Grand Canyon Rim to Rim

[MomOfFive]

I am hoping to go with my husband and our 5 kids to hike Rim to Rim on the kids' Spring Break this coming March (2016). I made a miscalculation on the day I could request a backcountry permit and now I find myself behind the eight ball. :( The South Kaibab and Bright Angel trails are mostly booked so I am looking at alternative routes. However, I am having a really hard time finding the trails that connect together to get me from Rim to Rim. The backcountry permit office suggested I try Hermit (their recommended route for us), South Bass, New Hance or Tanner. On my backcountry permit request form, I have to list which campsites I will be using. Can anyone help me? So far, the only thing I THINK I can decipher is that I can take the Hermit Trail, stay at Boucher Creek the first night, Hermit Creek the second and come out at Hermit's Rest at the end of the trip. And, before this becomes a topic of concern, I hiked 9 days on the AT with 4 of my kids and no husband this summer, so our ability is not in question.

[colorado_rob]

I assume you mean rim to rim to rim, as the North rim access will not be open in March. So, you have to start and finish at the south rim, whichever series of trails you figure out. Are you saying Cottonwood Camp is booked? that one usually doesn't fill in March.

Still, fantastic time to be going, but expect some old snow on the North rim, but usually not too bad by about mid-March. Usually only the top mile or two will be snow packed.

[colorado_rob]

when I said north rim access is closed, I was referring to car access only. It opens in mid may.

[WingedMonkey]

Hermit trail is a favorite and I often recommend it to others.

However....It is not maintained and is somewhat rugged. How experienced is your family?

[HooKooDooKu]

With little hiking experience, my kids had no problem doing the South Kaibab to Bright Angle camp ground, and then the full length of Bright Angle the next day.

With your experience, can you make it down South Kaibab and up to Cottonwood in one day? Spend two nights at Cottonwood (going from Cottonwood to the North rim the 2nd day and back) and then from Cottonwood to South rim the 3rd day.

[CarlZ993]

I'll be there for Spring Break again this year w/ the Scouts (15th trip). I'd go down Hermit Trl instead of Boucher (really nasty) or Tanner (tough as well). Just take the shuttle bus or drive your car to the TH (your permit will give you the gate code to do this; normally closed & locked). Either stay @ Hermit Creek (7.6M) or Monument Creek (8.7M) the first night. I'd opt for Monument Creek. From there, you take Tonto Trl to Indian Gardens (10.7M). Don't count on water (either non-existent, nasty, or radioactive). From Indian Gardens, you decide whether or not you wish to hike out the following day (24M & 3,000' elev gain in 4.6M) or hike down to Bright Angel Camp/Phantom Ranch (~4.6M). From there, it is a long haul up to the S. Rim on either the Bright Angel Trail (thru Indian Gardens again) or S. Kaibab Trl.

Good luck in your permit process. Don't delay. They fill up REALLY fast!

[Shutterbug]

I am hoping to go with my husband and our 5 kids to hike Rim to Rim on the kids' Spring Break this coming March (2016). I made a miscalculation on the day I could request a backcountry permit and now I find myself behind the eight ball. :( The South Kaibab and Bright Angel trails are mostly booked so I am looking at alternative routes. However, I am having a really hard time finding the trails that connect together to get me from Rim to Rim. The backcountry permit office suggested I try Hermit (their recommended route for us), South Bass, New Hance or Tanner. On my backcountry permit request form, I have to list which campsites I will be using. Can anyone help me? So far, the only thing I THINK I can decipher is that I can take the Hermit Trail, stay at Boucher Creek the first night, Hermit Creek the second and come out at Hermit's Rest at the end of the trip. And, before this becomes a topic of concern, I hiked 9 days on the AT with 4 of my kids and no husband this summer, so our ability is not in question.

I will be pleased to respond to your questions; however, I first need to understand what you want to do.

You said that Bright Angel and South Kaibab Trails are booked. The permits are not for trails, they are for backcountry camps. I assume that you mean that Indian Garden and Bright Angel Campgrounds are booked.

As others have said, there is no access to the North Rim that early in the year, so a Rim to Rim in March isn't practical.

Even when Bright Angel Campgroung is full one can usually get a permit to camp near the Clear Creek Trail two miles east of Phantom Ranch. It has been my experience that Clear Creek has openings. Consider doing a hike to Clear Creek as a substitute for the Rim to Rim. Hike down the South Kaibab to the Clear Creek Trail the first day. Camp 2 miles from Phantom Ranch. On day two, hike to Clear Creek. When you are ready, hike back to the campsite near Phantom Ranch, then hike out on the Bright Angel Trail.

[MomOfFive]

Is it possible to camp at the North Rim in March? Or is that closed until May 15 as well? We are open to Cottonwood in one day. I didn't realize it had higher availability but that makes sense since most don't go to the North Rim in March.


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[colorado_rob]

Is it possible to camp at the North Rim in March? Or is that closed until May 15 as well? We are open to Cottonwood in one day. I didn't realize it had higher availability but that makes sense since most don't go to the North Rim in March.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI doubt if you can camp on the NR in March, sorry! HooKooDooKu's itinerary might work for you. Expanding: Leave early to avoid crowds and Mules, hike down the Kaibab trail to river, about 2.5-3 hours, relax a bit at Phantom Ranch, then up to Cottonwood camp, about 3 more hours, 7 miles, relatively gentle grade. Camp the night, next day do a spectacular roundtrip to the North rim and back, about 14 miles, with daypacks, of course, camp another night at Cottonwood. Next day hike all the way out via the Bright Angel trail. It really isn't that bad. 2+ hours down to Phantom, rest up, then 3-4 hours to Indian gardens, have another nice rest there. Finally, 3-4 hours to the South Rim. I've done this more times than I can count (15+?).

Of course all of this hiking is on the two most popular trails, but you should avoid most of the crowds except for your final hike out up the Bright Angel trail. The North BA trail (from Phantom to the North Rim) is simply spectacular, especially above CW camp. Of course the entire corridor is amazing, you can't go wrong in the Grand Canyon. Just booked our early April R-R-R trip.... 14 years running.... well, these days only walking....

[Odd Man Out]

...Even when Bright Angel Campgroung is full one can usually get a permit to camp near the Clear Creek Trail two miles east of Phantom Ranch. It has been my experience that Clear Creek has openings. Consider doing a hike to Clear Creek as a substitute for the Rim to Rim. Hike down the South Kaibab to the Clear Creek Trail the first day. Camp 2 miles from Phantom Ranch. On day two, hike to Clear Creek. When you are ready, hike back to the campsite near Phantom Ranch, then hike out on the Bright Angel Trail.

I didn't realize that at-large camping was allowed in the Clear Creek use area. At what point are you allowed to camp? I haven't been able to find a good map of the use areas on-line. Could Horn Creek or Cremation also be used to break up this hike in or out? I too have been planning a GC hike but not gotten there yet and always looking for options. I worry however that these sites are all require dry camping (not by water) off the corridor trails. The conventional wisdom is that corridor trails are best for GC beginners (which would also include me). I wonder if that would advice would also apply to the OP?

[Coffee]

Winter camping is permitted at the North Rim campground with a wilderness permit. I've never done it myself. But the North Rim campground is one of my favorite developed campgrounds anywhere.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/cg-nr.htm

[Wil]

Clear Creek Trail is a great suggestion. The times mentioned here from South Rim to Cottonwood are for very fast hikers and it would be a shame to race through such a wonderful place. There is going to be ice and snow on the trail from Cottonwood to the North Rim.

If I were committed to try a Rim to Rim to Rim (and with permits for Bright Angel Camp & Indian Garden out of the picture) I would do SRim to Clear Creek Trail (2 mils up & in) for day 1. Backtrack down to NKaibab Trail & to Cottonwood Camp day 2 (with a stopover at Ribbons Falls on the way). A day trip attempt for the NRim & back to Cottonwood for day 3 (and even turning back from near the top is still a wonderful trip). Either a long march out back to SRim or better yet a break night (if you've got time) back up to the same spot on Clear Creek, or at Horn Creek near Indian Garden, or in Use Area AP9 on Utah Flats above Phantom Ranch (which would also be an alternative to a Clear Creek permit on the way in).

[Wil]

Cremation, mentioned above, was never a great resource for this kind of RRR and is now less so with some camping area gerrymandering and campsite destruction by the Kops.

[MomOfFive]

Guys, thanks so much. This is great info. I can't wait to call the Backcountry Permit office tomorrow and see if this will work. Keep the ideas coming!


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[Shutterbug]

Winter camping is permitted at the North Rim campground with a wilderness permit. I've never done it myself. But the North Rim campground is one of my favorite developed campgrounds anywhere.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/cg-nr.htm

The problem with the North Rim isn't so much a permit. It is the ice on the trail. In March, the trail from Roaring Springs to the North Rim is covered with ice (depending on the year.). Four years ago, during the last week of March, I was caught in a significant snow storm on the Bright Angel Trail. Those attempting to make it north of Cottonwood Camp on the North Kaibab had to turn back.

[Shutterbug]

I didn't realize that at-large camping was allowed in the Clear Creek use area. At what point are you allowed to camp? ...
Camping is allowed two miles from the North Kaibab Trail. Most people camp in a flat area south of the Clear Creek Trail at the two mile marker (large cairns on both sides of the trail), or camp at Clear Creek.

[colorado_rob]

The problem with the North Rim isn't so much a permit. It is the ice on the trail. In March, the trail from Roaring Springs to the North Rim is covered with ice (depending on the year.). Four years ago, during the last week of March, I was caught in a significant snow storm on the Bright Angel Trail. Those attempting to make it north of Cottonwood Camp on the North Kaibab had to turn back.A rare year. I was there the first weekend of April myself. Not so much ice as packed snow, with a tad of ice. I've been doing this stretch for 14 years straight and that was a banner year for snow. Most years should be zero problem, just some packed stuff above the Supai tunnel, easily navigable.

[Shutterbug]

I am hoping to go with my husband and our 5 kids to hike Rim to Rim on the kids' Spring Break this coming March (2016). I made a miscalculation on the day I could request a backcountry permit and now I find myself behind the eight ball. :( The South Kaibab and Bright Angel trails are mostly booked so I am looking at alternative routes. However, I am having a really hard time finding the trails that connect together to get me from Rim to Rim. The backcountry permit office suggested I try Hermit (their recommended route for us), South Bass, New Hance or Tanner. On my backcountry permit request form, I have to list which campsites I will be using. Can anyone help me? So far, the only thing I THINK I can decipher is that I can take the Hermit Trail, stay at Boucher Creek the first night, Hermit Creek the second and come out at Hermit's Rest at the end of the trip. And, before this becomes a topic of concern, I hiked 9 days on the AT with 4 of my kids and no husband this summer, so our ability is not in question.
One more comment -- the size of your family limits the campsites available to you. Parties with 6 or less have access to most campsites. Parties of 7 to 11 must use "group sites." Perhaps you could talk the Rangers into not counting one of your children -- it is worth a try. Ask the Ranger, "What is the worst thing that will happen if I get caught with 7 on a six person permit?"

[Shutterbug]

A rare year. I was there the first weekend of April myself. Not so much ice as packed snow, with a tad of ice. I've been doing this stretch for 14 years straight and that was a banner year for snow. Most years should be zero problem, just some packed stuff above the Supai tunnel, easily navigable.
Colorado Rob, when is your hike in 2016? I have a permit for Easter week. My wife and I enjoy attending the Easter Sunrise Service at the Grand Canyon, then hiking into the Canyon.

I agree with you that in most years an experienced hiker can do a rim to rim to rim in March, but I question trying to do it with 5 kids as a first hike in the Grand Canyon. For first-time hikers in the Grand Canyon, I recommend a day hike to Indian Garden. Jumping into a rim to rim to rim as one's first Grand Canyon is risky.

[Dogwood]

Individual and group situations are always in question! What part of the AT did your 4 kids and you do? What time of the yr was it? What was your group's avg daily mileage? How many hrs of the day on that 9 day trip were actually spent on the move?/how many hrs doing other non-hiking things? How did your family and YOU deal with the group logistics on that AT trip ie; on avg how fast does your family get moving in the morn(WHEN it's below freezing?), ages of kids, EVER been to GCNP previously? are you aware of water conditions at that time of the yr? How much time have you allotted for your GCNP trip? Seems you haven't done much research so far. Have you apprised yourself of the typical avg weather in March on NOT ONLY the N. Rim but also the S. Rim? Being from central Fla you need to be aware nights will be below freezing at BOTH the N and S Rims. Fairly certain snow and ice will be on the ground at the N. Rim in the vicinity of the N Kaibab TH. It is not unheard of for ice and/or snow to some degree to exist at the S. Rim in March. Patches of ice, maybe snow linger in shady areas at the rims and to some degree on the trails into April which slows travel especially needed with 5 children in tow on possibly steep trail. No services or motor vehicle access will be open at the N.Rim so as it's been said it's a rim to rim to rim excursion you're looking at.

Unless you and you're family, which includes 5 children, I'm assuming all/mostly adolescents, that's a 7 person party, are exceptionally above the avg in that family situation, I would not advise doing much more than 12 mile days going down to the river from the S. Rim and certainly not heading back up. What others do is one thing and you would be best to consider your situation in all your planning rather than what is appropriate for others. I agree with Shutterbug and would advise it to the OP: "... in most years an experienced hiker can do a rim to rim to rim in March, but I question trying to do it with 5 kids as a first hike in the Grand Canyon. For first-time hikers in the Grand Canyon, I recommend..." something else in March.

I'm also glad to see that Shutterbug brought up the group size situation and regs.

[colorado_rob]

Individual and group situations are always in question! What part of the AT did your 4 kids and you do? What time of the yr was it? What was your group's avg daily mileage? How many hrs of the day on that 9 day trip were actually spent on the move?/how many hrs doing other non-hiking things? How did your family and YOU deal with the group logistics on that AT trip ie; on avg how fast does your family get moving in the morn(WHEN it's below freezing?), ages of kids, EVER been to GCNP previously? are you aware of water conditions at that time of the yr? How much time have you allotted for your GCNP trip? Seems you haven't done much research so far. Have you apprised yourself of the typical avg weather in March on NOT ONLY the N. Rim but also the S. Rim? Being from central Fla you need to be aware nights will be below freezing at BOTH the N and S Rims. Fairly certain snow and ice will be on the ground at the N. Rim in the vicinity of the N Kaibab TH. It is not unheard of for ice and/or snow to some degree to exist at the S. Rim in March. Patches of ice, maybe snow linger in shady areas at the rims and to some degree on the trails into April which slows travel especially needed with 5 children in tow on possibly steep trail. No services or motor vehicle access will be open at the N.Rim so as it's been said it's a rim to rim to rim excursion you're looking at.

Unless you and you're family, which includes 5 children, I'm assuming all/mostly adolescents, that's a 7 person party, are exceptionally above the avg in that family situation, I would not advise doing much more than 12 mile days going down to the river from the S. Rim and certainly not heading back up. What others do is one thing and you would be best to consider your situation in all your planning rather than what is appropriate for others. I agree with Shutterbug and would advise it to the OP: "... in most years an experienced hiker can do a rim to rim to rim in March, but I question trying to do it with 5 kids as a first hike in the Grand Canyon. For first-time hikers in the Grand Canyon, I recommend..." something else in March.
`12 miles? It's like 7 from the SR to the river via the Kaibab trail, another very easy 7 to CW camp. Very easy 14 total miles, even with 5 experienced rug-rats. I do agree though that hiking from CW camp all the way to the SR would be a stretch for 5 kids... I guess I missed the 5-kid thing. I still think first night at CW camp is doable, with some other alternative for last night, closer to SR, like maybe that clear creek area. I'm just excited about first timers seeing the North Rim trail above CW camp; my favorite trail in the Canyon.

Also: Agree, It will definitely be very cold on both rims at night, precisely why I discourage camping on either rim. Anything low-ish in the canyon should be nice and warm, especially of course the bottom (Phantom and those other places mentioned). Also Cottonwood camp; should be nice and warm there.

Also agree there will probably be leftover snow and a tad of ice on the shaded upper south rim trails. Gone entirely in the 1st mile or so.

Finally: PLENTY of water all throughout the main GC corridor. Plenty of TAP water, in fact. In 14 years running the water in the residence above CW camp has only been off once. We always carry tablets as a backup, used them precisely once in 14 years. The creek will of course be flowing like crazy that time of year.

Shutterbug: we're doing early April this year (2016), it flip-flops from late March to early April. I think this time frame is the absolute BEST time to visit the inner canyon. Tons of daylight and not too hot yet, though we have had 90's at Phantom in early April. Most years it's 80's at the bottom then, very pleasant.

[HooKooDooKu]

Also: Agree, It will definitely be very cold on both rims at night, precisely why I discourage camping on either rim. Anything low-ish in the canyon should be nice and warm, especially of course the bottom (Phantom and those other places mentioned). Also Cottonwood camp; should be nice and warm there.
I did a trip down to BA Campground with my kids over spring break (late March) two years ago. Weather seemed 'typical' (i.e. not extreme conditions). We experienced sleet and light snow fall on the South Rim the night before our hike. Temperatures were certainly below freezing as we started down into the canyon the next morning.
(Temps at BA campground were great).

[Dogwood]

I much prefer, and think it wiser, to err on the side of restraint given all I've heard from the OP hence that daily mileage rec FOR THEIR trip. Given more details I'd be open to changing those recs.

It depends on easy as that is subjective although you are correct in saying the shortest trail distance from the S. Rim is from starting at the S. Kaibab TH to Cottonwood CG is 14.2 miles. That comes with conditions though. The S. Kaibab is shorter but also steeper. Some steps too some deep ones at that. With possible ice patchy snow on this steeper descent it would not be my personal rec given a family of 7 with 5 adolescents from FLORIDA on their first trip to the Grand Canyon allowing for lots of the ensuing oooh ahh factor. Even though the top 1 mile or so of the BA is shaded and often will hold some patches of ice and snow it's longer but more gradually graded making the trek from Bright Angel TH at the S. Rim to Cottonwood CG 16.7 miles. More than I'd rec based on what's been shared.

While there will be water some of the tap water spigots are seasonal turned off usually between sometime in Nov to sometime in Mar.

[Shutterbug]

Shutterbug: we're doing early April this year (2016), it flip-flops from late March to early April. I think this time frame is the absolute BEST time to visit the inner canyon. Tons of daylight and not too hot yet, though we have had 90's at Phantom in early April. Most years it's 80's at the bottom then, very pleasant.

I also like March, but I actually prefer November. I am taking three grandsons to Ribbon Falls next week -- my 32nd time to the bottom of the Canyon. This year, I hiked in March and April. Both were great. Last November, I did a rim to rim to rim.

I avoid December thru February due to icy conditions near the rims. I avoid May thru Sept due to heat and lightening; however, one of my favorite hikes was in June. We hiked from Bright Angel to Indain Garden at night.

[Dogwood]

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/weather-condition.htm

Scroll to the bottom of the link and work off the avg temps at the N/S Rims and Inner Canyon in March.

Heck, preferred times are mid March -mid/late June and mid Sept -late Nov/Dec(spent AWESOME Christmas at Phantom Ranch once) but I'll take the GCNP any month I can get there. I've had enjoyable trips Jan and Dec and during the height of summer. I like the heat though. During winter, winter skies over the GC, marginal permit competition, less/no crowds(on non corridor trails), while having the ability to descend through possible snow/ice into IMO IDEAL inner canyon hiking weather is phenomenal!

[futureatwalker]

Echoing what others have said: if at all possible, I would do low mile days.

In my opinion, the Grand Canyon can be much, much tougher than the A.T. Descending is fine, but then you have to climb back out. And this involves thousands of feet of ascent.

[HooKooDooKu]

In my opinion, the Grand Canyon can be much, much tougher than the A.T. Descending is fine, but then you have to climb back out. And this involves thousands of feet of ascent.
If you're an experienced hiker, it's just something you have to take your time with.

When I hiked the South Kiabab down and Bright Angel back up the next day, I had a BMI that put me in the obese category, and my backpacking experience was limited to weekends in the Great Smokey Mountains where I typically limited my hikes to about 8 miles per day. I took my 7yo (who had 1 year experience backpacking with me) and my 11yo (who had 4 years experience backpacking with me). The morning of the hike back up, the 11yo was vomiting (I feared a stomach virus, but must have been some food poisoning).

With that kind of experience, we were able to do the 7 mile hike down in 6 hours, and the 9 mile hike back to the rim the next day in 9 hours.

The OP sounded more experienced and more prepared than I was, so I was thinking she might be able to make the hike to Cottonwood in one day. But that does make for at least a 14 mile trip in one day. So it really depends upon what the OPs experience really is. She said that she did 9 days on the AT. If that was 9 days averaging 10 mpd in GA, TN, NC area... then I think she might be ready for this 14 mile trip (but you better get up early in the morning you have to hike from Cottonwood back to the South Rim). But if that 9 days averaging 6 mpd in MA, Cottonwood is likely out of reach.

[Dogwood]

One person's definition/opinion of experienced hiker does not always match others. The ranks are reduced of who's experienced when you consider a 6000 ft + steep elevation gain/loss that is rather relentless over 7 miles. When one hasn't been to GCNP and experienced that in March it should go without saying, uhh, that individual or group is inexperienced with that.

How well does that compare to an AT hike even in the hardest 7 mile stretch during late spring /fall hence my questions to the OP?

[HooKooDooKu]

One person's definition/opinion of experienced hiker does not always match others. The ranks are reduced of who's experienced when you consider a 6000 ft + steep elevation gain/loss that is rather relentless over 7 miles. When one hasn't been to GCNP and experienced that in March it should go without saying, uhh, that individual or group is inexperienced with that.

How well does that compare to an AT hike even in the hardest 7 mile stretch during late spring /fall hence my questions to the OP?

Because every hiker's experience is different, I'm trying to give as much detail as I can about my situation so the OP has some basis for comparison.
I found that my hikes in the mountains of GSMNP did a lot to help prepare me for GCNP, because the two have similar changes in elevation.
The South Rim is around 7,000' and the Colorado river is about 2,500'; where as Fontana Lake is about 1,700 and the highest GSMNP peaks are around 6,500'.

BTW: The actual distances/elevation changes for a South Kiabab to Cottonwood hike are:
4,780' decent over 7.0 miles followed by a 1,600' ascent over 7.2 miles.

While I was definitely sore after hiking the GC, looking back, I think that back then I could have make the hike from the South Rim to Cottonwood in one day. What I'm not too sure about would be Cottonwood back to the South Rim in one day.

If spots are available, perhaps something a little more doable would be South Rim to Cottonwood, Cottonwood to Indian Gardens, and then Indian Gardens to South Rim. If the distance can be managed, don't finish on Bright Angle, but instead hike Tonto Trail from Indian Gardens back over to South Kaibab. (To the extent you can trust a profile in Google Earth, the path is about 4.5 miles long from Indian Gardens to Tipoff on South Kiabab, with a cumulative elevation loss of 800' and a cumulative elevation gain of 1,100'.)

[Shutterbug]

Just trying to provide helpful info for the OP -- In planning for hikes in the Grand Canyon take into consideration the duffle service that is available between the South Rim and Phantom Ranch. It is expensive, but worth the cost, particularly on the hike out. One can send up to 30 lbs up or down on a mule.

When I do a rim to rim to rim, I carry a full pack only between Phantom Ranch/Brighr Angel and Cottonwood.