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gumby
12-07-2005, 14:14
Hello all of you Whiteblazers,

Let me start off with this. I have received quite a bit of information from this site for my upcoming thru in a few years and I plan on keeping up with WB happenings as much as I have been. I hope this thread will not diminsh your feeling to me.

I have one problem, I am not a Christian, I do not harbor any bad feelings to those that are, as a matter of fact I don't care what religion you are. What I am is Wiccan (also referred to as Pagan), we Wiccans refer to ourselves as Witches. Yes, men are witches also. We belive in only good, we don't sacrifice animals nor do we believe in Satan or Heaven or Hell. We do believe in reincarnation. We have several rules or Laws that we follow.
The law of return means that you will receive what you give, if you are bad then bad thigs will happen, etc. Much akin to Karma.
We also believe in nature and more than one diety. Our creator is the Goddess.
Our major law is the Wiccan rede, "an ye harm none, do as you will". Simply stated you can do as please as long as it does not hurt anything.
A good web site for more info is: http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/wicca0.htm

There are 82 threads on WB that use the term Christian when someone has given something to someone in a chartiable fashion. I give to charities and I gave to Miss Janet even though I haven't even met her yet.

There are many non-christians out there that might take offense to this. Jews, Bhuddists, Muslims to name a few. All I ask is that you take time to think about how much your words will affect people.

Not all non-christians are bad, just like all christians are not all good.

Think about it, if you wish to make this a religous battle so be it, I will not participate though. These are my feelings and I wish to remain friends with each and every one of you.

Thanks
Gumby:-?

MisterSweetie
12-07-2005, 14:23
Not all non-christians are bad, just like all christians are not all good. Ha, how many times did I have to read that to assure myself of what you meant. Not that it matters to me, I just didn't want to read you wrong. :p

the goat
12-07-2005, 14:26
so you consider the use of the word "Christian" as inciting a religious battle?:confused:

i haven't been able to find on this site where anyone said "all non-christians are bad".:confused:

am i missing something:confused:

gumby
12-07-2005, 14:33
so you consider the use of the word "Christian" as inciting a religious battle?:confused:

i haven't been able to find on this site where anyone said "all non-christians are bad".:confused:

am i missing something:confused:


No Goat, I just have read enough threads where someone take things the wrong way and starts a battle of wits, Take for example the thread about SGT Rock, MOST everyone was giving their support no matter of their personal feelings of the Iraq situation. Some did put their personal views that were not warranted.

No one said that "all non-Christians were bad", however some threads seem to sound that only christians were charitable.

and no you are not missing something. As a matter of fact I extremely enjoys your thread and your replies.

Gumby

Lilred
12-07-2005, 14:33
I'm not sure what the problem is either. This is not a christian site and whatever religion you practice is your business. Was something said to you inparticular regarding your religion? I'm not sure what made you feel you had to explain yourself, but as far as I'm concerned, you don't owe anyone an explanation. Some of my best friends are in the wiccan religion.....and I'm a christian. The trail is a great leveler. Don't worry about it.

gumby
12-07-2005, 14:41
I'm not sure what the problem is either. This is not a christian site and whatever religion you practice is your business. Was something said to you inparticular regarding your religion? I'm not sure what made you feel you had to explain yourself, but as far as I'm concerned, you don't owe anyone an explanation. Some of my best friends are in the wiccan religion.....and I'm a christian. The trail is a great leveler. Don't worry about it.

You are right, I have a sister-in-law that was living with us because she couldn't hold down a job and abused the hospitality we afforded to her. I even went to the extreme to put all my Wiccan items away so as not to upset her. She is a very Bible oriented person (if it isn't in the Bible it didn't happen), and my wife and I went out of our way to accomadate her.
Well, she never understood me nor my way of life, nor did she even try to understand it. We spent over 6 months with her giving use so much sh** that I reached my boiling point. She took so much advantage of us that we will have a very small Christmas because she used up all of our savings to help support her and her son.

I guess today that I felt that I needed to let off some steam.

Let me say this, If I upset someone I apoligize and that is from the heart.

Gumby

QHShowoman
12-07-2005, 14:43
Hmmm. Interesting post. I am not a christian. I am not really anything as far as the spectrum of organized religion goes. With that said, I don't take offense to the term "christian charity" (not that I actually use the term) because I always assumed that the term was being used colloquially, and not literally ... but maybe that's where the problem lies.

To play devil's advocate (I apologize in advance if this term offends any satanists out there), if I were a christian and felt that something I did constituted good "christian charity," I suppose it might be offensive to me to NOT be able to refer to it as such for fear of whom I might offend. For example, should I not decorate my house for christmas because it might offend my jewish neighbors?

The bottom line is, everyone has different boundaries when it comes to what offends them and while I think it is reasonable to urge WB members to think carefully about the terminology they use, its nearly impossible not to offend SOMEONE here if you are an active member. As much as I'd like to think that this is a place where anyone feels welcome, sadly its not ... and the reasons why extend far beyond the use of the term "christian charity."

Heck, it is beyond me why some folks here seem to not be able to understand that this is a DISCUSSION forum ... meaning that it should be okay for folks to disagree with their points of view without suffering the wrath of their personal attacks or inflammatory comments.

At any rate, if that term offends you Gumby, I'll do my best not to use it ... it shouldn't be hard for me.

Lone Wolf
12-07-2005, 14:49
Way too much PC BS in the world today.:rolleyes:

kyhipo
12-07-2005, 14:55
well gumby i was a terrible alcoholic just couldnt drink at all and yes I am a lay minister now but people use the word christian in a broad term,when in fact no one has the right to treat others bad,I went thru a very simular situation with my sister recently,after being verbally attacked and attacked on my beliefs I just had to cut it off,so bottom line mean people stink ky

Tha Wookie
12-07-2005, 14:57
Way too much PC BS in the world today.:rolleyes:

Yeah, what ever happened to the good 'ole days when we could offend anyone we wanted without reprimand?

Tinker
12-07-2005, 15:17
I am a "Christian", yet most of my "brothers" call me a host of names because I don't believe that God can be, will be, or ever has been, a man.

I'm well read enough in scripture to give my opponents much to think about, but the problem is that many have made up their minds already.

I do not think that just because someone espouses a title that they necessarily represent other title holders accurately, since we all are individuals and don't even agree on the definitions of words many times.

I also believe that God's people are neither Christian nor Jewish, necessarily, but those, who live holy to the best of their abilities, because they LOVE God, using Jesus Christ (meaning "anointed", as in King) as their role model.

Yes, I understand all too well that being excluded is sometimes more painful than open oppositon.

There are many wonderful people who don't believe as I do, and I'm thankful for their lives and good deeds.

Mags
12-07-2005, 15:26
Yeah, what ever happened to the good 'ole days when we could offend anyone we wanted without reprimand?
They are both sides of the same coin. Extremism is seldom good.

Call me a "dumb wop" is very offensive. Getting offended at "Shark's Tale" because they portray Italian-Americans in a bad light is equally ludicrous. [1]

Taking it a little less specific, it is good to be sensitive to a person's feelings. However, it can be overdone. Striking the balance can be hard. That is why many people find it easier to be extremists.


[1] This actually happended! Some Italian-American groups wanted to boycott the movie.. Sheesh.

Rain Man
12-07-2005, 15:47
There are many non-christians out there that might take offense to this. Jews, Bhuddists, Muslims to name a few. All I ask is that you take time to think about how much your words will affect people.

Gumby,

Also, there are many Christians who might take offense to that, too.

This is an extremely difficult for many "Christians" to deal with, or even to understand, as it is so ingrained in them and our culture. So it might be enlightening for some that you bring it up. I hope so.

One interesting thing for "Christians" to ponder is that in Jesus' day, the folks with the most religiosity and orthodoxy and the most public protests of piety and the claims of supremelism (my god/sect is bigger and better than your god/sect) were the very folks who "didn't get it" then, either.

If there's a correlation between public self-pronouncements of religiosity and actual religiosity, then I believe it's more often than not a reverse correlation. Like you, I don't really need to hear folks publicly pat themselves on their own backs claiming their "Christian" status. After all, even the Gospels teach to act in secret, then God will reward openly.

Anyway, Gumby, I think there are lots of Christians who might silently agree with you.

Rain:sunMan

.

Lanthar Mandragoran
12-07-2005, 15:51
Realize that there can be two ways to use the term "christian"

1) One who follows Christ, aka someone who professes christianity

2) Someone who acts like Christ, Jesus was all about helping people, so using the term christian and charitable are somewhat synonymous. In many ways this usage actually predated the first.

I agree that there are certainly Christians (#1) who aren't very Christian (#2).

However, getting too offended at usage #2 is kind of like me complimenting a friend on a particularly wise saying "That was very Zen" and him responding "I'm NOT a Buddhist!"

PS - I realize that the above example is probably not correct as I really haven't taken too much time to time to study Eastern religions

phatfish
12-07-2005, 16:00
It's important for all wiccans to know their roots. :p http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1005/wiccachartlarge.gif

gumby
12-07-2005, 16:09
It's important for all wiccans to know their roots. :p http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1005/wiccachartlarge.gif

Obvisously you do not know our roots, I did not offend anyone, however you graphic is very offensive to me. Nothing in that chart is actual, Wiccans are not Satanists.

However, if you meant it as a joke so be it.

gumby

Mags
12-07-2005, 16:33
Obvisously you do not know our roots, I did not offend anyone, however you graphic is very offensive to me. Nothing in that chart is actual, Wiccans are not Satanists.

However, if you meant it as a joke so be it.

gumby

The Landover Baptist site is a parody of extreme Christianity. I don't think sensible people associate gardernnig with Wiccan or new age Paganism.

I do not know you personally, so I am not directing this comment to you.

But, I've noticed that extreme Christians and extremist of non-Christian religions often lack a sense of humor.

There were some jokes about Kansas Evangelicals at a camp fire one night. We laughed. I then made a joke about Buddists with $500 prayer mats (found in Boulder) and I got some dirty looks. :-)

Kinda like Ann Coulter and Michael Moore. Similar style of humor. Both have big egos. Different political views.

Alligator
12-07-2005, 16:41
When I was younger I thought about becoming a Buddist, but it would have meant giving up my water bed.

Being a young man, the water bed won out;) .

Just Jeff
12-07-2005, 16:46
HAHAHAHA....I almost fell out of my chair laughing at that picture!! That's the funniest thing I've seen in about six months! I'm still laughing!

I understand what you mean about some people commonly associating "good" with "christian" and having a hard time understanding that things like spirituality, charity, integrity and morality can stand independently from the Bible. Just because some people can't divorce morlaty from religion doesn't make it true. Though I've seen some folks make that link here on WB, I give them the benefit of the doubt because it's only a quick blurb in a post - I know I've written things here, and when I read it later it had a different tone than I intended. As long as no one is outright offensive, just let it go, man. You only have to convince yourself.

As for hiding stuff in your own house...you're on your own there. :)

Ender
12-07-2005, 16:52
It's important for all wiccans to know their roots. :p http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1005/wiccachartlarge.gif

Dude, that's funny. I forwarded it to a few wiccan friends of mine (as well as all my other friends) and they loved it. Nice...

I'm not christian, as a matter of full disclosure. A few of my less than PC non-christian friends refer to acting "christian" in the negative, refering to some of Christianity's less than stellar historical gaffs (inquisition (what a show), crusades, Salem witch trials, etc...). Turning the phrase around at those more pestering sort who insist that their way is the best.

Me... I try to accept all. I have athiest friends, agnostic friends, wiccan friends, Catholic friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Muslim friends, Hindi friends... even have a friend in seminary. I also try to find the humor in everything, as taking life too seriously made me quite miserable for a number of years until I just learned to let go and enjoy. And anything I can't just let go I try to ignore... usually works.

D'Artagnan
12-07-2005, 17:00
Who knew 'NSync was "Acid Rock"? Learn something every day I guess. :rolleyes:

phatfish
12-07-2005, 17:07
Mags: Ha, I've totally seen those $500 prayer mats! Hilarious. I also found just about everything about the http://www.shambhalamountain.org/ (http://www.shambhalamountain.org/) in northern CO to be equally funny.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Gumby: I'm DEAD serious... Why else would I have used ;) and :p ?
<o:p></o:p>
Seriously though, this is the internet...gotta learn to be less sensitive.<o:p></o:p>
In order to help you learn to laugh when things are funny AND to not take everything so seriously, here is some more reading material for you. :) <o:p></o:p>
http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/ (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)
<o:p></o:p>
I personally like the parody wiccan site the best.<o:p></o:p>
http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/parody.html (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/parody.html)<o:p></o:p>

Mags
12-07-2005, 17:27
When I was younger I thought about becoming a Buddist, but it would have meant giving up my water bed.

Being a young man, the water bed won out;) .

I'm too poor to be a Buddist: http://www.greatyoga.com/cgi-bin/browse?action=display&category=&product=73

Wonder what Budda would think of expensive wax in his image? Same thing Jesus would have thought about expensive statues in his image I bet. :D

I can afford to be a grumpy atheist though. ;)

fiddlehead
12-07-2005, 17:47
Hello all of you Whiteblazers,


There are many non-christians out there that might take offense to this. Jews, Bhuddists, Muslims to name a few. All I ask is that you take time to think about how much your words will affect people.


Gumby:-?

I would be very surprised to find any Bhuddists taking offence to it.
They are the most "live and let live" folks i have ever met.
Live for today!
(and don't get so uptight about what others think. )

Mags
12-07-2005, 18:23
The world was created by his noodley appendage. Ramen.

http://www.venganza.org/

As hikers, we should all worship him.

Seeker
12-07-2005, 18:32
i was raised a roman catholic... now i'm a Roamin' Catholic. actually, the nuns and priests managed to beat religion into me at a very early age... wasn't until a life crisis left nothing to fall back on that i realized what had happened... gotta agree with Lanthar's distinction between christians... i try to be defined by my works anymore, vs what my 'group' is called... i still attend a catholic bible study every sunday, but don't go to mass. go figure... that diagram was hysterical... i guess you could do something similar with just about anything... i think i can explain the "n'sync as acid rock" paragraph... has to do with it's effect on the brain... too much of either isn't a good thing, imho... def leppard and motley crue (how could they leave them off?!) are good in large quantities... another thought... christ's messege was 'do good'. he condemned the scribes and pharisees for having turned the law into the end vs the means. this probably applies to most formal religions today. and no offense to my wiccan brethren, but 'do no evil' is not the same as 'do good'... but therein may lie a reason for people's resistance to it... don't know... i just be tolerant... oh. one more thing... someone alluded to it earlier, and i just wanted to share a variation... ''my jesus is better than your jesus''...if this discussion is any indication of potential campfire discussions on a thru hike, i'm gonna really look forward to it... god bless us, every one...

Frosty
12-07-2005, 18:38
Our major law is the Wiccan rede, "an ye harm none, do as you will". Simply stated you can do as please as long as it does not hurt anything.This law will result in starvation to avoid hurting cattle, chickens, carrots, potatoes, etc etc etc, though maybe you could survive on stuff that was never alive, like those cheese packets in Mac-cheese dinner boxes. Can't eat the noodles, though, without hurting a lot of wheat plants ....

the goat
12-07-2005, 18:55
It's important for all wiccans to know their roots. :p http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1005/wiccachartlarge.gif

hey they spelled def leppard wrong!!! blaspheme!!!!

twizzlefizzle
12-07-2005, 19:38
My awesome friend is wiccan.

twizzlefizzle
12-07-2005, 19:53
Hey, I never got to finish. As I was saying, my friend is wiccan. And his father used to big a big christian minister in our small town. So being a wiccan was definitely a big deal in his family.


I also try to find the humor in everything, as taking life too seriously made me quite miserable for a number of years until I just learned to let go and enjoy. And anything I can't just let go I try to ignore... usually works.

I am the reverse of you . I used to not take things too seriously and ignore things. It was all about me, my life, my girlfriend, my future, me. I was pretty dense to other things, and ended up hurting a friend doing that. I didn't realize how bad at the time, until I read her take of me in her blog. That stung and was my wake up call. So after a really long apology letter later, I now ignore less and act more seriously. And by the way, I'm neither wiccan or christian, just me.

Oh I got here looking for pepsi can stoves. Guess this thread isn't it.

the1stranger
12-07-2005, 22:06
Don't care what religion anyone is. if you HAVE to try to believe in something just go ahead and do it and try not to advertise it or start a war over it. It happens just as easily on forums as it does in the real world. By the way, I will destroy the world, so prepare now.

chief
12-07-2005, 23:47
wiccan, christian, etc. all loonie tunes to me!

The Desperado
12-08-2005, 01:52
Amen..Ender. Most of my family were/are quakers, some practice the native religion [native american] and some are catholics & even a few of "I dont know whats"...........I talk to them all. Your last paragraph says it nicely.

RedneckRye
12-08-2005, 02:10
OK, let me get this straight.

I gotta go thru Def Leppard then 311 then N'Sync, then ACID ROCK then WICCA to get to SATAN?

Can't I just pop in a SLAYER disc and skip all those other incredibly lame steps??

Just wondering.

:dance :dance :dance

(Close as I could come to a dancing SATAN!!!)

Sly
12-08-2005, 02:29
Me... I try to accept all. I have athiest friends, agnostic friends, wiccan friends, Catholic friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Muslim friends, Hindi friends.

I was raised a Catholic and always considered myself a Christian but in todays world I guess I was mistaken.

Disney
12-08-2005, 05:42
Wow, maybe I'm crazy, but if N'Sync doesn't come from Satan then where could it come from? I've heard alot of music but I don't think that quite qualifies. It's horrible horrible stuff.

Just Jeff
12-08-2005, 10:37
I was raised a Catholic and always considered myself a Christian but in todays world I guess I was mistaken.

Some Protestants (especially in the deep south) tend to think of Catholocism as idolotry, and therefore not quite Christian. I never really saw enough distinction to say it wasn't Christianity since Catholics still worship Christ and all, but some folks get downright vehement about it.

And yes, NSync does come from the devil.

Ender
12-08-2005, 11:18
I was raised a Catholic and always considered myself a Christian but in todays world I guess I was mistaken.

Clearly that's not what I meant, and you know that, you big trouble maker :p

I just wanted to distinguish between general Christians (not up on my religion, so are they all Protestants? I honestly am not sure) and Catholic Christians, without having to write more than I had to. Obviously next time I'll have to take that extra step to avoid, well, this....

Sheesh... ;)

Alligator
12-08-2005, 11:26
I was raised a Catholic and always considered myself a Christian but in todays world I guess I was mistaken.
I know it sounds incredible Sly. I've heard this many times myself.

otterman
12-08-2005, 11:34
We are in a lot of trouble if we start taking every expression literally. Someone is a real "witch". That was on "hell" of a mountain. Personally, I don't have the time or the desire to analyze every expression that is used in daily conversations.
P.S. It won't bother me a bit if you refer to Wiccan charity.

Alligator
12-08-2005, 11:47
Ender,

Protestants are generally considered to be those churches that broke with Catholicism or evolved from a church that broke form Catholicism following Martin Luther. Not a religious scholar either by any means though.

There was of course, the Great Schism, which lead to the split between Orthodox Christians and Catholics. These two are considered to be the first Christian churches. If you say Catholic vs. Protestants, you leave out a large number of Orthodox Christians. There are also Coptic Christians another very old Christian church but with a comparatively small number of adherents.

Ender
12-08-2005, 11:58
Ender,

Protestants are generally considered to be those churches that broke with Catholicism or evolved from a church that broke form Catholicism following Martin Luther. Not a religious scholar either by any means though.

There was of course, the Great Schism, which lead to the split between Orthodox Christians and Catholics. These two are considered to be the first Christian churches. If you say Catholic vs. Protestants, you leave out a large number of Orthodox Christians. There are also Coptic Christians another very old Christian church but with a comparatively small number of adherents.

Thanks! Very interesting. I am intrigued... I'm going to have to look into this more deeply and become more familiar with it. I had completely forgotten about the Orthodox churches, which is funny because I lived for years in Astoria NY, which has one of the largest populations of Greek Orthodox in America. Go figure. Ever been to a Greek Orthodox mass? Long, like four hours, and in Greek, which I don't speak. Pretty though.

Don't know anything about the Coptic Christians. I'll have to learn! :)

Thanks again!

gumby
12-08-2005, 12:24
The Landover Baptist site is a parody of extreme Christianity. I don't think sensible people associate gardernnig with Wiccan or new age Paganism.

Actually I know nothing of them, but my apologies, I took the graphic as being offensive, in retrospect it is pretty funny, Oh and they got Hillary correct.

gumby

gumby
12-08-2005, 12:26
Gumby: I'm DEAD serious... Why else would I have used ;) and :p ?
Seriously though, this is the internet...gotta learn to be less sensitive.<O:p></O:p>
In order to help you learn to laugh when things are funny AND to not take everything so seriously, here is some more reading material for you. :) <O:p></O:p>
http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/ (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/)
<O:p></O:p>
I personally like the parody wiccan site the best.<O:p></O:p>
http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/parody.html (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/parody.html)<O:p></O:p>


I apologise, I didn't see the ;) or:p , as for the other sites, I've been to them before and they are really funny.

gumby

gumby
12-08-2005, 12:29
OK, let me get this straight.

I gotta go thru Def Leppard then 311 then N'Sync, then ACID ROCK then WICCA to get to SATAN?

Can't I just pop in a SLAYER disc and skip all those other incredibly lame steps??

Just wondering.

:dance :dance :dance

(Close as I could come to a dancing SATAN!!!)

Just blue Blaze it.

gumby

Lone Wolf
12-08-2005, 13:22
If I was gonna "be" any religion it would be catholic. You can drink, cheat on your spouse, etc., etc all week long then on Saturday go confess all your bad s**t to some gay guy in a booth and be forgiven and be right with god.:)

Marta
12-08-2005, 13:28
I think you're referring to "Confess and Continue," which is why France and Italy have always found Catholicism so rewarding.

Alligator
12-08-2005, 13:33
Thanks! Very interesting. I am intrigued... I'm going to have to look into this more deeply and become more familiar with it. I had completely forgotten about the Orthodox churches, which is funny because I lived for years in Astoria NY, which has one of the largest populations of Greek Orthodox in America. Go figure. Ever been to a Greek Orthodox mass? Long, like four hours, and in Greek, which I don't speak. Pretty though.

Don't know anything about the Coptic Christians. I'll have to learn! :)

Thanks again!
I was married in a Greek Orthodox Church, does that count:D . And then the next day, I got married outside too. My wife's uncle used to have a brownstone in Astoria, but that was long before I met her. Never been to Astoria though.

Ender
12-08-2005, 13:53
I was married in a Greek Orthodox Church, does that count:D . And then the next day, I got married outside too. My wife's uncle used to have a brownstone in Astoria, but that was long before I met her. Never been to Astoria though.

Sure it does! Heck, for most weddings they give a full mass. That's how I got the pleasure of sitting through one.

Astoria can be both nice and not so nice, depending on where you are, but for NYC, it's really pretty pleasant. I wouldn't mind moving back there if I had to move again. Plus, the food there is absolutely fantastic.

general
12-08-2005, 14:37
If I was gonna "be" any religion it would be catholic. You can drink, cheat on your spouse, etc., etc all week long then on Saturday go confess all your bad s**t to some gay guy in a booth and be forgiven and be right with god.:)

that's too easy ain't it. i think i'm gonna convert.

Sandy B
12-08-2005, 20:36
I worked with a jewish man who allways signed up to work on Christmas, He said "it was the christian thing to do"

He made the differences a joke and said "to each his own"

Kinda like "hike your own hike"

Sandy

digger51
12-08-2005, 21:10
How a person believes or not is not concern of mine. By the way I am a Christian. My confusion here comes from your concern about spending your savings on your sister so yu will have a small Christmas. If you aren't Christian or believe in Christ what do you celebrate that you need the money for? Well Merry Christmas to all anyway.

DMA, 2000
12-08-2005, 23:32
It wouldn't be Christian to deny your children presents, good food, and all that fun just because you don't believe in Jesus.

Just Jeff
12-09-2005, 00:12
I've always wondered why people (even every Christian I've ever known) ask, "What did you get for Christmas?" instead of "What did you give for Christmas?"

Seems like the latter would be a more "Christian" concern.

Mother Nature
12-09-2005, 11:12
"Some Protestants (especially in the deep south) tend to think of Catholocism as idolotry, and therefore not quite Christian".

Sorry, Can't figure out how y'all get a quote in the little blue box. Can someone enlighten me?

Several years ago while getting dental surgery my dentist was engaged in a discussion with his young technician about her college research paper. He mentioned that I was a librarian and maybe I could help. When the surgery was finished, the technician filled me in on her dilemma. It seems that her professor objected to her topic as inappropriate to a political science class. Her topic was that "Christians Are Discriminated Against in the Modern World". When I quizzed her on her paper objectives she told me she was appalled that Catholics were allowed to display unchristian objects in public places but Christians were not allowed. I truly was puzzled and told her I was raised Catholic and I didn't understand what she meant. Could she cite a few examples for clarity. She bolted out of the room holding her fingers together as a cross and screamed "Get away from me Satan worshipper!" Thank god the surgery was done before she found out I was raised Catholic! I gathered my things together and went to the receptionist to reschedule a followup appointment. She saw I was rattled and asked if I was OK. I told her what happened; she puckered up and gave me a hateful look saying, "You are what you are!".

A second incident occured just yesterday. My hairdresser recently started a Bible reading class and was inquiring if I would like to join. She asked if I was a Christian. I told her I had been raised as a Catholic. She timidly asked me if it was true that Catholics worship idols and don't believe in Jesus?

I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened to me.

Mother Nature

justusryans
12-09-2005, 12:01
Tell em you're a Jehovah's Witness, and you want to share the Lord's Message with em!! :D :D

Lone Wolf
12-09-2005, 12:03
How come only catholics see the virgin Mary in trees, on bagels and windows and such?:D

justusryans
12-09-2005, 12:08
How come only catholics see the virgin Mary in trees, on bagels and windows and such?:D

You forgot the grilled cheese sandwich.

we see her cause we are alway's looking!!:p

c.coyle
12-09-2005, 12:27
If I was gonna "be" any religion it would be catholic. You can drink, cheat on your spouse, etc., etc all week long then on Saturday go confess all your bad s**t to some gay guy in a booth and be forgiven and be right with god.:)

A Catholic boy and a Jewish boy were talking and the Catholic boy said, "My priest knows more than your rabbi." The Jewish boy said, "Of course he does, you tell him everything."

Pretty good setup, ain't it? We can gamble, too. :D

Just Jeff
12-09-2005, 12:42
"Some Protestants (especially in the deep south) tend to think of Catholocism as idolotry, and therefore not quite Christian".

Sorry, Can't figure out how y'all get a quote in the little blue box. Can someone enlighten me?

Protestants think they have a direct link with God. Catholics pray to God through Mary, Saints, etc. They put a lot more emphasis on the role of the clergy in interpreting the word of God, rather than on the individual's direct interaction with God through prayer.

This reverence for anyone as an intermediary is viewed as idolotry, and of course strict Protestantism in the Deep South views any idolotry as associated with evil.

Mother Nature
12-09-2005, 14:12
Just Jeff, I thank you for your answer. Your statements about the differences between Catholics and Protestants were correct in many ways.

I believe my question about the blue box was misinterpreted however. I was asking how you get my statements on WB into that grayed area as a quote. :p

Mother Nature

gumby
12-09-2005, 14:17
How a person believes or not is not concern of mine. By the way I am a Christian. My confusion here comes from your concern about spending your savings on your sister so yu will have a small Christmas. If you aren't Christian or believe in Christ what do you celebrate that you need the money for? Well Merry Christmas to all anyway.

Just to put things straight, My sister-in-law lived with us 3 times from Dec 01 thru Nov 05 for a total of about 22 months. My wife and I cannot afford to file for bankruptcy because of the hole she put us in. We did the family thing in letting her stay with us, but she took advantage of the situation. She had a job at times, but never money. We couldn't figure out where her money went. Well recently we found out that she has been using it to buy a telephone calling card to call her fugitive husband from a pay phone so he can't be tracked down, she is also a closet alcoholic and drives with her 4 year old son while she is drinking and she is addicted to pain/psych meds and combines old ones that she was taken off of with the new ones.

Things that she has done cannot fully be explained here but just to suffice by helping her out we got behind in payments to the point where we were so far behind that we couldn't pay anything. We have payed for her sons daycare, food, rent when she wasn't living here, car payment and insurance, hospital bills, meds...need I continue. Now maybe you can understand where I'm coming from.

I am not worried that we won't have much of a Christmas, what I am mad about is that we won't get to see the happiness as my newhew and grandsons open their gifts at Christmas.

And as a Wiccan Christmas is called Yule or Candlemas, it actually occurs on the 21st. My wife is a Christian as is the rest of the family. I celebrate it as a day that I can spend with my entire family. Do you celebrate Thanksgiving? Why do you, you are not one of the Pilgrims are you? I recognize all the holidays as special times to spend with loved ones nothing more. They don't participate in my rituals though. At the table when we give blessings I thank my Goddess privately in my thoughts.

I hope this explains things.

gumby:sun

gumby
12-09-2005, 14:19
Just Jeff, I thank you for your answer. Your statements about the differences between Catholics and Protestants were correct in many ways.

I believe my question about the blue box was misinterpreted however. I was asking how you get my statements on WB into that grayed area as a quote. :p

Mother Nature

At the lower right of the message is a button labeled quote. If you click on that and move your cursor passed the end of the message you'll have the previous message in the blue box

gumby

Mags
12-09-2005, 14:28
How come only catholics see the virgin Mary in trees, on bagels and windows and such?:D

In the Northeast, there is the phenomenon of of "Mary on A Half Shell"
Many devout Catholic men of Italian, Portuguese and Latino descent (must be the
Mediterranean roots..don't see Irish Catholics of French-CanadianCatholics do this!!! :) ) seem to have this idea that sticking the blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) in an upturned bathtub next to the petunias makes a suitable and devout
gardendecoration. As I've said to other people, a scholarly paper could be done on the Greco
-Roman religious roots present in Catholicism. ;)

Anyway, If you can't tell by my last name - I grew up as a Catholic of Italian descent. I actually knew people who did indeed have Mary on a Half Shell. There is Mary, showing her
benevolence over the garden. Keeps the geraniumscolorful, the tulips fresh and the tomatoes ripe.


But, a picture really explains it all: http://www.wegrady.com/mary/

I could tell more stories of growing up Catholic, including nine years of Catholic school ..but some other time. (As the Whiteblazers go "Thanks God!" (Goddess, Allah, Budda, Flying Spaghetti Monster, etc.)

Mother Nature
12-09-2005, 14:36
Speaking of cheeseburger madonnas, Smokestack and I found this one on the AT in VA and wondered if it would sell on ebay.

Mother Nature

http://http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mothernatureat2004/detail?.dir=788c&.dnm=2639.jpg&.src=ph

Mother Nature
12-09-2005, 14:38
I tried my link and it didn't work. Here is the full address for the picture.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mothernatureat2004/detail?.dir=788c&.dnm=2639.jpg&.src=ph

Mother Nature

Ender
12-09-2005, 15:01
I tried my link and it didn't work. Here is the full address for the picture.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mothernatureat2004/detail?.dir=788c&.dnm=2639.jpg&.src=ph

Mother Nature

It looks more like a yeti to me. Or an upside down peace sign. :)

c.coyle
12-09-2005, 17:15
In the Northeast, there is the phenomenon of of "Mary on A Half Shell" ... Many devout Catholic men of Italian, Portuguese and Latino descent (must be the Mediterranean roots) ... seem to have this idea that sticking the blessed Virgin Mary (BVM) in an upturned bathtub next to the petunias makes a suitable and devout garden decoration. ...

They are commonly known as shrines. People pray to them. In my experience, women more often than men. Eastern European Catholics also favor them.

Catholics use statues to recall the person or thing depicted. It can help to recall the example of the saints, who lived exemplary lives, by looking at images of them. In the early Church, statues were often used to teach the illiterate.

I used to send my kids across the street to the Church of the Brethern for Vacation Bible School (I'm a lazy Catholic). Many Protestants use pictures of Jesus and other Bible personalities in Sunday school for teaching children.

Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, in the same way as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

This is not idolatry. Catholics believe that God forbids the worship of images, but he doesn’t forbid the making of images. Otherwise, religious movies, photographs, paintings, etc. would be forbidden.

I have some extremely serious problems with the institutional part of the Catholic church, but the theology and doctrine are pretty coherent. I myself have never seen the need to pray to the BVM or a saint to intercede on my behalf with God. I believe I can reach him directly. But, no one buys their religion 100%

And, most Catholics don't take themselves too seriously. Mary On A Half Shell, Father Guido Sarducci, Sister Mary Elephant, Pope-on-a-Rope, and all those great Catholic school stories we have are proof of that.

This is an interesting thread. I'm off to the Knights of Columbus to drink a few Yuenglings.

c.coyle, Deformed Catholic

Just Jeff
12-09-2005, 21:02
This is not idolatry.

Understandable that Catholics don't consider it idolatry...but I'd bet a year's salary that you can't convince the church in the town I grew up in that it isn't! A Baptist church on one corner, a Methodist church on the other, in backwoods Georgia. But then they thought dancing was evil, too.

The Cheat
12-12-2005, 12:14
If I give something the "old college try" will I be offending my friends who joined the workforce or service immediately after high school?

Just Jeff
12-12-2005, 13:32
Yeah, probably. Actually, I think we should refrain from all speech so we're less likely to offend anyone. Hand gestures, too. (Know what the "OK" sign means in Brazil?)

Mags
12-12-2005, 13:37
T
And, most Catholics don't take themselves too seriously. Mary On A Half Shell, Father Guido Sarducci, Sister Mary Elephant, Pope-on-a-Rope, and all those great Catholic school stories we have are proof of that.



Er.. my last name is Magnanti..I went to Catholic school 9 yrs. I grew up in the northeast..and to complete the stereotype most of my family was involved in construction trades. :)

I know all about Catholicism. :) My post had tounge in cheek to it.

This ex-Catholic does not take himself too seriously as well.

c.coyle
12-12-2005, 15:31
... My post had tounge in cheek to it. ... This ex-Catholic does not take himself too seriously as well.

That wasn't directed at you, Mags. I was just clearing up the common misconception that we worship idols and graven images.

Wanna trade nun stories?

Mags
12-12-2005, 15:43
That wasn't directed at you, Mags. I was just clearing up the common misconception that we worship idols and graven images.

Wanna trade nun stories?

I'd say yes..but thought of Sr. Helen still makes me break out in a cold sweat. ;)

Seeker
12-12-2005, 19:11
Understandable that Catholics don't consider it idolatry...but I'd bet a year's salary that you can't convince the church in the town I grew up in that it isn't! A Baptist church on one corner, a Methodist church on the other, in backwoods Georgia. But then they thought dancing was evil, too.
hey! i live there now! no wait.. this is LA... oh well... same conflict... rumor has it we have the highest per capita churches in the country... the parish/county was just ruled 'wet' by the state AG, and people are acting like it's the end of the world...i too, grew up catholic... in the northeast... it was religion, but not faith.. .now that i'm older, i'm relearning it (catholicism) without the 'religion' part... not bad, this time around... and i can give it to my kids too... one more word on idolatry... (remember that most of europe was illiterate during the dark ages when the roman catholic church had it's monopoly... it was literacy and the printing press that enabled the reformation to occur). church buildings, especially the great cathedrals that were built in the 1100-1300 timeframe, were designed to awe their visitors. but a lot of the statues and stained glass were there to tell stories too, to people who couldn't read or understand latin... if you visit them, there are themes that work themselves throughout the design... i remember one that had statues of each of the 12 apostles, 6 on each side of the ceiling... another told the story of creation, the fall of adam, and the promise of a savior in a series of panes in a window... another one had several old testament prophets installed all the way around the roof/ceiling, inside.... point is, they told stories, and weren't there as idols to worship...mary and joseph are venerated (that means honored, to me. they are just special people. emphasis on 'just people'.) god is worshipped...so who wants to start the 'nun horror stories' thread?

whitedove
12-12-2005, 21:10
"

I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't happened to me.

Mother Nature


I have had the same thing happen to me. When I lived in MO, I worked in a restaurant and many people would come in after church on Sundays, very sweet people...until they invited me to church with them and I would say thank you but my family attends the Catholic church....have mercy on my soul...they would look at me like I had sprouted horns with fire shooting out my ears. I was offended at first but then found the humor in it and really started messing with them. My bad! The owner of the place was a very devout Baptist, now that would be a study in "Christian charity" (sarcasm).

A very good friend of mine belongs to a non denominational church but even there Catholics are looked at as "non-Christians" I asked her why she thought Catholics were bad and her reply was that they believe in drinking, such as wine. So I asked what the difference was when water was turned into wine by no other than JC himself. She said it wasn't wine but grape juice, they just called it wine....ummm ok then!

I do not belong nor relate to any organized religion. I believe in God and Jesus but I have very serious reservations with things found in the Bible, and among organized religious groups. (Why is Jesus depicted as having long hair but "hippies" are looked down on as dirty scoundrals?) I have many friends from all walks and belief systems. I'm tolerant as long as nothing is pushed down my throat. Of course I was told I would go to hell if I did not attend church, my reply was that I believe in God, I pray, I can make the top of a mountain my church and feel closer to God than anywhere else, I don't need to dress up and make a show, I try to help others, try not to judge others, I "do no harm" etc but was told that is just being a good person and not a Christian..and the Bible says to gather together.....I'm doomed:eek:

I've taken classes in college about different belief systems and it seems to me that if one were to strip any organized religion down, the very basis is faith in God, using many different names but still a higher power, a higher consciousness, etc. Everything else is just fancy trappings to show that faith and a way to worship. I wonder if God isn't a little bit pissed off at all the atrocities carried out in his name throughout time and even now.

I do come across as jaded and I am but I mean no offense to anyone or any religion.

bfitz
12-12-2005, 22:41
Hail Satan!

I listen to the song "The Oath" by Mercyful Fate every morning as an affirmation! I won't post the lyrics because then somebody will definitely get offended.

Footslogger
12-13-2005, 11:29
I once read/heard a quote that "organized religion is what keeps hope in place".

I am a survivor of a 12 year catholic education and no longer associate myself with any religion. I acknowledge the existence of a god or higher power but he/she/it is more centered in conscience and behavior and not in a manmade diety or set of rules.

If there is an afterlife or some type of reward I'm convinced it won't be earned according to your religious denomination or affiliation. It'll be based on how you lived your life.

'Slogger

bfitz
12-13-2005, 11:49
Slogger...I went to catholic school too. I still have nightmares about being chased around endless dingy school hallways by zombie nuns! I even had a priest/disciplinarian at my school tell me about how he had performed exorcisms and seen other "supernatural phenomena". I got to debate him endlessly during detention in a place we called the box. Good times...
However, there is a lot of beauty, human sentiment, psychology, and artistic expression in all religions, and without christianity, heavy metal music would never have been quite as cool. Neither would wicca!
Wicca, of course, is a rejectionist philosophy rebelling against christianity and it's prejudices. It's basically a combination of modern PC and medieval BS with a little Harry Potter thrown in, a pastiche with no true pagan roots, but it's no sillier than christianity, mabye even a little less so. Nothing beats scientology for a post-modern ridiculous religion. I expect some sort of techy, computer culture type "religion" to emerge soon. Mabye their manifesto will be in L33T-speak.

Edit/add:
How about "Cyber-Druids" or something like that..."Techno-Shamans"...somehow tied into raver-culture like wiccans and hippies?:dance

Footslogger
12-13-2005, 11:54
Well ...I didn't post that to start a debate. It's just my experience and what I believe. These days I go as the spirit moves me. When I was a little kid I had heroes and what I thought at the time were "leaders" in whom I could believe ...some of which were religious people who pretty much all turned out to be hypocrits. I'm not a big fan of the "do like I say and not like I do" approach. Any more I just listen to my conscience and follow my own lead. I lean more toward deciding what you want your reputation to be and then living up to it.

'nuff said ...

'Slogger

bfitz
12-13-2005, 11:57
Sorry, no debate intended, just stupid comments intended to be funny...A true debate about religion usually ends in violence anyway...

bfitz
12-13-2005, 12:11
As far as debate goes...Kant's "first cause" argument was very compelling, but the idea of the omega value in cosmology as it ties in with the idea of quantum fluctuations implying that the whole universe is a quantum fluctuation gets me thinking too, but I can't help but intuitively reject it. Imagine a meta-universe where universes are just the quantum foam of that milieu, like some virtual particles occasionally pop into non virtual existence in our universe. Wow, there is a sort of yes or no, on or off, binary logic to the big bang concept...hmmm...the cyber-druids would like that...

c.coyle
12-13-2005, 12:25
As far as debate goes...Kant's "first cause" argument was very compelling, but the idea of the omega value in cosmology as it ties in with the idea of quantum fluctuations implying that the whole universe is a quantum fluctuation gets me thinking too, but I can't help but intuitively reject it. Imagine a meta-universe where universes are just the quantum foam of that milieu, like some virtual particles occasionally pop into non virtual existence in our universe. Wow, there is a sort of yes or no, on or off, binary logic to the big bang concept...hmmm...the cyber-druids would like that...

This belongs in the Hammock Camping section.

sliderule
12-13-2005, 12:39
Catholics pray to God through Mary, Saints, etc. They put a lot more emphasis on the role of the clergy in interpreting the word of God.

I pray that, in the future, God will speak more clearly so that it will not take thousands of clergy hundreds of years to figure out what it was that He thought He was trying to say.

bfitz
12-13-2005, 12:42
This belongs in the Hammock Camping section.
Good point.

bfitz
12-13-2005, 12:52
I pray that, in the future, God will speak more clearly so that it will not take thousands of clergy hundreds of years to figure out what it was that He thought He was trying to say.
I think he does it on purpose.

Just Jeff
12-13-2005, 14:38
Kinda like spitting in an anthill to see what happens.

sliderule
12-13-2005, 21:54
Protestants think they have a direct link with God. Catholics pray to God through Mary, Saints, etc.

That might explain why my prayers are not being answered. All these years I was trying to use the "direct" option when maybe I should have been going through a middleman.

I am wondering if some Saints have better track records than others. Maybe there are some charts or other performance data that I can access. Sort of like a "relative strength" rating for a stock.

bfitz
12-13-2005, 22:05
That might explain why my prayers are not being answered. All these years I was trying to use the "direct" option when maybe I should have been going through a middleman.

I am wondering if some Saints have better track records than others. Maybe there are some charts or other performance data that I can access. Sort of like a "relative strength" rating for a stock.
No, it doesn't work that way. Certain saints have certain jurisdictions. Like St. Jude for lost causes and to find lost things, st. Christopher to protect from car crashes and safe travel etc. etc.

sliderule
12-13-2005, 22:15
No, it doesn't work that way. Certain saints have certain jurisdictions. Like St. Jude for lost causes and to find lost things, st. Christopher to protect from car crashes and safe travel etc. etc.

I have been told that I am a lost cause, so it sounds like St. Jude is my man. I'll try to connect through him from now on.

Just Jeff
12-13-2005, 22:47
Seriously, there needs to be an operator for things like this...a spiritual 411. You can just pray to "0" and she'll connect you to the appropriate authority. Maybe I'll set up a website or something.

BW2006
12-13-2005, 23:27
I think that we all need to work together as a group as we begin our journey on the trail. We are all not going to see eye to eye sometimes but we also should have to not worry about being politically correct all the time and just learn to read past the words to the true meaning of what people say. All of us think differently on some subjects and it's not us to decide what is right for another person. WALK YOUR OWN WALK! It's so important that we all get along and learn to "go with the flow", If we argue words on line just think what will happen on the trail! We all need to love and support each other! Barbie W

Just Jeff
12-13-2005, 23:41
Yeah...on the trail I'll be to tired to argue like this, so I'll just pray to "0" for the good sleep and offer you the rest of my noodles. :)

You hiking this year, Barbie W?

bfitz
12-14-2005, 00:14
I think that we all need to work together as a group as we begin our journey on the trail. We are all not going to see eye to eye sometimes but we also should have to not worry about being politically correct all the time and just learn to read past the words to the true meaning of what people say. All of us think differently on some subjects and it's not us to decide what is right for another person. WALK YOUR OWN WALK! It's so important that we all get along and learn to "go with the flow", If we argue words on line just think what will happen on the trail! We all need to love and support each other! Barbie W
Yeah definitely walk your own walk, but nothing beats a good argument! I don't mean petty bickering, but a thorough examination of ideas and ideals combined with just the right amount of alcohol, vehemence, humor, respect and profanity makes for a great ole time!

smokymtnsteve
12-14-2005, 00:21
PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"The missionaries go forth to Christianize the savages--as if the savages weren't dangerous enough already"

"Christian theology: nothing so grotesque could possibly be true"

"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward."

"The best argument for Christianity is the Gregorian chant. Listening to that music, one can believe anything--while the music lasts"

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

bfitz
12-14-2005, 02:21
http://www.plug-pray.org/
I like the switch kit.

Sly
12-14-2005, 02:55
I think you're referring to "Confess and Continue," which is why France and Italy have always found Catholicism so rewarding.

Kind of like some of the born-again American Christians I know except they don't confess to other born-agains!

Heater
12-14-2005, 06:02
I tried my link and it didn't work. Here is the full address for the picture.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/mothernatureat2004/detail?.dir=788c&.dnm=2639.jpg&.src=ph

Mother Nature

It kinda looks like the guy on the Camel cigarette pack. :D

gumby
12-14-2005, 09:03
http://www.plug-pray.org/
I like the switch kit.

Now that's funny:clap

gumby

Seeker
12-14-2005, 18:43
No, it doesn't work that way. Certain saints have certain jurisdictions. Like St. Jude for lost causes and to find lost things, st. Christopher to protect from car crashes and safe travel etc. etc.

no, St Anthony is for lost things... 'dear saint anthony, come around... something's lost and can't be found'... (grade school... sister prudencia, i think...)

bfitz
12-14-2005, 19:42
no, St Anthony is for lost things... 'dear saint anthony, come around... something's lost and can't be found'... (grade school... sister prudencia, i think...)
Yup, you're right, I remember the prayer. I guess st. jude is lost causes only.

sliderule
12-14-2005, 21:17
Perhaps there will come a time when lost hikers pray to Saint Rock.

Mags
12-15-2005, 12:34
Alas, the Catholic church took away St. Christopher's title as "Patron Saint of Travelers".

The best evidence shows that St. Chris was (as one web site put it well):

"While there may have been a 3rd century Greek martyr named Christopher, the story told of him is now generally acknowledged to be a 12th century addendum to the Christian canon."

Does not mean you still can't buy a boatload of St. Christoper medals!

Wow..all this talk of Catholicism. Think I might buy some navy blue pants and light blue shirts and be nostalgic...

Footslogger
12-15-2005, 12:40
Wow..all this talk of Catholicism. Think I might buy some navy blue pants and light blue shirts and be nostalgic...
=====================================
I'll see if my mom still has mine in the steamer trunk and send them to you ...

'Slogger

Nean
12-15-2005, 16:00
My grandmother gave all her sons a saint name, which is how I became Nean- my sister learning/trying to say Anthony

Ender
12-15-2005, 16:23
My grandmother gave all her sons a saint name, which is how I became Nean- my sister learning/trying to say Anthony

One of my sister's is named is Alison, who when I was 3 or 4 called Ass-on... I still don't think she's forgiven me for that.