CCF pads in the winter [Archive]

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 14:38

I am becoming increasingly frustrated trying to find ideal sleeping pads for winter use.

Self-inflating mats like the Prolite are prone to the internal foam delaminating from the cover fabric and turning into a big bubble. A shame, because they are the most comfortable in my opinion. Are self-inflating mats that do not have vertical punchouts in the foam still subject to this problem? I was thinking about one of these two options:
* Exped SIM Comfort Duo 7.5 (http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/sim-comfort-duo-75-ruby-red) (R-value of 6.4)
* 2x Nemo Tuo 25L (http://www.nemoequipment.com/product/?p=Tuo%2025L) (R-value of approximately 7.0)

Both of those options are quite heavy though at 7.5 pounds. Another consideration, though it is not sold in the USA so I'd have to jump through some hoops to get my hands on one, would be the Exped SIM Comfort Duo 5 (http://www.exped.com/international/en/product-category/mats/sim-comfort-duo-5-ruby-red) (R-value of 4.6, weight of 5.25 pounds). Maybe not warm enough? The nice thing about the Nemo pads is that they would have redundancy if punctured.

Blow-up mats are much more failure prone, with baffle failure, perforation development, valve failure, etc.

Any sort of inflatable pad is prone to puncture, and some sort of failure seems inevitable after regular use for a while. I'd really prefer something foolproof. I also need something that will work in 0 degree temperatures. I also need wide pads of 25" width, to accommodate a 50" wide quilt.

We are plenty comfortable using short RidgeRest Classic pads in the summer, and it is nice knowing that they will never fail. The problem with closed cell pads is twofold:
1. Not a high enough R-value
2. Very bulky

The bulk is not so bad with short 20" wide SOLite pads - but with full-length 25" wide thicker Solar pads, it's significant. I am not sure how to reasonably carry two of these without them becoming a big nuisance. Or worse, 4 of the dang things in the winter to get enough warmth. On the other hand, they are not heavy, so maybe I can manage to strap them on to my pack somehow. Do people generally strap these outside of their rain covers (that's what I did with our short ones), or use larger rain covers which will contain the strapped-on pads?

I found a Hyalite Classic CC pad (http://hyaliteequipment.com/sleeping-pads/view/classic-cc-cc) which claims to have an R-value of 4.0 while being thinner than either of the RidgeRest models, so that would solve some of the bulk problem. Problem is, it is not available in a 25" width (and even the regular size is out of stock). Maybe there is somewhere I can order a basic flat CCF pad in a large size? Maybe even some option for different thicknesses / R-values?

How much R-value do you really need in cold-weather camping? Does anyone use CCF pads exclusively in the winter? Will a RidgeRest Solar (R-value of 3.5) work alright if a very warm quilt is used on top? Does insulation under the legs matter as much or could I combine full-length pads with torso-length second layer pads? Two large RidgeRest Solar pads weigh 3.25 pounds which is half the weight (but also half the R-value) of the self-inflating options mentioned above.

Another thought - what if I sewed a 1.1oz sil-nylon slipcover for the RidgeRest, which would trap air into its pockets...would this increase it's R-value?

Or do I give up, and because they are light, carry noisy XTherm MAX pads, and include an extra one since they are light enough, for the inevitable time when one gets punctured and I can't manage to get the patch right in the field in the cold right away.

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 14:49

Came across the Alps Mountaineering Foam Mats (http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/products/pads/foam-mats/foam-mat) which are available in a large size - no idea of their R-value or fitness for cold though...

Starchild

11-02-2015, 14:53

Your numbers don't add up. 5.5 lbs, and the like.

Please call 1-800- mattress (but leave off the last 's' for SAVINGS!!!)

Yes that's what your post seems to indicate.

(btw: sleeping mats should range in the 8 oz to 2 lb range for al practical US purposes*)

* not including the US Antarctic polar base which may dictate a higher insulation factor.

FarmerChef

11-02-2015, 14:55

Raptelan - I'm not sure what would make you comfortable but I can tell you what has made my wife and I comfortable for what it's worth.

My wife uses a Neoair x-lite on a Z-lite and I just use the Z-lite. My wife sleeps cold and I sleep warm. Between the two of us we share a 20-degree rated Apex quilt I sewed. When it's really cold we crawl under the quilt with a small whole for our faces and less cold more of our head sticks out (a la Ray Jardine). This has kept us warm down to single digits on more than one occasion and plenty of nights in the teens and 20s. Plus, this system was used for all of the AT for me and half of the AT for my wife when she transitioned to the x-lite from the Z-lite. So durability seems to be fine (no patches for her yet).

Hope that helps.

Just Bill

11-02-2015, 14:58

air or ground?

What temp is cold?

How often do you go?
And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.
Many do as little as a 1/8" CCF with a neo-air for example into the 20's.

I'm sure you've heard it before but... after a few weeks a good deal of the crinkle fades in the TR air pads... and hard to go wrong with an Xtherm. Or air pad plus CCF combo.

Slip cover on the ridge rest is a no-go- you'd need something rigid to create an airspace... though a second pad would work somewhat.

Mags

11-02-2015, 15:00

Just Bill

11-02-2015, 15:32

Missed you saying zero above...
R5-7 is ideal for that depending on how cold you sleep.

While pad failures (especially in the neo-air line) are overblown IMO... the only foolproof pad is a hunk of foam... if you want foolproof and indestructible then you need to bite the bulky bullet.

Unfortunately they don't sell the z-lite sol wider than 20".
So for foamies only- two Ridgerest SOL @ R2.8 each 5.6 combined would be 2lbs 6 oz.
You could likely trim at least one of them or shorten the length on both if you don't need the full 77" length. You could also taper them into a neo-air shape and get them down to 1lb each or so.

If you had a larger volume pack, you could store one or both internally and stuff you gear into them (the old SUL internal frame pad trick).

The Z pads definitely make the best sit pads though... so if you could deal with a 25" over a 20" you'd have a decent setup.

nsherry61

11-02-2015, 15:53

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 16:13

Your numbers don't add up. 5.5 lbs, and the like.

The weights are for two 25x77 rectangular pads.

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 16:23

air or ground?

Ground, in a 4-season tent.

How often do you go?

It will be for a thru-hike that is likely to extend into winter, as well as many weekend hikes in the meantime.

And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.

That is what I am currently doing. We actually use the two short pads turned 90 degrees from normal and spanning both of our torsos, then put Prolites on top. However this is non-ideal for a few reasons:

1. The CCF insulation is only under the torsos. Not sure how much this matters.
2. The Prolites are tapered, so there is uninsulated ground at the feet. We use a single bag in quilt fashion over both of us in a 50" width. My thought is that the uninsulated ground will allow too much cold in under the quilt. Hence why I was seeking out rectangular self-inflating options like the Nemo and Exped options, as I don't think Therm-a-Rest makes one.
3. I have read a lot of complaints about the Prolites delaminating after a few months of use. Cascade Designs is great about replacing them, but this is not a hassle I look forward to.

I'm sure you've heard it before but... after a few weeks a good deal of the crinkle fades in the TR air pads... and hard to go wrong with an Xtherm. Or air pad plus CCF combo.

I am not sure how much it fades, actually our first pads were XLites but we found them uncomfortable - air pads without foam are too thick and bouncy feeling... They are really light though (even the XTherm MAX), and get rave reviews, so are probably the best option for inflatable pads. We got a good deal on some Big Agnes Q-Core pads and found that design significantly more comfortable, however the problem with them is that they have a larger "rail" on the sides, making the middle of our "mattress" where the two pads join an uncomfortable surface.

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 16:41

I've done plenty of happy winter camping with either two CF pads or one CF pad and an inflatable. It sounds like you've already got a CF pad you are happy with except for the warmth. So either add another CF pad to the back, top, or bottom of your pack (the bulk really is manageable if you aren't doing too much bushwacking. I generally carry one pad either verticle on the back of my pack or horizontal on the bottom of my pack and carry the second CF pad on the top, generally under the lid of the pack. Alternatively add either a summer or winter inflatable under your CF pad. That way, you are never without some insulation even if your inflatable springs a leak, and you are comfortable with the extra padding of the inflatable. The most highly touted inflatable I am aware of for winter camping the the Thermorest X-therm, which is even more R-value than I have ever used in combination with my CF pad.

The main problem is bulk. My internal frame pack is large but not really well set up for lashing more stuff to, which at times makes me wonder if I shouldn't buy a Kelty Tioga 5500 (no idea if it would be comfortable for me though) or some other external frame. I have tried putting the pads inside the pack burrito style but it uses up a lot of the space requiring me to fully-extend the expandable top of my bag (which wouldn't be adequate for 25" wide pads) and does not leave me with adequate room in the pack. What I have done with the small pads is use some webbing to strap them to the back of my pack near the bottom horizontally - so that if I set my pack down on the ground, it is not on the pads. This also can work over the top of a rain cover, which is important as my current rain cover can't fit anything under it except the pack. That said, I have gotten a dry pack liner and a couple other dry bags for my gear, so may not need a rain cover at all. The two short pads roll up together and form a reasonable single roll, only 20" wide. The short pads won't cut it for winter use, and I'd need to carry two 25" pads, which are each about the same size of roll as the two short pads, but also 5" wider if attached in this fashion. In theory my wife might be able to carry one of the pads, but figuring out how to lash one to her child carrier will be a challenge. Probably easier to lash them both to the back of my pack, and to avoid the problem of the added width, might need to figure out how to lash them vertically. Using CCF exclusively seems to be the safest option (and I have no concern about the comfort) but 4 pads would be quite a challenge to figure out.

SkeeterPee

11-02-2015, 16:51

I generally carry one pad either verticle on the back of my pack or horizontal on the bottom of my pack and carry the second CF pad on the top, generally under the lid of the pack. Alternatively add either a summer or winter inflatable under your CF pad. That way, you are never without some insulation even if your inflatable springs a leak, and you are comfortable with the extra padding of the inflatable. The most highly touted inflatable I am aware of for winter camping the the Thermorest X-therm, which is even more R-value than I have ever used in combination with my CF pad.
2 questions how do you attach a pad vertically to your pack? Does it have daisy chains? My Osprey Atmos 65 does not seem to have places to attach vertically. and if I use a pack cover, horizontal is an issue. Second, I was thinking if I get a CF, it would go under the inflatable. What is reason for putting inflatable next to ground? Thanks in advance.

Just Bill

11-02-2015, 16:55

Sorry, lol... your posts make more sense as a couple's sleep system. Stupid internet.

So... two people. (big difference)
You're both happy with short ridge rest pads in summer?
Thus far you then turn them and put them together so you have a 48" wide x 40" long torso pad? (9 oz each and 18 oz total)
Then you put two prolites over this but you find the gap in the middle concerning and you only have R5 at your torso, not full body.

An extended thru... which means of the potential 180 days (6 months) you're likely only going to see zero... (never? 10 days) or you are planning an extended winter portion?

What packs do you carry? Have you done/tried the typical UL trick of putting your pack under your feet and or using a pack with removable sit pad that you can use to make up a layer. Or using your packs to fill in that gap at the foot end of the tapered pads?

It sounds like you need to take your summer rig, sort out ways to fill it out as a baselayer (packs, sit pads, ect.) then choose how best to add layers for the colder portions of the trip, yes? Unless you're doing a winter thru, why completely redo your gear when you can supplement it.

A GG wide pad for example in 1/4" could be the second layer- http://gossamergear.com/thinlight-insulation-pads.html
At 40 x 60 that would smooth out a double bed pretty well- and carried vertically wouldn't be horribly bulky. That's only about R 1 though at 1/4".
So R2.8 in your "summer" pads, plus one wide pad puts you at 3.8 for the three season portion of your trip.
Mail drop (or start with) a second GG wide pad to get you to R4.8... two bodies sharing that would be fine to the odd zero degree night. Especially if you make a sandwich of GG pads with the odd stuff in the center you might clear R.5.

The plus side is this rig "breaks down" or builds up as needed during the changing seasons without breaking the bank or bulking up too horribly.

The other option is to cut up a z-rest pad to make a nice combo sit pad and calf/heel pad. Doing a torso length pad from shoulder to butt, and then a second sit pad from calf to heel is a good hammock trick or SUL hiker one. The Zrest folds are 5" and it's 20" wide... so you can cut a 15x20 or 20x 20 and it still folds up well and keeps your calves and heels warm.

If the GG sizes don't make sense or seem too short- http://www.foambymail.com/VA/polyethylene-foam-roll.html
They sell the foam off a 60" wide roll x however many lineal feet long you think you need. So you could make any size pad you wanted, and you could get 3/8" foam if you wanted more R value.

In this case... making up a "pillow case" to hold everything together and serve as a sheet does make some sense for the cold side of things.
http://ripstopbytheroll.com/collections/0-66-oz-membrane-10-taffeta-nylon/products/0-66-oz-membrane-10-taffeta-nylon
a 50x72 pillow case would take about 5.75 yards of fabric- roughly 4 ounces in this fabric... and you'd have a washable "sheet" that you could also use as a high summer sleeping bag for two.

Sandy of PA

11-02-2015, 20:15

Dogwood

11-02-2015, 20:31

air or ground?

What temp is cold?

How often do you go?
And if not that often why not bring the CCF you own (R2.5 ish) and couple it with a self inflator or air pad you like (R2-3) and have an R 4 or 5 pad.
Many do as little as a 1/8" CCF with a neo-air for example into the 20's...

Generally, an R-value of 5 is suggested for Winter. Of course, it depends on where you are going for Winter, too.

I use a full length z-rest (Z-lite now I suppose) with a short Neo Air. Gives me the R value I need and the versatility I like. A foam pad is esp useful for outside of the shelter. I pack the foam pad on the outside of my pack.

This is what I'm currently doing down to minus 10-20*F. I have several different thickness and corresponding R Value CF pads I mix and match with my inflatables.

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 20:39

The Neo-Air all-season is rectangular and comes in a large 25"x77". It can be cut down and resealed to any length you want. Walmart sells a foam pad of the same size, and some pad joiner kits from thermo-rest and you got a big rectangular mattress with a high R value.

Is there any advantage of the NeoAir All Season over the NeoAir XTherm MAX? Is it less noisy? More durable material?

I don't need a pad joiner as I will be using a groundsheet (http://featheredfriends.com/condor-double-groundsheet.html) which fits two 25" wide mattresses. Or I could remove the stitching down the center to accommodate a single 50" wide pad.

Here are the specs from Cascade Designs' website:
* All Season, Large: $180, R4.9, 25oz
* XTherm MAX, Large: $230, R5.7, 23oz

Casey & Gina

11-02-2015, 21:27

An extended thru... which means of the potential 180 days (6 months) you're likely only going to see zero... (never? 10 days) or you are planning an extended winter portion?

We will be hiking the AT southbound, and likely not moving at a fast pace, so by the time we reach Georgia, it is likely to be winter. Even if not, our plan is to keep hiking as long as affordable, perhaps turning around and heading back north or continuing the ECT farther south. It is likely we will be out all winter, just hard to say exactly where that will be. And this winter will be full of weekend overnight trips.

What packs do you carry? Have you done/tried the typical UL trick of putting your pack under your feet and or using a pack with removable sit pad that you can use to make up a layer. Or using your packs to fill in that gap at the foot end of the tapered pads?

Yes, we did that when we tried using short XLite pads, as due to the 3 inch dropoff, it was a necessity for comfort. I carry an 85L pack (Deuter Aircomfort Pro 70+15) with most of our gear, and my wife carries a child carrier (Deuter Kid Comfort III) with our son and all of his necessities.

The plus side is this rig "breaks down" or builds up as needed during the changing seasons without breaking the bank or bulking up too horribly.

A "layering" approach makes sense, though it may or may not be necessary (as far as I can tell, there is no downside to having "too much" insulation under you in warmer conditions). I appreciate the suggestions and will have to ponder them. The foambymail option is particularly interesting, though they don't publish an R-value for their foams so it is hard to say how well they would work...

We really need 25" wide pads, or a single 50", though.

The other option is to cut up a z-rest pad to make a nice combo sit pad and calf/heel pad. Doing a torso length pad from shoulder to butt, and then a second sit pad from calf to heel is a good hammock trick or SUL hiker one. The Zrest folds are 5" and it's 20" wide... so you can cut a 15x20 or 20x 20 and it still folds up well and keeps your calves and heels warm.

We briefly tried Zlite pads and really didn't like them compared to the Thermarest. The rolled-up RidgeRest was easier to deal with than the folded Zlite, and had a better R-value. It seemed more durable but that may have been false perception. In any case, they don't make a 25" Zlite.

In this case... making up a "pillow case" to hold everything together and serve as a sheet does make some sense for the cold side of things.

We will be using a groundsheet (link above) which should be able to serve that purpose.

MuddyWaters

11-02-2015, 21:34

I have used ridgerest Solite with gossamer gear nightlite torso pad. I could feel heat radiating back against my back. It was toasty down around 28-30, but ground wasnt real cold. If I could stay on back comfortably all night Id still use that.

garlic08

11-02-2015, 23:09

nsherry61

11-02-2015, 23:27

I find that I am fine with a long CCF pad and another short pad (either CCF or inflatable) to keep me warm in most winter conditions. My feet and lower legs are generally fine on just the single layer of CCF pad. I have found that putting the CCF pad on top of a 3-season inflatable pad is warmer than the other way around. I don't know why, but it is notably warmer with the CCF on top, at least at -10 to -15F.

As for strapping a pad vertically on the back (front?) of the pack, you can run lines or straps (or elastic for that matter) across the back, either between daisy chains or between compression straps or other accessory loops. Some packs take a bit of creativity, but it often works well if you can get it figured out.

Good luck

Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 00:31

I find that I am fine with a long CCF pad and another short pad (either CCF or inflatable) to keep me warm in most winter conditions. My feet and lower legs are generally fine on just the single layer of CCF pad.

Cool, it sounds like 2 large CCF pads and 2 short CCF pads run crosswise for added torso insulation is workable then. Still bulky but not as much so as 4 large pads.

Will have to check out Reflectix too. Guess nothing will really be proven without some actual cold weather experimentation!

Just Bill

11-03-2015, 11:32

. The foambymail option is particularly interesting, though they don't publish an R-value for their foams so it is hard to say how well they would work...

Just learned something handy from Hammock Forums... not positive on the formula but it seems to check out against other stuff.

On the tech sheets they list thermal resistance of the 2lb foam at .25.
The formula is thickness in inches divided by thermal resistance-
1/4"= R 1
3/8"= R 1.5
1/2"= R 2

On your last post-
If the torso length is making sense and you didn't do it already- cutting a L ridgerest in half would give you 2 25" wide by 38.5" pads which should give you the shoulder to butt base layer. Your big pack can probably laid across to provide some insulation at your feet. (or a reflectix piece)

You could then fill in with the foam by mail stuff for a top layer. Going southbound I think you'd probably be okay with as little as R4 and just accepting a handful of chilly nights in favor of overdoing it every day. (or at worst bumping up through TN/NC) While it would be a good 12" diameter, with the pad sleeve you have you could do two 25" x 72" foam by mail pads in the sleeve, fold in half and rolled up I'm guessing it might fit in that dead space on the kid carrier between your wife's lower back and the kickstand.

RangerZ

11-03-2015, 13:39

The combo that works well for me down to -10 F, usually on snow, is a 3/4 Ridgerest and a full length of Reflectix duct insulation. If you can use the end of a 25' roll that you buy (from Home Depot) for some household project, the cost is nil. The weight and bulk is practically nil. It only adds a small R value, but it's been enough for me. And the IR reflection component helps where it lacks in loft.

I haven't tried -10* F but at +18* I was fine with my 23* sleeping bag, zlite sol and full length reflectix, in my tent, with UA base layer and balaclava. Don't know the R value.

I carry the zlite and reflectix strapped vertically to my atmos 65.

Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 13:51

Just learned something handy from Hammock Forums... not positive on the formula but it seems to check out against other stuff.

On the tech sheets they list thermal resistance of the 2lb foam at .25.
The formula is thickness in inches divided by thermal resistance-
1/4"= R 1
3/8"= R 1.5
1/2"= R 2

Awesome info, thanks for sharing!

Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 14:31

Some weight calculations for a 77"x50" surface of the Foambymail 2lb density closed cell PE, compared to RidgeRests:

1/4" = 1 lb 2 oz, R1.0
3/8" = 1 lb 8 oz, R1.5
1/2" = 2 lb 4 oz, R2.0, 0.056R/oz
RidgeRest SOLite = 2 lb 6 oz, R2.8, 0.073R/oz
RidgeRest Solar = 3 lb 4 oz, R3.5, 0.067R/oz

The RidgeRests are more efficient for the weight, probably due to the reflective layer and air pockets. The foambymail stuff isn't bad though. RidgeRest Solars could be used in conjunction with 3/8" foambymail pads to deliver R5.0, at 4 lb 12 oz for the entire large rectangular sleeping surface. The only thing that gives notably better insulation for the weight is a pair of NeoAir XTherm MAX pads, at 2 lb 14 oz. The Sea-to-Summit Comfort Plus and Big Agnes Q-Core insulated pads are the next in line giving R5.0 for 4 lb 8 oz. Those options are not failsafe.

Also if only torso coverage is needed with the PE layer, that reduces the total weight to 3 lb 10 oz. I am also thinking the trapped air pockets in the RidgeRest where it would lie against the PE mat would add additional insulation value.

Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 14:33

Also if only torso coverage is needed with the PE layer, that reduces the total weight to 3 lb 10 oz.

Bad math - it would be reduced to 4 lb even.

Just Bill

11-03-2015, 15:27

You'll never touch the Xtherm's for weight, volume, r-value... unless you want to accept the possibility of a failure you're just torturing yourself with those specs.

Otherwise, regardless of the final combo of foam, mixing torso lengths and gear for padding and adding/subtracting some more as you go is probably your best mix for the long haul.

You'll get a small bump for the extra trapped air in any of the Thermarest foams though I wouldn't count it for much.

The only (wide) foam not covered is the REI blue foamy... though looks like the foam by mail is a better deal. The only reason to point it out is that it would be easy to find on trail if needed. http://www.rei.com/product/848717/blue-foam-pad-regular

The STS pads... not positive about that exact model- but I wrote them off for two reasons-
Folks at BPL held them up to the light and noted that they are not insulated side to side, only at the core.
If you're worried about durability, the first generation of pads is going to have the highest failure rate. And with all the curved surfaces of the STS line a solid field patch seems dicey at best.

STS is notoriously generous with their ratings of things too (temps) so until more field reports come back I would be skeptical of those pads.

If you go air, stick with Thermarest. Besides the decades of doing pads, the Neo Air and Xlite are now "new" for 2015 and in the third generation of refinements.
Anything is possible, but catastrophic failure is unlikely. With the shape of the baffles a field repair is a relatively smooth process, with the worst case IMO being having to wait until you reached a hostel in cold weather to get a patch set at room temperature for 24 hours. With your pad sleeve on them you'd have to literally stab them... you won't get an abrasion leak.

Keep in mind, every delam failure posted has been a baffle to baffle one. Not an edge. So the pad still held air and wouldn't leave you totally screwed.

Bottom line... seems you're sold on the foam. Weight seems to be close to a wash.
Looks like your issue now is to see if you can get the bulk monster under control... between your hero dad pack and mom's sack of giggles you're getting a bit dimensionally challenged. :D

PLEASE!- even if you don't bring a dedicated device, video your trip through Mahoosic Notch! :sun
I'm envisioning a work gang of folks passing pads and packs through the tunnels and clocking in somewhere around 4 hours. :banana

colorado_rob

11-03-2015, 15:40

Generally, an R-value of 5 is suggested for Winter. Of course, it depends on where you are going for Winter, too.

I use a full length z-rest (Z-lite now I suppose) with a short Neo Air. Gives me the R value I need and the versatility I like. A foam pad is esp useful for outside of the shelter. I pack the foam pad on the outside of my pack.My winter kit exactly. Never had a blow-up pad fail in probably close to a thousand nights (I've had a couple slow leaks), with maybe 200 nights being in bitter cold (either winter or very high altitude in the summer). If I did have a winter failure, at least the z-rest would provide some insulation. Relying solely on a blowup pad is risky for deep winter use.

Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 15:47

You'll never touch the Xtherm's for weight, volume, r-value... unless you want to accept the possibility of a failure you're just torturing yourself with those specs.

Yeah, if I were gonna go inflatable, the XTherm, even though I don't like it from a comfort standpont, is impossible to beat on overall specs. The other one I was considering was the Exped Downmat TT 9, but they would be quite heavy at 6.1 pounds for a pair, and quite expensive. Warm, though.

The only (wide) foam not covered is the REI blue foamy... though looks like the foam by mail is a better deal. The only reason to point it out is that it would be easy to find on trail if needed. http://www.rei.com/product/848717/blue-foam-pad-regular

For some reason I didn't realize that was wide before...

If you go air, stick with Thermarest. Besides the decades of doing pads, the Neo Air and Xlite are now "new" for 2015 and in the third generation of refinements.
Anything is possible, but catastrophic failure is unlikely. With the shape of the baffles a field repair is a relatively smooth process, with the worst case IMO being having to wait until you reached a hostel in cold weather to get a patch set at room temperature for 24 hours. With your pad sleeve on them you'd have to literally stab them... you won't get an abrasion leak.

I have indeed been overall pleased with the quality of Therm-a-Rest products, and have heard nothing but praise of their warranty replacement as well.

Keep in mind, every delam failure posted has been a baffle to baffle one. Not an edge. So the pad still held air and wouldn't leave you totally screwed.

True...

Bottom line... seems you're sold on the foam. Weight seems to be close to a wash.

Maybe, I'm still weighing options, and the XTherm is not off the table. They are so light and compact I could even carry a spare one, lol.

Looks like your issue now is to see if you can get the bulk monster under control... between your hero dad pack and mom's sack of giggles you're getting a bit dimensionally challenged. :D

PLEASE!- even if you don't bring a dedicated device, video your trip through Mahoosic Notch! :sun
I'm envisioning a work gang of folks passing pads and packs through the tunnels and clocking in somewhere around 4 hours. :banana

Yeah. :(

Just Bill

11-03-2015, 16:10

If you lean back towards the neo air... Seems like the xlites and foam is the better mix of pads given your current gear.
Though you could go with your current foams for summer and a bit beyond and do a full swap for the Xtherms when it gets closer to 30/40...

Hate to point it out as I just thought of it... you're not picking your pad in isolation either. With winter pad needs also comes winter sleeping bag, clothing, hats, gloves, stove fuel etc. The bulk monster strikes again...

As a couple you may not need to go nuts on the TQ, but as a family you may have too much other bulk to skip an inflatable.

on the other hand... when I go with my son I put our pads and bags into a larger stuff sack. That rides in the carrier until he needs to, then I lash that sack onto the back of the pack (osprey poco) It's got a few lash points on it so the switch is pretty easy.

Not the best pic of it- but you can see the grey sack in the carrier and the orange dynaglide on the back loop ready to lash. There are 4 built into the pack, plus other tie points if needed. I think you mentioned a deuter for your wife? The poco has a pretty good sized storage area down below. I can fit a Copper spur UL2, a weekend of gear and food including cook kit in there. The boy gets a small neo-air and I get the large. We each use our own quilt. He's just shy of 40 lbs now, so probably near 70lbs in it with 4L of water and gear with no failures...
Not gunna say that was pleasant, just that it can take that load.

Only pointing it out as that pack has a good bit of volume, so she could take on more of the bulk monster while you haul all the heavy dense gear.
Farmer Chef is worth a PM too, he might have some more tips for you.

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Casey & Gina

11-03-2015, 16:33

Hate to point it out as I just thought of it... you're not picking your pad in isolation either. With winter pad needs also comes winter sleeping bag, clothing, hats, gloves, stove fuel etc. The bulk monster strikes again...

We are going to use a 0 degree Condor bag from Feathered Friends (not listed on their website) in quilt style zipped on to the groundsheet which contains the pads. I generally do not have any problem sleeping hot unless it's really hot at night, in which case simply silk liners and clothing should suffice. I have used a 15 degree bag through the summer without complaint and use a down comforter at home. Getting "too hot" is not really a problem I have. We will still need to add a few more clothing items for winter-readiness but are close to covered there. My base weight pretty much sucks, lol.

As a couple you may not need to go nuts on the TQ, but as a family you may have too much other bulk to skip an inflatable.

Well my pack is large, but it's more than needed (and I like to keep it that way). I never need to use the 15L extension even with food, unless I try to pack a CCF pad inside. I had an ACT Lite 60+10 but upgraded to the Aircontact Pro 75+15 as it offered better comfort, especially when loaded up with entirely too much weight (I have since reduced my weight, but appreciate the added comfort & durability of the bigger/heavier pack).

Not the best pic of it- but you can see the grey sack in the carrier and the orange dynaglide on the back loop ready to lash. There are 4 built into the pack, plus other tie points if needed. I think you mentioned a deuter for your wife? The poco has a pretty good sized storage area down below. I can fit a Copper spur UL2, a weekend of gear and food including cook kit in there. The boy gets a small neo-air and I get the large. We each use our own quilt. He's just shy of 40 lbs now, so probably near 70lbs in it with 4L of water and gear with no failures...

Yeah, we have a Deuter. My wife found it more comfortable for her than the Osprey and it's what led me to getting a Deuter pack for myself as well. The Deuter KC3 has 18L storage capacity, including a large compartment under the seat - a difference from the Osprey is that the kickstand can be collapsed without rendering the storage space unusable. However that space ends up holding mainly stuff for the baby without a lot of room left over.

Only pointing it out as that pack has a good bit of volume, so she could take on more of the bulk monster while you haul all the heavy dense gear.

Yeah, if we can split it up at least it would help. A standalone stuffsack is nice too because if you do need to go through a tight spot or something, you can detach it and carry it through.

Another Kevin

11-03-2015, 18:01

I'm a ground dweller, so can't speak to hammocking.

What I use in winter is the same ProLite that I use in summer, with a generic heavy (5/8 inch?) blue foam pad from XYZ-Mart.

Just Bill will testify - I was toasty in Harriman last winter in the single digits subzero F. If it were ten degrees colder, I'd add a cut-down auto sunshade INSIDE the sleeping bag where the aluminized layer will reflect heat back at me. Between that and wearing a fleece suit, socks, gloves, tuque, balaclava, and a hot-water bottle or chemical body warmer, I can push a 0 degree bag to -10 or -15 in reasonable comfort.. (The thermal rating assumes a light- or mid-weight baselayer,) I don't ever PLAN to do that, but once in a while the weather runs colder than forecast.

My clueless-weekender opinion is that you need two pads in the winter, and one of them has to be foam lest the other spring a leak. That could make the difference between a cold and sleepless night and a survival situation.

Casey & Gina

11-05-2015, 08:49

I wonder how much insulative value a wool blanket would offer. Anyone tried a wool blanket on top of a CCF in cold weather?

colorado_rob

11-05-2015, 08:58

I wonder how much insulative value a wool blanket would offer. Anyone tried a wool blanket on top of a CCF in cold weather?I'd say significantly less than a second, and much lighter, CCF pad.

Casey & Gina

11-05-2015, 09:16

I'd say significantly less than a second, and much lighter, CCF pad.

Ouch, I didn't realize how heavy blankets were!

squeezebox

11-05-2015, 09:58

What about 2 inflatable pads? Very unlikely that you would spring a leak in both. But there is a certain risk though.

Casey & Gina

11-05-2015, 11:29

What about 2 inflatable pads? Very unlikely that you would spring a leak in both. But there is a certain risk though.

The idea of this thread was to consider alternatives to using anything inflatable to see if it was a viable route to consider. I have had some direct experience with inflatables failing (due to manufacturer defect at the seams) and, in doing research, seeing how ones I had my hopes up in have failed for others. As a couple we would be carrying two mats anyways, so it is not so much of a survival risk since we could pile onto a single wide mat if need be.

Just Bill

11-05-2015, 12:03

The idea of this thread was to consider alternatives to using anything inflatable to see if it was a viable route to consider. I have had some direct experience with inflatables failing (due to manufacturer defect at the seams) and, in doing research, seeing how ones I had my hopes up in have failed for others. As a couple we would be carrying two mats anyways, so it is not so much of a survival risk since we could pile onto a single wide mat if need be.

That said... you just made a mildly compelling argument to save some bulk and go with a rectangular inflatable to supplement your foam.
When your backup plan is spooning with the missus in the event of an emergency it seems like slaying the bulk monster with an inflatable is the prudent course. ;)

Connie

11-06-2015, 13:28

I had a Neoair and I have an XTherm. I have had no problems whatsoever.

For winter camp, I like a CCF pad under the Xtherm.

This combination has been quite cozy, on snow, with a "ground cloth" of polycryo in my Shangri-La 3.

Casey & Gina

12-04-2015, 23:57

Two large Ridgerest Solars strapped on to a Kelty Super Tioga...the two shorter Ridgerest Classics not shown here, but they can easily strap on above the Solars. I am really digging the external frame pack - can't wait to take it out for a test hike.

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Dogwood

12-05-2015, 06:16

That said... you just made a mildly compelling argument to save some bulk and go with a rectangular inflatable to supplement your foam.
When your backup plan is spooning with the missus in the event of an emergency it seems like slaying the bulk monster with an inflatable is the prudent course. ;)

Yup. And consider an inflatable has added protection from failures in camp because you're 1) in a floored shelter 2) enclosing the inflatable pad in the FF groundsheet 3) Are adding an additional CCF pad layer between the ground and the inflatable pad. As Rob has experienced I too have had VERY FEW problems with inflatable pads failing especially in winter with a modicum of care.

Not all CCF pads are equal. Some are much stiffer. Some are of softer CCF that can be rolled tightly and then folded in half reducing bulk attached to the outside of the backpack not taking up precious protective interior backpack volume, perhaps even more crucial in winter and/or with how you are describing your typical winter kits. This is able even in SOME CCF pads up to 5/8." This CCF option reduces CCF bulk. Those stiff cheap Wally World CCF pads are often extremely stiff and hence bulky for example.
Additionally on really cold trips mix in a Refextiv or Mylar layer. The Mylar weighs very little and folds up to a deck of cards volume even in the 2 p size you'd need.

I've never personally seen the FF 0* Condor/groundsheet zipped in unison employed. I find the groundsheet in reg length very iffy in deep winter considering you're adding 19 0z of wt and it seems little in R-value for what amounts to the convenience of a paired pad sleeve. For fairer weather scenarios I don't see the system as iffy but for deep 0* winter HMM? Increasing 19 0z could best be served in other ways possibly with higher insulating properties?

hikerhobs

12-05-2015, 09:59

I use the thermarest base camp pad with a R-5 valve and a fleece blanket doubled up underneath the pad, this is what I use all winter.

squeezebox

12-13-2015, 11:22

I'm only 5'8" but I bought the neoaire Xlite large for the extra width. Now I'm looking at a CCF pad to put under it for cold weather. Can I successfully put a reg size CCF under the large inflateable? Or will the drop off on the edge be too much. I'ld like to save the 5 oz. from the large to reg CCF pad, But I won't do it if it's uncomfortable. What worked and did not work for you? Of course I probably should just go to Rei for a nap and see for myself.

Casey & Gina

12-13-2015, 20:26

I wouldn't sweat 5oz, real question is whether you are okay with the added bulk of a large size CCF.

cmoulder

12-13-2015, 21:15

1/4" Evazote, 25" x 72" (or shorter/narrower if you prefer). Probably won't be able to find exactly the size you're looking for, but you can buy it from someplace such as Gossamer Gear (hammock pad is 39" x 59"), cut it to size with a #11 Xacto and a steel straightedge and glue the pieces together with Weld contact cement. Superb bond.

My experience has been that the airmat/CCF combo is warmer with the CCF atop the air mat. I'm interested to hear how it works out for you.

Dogwood

12-13-2015, 22:21

...My experience has been that the airmat/CCF combo is warmer with the CCF atop the air mat. I'm interested to hear how it works out for you.

I think what factors into that perception is the nature of how the inflatable pad is designed and how one sleeps. For example, with some inflatable pad designs for colder weather we see air chambers or small pockets of where air will be trapped on the top surface of the pad. Look at say an Exped Syncel Mat 5 or a Big Agnes Q Core or BA Double Z pad designed to trap warmed heat in pockets or channels with closed ends on the top side of the pad verses a pad that has full lateral or vertical baffle seams with a continuous end to end channel that actually tends to channel some heat away from under you such as a Thermorest NeoAir series inflatable pad. Same principle of air channeling, at least in theory, is used with Patgonia's R1 Fleece Pullovers. Additionally, if the CCF pad goes on top of such an inflatable pad it creates closed air chambers on the surface of the inflatable trapping heat too.

Also, if one tends to sleep restlessly from side to side or flopping from back to stomach even with those inflatable pads that trap heat in pockets you can let that trapped heated air escape.

http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/syncellmat-5-m
https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/qcores
https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/doublez

verses

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/fast-and-light/neoair-xlite/product
https://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Pad/AirCore

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-r1-fleece-pullover?p=40108-1