Winter sleeping pad options

[sethd513]

The base of my sleep system will be a thermarest trail lite with a r-value of 4.9. I'd like to add a piece of double bubble reflectix to this. Either 3 or 4 ft I was considering. Options are underneath or on top of the thermarest and finally inside the sleeping bag. I feel as though inside the bag will create moisture and be uncomfortable. Unsure if it will only be the same on top of the thermarest as there is no gap for air movement. And if I place the reflectix underneath the pad I'm assuming it won't give me anything unless moisture rises through the tent floor. Any info on using this material in the proper fashion would be great. Am I better off just using my half length zlite sol as it has small holes which would act as baffles to trap the warm air instead of or in addition to? Thanks


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[Just Bill]

I think you'll do better with the foam pad... though I'm just getting into Reflectix personally.
Foam against the ground and pad on that is a proven winner and you can't go wrong with that.

Reflectix thus far-
In the hammock- makes the most difference in combo with an air pad on the bottom(ground side).

On the ground- since you have a self inflator (foam filled not air filled)
Under your pad, it would protect your pad from the ground and any melting/sublimating snow from your body heat leaking through the pad. With that pad it looks like the foam cuts go vertical (top to bottom) rather than horizontal (cored out block of foam) so I think you'd see the most benefit with it underneath from a warmth standpoint too.

On top of your pad the only real benefit is the reflective layer (silver).

Hit the backyard and try each way...

Don't put the reflectix in your bag.

[RangerZ]

[QUOTE=sethd513;2020666]The base of my sleep system will be a thermarest trail lite with a r-value of 4.9. I'd like to add a piece of double bubble reflectix to this. Either 3 or 4 ft I was considering. Options are underneath or on top of the thermarest and finally inside the sleeping bag. I feel as though inside the bag will create moisture and be uncomfortable. Unsure if it will only be the same on top of the thermarest as there is no gap for air movement. And if I place the reflectix underneath the pad I'm assuming it won't give me anything unless moisture rises through the tent floor. Any info on using this material in the proper fashion would be great. Am I better off just using my half length zlite sol as it has small holes which would act as baffles to trap the warm air instead of or in addition to? Thanks


I'm going out this weekend, partially to test something like this. I use a full length zlite sol pad and have a full length (but not quite full width) roll of reflectix. With 14 hours of dark I figure I'll have time to play around. I have the same moisture concerns about putting the reflectix in my bag plus thoughts about damaging the material of the inside of the bag. I might try it while I'm reading. Last year I used the reflectix under my bag on top of the pad and it helped but I can't estimate how much. I was okay at 18* in a 23* bag in a long base layer, but I like to sleep cool. Overnight temps Sat/Sun are forecasted to be 33/21 feelreal so it may not be the best test.

I might make a high speed run to REI for a bag liner to try too. The 20% coupon is burning a hole in my pocket. :banana

[sethd513]

Bill would you say the half length zlite wouldn't be enough against the tent floor? I have two halfs and one full. Possibly 4ft of reflectix then half zlite sol then thermarest. Unfortunately I'm trying to keep this as light as possible and my pad is practically a brick. They were both new 30$ each so I didn't want to pass it up.

Another full length z lite could be purchased but that would be making my total pad weight into the mid 3s. My hope was that the reflectix on the tent floor from head to knees would deal with the majority of weight pushing down and creating a moisture issue. It's one of those things that I will just have to try out. I am though going to get some 1 mil polycro and somehow get it under the tent floor without problems hopefully to guaranty no ground moisture.


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[Tipi Walter]

Agree with Just Bill---All this reasoning is best figured out tonight and last night and tomorrow night in the backyard or on your porch or deck in the cold. Try it first with nothing. Ow, cold. Then try just a ccf pad. Oops, cold and hard. Now try a stand alone inflatable. Decent. Now try a couple pads together. My opinion is: Never hit the woods without a pre-tested winter pad and bag system already dialed in.

[Just Bill]

Bill would you say the half length zlite wouldn't be enough against the tent floor? I have two halfs and one full. Possibly 4ft of reflectix then half zlite sol then thermarest. Unfortunately I'm trying to keep this as light as possible and my pad is practically a brick. They were both new 30$ each so I didn't want to pass it up.

Another full length z lite could be purchased but that would be making my total pad weight into the mid 3s. My hope was that the reflectix on the tent floor from head to knees would deal with the majority of weight pushing down and creating a moisture issue. It's one of those things that I will just have to try out. I am though going to get some 1 mil polycro and somehow get it under the tent floor without problems hopefully to guaranty no ground moisture.


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I'm a bit confussed.

Not sure what you're hoping to do...

What temp are you shooting for?
What problem are you solving?

An R 4.9 pad can go to 10 degrees or so on it's own... so will that do it?
The neo-air Xtherm is R5 and many folks go to zero with just that pad.

Condensation occurs same as a cold drink on a hot day- except you're the hot day and the ground (tent floor) becomes the cold drink.
Poly cro will prevent your pad from freezing to the tent floor (happens closer to 10 or so). It's not alot of moisture, but would build up over a week.

In kinda cold (30*) the snow can literally melt which can make the tent floor wet... in this case, solution is poly cro OUTSIDE the tent as a ground sheet. Though walter will tell you nothing less than a bomber alpine tent floor will do :) both solve the problem.

Lightest and simplest, unless you're pushing way past 10*... is your Trest and a polycro sheet.

If you are going colder or a cold sleeper... foamy or reflectix in half length would be the next to add.
I would bring either if you are unsure, not to mention with the long nights you're likely going to want a sit pad if you're hanging around camp anyway.
You can always put your pack under your self inflator at your feet. Another trick is to put your shoes under your pad or a scrap of foam in your bag under your heels.

Take it to the scale, but the Reflectix I cut to match my L Xtherm came out to 9 oz... less than the equivalent SOL came out to.

Reflectix is kinda weird voodoo... it's roughly R1, but if used in just the right place can make a huge difference.
Using a scrap for a problem spot inside your bag is fine... using a whole piece... not so much.
The other problem is staying on a piece of it in a stack of pads/bags... you're less likely to skitter off the Sol than the slippery reflectix... so now you need to add in some pad straps or shock cord bungees to keep the pads together.

[Just Bill]

[QUOTE=sethd513;2020666]The base of my sleep system will be a thermarest trail lite with a r-value of 4.9. I'd like to add a piece of double bubble reflectix to this. Either 3 or 4 ft I was considering. Options are underneath or on top of the thermarest and finally inside the sleeping bag. I feel as though inside the bag will create moisture and be uncomfortable. Unsure if it will only be the same on top of the thermarest as there is no gap for air movement. And if I place the reflectix underneath the pad I'm assuming it won't give me anything unless moisture rises through the tent floor. Any info on using this material in the proper fashion would be great. Am I better off just using my half length zlite sol as it has small holes which would act as baffles to trap the warm air instead of or in addition to? Thanks


I'm going out this weekend, partially to test something like this. I use a full length zlite sol pad and have a full length (but not quite full width) roll of reflectix. With 14 hours of dark I figure I'll have time to play around. I have the same moisture concerns about putting the reflectix in my bag plus thoughts about damaging the material of the inside of the bag. I might try it while I'm reading. Last year I used the reflectix under my bag on top of the pad and it helped but I can't estimate how much. I was okay at 18* in a 23* bag in a long base layer, but I like to sleep cool. Overnight temps Sat/Sun are forecasted to be 33/21 feelreal so it may not be the best test.

I might make a high speed run to REI for a bag liner to try too. The 20% coupon is burning a hole in my pocket. :banana

Liners don't do much... I used to be a fan but no longer. Save the coupon for something else ;)

Used as described- my understanding is the Reflectix is R1.
Though it does reflect heat back to you which is a notable (but not very quantifiable) benefit.
So reflectix over foam makes sense as the other way you would loose the benefit of the radiant barrier (the silver stuff). Otherwise it's just bubble wrap.

On the other hand- When used with an air pad (like Neo-Air or xtherm) you get the benefit of the radiant barrier and the R1 at the bottom. I suspect this is superior to 1/4" foam because of the added convection losses in the air pad that are painfully obvious in my hammock... though not so bad on the ground.

According to some of the info on reflectix site, using it in various assemblies is it's real voodoo power. As a construction guy I'm a bit skeptical of some of them but it makes sense from a problem solving sense. In my hammock, rapid convection losses and stripping of insulated air occurs. The reflectix shuts that down, so my pad can achieve at least it's rated value plus the radiant layer.

It's not quite 2+2=5 kinda voodoo, but there is more going on when you create an assembly with dead air spaces. If you just stack it up though with no dead air... it's basically just R1 per layer and too bulky to use.

We'll see, supposed to be nine or ten around here this weekend with some decent wind. So we'll see how it shakes out in the back yard.

[sethd513]

If I could be at -10 with this I'd be happy. I do plan on trying out all these options before a trip I'd be crazy not to I just don't know if I'll be able to test inside what temperature I'm trying to figure for.

The polycro would be underneath the tent. We picked up a winter tent with a water rating on the lighter end at 3000mm making the combination of the two hopefully less likely to weep.

My goal with the reflectix is hopefully to keep the snow from melting down and possibly a moisture barrier between whatever pad touches the tent floor if moisture was to be inside on the tent floor. I feel that if anything could freeze or stick inside the tent then that thermarest will be compromised since there is some air inside.

I'm just trying to be over prepared because it's served me best in the past. Also with the way the weather has been here in New England so far I'm assuming I'll have to go to nh to find trouble before a trip in mass.


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[Gambit McCrae]

My winter sleep system is an:
Exped Downmat 7(-11*F) matched with a Western Mountaineering Antelope MS (5*F) and a Hilleberg Anjan GT.

Excited to test it all out, I got cold last year around Erwin, froze my ars off in the snow, I said never again will I be cold on the AT lol

[Tipi Walter]

Just be careful with the Exped and don't dig your elbow into the firm pad as you attempt to turn over. Exped baffles are known to blow a seam and turn from one tube into two tubes into three tubes etc.

[Gambit McCrae]

Just be careful with the Exped and don't dig your elbow into the firm pad as you attempt to turn over. Exped baffles are known to blow a seam and turn from one tube into two tubes into three tubes etc.

Yessir found this out a couple weeks ago using my synmat 7 ul. Just outside of Bland, Va. I have had 2 defects in my Exped pads and unfortunately I seem to have about a 20-30 night max use out of my Expeds so far. BUT, their customer service is excellent and they keep sending me new ones so I'm not complaining.

I have an Exped Synmat 7 Ul LW, and a reg as well for when guests want to come. And a down mat 7. I figure they will improve over time.

My first issue was a slow leak out of the valve, second was a blown baffle last week

[Just Bill]

If I could be at -10 with this I'd be happy. I do plan on trying out all these options before a trip I'd be crazy not to I just don't know if I'll be able to test inside what temperature I'm trying to figure for.

The polycro would be underneath the tent. We picked up a winter tent with a water rating on the lighter end at 3000mm making the combination of the two hopefully less likely to weep.

My goal with the reflectix is hopefully to keep the snow from melting down and possibly a moisture barrier between whatever pad touches the tent floor if moisture was to be inside on the tent floor. I feel that if anything could freeze or stick inside the tent then that thermarest will be compromised since there is some air inside.

I'm just trying to be over prepared because it's served me best in the past. Also with the way the weather has been here in New England so far I'm assuming I'll have to go to nh to find trouble before a trip in mass.


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-10 I don't think you'll get much melt.
Settling snow, can look like it melted.
Condensation can look like the tent leaked.
I wouldn't be too worried about actual leaking unless you're closer to 20*
Snow is actually a really good insulator (igloo), so you can go farther on the ground with your pads. -10 air temp doesn't mean you're sleeping on a -10* surface.

R-5 thermarest with the R2.5+ sol zlite under it is your safest bet and should be fine to -10.
Any condensation is likely to be on the bottom of your Trest in this setup, but any moisture at the tent floor won't freeze your pad.
You can probably leave the polycro at home unless you want it (crusty snow can chew your tents)
As clunky as it is, the z style pad is a bit better as a sit pad IMO too. You can roll it, if you have the volume to spare, it can be rolled up ala frameless pad pack frame and then pack your gear into it.

I'd save the reflectix for backyard or car camping experiments for now. In the air, I think it can do some interesting things for you... on the ground, I don't see a big advantage if any over foam.

[sethd513]

Sounds good thanks for the help bill. All your info is spot on for my issues.


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