can be as warm as a quilt. Most that try a quilt don't go back. I finally bit the bullet and purchased one and now the pad is really obsolete (except for the smokies). The major reason is that without modifications, a person will "Shift" off of the pad and constantly battle cold spots. With an underquilt, it can be "hooked" on the shoulders and will more easily stay in place matching the angle of lay in a hammock. It forms a better system for taking advantage of the down feathers and fluff of the quilt. I can actually feel the heat difference between no insulation, a pad, and most of all the TQ.

[Son Driven]

UC will never loose any air.

[Rain Man]

All else aside, can an air mattress be as warm as an UQ?

Heavens no! An UQ feels like an electric blanket under you when you first lay in a hammock with one. There's even an acronym for how ineffective a pad is in a hammock: CBS. Or, Cold Butt Syndrome. Anytime you lay on your side, your butt, your knees, anything off the mattress and against the side of the hammock gets cold.

As mentioned, I'm one of those who tried an UQ and will never go back to a pad.

[russb]

CBS is not defined by ineffective pads or by the person moving off a pad. CBS happens with pads and quilts, it simply describes the phenomenon where the persons butt is often the first place where cold is felt, often making an uncomfortable nights sleep. A small piece of ccf pad is a common solution to cbs. While I agree that inflatable pads are not as easy to use due to their low width and high depth, theycan work well with a pad extender. All insulation has their benefits and drawbacks. I use uqs in the summer and closed cell foam in winter. Choose the right tool for the job, not what someone else uses for something different.

[Just Bill]

Chris- somewhat related- http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/114993-Xtherm-vs-Winterlite?p=2015358#post2015358

FWIW- I picked up the Xtherm yesterday... too many issues arising with the Exped models.
Last winter I went the UQ route, and Russb was helpful with his deep winter experience for sure and his "right tool" advice is very solid.

Your base question- "All else aside, can an air mattress be as warm as an UQ?"
Sure. Provided you remember you're in a hammock where everything is more complicated.

If you love your hammock- an UQ does a better job maintaining the "lay" you like. PERIOD.
Introducing a pad changes your lay- for good or better is a comfort issue you have to pick.
For most though, changing the lay is the end of the pad experiment, and very few gathered end hammocks are improved by a pad, the improvement in comfort is undeniable when using an UQ.

Apples to apples there is no difference in warmth assuming you have the correctly rated pad or UQ.
As an aside... knowing you have to (or may want to) go to ground is a massive point "in favor" of a pad.

That said, a pad will never be as warm in the air as it is on the ground- but that also seems to apply to UQ's too. While it sounds weird- I can tell you that X" of down quilt is good to X degrees or warmth on the ground when used as a TQ. But if you take the same X" of down and build an UQ, it will not be as warm. It's just the way things work.

Another way to look at it- the "real feel" or wind chill temp, or whatever you want to call it seems to dictate the warmth needed, where on the ground (assuming a shelter) the actual temp works. 30* night on the ground needs 30* gear... 30* with a real feel temp of 15* needs 15* gear in the air.

While my experience is somewhat limited (100-200 nights)... a ballpark seems to be about 10-20* cooler depending on conditions. My Xlite pad- works fine on the ground to 20*, but about 40* it's done in the air... add a cold windy damp night at the same temp and you may find it failing even sooner. I found the same last winter with Down UQ's... 3" of down up top meant 4" of down on the bottom for example.


Up to about 40*, I have similar or even better sleep with my Neo-Air Xlite.
But picking a pad or UQ at these temps is a comfort, not a warmth choice. By design- One hammock I use works better with UQ, one better with a pad. This is a weight choice, and to be fair- from a pure hammock point of view... the hammock with UQ is lighter and smaller.

Up to about 15* or so-
I just got the Xtherm... but I anticipate that it will bridge the gap and work to these temps.
This also seems to me, roughly the limit of a practical UQ that has no other "help".

After that, I think Russ has the right idea... for all practical purposes the limits of an air pad and regular UQ are reached and you need to add CCF.

My zero degree UQ seemed to crap out about this point last winter in an "extreme" wind, at home and in the field. In fact at the harriman trip last year a few of had a very nasty first night at the top of peak with air temps at zero and lower wind chills. My "bag" was what I would call -10 or even -20 if on the ground, but I couldn't sleep at this exposed site. Without CCF to stop the wind from stripping heat it didn't matter how much loft I had really. So I went to ground with nothing more than my pack and a sit pad and slept warmly. While an extreme night... it was the straw that broke the camels back in terms of calling an UQ ideal.

I don't buy into the wind sock deal at those temps either... it can only do so much for you. Now the HF guys who use the heavy canvas wind breaks have something there... but a 1 ounce layer of Sil doesn't cut the wind enough to prevent the convective stripping of heat around zero. On a relatively calm night maybe, but everytime the wind gusts it robs you of warmth. CCF is the only insulation that stops that cold I think.

My general theory- hot air rises, cold air falls. While I agree it's all insulation... in really cold temps your UQ traps cold air just as well as warm... so the CCF works better. Your heat only penetrates so deep into an UQ. If it's really cold the cold penetrates deeper than your heat output, especially as that heat output all wants to migrate to your TQ, not reverse the laws of physics and settle under you. Much past the first 3" of down... it seems to me you just add trapped air your body can't reach.

CCF gets pretty bulky, though if you're talking deep cold, bring a pulk (sled) isn't the end of the world and the bulk is easier to deal with. It also takes setting up your rig to accommodate all the layers of foam in the complex shape of the hammock via multiple thin layers like Russ uses.

For relatively light and reasonable backpacking volumes though... my hope is the xtherm proves to be a winner in the zero to 40* range. With the caveat that when wind chills or real feel temps plunge that you will need to go to ground. So most of the time you can comfortably hang with one piece of light and compact gear, and for the odd times that conditions are below average- you can hit the deck and conveniently have the most comfortable ground pad in your kit to do so. Many folks report happy sleep well below zero on the Xtherm when used on the ground... likely I'll be one of them as I've been to the 20's in my xlite with no other foam.

We'll see- last winter was UQ's, this winter is pads. But ground/air options and the simplicity of one pad, and one TQ has greater appeal to me, even if I get forced to ground by wind here and there.

Especially as I have a hammock that delivers the same comfort with a pad as without- which is really the crux of the debate for most.

[ChrisJackson]

Thanks ALL!


I was not considering CCF but I am now. I'm going to take this a step at a time, and try to figure out what works and doesn't.


Will begin tests with my JRB Nest (22.5 oz) and my REI Flash Insulated Air Sleeping Pad (17 oz). This is what I have on hand, so a good starting point.


UQ: http://www.jacksrbetter.com/shop/the-nest/
Pad: http://www.rei.com/product/845300/rei-flash-insulated-air-sleeping-pad


A little bit with one, then the other, then...both!


I'll try to get the lay of land after that- and determine if I need to try CCF (I really need a wind tunnel!). I think if I want to try CCF, my first stab will be with the RidgeRest.


All tests will be with a WB Blackbird Single Layer 1.7 and JRB 11' x 10' silnylon tarp.


I was surprised at how comfy the REI Flash pad was in the hammock yesterday morning. But, I only laid in it for 5 minutes. It was just a "will the thing even fit" test.


Very rarely do I lay on my side in the hammock, and only then while reading. I'm a back-sleeper in the hammock so the inflatable may work.


I really, really, really appreciate the knowledge share!

[Just Bill]

That pad- same R value as a Neo-air... so you should be good to around 40* depending on conditions( less when windy, bit more when dead calm)
If you start to get cold... pay attention to your sides. I need a wide pad (24"+) in a gathered end to keep the hammock spread far enough to prevent insulation from being compressed in the TQ. (Think shoulder squeeze but on your insulation). As a back sleeper that may be the first "problem" you encounter. With the vertical baffles on the pad, if you run into any CBS try fully inflating the pad.

That UQ- 2.5" of loft should be 10* on the ground... interesting (for me at least) that JRB rates it as 25-30* as that matches my experience with not getting as much umph out of the down when used below.

So your apples to your apples... comfort aside they should perform fairly evenly if the pad is wide enough for you.

Have fun!

PS- By all accounts- if you go the pad route- the 24" ridgerest (L/wide) or the 40" wide pad from gossamer gear are both good places to start and can be trimmed down easily where needed.

[tagg]

I use a 3/4 length UQ that's good to about 20*, and also carry a CCF (zlite) cut down to the length of my shoulders to mid-thigh. I fold the zlite and put it under my legs for insulation since my UQ isn't full length. I agree that a full length UQ would be the most comfortable option, but I also prefer the option of being able to go to the ground if I need to, and this setup covers me pretty comfortably both ways (at least as far as 3 season camping is concerned). No way you could ever get me to go back to a full length pad and no UQ.

[Ashepabst]

using a pad as underinsulation is maddening unless you have a double layer hammock to hold the pad in place. a CCF pad works great in that situation, but i could not get my exped inflatible (synmat UL) to work comfortably... just doesn't fit right. something thinner like the classic Thermorest self-inflaters may work better, but i haven't tried because it's way heavier than my CCF. and for me the CCF pad alone was only sufficient down to about 45-50*, at which point i'll switch to the UQ. you can extend the temp range of the CCF by adding a little something extra on the sides around the shoulders.

[Bigfoot86]

Underquilt by far. I have had lots and lots of hanging time on and off the trail with both pads and under quiltsare definitely warmer

[andyg]

I have a double layer WB traveler and on the few occasions when I use a CCF pad I keep it on top of the hammock. When it's between the layers it's harder to adjust it, it it doesn't want to lay asymmetrical, instead it tries to follow the banana shape. So my head and feet will end up off the pad.

So so I lay it on top and let my body weight hold it in place.

[andyg]

Yeah, under quilts win by a long shot. If expecting big storms take the tarp with doors, pick your site well, and hang that tarp low and tight. Only reason I use pads is when I take the girlfriend or kid out, and they get the downy goodness

[Deadeye]

I have limited hammock experience but from that I found a mat inside a hammock doesn't work very well. It's just not the right shape. You also need a side entry hammock, a bottom entry like some of the Hennesys are impossible.

I haven't found that to be the case. I've used both Thermarest self-inflating pads (Prolite short) and a Big Agnes inflatable in my Hennessey and my Blackbird. Both worked just fine, plenty comfy, plenty warm. Maybe not as comfy as an underquilt, but try using an underquilt when you want to sleep on the ground!

[ChrisJackson]

To share how it's going/went:

Backyard tests fell by the wayside. Too much life got in the way! So went up to N GA mtns (Rocky and Tray) and spent a pretty leisurely weekend. Friday night I believe got down to ~34F and Saturday night ~37F. Friday was very windy.

32667

Went straight to the Reflectix && AirPad && UQ both nights. Skipped any other permutations. I was very warm. I think the setup could withstand ~-8 more degrees. Pretty happy with it.

[Boo-Yah]

I have had both, I don't think there is much comparison between the two, air-mattress is considerably cheaper and UQ is considerably warmer, lighter, effective. I love my UQ

[fastfoxengineering]

Underquilts are for hammocks. Nuff Said. In all seriousness, I've never met anyone who would trade their underquilt for a pad as bottom insulation UNLESS they had intentions to sleep on the ground as well. And even in that situation, most people I know take the weight penalty and carry a pad as well as an underquilt as they just didn't want to give up the comfort an UQ provides.

To answer your question, hammockers like to experiment. And I'm pretty sure experienced hammock hangers have used pads to single digits comfortably. But... they also own 8 different underquilts. It was in the name of Science.

[andyg]

In my hammocking pad experiments, I found that the thinner and softer the pad the more comfortable. Very different from ground comfort requirements.

[Cadenza]

I think it has a lot to do with WHICH HAMMOCK.

In my Clarks a pad works just fine.
In the Warbonnet Blackbird (which I hate anyway) a pad is a disaster.
In the Dream Hammock Thunderbird (double layer) a pad is OK but it's easy to get partially off the pad.

In all cases, an UQ is warmer. But in mild weather the Clarks with a pad is not a bad way to go. The 3/4 length Thermarest inflatable is simple and quick.

[OldTrailDog]

I think there is a lot to consider for what type of use you intend your hammock for as well as the type of hammock. I have experimented quite a bit with the intend of tackling the AT in 2016. I consider some sort of pad a necessity for going to ground or for shelter dwelling when mandatory (GSMNP). I have a Warbonnet Ridgerunner (WBRR) and a Luke's 90 degree hammock. I have found that my Exped Downmat UL 7 MW works fine in either hammock since they are both double layer. I have been using a variety of systems continuously since before Christmas sleeping in temperatures from 35F to 40F. It is also important to consider what temperatures you plan on using your hammock in. At this point I do not plan on winter camping anymore, although I have a DIY down UQ made from a rectangular sleeping bag that works excellent in lower temperatures. A UQ is warmer, but I like the flexibility of having a pad. Another positive about the pad is it helps with shoulder/foot squeeze if deployed correctly. In the 90 degree hammock it keeps the hammock stretched out, although a UQ simply gives a different sleeping experience and when you get use to adjusting to the stretch and shrink of the hammock as you shift from back to side sleeping it works just fine. The compromise system I will, at this point, be taking on the AT is a Arrowhead Ridgecreek 3/4 UQ in conjunction with a Sea 2 Summit Comfort Light. I simply wrap the UQ around the pad with the pad "foot" toward the hammock head and insert it into the pad pocket. This way I have the warmth of the UQ, the shape forming comfort of the UQ, and go to ground as needed. The S2S inflatable pad deflates into much less space than a CCF and is far warmer and more comfortable on the ground/shelter. The other option that is up for serious consideration is simply taking the Downmat UL 7 MW.

[smokey mtn hiker]

I am new to hammock camping and did a lot of research on equipment. Tried using my thermarest pad first. It worked ok, but not the most comfortable night's sleep. Make sure the mattress is not fully inflated. Invested in the UQ and man what a difference. Very warm and comfortable.

[msupple]

It seems like most folks prefer an UQ with their hammock and I would agree for the most part when they are referring to gathered end hammocks. When used with gathered end hammocks pads just have too much fiddle factor. They tend to shift around and distort even when used with a double layered version. I personally now use a Bridge style hammock, namely the Warbonnet Ridgerunner. I find that pads work perfectly in the Ridgerunner due to it's flat lay. I have the double layer version and have found that all pads and mattresses stay perfectly in place and do not distort at all. They are also very comfortable. I like using pads with it for a couple of reasons. On a long distance hike you may have the time where you need to go to ground or you may simply would like to sleep in a shelter. Nice to have a pad/mattress. I usually use a closed cell type pad with mine as it double as a great sit pad. Finally I don't have to be so concerned about it getting wet. In fact I usually carry mine on the outside of the pack. In general I find bridge hammocks to be much more comfortable than gathered end hammocks. They totally eliminate the dreaded leg lock. There is a slight weight penalty but it's one I'm quite willing to endure.

[Five Tango]

I think it has a lot to do with WHICH HAMMOCK.

In my Clarks a pad works just fine.
In the Warbonnet Blackbird (which I hate anyway) a pad is a disaster.
In the Dream Hammock Thunderbird (double layer) a pad is OK but it's easy to get partially off the pad.

In all cases, an UQ is warmer. But in mild weather the Clarks with a pad is not a bad way to go. The 3/4 length Thermarest inflatable is simple and quick.

I am curious as to why you say the pad in the WB Blackbird is a disaster?I tried one in mine,a 25 inch Thermarest Ridgerest and it was fine although the character of the pad itself was somewhat hard but otherwise satisfactory.It's my warm weather set up while a Dutch Argon Hammock with a Jacks R Better Winter Nest is my cold weather ride.Most people that try down never go back to pads is the impression I get and I would not have a pad in summer but for not wanting to pay for one.Sure would like to have a 3/4 UQ for warm weather as my JRB Nest is overkill then.

[Cadenza]

I am curious as to why you say the pad in the WB Blackbird is a disaster?I tried one in mine,a 25 inch Thermarest Ridgerest and it was fine although the character of the pad itself was somewhat hard but otherwise satisfactory.It's my warm weather set up while a Dutch Argon Hammock with a Jacks R Better Winter Nest is my cold weather ride.Most people that try down never go back to pads is the impression I get and I would not have a pad in summer but for not wanting to pay for one.Sure would like to have a 3/4 UQ for warm weather as my JRB Nest is overkill then.


Because of the "calf ridge" and "foot box" the pad just never lays right.
I confess to generally disliking the WBBB. That hammock gives me severe leg cramps.

On a different note, maybe the thing I hate most about it is the one side entry. That limits the hang options to get the view you want.
For example, let's say I'm trying to hang between two trees near the stream where the bank drops off sharply to the water. I want a view with my head to the left, feet toward the right, and a view to the right. I am forced to enter from the left side which puts entry on the drop off side. Very inconvenient. My only option is to hang with entry to the accessible side and my view is in the wrong direction.

The limited view/hang direction combined with the uncomfortable calf ridge makes this hammock virtually useless to me except as a loaner.

To each his own. I know the WBBB is popular among many people. But i'll take either the Clarks or the Dream Hammock every day. They are both more comfortable and I can enter both from either side.

[maddog5150]

I agree that an UQ is generally better for insulation. (i do love mine)

However, I will add that in a bridge hammock a pad tends to be better than in a GE hammock as it tends to stay where you need it better and that in the bridge you are generally laying in the same spot rather than being across the hammock like you are in a GE.

[WILLIAM HAYES]

hands down an underquilt is the way to go except for the shelters in GSMP where you will need a pad

[Mtsman]

The difference for me was something like this:

After years of trying pads and the like (even several different hammocks) I was O.K. with my final choice saying things like "I guess this will work".

After trying just one UQ in one weekend I was saying things like " I will never go back to pads" or "you will have to pry this UQ from my lifeless kungfu grip"

UQ's work for me. I don't hate on the pad users but I would doubt that they have ever tried a UQ and gone BACK to trying pads. If I did have to play devils advocate and suggest using a pad in a hammock it would only be for three reasons. 1) you are new to hammocks and don't even know if you like to hammock camp (its not for everyone but as long as there are trees around, I will try to be in a hammock) 2) you are REALLY strapped for cash and don't want to invest in your sleep on the trail (although I also think this is a temporary fix as you will spend more in pads trying to get comfy than a UQ once) 3) If you are in a REALLLY wet environment for months at a time with no way to dry out/ keep dry your UQ.

Now, with that said, please realize I am extremely biased as I spent many nights pissed off at pads over the years.

HYOH YMMV

[OldTrailDog]

The difference for me was something like this:

After years of trying pads and the like (even several different hammocks) I was O.K. with my final choice saying things like "I guess this will work".

After trying just one UQ in one weekend I was saying things like " I will never go back to pads" or "you will have to pry this UQ from my lifeless kungfu grip"

UQ's work for me. I don't hate on the pad users but I would doubt that they have ever tried a UQ and gone BACK to trying pads. If I did have to play devils advocate and suggest using a pad in a hammock it would only be for three reasons. 1) you are new to hammocks and don't even know if you like to hammock camp (its not for everyone but as long as there are trees around, I will try to be in a hammock) 2) you are REALLY strapped for cash and don't want to invest in your sleep on the trail (although I also think this is a temporary fix as you will spend more in pads trying to get comfy than a UQ once) 3) If you are in a REALLLY wet environment for months at a time with no way to dry out/ keep dry your UQ.

Now, with that said, please realize I am extremely biased as I spent many nights pissed off at pads over the years.

HYOH YMMV

Or you use both knowing you will be spending nights in mandatory shelters or plan for the occasional go-to-ground nights. That is why I use a 3/4 UQ and a 3/4 Ultralite Thermarest for my feet/shelter/ground insulation.

[Mtsman]

Or you use both knowing you will be spending nights in mandatory shelters or plan for the occasional go-to-ground nights. That is why I use a 3/4 UQ and a 3/4 Ultralite Thermarest for my feet/shelter/ground insulation.
Yeah you nailed me on that one. I am using a 3/4th setup and half a pad right now also. It made since to me also because of some shelter camping on this thru attempt.



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[Cadenza]

I come from Scots-Irish forebears, the same people who settled the Appalachians. These people have been known at times to be fiercely independent and even stubborn.
This may explain the fact that I fail to grasp the concept "mandatory shelters."

It's just too easy to step 75 yards off the trail and disappear.

[Mtsman]

I come from Scots-Irish forebears, the same people who settled the Appalachians. These people have been known at times to be fiercely independent and even stubborn.
This may explain the fact that I fail to grasp the concept "mandatory shelters."

It's just too easy to step 75 yards off the trail and disappear.
It's more about the respect of the rules than the ability to be "independent" for me. I'm not judging anyone for their method of hiking, just stating mine. HYOH YMMV


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[OldTrailDog]

I come from Scots-Irish forebears, the same people who settled the Appalachians. These people have been known at times to be fiercely independent and even stubborn.
This may explain the fact that I fail to grasp the concept "mandatory shelters."

It's just too easy to step 75 yards off the trail and disappear.

Now I understand what the movie "Deliverance" was all about! And probably why my Swiss ancestors have mandatory military service and keep weapons at home ;-)

[VITCHELO]

Both are fine, Pad for value (cheaper). UQ for comfort (will keep you much warmer),

[Uncle Joe]

I slept into the teens one night with an air pad and a piece of Reflectix under me. Windy night too. Did I sleep? Yes. Was I warm? Not really. Next time I plan to have an UQ!

[FossilFool]

I think it has a lot to do with WHICH HAMMOCK.

In my Clarks a pad works just fine.
In the Warbonnet Blackbird (which I hate anyway) a pad is a disaster.
In the Dream Hammock Thunderbird (double layer) a pad is OK but it's easy to get partially off the pad.

In all cases, an UQ is warmer. But in mild weather the Clarks with a pad is not a bad way to go. The 3/4 length Thermarest inflatable is simple and quick.

What's wrong with your WBBB? I'm on the verge of buying 4 hammocks, leaning toward those, so VERY interested. What's better about the Clarks?

thanks.

[FossilFool]

I've decided to hammock on my trip in early May from NOC to Fontana. I'd prefer to use a pad, though from this thread I'm convinced that I should get an UQ. So if I do, do I still use a sleeping bag or just get a top quilt without a sleeping bag?

[Just Bill]

I've decided to hammock on my trip in early May from NOC to Fontana. I'd prefer to use a pad, though from this thread I'm convinced that I should get an UQ. So if I do, do I still use a sleeping bag or just get a top quilt without a sleeping bag?

I would think rolling through the smokies (and most of the AT) it would be durn handy to have the ability to sleep on a pad when needed.

Not all hammocks are comfy with a pad, but many can be. A double layer is a big help IMO. A bridge is almost made for pads.
Most pads are not as warm in a hammock. A neo-air is good to about 20* for me on the ground, but never lower than 40* in the air. That said- on the flipside- if you aren't expecting lows much past 40 it works fine. And on that odd 30* night you can go to ground or hit a shelter up. A neo-air Xtherm is about 20* in the air, zero or better on the ground. Those are the two I have tested the most.

Sounds like you own a pad already, and you're still shopping hammocks? I'd get the hammock sorted out and give it a try with your pad.

I think there is alot to be said for a versatile system for a trail like the AT where you may want or even need to sleep on a hard surface (shelter floor, bald, mountain top, cowboy camp in an open field, hostel overflow, etc.)
An UQ is warmer and more comfortable on the vast majority of hammocks, but if having the extra options makes sense to your style of trip-
There is no UQ that works on the ground.
There are pads that can be decent or even great in the air. (A wide pad 25" in a bridge is more comfortable than an UQ for example)
The one rule of thumb I would not violate- you need a wide pad or an SPE to make it work. Shoving a 20" pad into a hammock is an automatic fail.

Sleeping bag vs top quilt- It's a non issue really- what do you own now?
Top quilt is easier to get into if you were buying from scratch- but a sleeping bag may be more versatile.
In a regular hammock with UQ- your sides are more (or even fully) insulated, so a smaller TQ than you might use on the ground can be used to save a little weight/space.

[FossilFool]

I would think rolling through the smokies (and most of the AT) it would be durn handy to have the ability to sleep on a pad when needed.

Can't argue with that!


Sounds like you own a pad already, and you're still shopping hammocks? I'd get the hammock sorted out and give it a try with your pad.

No, I have no equipment at all any more, that's not 30 years old. Looking to get all new gear, x4, as I'm taking my 2 sons and their 80ish year old grand dad. I'm looking at the Blackbird mostly due to reviews and comments here, with the double layer bottom. So a pad is a must, and a sleeping bag is a must, so it'd be nice not to have to shell out even more for the quilts... they are more than i imagined, especially x4.

I doubt it will get below 40 during our trip, the 1st week in May, so i'm thinking I'll just stick with a 30* bag with the blackbirds. If we get serious enough to do sections in colder weather, then we'll go to quilts... Any problem with this logic? I need to make the smartest investment considering the coin i'm tossing!

thanks so much!

[Just Bill]

http://undergroundquilts.com/rentals/default.html

in that case- might want to check that out.
Dream Hammocks and Underground quilt rentals plus tarps... with them your rental converts to a credit if you choose to buy.

You can get grand trunk and other cheaper hammocks for $20 http://www.cabelas.com/product/Grand-Trunk-Ultralight-Hammock/1600652.uts?productVariantId=3309590&srccode=cii_17588969&cpncode=44-161938085-2&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_id=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=03562002&rid=20

REI and others rent gear as well.
So while not ideal- you could rent pads and bags and slap them in some grand trunk hammocks and have a good trip. Worst thing you get stuck with is some grand trunks to hang around camp or the yard.

Tough to pick just one hammock that works well for yourself- even harder to pick one that will work for four different people...
Even tougher to justify dropping a grand or two to gear everyone up when nobody knows exactly what they want.

[FossilFool]

Well, I've settled on 2 WB blackbird double layer and 2 WB ridge runners, and 4 cloudburst tarps. I plan on using pads and a 30* sleeping bag instead of quilts, because there will probably be times when sleeping on the ground is necessary. I'll test out one of each before I go, and will let my wife and daughters test each one too. If one (bridge vs regular) is overwhelmingly better than the other, I may return or sell the less desirable and stick with all four of the one we like.

Normal temperatures in the first week of May on our section will be down into the 40s at night. I'm a little apprehensive about this, seems like others have reported being cold at this temp with a bag and pad combo. Any recommendations for pads with this setup?

thanks!

[Just Bill]

I'd try to get a few practice runs in- there's a learning curve with Hammocks and even a good week with one will vastly improve your experience in them. It's pretty wild how much fiddling and fumbling you'll start with, and how big a difference it makes. Getting structrucal ridgelines, in my opinion, helps alot with getting a consistent setup from night to night.
The best thing about the ground- so long as you pick a decent enough spot- you just lay down and call it a day. Hammocks take some more practice- you can't just pull em outta the box and call it a day.

For the adults- I'd stick with large size pads. If your sons are smaller you could go with a regular pad.

I like air pads, but foamy is much cheaper.

Large size- I've been happy with the Neo-air as it's my go to ground pad anyway. Square,mummy, speedvalve is up to you- just make sure it's the 25" wide.
I'd feel decent at 40* for the regular neo-air, but that is about the limit. after that you need an X-therm.
That said if you're expecting 50"s, with a chance of 40*, you can always go to ground on the odd chilly night and be good with a Neo-Air model into the 30's.

Klymit Static V insulated is an option too- but I didn't personally like it much. Some hammock guys swear by it though. It comes in 30" "luxe" version.
I am testing the Exped Synmat Hyperlite Large now- it's pretty tapered but has some different insulation so may prove warmer in the air than the Neo-Air series... but we'll see.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/trek-and-travel/ridgerest-classic/product
You can get this foamy in a Large width- fine to 40's. Only big plus to this is you might find it locally. But good pad that will work on the ground okay.

http://gossamergear.com/thinlight-hammock-pad.html
Good wide pad you can trim down as needed. Should be fine to 40's as is- but at 60" you may need a small pad for your feet (doubles as sit pad around camp)
The nice thing about this- is you can fold it in half and have a 1/2" thick 19" wide ground pad but still get full coverage in the hammock.

Something like this- http://gossamergear.com/sitlight-sit-pad-group.html

On the cheapie side- you can do the PLUQ or the truckstop windshield (reflectix) pads- but those are crap on the ground and bulky.

[FossilFool]

Thanks Bill! Great info. I'm liking the NeoAir Trekker in large size at the moment. Fairly light, supposedly very comfortable if you have to go to ground. 1lb 7oz, 25"x77". Maybe noisy though, from the reviews. It's $150, though, ouch. My sons are bigger than me, over 6'.

[FossilFool]

Update: My 2 sons and I did the section hike from Fontana Dam to NOC the first week of May. We had Warbonnet hammocks (2 bridge, 1 end gathered). We had Jacks top quilts, but instead of an under quilt we opted for Thermarest Trekker air mattresses in the hammocks (which have a 'pocket' for air mattresses). I was worried that we might have to go to ground, hence the air mattresses. Our last night it was cold and rainy, actually turned to snow in the morning, so was in the 30s. It was impossible to keep on top of the air mattress in either style of hammock, so we got cold on whatever body part of us slipped off the mattress. It's a hard decision to replace the air mattress with an under quilt, but the air mattress/hammock combo was definitely not ideal. The hammocks are definitely more comfortable than sleeping on the ground even with the best lightweight air mattress. It's a tough call!

[andyg]

In high humidity 30s and below as described a combination of pads, quilts and warm clothes is best. Throw in a hammock sock or very well situated tarp and windbreak for good measure. It's no fun to find out your quilts are below their comfort rating, and have your core be cold. 1+ on the GG thinlight pad plus quilts for that.

Hammocking in those conditions is nothing like crawling into a 20 degree bag. The hammock is always going to be much colder.


Update: My 2 sons and I did the section hike from Fontana Dam to NOC the first week of May. We had Warbonnet hammocks (2 bridge, 1 end gathered). We had Jacks top quilts, but instead of an under quilt we opted for Thermarest Trekker air mattresses in the hammocks (which have a 'pocket' for air mattresses). I was worried that we might have to go to ground, hence the air mattresses. Our last night it was cold and rainy, actually turned to snow in the morning, so was in the 30s. It was impossible to keep on top of the air mattress in either style of hammock, so we got cold on whatever body part of us slipped off the mattress. It's a hard decision to replace the air mattress with an under quilt, but the air mattress/hammock combo was definitely not ideal. The hammocks are definitely more comfortable than sleeping on the ground even with the best lightweight air mattress. It's a tough call!

[RabbitHole]

I have limited hammock experience but from that I found a mat inside a hammock doesn't work very well. It's just not the right shape. You also need a side entry hammock, a bottom entry like some of the Hennesys are impossible.

I'm not sure how effective an air mattress like a neo-air would be in a hammock. I have a feeling it wouldn't be too good. A closed cell foam would be better and you could shape the top and bottom edges to better conform to the shape of the hammock.

Pads work fine for warmth but not comfort. Keep the pad way under inflated so it takes a less rigid shape. I'm struggling with the same issue. 30 degree bag and neo air sleep well down to about 25. But it's a rough night in terms of comfort.

[msupple]

When I'm in a gathered end hammock I prefer an UQ. When I'm in my Ridgerunner bridge type hammock I actually have come to prefer my closed cell foam pad as I don't have to worry about keeping it dry and it is multi use. It makes a great sit pad, yoga mat and works in a pinch if I want or need to go to the ground. Being closed cell I don't have to worry about leaks. Pads don't move around or distort in bridge type hammocks.

[Theosus]

I tried a pad and hated it in the Hennessy. Sweaty back and frozen sides. I like the wrap around effect of the quilt MUCH better. Warm and snug all around.

[Uncle Joe]

IMO, a pad is a step to an UQ. Will it keep you warmer than nothing? Yes. But everything I've read says it won't compare to an UQ.

[allmebloominlife]

Cadenza...

I think it has a lot to do with WHICH HAMMOCK.

In my Clarks a pad works just fine.
In the Warbonnet Blackbird (which I hate anyway) a pad is a disaster.
In the Dream Hammock Thunderbird (double layer) a pad is OK but it's easy to get partially off the pad.

In all cases, an UQ is warmer. But in mild weather the Clarks with a pad is not a bad way to go. The 3/4 length Thermarest inflatable is simple and quick.

I'm considering the WBBB....you said the pad is a disaster. Is that because the extra layer doesn't conform to the asymmetrical cut? Does is follow the natural banana shape?

[AfterParty]

I don't mind pads and ordered a revolt 75 that should be getting close!!! I have rigged my rev up and it kinda worked. Sides were floppy obviously. But it made me more comfortable. I also just rigged up a hang on my closed in porch. Has windows on 3 walls. Can't wait to try out the UQ. A women's xlite will stay on a good angle in my explorer which is 11 I believe. I just fill it about half way up. And sleep fine. But I can sleep in the cold.

[Just Bill]

IMO, a pad is a step to an UQ. Will it keep you warmer than nothing? Yes. But everything I've read says it won't compare to an UQ.

On comfort basically... there are some very experienced deep winter folks that have chimed in before that rely on foam.

Basically- a decent enough pile of crumpled up newspaper compares quite favorably to down. You probably just wouldn't pack them.

By far, an UQ is more comfortable in most any hammock.
But warmer has nothing to do with it really.

And on a trail like the AT, where you may want to stay in a shelter, at a hostel, on top of Max Patch, above treeline up north, or simply cowboy camp in an open meadow... it's very difficult to so with an UQ :D

That said-
A neoair is only good to about 45 or so in a hammock. An Xtherm is only good to about freezing. The convection losses are too great for pads working mainly on air.
Foam is unaffected, but does have a hard time conforming to you to the point it may not work. However a Segmented Pad Extender (SPE) solves that.
However an insulated pad like an Exped or Down Mat performs similar in a hammock to how it would on the ground.

So these seem to be the ideal pads for those interested in a more balanced kit that is capable of sleeping wherever they choose.

Personally I like a bridge (easy piesy), or the shortest gathered end you find comfy for pad use so that it doesn't have as much room to skitter away on you.

I'm a fan of the Exped Synmat hyperlite MW- it has a Primaloft like insulation and falls between the NeoAir and Xtherm in specs (15 oz or so with the bag and good to 35 or so)

The other thing to realize- is if it is really cold and you have a pad- going to ground will let you take that pad into colder temps than in the air. As in... say you shot for 35 with your gear but a bad night rolls though at 25*. Just go to ground and you'll get the full value of the sleeping pad once the excessive convective loss is gone.

[AfterParty]

That's good advise for this rookie. I figure if it is too cold with a 40 UQ and a 30 TQ I can throw my xlite on the ground and double my quilts. I have also heard great things about EE temp ratings. So I might have a few cold nights but I'm planning a mid April start and temps should not be below 45 many nights according to the internet in GA.

[stilllife]

gbolt, I'm curious what you mean by "except for the smokies".

[AfterParty]

You have to stay in shelters in the smokies until full then you if thru hiking can set up in close proximity to the shelter. So you need a pad in the smokies making it not obsolete.

[Rantosaurus Rex]

I use a clark UQ but take a bed roll sized piece of reflection with me, It weighs very little and it's cheap. Works great if the wind is blowing to give me a little extra wind protection if needed. Slept in heavy winds with actual temps in the low teens. my bag is a 15 degree bag. but with the UQ and reflectix I was toasty. Also on a night that was blowing wind and sleeting rain with temps in the 20's I was able to set my hammock a little higher and draw my tarp down. Then I was able to sit under my set up and use my reflection as a wind break while I cooked supper. I curved the reflectix around me and ate comfortably. while cooking the heat from my stove actually heating the space up around me inside the reflectix wind break and the UQ above me. Felt like the temp was about 10 degrees warmer than the blowing air on the other side of the wind break. I will never winter hike without my UQ and my cheap sheet of reflectix.

[OneLung]

I have a 20 year old bottom entry Hennessy and a 3/4 thermarest Neo Air that I have used for a cumulative two months time while attempting a thru hike in 2014. I went with the shorter air mattress and a thermarest sleeping bag designed to be used together (sleeping bag has elastic material on the underside of the bag to secure the air mattress to the bag). The bag/air mattress combo takes awhile to get right and it takes practice to sleep on ones side or move around without the mattress slipping.

I like the versatility of being able to use the air mattress in shelters when I'm feeling too lazy or too beat to set up my hammock.

I minimize the cbs by also carrying a hand made poncho liner that I use to stuff around the cold spots...my poncho liner is made of wind proof outer shell and space age insulation that provides warmth when wet...helped on those early days when I didn't get my hammock tarp set up quite right on rainy nights.

I recently bought a regular/full size thermarest neo air for those nights in a shelter...3/4 is cool (I'm 5'7") but I have difficulty getting comfortable with my feet and lower legs dangling off the mattress...haven't tried it yet with the hammock...

[ggreaves]

The Klymit Insulated Static V-Lite (slightly underinflated) is the perfect mattress for a hammock. I've used one (the older Klymit Insulated Static V) for 4 years now. Because of the baffle shape it conforms to the hammock quite well. You won't have cold shoulders with it (23" wide). I have underquilts and I alternate quite regularly between the Klymit and UQ's. I don't even bother putting it between the hammock layers as well. Steer clear of the Neoairs for hammocks. It's a great ground pad but the horizontal baffles don't work well in a hammock. The ridgeline is in your face and the hammock becomes tippy. The 20" wide ones won't keep your shoulders warm and the 25" wide ones are too wide for a hammock.

[TX Aggie]

The Klymit Insulated Static V-Lite (slightly underinflated) is the perfect mattress for a hammock. I've used one (the older Klymit Insulated Static V) for 4 years now. Because of the baffle shape it conforms to the hammock quite well. You won't have cold shoulders with it (23" wide). I have underquilts and I alternate quite regularly between the Klymit and UQ's. I don't even bother putting it between the hammock layers as well. Steer clear of the Neoairs for hammocks. It's a great ground pad but the horizontal baffles don't work well in a hammock. The ridgeline is in your face and the hammock becomes tippy. The 20" wide ones won't keep your shoulders warm and the 25" wide ones are too wide for a hammock.

I was actually looking at this and the new insulated Hammock V. I was worried the Hammock version would be too wide when I have to tent camp with my kids. Thanks for the input on the regular Insulated V, you probably just swayed my decision.

[OMark]

I've too tried the Klymit Insulated Static V-Lite and found it to be probably the best mattress for hammock use. However it still is not the ideal design and moves around a bit if you toss and turn in the night. This can incredibly annoying at 2AM. For underquilts, I think that I find them more warm overall.

[Rhughesnc]

I have the Big Agnes sleep system. 15 degree pad keeps me toasty