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squeezebox
11-18-2015, 12:20
An exercise for the engineers out there. (Thanks guys esp. JK)
So what's the difference between riding a bicycle up a 10% gradient vs hiking up a 10% gradient? I know hikers go up much steeper stuff. I want to reduce variables. An average skin out hiking wt. with food & water? pack wt 20 lb? wearables 5lb? food and water for 2 days 10 lb? Round up to 40 lb for easy math.
Bicycle; off bicycle, shoe to helmet wt? 7 lb or so, round up to 10 for math. Bicycle 20 lb. bags 10 lbs. (I know that's crazy heavy, but imagine carrying 5 day packs instead of 1 single pack) that makes bicycle pack wt. 5 lb heavier than hiker pack wt. 25 lb. But the cyclist will carry less food so that kinda evens out the pack wts.
That gives me a skin out hiker wt. of 40 lbs.
Cycling skin out wt. sounds like an extra 25 lb. make it 65 lb.
Let's make the hiker 200 lb. skin in.
So all of the hiker wt. is on his feet.
But a certain amount of the loaded bicycle wt. is on the tires.
So what's the diff?
I'm nor here to argue hiker total wt. lower that if you want. but lower cyclist skin out to 60 lb. not much less. keep cyclist's body wt the same as hiker body wt.
I lot of the bicycle tourists I've seen might be carrying closer to 100. Like a big 3 lb floor pump and a full blown coleman 2 burner car camping stove. Stupid things I've seen on bicycles is a different thread.

rafe
11-18-2015, 12:31
Have you tried riding up a 10% grade? Even with a light bike, it's tough.

In summer I routinely do a 19 mile bicycle loop that's mostly flat but with several easy (2-5%) grades. The steepest hill of all is the one I live on, and quite often, on the way home, I walk the bike rather than try to cycle up that grade. I'm guessing it's about 10%, a fifty or sixty foot climb in about 0.1 mile.

Hiking isn't quite as continuous-output as cycling; you can slow down your steps arbitrarily, take timeouts between steps, and so on. Yeah, you can gear down (on a bike) but at a certain point you realize you're moving at about the pace of a fast walk.

squeezebox
11-18-2015, 13:25
Have you tried riding up a 10% grade? Even with a light bike, it's tough.

In summer I routinely do a 19 mile bicycle loop that's mostly flat but with several easy (2-5%) grades. The steepest hill of all is the one I live on, and quite often, on the way home, I walk the bike rather than try to cycle up that grade. I'm guessing it's about 10%, a fifty or sixty foot climb in about 0.1 mile.

Hiking isn't quite as continuous-output as cycling; you can slow down your steps arbitrarily, take timeouts between steps, and so on. Yeah, you can gear down (on a bike) but at a certain point you realize you're moving at about the pace of a fast walk.

Agree with your gradient thought. So move my 10% question to 5% gradient. Thanks for your correction.
There is a local Wed. evening ride that has a 0.1 mile above 10% grade slower than walking !!
In Swiss in 1981 I was climbing out of the valley east of lake Geniva, Climbed , and climbed , climbed, one switch back and then another X infinity. Exhausted, hungry. Started snowing, June 28th, I was so upset i finally threw the bicycle into the ditch. I immediately realized I was in big trouble. I did not know anything about hypothermia at the time other than it existed and I was in trouble. I apoligized to my bicycle, and then we made it the next 3 switchbacks to a tiny town. A very expensive hotel and a church. Not enough flat space to put up a 3x6 tent. After some rest I realized hitching over the mountain was what to do. As I was taking off my wheels and bags a very nice young French couple stopped loaded my stuff in their VW bus over the mountain in a full blown snow storm. The town over the pass was a classic German Swiss town complete with a Hostel from early Hitler days. Feather beds. When Frau Brugha showed up late afternoon she scolded me for entering the hostel early, I said I was sorry, She let me set up in the dorm. And about an hour later she invited me to supper. About 9-10 pm a group of scouts came in and took over the dorm. Lights out 10 pm mach schnell. We all slept well. In the morning Frau Brugha shook and patted my hand and wished me a good holiday. We waved at each other as I turned the corner. Thank you Frau Brugha !!!

BirdBrain
11-18-2015, 13:56
One could run calculations on work done per displacement for the varying weights. Factor in the mechanical advantage of the incline plane and gear ratios and not carrying the bike, discount friction between points of contact, discount moments of inertia in the tires and gears and on and on... or include them all and derive a number than seems to say something. There are more practical matters to consider. Duration of event plays a huge part. The hiker probable will take a much longer time covering the same distance. Therefore, power (rate of work) is more relevant. Also, we are designed better than the bike. The lock step thread illustrates this. We have the ability to be resting while working. This is not as easy to accomplish on a bike. Balance is another issue. We are designed better than the bike in this regard. We can handle inclines better than the bike. Straight facing it, the bike system weighs more than the hiker system. Therefore, more work will be done over the same distance. On paper, there are mechanical advantages in the bike system. The hiking system will appear to be easier as the incline increases because of our design superiority and lower rate of power consumption. Pick your poison. I would rather walk.

LoneStranger
11-18-2015, 14:20
Having spent a lot of time on both my feet and on wheels I've come to the conclusion that the difference is that a hiker going up a steep mountain continually slowing down will eventually be standing still and resting while a cyclist in the same situation will fall over if he doesn't keep going above a certain speed.

Going down is about equal and much easier to calculate because speed is just an inverse function of sanity :)

Do all the math you want, but once you understand this much you know the important stuff.

Pedaling Fool
11-18-2015, 15:47
All someone has to do is take a bike and ride up a hill to see how tough it is; however, if you're not so inclined then all you gotta do is watch the best cyclists in the world ride up hill, then notice the fat drunk bastards running next to them:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ERoO-_kZY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHElF8kODg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3NxXSb1K0 ............. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX3nhA205EQ


The trick is to build up the legs before hitting the trail (or bike route). Lift heavy weights and lift light (relatively) weights with super high reps and those hills will be easy. This will not only make the climbing easy, but will also result in the body producing more hormones to make you stronger.

Myth: Just because you cycle, run, backpack, play soccer and whatever else, does not preclude the need for weight training for the legs. Too many people use that excuse.

Mr. Bumpy
11-18-2015, 16:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcKBmdfpWs

colorado_rob
11-18-2015, 19:07
Just MHO, but 10% grade ain't that bad... 10 degrees is (roughly 20%), but seems like 10% is a reasonable slope and there are such slopes all over the place on road rides. Yeah, I'm usually in a very low gear on 10%....

...Anyway, it's all about Energy. Hiking or biking on dead-flat terrain takes very little energy. Sure, the biker burns even less because he can coast, something a hiker cannot do. Us biped human beings are amazing efficient with walking. Google that up sometime.

I don't see much of a mechanical advantage for either hiker or biker going up steeper (and steep) hills. Eliminating the coasting advantage, when going up a hill, either a hiker or a biker, your body has to overcome the increase in your potential energy, called "mgh" by us enginerds. (mass times acceleration of gravity times the height gained). It's the "m" part that kills bikers on steeper grades, because they are heavier, by their bike weight, than hikers. Like your numbers, 25lb heavier, basically the bike. It doesn't matter whether the weight is on your feet, your head or your wheels, you're still dragging all that weight up hill, overcoming gravity's potential energy gained.

On a certain upslope when I'm out trail running, I start passing bikers, even if I'm only power walking and they are peddling in granny gear. Not sure what this slope is, probably 15% and above or so, rough guess. Again, just because they are dragging that extra 25lbs up the hill. simple physics.

Zach ADK
11-18-2015, 23:04
It's an interesting question. As a non-mathematical person I can't contribute much to the OP's question. The biggest advantage that the bicycle has in terms of efficiency (in my ignorant opinion) is that it feels to me like it takes a good bit of energy to hike down a steep slope whereas it is almost effortless on a bicycle. I can comfortably bicycle 100 miles in a day with my camping gear(I do it every year on my way to the Adirondacks to hike), and the furthest I have hiked in a day is about 19 miles, carrying most of the same stuff (less the bike). I would say that in my mind a trip that consisted entirely of uphill grades might be more efficient on foot, but I have yet to experience that trip.
Zach

squeezebox
11-19-2015, 00:08
Do add the estimated 25 lb weight of bicycle and extra bags. But yes how can I cycle 100miles but walking 20 miles? I think there are some races that include trail runners and trail cyclists, I wonder what the results are?? Why is there a difference?? That's my question.

By the by bikers ride Harleys, wear leather , and smell bad.
cyclists ride Trek bicycles (and such), wear spandex, and smell worse.
I do not own a motorcycle.

Dogwood
11-19-2015, 01:25
Make it easier. Consider the hiker and all the wt that he is and he carries as one object(a mass) having a constant force applied to the object up a 10* incline. Consider the bicyclist being all the wt he is, wt he's carrying/wearing and the bicycle as one object(a mass) that a constant force is applied to up a 10* incline. Assuming both have the same constant velocity covering an equal distance starting instaneously at that velocity the wheel allows the bicyclist to do less work to go the same distance at the same velocity. It's an easy Physics I problem this way. Start changing the forces and it turns into a bit more complicated Dynamics problem involving integrals in possibly several aspects.

Dogwood
11-19-2015, 01:28
Here it is rather simplistically equated under a variable force. http://faculty.wwu.edu/vawter/physicsnet/topics/Work/DefinitionWork.html

Traveler
11-19-2015, 07:30
I am not sure there is a comparison here outside of workout time. Different muscles would be used, different techniques would come into play. Then the cyclist who is paying attention to the statistical details involved with this will not hear the car coming from behind and gets hit, thus ending the exercise and demonstrating cars are the ultimate variable.

Pedaling Fool
11-19-2015, 08:34
Do add the estimated 25 lb weight of bicycle and extra bags. But yes how can I cycle 100miles but walking 20 miles? I think there are some races that include trail runners and trail cyclists, I wonder what the results are?? Why is there a difference?? That's my question.

By the by bikers ride Harleys, wear leather , and smell bad.
cyclists ride Trek bicycles (and such), wear spandex, and smell worse.
I do not own a motorcycle.Totally different question, than your OP. You don't ride your 100-mile trips up hill and all up hills have down hills and as all cyclists know, down hills are not only easy, but FUN!!! and effortless, albeit they can also be very dangerous...

The bulk of the reason it's easy to do 100-miles on a bike is because even if you're a very slow rider you should be able to do 100 miles in ~10 hours. Simply because for every revolution of your pedal you develop much more speed than a walker. As for the weight, for a cyclists it obviously slows you down, just as it does for a hiker, but you don't feel that weight working on your skeletal system and the gearing of the bike helps greatly in mitigating that weight (along with other things). To simply ride a bike for 100-miles is not really that impressive, for me to be impressed I would have to know the route, the conditions, the time it took you and can you do it back to back?

The hardest part for all newbies to cycling and doing 100 miles isn't an issue of cardio fitness, necessarily, but rather all the body parts that must be toughened up to riding all day, and those sores go way beyond the obvious saddle sore issues.

In my mind you really can't compare hiking to cycling. Two completely separate things, there are so many other things I could list that make it impossible to compare the two activities.




I am not sure there is a comparison here outside of workout time. Different muscles would be used, different techniques would come into play. Then the cyclist who is paying attention to the statistical details involved with this will not hear the car coming from behind and gets hit, thus ending the exercise and demonstrating cars are the ultimate variable.
I've been hit by a cars 3 times (four times depending on your definition of "hit":D), trust me, it gets easier with time:) And it's just another reason to lift heavy weights -- build up that armor:banana

Traveler
11-19-2015, 09:06
I've been hit by a cars 3 times (four times depending on your definition of "hit":D), trust me, it gets easier with time:) And it's just another reason to lift heavy weights -- build up that armor:banana

I look at cyclists warily these days, having followed one in the middle of the driving lane (near San Francisco), refusing to yield to traffic, then running two stop signs before screaming at me when I passed him in a passing zone that I wasn't being courteous. Not sure why this fellow was so upset but it caused me to be leery of folks on bikes dressed up like Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. ;)

rafe
11-19-2015, 09:06
It's an interesting question. As a non-mathematical person I can't contribute much to the OP's question. The biggest advantage that the bicycle has in terms of efficiency (in my ignorant opinion) is that it feels to me like it takes a good bit of energy to hike down a steep slope whereas it is almost effortless on a bicycle. I can comfortably bicycle 100 miles in a day with my camping gear(I do it every year on my way to the Adirondacks to hike), and the furthest I have hiked in a day is about 19 miles, carrying most of the same stuff (less the bike). I would say that in my mind a trip that consisted entirely of uphill grades might be more efficient on foot, but I have yet to experience that trip.
Zach

This. I have frequently combined bicycling and hiking, though I am no champion at either.

A typical bike-hike section has comparable miles on bike vs. on foot, yet the bike part takes hours, while the hike takes days. I average about 13 mph on my local bike loop, but about 1.5 mph (if that) on most parts of the AT.

Seems to me, one case where the bike doesn't win out is on extreme steep uphills. But mostly, on roads, that's rare.

juma
11-19-2015, 09:27
I exercise daily with a 2+ hour hike or bike ride. I note on my fitbit data that I expend 8 calories an minute hiking and 6-7 calories a minute biking. Hiking, I usually end up with 50:50 cardio vesus fatburn. Biking, its more like 25:75 cardio versus fatburn.

I stepped up from 1 hour a day to 2 hours a day in June 2015. Lost 35 pounds since then and weigh in at my high school weight now.

Venchka
11-19-2015, 09:32
To see the real world effects of the efficiency of the bicycle, one only has to look at Josh Kato's results in the 2015 Tour Divide. In his first full ride of the G.D.M.B.R., completely self supported and not sponsored, Josh completed the course in 14 days, 11 hours and 37 minutes.

Josh is very low key.


After finishing he commented that he could not believe he finished, or that he finished ahead of Neil and JayP... "I'm just a nurse... This hasn't sunk in... I can't believe it" he said to himself and those around him several times.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=josh%20kato%20tour%20divide

Josh's account of his first attempt in 2014. Josh is tough!

http://faroutwanderings.blogspot.com/2015/01/my-tour-divide-2014-story-ingredients.html

Josh's wife, Valerie, in her first attempt, completed the course in 2014 in 28 days. Valerie rocks!

http://faroutwanderings.blogspot.com/2015/01/vals-tour-divide-bike-and-kit-what.html

Wayne

Pedaling Fool
11-19-2015, 09:52
I look at cyclists warily these days, having followed one in the middle of the driving lane (near San Francisco), refusing to yield to traffic, then running two stop signs before screaming at me when I passed him in a passing zone that I wasn't being courteous. Not sure why this fellow was so upset but it caused me to be leery of folks on bikes dressed up like Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. ;)As a full-time cyclist, I'm embarrassed by many so-called cyclists (and I'm not referring to people that only ride occasionally).

I know the laws very well and I've heard of all the rationale of other cyclists of why they are entitled to taking the entire lane (all the time) and running lights/signs and all the other bad behavior. There is no defense. Sense of entitlement is not only a problem in the hiking community; it's well-embedded in the cycling community.

Pedaling Fool
11-19-2015, 10:47
I exercise daily with a 2+ hour hike or bike ride. I note on my fitbit data that I expend 8 calories an minute hiking and 6-7 calories a minute biking. Hiking, I usually end up with 50:50 cardio vesus fatburn. Biking, its more like 25:75 cardio versus fatburn.

I stepped up from 1 hour a day to 2 hours a day in June 2015. Lost 35 pounds since then and weigh in at my high school weight now.Calories burned, now that starts getting really tricky. I'm convinced we all don't have a clue in how many calories we burn, because of the multitude of factors, including HR, which also is no where near as a set thing as many seem to claim (I know that from experience). My cycling computer has a feature that allows me to see how many calories I'm burning, but I don't really pay it any mind, because I know how complex this issue really is (it also allows me to track how much CO2 I'm keeping out of the atmosphere:rolleyes:).

However, let's assume we take these calculations as somewhat accurate, then the questions become: How fast do you cycle and hike; How much weight do you carry on a bike vs hike; how often do you get out of the saddle during a ride...In other words is your exertion level about the same for cycling as for hiking (at least as measure from HR? -- and that in of itself {comparing HR in various activities} is tricky) It's very tricky to compare the two.

I'm probably considered an average cyclists, at least by these standards, but when you put me up against a lot of other riders, I'm generally much faster, but still fall well short of the pros. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/21/news/la-heb-tour-de-france-20110721 In that article, you can see just how difficult riding can be if you were to attempt to ride like the pros.

I hear it all the time how people think cycling is easy, to them I say just come with me on a ride, it's never a leisurely roll.

As for calorie expenditure and hiking these are the typical calculations, but again I see so many problems with them that I don't think they are even in the ball park. http://equipped.outdoors.org/2013/04/how-many-calories-do-you-burn.html

squeezebox
11-19-2015, 11:18
All someone has to do is take a bike and ride up a hill to see how tough it is; however, if you're not so inclined then all you gotta do is watch the best cyclists in the world ride up hill, then notice the fat drunk bastards running next to them:D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ERoO-_kZY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIHElF8kODg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls3NxXSb1K0 ............. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX3nhA205EQ


The trick is to build up the legs before hitting the trail (or bike route). Lift heavy weights and lift light (relatively) weights with super high reps and those hills will be easy. This will not only make the climbing easy, but will also result in the body producing more hormones to make you stronger.

Myth: Just because you cycle, run, backpack, play soccer and whatever else, does not preclude the need for weight training for the legs. Too many people use that excuse.


Fair enough!

squeezebox
11-19-2015, 12:00
As a full-time cyclist, I'm embarrassed by many so-called cyclists (and I'm not referring to people that only ride occasionally).

I know the laws very well and I've heard of all the rationale of other cyclists of why they are entitled to taking the entire lane (all the time) and running lights/signs and all the other bad behavior. There is no defense. Sense of entitlement is not only a problem in the hiking community; it's well-embedded in the cycling community.

Agreed. If there is not enough room for a bicycle and a car I will take the full lane for my safety, many drivers do not understand this. And I have seen cyclists take a full lane full time, probably as an attempted protest on cars. And there is the issue of a pack of cyclists, How large does the group need to be to deserve a full lane? Kinda like the runners on the park path who take the whole path and won't yield to people coming the other way. But that's a sepparete rant. If nobody is around I will roll a stop light/sign. If a car was there 1st and tries to wave me through I refuse. Learn the traffic laws, I'm not a child, just another vehicle, just slower than you are most of the time. Respect please!
This happened to me fairly recently. I was in my car at a stop sign, obviously I had the right of way. But I saw a bicycle coming in downhill fast. I stayed stopped layed on the horn. He flipped me the finger going through. A cop was stopped opposite me.
me to cop: Did you see that?
cop; Yea!
me: gonna do anything about it?
cop: no
me: why not?
cop: it wasn't a car.
me What if it was a scotter?
Cop: well that's a different story.
me: Why?
cop: don't be stupid it's different.
me: I'll call your supervisor and see what he thinks.

Dogwood
11-19-2015, 15:11
Hmm, I guess Physics wasn't the goal?

juma
11-20-2015, 09:32
Calories burned, now that starts getting really tricky. I'm convinced we all don't have a clue in how many calories we burn, because of the multitude of factors, including HR, which also is no where near as a set thing as many seem to claim (I know that from experience). My cycling computer has a feature that allows me to see how many calories I'm burning, but I don't really pay it any mind, because I know how complex this issue really is (it also allows me to track how much CO2 I'm keeping out of the atmosphere:rolleyes:).

However, let's assume we take these calculations as somewhat accurate, then the questions become: How fast do you cycle and hike; How much weight do you carry on a bike vs hike; how often do you get out of the saddle during a ride...In other words is your exertion level about the same for cycling as for hiking (at least as measure from HR? -- and that in of itself {comparing HR in various activities} is tricky) It's very tricky to compare the two.

I'm probably considered an average cyclists, at least by these standards, but when you put me up against a lot of other riders, I'm generally much faster, but still fall well short of the pros. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/21/news/la-heb-tour-de-france-20110721 In that article, you can see just how difficult riding can be if you were to attempt to ride like the pros.

I hear it all the time how people think cycling is easy, to them I say just come with me on a ride, it's never a leisurely roll.

As for calorie expenditure and hiking these are the typical calculations, but again I see so many problems with them that I don't think they are even in the ball park. http://equipped.outdoors.org/2013/04/how-many-calories-do-you-burn.html

Agree they are not accurate and would be different under other conditions of weight and effort. They do represent MY different levels of effort day hiking versus day biking as I roll along listening to radio and daydreaming. I do what is comfortable with great regularity and good results. this measurement is stimulating-the end.