GSMNP Loop hIke advise [Archive]

Hosh

11-14-2015, 14:48

Hello,
New to this forum and looking for insight on backpacking in GSMNP. I am an experienced backpacker in the Central Rockies and SE Utah. I am planning a trip with my brother and his 2 sons. They are inexperienced, so thinking to keep the mileage down to 5 to 10 miles per day. We are looking at mid to late April 2016, for about 5 or 6 days.

My plan to date:

Start at Big Creek CG and hike up Big Creek trail to BC site 37 and overnight

Hike from BC 37 to Laurel Gap Shelter via either Swallow Fork or Gunter Fork trails over night at LGS

Hike from LGS to TriCorner shelter overnight

Hike from TCS to Crosby Knob overnight

Hike CKS to Big Creek CG

Originally I laid out a trans AT through the park hike and thought it would be a little much for mileage and pack weights

Some open questions:

Chances of snow? I looked at the historical web cams and saw nothing
15 deg quilts, pads and bags enough in the shelters
Do the shelters have fireplaces (can't tell from pictures I've found)
Tips for getting reservations needed
Water sources between shelters, I am now planning on carrying a single liter of H20
General idea on how busy, crowded route/shelters will be
Any other pearls of wisdom

Thanks, appreciate the opportunity to learn more.

Slo-go'en

11-14-2015, 15:30

Mid to late April is really busy along the AT section as there will be many thru hikers passing through. The AT shelters will be full to overflowing. As a section hiker, you will be required to squeeze in one way or another. If it is overflowing, thru hikers have the option of tenting next to the shelter, but if it's raining, they will be reluctant to do so. The shelters south of New Found gap have fireplaces built into the shelter wall. But I'm pretty sure Tricorner and Crosby Knob don't.

Sign up for reservations the day they open up, which is 30 days in advance.
Water shouldn't be an issue, but a lot of your route is along ridges where there isn't any. But it's cool enough in April you won't need to drink gallons.

Keep in mind that the Smoky Mountains are one of the wettest places on the east coast. They get a lot of rain and April is one of the wettest months. It will be cold and wet. If it's not actually raining, your often still in a cloud. In these conditions everything gets either wet or very damp. The trails will be significantly more difficult then your used to, although being a National Park, there a bit better then average.

I can't comment on your exact route as I've only been on the AT through the park. I would guess the Big Creek trail will have a number of fords which might be challenging if the water is high, and it often is in the spring.

gollwoods

11-14-2015, 16:08

that route is a very nice hike. the dates are a problem for the A T crowds. those two shelters dont have great space to tent any way. your reservation is supposed to reserve you a spot in theory. 6 spots are set aside for section hikers like yourself so if you go online and get a reservation technically your spot is reserved. but if you show up and it is really full I do not know what you could really do. it may be a ok but it may be a problem. if you do your route to 37 then laurel gap you may be able to go to site 29 on maddron bald trail. then down to the gabes mountain trail site 34 thenon east to lower cammerer trail and thae site there 35. then to the car at at big creek

Hosh

11-15-2015, 13:07

Thanks,
We should be in camp by mid afternoon. Will the shelters be full that early? The throng of humanity is an issue, not sure how that would work out.

I will start looking for another loop or lollipop route.

Not sure what the "trails will be significantly more difficult than you're used to" is based on. I have hiked in and out of the Grand Canyon 3 times and done 5 Colorado fourteeners. I know this will be a cool hike, but have to smile when I read about being at elevation, ie 6000' The wet environment will be a big difference. When it rains in the Rockies, it usually violent and short lived. There is always an ample opportunity to dry things out. I plan to bring a Zpacks tarp so we can have a dry community area.

Dogwood

11-15-2015, 15:41

"Chances of snow? I looked at the historical web cams and saw nothing"

The NP websites have weather info so you could learn to research that for yourself without having to inquire getting into a multitude of sometimes conflicting answers you'll likely have to sort through. http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/weather.htm

With your trip work off the higher elev temp and precipitation avgs keeping in mind these are avgs. YES, snow does fall in April in GSMNP YES, drifts can occur.

PackHorse

11-15-2015, 17:37

I might consider hiking this backwards. The boys might find it interesting all the thru hikers you meet between the two shelters and you'll be in the shelters with two different groups this way. Downside is.... first day is going to be longer.

Slo-go'en

11-15-2015, 18:15

Thanks,
Not sure what the "trails will be significantly more difficult than you're used to" is based on.

It's based on having done a lot of hiking on the AT and a modest amount in the Rockies.

The last time I hiked through the GSMNP it rained 5 days out 5. The all day, cold drizzle kind of rain which cuts to the bone. Didn't see the sun once the entire time. Hope you don't have to go through that. Slushy snow is possible in early April, but the likelihood is pretty small.

Hosh

11-15-2015, 20:35

Ok got that, grew up in Indiana so understand that dreary, cold rain.

I think about "trail difficulty" as elevation changes, altitude, switchbacks and exposure to risk of falling. Originally I was thinking about Baxter Creek to BC site 38 but figured the elevation gain was potentially a problem, especially with full fuel and food loads

Now I am wondering if we should avoid the AT altogether and a counter clockwise hike like Gollwoods laid out. It looks like Big Creek trail would be pretty interesting with various water features. Is Baxter Creek mostly a tree covered ridge or are there scenic vistas?

Slo-go'en

11-15-2015, 22:06

Don't know if there are any vistas along your proposed route, but in April the trees haven't leafed out yet so you get to see through the trees. One thing I did notice is the Baxter Creek and Sterling Ridge trails are horse trails. I dislike being on horse trails a lot.

The really good views are along the AT (but I don't think there is anything to write home about between Tricorner and Crosby Knob) They had to build a 70 foot concrete tower on top of Clingmans Dome to get a view there for the tourists.

Hosh

11-15-2015, 22:41

+1 on the horse trails, both Bright Angel and South Kaibab trails in the Grand Canyon NP are used for the mule trains to Phantom Ranch. My quads still hurt thinking about the ruts on the switchbacks.

TNhiker

11-15-2015, 22:56

one thing to keep in mind----cs 37 is one of the most popular campsites in the park....

you could have it to yourself----or you could have 30 people in there (and yes, i know thats over the number it holds but people show up anyways).......

One thing I did notice is the Baxter Creek and Sterling Ridge trails are horse trails. I dislike being on horse trails a lot.

baxter is hiker only.........

i really enjoy mount sterling ridge trail....

a very high up trail, that is, except coming from the gap---is almost fairly level............some views from this trail but not much............but it was a breeze to hike......

. I would guess the Big Creek trail will have a number of fords which might be challenging if the water is high, and it often is in the spring.

only ford on big creek would be up at the intersection of gunter fork....

the rest of big creek is bridged........

lower part of big creek (basically, most of the trail)----is an old roadbed thats wide and has bridges wide enough for a vehicle......

Is Baxter Creek mostly a tree covered ridge or are there scenic vistas?

its not a ridge hike............basically going up the middle of the mountain to get to the top.................where there are views via the mount sterling fire tower...........

Do the shelters have fireplaces (can't tell from pictures I've found)

yes..........only shelter in park that doesnt have a fireplace is leconte......

since its a shelter and more than likely wont have it to yourself----some people will want a fire...............others not...

and theres also a fire pit outside the shelter.............

Water sources between shelters, I am now planning on carrying a single liter of H20

you shouldnt have any problems with water during april........

theres plenty of little seepages along the way.................

Dogwood

11-16-2015, 02:35

"Ok got that, grew up in Indiana so understand that dreary, cold rain.

I think about "trail difficulty" as elevation changes, altitude, switchbacks and exposure to risk of falling. Originally I was thinking about Baxter Creek to BC site 38 but figured the elevation gain was potentially a problem, especially with full fuel and food loads

Now I am wondering if we should avoid the AT altogether and a counter clockwise hike like Gollwoods laid out. It looks like Big Creek trail would be pretty interesting with various water features. Is Baxter Creek mostly a tree covered ridge or are there scenic vistas?"

If you can do GCNP descending/ascending the BA Tr and S Kaibab Tr YOU can hike GSMNP. GSMNP is less sustained distance of elev change than your experiences at GCNP and probably the CO 14ers. With others in your party I can't tell. Altitude? Serious? You're party is from the Mile High City. Less elev gain/loss and exposure too. Risks of falling are almost nil compared to what you are familiar in the west/mid west. Only in a few places in GSMNP is exposure from falling a risk. You'll be below treeline almost exclusively in heavy mixed evergreen/deciduous forests. Views of rolling forested smokey ridges extending out less than you're used to in GCNP and CO. Extended views will mostly be at limited small overlooks, at Newfound Gap and high pts like fire towers and viewing platforms like Clingmans Dome.

"Tips for getting reservations needed?"

Look at a GSMNP trail map. One thing different about the GCNP corridor trails and 14ers of CO you are familiar are more trails/route options in GSMNP. There are almost 900 miles of maintained trails in GSMNP. These endless loop possibilities should be considered as alternates and alternate itineraries for the procurement of permits considered BEFORE applying. NP Rangers are more apt to give info IMO to those who demonstrate some research of alternates, trail characteristics, and logistics. You, being an experienced hiker, are already considering these things.

Consider some trails in GSMNP are maintained to different standards. Some trails or segments of trails are maintained for limited horse travel as well by emergency S&R teams, Rangers, etc. When these trails have recently been maintained they usually are more gradual overall, are more open, wider, higher, etc. This could factor into your choice of trails.

Dogwood

11-16-2015, 02:42

IMO, being used to the west/mid west's views definitely include in your loop known overlooks or high pts. You don't want your party to come away from a feeling of all that you experienced is a green tunnel and crowds unless that's what your want! Remember you can get views but also appreciate the differences compared to what you are accustomed. Soak in the great bio diversity of GSMNP, history(lots of cabins, cemetries, even towns absorbed into GSMNP, tumbling waters through boulder strewn streams, waterfalls, pedestrian bridges, etc. IMO, don't just be absorbed with the AT through GSMNP either. MIX IT UP!

MockingJay

11-16-2015, 09:22

[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;2019162] The shelters south of New Found gap have fireplaces built into the shelter wall. But I'm pretty sure Tricorner and Crosby Knob don't. QUOTE]

Both Tricorner and Cosby Knob have fire places built into the shelter wall.

illabelle

11-16-2015, 10:39

In my opinion, the best views on the AT inside the Park are on the narrow ridges of the trail in the northern half, like between Tricorner Knob and Charlie's Bunion. But, as others have pointed out, AT shelters and nearby tenting areas will be overflowing, and furthermore, Cosby Knob Shelter is frequently closed due to bear activity. I'd suggest a route that includes time on the AT (hopefully on a clear day), but plan to camp elsewhere.

We've planned a two-day trip in that area next summer. Looking forward to it!

Hosh

11-16-2015, 12:52

I like Dogwood's idea of visiting some of the natural features and historical sites. I have the National Geo map, not sure how detailed it is in terms of historical sites. I am considering purchasing the Appalachian Trail Guide to Tennessee/North Carolina guide. Is it any good and/or what's a better trail guide resource?

After reading the experienced hiker's post, I am getting gun shy of the AT Shelters. I like the idea of hiking the AT for a day or so and getting off trail for an overnight site.

Is Laurel Gap shelter comparable in terms of usage?

Farr Away

11-16-2015, 13:34

This is the Smokies reference I like the most:
http://www.amazon.com/Hiking-Trails-Smokies-Carson-Brewer/dp/B00LICO0X2/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1447695117&sr=1-2&keywords=hiking+trails+of+the+smokies

It's also known as the Little Brown Book.

-FA

Hosh

11-16-2015, 14:43

Sweet, very nice, on order!

Dogwood

11-16-2015, 14:53

Hosh, you are hitting up GSMNP for the first time and have an inexperienced crew in tow. Make the trip exciting, fun, and dynamic. Mixing it up helps keep all interested and have a memorable experience. As the trip planner you are already taking considerations into account that demonstrate your awareness for the different abilities in your group. Remember, we all can sometimes forget this, hiking is NOT just about hiking. As you know, you are significantly integral to the quality of your trip as the planner.

Although many get so narrowly focused on the AT in GSMNP through association of notoriety that is only a small amount of what GSMNP has to offer. As has been alluded to, and as you already have been planning, use some of the AT, perhaps taking in some highlights like great view pts ie;Shuckstack Mt(small at top but pretty cool on a clear day with it slightly swaying)/Mt Cammerer(***, large stone historical fire tower)/Mt Sterling(not on the AT)/ etc fire towers, Clingmans Dome(on AT, modernistic spiraling concrete viewing platform ), Mt LeConte(nice views, Lodge, history, nearby lean/to, not that far from the AT and Newfound Gap and lean-tos), Charlies Bunion(*** short narrow catwalk AT alternate, maybe more like you're used to out west), the Jumpoff(near the AT), night or two(or maybe not) at one of the AT lean-tos, Newfound Gap(touristy but with an outstanding view and history, on AT), abandoned tunnels that you can now hike through(not on AT), mines, bodies of water, etc. Those scenic rock strewn streams resembling a Thomas Kinkade painting and waterfalls should be at the height of their volume so good viewing time in April. I'd definitely include them in your trip planning. April is excellent wildflower and other plant of blooming times. Take that in! Might see some elk(in limited areas), black bears, owls, lots of other birds, fox, racoons, amphibians, reptiles(although still mostly too cold), see and hear some coyotes, etc

Depending on your nephews ages pick their interests( and your own and bros') by expanding your hike to appreciate a greater environmental awareness, history, and greater experiences than just hike, hike, hike. Use the interpretive GSMNP Visitors Center to your advantage in doing that! Go roast some wieners and marshmallows responsibly. And, PLEASE, if you go into the towns of Cherokee NC and Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge TN, realize that's not just what the Appalachian Mts or eastcoasters are about! :D

Oh, FWIW, in your planning, although you likely already know, the AT is on the highest ridge in the NP following the NC/TN state line. Unless you want lots of huffing and puffing don't design your loop bisecting the AT over and over as it will be up down up down up down with the most significant elev gain loss gain lose...

Hosh

11-16-2015, 15:17

Dogwood thanks, great advice. I sent my brother an email seeing if we can expand beyond the AT, it was his idea in the first place. Originally we were going to transverse the park SW to NE. No reason to make it into a death march and criss crossing the AT does seem to bring more elevation changes into play. My brother and nephews actually live in SW Ohio, so 6000' is a big change for them.

Every national park is a national park for good reason and exploring the park is a great idea. I know visitation at GSMNP is among the largest in the US, but I am hoping early spring weather will dampen the crowds.

Based on Farr Away's input I've ordered the little brown book. Is there any quadrant of the park that might be better suited?

TNhiker

11-16-2015, 15:48

When I get back on a real keyboard--I'll weigh in more

as dogwood says---the park is full of history...

hazel creek and places like old settlers trail are rich with history...

Dogwood

11-16-2015, 15:57

You're welcome. It's a group effort. GREAT attitude and expanded awareness.

When the student is ready the teacher will appear. Buddhist proverb

And, we're all student and teachers.

Love this: Every national park is a national park for good reason and exploring the park is a great idea. I know visitation at GSMNP is among the largest in the US, but I am hoping early spring weather will dampen the crowds.

When the weather is wet hikers flock to the lean tos. On those days consider getting a spot in a lean to earlier in the day possibly exploring out from there a little after you unpack, build a fire(check regs), etc.

Laurel Gap Shelter is a decent sized 14 person capacity GSMNP shelter renovated, I think, in 2011. Nice shelter. The GSMNP website has descriptions of lean-tos, shelters, and campsites that is quite well done some(most?) with included pics. You can see pics of many sites online by Googling.

+1 on Far Away's Little Brown Book rec. Sometimes the NP rangers use it themselves to get info to share with those getting permits.

madgoat

11-16-2015, 16:01

Hosh,

I think you are on the right track. I love that whole Eastern edge of the park.

Baxter creek trail is a rough climb, but in my opinion it is far worse to go downhill than uphill on it. Staying at campsite 38 on top of mount sterling is pretty wonderful with the firetower for good views unobstructed by the trees.

Mount sterling ridge is a nice easy stroll on over to Laurel Gap shelter. The AT is crowded with thru hikers around the time you want to go, but Laurel Gap should be fine. You probably won't have the shelter to yourself, but it shouldn't be too crazy.

Balsam Mtn. Trail is a nice ridgeline walk with decent views.

Tricorner Knob shelter and Cosby Knob shelter will probably be pretty busy. But you never know how crowded they will be. I have had AT shelters to myself in march and april, but other times have been crammed in there quite tightly. Regardless, it is a fun experience to meet up with the thru hikers and chat with them a bit. If you plan one or two nights in shelters, and the rest in campsites, then you will get a pretty good mix of experiences.

I love the AT section from Tricorner to Inadu Knob. The trail goes up over Old Black and skirts Mt. Guyot, and while the views are sporadic, it is all in high mountain spruce/fir forest (which i find mesmerizing).

Mt. Cammerer is a must. Expansive view with a large glass enclosed squat stone firetower. Great place for lunch, or to get out of the weather.

Mt. Sterling Trail/Long Bunk Trail/Little Cataloochee Trail has a fantastic array of old homesites, churches, and still standing cabins. It is a great history walk.

If you get down into Cataloochee valley, there are more old barns and homes. Also, they started repopulating Elk in this area several years ago.

HooKooDooKu

11-16-2015, 16:37

Hosh,

As an experienced GSMNP backpacker (with kids), here's my 2¢.

First of all, I have not hiked the AT in GSMNP during the AT hiker bubble, but from pictures I've seen, I would want to avoid AT shelters during the bubble.
Second, if you are going to be hiking in the Big Creek area, it would be a shame to NOT find a loop that includes either Mt Cammerer Lookout or the Mt Sterling Fire Tower.
Third, Do you really want to take inexperienced kids[?] on a 4 night hike? You might want to consider a 2 or 3 night hike first.

Here's my suggestions for the Big Creek Area:
Two Night: Big Creek to #37 to #38 to Big Creek
Three Night: Big Creek to #37 to Laural Gap Shelter to #38 to Big Creek
Four Night: Big Creek to #37 to Laural Gap Shelter to #39 to #38 to Big Creek.
For the hike between Laural Gap and #39, you can avoid backtracking hiking Balsam Mtn Tr to Balsam Mtn Rd to Palmer Creek Tr.
The only major ford would be at the crossing at the bottom of Gunther Fork Trail (the park service has warning signs to avoid this crossing at times of high water) and a minor ford of Palmer Creek Tr. I think Balsam Mtn Rd is closed that time of year, so the 0.7 mile 'dirt' road walk shouldn't have any cars to worry about.

Now what I think would make for a much more interesting loop is something including Gregory Bald. So here's my 1st 3 night suggestion with various options to make it 4 or 5 nights:
Park at the Abrams Falls trail head and hike to #17, to #14, to #13, to Gregory Ridge Tr Parking. From there, it's a 3 mile road walk back to the car.
You can easily add additional days by staying at #15 after #17 and #12 after #13.

Almost all of this hike is a lower elevations. #13 (which is ALWAYS windy) is the only high elevation camp. Most days are very few miles, but the hike from #14 to #13 is 8.5 miles long with more than 3,000' of accumulated elevation gain.

This loop would allow you to experience Abrams Falls, Abrams Creek (there's a small sandy beach near #17), Gregory Bald, and see some of the results of the tornado that hit the lower Hannah Mtn trail area (Beard Cane Tr and other areas north of Abram's Creek got the worst of it).

This loop would include a ford of Abrams Creek at the start of Hannah Mtn Trail. I've done this ford with a 7yo in October and November. If the ford causes you any concern, make your 2nd night at #15. Crossing Abrams Creek would make for only a 4 mile day, but its only a 7 mile day to hike around the ford by going thru Abrams Camp Ground.

There's not much to #14, as it's a small camp site pretty much right on the trail. There's likely to not be water right at the campsite, but there's a good water source along Hannah Mtn Tr. about 1/2 mile before you get to camp.

Get water for #13 on the way up about 1/4 mile before the camp. If you still have the energy, I would recommend hauling your stove up to the Bald (about 1/3 mile from the camp site) for dinner.

When you leave #13, don't bother hiking 1/4 mile back to the water source. Instead, about 1/4 mile past the bald, look for a trail on the right marked only by a sign that says "No Horses". Follow that trail to Moore Spring to water up for the day. Rather than hiking back up the hill, there is a level trail that goes from Moore Spring to the Gregory Ridge trail intersection.

You could hike this loop backwards, parking at the Gregory Ridge Trail head. That way, your longest day (between #13 and #14) is more down hill than up.

Hosh

11-16-2015, 17:34

Wow, keep it coming. I love the way backpackers take so much pride in their favorite haunts. It's a tight community and I really appreciate your help

HooKooDooKu

11-16-2015, 23:31

I forgot to mention, if you do the Abrams/Gregory loop, you will not only see a water fall, ford a beautiful creek, and see mountain vista, and natural springs, but the road walk between Gregory Ridge and the Cades Cove visitors center passes by a log cabin to toss a little history in.

HooKooDooKu

11-17-2015, 00:52

Another suggestion to look into:

One of the holes in my GSMNP accomplish map is doing the loop formed by Bear Creek, Welch Ridge/Cold Spring Gap, Hazel Creek, and Lakeshore.

The reason this is a hole in my map is because I usually do three-day weekend trips, and this is a four to six day loop.
The crux of the loop is an 8.4 mile day to hike between #75 & #83 (mileage includes side trip to High Rocks). Otherwise, camp sites are 3 to 6 miles apart along the loop.

There's many ways to do this loop, including starting with a hike thru a 1,000' tunnel at the end of the Road To NoWhere or boating across Fontana Lake and starting in the old town of Proctor at the intersection of Hazel Creek and Lakeshore.

If you want to look into this loop, here's a screen shot of the loop from my Google Earth file where I indicate the distances between trail intersections and camp sites (the back country map only shows distances between trail intersections):
32668

Farr Away

11-17-2015, 14:38

Another thing to keep in mind as you get close to your trip - keep checking http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/temproadclose.htm. Camp sites/shelters can be closed at any time.

We've ended up having to change our overnight plan on the fly when we showed up at the trailhead to find our intended site was closed. (It was before the online reservation system was implemented.)

-FA

TNhiker

11-17-2015, 15:29

Hosh

11-17-2015, 16:14

Thanks Farr Away, I will check it out.

How about Fontana Dam to BC site 88 (9.1M) to 77 (8.9M) to 74 (11.4M) to 83 (8.4M) to 90 (10M) to Fontana Dam via Lost Cove and AT ( then we can stop at Shuckstack)

My mileage is probably off, I am estimating on the Nat Geo map.
It's
an extra day than I originally planned but it looks like it's a lot flatter, except 77 to 74, and lower elevation. Lakeshore trail looks like it would be pretty cool and Proctor must be nice.

TNhiker

11-17-2015, 16:34

How about Fontana Dam to BC site 88 (9.1M) to 77 (8.9M) to 74 (11.4M) to 83 (8.4M) to 90 (10M) to Fontana Dam via Lost Cove and AT ( then we can stop at Shuckstack)

that's a good chunk starting first day out.....

after you cross eagle creek----lakeshore goes up and then down a hill to CS 88...

i really enjoyed CS88 when i stayed there a few years ago...........it was only open a few months and was not worn down like most campsites...

90 is a big site and more than likely you will see people..

also, keep in mind----lost cove is a good uphill pull.............your friends may hate you for this one.......

HooKooDooKu

11-17-2015, 20:13

The hike from Fontana Dam to #88 is 9.1 miles if you park at the trailhead at the intersection of AT/Lakeshore. But in the last few years, there have been many periods where repair work on the dam has closed the dam to vehical traffic (foot traffic has usually still been allowed). So if you park at the dam visitor's center and walk across the dam, you would have to add 1.2 miles to get to the trailhead.

The hike between the AT/Lakeshore trailhead and Eagle Creek has a lot of small (100s of feet) ups and downs. The hike between Eagle Creek and #88 also has a few ups and downs including climbing over a 500' pass.

It might not look bad on the trail map, but I would agree with TNHiker that that a bit of a haul for a 1st day for some inexperienced campers.

#74 to #83 would be a killer (from what I've heard of Bear Creek Trail). You're talking about a 12.7 mile day (which includes 0.3 miles both ways to visit High Rocks) with a 3,500' elevation change from #74 to High Rocks. I would DEFINITELY recommend you do NOT plan a day like that for beginners. If you take this loop, tackle the hill over two days staying at #75 one night. That still makes a trip from #75 to #83 a 9.4 mile day with a 2,500' elevation change from #75 to High Rocks.

Hosh

11-17-2015, 20:51

Got it, pretty much turns this into 6 nights. I have our initial pack weights at 25-26#'s. A six niter will push us over 30# with the extra food. Not sure if we'll go that long. It does look like a cool area. I do like the idea of lower elevations, less colder temperature exposures. I'll play around with a shorter loop or maybe even an out and back.

I've marked my Nat Geo map with everyone's suggestions, some top 10 hikes, and memorable landmarks. My little brown book is in transit, I think the elevation profiles will help me visualize the various daily hikes. Better to have a shorter fun hike, than a situation where people are bemoaning the next day's agenda.

My 23yo daughter is going to join us, she's an accomplished backpacker and a cross fit nut. Should help spread the load of our fixed overhead items.

TNhiker

11-17-2015, 20:54

Agreed......stay at 75 which will help with that uphill pull....

75 is also a nice spot and you probably would have that to yourself...

its to a good climb from there up to high rocks...

also--One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you'll add mileage by checking out some of the history along the way....

youll see things you'll wanna check out and that will add mileage...

for example---you'll pass a bunch of side trails not on map that will be marked no horses...

and you may wanna see where they lead. .

Hosh

11-17-2015, 21:33

TNhiker

11-17-2015, 23:16

Could I PCT hang packs at junction of Lower Mt Cammerer

i dont think rangers would allow this....

and yes, mount sterling trail is kinda steep............i didnt think long bunk was that bad although it is going uphill from cataloochee...

once you get the brown book----you see elevation profiles and that will give you a sense of the climbs/descents.....

HooKooDooKu

11-18-2015, 02:33

Hum, how bout

Big Creek CG to 35 to 37 to 39 to 38 to Big Creek CG

Could I PCT hang packs at junction of Lower Mt Cammerer & AT then dayhike to Mt Cammerer and then proceed to 35?

I know Baxter Creek is pretty tough, even in descent, so we could do a longer hike via Big Creek to return

The last part of Long Bunk and Mt Sterling looks pretty steep per mile, ( hard to read contour lines on Nat Geo map)
I think a loop that includes going out to #35 and climbing Long Bunk is a bit too ambitious for nubies.
Leaving pack at the AT/Low Gap junction... Well, park regulations requires that food always be properly stored. There are rules about how food should be hung (when bear cables are not available), but for only a 2 mile climb, it might not be worth it.
Don't worry about Baxter if you are hiking down hill. Even the nubies will be able to handle that at the end of the trip... but they will have sore legs for a few days.

If you really want to stay in the Big Creek area and you want to do 4 nights, I'll reiterate my suggestion of #37, Laural Gap, #39, #38 (via Pretty Hollow Gap).

Ok, so here's an easy 4 night trip for nubies...
Park at Metcalf Bottoms and hire a shuttle to Clingman's Dome parking lot. (A Walk in the Woods has vans that should hold everyone... I would estimate the cost around $85 +/- for the group). Camp at #23, #30, #21, and #20.

Now if you like getting your feet wet, another possible 4 night loop is to park at Clingman's Dome parking lot and do #61, #64, #70, #68. There are 5 deep stream crossings between #70 and #68, but I've done them a couple of times with kids.

illabelle

11-18-2015, 07:12

Could I PCT hang packs at junction of Lower Mt Cammerer & AT then dayhike to Mt Cammerer and then proceed to 35?

The hike from the junction out to Mt Cammerer is pretty easy and also short. Simple enough to just carry your packs along with you. We were there this summer, and saw that two or three other hikers had dropped their packs on the ground at the junction while they visited the Mt C tower. An intelligent observant bear or other hungry forest creature would soon learn where to find a meal.

TNhiker

11-18-2015, 10:49

The hike from the junction out to Mt Cammerer is pretty easy and also short. Simple enough to just carry your packs along with you. We were there this summer, and saw that two or three other hikers had dropped their packs on the ground at the junction while they visited the Mt C tower. An intelligent observant bear or other hungry forest creature would soon learn where to find a meal.

thats the intersection with the AT----the op is talking about hanging at lower mount cammerrer which is give or take 2 ish miles away from there....

Dogwood

11-18-2015, 11:26

Hosh

11-18-2015, 11:30

Well lots to choose from, I like the added utility of a shuttle. It opens up lots of other possibilities. After reviewing the NPS website, I didn't get the idea there's public shuttles, everything is private?

I've beginning to think we'll have fun wherever and likely will schedule another trip. Lord knows the park is huge and one could spend a lifetime exploring it.

I enjoy the planning piece of trips, but the main backpacking season is waning, maybe one more trip to Moab.

At any rate, great early season snow in Colorado, time to wax the boards.

Thanks for all your help and insights, I surely will have more questions after doing some more research.

Dogwood

11-18-2015, 11:44

No mercy. You have CO and take trips to Moab. UGHHH! I can use some Moab and CO right now. :)

Hosh

11-18-2015, 11:51

Dogwood

11-18-2015, 12:03

Have dead presidents? Are your checks good? Let's go. :)

Hosh

11-18-2015, 12:08

Have dead presidents? Are your checks good? Let's go. :)

The oven is 14"

I'll need to ask my wife

TNhiker

11-18-2015, 13:15

I suspected the usual GSMNP Nerd Groupies would chime in. Good luck with them. They will not stop until they give it all away and then offer to escort you on umm, "your" GSMNP hike. They could write a GSMNP hiking book.:):D;)

GSMNP nerd groupies?

i thought this was a discussion board where members shared their knowledge and expertise...

but, i guess i could quit doing that................

and yeah, some people want me to write a book..........so maybe one day.............

HooKooDooKu

11-18-2015, 13:18

I suspected the usual GSMNP Nerd Groupies would chime in. Good luck with them. They will not stop until they give it all away and then offer to escort you on umm, "your" GSMNP hike. They could write a GSMNP hiking book.:):D;)
Guilty as charged...

Just don't expect me to carry any packs for you. Even my own kids have had to carry their own packs (ok, I carried the 'shared' gear, but they had to carry their own sleeping bag, sleeping pad, and cloths).

No point in writing a book, the little brown book has already been written (and I own about 3 copies of it).
But actually, my biggest resource for planning hikes in GSMNP has been Google Earth combined, GPS data available at tnlandforms.us, and additions to the GPS data I've made over the years (such as the data to include distances to camp sites).

Well lots to choose from, I like the added utility of a shuttle. It opens up lots of other possibilities. After reviewing the NPS website, I didn't get the idea there's public shuttles, everything is private?
Yes. With the exception of a few particular events, shuttles within the park are private.

Two shuttle services I've used in GSMNP include:
A Walk In The Woods (http://awalkinthewoods.com/pages/wd_shuttle.htm) While mainly a guide service, shuttles are one of their many services.
AAA Hiker Service (http://www.aaahikerservice.com/SHUTTLE.html) Smaller outfit with a driver that always has interesting stories to tell during the drive.

BTW, now that I've gotten a chance to look at my Google Earth data, I can see a #35, #37, #39, #38 is doable. The hike over to #35 isn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I don't see nubies doing the 7+ miles from BGC to #35 AND a side trip to Mtn Cammerer (the 2.3 miles on the AT from Lower Mt Cammerer to the side trail is quite a climb... with or without packs). However, I still think the hike from #39 to #38 via Long Bunk to be too much of a distance that late in the hike for the nubies. I would backtrack up Pretty Hollow Gap instead. What is great about the back track idea is that the water source for #38 is about 1/3 of a mile BEYOND the campsite DOWN HILL. To avoid the extra mileage and hill climbing, you can make note of the 1st watering spot heading down Pretty Hollow Gap and use that as your water source to haul water to #38 rather than getting the water at #38 after you get there.

Hosh

11-18-2015, 13:48

Guilty as charged...

BTW, now that I've gotten a chance to look at my Google Earth data, I can see a #35, #37, #39, #38 is doable. The hike over to #35 isn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I don't see nubies doing the 7+ miles from BGC to #35 AND a side trip to Mtn Cammerer (the 2.3 miles on the AT from Lower Mt Cammerer to the side trail is quite a climb... with or without packs). However, I still think the hike from #39 to #38 via Long Bunk to be too much of a distance that late in the hike for the nubies. I would backtrack up Pretty Hollow Gap instead. What is great about the back track idea is that the water source for #38 is about 1/3 of a mile BEYOND the campsite DOWN HILL. To avoid the extra mileage and hill climbing, you can make note of the 1st watering spot heading down Pretty Hollow Gap and use that as your water source to haul water to #38 rather than getting the water at #38 after you get there.

Yeah, I looked at the elevation profile of going up the AT to Mt Cammerer and down to 37 and thought it was too steep, especially with first day food loads.

I did the Little Cataloochee/Long Bunk trails based on the presence of historical structure etc. I like the idea of hitting one of the fire towers, Mt Sterling looks to fit the bill. Depending on fatigue levels, we would have the option of backtracking or doing a new loop.

I will further investigate the shuttle services, opens up some new areas.

HooKooDooKu

11-18-2015, 14:44

Yeah, I looked at the elevation profile of going up the AT to Mt Cammerer and down to 37 and thought it was too steep, especially with first day food loads.

I did the Little Cataloochee/Long Bunk trails based on the presence of historical structure etc. I like the idea of hitting one of the fire towers, Mt Sterling looks to fit the bill. Depending on fatigue levels, we would have the option of backtracking or doing a new loop.

I will further investigate the shuttle services, opens up some new areas.

If you want to include Cataloochee/Long Bunk because of the historical structures, you could start at the Little Cataloochee trail head along Mt Sterling Rd.
Day 1: Little Cataloochee Tr to #39 (6.2 Miles)
Day 2: Pretty Hollow Gap Tr to Laural Gap Shelter (7.8 Miles)
Day 3: Gunter Fork Tr to #37 (6.3 Miles)
Day 4: Swallow Fork Tr to #38 (6.0 Miles)
Day 5: Long Bunk Tr to Trail Head (6.8 Miles)
If you need to make the loop a little easier, cut out down/up trip to #37, go from Laural Gap Shelter strait to #38 (5.9 Miles)

The two shuttle companies I referenced are located along 321 between Cosby and Gatlinburg. The usually operate between Cosby, Gatlinburg, Cades Cove, and New Found Gap/Clingman's Dome. So using their services for anything around Cataloochee, Cherokee, Bryson City, or Fontana might be cost prohibitive. (However, others can tell you about other shuttle companies that might be more appropriate for those areas.)

Hosh

11-18-2015, 14:54

Hosh

11-18-2015, 19:58

Thanks HooKooDooKu, that looks very doable. I also like the Abrams Falls loop.

I tried to do a shuttle hike from Newfound Gap to Crosby CG, but I think the distances are too long.

HooKooDooKu

11-19-2015, 12:27

I tried to do a shuttle hike from Newfound Gap to Crosby CG, but I think the distances are too long.
While I've got no idea about cost, what about a shuttle between Big Creek and New Found Gap?
That can be done with only one killer day if you can swing 7 days.

Day 1: New Found Gap to Kephart Shelter - 5.4 miles
Day 2: #49 - 6.0 miles (about 10 to include a side trip to Charlies Bunion)
Day 3: #48 - 6.0 miles
Day 4: #47 - 4.6 miles
Day 5: Laural Gap Shelter - 8.6 miles (big climbs) (via walk along Strait Fork Rd to avoid climb towards #44)
Day 6: #38 - 5.9 miles
Day 7: Big Creek CG 6.2 miles

Hosh

11-20-2015, 14:25

Got my little brown book, wow it's a great resource. Starting to digest our previous routes, it's a thick little sucker

HooKooDooKu

11-20-2015, 15:30

While the little brown book is full of information; when I plan GSMNP trips, I use Google Earth.

You get to not only see all the trails like you can on a map, but you can tilt the angle and quickly see what you're planning in 3-D.
I've found setting 'Tools/Options.../Terrain:Elevation Exaggeration = 2' to be a value that really helps show the hills without being too exaggerated.

While Google has a built-in layer that shows the trails (Layers:Primary Database/More/Parks/Recreation Areas/Parks), the data is old and in many cases, inaccurate.

I instead use the attached Google Earth data. It started with some data I originally found stored on servers at UTK (now found at TNLandForms.us (http://tnlandforms.us/gsmnp/)).
I've since reorganized that data, added some off-map trails, marked all the roads (because sometimes a short road walk is all it takes to make a loop), and created a whole set of Distance markers showing the distances not only between trail intersections but also the distances to campsites as well.
(All the icons point to icons I've created and stored on Google)
32701

My copy uses color codes to show what trails I've hiked and campsites I've stayed at as I track my progress toward the 900 Miler Club.

Hosh

11-20-2015, 17:54

Thank you, Thank you, must have take hundreds of hours to lay this all out. Sure beats the heck out of Nat Geo's map

HooKooDooKu

11-20-2015, 18:48

Thank you, Thank you, must have take hundreds of hours to lay this all out. Sure beats the heck out of Nat Geo's map
I'm not sure what was the source of the original UTK data. Hundreds of GPS track logs? Digital TOPO map data? No idea what went into getting that put together.

I myself have spend many many hours adding the tracks for roads, the mileage markers, creating icons, separating the 'Nature Trails' from the trails listed on the back country trail map, and adding details and side trails that are not in the UTK data or shown on the trail map.

Anyone utilizing this data, I ask that you please-please-please let me know of any errors you find (I've found several myself using this data over just the last year).
Also, if you have any track logs for other side trails that you know of, I'd love to add those to my data.

(Hey TNHiker... I'm talking to you... I'd love to include things like a track log of how to reach the boiler off of Forney Creek Trail)

A couple of notes about the mileage markers.
First it should be obvious that you can turn them all off/on using the check box for the 'Distance' folder.
But they are also loaded with information.
Click on a mileage marker and the 1st line tells you the trail name, the 2nd confirms the distance that should match the icon, and what are the two things at each end of the trail segment.

BTW: I would say that the difference between the 'Off Map' and 'Nature Trails' folders is that 'Nature Trails' are front country trails (i.e. relatively independent trails accessible from the road), while 'Off Map' is back country trails not seen on the official trail map (such as the JumpOff located near the intersection of AT/Boulevard).

TNhiker

11-20-2015, 21:16

(Hey TNHiker... I'm talking to you... I'd love to include things like a track log of how to reach the boiler off of Forney Creek Trail)

ha.....i was just reading the post, and thought id like to check out the track and all it's data...

then i remember, its data and tracks.............something im not sure i can directly handle..........as in, opening files and crap like that..

but, i'll give it a shot..........

as for the boiler on forney? that's easy..............ill send ya a PM on that one...

and fwiw----at this just came up on another forum----there's a bunch of artifacts, homesites, and cemeteries that are only accessible by boat ( i know, i know---this is a hiker forum, but thought maybe some people paddle as well)................

and for the data----guessing "off map" trails are different than manway type trails..............

TNhiker

11-20-2015, 21:31

whoa.............that map is intense.....

that is going to suck me in and consume all kinds of time......

i will look at it more when over the next week or so, when im up visiting my folks.....

HooKooDooKu

11-20-2015, 22:21

...and for the data----guessing "off map" trails are different than manway type trails..............
I don't really have enough off map trails yet to differentiate between well known paths like the Jumpoff and man ways like the path to Forney Creek Boiler. Actually, before today, I only had 'UTK Trails' and 'My Trails' (where I had already segregated UTK trails to seperate out the quiet walk way and nature trails). But as I was making a set of data to 'publish', I realized I needed descriptions that would make sense to the general public. Come to think about it, I didn't do anything yet to better merge UTK features (like the locations of water falls) and features I've added like the location of Moore Spring. I likely did think much about the features because I always leave them turned off. The mile markers alone make the map too busy until you are ready to check distances.

greentick

11-29-2015, 01:24

I think this is the most comprehensive "Smokies Loop Hikes" thread yet. Thanks yall.

Hosh

11-29-2015, 14:19

+1 on that, I feel like I have 10 years of experience in an area I've never stepped foot in. We're now starting to get gear purchased, my nephews and brother have to purchase some base, insulating layers and rain gear. I just sprung for a new EE 20 deg Revelation quilt during their Black Friday sale.

We still need to finalize our route, but with this thread and other tools, there's lots to pick from.

Any body got a half way reliable weather forecasting resource for the area? Where kinda tracking to mid to late April, but will start looking at reservations in early April.

HooKooDooKu

11-30-2015, 10:35

Any body got a half way reliable weather forecasting resource for the area? Where kinda tracking to mid to late April, but will start looking at reservations in early April.
From what I've heard, local guides count on Mountain Forecast (http://www.mountain-forecast.com/).
Select 'Appalachians' for the 'range'.
Select 'Blue Ridge Mountains' or 'Great Smoky Mountains' for the 'subrange'.
Then pick your desired mountain. I don't understand how they have data organized. The 'subrange' list is NOT alphabetized, and mountains you would think should be in 'Great Smoky Mountains' are not. For example, Clingman's Dome and Mt Guyot, mountains on the spine of GSMNP are NOT in the GSM subrange.
What's great about Mountain Forecast is that it gives the temperature forecast at different elevations for the chosen mountain.

While not a 'Prediction' site, another tool I often find useful is the National Weather Service GSMNP Temp and Precipitation Table (http://forecast.weather.gov/product.php?site=NWS&product=RTP&issuedby=MRX). It lists the Hi/Lo temps and rain fall from 5 GSMNP weather stations. The page starts with yesterday's data. If you click the various 'Versions', numbers, you get the record for that many days ago.

I also love the graphs shown at intellicast, but you have to assume the given weather is for the valleys:
GSMNP (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USTN0209)
Gatlinburg TN (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USTN0196)
Cherokee NC (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USNC0122)
Townsend TN (http://www.intellicast.com/Local/Weather.aspx?location=USTN0509)

Dogwood

11-30-2015, 19:41

The weather link was given given on the first page both for the highest elevations at Clingmans Dome and for Gatlinburg. Plus GSMP has live weather cams.

Hosh

03-28-2016, 18:26

Ok, got my permit, yipee. Had to do about 25 online reservations over 3 days because the "Pay Gov" site was down and would error out. You don't find out until the end, so I now have memorized my brother's Ohio vehicle license plate number. I am guessing Paypal was too expensive, too inflexible or too something for the Government to use. Hopefully "Pay Gov" didn't cost a billion dollars.

So, bitching aside, I need a little insight into water sources. We plan to stay 1 night at BC site 37, pretty obvious on sources. Hike up Gunter Fork or Swallow Fork to Laurel Gap Shelter depending on spring runoff levels due to creek crossings. Then hike to BC site 38 back to the trail head.

Thanks for all the help to plan it out, I think we have a good 3 nighter that will give the 4 of us a peak at GSMNP's beauty.

I plan to bring my Sawyer mini in line filter as a gravity feed from a MSR 4 liter bag. I also have a 10l StS bucket. The map indicates a creek crossing north of LGS on Balsam Mt Trail. I also have read of a spring near site 38, either to the southwest of the site or northwest of the tower, can't remember.

Some insight on spring/creek locations would be appreciated. We're going the last week of April.

TNhiker

03-28-2016, 21:45

For the shelter----there's a spring, if you go out the front side of shelter (it sits with its back to trail), and down the path a little...

if that spring is not running (usually only in late summer), go up to the intersection with mount sterling trail and go on that for a couple hundred yards.....and you'll see a seepage running across trail...

for 38---there's a spring down Baxter creek trail.....and there's a sign that says water..

this is is a good downhill/climb so you only really want to do it once....

Hosh

03-28-2016, 22:31

Thanks,

Curious, at that relative elevation, would you normally filter/treat water from the spring. I will, just for, but probably would not in a more isolated western location.

TNhiker

03-28-2016, 22:59

What elevation would I treat water?

thats easy---any elevation....

im not taking that chance so all my water is either filtered or boiled.....

madgoat

03-29-2016, 08:46

When I am hiking in the smokies, my tea tastes better than anywhere else. The water is clean and pure, but I always treat it or boil it, even if I'm getting it from a high up spring.

Probably don't have to do it, but 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure'. Not terribly interested in being hopped up on immodium with 3 days left to hike.

Hosh

03-29-2016, 12:07

I get it, I plan to treat, especially with my 2 nephews along.

If I were in a similar situation in the Rockies, higher point above ponds or grazing areas, and a natural spring came out of the mountain side, I would not treat it.

HooKooDooKu

03-29-2016, 19:14

The hike from 38 to the water source is something like 1/3 of mile (one way) and something like a 300 or 400 foot elevation decent. If I were doing your loop, I would just pack water from either Laural Gap shelter, or from one of the runoffs early along Mount Sterling Ridge. Once you hike about a mile or so from Laural Gap, you won't pass any water sources on the way to 38.

Hosh

03-29-2016, 20:18

Thanks, I have a 4 liter MSR roll top bag and some 2 liter Evernew bags. I am excited and hope we hit a good weather window.

Hosh

05-02-2016, 10:58

Just got back to Denver, really nice trip. We did Big Creek TH to bc37, Swallow Fork/Mt Sterling to bc38, Baxter Trail to BC TH. The Big Creek drainage is beautiful, clear water, nice pools and waterfall/plunges. Lots of flowers, great weather with light cloud cover and manageable humidity. The area at bc 37 was nice, next to creek, a bit dense (5 total groups) for my liking but still a good setting. Bear cables have disc for mice with plenty of capacity for everyone. There wasn't a privy, surprising with the number and density of hikers. I am guessing the NPS got tried of people leaving trash behind.

Hiked up Swallow Fork the second day, nice steady climb with another beautiful creek. At the intersection with Mt Sterling, there was an abundance of a small white flower in the ground cover. It was an amazing scene and the scent from the flowers was refreshing. My nephew saw the hind end of a black bear cub. We saw a couple of female turkeys, heard a male "thumping" in brush, and some red/brown squirrels. Getting to bc38 was a pretty good pull, 2800' for the day. The bc38 site was also crowded, compounded by a lack of anything close to flat ground. My brother and 2 nephews were sharing my CS UL4 tent and I was in my new CS UL1 (smart move). We had problems finding anything close to flat for UL4 and ended up very close to 2 guys we had met at bc37. A hammock would be a great option, since there were plenty of sturdy trees. Like bc37, no privy and lots of tp splotches everywhere.

Hiked down Baxter was a pounding 4100' descent over 6.2 miles. Quads and calves were rebelling with each step as we neared the trail head. Trail was not as pretty as the day's prior, but there were some really cool fern like mosses growing on the rocks. Not as much wildlife, but did see some day old scat near the BC TH.

Overall pretty fun, my nephews got a taste of backpacking for the first time. Both liked it a lot and talk of future trips. Being a "spoiled" Rocky Mtn guy, I was very impressed with area, lush forest, beautiful streams and flowers ruled the day.

Thanks to all who helped and provided input, we had gear and clothing dialed in with total beginning pack weights @20 #'s.

TNhiker

05-02-2016, 12:44

The area at bc 37 was nice, next to creek, a bit dense (5 total groups) for my liking

yeah.......thats the most used backcountry site in the park........

There wasn't a privy, surprising with the number and density of hikers.

except for times when the put a port a john out for cemetery visits-----the only places that have privies in the park are at shelters along the AT.........

The bc38 site was also crowded, compounded by a lack of anything close to flat ground

interesting............was this just around the main fire ring in the clearing near the tower? or did ya check out some of the sites that are kinda hidden in the trees............

glad you had fun...........and got to experience our lush woods and scenery.......

HooKooDooKu

05-02-2016, 14:11

Just got back to Denver, really nice trip...
Glad you enjoyed the hike... but I noticed you didn't make any mention of the fire tower at 38. Does that mean no one was brave enough to climb the stairs?

Bear cables have disc for mice...
The disc is for larger animals like squires... the mice will simply climb the wire you clip to the tree.

Hosh

05-02-2016, 16:13

We scouted below the fire tower into the trees, but it appeared that the ground continued to slope off. Perhaps we didn't go far enough.

My nephews went up the tower, I already had my pack on and the vistas were pretty limited due to fog, humidity and cloud cover. I have spent the last 12 weeks recovering from shoulder surgery and didn't get much time to get into shape. The walk up Swallow Fork and Mt Sterling to 38 was a gasser and passing on the tower fit into my mental state.

I didn't try to stop mice on the attached cables, since it looked like the grab handles were slick enough to stop them. We hung our packs and food bags with out any problems.

It's easy to understand how 37 is the most popular, pretty beautiful setting.