View Full Version : Need a winter sleeping bag or convert summer bag
earlyriser26
11-17-2015, 12:00
I have a sleeping bag that is good down to about 45 degrees. I took it on a hike last winter and at 10 degrees it was not a pleasant experience. Should I just pony up the big bucks and buy a winter bag or would another option work? Quilt? Blanket? Overbag? brands?
swisscross
11-17-2015, 12:32
Once it chills off a bit more here I too will be experimenting with pushing the limit of my bag.
My bag is a WM Megalite (30 degree) trying to extend my bag to around 15-20 degrees.
The ideas that I have found are puffy pants, puffy jacket, down socks, really warm hat, balaclava, gloves, etc.
OR
Take another bag to supplement your existing bag.
Another thing to consider is your pad. Either purchase a winter pad or use two pads.
I am going to test my original neoair with a gossamer gear 1/8" pad and see how that works.
I have also read that boiling water and putting in a Nalgene in your bag with you will help (sleeping with it).
Eating a high caloric meal just before bedtime should also help. Eating a snickers in the middle of the night when you start feeling chilled seems to help some.
I am trying not to buy puffy pants and once the weather here get cold enough for true testing I will be experimenting with my fleece pullover, fleece pants, down socks, wool buff and my down beanie.
I have a nano puff to help if needed.
Sorry if I thread jacked but I too am looking for advice. This is what I have found and hope it helps.
nsherry61
11-17-2015, 13:04
FWIW: Doubling up bags provides diminishing returns because the outer bag tends to compress the insulation of the inner bag and quickly gets very tight on space. Puffy clothing can help, weighs more and if there is not space, the puffy clothing cannot puff up as much as would be most helpful. The lightest solution is a winter bag. The most flexible solution is a combination of added clothing inside and an overquilt on the outside of your 3-season bag. My favorite winter bag setup is my regular 3-season bag with my relatively inexpensive, synthetic, thermorest tech blanket thrown over the top as a top quilt. With a 30* bag, my tech blanket, and a puffy jacket and a hot water bottle, I am good to -10*F.
Good luck.
Define winter. Minimum temperature?
First: R-5 minimum between you and the ground. I'm partial to the Xtherm Large for it's sleeping comfort. 2 months straight on the floor of my apartment. Perfect night's sleep. 1 medium weight hat & 1 warm hat. Wear either or both as conditions dictate. Other layers as needed. Hot water in a bottle or two as needed.
Next: A 20-30 degree quilt, Enlightened Equipment or equal, large enough to cover your 40 degree bag.
Or: Western Mountaineering bag suitable for the minimum temperature indicated above + what I said in First: above. Most of WM's bags at 20 degrees and below have hoods, full collars, draft tubes, snag free zippers, foot boxes and overall quality that justify their cost. WM's bags come in a variety of internal dimensions and temperature ratings that should meet your needs.
Have fun playing the snow.
Wayne
The disadvantage of using your bag plus quilt over getting a warmer bag is some added weight (in fabric).
The advantage, (apart from the cost) can be that if you get a synthetic quilt your perspiration will pass through the down bag and migrate into the synthetic quilt, keeping your SB warm and dry.
Because I don't go below 20f, my 32f bag with puffy clothing does the job and I really like having insulation on me when I need to get up.(I toss a bit so I also move less air wearing clothing)
It is verry important that your clothing is dry and clean(enogh...)
Bigger advantage of the "over bag" scenario from the Dark Ages:
Your're gonna need a summer temp. bag/quilt anyway, so using both for awhile is both versatile & economical. In theory (See chart at Enlightened Equipment), A 40 over a 30 equals a 0 single bag/quilt.
http://cdn1.bigcommerce.com/n-ou1isn/japp2/product_images/uploaded_images/layered-temp-ratings-layered-temperature-ratings.jpg?t=1443557092
Be warm. Be happy.
Wayne
squeezebox
11-17-2015, 18:46
I have a sleeping bag that is good down to about 45 degrees. I took it on a hike last winter and at 10 degrees it was not a pleasant experience. Should I just pony up the big bucks and buy a winter bag or would another option work? Quilt? Blanket? Overbag? brands?
Kinda surprised you are still alive.
That kind of thing is for backyard experiments, nothing wrong with those. As well as pad back yard experiments. Stoves, stoveless etc.
MuddyWaters
11-17-2015, 22:29
You can stack quilts pretty well IMO.
I used a 40 and 30 together at 17F. I was plenty comfy, didnt wear puffy or long john bottoms on plain xlite. The pad was cool, definitely into marginal range.
But..drafts start to be annoying around neck and shoulders especially.
My down hood also got wet around face from condensation that time. If i had needed it next night i would have had problem. Next night was only about 30 so i used fleece hat and hoody.
earlyriser26
11-18-2015, 14:28
I went with the quilt option. And no, it was not a life or death situation. I had 3 layers of clothes on, down booties, gloves, etc. I just wished that I was dead.
Just Bill
11-18-2015, 15:25
First and foremost- fix your pad. If that's a bust... so is your whole system.
When you're talking 5* push, simply side sleeping and switching sides every hour or two works... Your insulation will thin a hair on top, but with both sides and bottom warm you can stay asleep longer when only a shoulder and hip chill.
Second- hats are the most effective insulation per ounce, and you probably have them. Cold head? Wrapping your spare shirt around your head will be warmer than piling on a third layer of shirts.
A good article from some knowledgeable folks-http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/blog/
With a critical disclaimer- "Also keep in mind that a tight-fitting quilt may not loft as fully as it should to hit its temperature rating, so the quilt used on top may need to be somewhat larger to allow a good fit for the quilt below it."
This article has inspired me to try this a bit more this winter. As a handy side effect of my quilt biz attempts... I have three sizes of quilts handy in 25* and 45* ratings. So I can layer them size appropriately to ensure no compressed insulation which is not a luxury I've had before. Per the EE chart I should be able to take my small 25* and layer over my large sized 45* and see close to zero.
The math works out too, as three layers of 3oz PL Gold or 9oz total (what I'd end up with in that combo) would put me at 8.28 CLO or roughly zero degrees if I were to build that quilt from scratch.
Someone here boiled the formula down as first quilt rating plus (70*-second quilt's rating) to get expected temp. (Sorry for forgetting who to give credit for it).
It's a compelling question as many folks find themselves with a summer and three season bag, but limited needs (and funds) to buy a deep winter bag for the occasional trip.
To Swisscross's post-
The nalgene trick works well in any bag- warm bottle placed in the crotch (along main arteries feeding blood to the legs) is the best... As you may be melting snow for water this is a general no brainer trick IMO. Also you dry out fast in winter so a handy hot beverage makes good sense regardless.
Along those lines- a little known fact is that you can put boiling water in Platypus brand bladders. While I wouldn't boil it when melting snow, filling your bladder with warm water (which you have to store in your bag anyway to prevent freezing) means a 3L hot water pack instead of a 1L nalgene.
Malto and others play with VBL's, I still haven't- but that is an interesting topic for pushing gear.
Many find that laying that down vest or puffy over your bag or feet to be superior to wearing it.
The bottom line is to find the point of the failure, and take a lesson from the hammock folks...
They tend to bring some scraps of reflectix, spare pad, or sit pad to address difficult spots in an otherwise good system.
So even on the ground...
A side sleeper may find that upper shoulder or hip to get chilly- stuff a scrap of reflectix in your shirt or pant to address that spot.
A back sleeper may find the belly (especially with hands on it), the elbows, or the toes pointing into the bag to chill- slip a scrap of 1/8 GG foam there.
Often somewhere in your insulation, especially with down, there is a "pointy bit" of body that pokes a hole in the loft and makes a cold spot that wakes us up though we are otherwise warm. In the case of gravity and say a pointy toe- That little scrap of supplemental insulation spreads that point load out and gives you a bit extra where needed.
In the case of compression (like your backside in a hammock) the foam or reflectix doesn't need loft so it patches the hole without you having to change an otherwise comfy position. Sleeping in an uncomfortable position keeps you up or wakes you up too.
The other thing the hammock folks do is bring a few "plugs" A draft can quickly drain your heated air, having a spare scrap of fleece, bandana, shamwow or whatever to plug that leaky UQ or drafty bit in your top quilt by your shoulders can do wonders.
Finally- learn to ball up if needed when you push gear. Reducing the amount of surface area exposed to the cold makes a huge difference... it is part of the basis used to determine the extreme rating in EN rated sleeping gear.
MuddyWaters
11-18-2015, 15:34
Yep, side is way warmer than on back for me. Pulling cold feet in too helps a lot. Just dont expect to stretch them out again because footbox willl be cold
peterboysen
11-18-2015, 15:50
*Disclosure: I work for Enlightened Equipment*
Personally I prefer layering to a dedicated cold-weather bag. I've used 20° and 40°F quilts combined down to -15 or -20°, though that was really pushing the limits of the system. As mentioned elsewhere, if you only do a few winter trips versus a lot of summer and shoulder season trips, it's a lot more cost-effective to layer gear vs. buying dedicated sub-zero equipment. Can't skimp on pad insulation (though supplementing a normal air pad with some thick, cheap CCF can add a surprising amount of insulation).
"Many find that laying that down vest or puffy over your bag or feet to be superior to wearing it."
That works if you don't toss and turn. If you do those free layers will end up on the side or under you offering little or almost no extra insulation.
Just Bill
11-18-2015, 17:03
"Many find that laying that down vest or puffy over your bag or feet to be superior to wearing it."
That works if you don't toss and turn. If you do those free layers will end up on the side or under you offering little or almost no extra insulation.
Agree. If you have the volume inside your bag, use the jacket or vest there... but most folks don't have the spare room
One further tip- if you are using a jacket this way- pull the sleeves in (or lay the jacket liner side up) so you get the little boost of the sleeves too.
Just Bill
11-18-2015, 17:32
*Disclosure: I work for Enlightened Equipment*
Personally I prefer layering to a dedicated cold-weather bag. I've used 20° and 40°F quilts combined down to -15 or -20°, though that was really pushing the limits of the system. As mentioned elsewhere, if you only do a few winter trips versus a lot of summer and shoulder season trips, it's a lot more cost-effective to layer gear vs. buying dedicated sub-zero equipment. Can't skimp on pad insulation (though supplementing a normal air pad with some thick, cheap CCF can add a surprising amount of insulation).
You guys are making a compelling argument, and having enough balls to post that chart is helping it quite a bit.
It'll be on my list this winter to try and interesting to see how it plays out.
When talking about the 40-50* summer quilt... it makes good sense at little weight impact to oversize that piece when the time comes to purchase or upgrade. Having extra volume to heat at that temp rating isn't anywhere near as big a deal as doing the same with a 20-30* piece.
An oversize summer quilt, properly sized shoulder season, and a free winter quilt (or double pad strap cost for EE if you want it) is a solid system.
I sense a future buy two get one (pad strap) free promotion, lol.
One thing/thought- It'd be nice to see a sizing guideline for folks if you guys do promote this... Although in quilts the only real pinch point is the footbox I suppose. But it'd be handy to know that a regular paired with a wide or xwide respectively to avoid compression.
That said- Here's a freebie for you and Tim- Make a "foot box expander". You guys already have the separating zipper in most of your quilts. A matching draft collar style strip of insulation with matching zips for the footbox would round out a complete layered pad kit pretty nicely. As an added bonus... you could stick with the proper size year round.
I'm enjoying this thread--maybe you guys can help me out. I'm going out this weekend to SNP and expect lows in the mid-20s. I have a 20 degree synth BA mummy with a little wiggle room. I have a Costco down throw. I have a 40 degree EE synth quilt. I have a BA air core pad (r 4.2 I think
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Ugh... Misfire.... I also have a torso length ridge rest. I was thinking of taking the BA bag, Costco quilt (for inside bag, not over) and the air core. I'm weight conscious... Do you recommend a different configuration?
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Ugh... Misfire.... I also have a torso length ridge rest. I was thinking of taking the BA bag, Costco quilt (for inside bag, not over) and the air core. I'm weight conscious... Do you recommend a different configuration?
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Get a full length pad. Winter is not the time to be weight-averse.
Get a full length pad. Winter is not the time to be weight-averse.
The aircore is full length insulated.... I won't freeze to death in the BA 20 and aircore but I want to sleep so I was thinking of adding torso pad or Costco quilt or EE quilt.... I put too much energy into these decisions!!!
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Torso pad added to the full length pad and wearing a puffy to bed should be good, or good enough to sleep well.
I think I'll take the torso pad --probably use it inside my bag-- AND the Costco quilt. There's 2 more pounds! oh well!! better warm than cold. thanks for your input... I'd sorta forgot about the ccf pad until I read this thread.
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peterboysen
11-19-2015, 11:09
I sense a future buy two get one (pad strap) free promotion, lol.
Ha, yeah, I think we can make that happen. I should see if our site will let me set that up as a discount rule.
One thing/thought- It'd be nice to see a sizing guideline for folks if you guys do promote this... Although in quilts the only real pinch point is the footbox I suppose. But it'd be handy to know that a regular paired with a wide or xwide respectively to avoid compression.
This point is actually a little more flexible than most people realize. When I layer, for example, both of my quilts are Reg width. I'm about 180lbs (and 6'2"), side sleeper, and not really at the limit of that width, so using a Reg width for both doesn't really cause any compression since the inner quilt just fluffs up to fill whatever space it can. However, if I were a bit larger, say 220lbs, I'd be pushing the width of a Regular, so the outer quilt would have to be at least a wide to avoid compressing the inner quilt. It's kind of a cludgy concept to explain though, which is why I avoided writing it out on the website. Sizing is somewhat subjective even for a single quilt, and a lot of folks who are 180lbs think the Reg is too slim, and others think it's huge, so I try to avoid promising anything too specific where width is concerned.
Just Bill
11-19-2015, 12:08
Here ya go- 32685
Sleep position over weight in my experience.
Stolen roughly from Ray Jardine, so feel free to steal it too, lol.
Roughly my size (5'10" 220)- on a 26" wide pad.
On my back- I'm 10" thick at my chest... if i cranked the pad straps tight and all was perfect- 36"
On my side- I'm 18" across, but my shoulder is about 5" wide.
Side 1- an ellipse describes a bit bigger than reality
Side 2- Straight lines describe a bit unrealistic shape too.
Actual measurement using a tailor's tape loose draped method leaves you in between the two at around 47"
A little fluff is suggested, but I always found this illustration a better way to help folks size a quilt.
On the footbox thingy... My brain is fixed on synthetic for both layers. But your point about the down finding it's own way and still doing it's job makes perfect sense. So does using the synthetic outside your down to avoid body vapor build up in your down piece. Again- nice work.
My thoughts on layering quilts or bag & quilt.
I would place the lower temp rating quilt next to me and close the footbox on the inner quilt. The higher rated quilt would be opened flat and draped over the first quilt.
For a bag-quilt combination, which is what I would use as I have two good lower temperature bags (0 & 20 degrees), if I buy a summer quilt I would open it flat and drape it over the bag. The quilt inside the bag is a No Go!
Does anyone with more experience than I have any problem with these schemes?
Wayne
Get a full length pad. Winter is not the time to be weight-averse.
I would certainly differ from this attitude - winter is the time when packs are heaviest, so to me the motivation for the most efficient system is highest - also the realized weight savings can far exceed that of a summer set up (easier to save 5lbs in the winter than summer)
some of my winter gear strategy:
down bag tested by you at temp as low as expected to occur
torso length pad with backpack under the feet
down parka with zip off sleeves that go over the feet at night
synthetic insulated pants (more likely to get wet)
no fleece ( not wight efficient)
MuddyWaters
11-19-2015, 15:07
My thoughts on layering quilts or bag & quilt.
I would place the lower temp rating quilt next to me and close the footbox on the inner quilt. The higher rated quilt would be opened flat and draped over the first quilt.
For a bag-quilt combination, which is what I would use as I have two good lower temperature bags (0 & 20 degrees), if I buy a summer quilt I would open it flat and drape it over the bag. The quilt inside the bag is a No Go!
Does anyone with more experience than I have any problem with these schemes?
Wayne
I stick footbox in footbox because feet get cold first on me.Roomiest one as the outer.
Far enough. A good option. I'll remember that. Thank you.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
Follow up: I used a 20 degree synth bag with an insulated inflatable under it and a ccf torso pad and Costco down quilt INSIDE the bag and stayed toasty on a 24 degree night sleeping on an exposed ground level stone porch of a locked PACT cabin. I slept with all clothes including extra heavy socks over hiking socks and Ul down jacket. the system seemed to work well as there is room in bag for down to loft. That quilt was very nice to have for the small amount of time I spent around camp eating, etc.
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I have seen those Costco quilt discussed on another forum.
They look to me ideal for doing exactly what you did , sort of a down liner for a synthetic bag.
I have seen those Costco quilt discussed on another forum.
They look to me ideal for doing exactly what you did , sort of a down liner for a synthetic bag.
worked like a charm as liner and as a wrap around lower body in camp -- my tights were great on the move but no wind blockage while stopped. I'm thinking of getting another Costco quilt and having neighborhood seamstress sew some shock chord into it and then use as warm weather quilt for petite fiancée hiking partner.
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Follow up: I used a 20 degree synth bag with an insulated inflatable under it and a ccf torso pad and Costco down quilt INSIDE the bag and stayed toasty on a 24 degree night sleeping on an exposed ground level stone porch of a locked PACT cabin. I slept with all clothes including extra heavy socks over hiking socks and Ul down jacket. the system seemed to work well as there is room in bag for down to loft. That quilt was very nice to have for the small amount of time I spent around camp eating, etc.
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An example of warm/cold sleepers, bag ratings and environment:
Saturday before Thanksgiving.
Clear sky. Wind calm.
Wind proof single wall 4 season solo tent on damp sandy soil. Approximately 24 hours after hard rain.
Xtherm large mattress.
WM Alpinlite 20 F down bag.
Me, old and skinny, wearing LL Bean midweight merino wool bottoms and zip-T top, REI light wool socks and a very light fleece bike helmet liner. No gloves. Not sure I needed any of the clothes. Bag hood and collar loose.
Starting temp: 34 F @ 9:30 pm.
Ending temp: 26 F @ 6:30 am.
Never cold. Never woke up until the sun woke me up.
Total gear weight (excluding clothes worn): 7 pounds 5 ounces. Estimated weight of clothes: 1 - 1 1/4 pounds.
I would love to know the weight of everything in the post I quoted.
Bottom line: The Alpinlite and Xtherm are conservatively rated.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
I would love to know the weight of everything in the post I quoted.
If I had an Alpinelite I probably would not have carried the extra quilt and pad. Maybe next year!
Big Agnes Savery 20 Long (synth top-bag with pad sleeve): 51.8 oz
Big Agnes AirCore insulated long mummy pad: 23.8 oz
Ridgerest torso: 8.6 oz
Costco down quilt: 16 oz
Total: 91.6 oz (6.26 lbs).
I think the BA Savery is "comfortable" at 30 degrees. I would have been chilly without the extras at 24 degrees. Slept in ALL clothes (base t shirt, mid layer, down jacket, rain jacket, insulated running tights, running shorts, mittens, hat, 2 pairs hiking socks with heavy smartwool over them. I put my tyvek perpendicular over my lower body to stop wind too. Don't think it did much.
Again, I put the CCF pad INSIDE my bag which I think was a very good idea (no sliding off it, etc), as well as the quilt inside. Not sure why this approach seems to get strong objections. I feel like it worked well. Of course, there was room in my bag for the quilt to loft, although not much room needed.
Am I missing something? Would this system backfire in colder temps somehow?
Complete gear list for this hike here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jT1j8YTP80ZznEfLVHID2bEEwMVAndlZVDzObQKjYMo/edit?usp=sharing
You may be in for a rude surprise when you encounter cold weather. 24 F degrees isn't cold. It was 26 F in East Texas weekend before last. Elevation maybe 900 feet.
For your next experiment, start with the quilt on top of your bag. Give it room to loft and keep you warm. I tried a down liner inside a small mummy bag. It didn't work well because I smashed the down to nothing. If it doesn't work for you, you can always put the quilt inside. You must be a text book example of a cold sleeper.
The dirt ground is warmer than a rock porch. A good wind proof tent is worth it's weight in gold. However, there was no wind in my experiment.
The weight of everything you were wearing is greater than the weight of my bag. I'm only 5'-8". The Alpinlite is a Long, sized for folks up to 6'-6". I have read numerous posts here and elsewhere from folks who bought a long bag when they needed a regular and were looking to butcher the long bag to reduce the size. I say, "Bah! Humbug!" The long works for me. I'm also a sucker for a deal.
For an old, clueless Geezer, I think I put together a decent sleeping arrangement. I didn't pay full retail either. I also have the Antelope Dry Loft for back up if/when I can get out in the mountains at altitude and cold weather.
Good luck with your hike!
Wayne
ps: I just looked up your bag. Yikes! That thing is bigger than the Alpinlite which I think is really roomy. Can you fit the air pad & Ridgerest in the pad sleeve of the bag?
Can you fit the air pad & Ridgerest in the pad sleeve of the bag?
Yeah, I know 24 degrees isn't "cold" but it is at the limits of my gear set, so in that regard it was cold. I don't think I can fit the RR inside the pad sleeve of the BA but I will give it a try. On this trip, I chose the porch because I thought I could stay warm and also have the enjoyment of the starry sky above.
I will for sure conduct some back yard COLD experiments this winter. Would like to see how low I can go with what I currently own. Will try the quilt over the bag the problem with that is securing the quilt. Maybe safety pins to the bottom of the bag, but then I'm doing fine motor stuff with bare hands in the cold. I learned on last hike that I don't want to have to do anything with my bare hands that I don't absolutely have to if it is sub freezing.
I'm 6'4 220 so I only consider "long" bags/quilts.
I've never done any actual winter camping, only early/late season stuff down into the 20s.
I'm lusting for an Alpinelite -- I think it needs to be on my thru-hike gear list (2023 when I'm 50).
you should be able to withstand a several minutes with barehands in the 20's if you are remaining active. You can always try some cheap polar fleece gloves, or blove liners with the finger tips cut off.
It sounds like you want a bivy sack to keep everything together, sleeping pads, bag and quilt.
you should be able to withstand a several minutes with barehands in the 20's if you are remaining active. You can always try some cheap polar fleece gloves, or blove liners with the finger tips cut off.
It sounds like you want a bivy sack to keep everything together, sleeping pads, bag and quilt.
Bivy sack is an interesting idea... I use convertible mittens -- recent hike reminded me that cold makes little things difficult. That's all.
Another variable in the keeping warm equation: Sufficient time in cold weather for your internal thermostat to switch to cold mode. This a real phenomenon that I have experienced while working overseas. I lived in New Orleans. Always warm to brutally hot. I commuted through northern Europe, Brussels or Zurich and Budapest. Worked in west Africa (5 degrees south) always warm or Kazakhstan, +115 to -34 depending on the season. Transiting Europe between N.O. and Africa I was always cold no matter what season. Kazakhstan played havoc with my internal thermostat. Hot-Cold-Hot or Cold-Hot-Cold. After a few days in the cold, I could be comfortable with fewer clothes.
Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.
Good luck.
Wayne
Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.
Do you recommend the Alpinelite (20 deg) or warmer? I don't see myself doing a lot of deep winter stuff, just late/early 3 season stuff. I have an EE 40 degree quilt for warmer months. What pad do you like to go with the WM bag?
swisscross
12-02-2015, 15:53
Another variable in the keeping warm equation: Sufficient time in cold weather for your internal thermostat to switch to cold mode. This a real phenomenon that I have experienced while working overseas. I lived in New Orleans. Always warm to brutally hot. I commuted through northern Europe, Brussels or Zurich and Budapest. Worked in west Africa (5 degrees south) always warm or Kazakhstan, +115 to -34 depending on the season. Transiting Europe between N.O. and Africa I was always cold no matter what season. Kazakhstan played havoc with my internal thermostat. Hot-Cold-Hot or Cold-Hot-Cold. After a few days in the cold, I could be comfortable with fewer clothes.
Start saving for a Western Mountaineering. An investment that will pay dividends for decades. I own two. The cost only hurt for a little while. The benefits last a long long time.
Good luck.
Wayne
Have not thought much about this in a while but when I first moved to Vermont from Alabama I froze my tail off.
After the first winter I went outside at 32 degrees with shorts on and was quite warm.
Do you recommend the Alpinelite (20 deg) or warmer? I don't see myself doing a lot of deep winter stuff, just late/early 3 season stuff. I have an EE 40 degree quilt for warmer months. What pad do you like to go with the WM bag?
I own a WM Antelope Dry Loft and the Alpinlite. I bought the Antelope first. I liked it so much that when I went shopping for a new bag (I gave my REI bag from the 1970s to my granddaughter) I went to the local dealer in Houston and tried on the Ultralite (too narrow-just like the REI bag) and the Alpinlite. I bought an Alpinlite Long which is wider than the Antelope, but I got used to the extra width in a hurry. The extra length is a none issue for me at 5'-8". I could not be more pleased. One of these nights I'll get to try it out below 20 degrees. I'll report back then. In Europe the Alpinlite & Ultralite earned an EN rating of 16 degrees. I'm impressed that WM didn't immediately change the bags to 15 degree bags. That speaks volumes to me about the integrity of company. Another small detail about the WM bags: The loft is measured and the lowest point-about where your shins are. The loft increases both ways towards your chest and feet. I dare anyone to snag their zippers. It doesn't happen.
I also pondered the 25 degree WM Sycamore. It was a tough choice.
I'm pondering a 40 degree quilt as well. Used alone in warm weather or over one of my sleeping bags in really cold weather.
I've said on several occasions here at WB that I am totally sold on the Xtherm Large. I sleep as well on it as I do on my real bed. I put it to a 2 month continuous test on the floor of my apartment and one night in the backyard below freezing. It is a winner!
Wayne
Patrickjd9
12-02-2015, 20:58
Having become a cold sleeper in my old age, a small tent is better than a big one.
I was in a large car camping tent on a night of 25 degrees or so this fall. I was noticeably colder than I would have been in my one-person backpacking tent, feeling a little cold in my 15 degree down bag. The bag is kind of big since I've lost weight, so I pulled my fleece jacket inside it just to take up space. After that, I slept until morning, so it must have worked.
Brup Bup
01-13-2016, 02:56
I love quilts. In the summer. Winter is all about a well rated bag and high r-value pad. Hypothermia doesn't sound fun...
colorado_rob
01-13-2016, 11:07
Just my 2 cents, after spending maybe a couple hundred nights out in deep winter conditions. Most of mine were here in Colorado, a tad different from the damp east, so take that into account...
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Anyway, there seems to be a prevalent mind set on WB that if the actual low air temperature outside you tent drops to below your sleeping bag rating, that is a bad or "dangerous" thing. I disagree. Your tent alone adds 5-10 degrees of warmth over the outside temperature, assuming you have a decent 4-season tent. It also depends on if you are sharing your tent. Solo is colder, obviously, in a tent that is made for two.
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So my personal method, and it has worked for decades, is to shoot for a bag rating about 15 degrees above the coldest expected temperatures and use other methods for providing warmth, like the already mentioned hot water bottles or wearing warm clothing.
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This all assumes you have a sleeping pad system that provides about R5 or higher. I use a two-piece system, a 3/8" closed cell foam pad with my neoair xlite provides right about R5. I like the redundancy of this system; if the inflatable pad fails, I'm still partially isolated from the frozen ground; might be an uncomfortable night, but it won't be dangerous.
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This coming weekend is a good example; my wife and I are leading a CO mountain club trip to climb a 14er (Mt. Elbert), including a high camp at treeline before summit day. The low temps are expected to be about 0F, and could go as low as -10. I have a -25F bag and a 15F bag, both excellent quality and true to their ratings. I'll be taking the 15F bag (a pound lighter) and expect to be plenty comfortable in our 4-season tent, camping in the trees, two of us in a 2-man tent, carrying plenty of down clothing (for around camp at night), and with two hot water bottles in my bag, which will be the next day's drinking water for the summit climb.
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One little subtle point about hot water bottles: they work better if you slide them into an extra sock. The small amount of insulation slows the heat release, making them last most of the night. Without the sock, they are piping hot to begin with, but a few hours later go cold and useless. I like to spread that heat over the whole night.
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Just my method, YMMV. FWIW, I like the idea of the warm season bag with a quilt to supplement it. I might experiment with this as I have a 45 degree summer bag and a UL quilt, heck, I might try it this weekend.