View Full Version : How Big of an Issue is Lyme Disease Today on the AT
I'm curious to know how bad Lyme Disease is on the AT. I hiked in 2001 and of the ticks I saw only a few were Deer Ticks. Since then my parents who live in Mass (between Providence and Boston, understandably not near the trail) say there is almost no Dog Ticks and they only see Deer Ticks.
What has it been for you thru-hikers of late? Is it a major concern or blown out of proportion by the media (i.e.. Starbuck Cups).
It is a concern from VA north for the typical NOBO.
I picked it up in MA. I remember several other people who got it too in 2011 when I thrued.
It is a very "big deal" if you get it.
its a mostly curable not fatal disease that, lets be for real, is actually very rare. i think the last time i looked at the numbers a bad year was 50K cases. out of how many millions that live in the region where it is "common"?
that said, you dont "see" the ticks that would cause it because, well, because you mostly cant or barely can see deer ticks. all due respect to your parents, i have to wonder if what theyre really seeing are deer ticks.
I have seen deer ticks.
When deer ticks are gorged, they can be quite big enough to see easily.
squeezebox
11-11-2015, 20:23
The long term consequences of untreated Lyme are pretty nasty.
My concern is if I ever go back and hike the AT again I will go solo and ultralight. That said I will most likely be alone, which means no one to help spot the little buggers. The first time I hiked in 2001 I was in a group and we checked each others backs (the rest of the hard to see places were up to you, ha!)
I really don't want to get sick.
Sandy of PA
11-11-2015, 20:47
Having already contracted Lyme in my own front yard(PA), I take all precautions while hiking. I wear long pants treated by Insect Shield. I use Sawyer home treatment on all outerwear that is not Insect Shield. I treat my pack, shoes, and the screen on my tent. I have yet to see a tick on me while hiking while my companions have removed as many as 50 in one day.
just dad
11-11-2015, 20:55
I second Sandy's use of long pants. I am one of the few who wear long pants and long sleeves, I treat my clothes with Sawyer permethrin, and I tuck my pants into my socks. I have never found a tick on me since following these precautions.
I purchase long pants for bicycling, that have zipper closures at the ankles.
I also wear elastic gaiters. I use mesh hiking shoes and coolmax quarter-length socks to keep my feet cool while wearing the gaiters.
I do not use chemical deterrants. I have a bad reaction to the chemicals.
I admit I avoid places where ticks are prevalent, in the season ticks are prevalent.
In Montana, the tick-carried disease Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever is usually fatal.
The long term consequences of untreated Lyme are pretty nasty.
not sure whether you're referring to untreated acute lyme or whats commonly known as "chronic" lyme disease.
as for size. an adult female is less than 1/4" in size. and its common thinking that lyme disease is typically spread by the much smaller larval ticks.
i hike in shorts and short sleeves and walk through tall grasses without batting an eye. percentage wise, to me, its just not even close to worth worrying about.
took me minute to find, but-
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/transmission/
I purchase long pants for bicycling, that have zipper closures at the ankles.
I also wear elastic gaiters. I use mesh hiking shoes and coolmax quarter-length socks to keep my feet cool while wearing the gaiters.
I do not use chemical deterrants. I have a bad reaction to the chemicals.
I admit I avoid places where ticks are prevalent, in the season ticks are prevalent.
In Montana, the tick-carried disease Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever is usually fatal.
Of the 7,738 cases of RMSF reported to CDC for 1999–2007 through CRFs, 40 case-patients (0.5%) who died were reported. Most fatal case-patients were of white race, non-Hispanic ethnicity, and male sex (Table 2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403778/table/T2/)). The reported median age among patients who died was 45.5 years (range = 1–82 years) with a bimodal age distribution among younger children and older adults (Table 2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403778/table/T2/)). Almost half of the patients with fatal cases died during the summer months (Table 2 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3403778/table/T2/)). Most persons with fatal cases were reported to live in the South
usually fatal?????
Midwest Mike
11-11-2015, 22:19
According to the CDC, there were 33,451 confirmed and probable Lyme cases in 2014. www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html).
For perspective, that is a little more than the NHTSA's estimated number (32,000 plus change) of highway fatalities in 2014.
Of course, it depends where you are. California had 73 cases. Connecticut had 2360.
Hike your own hike, but as for me, it's Insect Shield from hat to long-sleeve shirt to long pants to socks.
its a mostly curable not fatal disease that, lets be for real, is actually very rare. i think the last time i looked at the numbers a bad year was 50K cases. out of how many millions that live in the region where it is "common"?
that said, you dont "see" the ticks that would cause it because, well, because you mostly cant or barely can see deer ticks. all due respect to your parents, i have to wonder if what theyre really seeing are deer ticks. Are you saying death is very rare or that lyme disease is very rare. OP if you get the impression that lyme is very rare then you have the wrong impression. Just read the many articles post on this site. And you will see how unrare it is.
Maybe there is treatment, during the years of that "study" or did it attribute death to a "complication"?
When I lived in Missoula, MT I was warned to stay out of the Bitteroot Mountains due to ticks infested with Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.
Our family hiking, camping and fishing was elsewhere.
Are you saying death is very rare or that lyme disease is very rare. OP if you get the impression that lyme is very rare then you have the wrong impression. Just read the many articles post on this site. And you will see how unrare it is.
its not an impression, its an objective analysis of undeniable fact. 50K cases a year out of a population of several million people is not rare?
According to the CDC, there were 33,451 confirmed and probable Lyme cases in 2014. www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html).
For perspective, that is a little more than the NHTSA's estimated number (32,000 plus change) of highway fatalities in 2014.
Of course, it depends where you are. California had 73 cases. Connecticut had 2360.
Hike your own hike, but as for me, it's Insect Shield from hat to long-sleeve shirt to long pants to socks.
so you read 32,000 cases as cause for alarm?
Sarcasm the elf
11-11-2015, 22:36
its a mostly curable not fatal disease that, lets be for real, is actually very rare. i think the last time i looked at the numbers a bad year was 50K cases. out of how many millions that live in the region where it is "common"?
that said, you dont "see" the ticks that would cause it because, well, because you mostly cant or barely can see deer ticks. all due respect to your parents, i have to wonder if what theyre really seeing are deer ticks.
Huh?
Having been diagnosed with active Lyme via blood test more than once, yes, it is a big deal.
You may also want to double check your tick identification, deer ticks are quite easy to see if you look carefully. They do go through a nymph stage that are very small and can be more easily missed, but most of the ones I'vw been bitten by are between the size of a poppe seed and a sesame seed, which are easy enough to spot (or to miss) depending on how carefully you look for them.
Huh?
Having been diagnosed with active Lyme via blood test more than once, yes, it is a big deal.
You may also want to double check your tick identification, deer ticks are quite easy to see if you look carefully. They do go through a nymph stage that are very small and can be more easily missed, but most of the ones I'vw been bitten by are between the size of a poppe seed and a sesame seed, which are easy enough to spot (or to miss) depending on how carefully you look for them.
you live in a state of over 3 million people where in 2014, 2360 of those people had confirmed or probable cases of lyme. lets see, thats .78% of the population who contracted an easily curable deive. sorry, i have much better things to worry about than that. good for any of you who's life is so devoid of any real concern that that is what you worry about.
you live in a state of over 3 million people where in 2014, 2360 of those people had confirmed or probable cases of lyme. lets see, thats .78% of the population who contracted an easily curable deive. sorry, i have much better things to worry about than that. good for any of you who's life is so devoid of any real concern that that is what you worry about.
Man get with the program. 3mil are not hiking the trail. So I don't think you can use your stats the way you are using them.
Man get with the program. 3mil are not hiking the trail. So I don't think you can use your stats the way you are using them.
they arent **MY** stats. they are the Center for Disease Control's stats.
if someone has stats for how many people hike the AT north of the mason dixon line and how many of those people get confirmed cases of lyme while hiking, id love to hear them. if it were 5% of AT hikers i'd be shocked, and even at a 5% i cant bring myself to worry about it in the least.
There are 30,000 deaths each year from car accidents.
We do not consider that rare. In fact, we take every precaution we do not get killed in a car accident: we have traffic signs, stoplights, caution lights, road signs, seat belts, non-shattering windshield glass, standards for headlights, tires, etc. and etc.
Sarcasm the elf
11-11-2015, 23:08
you live in a state of over 3 million people where in 2014, 2360 of those people had confirmed or probable cases of lyme. lets see, thats .78% of the population who contracted an easily curable deive. sorry, i have much better things to worry about than that. good for any of you who's life is so devoid of any real concern that that is what you worry about.
You understand the concept of conditional risk, correct? To say only "x" number of people are infected is irrelevant when only a small percentage of the population is routinely exposed. I could tell you that less than 100 Americans die from lightning strikes each year, but that doesn't make hiking above treeline in a thunderstorm any safer.
Most of my state lives in cities where there exposure to ticks hovers around zero, and most of those who live in the suburbs are fat and lazy and won't come in contact with a tick unless it is between their front door and their mailbox. Those of us who actually spend time in the woods are exponentially more at risk and given that people hiking the A.T. in southern New England are commonly bitten by deer ticks this is a very real concern. It's a horrible crappy disease which you clearly haven't experienced and it's sad to see you trying to downplay it by lying with statistics.
Also, Lyme is not easily "curable" as you put it. If caught early then treatment with antibiotics is highly effective (the antibiotics themselves are loaded with side effects and suck to take), however if the disease is left undiagnosed it does lasting damage that is not reversed by treatment. Taking basic precautions such as permethrin treated pants and daily checks can prevent a lot of misery. Further every hiker should be familiar with both of the bullseye rash that accompanies some but not most infections as well as to know that if they are hit with sudden flu symptoms accompanied by joint pain then they need to get seen by a doctor quickly and tested.
tdoczi,
I will say it:
We have dear friends, members in this forum, who have tragic circumstances in their lives right in line with your line of thinking.. please refrain from promoting your point-of-view in a thru-hike long trail backpacking forum, where people have more exposure than most.
You understand the concept of conditional risk, correct? To say only "x" number of people are infected is irrelevant when only a small percentage of the population is routinely exposed. I could tell you that less than 100 Americans die from lightning strikes each year, but that doesn't make hiking above treeline in a thunderstorm any safer.
Most of my state lives in cities where there exposure to ticks hovers around zero, and most of those who live in the suburbs are fat and lazy and won't come in contact with a tick unless it is between their front door and their mailbox. Those of us who actually spend time in the woods are exponentially more at risk and given that people hiking the A.T. in southern New England are commonly bitten by deer ticks this is a very real concern. It's a horrible crappy disease which you clearly haven't experienced and it's sad to see you trying to downplay it by lying with statistics.
Also, Lyme is not easily "curable" as you put it. If caught early then treatment with antibiotics is highly effective (the antibiotics themselves are loaded with side effects and suck to take), however if the disease is left undiagnosed it does lasting damage that is not reversed by treatment. Taking basic precautions such as permethrin treated pants and daily checks can prevent a lot of misery. Further every hiker should be familiar with both of the bullseye rash that accompanies some but not most infections as well as to know that if they are hit with sudden flu symptoms accompanied by joint pain then they need to get seen by a doctor quickly and tested.
knock yourself out, i'm not sweating it.
again, anyone who has actual statistics related to prevalence among people who hike i'd seriously love to hear them. hearsay and fear spreading doesnt interest me.
lets say every last case in CT in 2014 was contracted by people hiking. how many people do you think went hiking in the state of CT in 2014? give me your best guess
There is nothing wrong with precautions, or with prudence.
I didn't see any fearmongering. I do see callousness.
tdoczi,
I will say it:
We have dear friends, members in this forum, who have tragic circumstances in their lives right in line with your line of thinking.. please refrain from promoting your point-of-view in a thru-hike long trail backpacking forum, where people have more exposure than most.
my "point of view" is nothing more than statistics and my own personal response to them. the OP asked a question, he is getting a counter viewpoint. he will then make up his own mind on how he wants to proceed.
There is nothing wrong with precautions, or with prudence.
not always true. are you not aware of the ramifications of reckless overuse of antibiotics, and that some people in the hiking community carry the antibiotics for lyme disease with them in case of tick byte?
Really? I am a vet.
There is "no way" I could get the VA to hand out antibiotics, and my private MD would never do it either.
The fact is, hikers are atypical for the amount of exposure to ticks and thru-hikers more atypical.
I would say that increases your chance of getting an infected tick and that statistic would be more than a random chance of death by car accident, much more so, of injury by car accident, because of the sample size: nearly every adult drives a car but hikers are a smaller sample and hikers have more exposure than the general public.
Sarcasm the elf
11-11-2015, 23:33
According to the CDC, there were 33,451 confirmed and probable Lyme cases in 2014. www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html (http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/reportedcases_statelocality.html).
For perspective, that is a little more than the NHTSA's estimated number (32,000 plus change) of highway fatalities in 2014.
Of course, it depends where you are. California had 73 cases. Connecticut had 2360.
Hike your own hike, but as for me, it's Insect Shield from hat to long-sleeve shirt to long pants to socks.
Since you mention the CDC, their actual estimation is 300,000 cases per year:
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/humancases.html
To improve public health, CDC wants to know how many people are actually diagnosed with Lyme disease each year and for this reason has conducted two studies:
Project 1 (Lyme Disease Testing by Large Commercial Laboratories in the United States (http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/59/5/676?ijkey=JvyWcwRMpPmKo&keytype=ref&siteid=cid)) estimated the number of people who tested positive for Lyme disease based on data obtained from a survey of clinical laboratories. Researchers estimated that 288,000 (range 240,000–444,000) infections occur among patients for whom a laboratory specimen was submitted in 2008.
Project 2 (Incidence of Clinician-Diagnosed Lyme Disease, United States, 2005–2010 (http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/21/9/15-0417_article)) estimated the number of people diagnosed with Lyme diseasebased on medical claims information from a large insurance database. In this study, researchers estimated that 329,000 (range 296,000–376,000) cases of Lyme disease occur annually in the United States.
Results of these studies suggest that the number of people diagnosed with Lyme disease each year in the United States is around 300,000. Notably, these estimates do not affect our understanding of the geographic distribution of Lyme disease. Lyme disease cases are concentrated in the Northeast and upper Midwest, with 14 states accounting for over 96% of cases reported to CDC. The results obtained using the new estimation methods mirror the geographic distribution of cases that is shown by national surveillance.
Really? I am a vet.
There is "no way" I could get the VA to hand out antibiotics, and my private MD would never do it either.
The fact is, hikers are atypical for the amount of exposure to ticks and thru-hikers more atypical.
I would say that increases your chance of getting an infected tick and that statistic would be more than a random chance of death by car accident, much more so, of injury by car accident, because of the sample size: nearly every adult drives a car but hikers are a smaller sample and hikers have more exposure than the general public.
yes, really. look around these boards you will see ample reference to it.
for sake of argument, lets say youre right, that i have a better chance of getting infected by a tick than dying in a car accident. are you saying infection with lyme disease is in some way even remotely equivalent to death in a car accident? seriously? i'm sorry, its overwhelmingly a curable, flu-like disease. can it have long term consequences that are very unpleasant? sure, but now we're talking about something even rarer. i dont have stats for it, but out of those 2000 some odd cases, how many do you think show long term effects? even if it is half (it isnt, not even close) now we are down to 1000.
Do a google search of Appalachian Trail Conservancy lyme disease and you will find some good information including a study done along the AT. https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-appalachian-trail-ford-2/
Since you mention the CDC, their actual estimation is 300,000 cases per year:
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/humancases.html
300,000? all hikers?
but in all seriousness, ok, lets look at 300,000 cases. lets limit it to the populations of NJ, NY, CT, MA, VT, NH, and ME. thats 300,000 out of of about 29 million by my rough estimate.
do people get lyme disease? obviously. its real, it exists. is it more common among people who actually go outside? absolutely. but that said, as someone else in this board has pointed out, outside can be in your backyard just as easily as in the woods. the truth is the odds are against you getting it. further, if you do happen to get it, in all likelihood you re going to take a course of antibiotics, be cured, and get on with your life without any repercussions. are there some unfortunate cases in which things dont go quite so smoothly? of course there are. but now we're down in an extremely low percentage. thats not to say it doesnt happen, but i just question the wisdom of whether or not its really something to worry about.
Do a google search of Appalachian Trail Conservancy lyme disease and you will find some good information including a study done along the AT. https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-appalachian-trail-ford-2/
odd that this study seems to have included (i could be wrong, but im fairly sure im not) collection of ticks that dont carry lyme disease, and that there is no mention of how many collected ticks actually were carrying lyme. did he not test them? seems silly to have not done so.
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 01:14
I went to my Dr a month ago or so. I'm 62. He crunched some numbers into a formula, he told me my 10 year risk of a heart attack was 12%. I did not yell at him to prove his formula. I asked him if I could cut the risk in 1/2. He said no. maybe to 7% I asked him what do I need to do. I've been trying to do that stuff. And yea I feel better too.
Until the big red S appears on your chest on it's own. I'm not going to believe you're Superman.
Seriously, I wish you a long happy life. But you have to change your attitude for that to happen.
Peace and prosperity to you.
Forget the screwball, he's gotta be trolling.
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 02:53
not sure whether you're referring to untreated acute lyme or whats commonly known as "chronic" lyme disease.
as for size. an adult female is less than 1/4" in size. and its common thinking that lyme disease is typically spread by the much smaller larval ticks.
i hike in shorts and short sleeves and walk through tall grasses without batting an eye. percentage wise, to me, its just not even close to worth worrying about.
If you don't know the difference between acute and long term consequences we can go there, but it might be easier if you go to your local kindergarten teacher and ask her to explain it to you.
Tdoczi,
We arent running around our homes in a panic like our hair is on fire. but completely blowing it off is just foolish. Im confused as to why you are even present in this thread. The OP asked for lyme disease issues, not how much you dont care about your health.
Traveler
11-12-2015, 06:57
If someone does not feel the risk of contracting Lyme disease is high or the consequences of failure when you do contract the disease is low, then there is really no need to minimize exposure. Others may feel mitigation is a better route and should take any precautions they feel are appropriate. This would be similar to treating/filtering water.
Seems more like a silly conversation in search of an argument.
Tdoczi,
We arent running around our homes in a panic like our hair is on fire. but completely blowing it off is just foolish. Im confused as to why you are even present in this thread. The OP asked for lyme disease issues, not how much you dont care about your health.
the OP asked for opinions as to whether or not it was a major concern. my opinion is that it is not. the OP has read all of yours, he has read mine. he can and will make up his own mind. its really very simple.
If someone does not feel the risk of contracting Lyme disease is high or the consequences of failure when you do contract the disease is low, then there is really no need to minimize exposure. Others may feel mitigation is a better route and should take any precautions they feel are appropriate. This would be similar to treating/filtering water.
Seems more like a silly conversation in search of an argument.
agreed. but apparently some seem to think a decision to not worry about contracting lyme disease is foolhardy. sort of speaks volumes.
If you don't know the difference between acute and long term consequences we can go there, but it might be easier if you go to your local kindergarten teacher and ask her to explain it to you.
i do know the difference, do you? if one contracts lyme disease and shows all the classic telltale symptoms and ignores them and never gets treatment, there is one set of long term consequences. and they are rather nasty. on the other hand, if someone does receive treatment, in some cases, years later there are a completely different set of symptoms that appear and become chronic that some blame on the previous contraction of lyme disease. these 2 problems are not the same thing at all.
I went to my Dr a month ago or so. I'm 62. He crunched some numbers into a formula, he told me my 10 year risk of a heart attack was 12%. I did not yell at him to prove his formula. I asked him if I could cut the risk in 1/2. He said no. maybe to 7% I asked him what do I need to do. I've been trying to do that stuff. And yea I feel better too.
Until the big red S appears on your chest on it's own. I'm not going to believe you're Superman.
Seriously, I wish you a long happy life. But you have to change your attitude for that to happen.
Peace and prosperity to you.
my life is likely to be just as long and prosperous as most other's, whether i wear long pants and and sleeves when hiking or not. but no, sadly i am not superman and will die eventually.
a heart attack can kill you. lyme disease? not so much.
Traveler
11-12-2015, 07:57
agreed. but apparently some seem to think a decision to not worry about contracting lyme disease is foolhardy. sort of speaks volumes.
Again, its similar to filtering/treating water. Some do not see it as an issue at all and just drink, others may have suffered adverse consequences and treat all their water. It does seem foolhardy to ignore various dangers that can be easily mitigated, when ignoring them completely may be more so. It all comes down to ones risk comfort.
Again, its similar to filtering/treating water. Some do not see it as an issue at all and just drink, others may have suffered adverse consequences and treat all their water. It does seem foolhardy to ignore various dangers that can be easily mitigated, when ignoring them completely may be more so. It all comes down to ones risk comfort.
i treat my water. i'm very nonobsessive about it, frankly sometimes sloppy about it to the point where i often consider i should maybe just not bother. despite still at least attempting to treat it, i contracted giardia about 2 years ago. it was unpleasant, but i got treatment for it, it went away and life went on. i'm aware others do not bother treating their water. more power to them. and i suspect that if one is very careful and diligent about how and from where one collects their water, they will probably be absolutely fine. i just not to spend my energy on becoming more expert on water sources and collection. not worth it to me. just as walking around covered in chemical covered clothes seems not worth it. i dont even use insect repellant, i just let the bugs have at me. its all good.
i'm still every bit as sloppy in treating my water, and if i found out tomorrow i had lyme disease i'd still go hiking in shorts next summer. life is too short to worry about every little thing. lyme disease isnt a heart attack, it isnt a fatal car crash and it isnt being struck by lightning.
Offshore
11-12-2015, 08:39
they arent **MY** stats. they are the Center for Disease Control's stats.
if someone has stats for how many people hike the AT north of the mason dixon line and how many of those people get confirmed cases of lyme while hiking, id love to hear them. if it were 5% of AT hikers i'd be shocked, and even at a 5% i cant bring myself to worry about it in the least.
But it is **YOUR** misinterpretation of the CDC's stats...
Pedaling Fool
11-12-2015, 09:28
The thing about Lyme disease is that it's increasing see here http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/casesbyyear.html
So what ever the number is, unlike other stats that number is changing and it's going in the upward direction. The other thing about Lyme disease, regardless of your chance of contracting this disease as an American, those chances are greatly increased as an AT hiker. I know of several hikers medically diagnosed with this disease.
So for the OP, yes this is a major concern for hikers.
Offshore
11-12-2015, 09:38
The thing about Lyme disease is that it's increasing see here http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/chartstables/casesbyyear.html
So what ever the number is, unlike other stats that number is changing and it's going in the upward direction. The other thing about Lyme disease, regardless of your chance of contracting this disease as an American, those chances are greatly increased as an AT hiker. I know of several hikers medically diagnosed with this disease.
So for the OP, yes this is a major concern for hikers.
I was talking to my internist a couple of weeks ago and he said they are seeing "unprecedented" numbers of Lyme cases this year. He said the majority were from backyard/gardening and very few in outdoor enthusiasts. He speculated that the latter knew of the risks and the means of prevention. (I may start wearing my InsectShield clothing when doing leaf cleanup having heard this.) The irony is that the Lyme disease "deniers" here act as if its a real hassle to reduce your risk of exposure. InsectShield clothing and/or treating your clothing and gear with permethrin is all it takes. This is a simple added step that does nothing to diminish the outdoor experience (unless you're living a "rugged individualist" fantasy).
Pedaling Fool
11-12-2015, 09:52
I was talking to my internist a couple of weeks ago and he said they are seeing "unprecedented" numbers of Lyme cases this year. He said the majority were from backyard/gardening and very few in outdoor enthusiasts. He speculated that the latter knew of the risks and the means of prevention. I can see that, as Lyme disease cases increase hikers may become very good at preventing. Sort of like hypothermia, many get it in the summer, because their guard against it is down, but hikers in the winter are pretty good at avoiding hypothermia.
As for gardeners, I guess that depends on area. I'm always in my garden and I regularly collect leaves from others to mulch in my yard (my yard is mostly like a woodland area, with very little grass). I'm always very keen to look for ticks (having caught Lyme disease in 2006) and have yet to find any, but I'll keep looking...
P.S. I also think that the medical community is behind the eight ball on this disease, but they'll catch up and one day this will not be much of a concern, with a shot or something...
But it is **YOUR** misinterpretation of the CDC's stats...
by all means, either cite me specific stats about the prevalence of lyme disease amongst AT hikers (or hikers in general) or give me your reasonable best guess as to what it might be. mine is 5% at most.
I was talking to my internist a couple of weeks ago and he said they are seeing "unprecedented" numbers of Lyme cases this year. He said the majority were from backyard/gardening and very few in outdoor enthusiasts. He speculated that the latter knew of the risks and the means of prevention. (I may start wearing my InsectShield clothing when doing leaf cleanup having heard this.) The irony is that the Lyme disease "deniers" here act as if its a real hassle to reduce your risk of exposure. InsectShield clothing and/or treating your clothing and gear with permethrin is all it takes. This is a simple added step that does nothing to diminish the outdoor experience (unless you're living a "rugged individualist" fantasy).
you do what you need to do, and i'll not do what i don't need to do. and the OP will, like all of us, decide for himself.
agreed?
Offshore
11-12-2015, 10:42
you do what you need to do, and i'll not do what i don't need to do. and the OP will, like all of us, decide for himself.
agreed?
He should do so using real data that is not subjected to statistical gymnastics in an attempt to prove a point or fit an ideology.
He should do so using real data that is not subjected to statistical gymnastics in an attempt to prove a point or fit an ideology.
i'm sure he'll decide for himself whether or not thats what i have done.
He should do so using real data that is not subjected to statistical gymnastics in an attempt to prove a point or fit an ideology.
and by all means, do supply the OP, me, and the rest of us, with "real data." seriously, i am interested, as we all are.
i'm the only one who has posted any data of any kind, real, fake, or otherwise. well, sarcasm also posted something, to be fair. its an interesting part of this that i do intend to explore further and see how they arrived at the number of 300,000. it is not clear how they did so at a glance, however.
The Solemates
11-12-2015, 11:07
I used to blow off Lyme as if it was nothing. It is no exaggeration to say that I have had hundreds, if not thousands, of ticks on me during my life. I've always lived in wooded areas and spent a lot of time working outdoors. This past summer I contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. I can tell you it aint no joke.
Offshore
11-12-2015, 11:17
and by all means, do supply the OP, me, and the rest of us, with "real data." seriously, i am interested, as we all are.
i'm the only one who has posted any data of any kind, real, fake, or otherwise. well, sarcasm also posted something, to be fair. its an interesting part of this that i do intend to explore further and see how they arrived at the number of 300,000. it is not clear how they did so at a glance, however.
Looking forward to see what you come up with next.
I used to blow off Lyme as if it was nothing. It is no exaggeration to say that I have had hundreds, if not thousands, of ticks on me during my life. I've always lived in wooded areas and spent a lot of time working outdoors. This past summer I contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. I can tell you it aint no joke.
i dont know much about that disease, it might be horrible. i'm not sure what that means about lyme disease though.
Looking forward to see what you come up with next.
so you have no data of any kind to share then?
If you thru hike the AT, you most likely will encounter someone who has contracted lyme disease, norovirus, and/or giardia. A prudent hiker should be aware of these three risks on the trail and respond appropriately.
I have a question... about the ticks that carry Lyme (deer ticks only I presume?)... are they just out in the summer time or are they a year round issue? Same question for RMSF. Usually a good frost or two kills most summer bugs, but not so sure about these.
To hell with Lyme, how about Ehrlichia (http://www.cdc.gov/ehrlichiosis/symptoms/)about half of the people who develop ehrlichiosis may not even remember being bitten by a tick. Yes that was me never even knew what hit me until I ended up in the hospital in Hagerstown, Md. being treated for overhydration and heatstroke. See the one nice thing about ehrlichiosis in adults there is no rash or even a sign like a bullseye from the tick bite that was my case. With a blood pressure of 80 over 40 the last thing on the ER doctor's mind was a tick bite as I showed no outward signs of being bit. So after 24 hours in the hospital and getting my blood pressure back up I was released from the hospital and got on a airplane to be checked out by my Dr. at the VA and boy was I glad I did she is the one that ordered the test for Ehrlichiosis and Lyme. The Lyme came back positive like most lyme test do so she ordered a western blot test which is the key test in finding out that you have Lyme well mine came back positive for Lyme. We still had to what on my ehrlichiosis test to come back as it is a total different test called IFA (indirect fluorescent antibody) test which takes two weeks or at least it did for the VA.
So from one tick or two different ticks I will never know I spent 28 days on doxycycline and to this day I still have blood markers of ehrlichiosis in my blood and my doctor says I will most likely have them for the rest of my life. This all happened at the end of May and I still have chronic pain from it and learning to live with it oh well my problem.
The one thing that I learned is that you can ask many hikers and they will say they know someone that got lyme because there blood test says they did or the doctor says they have the symptoms of it so they give them doxycycline there is only one true test that will tell you that you have lyme. So unless someone tells me the name of that test I take it for granted that they were just being treated for lyme, This is very common on the east coast give them doxycycline and send them on there way and say you have lyme and good luck.
Tdoczi, I would also like to know how they get to a number of 300,000 is it from the first test which gives many false positives or is it the western blot test or a combination of both.
Anyway sorry about my rambling and as I prepare for my 2016 thru-hike I will be much better prepared for ANY tick bite and no I will not be carrying any doxycycline just long pants with permethrin soaked in.
I have a question... about the ticks that carry Lyme (deer ticks only I presume?)... are they just out in the summer time or are they a year round issue? Same question for RMSF. Usually a good frost or two kills most summer bugs, but not so sure about these.
rather than answer and risk being accused of doing something deceptive and dishonest again by doing so, i will just say you raise a very good, very relevant point and the answer to your question is readily found if you look for it.
The one thing that I learned is that you can ask many hikers and they will say they know someone that got lyme because there blood test says they did or the doctor says they have the symptoms of it so they give them doxycycline there is only one true test that will tell you that you have lyme. So unless someone tells me the name of that test I take it for granted that they were just being treated for lyme, This is very common on the east coast give them doxycycline and send them on there way and say you have lyme and good luck.
Tdoczi, I would also like to know how they get to a number of 300,000 is it from the first test which gives many false positives or is it the western blot test or a combination of both.
there is much wisdom in what you say here, and i am fairly sure the point you raise and the question you ask are very much related.
Tdoczi, I would also like to know how they get to a number of 300,000 is it from the first test which gives many false positives or is it the western blot test or a combination of both.
actually, i would think a positive test on EITHER would be reported in official hard statistics and not a matter of speculation and approximation.
handlebar
11-12-2015, 12:36
Unlike tdoczi, apparently, I have personal knowledge of Lyme disease since I contracted it somewhere in VA on the AT in 2006.
Should the OP be worried about it? No.
Should the OP be able to recognize the symptoms so that she/he can identify it if he/she should happen to contract it? Definitely YES!
About half the cases do NOT present with the typical rash. Rather, they have symptoms resembling the flu: mild fever, aches and pains, malaise, etc. That was my case: no bullseye rash, but the flu symptoms. The symptoms first appeared when I reached Lehigh Gap on my nobo thru. I felt abnormally tired. Since I traveled home for a wedding a few days later from Delaware Water Gap, I was able to see my personal physician without an appointment by showing up at his office when it opened at 7am. He was skeptical that my symptoms were Lyme, but gave me a prescription in case. Lyme was confirmed by blood test (which often notoriously leads to false negatives). My doctor left a voice mail on my cell phone confirming the diagnosis ("Good call on the Lyme", he said) and warning me to complete the entire course (21 days) of the doxycycline he prescribed which has cured the disease. Among the people I hiked with in 2006, I saw three cases of Lyme out of perhaps 75 hikers with whom I came in contact from VA north on the AT. That's a 4% incidence.
One of those cases, hitched out to a clinic in Massachusetts only to be seen by a Physician's Assistant who told the young lady it was "in her mind". That same evening, the woman had an obvious bullseye rash on her thigh and a high fever. She was evacuated by canoe and ambulance and treated. Hers is not an unusual situation as many physicians are not aware of the Lyme symptoms.
Failure to treat Lyme in its initial stage can lead to "advanced" Lyme with very serious consequences. The bacteria that causes Lyme (borellia burgdorferi) is a spirochete, the same family as the bacteria that causes syphilis, which also has very serious long-term consequences if initial symptoms are left untreated. You can check out this WebMD link for the symptoms that present during the stages of Lyme disease: http://www.webmd.com/arthritis/tc/stages-of-lyme-disease-topic-overview
What to do about the risk is an appropriate question? I believe it is prudent to treat socks, shoes, and gaiters with permethrin. I also treat my kilt and the Chopat knee braces I wear with permethrin. I do not wear long pants nor long-sleeve shirts as they would be far too hot for me. Second, one should do daily tick checks. This may require carrying a small mirror. Finally, be aware of the symptoms and seek treatment should they present.
Moosling
11-12-2015, 12:47
This is why its so important for Snakes to be on and around the trail or in the wild in general, Snakes tremendously help to control the rodent populations which are a main tick carrier.
Lyme was confirmed by blood test (which often notoriously leads to false negatives).
care to expand on this point? another poster has mentioned that a certain test frequently shows a false positive. i have heard of this, not just with lyme, but with other diseases. what sort of test are you referring to, and what is the supposed explanation for the high rate of false negatives?
presumptive diagnosis of disease, any disease, not just lyme, is something i always find interesting. when i had giardia i knew i had it. i so zero reason to take a test to prove what was obvious. on the other hand, a high fever and other such generic symptoms can be declared a "false negative" for pretty much anything. i would think (hope) there is a clinical definition for a false positive (perhaps bullseye rash observed after known and confirmed lyme bite, but test shows negative?) and would wonder if all of the false negatives and presumed diagnosis actually meet that standard or not.
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 14:02
The accuracy of medical tests is a very big issue. False negative and false positives both, can have consequences beyond the lawyers involved. Imagine getting lyme, syphilis, etc. and getting a neg test. What do you do when the much more serious symptoms show up years later? That's why there is so much "here take this just in case" happening. Yea the companies continue to work on the accuracy, particularly as the disease incidence increases it becomes more cost effective. Look at Aids testing as an example. If I were a Dr. I'ld give 100 people doxycycline before I missed 1 false neg test. Some people may consider that antibiotic abuse.
A person can make the argument that presumptive diagnosis is not really diagnosis, at least until you get it right.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I did not plan to get so many panties in a bunch. Like most I've been confused to the effects and curability of the disease and me asking my original question was to shed some light on the issue.
Should the fear of getting lyme disease stop me from a second AT thru-hike, NO. As a super active person I fear missing the symptoms and later in life paying for it. I have to weigh the risks of doing something I already did against doing others things I haven't, which I might do in the future.
Thanks again.
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 15:46
And you might consider getting tested when you get back from your trip, just because.
No reason to do the Lady McBeth thing.
3 million people riding in cars, walking on sidewalks (if that), and "couch potatoes" watching the tv.. while only some ride horses, pet the dog or cat that get outdoors in tall weeds, for example, or they actually get outdoors to cut the lawn, rake leaves.. their children play on school playgrounds or groomed sports fields, or, not at all.
Hikers hike on not always groomed trails, in fact, hikers traverse tall grass, push thru overhanging branches and overgrown brush, sit on the ground, lay down on the ground (frequently, not on a ground cloth or tarp or tent) and pet wild ponies or pick up stuff they find on the ground.
How many of 3 million do that?
..and if you are the one that gets tick-borne disease, how about your pseudo-knowledge of statistical samples and statistics, then?
In fact, your "attitude" is quite prevalent recently, and, is the reason I no longer do rescue-work.. an "attitude-adjustment" is indicated, not rescue, when I see a walking "Darwin award" who seems convinced you are not one of the sniveling and fearful idiots that use reasonable precautions.
..and if you are the one that gets tick-borne disease, how about your pseudo-knowledge of statistical samples and statistics, then?
In fact, your "attitude" is quite prevalent recently, and, is the reason I no longer do rescue-work.. an "attitude-adjustment" is indicated, not rescue, when I see a walking "Darwin award" who seems convinced you are not one of the sniveling and fearful idiots that use reasonable precautions.
if i get lyme disease? i will chalk it up to bad luck and much like i did with giardia, i will get it treated and go back to what i was doing. no biggie.
i'm not sure what attitude you're referring to. you seem to almost be comparing me to people who recklessly get lost because of their own carelessness and need to be rescued as a result. if so, my response to that is something not fit to say in public.
if i get lyme disease? i will chalk it up to bad luck and much like i did with giardia, i will get it treated and go back to what i was doing. no biggie.
It might not be that easy, some people seem to never get over it even with aggressive treatment.
It might not be that easy, some people seem to never get over it even with aggressive treatment.
you are correct, of course. unlike how some people have tried to paint what ive been saying, i dont "deny" any of this, just question whether it is really something to get all that worried about.
so to take the hypothetical someone posed further- what if i get lyme disease and am one of the people for whom it never seems to go away... ok, so sucks to be me then, and the point is...???
i'm not operating from a point of uninformed ignorance and not advising anyone to do so. i have knowledge and i use it to make up my own mind. that the conclusion ive reached for myself seems offensive to some people is really quite the curiosity. or maybe im just not supposed to share it because someone else might decide to agree with me?
MuddyWaters
11-12-2015, 19:07
you are correct, of course. unlike how some people have tried to paint what ive been saying, i dont "deny" any of this, just question whether it is really something to get all that worried about.
so to take the hypothetical someone posed further- what if i get lyme disease and am one of the people for whom it never seems to go away... ok, so sucks to be me then, and the point is...???
i'm not operating from a point of uninformed ignorance and not advising anyone to do so. i have knowledge and i use it to make up my own mind. that the conclusion ive reached for myself seems offensive to some people is really quite the curiosity. or maybe im just not supposed to share it because someone else might dec)ide to agree with me?
When your only other option is to stay home, you just go , be prudent, and deal with it if it happens. Thats all anyone can do. Its all anyone does.
..share?
It is just that you haven't been expressing an opinion.
You have been aggressively expounding an argument, a specious argument, because you refuse how statistics works: statistical samples and relevant statistical means, including standards of how to "do" statistics.
If it is your "choice" why try to impose it on others with specious arguments?
We live in a world of risks.
Everyone makes up their own mind.
..share?
It is just that you haven't been expressing an opinion.
You have been aggressively expounding an argument, a specious argument, because you refuse how statistics works: statistical samples and relevant statistical means, including standards of how to "do" statistics.
If it is your "choice" why try to impose it on others with specious arguments?
you need to review this thread i think. it went something like this-
OP- is lyme disease a real concern or is trumped up and exaggerated?
me- trumped up and exaggerated. i dont worry about it.
everyone else- what!?!?!?! are you crazy!?!?!? thats nonsense!!!!! how can you say such a thing!?!?!?!?
me- well here, let me tell you...
have i told anyone what to do? have i tried to convince anyone not to take precautions? no, you want to walk around in long pants and sleeves in august thats all you. but as much as you dont like me trying to convince others not to do it, i dont particularly like others trying to convince people to do it.
moving beyond that, to a more serious extension of this (that you question if it exists, but it does, people on this very board have said they do it, though thankfully, not many) if a hiker is walking around with a prescription antibiotic and starts taking it because he/she has been bitten by a tick, sorry, that person is acting foolishly and selfishly and is, frankly, dangerous. another thing hikers get is MRSA. do you know why MRSA exists and is the concern that it is?
Agree with muddy... Is lyme something to be concerned about while on the trail? YES So much so to keep anyone off the trail? NO
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 19:54
If a hiker were to start taking Doxy just because of a tick bite and nothing else they would be acting foolishly. I also agree with Muddy.
If a hiker were to start taking Doxy just because of a tick bite and nothing else they would be acting foolishly. I also agree with Muddy.
a close friend of mine, who is not a hiker, was bitten by a tick once. he went to the dr (or maybe it was the hospital even) to have it removed. the dr sent it out to be tested, and pending test results, started him on doxy. it happens. i bet if i just walk into a dr's office without even a tick attached and tell them ive been bitten by a tick they might give it to me. if i were also throw in ive been feeling sluggish and achey, they almost certainly would. and maybe ive been feeing that way for a whole host of other reasons, or maybe its all just in my head because of the tick bite. in either case, a small contribution towards creating a potentially new disease that actually is fatal and life threatening has been made, and why? fear.
squeezebox
11-12-2015, 21:16
The accuracy of the testing just isn't perfect yet. Therefore the just in case happens. Overuse of antibiotics? Probably. Dangerous? less than a bad case of Lyme. Misunderstanding or lack of understanding? plenty. Look at Ebola 25 yrs ago and now.
The Dr. is covering his ass, his lawyer's ass, and the patient's ass.
Creating a new disease? I wouldn't go there.
The accuracy of the testing just isn't perfect yet. Therefore the just in case happens. Overuse of antibiotics? Probably. Dangerous? less than a bad case of Lyme. Misunderstanding or lack of understanding? plenty. Look at Ebola 25 yrs ago and now.
The Dr. is covering his ass, his lawyer's ass, and the patient's ass.
Creating a new disease? I wouldn't go there.
not dangerous for the person taking the antibiotics, no.
i posed the question not to you, but i'll pose it again. do you know what MRSA is? do you know why it is so dangerous, and unlike lyme, actually can kill you or seriously and permanently mess you up? no, it is not directly related to the antibiotics used in treating lyme, i dont think, but conceptually the overuse of doxy can certainly contribute to the rise of other superbugs.
http://www.tufts.edu/med/apua/about_issue/about_antibioticres.shtml
Sarcasm the elf
11-12-2015, 22:23
a close friend of mine, who is not a hiker, was bitten by a tick once. he went to the dr (or maybe it was the hospital even) to have it removed. the dr sent it out to be tested, and pending test results, started him on doxy. it happens. i bet if i just walk into a dr's office without even a tick attached and tell them ive been bitten by a tick they might give it to me. if i were also throw in ive been feeling sluggish and achey, they almost certainly would. and maybe ive been feeing that way for a whole host of other reasons, or maybe its all just in my head because of the tick bite. in either case, a small contribution towards creating a potentially new disease that actually is fatal and life threatening has been made, and why? fear.
I do not doubt anything you have said in the quote above, however I have been fortunate enough to have two different doctors over the past 15 years who have both pushed back when I came in with a probable case of Lyme. Both times I tested positive and one of those times I had full blown symptoms so I ended up getting put on a full course of Doxy, however I was glad to know that I had found myself MD's that weren't just going to write a scrip every time I came in just to get me out of their office.
On a side note since, being on Doxycycline is miserable and some of the side effects can be potentially harmful. A lot of people including myself find that we are nauseous throughout nearly the entire course of the antibiotic. It also drastically increases your sensitivity to the sun so you can get a sunburn from very minimal exposure, it got so bad for me last time that I ended up walking around Manhattan on a hot day wearing long pants, sunglasses, and my rain shell just to avoid getting burned. I think that people who take it "just in case" are nuts.
imscotty
11-12-2015, 23:42
a close friend of mine, who is not a hiker, was bitten by a tick once. he went to the dr (or maybe it was the hospital even) to have it removed. the dr sent it out to be tested, and pending test results, started him on doxy. it happens. i bet if i just walk into a dr's office without even a tick attached and tell them ive been bitten by a tick they might give it to me. if i were also throw in ive been feeling sluggish and achey, they almost certainly would. and maybe ive been feeing that way for a whole host of other reasons, or maybe its all just in my head because of the tick bite. in either case, a small contribution towards creating a potentially new disease that actually is fatal and life threatening has been made, and why? fear.
A single dose of Doxy after a tick bite for prophylaxis is actually the procedure recommended by the CDC (in most cases). The following is from the CDC website...
TICK BITE PROPHYLAXIS
The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) does not generally recommend antimicrobial prophylaxis for prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite. However, in areas that are highly endemic for Lyme disease, a single dose of doxycycline may be offered to adult patients (200 mg) who are not pregnant and to children older than 8 years of age (4 mg/kg up to a maximum dose of 200 mg) when all of the following circumstances exist:
Doxycycline is not contraindicated.
The attached tick can be identified as an adult or nymphal I. scapularis tick.
The estimated time of attachment is ≥36 h based on the degree of engorgement of the tick with blood or likely time of exposure to the tick.
Prophylaxis can be started within 72 h of tick removal.
Lyme disease is common in the county or state where the patient lives or has recently traveled, (i.e., CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, MN, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VA, VT, WI).
Lyme is no fun. If you discover a deer tick imbedded in you, see your Dr. and try to nip it in the bud.
A single dose of Doxy after a tick bite for prophylaxis is actually the procedure recommended by the CDC (in most cases). The following is from the CDC website...
TICK BITE PROPHYLAXIS
The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) does not generally recommend antimicrobial prophylaxis for prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite. However, in areas that are highly endemic for Lyme disease, a single dose of doxycycline may be offered to adult patients (200 mg) who are not pregnant and to children older than 8 years of age (4 mg/kg up to a maximum dose of 200 mg) when all of the following circumstances exist:
Doxycycline is not contraindicated.
The attached tick can be identified as an adult or nymphal I. scapularis tick.
The estimated time of attachment is ≥36 h based on the degree of engorgement of the tick with blood or likely time of exposure to the tick.
Prophylaxis can be started within 72 h of tick removal.
Lyme disease is common in the county or state where the patient lives or has recently traveled, (i.e., CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, MN, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VA, VT, WI).
Lyme is no fun. If you discover a deer tick imbedded in you, see your Dr. and try to nip it in the bud.
leaving aside how i personally feel about that recommendation, my friend was not given a single dose, he was put on a course.
I do not doubt anything you have said in the quote above, however I have been fortunate enough to have two different doctors over the past 15 years who have both pushed back when I came in with a probable case of Lyme. Both times I tested positive and one of those times I had full blown symptoms
were the symptoms the first time or the second time?
i know its not entirely equivalent, but i dont think its entirely irrelevant either- my dog is permanently positive for lyme, on CERTAIN tests. after about the 5th positive i finally convinced my vet to stop telling me to give my dog doxy and to only rely on the test that never shows him positive. depending on what else they were testing for they were using different tests, one always was, and i assume always will be, positive. the other has always been negative.
if i get lyme disease? i will chalk it up to bad luck and much like i did with giardia, i will get it treated and go back to what i was doing. no biggie.
i'm not sure what attitude you're referring to. you seem to almost be comparing me to people who recklessly get lost because of their own carelessness and need to be rescued as a result. if so, my response to that is something not fit to say in public.
My ex-boyfriend was on a weekend motorcycle trip in WI and a month later was in the ICU from Lyme after it began affecting his major organs. He also thought taking tick precautions was silly.
I'm happy for you that you aren't afraid. I really am hoping you end up right in the end thinking we are just scared sheeple idiots. I really do. No one deserves to find out that they should have been more careful after a week in the ICU.
Good luck!
My ex-boyfriend was on a weekend motorcycle trip in WI and a month later was in the ICU from Lyme after it began affecting his major organs. He also thought taking tick precautions was silly.
I'm happy for you that you aren't afraid. I really am hoping you end up right in the end thinking we are just scared sheeple idiots. I really do. No one deserves to find out that they should have been more careful after a week in the ICU.
Good luck!
sorry for your bf and for anyone who goes through that, but there are probably 25 other things with way better odds of landing me in the ICU. and the fact that he wasnt even hiking (or maybe they were camping while riding?) tells me that if you are going to be struck with lyme it can happen at a random, seemingly inexplicable time and place just as well as it can while out hiking. one cant protect themselves against it 24/7/365 can they? i mean i suppose you could, but no thanks.
Traveler
11-13-2015, 07:50
I have a question... about the ticks that carry Lyme (deer ticks only I presume?)... are they just out in the summer time or are they a year round issue? Same question for RMSF. Usually a good frost or two kills most summer bugs, but not so sure about these.
The short answer is, deer ticks can be active year round, with a bit of a caveat. "Tick Season" for these pests is typically considered early spring into late fall, however they can be active anytime the temperature around them is above freezing. Even ticks that appear dormant or dead will quickly liven up once the temperature goes above 32 degrees and can get rambunctious when its over 40. I will usually check my pants after being out on trails in winter, even in temperatures well below freezing and will find a tick here and there on them.
When your only other option is to stay home, you just go , be prudent, and deal with it if it happens. Thats all anyone can do. Its all anyone does.
Good advice. I would add do your own research, learn the signs and symptoms and talk with your doctor.
Some of the information posted has been just flat out wrong.
I had a physical just before leaving on my thru. My doctor asked what my greatest concerns were, my answer was plantar fasciitis (I have a history of this) and Lyme disease. My doctor discussed the Lyme issue and gave me a 7 day prescription for Doxycycline to take with me.
I ended up getting Lyme disease in Massachusetts. I called my doctor and he called in a prescription for another 21 days. Testing after I got home showed I had indeed contracted Lyme. I believe that recognizing the symptoms and starting Doxy immediately was key in a quick recovery.
Offshore
11-13-2015, 09:24
so you have no data of any kind to share then?
I can't think of any better data source than the CDC. Proper interpretation is what makes data useful information, and that's what's sorely lacking in your series of posts. The purpose of my reply was not to try to convince you to change your outdoor health and safety protocol - so check the ego. It is a heads up to others that you are taking raw data and drawing conclusions that are unsubstantiable on even an empirical level.
you need to review this thread i think. it went something like this-
OP- is lyme disease a real concern or is trumped up and exaggerated?
me- trumped up and exaggerated. i dont worry about it.
everyone else- what!?!?!?! are you crazy!?!?!? thats nonsense!!!!! how can you say such a thing!?!?!?!?
me- well here, let me tell you...
have i told anyone what to do? have i tried to convince anyone not to take precautions? no, you want to walk around in long pants and sleeves in august thats all you. but as much as you dont like me trying to convince others not to do it, i dont particularly like others trying to convince people to do it.
moving beyond that, to a more serious extension of this (that you question if it exists, but it does, people on this very board have said they do it, though thankfully, not many) if a hiker is walking around with a prescription antibiotic and starts taking it because he/she has been bitten by a tick, sorry, that person is acting foolishly and selfishly and is, frankly, dangerous. another thing hikers get is MRSA. do you know why MRSA exists and is the concern that it is?
Did you get giardia, with your "why bother taking precautions" attitude?
If you are in the USA, the only treatment alters human DNA. I think that is unacceptable.
If you are in Canada, there is less risk from the treatment for giardia. At least, that is available in Canada.
I am not in Canada. I always used "good practice" in getting water, in prefiltering, in backflushing the filter, and, in using chemical treatment or I carried water, even if it meant having a pack horse for spending weeks at a time out where the water sources were not acceptable. But, that's "just me" according to you.
FlyPaper
11-13-2015, 11:05
Really? I am a vet.
There is "no way" I could get the VA to hand out antibiotics, and my private MD would never do it either.
The fact is, hikers are atypical for the amount of exposure to ticks and thru-hikers more atypical.
I would say that increases your chance of getting an infected tick and that statistic would be more than a random chance of death by car accident, much more so, of injury by car accident, because of the sample size: nearly every adult drives a car but hikers are a smaller sample and hikers have more exposure than the general public.
Indeed. I would guess that for one single day on the trail, you are 1000+ times more likely to get a tick bite than in one single day as an office worker in a big city. Presumably that means you're 1000+ times more likely to get Lyme's disease. The overall number of cases is low for the whole population, but I think we all need to take the threat very seriously when hiking, especially in the north east.
Did you get giardia, with your "why bother taking precautions" attitude?
If you are in the USA, the only treatment alters human DNA. I think that is unacceptable.
If you are in Canada, there is less risk from the treatment for giardia. At least, that is available in Canada.
I am not in Canada. I always used "good practice" in getting water, in prefiltering, in backflushing the filter, and, in using chemical treatment or I carried water, even if it meant having a pack horse for spending weeks at a time out where the water sources were not acceptable. But, that's "just me" according to you.
the story of my own ideas on why i got giardia is in a prior post in this thread.
alters human DNA? the standard medical treatment is a course of metronidizale (sp?) it can also be treated, i later found out, by large doses of bismuth, but also, most people just clear it from their systems naturally.
Indeed. I would guess that for one single day on the trail, you are 1000+ times more likely to get a tick bite than in one single day as an office worker in a big city. Presumably that means you're 1000+ times more likely to get Lyme's disease. The overall number of cases is low for the whole population, but I think we all need to take the threat very seriously when hiking, especially in the north east.
i'm reminded of one of my favorites simpsons lines- "whats a billion times zero!?!?! AND DON"T SAY ZERO!." (i suppose in this case its probably more like 1000 x .000000000000000000002167, but, it still reminded me of the quote).
The short answer is, deer ticks can be active year round, with a bit of a caveat. "Tick Season" for these pests is typically considered early spring into late fall, however they can be active anytime the temperature around them is above freezing. Even ticks that appear dormant or dead will quickly liven up once the temperature goes above 32 degrees and can get rambunctious when its over 40. I will usually check my pants after being out on trails in winter, even in temperatures well below freezing and will find a tick here and there on them.
Thanks ATT. That is very surprising to me. Glad to know it. I will be sure to take the necessary precautions. We did Grandfather Mountain a couple of weekends ago and took zero precaution, as I thought it was too cold for them now.
squeezebox
11-13-2015, 15:30
No reason to be paranoid, no reason to be careless. Find the happy middle.
During my 2014 thru hike, I knew just about as many people that got Lyme disease and those that didn't. VA through MA generally, but not restricted to that area by any means. Talking with other hikes from 2014 we estimated that approximately 50% of thru hikers came down with Lyme disease. Luckily I was not one of them.
Uncle Joe
11-13-2015, 15:51
Antibiotics are different for different people. I handle doxy very well. Give me Ammoxil, Bactrim, or Erythromycin and weird things happen.
Antibiotics are different for different people. I handle doxy very well. Give me Ammoxil, Bactrim, or Erythromycin and weird things happen.
the one time i had to take erythromycin was a bad scene. i think i had at least a mild amount of every side effect listed on the label.
also suddenly became allergic to penicillin one day even though i never had been. that was weird. otherwise ive never had one bother me.
squeezebox
11-13-2015, 18:19
i'm reminded of one of my favorites simpsons lines- "whats a billion times zero!?!?! AND DON"T SAY ZERO!." (i suppose in this case its probably more like 1000 x .000000000000000000002167, but, it still reminded me of the quote).
Yea but now they are seeing people that do not go hiking, only gardening, park walks and such. I think I agree with the person who said hikers know the risk and take precautions. Will I do a tick after a weekend in the woods? You bet. Will I do a tick check after going out to my garden to pick tomatoes, or walk the dog in the park? Probably not. Should I? probably yes.
squeezebox
11-13-2015, 18:22
Seeing the number of posts I would say that Lyme is a big issue to hikers.
Yea but now they are seeing people that do not go hiking, only gardening, park walks and such. I think I agree with the person who said hikers know the risk and take precautions. Will I do a tick after a weekend in the woods? You bet. Will I do a tick check after going out to my garden to pick tomatoes, or walk the dog in the park? Probably not. Should I? probably yes.
i would truly like to see stats, if any exist, about who gets it where.
the trouble with the idea that hikers are more cautious is this- they arent. the woods arent full of people hiking in head to toe clothing. they may be using repellant, i dont know. ive also never seen a hiker doing a tick check at the end of the day.
at the risk of causing an uproar again, i cant help but speculate that there are things about suburban wooded environments that make lyme more likely there than in the actual woods. i mean, after all, it is called lyme disease for a reason. as opposed to green mountain national forest disease.
i think its entirely possible the things that keep the tick population down in the "wild" are negated in suburban areas where deer take up residence. it really is too bad that "study" someone osted a link about ticks on the AT didnt actually test the ticks they found for lyme.
Here's a map from the CDC that show frequency of lyme occurrence in 2013.
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/maps/interactiveMaps.html
Here's a map from the CDC that show frequency of lyme occurrence in 2013.
http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/maps/interactiveMaps.html
by where i mean "in their backyard" or "at the town park" or "out hiking" etc.
50% is quite high. I wonder how many treated their clothes vs. those who didn't.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI
Migrating Bird
11-14-2015, 20:33
For what its worth. I went for a walk/run through the woods 15 yrs. ago in CT. When I got home, I found a deer tick embedded under my shirt sleeve at my wrist and freaked out. My Dr. and friend, saw me immediately, sent the tick out for testing and started me on Doxy for 3 weeks. Now I get 2-4 ticks embedded per year, I do tick checks each evening after being outdoors working or hiking which is almost every day. I don't sweat the details anymore. I remove them with a Otom tick twister and never have had one break apart. Knock on wood, I have not had lyme. Here is what I learned.
Ticks are active year round even in sub freezing temps especially where the sun melts the snow and warms the ground. On one hike in Feb, I picked 5 ticks off my pants after a 15 min rest stop.
Ticks are very active in W. MA April-June, Aug-Nov.
I avoid vegetation that overhangs the trail, moving it out of the way with hiking poles.
Deer ticks are small but not pin heads, most are clearly visible IF you look for them and know what you're looking for.
I will not use tweezers, spoons or such to remove a tick as the risk of not getting the whole tick out is highly likely.
The wound left by a tick will take 2-3 weeks to heal. The first 2-5 days they itch like hell. The bite will leave a scar.
Am I afraid of ticks? no, I try to vigilant about doing tick checks everyday. Those days when I am lax are when I find a tick embedded.
A single dose of Doxy after a tick bite for prophylaxis is actually the procedure recommended by the CDC (in most cases). The following is from the CDC website...
TICK BITE PROPHYLAXIS
The Infectious Disease Society of America (IDSA) does not generally recommend antimicrobial prophylaxis for prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite. However, in areas that are highly endemic for Lyme disease, a single dose of doxycycline may be offered to adult patients (200 mg) who are not pregnant and to children older than 8 years of age (4 mg/kg up to a maximum dose of 200 mg) when all of the following circumstances exist:
Doxycycline is not contraindicated.
The attached tick can be identified as an adult or nymphal I. scapularis tick.
The estimated time of attachment is ≥36 h based on the degree of engorgement of the tick with blood or likely time of exposure to the tick.
Prophylaxis can be started within 72 h of tick removal.
Lyme disease is common in the county or state where the patient lives or has recently traveled, (i.e., CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, MN, NH, NJ, NY, PA, RI, VA, VT, WI).
Lyme is no fun. If you discover a deer tick imbedded in you, see your Dr. and try to nip it in the bud.
Every thu hiker should read that-- slowly.
If you MD won't give you a small script before you hit the trail, politely tell him to **** off and find a new physician.
Every thu hiker should read that-- slowly.
If you MD won't give you a small script before you hit the trail, politely tell him to **** off and find a new physician.
i seriously have to wonder, do people just not believe in the concept of antibiotic resistance or do they just not care?
The point of it is not to use it on a regular basis, but in a situation (like long distance hiking) where one may not be able to get to medical within 72 hours (as they recommend) to have a dose that you carry along so that IF the need arises you can use it immediately.
The point of it is not to use it on a regular basis, but in a situation (like long distance hiking) where one may not be able to get to medical within 72 hours (as they recommend) to have a dose that you carry along so that IF the need arises you can use it immediately.
that assumes that a hiker is qualified to judge "need."
not even going to argue the CDC's recommendation, but even accepting it as it is it is very conditional. i'm sorry, but the continued efficacy of antibiotics is more important that making sure some hiker who MAY have been bitten by an infected tick doesnt get lyme disease.
that assumes that a hiker is qualified to judge "need."
not even going to argue the CDC's recommendation, but even accepting it as it is it is very conditional. i'm sorry, but the continued efficacy of antibiotics is more important that making sure some hiker who MAY have been bitten by an infected tick doesnt get lyme disease.
Tdoczi's comments are informative-- but only insofar as the serve as a reminder that one may encounter a physician who subscribes to a similar theory that the "greater good" trumps your individual health care needs.
In areas where there is a high incidence of Lyme Disease, you are far less likely to encounter this-- a physician who has seen the effect and knows the prevailence of it will balance the needs of his patient differently than one who does not.
As an informed hiker about to hit the AT just know that you have the capacity to know more on this issue than a family physician in a non-affected area (or any area if you are appropriately motivated)
If your MD refuses to issue you a small script, it actually might make more sense to educate him first-- but do be prepared to find a new physician if he is unwilling to learn.
Tdoczi's comments are informative-- but only insofar as the serve as a reminder that one may encounter a physician who subscribes to a similar theory that the "greater good" trumps your individual health care needs.
In areas where there is a high incidence of Lyme Disease, you are far less likely to encounter this-- a physician who has seen the effect and knows the prevailence of it will balance the needs of his patient differently than one who does not.
As an informed hiker about to hit the AT just know that you have the capacity to know more on this issue than a family physician in a non-affected area (or any area if you are appropriately motivated)
If your MD refuses to issue you a small script, it actually might make more sense to educate him first-- but do be prepared to find a new physician if he is unwilling to learn.
dangerous attitude, sorry. i am informed hiker. i will not take an antibiotic because ive been bitten by a tick and therefore may have contracted an entirely non fatal disease.
i think its entirely possible the things that keep the tick population down in the "wild" are negated in suburban areas where deer take up residence. it really is too bad that "study" someone osted a link about ticks on the AT didnt actually test the ticks they found for lyme.
The author of the study stated in a followup comment that 33% of the deer ticks collected carried B. burgorferi.
The author of the study stated in a followup comment that 33% of the deer ticks collected carried B. burgorferi.
didnt see that, thanks. i wonder how it compares to the tick populations in more developed areas.
Traveler
11-15-2015, 07:15
Every thu hiker should read that-- slowly.
If you MD won't give you a small script before you hit the trail, politely tell him to **** off and find a new physician.
I have had several MDs over the years, none of them would consider issuing an Rx without seeing me first. Symptoms of Lyme disease can be very similar to other ailments and easily misdiagnosed. If one believes they have contracted Lyme disease or have been exposed to it, they should bring the tick somewhere it can be tested and identified. Putting oneself onto an antibiotic regimen with an Rx an MD guessed would be suitable months before makes little sense, and raises more than a few eyebrows in the profession I'm sure.
I would imagine few people drive around in their cars with a spare battery, alternator, fuel pump, brakes, or other myriad parts, filters, and pieces that make an engine work "just in case" something breaks.
I have had several MDs over the years, none of them would consider issuing an Rx without seeing me first.
As a general rule, I am sure your experience is the norm.
Thru hiking presents a special set of circumstances, however. If you and your doctor accept and understand the CDC recommendations for a prophylactic dose (single pill) of antibiotics in certain circumstances, then you will know the window for it to be effective is very specific.
If the engorged tick has been on a sort time (the link said 36 hours but do you own research) you should not take it-- science says an infected tick needs more time to transmit Lyme.
If the engorged tick has been on a relatively long time (the link said 72 hours, but do your own research) you should not take it-- you are either screwed by then or not.
As such, logistics would make it nearly impossible for a thru hiker to excersize this option if he does not already have a pill in his first aid kit. Remember, we are not talking about diagnosing and treating the disease-- we are talking about pr venting it.
If after speaking with your physician, she refuses to issue you a small script ask yourself why that could be.
Is it because they practice outside of an area where Lyme is common and have not had the need to stay up on things-- and have not seen its impact first hand? Or perhaps they just think they know better than the CDC and other resources you will find on this? Or perhaps they just don't trust that you will take that single pill properly when you are out in the woods and far from medical resources.
Then work with to resolve-- or find another doctor.
Or perhaps they just don't trust that you will take that single pill properly when you are out in the woods and far from medical resources.
ding ding ding ding. nor should they. the ones who do are irresponsible.
and furthermore, lets be honest, how many spots on the AT in the regions where lyme is an issue can you not get to a dr in 72 hours? seriously? if someone is really that concerned about getting lyme disease let them get off the trail and hitch or call for a ride to medical treatment. simple solution. carrying the pill with them isnt for the sake of their health, its for the sake of their convenience and not having thier hike interrupted.
and furthermore, lets be honest, how many spots on the AT in the regions where lyme is an issue can you not get to a dr in 72 hours? seriously? if someone is really that concerned about getting lyme disease let them get off the trail and hitch or call for a ride to medical treatment. simple solution. carrying the pill with them isnt for the sake of their health, its for the sake of their convenience and not having thier hike interrupted.
You are correct about th confidence of having a single pil at the ready.
This can even be the case at home.
I am am a big believer in "tick checks" but consider the situation where you find an engorged deer tick on a Sunday night -- which you suspect you actually got it on you the previous morning when you were out in the garden.
That puts you past the 36 hours a tick needs to pass on Lyme.
At that point should you wish to follow the CDC recommendation and take a single pill of antibiotics TO PREVENT the transmission of Lyme you would need to get to your doctor the next day -- before the 72 hour window closes.
Not so easy even at home, right?
So what would happen out in the woods, really?
You (well, not you Tdoczi) would google up the CDC recommendation to prevent Lyme, say "**** it I should have listened to RickB"and hope for the best.
Not the best approach, IMHO.
You are correct about th confidence of having a single pil at the ready.
This can even be the case at home.
I am am a big believer in "tick checks" but consider the situation where you find an engorged deer tick on a Sunday night -- which you suspect you actually got it on you the previous morning when you were out in the garden.
That puts you past the 36 hours a tick needs to pass on Lyme.
At that point should you wish to follow the CDC recommendation and take a single pill of antibiotics TO PREVENT the transmission of Lyme you would need to get to your doctor the next day -- before the 72 hour window closes.
Not so easy even at home, right?
So what would happen out in the woods, really?
You (well, not you Tdoczi) would google up the CDC recommendation to prevent Lyme, say "**** it I should have listened to RickB"and hope for the best.
so everyone, not even just hikers, should have a pill at the ready in case they find a tick attached? seriously? this is the sort of thing i am talking about when i say this is an overblown and overhyped disease, and dangerously so. too many people have read all kinds of crazy horror stories about how lyme disease is going to ruin the rest of your life if you ever get bitten by a tick. nonsense, total nonsense. dangerous nonsense, frankly.
Traveler
11-15-2015, 09:23
and furthermore, lets be honest, how many spots on the AT in the regions where lyme is an issue can you not get to a dr in 72 hours? seriously? if someone is really that concerned about getting lyme disease let them get off the trail and hitch or call for a ride to medical treatment. simple solution. carrying the pill with them isnt for the sake of their health, its for the sake of their convenience and not having thier hike interrupted.
Well put. Though I understand the desire to have a single dose medication when one thinks they have been exposed to an infected tick, convenience should not trump best practice. Epi Pens are often cited as an example of pre-prescribing medication for bee stings if one has an allergy to them, however the allergy would be known by the Doctor and if one is used the patient has to see an MD as soon as possible, so there is no convenience factor involved.
I have asked two MDs over the years for antibiotics or other medications I might need on a long hike or trip to remote areas, that have been met with some sound advice. The common advice was if there is a concern, be it injury, development of an illness, or insect bite which may require medical attention, you need to stop what you are doing, find a doctor, and deal with it.
Then there is the litigious side of our society. There is always the potential for a bad reaction to medication that was prescribed several months (years maybe) prior to any diagnosis to an illness, injury, or bite was made. Put yourself in your Doctor's shoes and imagine trying to explain why you prescribed medication to an injury, illness, or bite you did not see, nor knew about when the medication you prescribed was taken to a jury. The fact the patient insisted on it to the point of telling you to "**** off" if you didn't won't carry much weight. It will carry less weight with a Medical Review Board that examines the actions of Professionals against codes of conduct.
Any MD not concerned enough to see patients prior to prescribing medications may not be the one you really want.
so everyone, not even just hikers, should have a pill at the ready in case they find a tick attached? seriously? this is the sort of thing i am talking about when i say this is an overblown and overhyped disease, and dangerously so. too many people have read all kinds of crazy horror stories about how lyme disease is going to ruin the rest of your life if you ever get bitten by a tick. nonsense, total nonsense. dangerous nonsense, frankly.
What I am saying is that everyone who spends much outdoor-time in an area where Lyme is common, and understand the CDC's recommendations regarding a prophylactic dose to prevent its transmission, should consider how they would follow that medical advise.
For a thru hiker on the AT the only practical way of following that advise would require a pill in their first aid kit.
Those who elect to not follow the CDCs advise are welcome to do so. Everyone should understand the importance of minimizing the possibility of tick bites, and do their very best to remove those that do attach themselves within 36 hours (and sooner, if at all possible).
so everyone, not even just hikers, should have a pill at the ready in case they find a tick attached? seriously? this is the sort of thing i am talking about when i say this is an overblown and overhyped disease, and dangerously so. too many people have read all kinds of crazy horror stories about how lyme disease is going to ruin the rest of your life if you ever get bitten by a tick. nonsense, total nonsense. dangerous nonsense, frankly.
I carried Doxy and used it.
I educated myself on Lyme before leaving for my thru, understood the signs and symptoms, prevention (I treated cloths with permethrin every 2 months) and knew the treatment.
Being from Maryland, one of the states where Lyme is very prevalent my doctor understood the importance of immediate treatment. He also trusted my knowledge and ability to make a decision on when or if to take the medication. In fact, after a phone call with my doctor he called in a prescription to the pharmacy in Dalton for me.
Well put. Though I understand the desire to have a single dose medication when one thinks they have been exposed to an infected tick, convenience should not trump best practice. Epi Pens are often cited as an example of pre-prescribing medication for bee stings if one has an allergy to them, however the allergy would be known by the Doctor and if one is used the patient has to see an MD as soon as possible, so there is no convenience factor involved.
I have asked two MDs over the years for antibiotics or other medications I might need on a long hike or trip to remote areas, that have been met with some sound advice. The common advice was if there is a concern, be it injury, development of an illness, or insect bite which may require medical attention, you need to stop what you are doing, find a doctor, and deal with it.
Then there is the litigious side of our society. There is always the potential for a bad reaction to medication that was prescribed several months (years maybe) prior to any diagnosis to an illness, injury, or bite was made. Put yourself in your Doctor's shoes and imagine trying to explain why you prescribed medication to an injury, illness, or bite you did not see, nor knew about when the medication you prescribed was taken to a jury. The fact the patient insisted on it to the point of telling you to "**** off" if you didn't won't carry much weight. It will carry less weight with a Medical Review Board that examines the actions of Professionals against codes of conduct.
Any MD not concerned enough to see patients prior to prescribing medications may not be the one you really want.
glad to know someone besides me hasnt gone out of their mind over a disease that generally causes a rash and a high fever and usually goes away easily with treatment. note the word generally and usually and spare me the story of the guy who knows someone who has a cousin who nearly died. yes it happens, i'm not denying it, but stop pretending it happens to everyone who gets bit by tick.
What I am saying is that everyone who spends much outdoor-time in an area where Lyme is common, and understand the CDC's recommendations regarding a prophylactic dose to prevent its transmission, should consider how they would follow that medical advise.
For a thru hiker on the AT the only practical way of following that advise would require a pill in their first aid kit.
Those who elect to not follow the CDCs advise are welcome to do so. Everyone should understand the importance of minimizing the possibility of tick bites, and do their very best to remove those that do attach themselves within 36 hours (and sooner, if at all possible).
contrary to your advise, i would flee from any doctor who follows your line of thinking. i'm sorry, its dangerous. i psoed the question in general, now i'll ask you specifically. do you not beleive in anti biottic resistance or do you just not care?
contrary to your advise, i would flee from any doctor who follows your line of thinking. i'm sorry, its dangerous. i psoed the question in general, now i'll ask you specifically. do you not beleive in anti biottic resistance or do you just not care?
So your point is to not use antibiotics because of the possibility of antibiotic resistance?
How do you feel about vaccines?
So your point is to not use antibiotics because of the possibility of antibiotic resistance?
How do you feel about vaccines?
my point is not to recklessly use antibiotics trying to prevent the mere possibility of infection with a non fatal disease. no one is telling anyone not to use them if they actually have lyme, and ill even go as far as to say that if a trained medical professional wants to follow and apply the CDC guidelines for preemptive treatment, fine. here is the problem with hikers carrying doxy- they are going to use it. if someone takes the time to go to their dr and get it, and maybe even go find a second dr if their first tells them no, then likely if they find tick on them that might even be a deer tick, they are going to take the pill. they arent going to make 100% certain it is a deer tick, they arent going to calculate the time passed to see if its appropriate, theyre going to go "better safe than sorry" and take it. if what they were trying to prevent was a disease that was fatal or debilitatingly chronic even 10 or 20% of the time then ok, but it isnt. lets be for real for a minute instead of scared. antibiotic resistance is one of those sorts of problems that lacks a single smoking gun you can point to and say eliminate that and problem solved. it is the summation of a million tiny things, all of which have people who think that the situation they are in is obviously an exception and since it isnt a big deal on its own its alright. you add all those together and you have a very real problem the likes of which may one day (albeit perhaps not in any our lifetimes) make the idea of worrying about getting lyme disease seem downright silly. now relate this to the idea of wearing head to toe chemical soaked clothes while hiking. on the surface, one can easily just say HYOH and leave it at that. but what about when someone asks "hey, why are you dressed like that?" and someone tells them a horror story about lyme and then THAT person decides to carry and use doxy? the way others see us behave has an impact and people dont do research and take the word of people they shouldnt.
it depends on the vaccine. overall they are a positive. im not certain i would legally require many of them, especially at this point in time, and i am definitely skeptical of any new vaccines such as gardasil, particularly in regards to any suggestion that they should be legally required.
are you likening concern about antibiotic resistance to paranoid ranting about how vaccines cause autism or something to that effect? if so that is ignorant beyond my ability to describe.
I would imagine few people drive around in their cars with a spare battery, alternator, fuel pump, brakes, or other myriad parts, filters, and pieces that make an engine work "just in case" something breaks.
However, how many of them drive miles out on a back road where it would take potentially hours to get help (assuming you can even make contact in the first place)? And there are now "spare batteries" that people do carry (at least some).
and furthermore, lets be honest, how many spots on the AT in the regions where lyme is an issue can you not get to a dr in 72 hours? seriously? if someone is really that concerned about getting lyme disease let them get off the trail and hitch or call for a ride to medical treatment. simple solution. carrying the pill with them isnt for the sake of their health, its for the sake of their convenience and not having thier hike interrupted.
Probably more than one would expect - not just being able to get to a road, but then getting from there to a town and finding an open medical facility (not all smaller areas have 24 hour services).
Probably more than one would expect - not just being able to get to a road, but then getting from there to a town and finding an open medical facility (not all smaller areas have 24 hour services).
name me 1 single spot and ill tell you how to get to medical facilities from there in less than 72 hours. i cant think of a single place in the northeast where you are ever more than, ill be generous, 6 hours from a road. ok, maybe the 100MW. i doubt even there it is true but im not familiar enough to say for sure. it might mean turning around, it might mean going down a side trail. oh boo hoo hoo. that leaves 66 hours to find transport to a medical facility and to factor in time between being bitten and discovering it.
name me 1 single spot and ill tell you how to get to medical facilities from there in less than 72 hours. i cant think of a single place in the northeast where you are ever more than, ill be generous, 6 hours from a road. ok, maybe the 100MW. i doubt even there it is true but im not familiar enough to say for sure. it might mean turning around, it might mean going down a side trail. oh boo hoo hoo. that leaves 66 hours to find transport to a medical facility and to factor in time between being bitten and discovering it.
Slow down.
The 72 hour deadline is from when the tick has attached. Since there is absolutely no reason to seek a prophylactic dose (single pill) if the tick has been 36 hours or less, your window to get a single pill to help prevent transmission would be a maximum 36 hours (per CDC article) and probably less.
Getting access to a physician who is out of your insurance network and with whom you have not already established a relationship would be very, very difficult in that time frame in the best of circumstances.
That leave 3 options-- going to an emergency room, do nothing, or reach for your first aid kit and retrieve the pill that your MD prescribed for exactly this situation.
You would clearly would do nothing, which is fine. Others -- in consultation with their personal physicians -- would be well to leave the practical option on the table (reach for first aid kit)
Getting access to a physician who is out of your insurance network and with whom you have not already established a relationship would be very, very difficult in that time frame in the best of circumstances.
pure fiction. or just go to an emergency room, i see nothing wrong with that. i mean, lyme is apparently a huge emergency, right?
That leave 3 options-- going to an emergency room, do nothing, or reach for your first aid kit and retrieve the pill that your MD prescribed for exactly this situation.
You would clearly would do nothing, which is fine. Others -- in consultation with their personal physicians -- would be well to leave the practical option on the table (reach for first aid kit)
do you dispute the idea i put forth in another post that a hiker who is carrying doxy is overwhelmingly likely to use it when bitten by a tick, whether it is appropriate to do so by the prescribed guidelines or not?
do you disagree that the overwhelming majority of lyme cases end up being no big deal? if you say i am wrong in that assertion, do you have anything beyond conjecture to back up your idea?
and finally, and again, do you not believe in antibiotic resistance, do you just not care, or do you just think a haphazard attempt to prevent contracting a non-fatal disease is worth it?
Others -- in consultation with their personal physicians -- would be well to leave the practical option on the table (reach for first aid kit)
and further, i categorically object to the notion that a) such a prescription is a proper thing for an MD to do and b) any MD who doesnt go along with this nonsense should be told to ****** off.
and further, i categorically object to the notion that a) such a prescription is a proper thing for an MD to do and b) any MD who doesnt go along with this nonsense should be told to ****** off.
Politely told to **** off
Politely told to **** off
i hope when you ask for such a script you are politely told to **** off.
fiddlehead
11-16-2015, 08:08
Interesting thread.
I am reading it because I was out hiking 2 days ago and noticed last night in the shower that a dead (I think) tick was attached and I had about a 6" bullseye around it.
So, what to do now?
Should I seek out some of this Doxycyline or however you spell it, and take one?
Or should I ignore it and see if I get flu like symptons and THEN worry about it???
I am not one to take any medicine normally but, don't want to have to take the long term antibiodic so, am thinking I should probably take one.
Any thoughts on this?
I got the tick on the AT in PA 2 days ago, through long pants and it is on the back of my leg behind my knee.
Not sure how a tick could possibly get up there.
Thanks in advance.
by the way, I originally agreed with tdozxi (strange name) but now that I'm in the other boat, I'm a bit worried.
Traveler
11-16-2015, 08:14
Interesting thread.
I am reading it because I was out hiking 2 days ago and noticed last night in the shower that a dead (I think) tick was attached and I had about a 6" bullseye around it.
So, what to do now?
Should I seek out some of this Doxycyline or however you spell it, and take one?
Or should I ignore it and see if I get flu like symptons and THEN worry about it???
I am not one to take any medicine normally but, don't want to have to take the long term antibiodic so, am thinking I should probably take one.
Any thoughts on this?
I got the tick on the AT in PA 2 days ago, through long pants and it is on the back of my leg behind my knee.
Not sure how a tick could possibly get up there.
Thanks in advance.
by the way, I originally agreed with tdozxi (strange name) but now that I'm in the other boat, I'm a bit worried.
If you have the tick, then it can be tested for species and infection, however that is not mandatory just handy. Having a demonstrable symptom (bulls eye ring around the bite) I would say now is the time to see an MD and take the advice they may have for you.
Uncle Joe
11-16-2015, 09:21
Interesting thread.
I am reading it because I was out hiking 2 days ago and noticed last night in the shower that a dead (I think) tick was attached and I had about a 6" bullseye around it.
So, what to do now?
Get to the doctor! The bullseye isn't a symptom of a tick bite. It's a symptom of the disease.
Interesting thread.
I am reading it because I was out hiking 2 days ago and noticed last night in the shower that a dead (I think) tick was attached and I had about a 6" bullseye around it.
So, what to do now?
Should I seek out some of this Doxycyline or however you spell it, and take one?
Or should I ignore it and see if I get flu like symptons and THEN worry about it???
I am not one to take any medicine normally but, don't want to have to take the long term antibiodic so, am thinking I should probably take one.
Any thoughts on this?
I got the tick on the AT in PA 2 days ago, through long pants and it is on the back of my leg behind my knee.
Not sure how a tick could possibly get up there.
Thanks in advance.
by the way, I originally agreed with tdozxi (strange name) but now that I'm in the other boat, I'm a bit worried.
I have two pieces of advise for you:
1. Go to your doctor.
2. Don't listen to tdoczi.
I have two pieces of advise for you:
1. Go to your doctor.
2. Don't listen to tdoczi.
i agree he should go to the dr. nothing i have said anywhere in this thread would make anyone who has intelligently and objectively read the things i have said think i would say anything different.
Or should I ignore it and see if I get flu like symptons and THEN worry about it???
I am not one to take any medicine normally but, don't want to have to take the long term antibiodic so, am thinking I should probably take one.
if you arent just making stuff up and this all true to try and prove some point, you already need "long term" antibiotic and not a single dose.
i have also not said anything even close to advising anyone who has been bitten by a tick to ignore obvious symptoms of lyme disease. not even close.
If you have the tick, then it can be tested for species and infection, however that is not mandatory just handy. Having a demonstrable symptom (bulls eye ring around the bite) I would say now is the time to see an MD and take the advice they may have for you.
absolutely agreed 100% without any reservation.
though i suspect fiddlehead is just telling a story to try and prove some sort of point.
illabelle
11-16-2015, 11:06
Get to the doctor! The bullseye isn't a symptom of a tick bite. It's a symptom of the disease.
Strongly agree! You need the antibiotic.
name me 1 single spot and ill tell you how to get to medical facilities from there in less than 72 hours. i cant think of a single place in the northeast where you are ever more than, ill be generous, 6 hours from a road. ok, maybe the 100MW. i doubt even there it is true but im not familiar enough to say for sure. it might mean turning around, it might mean going down a side trail. oh boo hoo hoo. that leaves 66 hours to find transport to a medical facility and to factor in time between being bitten and discovering it.
I don't know of one "specific" spot (though your suggestion of the 100 Mile section seems sensible). But the fact of being a short distance from a road assumes that the nearby road is helpful. There are certainly a few places where you cross roads that are rather low traffic ones (back roads, dirt roads), where finding someone to stop and help could be hard.
The other options (like taking side trails or whatever) also assume that the hiker knows about all of those and where they go, which is not always the case either.
do you dispute the idea i put forth in another post that a hiker who is carrying doxy is overwhelmingly likely to use it when bitten by a tick, whether it is appropriate to do so by the prescribed guidelines or not?
OK - Assume that they do all take it. How many hikers actually carry this in a given year? Probably some tiny fraction of all the antibiotics used during the same time period. Seems like a better way to reduce issues with overuse would be to focus on the high percentage uses and cut those back, rather than the tiny ones?
do you disagree that the overwhelming majority of lyme cases end up being no big deal? if you say i am wrong in that assertion, do you have anything beyond conjecture to back up your idea?
I certainly don't know, only that you hear about the ones that get it and get badly ill, so if there is a way to prevent that...
Has anyone ever seen a case of this resistance from this particular scenario (a hiker taking a single pill)?
I don't know of one "specific" spot (though your suggestion of the 100 Mile section seems sensible). But the fact of being a short distance from a road assumes that the nearby road is helpful. There are certainly a few places where you cross roads that are rather low traffic ones (back roads, dirt roads), where finding someone to stop and help could be hard.
The other options (like taking side trails or whatever) also assume that the hiker knows about all of those and where they go, which is not always the case either.
OK - Assume that they do all take it. How many hikers actually carry this in a given year? Probably some tiny fraction of all the antibiotics used during the same time period. Seems like a better way to reduce issues with overuse would be to focus on the high percentage uses and cut those back, rather than the tiny ones?
I certainly don't know, only that you hear about the ones that get it and get badly ill, so if there is a way to prevent that...
Has anyone ever seen a case of this resistance from this particular scenario (a hiker taking a single pill)?
A) a hiker would be better served by carrying maps that show side trails than by carrying doxy.
B) what if every thru hiker carries it, as some are recommending they should? and what happens when they pop the pill in NJ and still have the rest of the trail to hike? they arent going to get another one? indications are someone who has posted on this thread probably did that very thing. if such a thing were allowed to become common practice its no exaggeration to say thousands of pills will be taken needlessly. all misuse of antibiotics needs to be cut down. as i said in another post, there is no one single huge thing you can point to as an obvious cause to address. it is the summation of a lot of "oh thats not a big deal."
C) you obviously dont know what antibiotic resistance is, or how it works, and you didnt read my post where i explained it a little bit. further, do even just a tiny bit of google research (webmd, wikipedia, the CDC, pick your poison) and youll find ample information about what a case of lyme disease usually entails. google antibiotic resistance and MRSA while you're at it.
funny coincidence-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/misunderstanding-antibiotics-fuels-superbug-threat-who-says_5649f297e4b08cda3489980e
fiddlehead
11-16-2015, 15:05
if you arent just making stuff up and this all true to try and prove some point, you already need "long term" antibiotic and not a single dose.
i have also not said anything even close to advising anyone who has been bitten by a tick to ignore obvious symptoms of lyme disease. not even close.
I actually agreed with you in the beginning.
But, then, last night noticed the big bullseye thingy.
I was going to go to a pharmicist friend of mine to get one pill of the dyocylene.
But, I called the VA and they insist I see a doctor and get some blood work and the whole nine yards.
No BS here.
Just came to this thread to find out what I should do about it and saw all the arguing going on.
I've done quite a bit of hiking and had numerous ticks in the past.
But, never had the bullseye thing going on like this.
Actually it looks a bit dimmer today.
I hate taking pills and am not sick, so, I hope the doctor can tell right away.
The way I read it all, you get flu -like symptoms almost immedietly.
I feel fine, just have the bullseye.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
I actually agreed with you in the beginning.
But, then, last night noticed the big bullseye thingy.
I was going to go to a pharmicist friend of mine to get one pill of the dyocylene.
But, I called the VA and they insist I see a doctor and get some blood work and the whole nine yards.
No BS here.
Just came to this thread to find out what I should do about it and saw all the arguing going on.
I've done quite a bit of hiking and had numerous ticks in the past.
But, never had the bullseye thing going on like this.
Actually it looks a bit dimmer today.
I hate taking pills and am not sick, so, I hope the doctor can tell right away.
The way I read it all, you get flu -like symptoms almost immedietly.
I feel fine, just have the bullseye.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
go to the dr, take the pills. itll be unpleasant for a weeks and then the odds are overwhelmingly that youll be perfectly fine.
cneill13
11-16-2015, 16:57
It is a huge deal this year. I camped with a SOBO hiker last weekend in Georgia. His last night on the trail. He said almost every NOBO hiker he passed this year got lymes disease. Think about that for a second.
I live in Massachusetts and have had Lymes. I have friends that are disabled because of this disease.
This year I sprayed permethrin on my hiking pants, hiking socks, golf socks too. Any shirts that are worn on trail were sprayed too.
I even bought sprayed gators. No ticks this year.
donthaveoneyet
11-16-2015, 22:49
Notwithstanding the truly obnoxious superiority of some people who seem to have nothing better to do with their time than tell other people (over and over) how lowly and stupid they are for being concerned, Lyme is a very real concern in the NY/CT/MA area, at least. Having lived in all three of those states, and having known a number of people who contracted Lyme (including my wife), and having watched what it did to them, I am careful and take precautions. I pulled a deer tick off my son this summer, while camping in a NY State park. It had been on for less than 12 hours, but I still checked the spot for a week. All of my outdoor clothing gets permethrin treatment every spring (and I use a more concentrated solution than most do). My gear (if it's fabric) also gets treated. Lyme is nothing to trifle with, and can cause permanent damage.
I contracted Lyme about 25 years ago during a weekend in the woods in CT. It was very debilitating and I also got to experience the antibiotic allergies I didn't know I had, plus a reaction to one that caused a problem that took 20 years to resolve. I don't know *anyone* who had lyme who had an easy time of it and I know some who have permanent disability because of it.
One factor when looking at the stats is, even if you only had a 5% chance of being bitten by a lyme tic during months of hiking (and it has to be more than that just because of the time factor), anyway, for arguement's sake, let's say even 1% chance, how hard are the precautions compared to how hard is it to deal with the results of the bite.
As far as I'm concerned, it's worth at least taking the precautions that don't bother me. Permethrine treating clothing and gear every six weeks, probably more often, meaning sending Permethrine along in a bump box and having to figure out where to do the spraying, etc? Totally worth it.
Long pants? I'll wear them more than I would if I weren't concerned about lyme. However, during the shorts months, when I just can't stand to wear anything extra, I'll be more diligent about checking and applying daily insecticide. The stuff with pecaridin doesn't bother me.
Long sleeves? I feel constrained by them, so probably not until the temperature mandates.
It isn't all or nothing. Every precaution decreases your risk.
Actually, before I slogged through this thread, I hadn't thought about taking antibiotics with me, but now do plan to discuss the issue with my doctor. I'm not someone who takes antibiotics lightly. The only time I have since I had lyme was for pneumonia, and I'd personally rather have pneumonia again than lyme.
To the person with the 6" rash - that is probably too big to be lyme, but that doesn't mean it isn't *something,* possibly something worse. I'm also not someone who goes to a doctor unless compelled to, but that rash would compel me. You need to not futz around and get a diagnosis.
squeezebox
11-16-2015, 23:24
Fiddlehead- if you have a pharmacist who will give you a single pill of an antibiotic get there fast he won't have his license very long.
Antibiotic resistance is about a patient feeling better in a few days stopping their meds, then the bad guys that did not die off grow and hit again. Wham antibiotic resistance. If you take the antibiotics the right you should be okay.
Traveler
11-17-2015, 06:58
It is a huge deal this year. I camped with a SOBO hiker last weekend in Georgia. His last night on the trail. He said almost every NOBO hiker he passed this year got lymes disease. Think about that for a second.
Hard to argue with campfire tales.
Its OK, the human race is due for a reset soon enough. May as well be by some superbug that causes another great die off from plague, or something similar.
Traveler
11-17-2015, 07:31
Get to the doctor! The bullseye isn't a symptom of a tick bite. It's a symptom of the disease.
Here's where the issue is. A round rash appears while on a trail. The first thought is, Lyme disease due to the publicity it has received over the last several years.
A round rash can be symptomatic of a LOT of things, starting with a bruise unnoticed before and clearing up, however, this list should make the point that just seeing a rash isn't necessarily demonstrative of Lyme disease and why MDs should be consulted to properly diagnose it. Some of the more common causes of circular rashes are:
Scabies
Skin tags (initial development)
Ringworm
Dengue fever
Staph infection
Jock itch
Infectious mononucleosis
Mold
Athletes foot
Puritus
Rosacea
Shingles
Hives
Bedbugs
Spider bites
Impetigo
Keratosis
MRSA
Lupus
Coxsackie viruse
Tick bites (non diseased)
Lyme disease
Lichen Planus
Allergies (various sensitivities)
Atopic Dermatitis
Poison ivy
STDs (in men)
Mercury poisoning
Pityriasis Rosea
Eczema
Scarlet fever
Dry skin
Herpangina
Chicken pox
Tinea Versicolor
Toxoplasmosis
Seborrheic dermatitis
Streptococcal infection
Actinic keratosis
Measles
Sun sensitivity to drugs (reaction)
Henoch-Schonlein Purport
West nile virus
Changas disease
Ebola
Leishmagniasis
Heat related stress illness
Stings
Small pox
Allergic reactions to many things
All of these (and several more) can have a round rash as part of the symptoms when an illness, parasite, disease, or allergic reaction starts. Many of these varied conditions are easily remedied, however a doctor is needed to perform the diagnostic work necessary to determine what it is. I wonder how many people claim to have contracted Lyme disease when a circular rash appeared when it was a simple case of ringworm or insect bite reaction.
Fiddlehead- if you have a pharmacist who will give you a single pill of an antibiotic get there fast he won't have his license very long.
Antibiotic resistance is about a patient feeling better in a few days stopping their meds, then the bad guys that did not die off grow and hit again. Wham antibiotic resistance. If you take the antibiotics the right you should be okay.
while all misuse of antibiotics contributes to antibiotic resistance, including what you describe, you are entirely wrong about what antibiotic resistance is.
Hard to argue with campfire tales.
especially ones that call it "lymes" disease
Here's where the issue is. A round rash appears while on a trail. The first thought is, Lyme disease due to the publicity it has received over the last several years.
A round rash can be symptomatic of a LOT of things, starting with a bruise unnoticed before and clearing up, however, this list should make the point that just seeing a rash isn't necessarily demonstrative of Lyme disease and why MDs should be consulted to properly diagnose it. Some of the more common causes of circular rashes are:
Scabies
Skin tags (initial development)
Ringworm
Dengue fever
Staph infection
Jock itch
Infectious mononucleosis
Mold
Athletes foot
Puritus
Rosacea
Shingles
Hives
Bedbugs
Spider bites
Impetigo
Keratosis
MRSA
Lupus
Coxsackie viruse
Tick bites (non diseased)
Lyme disease
Lichen Planus
Allergies (various sensitivities)
Atopic Dermatitis
Poison ivy
STDs (in men)
Mercury poisoning
Pityriasis Rosea
Eczema
Scarlet fever
Dry skin
Herpangina
Chicken pox
Tinea Versicolor
Toxoplasmosis
Seborrheic dermatitis
Streptococcal infection
Actinic keratosis
Measles
Sun sensitivity to drugs (reaction)
Henoch-Schonlein Purport
West nile virus
Changas disease
Ebola
Leishmagniasis
Heat related stress illness
Stings
Small pox
Allergic reactions to many things
All of these (and several more) can have a round rash as part of the symptoms when an illness, parasite, disease, or allergic reaction starts. Many of these varied conditions are easily remedied, however a doctor is needed to perform the diagnostic work necessary to determine what it is. I wonder how many people claim to have contracted Lyme disease when a circular rash appeared when it was a simple case of ringworm or insect bite reaction.
excellent information.
since so many of us, though we think we do, seem to not know the medically accepted facts about lyme disease, i thought i'd share this. given how many of you seemed to have bothering reading about antibiotic resistance, i expect many of you will continue to post inaccuracies and stories they've heard, but maybe someone will actually read it and learn-
http://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthritis/arthritis-lyme-disease
highlights-
Erythema migrans is the telltale rash which occurs in about 70% to 80% of cases and starts as a small red spot that expands over a period of days or weeks, forming a circular, triangular, or oval-shaped rash. Sometimes the rash resembles a bull's-eye (http://www.webmd.com/eye-health/picture-of-the-eyes) because it appears as a red ring surrounding a central clear area.
After several weeks of being infected with Lyme disease, approximately 60% of those people not treated with antibiotics (http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/rm-quiz-antibiotics-myths-facts)develop recurrent attacks of painful and swollen joints (http://www.webmd.com/arthritis/swollen-joints-joint-effusion) that last a few days to a few months. The arthritis can shift from one joint to another; the knee (http://www.webmd.com/pain-management/knee-pain/rm-quiz-know-your-knees) is most commonly affected and usually one or a few joints are affected at any given time. About 10% to 20% of untreated patients will go on to develop lasting arthritis. The knuckle joints of the hands are only very rarely affected.
Lyme disease can also affect the nervous system (http://www.webmd.com/brain/default.htm), causing symptoms such as stiff neck and severe headache (http://www.webmd.com/migraines-headaches/migraine-treatment-14/rm-quiz-migraine-myths)(meningitis (http://www.webmd.com/children/understanding-meningitis-basics)), temporary paralysis of facial muscles (Bell's palsy (http://www.webmd.com/brain/understanding-bells-palsy-basics)), numbness, pain or weakness (http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/weakness-and-fatigue-topic-overview) in the limbs, or poor coordination. More subtle changes such as memory loss (http://www.webmd.com/brain/memory-loss), difficulty with concentration, and a change in mood or sleeping habits have also been associated with Lyme disease. People with these latter symptoms alone usually don't have Lyme disease as their cause. Nervous system abnormalities usually develop several weeks, months, or even years following an untreated infection. These symptoms often last for weeks or months and may recur. These features of Lyme disease usually start to resolve even before antibiotics (http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/video/josephson-antibiotics) are started. Patients with neurologic disease usually have a total return to normal function.
ewer than one out of 10 Lyme disease patients develops heart problems, such as an irregular, slow heartbeat, which can be signaled by dizziness (http://www.webmd.com/first-aid/understanding-dizziness-basics) or shortness of breath. These symptoms rarely last more than a few days or weeks. Such heart abnormalities generally appear several weeks after infection, and usually begin to resolve even before treatment.
the real, long term danger of lyme disease is early onset arthritis is the disease is left untreated. it is, in fact, how it was discovered-
Lyme disease (http://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthritis/arthritis-lyme-disease) is a bacterial infection (http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/bacterial-and-viral-infections) transmitted by ticks. Lyme disease (http://www.webmd.com/arthritis/ss/slideshow-lyme-disease)was first recognized in 1975, after researchers investigated why unusually large numbers of children were being diagnosed with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis (http://www.webmd.com/rheumatoid-arthritis/guide/juvenile-rheumatoid-arthritis) in Lyme, Conn., and two neighboring towns.
Its OK, the human race is due for a reset soon enough. May as well be by some superbug that causes another great die off from plague, or something similar.
in that line of thinking, i submit that allowing and in fact encouraging a rampant outbreak of lyme disease will help the issues of overcrowding on the AT.
i don't really mean this, of course. but i'm just using your logic.
fiddlehead
11-17-2015, 13:54
Went to the doctor today.
He wouldn't give me the one pill of dyocyline (sp?) as he said he had to get the results of the blood test (that he took this morning) first.
And he said THAT would take 3 days.
i told him that I thought if i caught it within 72 hours, one pill would do the trick.
He didn't agree and said we had to wait and then, if positive; would give me the whole antibiodic deal.
oh well, so much for the CDC advice.
By the way, the rash is faded pretty much by now (aprox 72 hours after my hike).
And no symptons of flu or joint ache.
So, I'm thinking i don't have it (lyme)
Once again, thanks for this thread and the info I learned from it.
Went to the doctor today.
He wouldn't give me the one pill of dyocyline (sp?) as he said he had to get the results of the blood test (that he took this morning) first.
And he said THAT would take 3 days.
i told him that I thought if i caught it within 72 hours, one pill would do the trick.
He didn't agree and said we had to wait and then, if positive; would give me the whole antibiodic deal.
oh well, so much for the CDC advice.
By the way, the rash is faded pretty much by now (aprox 72 hours after my hike).
And no symptons of flu or joint ache.
So, I'm thinking i don't have it (lyme)
Once again, thanks for this thread and the info I learned from it.
When your MD took the blood test, did he explain that the test would likely not confirm Lyme even if you were in infected? Or alternatively explain why he didn't agree with th CDC on that point?
Laboratory TestingLaboratory testing can be an important aid in the diagnosis of Lyme disease. Proper use and interpretation of laboratory tests requires an understanding of the type of test, the stage of illness, and the underlying likelihood that the patient has the disease.
Like blood tests for many other infectious diseases, the test for Lyme disease measures antibodies made by white blood cells in response to infection. It can take several weeks after infection for the body to produce sufficient antibodies to be detected. Therefore, patients tested during the first few weeks of illness will often test negative. In contrast, patients who have had Lyme disease for longer than 4-6 weeks, especially those with later stages of illness involving the brain or the joints, will almost always test positive. A patient who has been ill for months or years and has a negative test almost certainly does not have Lyme disease as the cause of their symptoms.
Because all laboratory tests can sometimes give falsely positive results, it is important when faced with a positive result to consider the underlying likelihood that a patient has the disease. If a patient has not been in an area where Lyme disease is common or their symptoms are atypical, positive results are more likely to be false positives. Similarly, if a patient is tested numerous times and only rarely tests positive, it is likely that the positive result is a false positive.
Several laboratories offer "in-house" testing for Lyme disease using their own assays or testing criteria. Such in-house assays do not require evaluation or approval by the Food and Drug Administration. Because of the potential for misleading results, CDC and FDA recommend against using in-house assays whose accuracy and clinical usefulness have not been adequately validated and published in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. Ask your care provider about the validation of the tests being used.
If not, why not?
It could well be that he is just playing he odds-- chances are you were not infected. Th odds are definitely in your favor.
In the unlikely event you do get Lymes after the test comes back negative, it's no skin off the Dr's nose-- it's not like you were his kid or something like that.
When your MD took the blood test, did he explain that the test would likely not confirm Lyme even if you were in infected? Or alternatively explain why he didn't agree with th CDC on that point?
[h=1]
If not, why not?
It could well be that he is just playing he odds-- chances are you were not infected. Th odds are definitely in your favor.
In the unlikely event you do get Lymes after the test comes back negative, it's no skin off the Dr's nose-- it's not like you were his kid or something like that.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
or maybe the dr is just "crazy" like i am.
cneill13
11-17-2015, 14:44
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AT Traveler http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2019758#post2019758)
Hard to argue with campfire tales.
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->especially ones that call it "lymes" disease
Sorry about the typos calling it Lymes disease instead of Lyme. I am sure you have never, ever made a typing error. It will never happen again.
As for passing on what I heard from the SOBO thru-hiker about nearly everyone he passed heading north has contracted Lyme disease, it is what he said. I asked him again and he said the same thing.
I couldn't care a less whether or not you believe it. Just passing on what I heard.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AT Traveler http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2019758#post2019758)
Hard to argue with campfire tales.
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->especially ones that call it "lymes" disease
Sorry about the typos calling it Lymes disease instead of Lyme. I am sure you have never, ever made a typing error. It will never happen again.
As for passing on what I heard from the SOBO thru-hiker about nearly everyone he passed heading north has contracted Lyme disease, it is what he said. I asked him again and he said the same thing.
I couldn't care a less whether or not you believe it. Just passing on what I heard.
it is virtually impossible that that statement is actually 100% verifiably true, but the fact that someone made it and someone was willing to take him/her at their word (neither of which surprises me) just proves what i have been saying since this thread started.
the perhaps more interesting question is the psychology behind why many people want to overhype a danger and then take a bunch of precautions against the perceived threat. i could speculate, but it would be just that. in the world of hiking this by no means applies to just lyme.
cneill13
11-17-2015, 15:27
New Jersey, figures.
Just wondering, because of the list of all the many other rashes that can and likely do occur on the trail, has anyone heard of anyone getting seriously sick from a spider bite while on the trail? Spiders freak me out more than ticks and they are sneakier and much faster.
Traveler
11-17-2015, 15:45
Just wondering, because of the list of all the many other rashes that can and likely do occur on the trail, has anyone heard of anyone getting seriously sick from a spider bite while on the trail? Spiders freak me out more than ticks and they are sneakier and much faster.
I did not think spiders gave you more than a minor rash or itch when they bit until last fall. A spider got caught between me and my hip belt and bit me a bunch of times. Turns out it carried MRSA and gave me a hell of a welt that required antibiotics to tame, that was about a year ago and I still have a reddened area with an indent from the flesh that was lost in that process. MRSA can be a very serious health issue, I never knew spiders could carry it, or do I know what species of spiders do, as the one that got me apparently got away clean.
I did not think spiders gave you more than a minor rash or itch when they bit until last fall. A spider got caught between me and my hip belt and bit me a bunch of times. Turns out it carried MRSA and gave me a hell of a welt that required antibiotics to tame, that was about a year ago and I still have a reddened area with an indent from the flesh that was lost in that process. MRSA can be a very serious health issue, I never knew spiders could carry it, or do I know what species of spiders do, as the one that got me apparently got away clean.
Did a doctor tell you it was a spider that bit you? I would think that you would have squished it between your hip belt and your body?? I will keep my eyes peeled. HATE spiders.
New Jersey, figures.
says someone from georgia.
Sarcasm the elf
11-17-2015, 16:01
I did not think spiders gave you more than a minor rash or itch when they bit until last fall. A spider got caught between me and my hip belt and bit me a bunch of times. Turns out it carried MRSA and gave me a hell of a welt that required antibiotics to tame, that was about a year ago and I still have a reddened area with an indent from the flesh that was lost in that process. MRSA can be a very serious health issue, I never knew spiders could carry it, or do I know what species of spiders do, as the one that got me apparently got away clean.
Just curious, are you sure that it wasn't a brown recluse bite? They are the only species of spider I know of that live on the trail and can cause major issues for people. Their venom can causes necrotic tissue that takes a long time to heal and may require medical attention.
I believe I got a spider stuck in the mesh pocket of my pants a couple of years back, I didn't feel it at the time, but I ended up with a bunch of red welts that looked like tiny double bite marks. It itched like the dickens for a couple of weeks, but healed on its own.
I did not think spiders gave you more than a minor rash or itch when they bit until last fall. A spider got caught between me and my hip belt and bit me a bunch of times. Turns out it carried MRSA and gave me a hell of a welt that required antibiotics to tame, that was about a year ago and I still have a reddened area with an indent from the flesh that was lost in that process. MRSA can be a very serious health issue, I never knew spiders could carry it, or do I know what species of spiders do, as the one that got me apparently got away clean.
MRSA is way more serious than lyme. you can get it out hiking any number of ways and i still (though im sure it is hopeless) hope all of you proponents of hikers self administering antibiotics read up on and it understand where it comes from and why it us such an issue.
Just curious, are you sure that it wasn't a brown recluse bite? They are the only species of spider I know of that live on the trail and can cause major issues for people. Their venom can causes necrotic tissue that takes a long time to heal and may require medical attention.
I believe I got a spider stuck in the mesh pocket of my pants a couple of years back, I didn't feel it at the time, but I ended up with a bunch of red welts that looked like tiny double bite marks. It itched like the dickens for a couple of weeks, but healed on its own.
i'm less than 100% expert on this but i'm fairly confidant of two things- you can get MRSA from any kind of wound to your skin, and that any living thing may be carrying MRSA on it.
Traveler
11-17-2015, 16:36
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by AT Traveler http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2019758#post2019758)
Hard to argue with campfire tales.
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->especially ones that call it "lymes" disease
Sorry about the typos calling it Lymes disease instead of Lyme. I am sure you have never, ever made a typing error. It will never happen again.
As for passing on what I heard from the SOBO thru-hiker about nearly everyone he passed heading north has contracted Lyme disease, it is what he said. I asked him again and he said the same thing.
I couldn't care a less whether or not you believe it. Just passing on what I heard.
I hear a lot of goofy things too, so this isn't about you, its about the goofy claims some people make around campfires. I don't doubt people make this claim, many claim to have seen Bigfoot too. It sounds scary but you have to take that kind of nonsense in context, then have to consider if it is worth repeating. So you don't think I am taking a jab at you (which I'm not, I'm poking campfire tales), I'll bring some facts into consideration for context.
During the 2014 season, the ATC estimated some 2,500 hikers started in GA, however the estimate is just that, a best guess. The first place any kind of accurate count of thru hikers can be measured is in Harpers Ferry, where some 1,260 thru hikers stopped in to visit (it cannot be estimated how many avoid the Club headquarters and don't register there). The last place on the trail where there is any kind of accuracy is at Baxter SP, where in 2014 just over 650 signed the register as thru hikers. Considering the summer season brings out section hikers, that would add a substantial number to the mix. For example, BSP shows some 650 people coming in out of the Hundred Mile Wilderness as "thru hikers", there were over 1800 hikers who came into the park from the AT through the HMW, so one can make the logical extrapolation for every one thru hiker there are 3 section hikers in any given section of trail.
With this in mind, I cannot imagine this fellow having a conversation with everyone he passed going north if they had contracted Lyme disease. I cannot imagine he would have had more than one to two conversations during a day, likely evenings at shelters, that would have explored this. So if you take the tale at face value that nearly everyone he passed had contracted Lyme disease, that would have been hundreds at minimum, thousands at his estimation, give or take a few noses.
I am sure the SOBO fellow ran across a few people who had contracted the disease and discussed it, probably came across several more claiming exposure or that they too had contracted it when they had not. However anecdotes are not data. A few bits of information from a couple of people became a friendly cautionary tale that slowly grew to epic proportions and became "most people I passed" in the process. I don't doubt he said this, I doubt he asked everyone he passed.
Campfire tales without any means to assess their veracity appear frequently in conversation. I have heard a number of similar campfire tales of strange illnesses on the trail, rogue bears, rabies inflicted raccoons, and a host of other things which as I pointed out are difficult to argue with. So my comment wasn't directed at you, but at the campfire tale itself.
Hope that clears it up, I trust you pretty much ignored the statistical claim while observing the cautions it provided.
Traveler
11-17-2015, 16:43
Just curious, are you sure that it wasn't a brown recluse bite? They are the only species of spider I know of that live on the trail and can cause major issues for people. Their venom can causes necrotic tissue that takes a long time to heal and may require medical attention.
I believe I got a spider stuck in the mesh pocket of my pants a couple of years back, I didn't feel it at the time, but I ended up with a bunch of red welts that looked like tiny double bite marks. It itched like the dickens for a couple of weeks, but healed on its own.
I picked up the spider/bite just north of the Great Mountain Forest in NW CT, the spider escaped, or was crushed to the point I never noticed it. It could have been a Brown Recluse, however if it was, it had MRSA (testing confirmed it). It was a real pain to get rid of it too. What made it more scary was the concern of the medical staff and initial daily calls asking me how I was, if the welt had grown, and assorted medical questions for the first few days.
It would've killed a lesser man of course, but I made it through <squinting into the western setting sun with a knowing look>
I picked up the spider/bite just north of the Great Mountain Forest in NW CT, the spider escaped, or was crushed to the point I never noticed it. It could have been a Brown Recluse, however if it was, it had MRSA (testing confirmed it). It was a real pain to get rid of it too. What made it more scary was the concern of the medical staff and initial daily calls asking me how I was, if the welt had grown, and assorted medical questions for the first few days.
It would've killed a lesser man of course, but I made it through <squinting look="" knowing="" a="" with="" sun="" setting="" western="" the="" into="">
LOL! I would have died of an anxiety attack, just knowing I had a spider on my body eating me and I never even knew it. It gives me chills just to think about that.</squinting>
squeezebox
11-17-2015, 20:30
especially ones that call it "lymes" disease
Isn't that limes disease?
squeezebox
11-17-2015, 20:33
excellent information.
But most of that stuff can be treated with Doxy.
But most of that stuff can be treated with Doxy.
hows that reading up on what antibiotic resistance really is coming?
My god, if I listened to every one on this thread, I would never go hiking again![emoji35]
My god, if I listened to every one on this thread, I would never go hiking again![emoji35]
lol i certainly havent said anything that should make anyone think that, these other folks though...
squeezebox
11-17-2015, 21:53
hows that reading up on what antibiotic resistance really is coming?
Already told you about it.
Already told you about it.
you're wrong though. so wrong.
Traveler
11-18-2015, 07:08
LOL! I would have died of an anxiety attack, just knowing I had a spider on my body eating me and I never even knew it. It gives me chills just to think about that.
My guess is the spider was hanging out in the 'hood with his homies and boasted if he could bring that down (pointing at me) they would all eat well over the winter. Though it didn't end well, you have to admire spirit.
you're wrong though. so wrong.
This, from a report linked on the ATC website:
About 33,000 cases of Lyme disease were reported in the UnitedStates in 2011, many in the New England and mid-Atlantic easternstates traversed by the AT (CDC 2013). Reported cases underes-timate the true incidence, which may exceed 300,000 annually(Mead 2013). The National Park Service does not know howmany cases of Lyme disease are initiated on the trail; however,9% of respondents to an AT hiker survey reported they had beendiagnosed with Lyme disease (Knoll et al. 2014).
http://appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/tick-surveillance-and-disease-prevention-on-at-by-karl-ford-7-10-2015.pdf?sfvrsn=0
BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 13:20
I have been reading and avoiding rebuttals from experts. Two thoughts are driving be batty.
1) The statistical analysis that draws from incomparable pools (drivers vs hikers), establishes nothing. One might as well try to convince a lobsterman that he should not worry about the chances of drowning because no one that has never left Arizona has ever drowned in the Atlantic Ocean. The cars vs whatever analogy is constantly used and almost never relevant.
2) The antibiotic resistance is a valid concern. However, how does a hiker carrying a pill have any impact on that very real problem? The statistical cherry picking logic that tries to downplay the risk of Lyme Disease is totally ignored in the odds of pill popping. How many of those pills are actually consumed?
Having said this, I do not carry a pill. I treat my clothes and search for ticks daily. I believe in being proactive rather than reactive. Soaking my clothes (not spraying) seems to work so far. I am yet to find a tick on me while hiking.
As far as antibiotic resistance, I am contributing to the problem. I am on Doxycycline Monohydrate because of recurring chalazion issues. After 6 eye operations, my doctor decided it was time to try to be more aggressive. I do not think I am alone in this regard. Doxy is prescribed for more than just hiker vacations. Perhaps we should rail against people with chalazion issues and other ailments instead. I must admit. I am not a good patient. I have taken about a month's worth of pills in the last year. I hate medicines of all types. I only take them when I feel a blockage starting in one of my lids.
But back to the OP. Yes. Be concerned. Be very concerned. Ignore those that try to downplay that concern. However, prevention is always better than treatment. Do what you can to prevent it... unless you like running numbers and playing with odds.
This, from a report linked on the ATC website:
About 33,000 cases of Lyme disease were reported in the UnitedStates in 2011, many in the New England and mid-Atlantic easternstates traversed by the AT (CDC 2013). Reported cases underes-timate the true incidence, which may exceed 300,000 annually(Mead 2013). The National Park Service does not know howmany cases of Lyme disease are initiated on the trail; however,9% of respondents to an AT hiker survey reported they had beendiagnosed with Lyme disease (Knoll et al. 2014).
http://appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-source/default-document-library/tick-surveillance-and-disease-prevention-on-at-by-karl-ford-7-10-2015.pdf?sfvrsn=0
while i valuable piece of information, im not sure why it was posted in response to me telling someone that their ideas about what antibiotic resistance were were incorrect.
2) The antibiotic resistance is a valid concern. However, how does a hiker carrying a pill have any impact on that very real problem? The statistical cherry picking logic that tries to downplay the risk of Lyme Disease is totally ignored in the odds of pill popping. How many of those pills are actually consumed?
given the frequency with which one is bitten by a tick while hiking the AT and the worried mindset of someone who would bother to carry said pill, i see no reason why anyone would logically conclude that the answer isnt all (or at least nearly all) of them. do you? do you see a scenario in which someone carrying that pill doesnt get bitten by a tick on their entire thru hike, or, gets bitten but elects not to take it? i dont.
Ignore those that try to downplay that concern.
or, ya know, think for yourself and trust neither i nor the ones who have the opposite opinion blindly.
BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 14:46
given the frequency with which one is bitten by a tick while hiking the AT and the worried mindset of someone who would bother to carry said pill, i see no reason why anyone would logically conclude that the answer isnt all (or at least nearly all) of them. do you? do you see a scenario in which someone carrying that pill doesnt get bitten by a tick on their entire thru hike, or, gets bitten but elects not to take it? i dont.
If I carried a pill (I don't), I would not be inclined to take said pill unless I suspected that it had been attached for more than 36 hours (per recommendation of the "experts" :D). Such speculations are, by definition, ignorant. You and I cannot possibly know the answer. We don't carry a pill. My ignorant guess has me believing your speculation is an extreme exaggeration to further cherry picked statistics. I have had plenty of ticks on me (none while hiking on the AT, I find them mainly when exploring islands). I am yet to pull one off that was fully embedded. Almost every tick I have ever had on me (and there have been plenty) was felt roaming around. I inspect daily. Maybe I am lucky.
Please. Someone who carries a pill answer this question. When you found a tick on you, did you pop the pill? Did you pop a pill if you saw one running around on you or pulled one off that was not there after the previous day's inspection?
Okay. Back to lurking in this thread. There is no end to the answers to the simple question of the OP.
If I carried a pill (I don't), I would not be inclined to take said pill unless I suspected that it had been attached for more than 36 hours (per recommendation of the "experts" :D). Such speculations are, by definition, ignorant. You and I cannot possibly know the answer. We don't carry a pill. My ignorant guess has me believing your speculation is an extreme exaggeration to further cherry picked statistics. I have had plenty of ticks on me (none while hiking on the AT, I find them mainly when exploring islands). I am yet to pull one off that was fully embedded. Almost every tick I have ever had on me (and there have been plenty) was felt roaming around. I inspect daily. Maybe I am lucky.
Please. Someone who carries a pill answer this question. When you found a tick on you, did you pop the pill? Did you pop a pill if you saw one running around on you are pulled one off that was not there after the previous day's inspection.
Okay. Back to lurking in this thread. There is no end to the answers to the simple question of the OP.
if someone is worried enough about a disease that they went to a dr (or perhaps multiple drs) to get a pill to carry with them to prevent said disease, that person is going to go "oh no this has only been attached for 24 hours, not 36, so i wont take the pill" ? will they take it if they know for sure a tick just attached itself or if it is obviously not a deer tick? one would hope not, but if it is maybe a deer tick and might have been attached for anywhere near 36 hours? theyre going to take the pill. are they going to go their entire thru hike without ever finding a tick on them? unlikely. once they take the pill once, if a large chunk of their hike remains, are they going to get another one? there is no remotely logically reason to think they would not.
squeezebox
11-18-2015, 20:57
hows that reading up on what antibiotic resistance really is coming?
I'm an RN. How much time have you spent working in an ICU? punk!
BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 21:18
Rereading the above posts, the resident expert exaggerates another item. One does not get Lyme Disease from a tick "bite". They are not werewolves. It takes a while for the disease to be transferred. I do not understand why that is true. I accept it as true though. It is that fact that keeps me from worrying about carrying pills. I inspect daily while on the trail. If my inspections miss a tick, it will likely miss it again and again. I might miss it all together. I will not rail against someone else's choice. I am not their doctor or mommy or the Surgeon General.
I'm an RN. How much time have you spent working in an ICU? punk!
you're an RN and you dont know what antibiotic resistance is? honestly, i'm not that surprised. so is my sister and she probably doesnt know either.
in all seriousness, ive provided more than 1 link here to legit, unquestionable sources describing what it is and your understanding of it is incomplete at best, sorry to say.
Rereading the above posts, the resident expert exaggerates another item. One does not get Lyme Disease from a tick "bite". They are not werewolves. It takes a while for the disease to be transferred. I do not understand why that is true. I accept it as true though. It is that fact that keeps me from worrying about carrying pills. I inspect daily while on the trail. If my inspections miss a tick, it will likely miss it again and again. I might miss it all together. I will not rail against someone else's choice. I am not their doctor or mommy or the Surgeon General.
well pardon me for simplifying the idea. do you disagree with the notion that a thru hiker carrying doxy is going to use it whether or not the tick has been attached for 24 hours or 36?
i mean really, we an exchange ideas or you can go the semantics route in attempt to make it seem like i dont know what im talking about. or you can listen to the RN who doesnt know what antibiotic resistance is.
heres another link for all of you to read-
http://www.cdc.gov/drugresistance/about.html
Sandy of PA
11-18-2015, 21:43
The tick that gave me Lyme disease was attached for about 12 hours. I am not sure why people think it takes more than 24 hours and neither does my Doctor.
a simple, relevant highlight of the above link-
The use of antibiotics is the single most important factor leading to antibiotic resistance around the world. Simply using antibiotics creates resistance. These drugs should only be used to manage infections.
The tick that gave me Lyme disease was attached for about 12 hours. I am not sure why people think it takes more than 24 hours and neither does my Doctor.
there are exceptions to everything. that doesnt mean general rules should be discarded or that because there was one exception the rule is completely wrong.
that or you already had lyme disease from another tick you never even knew you had and were either asymptomatic or the symptoms passed without you thinking anything of it.
BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 21:48
well pardon me for simplifying the idea. do you disagree with the notion that a thru hiker carrying doxy is going to use it whether or not the tick has been attached for 24 hours or 36?i mean really, we an exchange ideas or you can go the semantics route in attempt to make it seem like i dont know what im talking about. or you can listen to the RN who doesnt know what antibiotic resistance is.I disagree with the premise that either of us could possibly know what another person would do given that choice, let alone a claim that all would take the pill. My original post on the subject was a rhetorical query, not a know it all claim.
Sarcasm the elf
11-18-2015, 21:50
And now that we passed 200 posts, a quick update on stats:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=115236
I disagree with the premise that either of us could possibly know what another person would do given that choice, let alone a claim that all would take the pill. My original post on the subject was a rhetorical query, not a know it all claim.
you're unable to make an educated guess based on your experiences of human nature?
so if i say to you a group of thirsty hikers who havent found any water in the desert for 24 hours comes upon a spring, do you think they will take a drink? your answer is "i have no way of knowing?"
And now that we passed 200 posts, a quick update on stats:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=115236
considering youve made roughly 3x as many posts since joining as i have, and we both joined at roughly the same time, i'm not sure i see your point.
BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 22:07
you're unable to make an educated guess based on your experiences of human nature?
so if i say to you a group of thirsty hikers who havent found any water in the desert for 24 hours comes upon a spring, do you think they will take a drink? your answer is "i have no way of knowing?"
Here we go comparing the incompatible again. The hiker will die without the water. I have pulled plenty of ticks off my body. I am still breathing.
Thank you for rescuing me Elf. This will be my last post on this subject.
Argue and assume away.
I have pulled plenty of ticks off my body. I am still breathing.
inadvertently perhaps the smartest thing said in this thread.
Here are the states with reported cases. I'd certainly take some precautionary actions in the northeast on the AT. http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/maps.html
squeezebox
11-19-2015, 12:26
And just maybe get tested every so often, just in case. No reason to panic, less reason to ignore it.
Traveler
11-19-2015, 12:37
And just maybe get tested every so often, just in case. No reason to panic, less reason to ignore it.
Not a bad idea really, for those who spend significant time in the woods it may make sense to order that test with routine testing done during physicals.
And now that we passed 200 posts, a quick update on stats:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=115236
Didn't know you could pull up stats on a thread. Anyway I'm now one ahead of you ;)
TheEngineer
12-01-2015, 07:12
Coinfections are common with lyme disease. 32% of those with lyme also had Babesiosis, or so says https://www.lymedisease.org/.
1. Do we have accurate statistics for the AT? How many infected and with what.
2. Isn't it time we started spraying shelters and surrounding areas?
3. The next time you see Bambi or any of it's cousins peacefully grazing, take out a sling shot and let them have it (better yet, a .270 Winchester). They are vectors for the disease.
mulligan54
12-01-2015, 13:33
I left the trail 2 years ago around Bland Va headed north. Turns out I had Rocky Mtn Spotted Tick Fever. Took me two months to get better, tired all the time and had no sense of balance. Some people have told me that I could not have gotten it this far east, but I have the blood test to prove it. Next time its long sleeves and pants with permethrin and lots of bug spray. Constant body checks too.
squeezebox
12-01-2015, 16:56
you're an RN and you dont know what antibiotic resistance is? honestly, i'm not that surprised. so is my sister and she probably doesnt know either.
in all seriousness, ive provided more than 1 link here to legit, unquestionable sources describing what it is and your understanding of it is incomplete at best, sorry to say.
Just maybe you don't understand the issue. I've talked to many infection specialist physicians concerning our patients. Have you? My guess is that you've been reading misinformation from unqualifed sources. When you've spent some time in an ICU you can respond, until then!!
Just maybe you don't understand the issue. I've talked to many infection specialist physicians concerning our patients. Have you? My guess is that you've been reading misinformation from unqualifed sources. When you've spent some time in an ICU you can respond, until then!!
do you consider the CDC, the WHO and tufts medical center unreliable sources of information? ive posted links to information about antibiotic resistance in this thread and while aprt of your description of it is accurate, you miss the point and the depth and breadth of the issue by a mile. you can work in all the ICUs you want, i dont care, you are wrong.
here is another link if you dont want to go find the others ive already posted. i mean seriously, get over yourself and stop with the "i am a nurse i know better" routine. your description is wrong.
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-27204988
Just maybe you don't understand the issue. I've talked to many infection specialist physicians concerning our patients. Have you? My guess is that you've been reading misinformation from unqualifed sources. When you've spent some time in an ICU you can respond, until then!!
here is a link i posted earlier-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/misunderstanding-antibiotics-fuels-superbug-threat-who-says_5649f297e4b08cda3489980e
i draw your attention in particular to this paragraph, as you have expressed the same incorrect concept of what antibiotic resistance is-
Three-quarters of respondents think antibiotic resistance means the body is resistant to the drugs, for example, whereas in fact it is the bacteria themselves that become resistant to antibiotics, and their spread causes hard-to-treat infections.
squeezebox
12-01-2015, 20:19
here is a link i posted earlier-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/misunderstanding-antibiotics-fuels-superbug-threat-who-says_5649f297e4b08cda3489980e
i draw your attention in particular to this paragraph, as you have expressed the same incorrect concept of what antibiotic resistance is-
Three-quarters of respondents think antibiotic resistance means the body is resistant to the drugs, for example, whereas in fact it is the bacteria themselves that become resistant to antibiotics, and their spread causes hard-to-treat infections.
Please submit your qualifications to enter this discussion. Because you obviously just don't know.
You are right on the above. But please your license # etc.
Uncle Joe
12-01-2015, 20:22
I got new for you if I even think I have Lyme and a simple dose of Doxy will eliminate my anxiety I'm taking the Doxy.
fiddlehead
12-01-2015, 21:02
Just to update my situation:
I had the blood test and it was negative.
I had the bullseye about 5" diameter about 3 weeks ago now.
I'm heading back to Thailand where they will know practically nothing about this disease.
So, hopefully i continue having none of the symptoms.
But it's been a learning experience.
I didn't take the one dioxcylene like I should have.
I listened to those on here who said to go to a doctor.
It took over a week to get the results.
By that time it's too late to take the one pill and everyone (PA deer hunters galore) around here tells me to just take the round of antibiotics.
That's what they do.
I have to agree with Tdozski or whatever his name is.
Too many people take antibiotics for every little thing and it is going to stop working some day.
I rarely take them.
Don't like pills.
squeezebox
12-01-2015, 21:57
I'm not allowed to self prescribe antibiotics. A doc should say a tick crawling on your arm does not justify Doxy. And a person should listen. The vast majority of antibiotic resistance comes from the person not taking the full regime of antibiotics, and then the more resistant bacteria continues to grow and then you get sick again, and have created a problem, not the doc, or the drug company. The person made the problem. Just don't be stupid. The drug companies are constantly working on adjusting antibiotics to continue to kill the bad guys. It's unlikely that antibiotics will not stop working anytime in our or our grandchildrens lifetime. In my humble opinion as a health care professional, antibiotics have saved more lives than any other medical advance, ever. Just follow your doc's directions. Otherwise it becomes a Darwin award.
I got new for you if I even think I have Lyme and a simple dose of Doxy will eliminate my anxiety I'm taking the Doxy.
which is exactly why letting you carry it is not something a dr should do.
Please submit your qualifications to enter this discussion. Because you obviously just don't know.
You are right on the above. But please your license # etc.
my qualifications are you made a statement in this thread that reading any number of perfectly legit internet sources on the topic will show to be false. i need no further qualifications. get over yourself.
I'm not allowed to self prescribe antibiotics. A doc should say a tick crawling on your arm does not justify Doxy. And a person should listen. The vast majority of antibiotic resistance comes from the person not taking the full regime of antibiotics, and then the more resistant bacteria continues to grow and then you get sick again, and have created a problem, not the doc, or the drug company. The person made the problem. Just don't be stupid. The drug companies are constantly working on adjusting antibiotics to continue to kill the bad guys. It's unlikely that antibiotics will not stop working anytime in our or our grandchildrens lifetime. In my humble opinion as a health care professional, antibiotics have saved more lives than any other medical advance, ever. Just follow your doc's directions. Otherwise it becomes a Darwin award.
and there you go once again making a statement about what antibiotic resistance is that is not accurate.
TheEngineer
12-02-2015, 08:04
Some research suggests that 10% of AT hikers get Lyme. Many hikers, if not most, were found with ticks on them. Shelter camps have less ticks on them than the trails do. Also, you've got to be especially careful if you charge into the woods looking for firewood.
The days of hiking the trail in shorts are over. Now, its premethrin on long pants and long shirt, 25% deet on any exposed skin, and 100% deet on bandanna, hat, and shoes.
Lyme is the least of your worries.
1. You could get EEE from a mosquito byte. It is often fatal.
2. You could get Chagas from the kissing-beetle. It's pandemic in NC as a lot of Brazilians have settled there and brought it along.
3. Ticks transmit other nasties besides lyme. They include:Babesia, Baronella, Ehrlichia, RMSF, and Anaplosana. Often, when you pick up Lyme, you get a co-infection with one of these at the same time.
4. You could get hanta virus from mice dust in the lean-two.
I pulled off the road up in NH in the summer to check the car. I notice the road shoulder is moving. I look closer and it most have been 10,000 ticks, all marching in unison toward me. Yikes!
You can make up some tick-tubes to put in/near the shelters. They are cotton balls soaked in premethrin inside a paper tube. The mice grab the cotton for their nests. Their ticks then die and you are exposed to less ticks.
Spray camping areas with Bifen II, Talstar, Onslaught, or Premetherin Pro. (From http://www.pestproducts.com/ticks2.htm)
Carying Doxy doesn't help much. You need professional care for most of the above. If you catch it early, it's several months of treatment. If caught late, you may or may not be able to make a full recovery.
Traveler
12-02-2015, 08:27
What research suggests this? Curious if they differentiate between AT hikers and those who hike a lot but not on the AT, how they count people who work in their yards, and how researchers have found ticks on most hikers.
fiddlehead,
Often the blood tests don't show Lyme until your body has had enough time to build up the indicating markers (anti-bodies).
I had three test before a positive one.
Same with my BIL, he had the classic ring rash (erythema migrans) but didn't test positive for over two months.
Early antibiotic treatment is the preferred method of treatment. Waiting for symptoms to manifest is not recommended as the disease is harder to treat once established. It's not as easy as getting symptoms a year later and then taking some antibiotics to take care of the problem.
Please find a "Lyme Literate" doctor, one who is up on the current care standards for Lyme.
BirdBrain
12-02-2015, 09:34
fiddlehead,
Often the blood tests don't show Lyme until your body has had enough time to build up the indicating markers (anti-bodies).
I had three test before a positive one.
Same with my BIL, he had the classic ring rash (erythema migrans) but didn't test positive for over two months.
Early antibiotic treatment is the preferred method of treatment. Waiting for symptoms to manifest is not recommended as the disease is harder to treat once established. It's not as easy as getting symptoms a year later and then taking some antibiotics to take care of the problem.
Please find a "Lyme Literate" doctor, one who is up on the current care standards for Lyme.
This link agrees with your assessment.
http://www.webmd.com/arthritis/lyme-disease-test
Simple logic would seem to show that by the time the test comes back positive, it is too late to stop the disease. What am I missing? I am no expert. The 2 prevailing attitudes seem to be don't take the pill until it is too late and take the pill just in case. In the mean time the debate over antibiotic resistance rages on. I thought the "how many ticks embedded" thread put that debate to bed. A large percentage of hikers never see the attached tick and therefore would not have taken the carried pill. A carried pill contributes nothing to anything. The new suggestion is just plain silly. Spray shelters? The trail is a greater risk. How about we just spray the entire planet? How about we look to ourselves instead? Given that many get the disease without ever seeing the tick and given that the disease is no laughing matter, it would seem that keeping ticks off hikers would be the best plan. Being proactive via doxy if you find an attached tick is a personal choice. Telling people what to do based on exaggerated statistics is ignorant at best and presumptuous at worse.
Now I wait for my rebuke from the lord of the technicality. I said I was done with this thread. I obviously lied. I just thought the embedded tick discussion squished this debate.
S
The days of hiking the trail in shorts are over. Now, its premethrin on long pants and long shirt, 25% deet on any exposed skin, and 100% deet on bandanna, hat, and shoes.
i hike in shorts, i wear none of that stuff. i see plenty of other hikers out in shorts too. dont know what they may or may not have on them chemical wise, but i rarely have encountered anyone who was obviously doused in chemicals (though i have met a few).
sorry, maybe "those days" are over for you and for a few others, but like much else discussed here, the reality of what goes on out on the trail is way different than what some people say here.
Waiting for symptoms to manifest is not recommended as the disease is harder to treat once established. It's not as easy as getting symptoms a year later and then taking some antibiotics to take care of the problem.
can you cite anything that backs this claim up? thats not as argumentative a question as i may sound, but i have literally never read or heard that from any serious resource. if such a resource exists, i'm seriously all ears. or eyes as it may be.
but no, what someone told you their DR said (or even what your DR told you for that matter) is not a resource.
T
Simple logic would seem to show that by the time the test comes back positive, it is too late to stop the disease.
depends on what you mean by "stop." stop infection with it? obviously. cure it? not at all.
i often think some people are just horribly afraid of getting infected with anything just because the notion of infection is something they are uncomfortable with. our bodies are full of and covered in all manner of microbes. thats just reality.
TheEngineer
12-02-2015, 11:10
The disease is harder to treat the longer you wait. At some point, the spirochete will form a bio-film. This in turn blocks the antibiotic. Serrapentase (2g/day) can be used along with the antibiotics to break up this film. Reference: at http://www.tiredoflyme.com/biofilm.html.
I've been bitten a couple of times. The first time, I didn't spot it until symptoms developed. It was a solid month of Doxy. Another time, I caught the little bugger, and started PEN-VK right away and continued for 7 days. I did not develop the disease this time.
The Phoenix
12-02-2015, 11:13
I came down with Lyme during my 2009 hike... things hit the fan while going through the Lemon Squeezer. I ended up falling asleep on the side of a road (which I have no real memory of). Thankfully, a hiker came past me, woke me up, and then ended up calling The Mayor. I had a 10 day stay with the Mayor & Co. What great people. I have visited them a few times since my Thru-Hike...
They brought me to town to get the Doxycycline, and within about a week I was nearly fully recovered. They wanted to make sure my health was truly back, so they let me hike out, only to meet me at the end of the day, to make sure I was okay. True trail angels.
The disease is harder to treat the longer you wait. At some point, the spirochete will form a bio-film. This in turn blocks the antibiotic. Serrapentase (2g/day) can be used along with the antibiotics to break up this film. Reference: at http://www.tiredoflyme.com/biofilm.html.
I've been bitten a couple of times. The first time, I didn't spot it until symptoms developed. It was a solid month of Doxy. Another time, I caught the little bugger, and started PEN-VK right away and continued for 7 days. I did not develop the disease this time.
is there any actual scientific/medical site that discusses "biofilm" as it relates to lyme disease? not inclined to overly believe someone trying to sell a book.
PEN-VK? never heard of that method of treating lyme disease. if you decided to just dose yourself with random antibiotics of your choosing i would say the fact that you didnt develop lyme disease is a coincidence, and further, you are exactly the sort of problem i am talking about.
TexasBob
12-02-2015, 12:24
Just to update my situation:
I had the blood test and it was negative.
I had the bullseye about 5" diameter about 3 weeks ago now.
I'm heading back to Thailand where they will know practically nothing about this disease.
So, hopefully i continue having none of the symptoms.
But it's been a learning experience.
I didn't take the one dioxcylene like I should have.
I listened to those on here who said to go to a doctor.
It took over a week to get the results.
By that time it's too late to take the one pill and everyone (PA deer hunters galore) around here tells me to just take the round of antibiotics.
That's what they do.
I have to agree with Tdozski or whatever his name is.
Too many people take antibiotics for every little thing and it is going to stop working some day.
I rarely take them.
Don't like pills.
It always amazes me that people will believe a load of B.S. they read on the internet written by people who really don't know what they are talking about and because of that will not believe what their health care professional tells them. This thread has done a real disservice to fiddlehead. Here is a person with the classic symptom of Lyme who is afraid to take the medicine he needs because of a load of bogus crap he read here.
It always amazes me that people will believe a load of B.S. they read on the internet written by people who really don't know what they are talking about and because of that will not believe what their health care professional tells them. This thread has done a real disservice to fiddlehead. Here is a person with the classic symptom of Lyme who is afraid to take the medicine he needs because of a load of bogus crap he read here.
fiddlehead has gone to see his DR and, as far as i can tell, is doing what his DR has ordered. or should he ignore his DR and instead take a different course of action, one which, lets be real here, would just be a different "load of bogus crap he read on the internet" just because it would be the load of bogus crap you subscribe to? seems to me that is what you are saying he should do.
theres plenty on the internet, not in this thread, concerning lyme disease i think is nonsense. perhaps you agree with some of it. doesnt make it not nonsense.
squeezebox
12-02-2015, 16:09
Next soapbox please!!
In my job, before I retired, and in my other hobbies, there are a number of activities that could go bad, so for the most part, I prepare for that. If I'm on a sailboat with nearest land 1k miles away, being prepared, even for rare events is often the difference between a great story and one not so great. I have spent my life on and near the shore and have only a few years of experience in the woods but I figure it can't hurt to use the same approach. Some of these maladies can affect much of your future, at least it appears that way. It's uncomfortable to wear treated long pants and sleeves hiking but I will. Certainly doesn't bother me that others think I am being over cautious, they don't have to live in my future so their opinion is probably influenced somewhat from the "I don't really care" perspective. If years from now I find out that I could have been cooler during the hike, ok, it's then a funny story. The other way around, not so much. I have a brother-in-law from Pa who caught lime disease hunting. He treated it fairly early but I guess treatment was not as good years ago and he is ok but left with what I would call arthritis like symptoms. Although his symptoms are not terrible, I would rather be hot for a few months. Not preaching to anyone and I don't have to be right, just what my approach will be.
fiddlehead has gone to see his DR and, as far as i can tell, is doing what his DR has ordered. or should he ignore his DR and instead take a different course of action, one which, lets be real here, would just be a different "load of bogus crap he read on the internet" just because it would be the load of bogus crap you subscribe to? seems to me that is what you are saying he should do.
theres plenty on the internet, not in this thread, concerning lyme disease i think is nonsense. perhaps you agree with some of it. doesnt make it not nonsense.
Some physicians are stronger in some areas than others.
Many physicians are not Lyme literate (thanks for the poster who introduced that term)-- especially those who do not serve a population that is routinely exposed.
Patients need to take responsibility for their health.
That this Dr did not discuss the CDCs recommendation for a prophylactic dose (single pill) is telling. That this Dr dis not discuss the high likelihood of false negatives for a Lyme test administered so soon after the possible exposure is telling. That this Dr did not discuss a special plan for a patient who was moving to Asia is telling.
This is not to say the Doctor came to the wrong conclusion -- none of us have anyway of knowing. If someone rolls a pair of dice and tells you doubles won't come up, they are going to be right over 80% of the time.
It is to say that this Dr would never see a member of my family.
One note on the bullseye rash -- which I would want to learn about from an expert were my own health at stake. Do good physicians tend to discount that symptom when it's onset is so soon after a bite? Some sources suggest it usually appers anywhere from three days to several weeks after on has been bit. Is the fact that it's onset was so early meaningful?
But thinking about future thru hikers.
If you were on the Trail with a camera, and decent understanding of Lyme and a pill from your personal -and trusted -- Doctor think of how different you own experience might be. In my area, it is actually possible to build relationship with your Doctor and contact them by email. If you think it could help build a relationship, take him a copy of Bryson's Book when you get a pre hike physical.
Be smart.
Some physicians are stronger in some areas than others.
yup, the weak ones are the ones who go around writing preemptive just in case prescriptions.
yup, the weak ones are the ones who go around writing preemptive just in case prescriptions.
It's easy to post a link, but this one is worth reading IMO.
It speaks to both what Tdoczi is saying, as well as what I am. In the end, good to be informed on this issue, and I think this link helps in ways that all of our posts may not.
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/07/prevent-lyme-disease-antibiotics
squeezebox
12-02-2015, 19:01
Spirochetes are the nastiest of bacteria. It's also a double membrane shell. So when the bacteria dies it spills the toxins into the host's system. Lot's of toxin all at once. Syphilis is the most famous of spirochetes. Lyme doesn't look too much different. The best thing to do in many infection specialist's opinion's is hit it hard and hit it fast. If you wait it might be too late. The current test is obviously less than perfect. This is not a low-end rhino infection, You've stepped into big boy catagory. Hit it hard, hit it fast, the consequences are much too severe to do anything else. And yes including worrying about antibiotic resistance.
I hope you never get Lyme or Syphilis.
I hope you never get Lyme or Syphilis.
perhaps off topic, but not really- do you know of many people with long term post treatment consequences of syphilis, seeing as how it is a similar bacteria? i would think that yes, such a thing would occur. i have never heard of it.
It's easy to post a link, but this one is worth reading IMO.
It speaks to both what Tdoczi is saying, as well as what I am. In the end, good to be informed on this issue, and I think this link helps in ways that all of our posts may not.
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/07/prevent-lyme-disease-antibiotics
one big difference- this is an article about someone who sought antibitoics from a dr post tick attachment, not prior. nto a subtle difference. not at all.
It's easy to post a link, but this one is worth reading IMO.
It speaks to both what Tdoczi is saying, as well as what I am. In the end, good to be informed on this issue, and I think this link helps in ways that all of our posts may not.
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/07/prevent-lyme-disease-antibiotics
"So it is a little bit tricky. That’s why the IDSA guidelines actually say that routine use of antimicrobial prophylaxis is not recommended, and only under very special circumstances would it be recommended. And so if a person met all those circumstances, we would do it"
thats a far cry from "here is a pill to carry with you in case you decide you want to use it."
It's easy to post a link, but this one is worth reading IMO.
It speaks to both what Tdoczi is saying, as well as what I am. In the end, good to be informed on this issue, and I think this link helps in ways that all of our posts may not.
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2014/07/prevent-lyme-disease-antibiotics
also a very illuminating quote-
"Dr. Wormser understood. “First of all, everything to do with Lyme disease is anxiety-provoking,” he said. “That’s the nature right now of the reputation that this disease seems to have. So that’s one of the reasons we offer this service, in part — not that we think it’s the end of the world if the patient should get a rash at the site of the tick bite, because then we just give them 10 to 14 days of an appropriate antibiotic and everyone gets better. It’s just that given the circumstances — the reputation and implications that people have drawn about this disease, whether they’re accurate or not — it has caused so much anxiety and concern for many people that we’re happy to offer the service of telling them yes, you might benefit from the 200 milligrams.”"
TexasBob
12-02-2015, 19:47
It always amazes me that people will believe a load of B.S. they read on the internet written by people who really don't know what they are talking about and because of that will not believe what their health care professional tells them. This thread has done a real disservice to fiddlehead. Here is a person with the classic symptom of Lyme who is afraid to take the medicine he needs because of a load of bogus crap he read here.
fiddlehead has gone to see his DR and, as far as i can tell, is doing what his DR has ordered. or should he ignore his DR and instead take a different course of action, one which, lets be real here, would just be a different "load of bogus crap he read on the internet" just because it would be the load of bogus crap you subscribe to? seems to me that is what you are saying he should do.
theres plenty on the internet, not in this thread, concerning lyme disease i think is nonsense. perhaps you agree with some of it. doesnt make it not nonsense.
I don't expect you to change what you think. That would require an open mind and the humility to admit you may not know as much as you think you do. It is just sad that you may have influenced someone to disregard their doctor's advice.
I don't expect you to change what you think. That would require an open mind and the humility to admit you may not know as much as you think you do. It is just sad that you may have influenced someone to disregard their doctor's advice.
i really dont see on what you base your conclusion that fiddlehead ignored his DR's advice on, but if that is what he did, i'd be the first one to tell him that wasnt wise. if you can stand to scrollback through all of this, youll also see my post where i tell him to go to the DR.