Hardshell Question

[jorge99s]

Do you think that a rain jacket (O.R. Helium2) is a good option for my hard shell layer over my down jacket(MontBell Frost Smoke Parka)? I've never really done much winter backpacking but I have a couple of trips planned this year (Dec & Jan). So I'm trying to see what I have that will work and what I might need to buy.

[chknfngrs]

layering a hard shell with insulation layers like down or primaloft while hiking causes problems with moisture control. I've found that though I do keep warm, the hardshell doesn't let the heat and moisture escape fast enough and my inner insulation layers get and stay wet which is of course no good in cold weather.

I started hiking in a base layer and mid weight insulation layer, and whenever I stop will throw on the heavier sweater or down or primaloft layers for warmth. The hardshell would go on after I stop making the heat, which minimizes the moisture.

[chknfngrs]

I think to directly answer your question you should bring both, but also plan to shed layers while you're hiking to manage sweat content

[garlic08]

I agree with the above. Never say never, but I generally never hike or ski with a rain jacket over down. I might do it on an extremely cold morning in camp, or on a very cold descent. Wearing down while it's raining makes little sense in my experience. Wearing down while exerting oneself requires very careful ventilation. In extreme cold, a breathable shell can even ice up on the inside and stop breathing--watch out for that.

[saltysack]

I've found the helium2 works well over paragoochie cap4 to well below freezing while hiking. Seems to breath well. I wear my montbell Ul down parka over the 2 to sleep, at camp or breaks.


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[MuddyWaters]

You want to wear a vapor barrier UNDER down in deep winter if hiking in it. Controlling moisture is paramount. Fleece...is best for active midlayer for most people.

[colorado_rob]

Don't let folks tell you to never hike in the winter in both a down sweater and a hardshell. I do it all the time in the deep cold when not working too hard. It does depend on how cold it is, and what kind of shape you're in. If you sweat profusely in the deep cold with a down and hardshell combo you're probably working very, very hard, either because of the terrain or your conditioning.

That being said, I do prefer a synthetic insulated jacket vs. a down simply because of the better versatility, meaning I can wear it even when sweating mildly. I wear the Mont Bell Thermawrap a ton during winter hikes, sometimes with the hardshell over it, sometimes not. In deep cold, I might also carry the Mont Bell down sweater to throw on during breaks. Total weight of the synthetic thermawrap PLUS the down sweater is less than a fleece jacket. The combo of the three (synthetic, down and hardshell) is hard to beat for versatility.

[saltysack]

I also find the helium2 compresses my down parka so not as lofty= less warm....I've never winter hiked anywhere other than than Ga-Va.....14* is about my lowest temperature.


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[Dogwood]

Do you think that a rain jacket (O.R. Helium2) is a good option for my hard shell layer over my down jacket(MontBell Frost Smoke Parka)? I've never really done much winter backpacking but I have a couple of trips planned this year (Dec & Jan). So I'm trying to see what I have that will work and what I might need to buy.

It could work but you need to share and think about where you're hiking, the conditions, your hiking modus operandi, what you also are intending to bring along as layers/accessories, etc. wet cold, dry cold, how cold, mixed conditions, etc, alpine, sub alpine, lower elevations, mixed elevations w/great variability, etc, you're knowledge of thermoregulation through ventilating, layering, etc, planning on easy-moderate pace with low-moderate daily mileage at a lower strenuous factor, ie; very short Tip Walter like daily mileage mostly camping rather than hiking to a fast and light mostly on the move even in winter UL Justin Licther/Andrew Skurka modus operandi hiking philosophy, etc

If you're in the habit of hiking fast or labored I'm thinking you are not going to be on the move backpacking very much or for very long in the MB FSP unless it's really cold and even then you'd be walking a tightrope of moisture management to easily overheating. It's many a outdoorsmen's/survivalist perspective that you should avoid sweating in the first place above all else in winter. I agree. It's my goal too. I think Rob said it well or Garlic saying "wearing down while exerting oneself requires very careful ventilation" but read on.

Here's how I think about avoiding sweating in the winter under my usual UL philosophy while still being mostly a mover (hiker) rather than a camper AND HOW I BLUR THE LINES BETWEEN DEDICATED ON THE MOVE APPAREL and DEDICATED IN CAMP APPAREL so the same apparel can be brought into play to be worn more often during BOTH times:

1) have several wts and insulation types of vests and jackets to choose from to address the conditions while also considering my other layers and accessories while also considering conditions This takes some practice and research.

2) since I'm hiking long hrs even during winter's short daylight I will experience a wider range of conditions hence apparel versatility plays a huge factor

3) think 4 highly VERSATILE thinner less bulky lighter layers in terms of not only wt but also volume and warmth rather than choosing one heavier bulky warmer insulation layer and a hardshell that will see limited use while on the move ie; I want to be wearing my insulation layers more often even when on the move. I want versatility! I want to minimize hauling dead wt as a matter of routine as often as possible. I want to bring as many pieces of gear into the warmth equation as often as possible.

On the east coast, say on the AT at 1-4k ft elevs in mixed conditions I like a vest EVEN IN WINTER. Depending on how wet I may switch to a synthetic vest(Patagonia Nano Puff, Montbell Thermawrap, etc) I RARELY to NEVER look at winter warmth from a single main insulation piece when backpacking under my typical modus operandi hiking philosophy even in winter. Can I hike in down? YES! with a vest more often... than a FIXED jacket?.... usually YES! with a vest with a solid DWR and/or hydrophobic down... YES! or a versatile down moisture protective piece like a Lukes Pertex Down Vest w/ 800 fp Hyper Dry down more so http://lukesultralite.com/products/downgear Throw in Lukes down sleeves and I have the versatility of a jacket/vest in one without the wt.

Now, some will say that's not warm enough for winter. On a one insulation piece compared to one insulation piece sure but that's not how I'm in the habit of looking at things as an advanced LD ULer. I'm deeply into total kit integration. Remember my modus operandi AND choice of a thinner less voluminous less warm(per piece verse piece comparison) needed in a 4 piece layering system rather than a two or three layering system. When done right, I can get equal warmth with 4 layers with much greater versatility, with possibly equal or less bulk and wt that I will employ more often during both times-when on the move and in camp - than a 3 layer winter system under my modus operandi! Make up the warmth and at the same time add versatility with two inner BREATHABLE layers say a long sleeved light-mid wt with a deep chest zip base layer and mid layer. Use my hardshell not just for when it's raining or windy but also to avoid convectional heat loss adjusting my pace down slightly taking off the sleeves, unzipping the vest and hardshell for greater breathability, have my beanie and light wt Windstopper gloves in my backpack side pocket, AND ALWAYS ADJUSTING AND READJUSTING ALL my apparel, accessories, and pace to meet conditions and BEFORE SWEATING OUT. I can afford to go lighter wt needing less warmth in my apparel system because I'm mostly hiking being dynamic on the move not static in camp even in winter. When in camp I'm in my sleep system rather soon(within 20-30 mins) even in winter so the in camp warmth is made up in my shelter and sleep system(sleeping bag/quilt). In a dire situation, I wouldn't hesitate to employ my tarp, tent, shelter, bivy, ground cloth, sleep pad, sleeping bag/quilt for insulation when moving by also draping it around me.