View Full Version : Toaks Siphon Alcohol Stove
Casey & Gina
11-04-2015, 13:12
Just wanted to take a moment to praise the Toaks Siphon Alcohol Stove (http://toaksoutdoor.com/toakstitaniumalcoholstove.aspx), which I'm super-impressed with. It's a capillary hoop design, made of titanium. It is amazingly simple, offers easy fuel recovery, and is pretty efficient. It's amazingly strong as well - will not easily dent or deform, while still weighing 0.7 ounce. Small and nests inside my cup. My only criticism is their optional pot stand (http://toaksoutdoor.com/toaksstoveframe.aspx). It's about a half inch too high for maximum efficiency, so needs to be trimmed down. Easy enough.
Anybody else using one of these?
capehiker
11-04-2015, 14:01
I am and agree with your assessment. The stove itself is a rock star and blooms instantly. The pot stand it comes with is what hinders it. I feel it needs to be wider and a half inch shorter. I've been doing a lot of boil tests at home and will fire it up for a cup of coffee, but because I have yet to make or come across a sturdier base, it does not go in my pack. I did cut a square of wire off and got a boil time right at 6:00 minutes at home.
Casey & Gina
11-04-2015, 14:12
I am and agree with your assessment. The stove itself is a rock star and blooms instantly. The pot stand it comes with is what hinders it. I feel it needs to be wider and a half inch shorter. I've been doing a lot of boil tests at home and will fire it up for a cup of coffee, but because I have yet to make or come across a sturdier base, it does not go in my pack. I did cut a square of wire off and got a boil time right at 6:00 minutes at home.
You can shape the pot stand wider by just having a larger open section, or even making it more of an oval than round... The two ends are not meant to touch, but rather have a gap between them about as wide as the stove or so...
donthaveoneyet
11-04-2015, 15:58
I've wondered about this stove. But why is it any different from a simple cat can type stove (without the holes)? It's just a can, right?
As for the stand, I've been making (lots of) stands from hardware cloth, and experimenting with attaching a flashing liner to the stand. I've been amazed at the improvement in boil times doing that as opposed to a bare hardware cloth stand. (See pic below. I've made smaller ones, I just happen to have this pic on my phone.) I've been able to get boil times down from about 7:45 to under 6:00 just by adding the flashing (using a Zelph). Just an FYI re the stands...
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Odd Man Out
11-04-2015, 16:15
The Toaks stove is a capillary hoop stove style and is completely different than a cat food can stove. It has a double wall. Alcohol is drawn up between the walls by capillary action (the walls are very close together). At the top, there is wider area between the walls near the rim (the hoop) were the alcohol accumulates and vaporizes. Tiny holes in the hoop allow the fuel vapors to escape and burn to form the flame jets. Unlike most stoves, the fuel in the reservoir at the bottom does not vaporize. Only a small amount of fuel in hoop vaporizes. This is why they come to full power (bloom) very quickly with little priming time. Also, the pot does not set on the stove (like a cat can stove) so you need a pot stand, but the cold pot does not dampen the fuel vaporization either, and since you only need thermal feedback to vaporize the small amount of fuel in the hoop at the top of the stove, they work well in all temperatures (mine ran normally at 4 deg F last winter, although it took a bit longer to get going at that temp). There is a thread just started for those of us who build these out of aluminum cans. This is the only commercial CHS I know of. I would like to know how they compare to the DIY ones.
Odd Man Out
11-04-2015, 16:18
BTW, for a good comparison, it would help to know the components of the system (type of pot, pot stand height, type of wind screen), volume of water, initial temp of water, volume of fuel, time to full boil, time to flame out. From these data you can calculate power and efficiency and make fair comparisons to other systems.
donthaveoneyet
11-04-2015, 16:20
Thanks, OMO, I appreciate the explanation. That's very interesting. I think I'll pick one up (hell, I've ordered just about every other alcohol stove known to mankind)....
capehiker
11-04-2015, 20:45
I completely forgot I had a first look video of this burner, so I uploaded it. The action starts at 5:45 and I have a really nice overhead shot of the flame pattern at 10:30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ9xWQgG6Kc
I don't see anything here that would persuade me to purchase this. Any other advocates?
donthaveoneyet
11-04-2015, 22:32
I don't see anything here that would persuade me to purchase this. Any other advocates?
Was someone trying to persuade you to purchase something?
I was saying that the information about the unit is not positively compelling. Nobody is trying to sell me on it, but it seems lacking to me.
Odd Man Out
11-04-2015, 23:34
I completely forgot I had a first look video of this burner, so I uploaded it. The action starts at 5:45 and I have a really nice overhead shot of the flame pattern at 10:30.
Thanks. First time I've seen that stove in action. It does not have a vortex flame pattern as the original DIY CHS designs do. That would help focus the flames on the center of the pot even more. Boil in just under 7 min with flame out at 10 min on 1 oz of fuel. Timing might be a bit off as he didn't start the clock right away when he lit the stove. But that comes out to boiling 2 cups with about 0.7 oz of fuel. A good wind screen could help with the efficiency and power/boil time (it's not just to keep the wind out). I don't buy the assertion that 1" above the stove is the optimal height. That probably needs to be optimized for each system. But a shorter stand might help this. An easy way to test (without having to cut your stand) is to prop the stove up on some blocks. You can test a bunch of different gaps that way with no modifications to the system necessary.
Do you need something like a syringe to recover the fuel?
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 06:14
Thanks. First time I've seen that stove in action. It does not have a vortex flame pattern as the original DIY CHS designs do. That would help focus the flames on the center of the pot even more. Boil in just under 7 min with flame out at 10 min on 1 oz of fuel. Timing might be a bit off as he didn't start the clock right away when he lit the stove. But that comes out to boiling 2 cups with about 0.7 oz of fuel. A good wind screen could help with the efficiency and power/boil time (it's not just to keep the wind out). I don't buy the assertion that 1" above the stove is the optimal height. That probably needs to be optimized for each system. But a shorter stand might help this. An easy way to test (without having to cut your stand) is to prop the stove up on some blocks. You can test a bunch of different gaps that way with no modifications to the system necessary.
A 1" height works better with this stove - Hiram Cook tested this (by doing exactly as you suggest and propping up the burner) and there is a youtube video showing the result. Donthaveoneyet's stand/windscreen looks like a great design.
The above video has the pot stand used incorrectly coiled up too tight, it is not big enough for the ends to meet. The pot stand is nothing special anyways, the burner is the nice part.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 06:16
Do you need something like a syringe to recover the fuel?
Nope, you just pour it out like you would a small cup back into your storage container, one of the great things about this design. Then you can relight the burner to burn off any residual fuel in a few seconds.
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 06:27
FYI, I use one of the 3 pieces of my Toaks Wood Stove (my primary method of cooking) as a stand/windscreen. It's a little tall so I may find a rock, bit of bark, anything really to raise the stove a little.
http://youtu.be/TaO7pETVeno
http://youtu.be/Y5LowrY2aJU
http://youtu.be/AsnxNuFKVj8
http://youtu.be/UvoyvVuoWKY
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 06:34
..........
Casey & Gina
11-05-2015, 06:48
I was saying that the information about the unit is not positively compelling. Nobody is trying to sell me on it, but it seems lacking to me.
Lacking how exactly?
It is efficient, very strong, foolproof to use, does not require priming, blooms fast, forces fuel back into itself in the event of overpressurization, offers easy fuel recovery, and easier though less rewarding than DIY. Seems great to me! I'd be curious to hear what you find lacking though as I don't have a lot of experience with other stoves.
Capillary stoves are cool, easy DIY stoves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAFAsPfC4s
Has anyone perfected a way to effectively simmer with it? I like the look of the weight compared to my Trangia but not sure if the benefits outweigh the cons.
The burn looks a little concentrated compared to Trangia. May be great for boiling water but what if I'm cooking something? Is it more likely to burn in the middle rather than get a nice even burn?
Is it possible to simmer with these types of burner? It looks like the burn comes exclusively from the rim, which I imagine would be hard to create a device to simmer with.
Casey & Gina
11-13-2015, 19:14
I will use pieces of my Toaks wood stove as a pot stand and wind screen. This will require use of a rock, stick, or other object within to raise the burner up to 1" from the pot bottom.
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donthaveoneyet
11-13-2015, 21:21
Why don't you just make a stand?
Casey & Gina
11-13-2015, 22:47
Why don't you just make a stand?
Don't want to carry something else when something I already have will work well.
squeezebox
11-14-2015, 20:40
You've convinced me to keep my canister stove. This has way too much fiddle factor. IMHO
May the lightness find you!!
Mittagsfrost
10-01-2018, 13:38
Is it possible to simmer with these types of burner? It looks like the burn comes exclusively from the rim, which I imagine would be hard to create a device to simmer with.
Yes, it is. If you use cross bars you can bend some aluminium foil the way shown below and slide it over the cross bars. You may reduce the gap between the two pieces and reduce the heat.
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If you use the wire frame as a pot stand it's even more simple. Just lay a piece of metal (or a flat stone) atop the burner and leave a small gap.
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I don't think I'd ever try to simmer with this stove, but I can vouch for it being a very effective alcohol stove. I also love that it nests with my 4oz bottle, making a very compact pkg.
Casey & Gina
10-01-2018, 15:33
You can use a heat spreader, which doesn't weigh much and is flat so packs easily.
There are small alcohol stoves out there that have integrated pot supports. One less item to fiddle with.
I purchased a Siphon(for the fun of it) and found mine to be under powered. Seems it might have a bad seal on the inner section. The jets work but doesn't look like what we see in the above videos.
Starchild
10-01-2018, 21:46
The Toaks stove is a capillary hoop stove style and is completely different than a cat food can stove. It has a double wall. Alcohol is drawn up between the walls by capillary action (the walls are very close together). At the top, there is wider area between the walls near the rim (the hoop) were the alcohol accumulates and vaporizes. Tiny holes in the hoop allow the fuel vapors to escape and burn to form the flame jets. Unlike most stoves, the fuel in the reservoir at the bottom does not vaporize. Only a small amount of fuel in hoop vaporizes. This is why they come to full power (bloom) very quickly with little priming time. Also, the pot does not set on the stove (like a cat can stove) so you need a pot stand, but the cold pot does not dampen the fuel vaporization either, and since you only need thermal feedback to vaporize the small amount of fuel in the hoop at the top of the stove, they work well in all temperatures (mine ran normally at 4 deg F last winter, although it took a bit longer to get going at that temp). There is a thread just started for those of us who build these out of aluminum cans. This is the only commercial CHS I know of. I would like to know how they compare to the DIY ones.
This is not entirely correct and it is really not a 'capillary hoop' stove by strict definition.
What is correct is that this is a double walled stove where the inner and outer wall are at a very close distance from each other. Fuel can flow freely from the center to the space between the walls, so it will fill to the same level as the center. Once lit the inner walls quickly heat up and that causes the fuel inbetween the space to heat far faster then fuel in the center. That fuel between the walls boils and bubbles and vaporizes. The bubbling due to boiling causes the higher fluid fuel level in the space between the walls (not capillary action), the term hoop was a throwback to earlier alchy stoves that used a looped (hooped) tube to achieve this (which this one does not have). This does produce more vaporization in that double walled section, and slightly pressurizes the vapor coming out of the ports. Now the rest (main pool) does vaporize, but it is small compared to what is going on between the walls. What is vaporized is just fuel added to what is burnt along side the 'ports' and is ignited there in the fire ring and again is minor.
Odd Man Out
10-01-2018, 22:18
I use a DIY eCHS with an Olicamp XTS pot. I make a pot stand out of aluminum flashing that doubles as a wind screen, so one less thing to deal with. The pot heat excanger sets on the stand with no air vents on the top so the vortex flame is focused on the center of the pot and then all heat exits through the heat exchangers. This gives a good combination of both efficiency (boil 2 cups room temp water with less than 15 mL) and power (4.5 min to boil. I don't like stoves where the pot sets on the stove. I need the stability of a wider stand.
Mittagsfrost
10-02-2018, 00:15
That's fine, but this thread is about the Toaks Siphon Alcohol Stove, isn't it?
gravitino
10-02-2018, 00:47
There are small alcohol stoves out there that have integrated pot supports. One less item to fiddle with.
I purchased a Siphon(for the fun of it) and found mine to be under powered. Seems it might have a bad seal on the inner section. The jets work but doesn't look like what we see in the above videos.
I had a similar experience, talked to Toaks, and received a replacement that worked just fine. After trying 6-7 different stoves, I've kept the Siphon as the one that most closely meets my needs. The sturdy titanium construction gives me peace of mind, and am happy with the fuel consumption, boil time, compactness, and light weight. To me, it is part of a "set and forget" kit that I don't have to worry about. I made the pot stand out of hardware cloth, 2.5 inches high, which along with the rest of the cook kit, rides happily inside a Toaks 650 ml pot.
cmoulder
10-02-2018, 08:38
That's fine, but this thread is about the Toaks Siphon Alcohol Stove, isn't it?
There is an unwritten 'rule' that after a 3-year necro-bump thread drift is permissible. ;)
I have a friend who uses the Toaks Siphon Stove and likes it. My current alcohol fave is the Groove Stove (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TfBDnCQ84w) used with a Sterno Inferno pot and Ti pot stand that I made for it.
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The Siphon would work well with the Sterno Inferno pot and Ti windscreen/pot support. I had excellent results with the Starlyte XL3 and the Inferno Pot and it's aluminum pot support. That set-up taught us a lot. [don't need no cone all the way up the sides of a pot ;)]
Odd Man Out
10-03-2018, 07:31
The Siphon would work well with the Sterno Inferno pot and Ti windscreen/pot support. I had excellent results with the Starlyte XL3 and the Inferno Pot and it's aluminum pot support. That set-up taught us a lot. [don't need no cone all the way up the sides of a pot ;)]
That's essentially what I described above, except the Olicamp pot is 4 cups and my pot stand is Aluminum and nests inside the pot for storage.
The Toaks is my favorite stove - stopped shopping/trying others since.
Primes instantly; runs properly on tiny amounts of fuel (unlike wick-based stoves); easy to fill, light, snuff out, and recover unused fuel; works fine at 0 F; good for narrow nesting pots; and being hollow, it can be stuffed or nest for near zero incremental volume.
6 min pint boils with 15mls. Flip my cross stand upside down with the binder clip (reduces gap to 1/2" starving air) and it simmers 1min per ml at a slow boil. Use a piece of tinfoil or tin can lid with a wick and it makes a great Alcohol candle for a luxury/survival heater combined with a poncho (Palmer Furnace) - 5min per ml burn time.
I use Everclear for fuel which itself is the ultimate liquid multi-tool, but that's for another thread. Together, they cover many bases and are well worthy EDC for me.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1766/42234173924_e54819a5a0_b.jpg
Nice pic showing how it works with the Evernew cross stand. Its not the ideal height with that stand (doesn't boil as fast and isn't as efficient), but it does make for a nice compact setup as your pic shows, and works just fine for most trips.
Odd Man Out
10-03-2018, 10:25
The Toaks is my favorite stove - stopped shopping/trying others since.
Primes instantly; runs properly on tiny amounts of fuel (unlike wick-based stoves); easy to fill, light, snuff out, and recover unused fuel; works fine at 0 F; good for narrow nesting pots; and being hollow, it can be stuffed or nest for near zero incremental volume.
6 min pint boils with 15mls. Flip my cross stand upside down with the binder clip (reduces gap to 1/2" starving air) and it simmers 1min per ml at a slow boil. Use a piece of tinfoil or tin can lid with a wick and it makes a great Alcohol candle for a luxury/survival heater combined with a poncho (Palmer Furnace) - 5min per ml burn time.
I use Everclear for fuel which itself is the ultimate liquid multi-tool, but that's for another thread. Together, they cover many bases and are well worthy EDC for me.
Agree. That's a nice system. The ability to snuff the flame and recover fuel is a big plus with these types of stoves. It doesn't matter if you have an efficient system that can boil 2 cups with 15 mL of fuel. If in the field your water boils before the flame burns out and you can't snuff it out and/or recover the excess fuel, then your actual fuel use will be greater. That was one reason I switched to using a Starlyte stove for a while. But then I switched to an eCHS stove because it has a lot more power without sacrificing efficiency.
What would you guys consider the ideal burn height and efficiency? I find all my Alky stoves to be pretty consistent at ~15mls per pint at room temp. If anything the Toaks is the fastest boiler of a half dozen stoves (better than Trangia) and it wastes some heat with flames lapping up the sides - my issue are the narrow diameter nesting pots I like for compactness.
If I use simmer mode to boil, I can do a pint in ~12min w/12mls of fuel.
Another thing I really like with the Toaks, is if you slightly under filled it (eg, had more wind then expected) a small splash of alcohol will prime and burn with a proper flame to get the boil I want. Everything other alky stove wastes too much fuel priming or getting soaking a wick (as opposed to burning).
"Fiddle Factors" multiple pieces to make a "stove" Yes, I know......you've made the purchase and will "make" it work for you. The Siphon is not cheap by no means.....but! it's made of "Titanium" the "gotta have" material ;)
Below a certain fuel level the jets cease to work and the fuel remaining in the bottom continues to burn. The fuel level goes below the ridges on the inner section. The ridges in the material is what produces the "siphon" ability of the stove. Fuel level drops below the ridge....no more siphon/capillary action going on.
Whelp, she sure burns better on a couple mls of fuel than than any other alky stove I've tried. My trangia just absorbs that amount into its internal wick and glows uselessly like an candle.
But then I switched to an eCHS stove because it has a lot more power without sacrificing efficiency.
I read they are difficult to make. Was it easy for you?
Whelp, she sure burns better on a couple mls of fuel than than any other alky stove I've tried. My trangia just absorbs that amount into its internal wick and glows uselessly like an candle.
My version of a no spill simmering Trangia ;-)
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Oh no not another stove another stove to add to the collection...looks good though, lighter than the trangia ?
When are they available to try...I'd love one.
Odd Man Out
10-04-2018, 13:33
I read they are difficult to make. Was it easy for you?
It's harder than punching holes in a cat food can (i.e. Supercat stove), but it was easier than other builds I've seen described. I made a bunch of them until I got the process just right, but the instructions I was working with were not too detailed. Also I was also experimenting with a number of design parameters to see how they affected the stove performance. The angle/number of the jets, the size of the central hole, and the overall height seem to be most critical. No special tools are required, other than a really small drill bit to drill the holes for the flame jets. A hole cutting jig for cutting the central hole would be useful, but I get by with a razor blade and needle nose pliers. As a result, mine are bit ugly but I don't care about that. Once I got one I liked, I optimized the height of the pot stand and the amount of air intakes on the wind screen.
Also, are reported above, the jets keep burning at full power (or nearly full power) until there are just a few seconds of fuel left.
Also, are reported above, the jets keep burning at full power (or nearly full power) until there are just a few seconds of fuel left.
The DIY seem to be better than the Siphon. I like the angled jets for the swirl effect:cool:
.looks good though, lighter than the trangia ?
They weigh 2 ounces less than the Trangias and hold the same amount of fuel, 2.7 oz. of fuel.
They weigh 2 ounces less than the Trangias and hold the same amount of fuel, 2.7 oz. of fuel.
Thanks zelph.