Quilt stacking from Enlightened Equipment article and talks.

[Just Bill]

Had a chance to do a little quilt stacking over the weekend inspired by Peter and the recent Enlightened Equipment article.
http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/blog/quilts-106-quilt-layering-for-cold-temps/


I put my Town's End quilts together- a Regular sized (42" footbox) 25* inside and a Big Guy sized (48" footbox) 45*
Per Peter's chart from EE and my own math this combo should be good to zero.

Didn't quite get there this weekend (about 10* low) but it worked really well. I personally own a good mummy bag so never thought to mess with this much, but it works very well so far. I felt warm up top with some warmth to spare. (still having pad issues in the hammock)

No issues in the footbox but I could have used a pad strap or some type of mating system to put the quilts together as I found the top one slid off a few times during the weekend when I rolled over and wasn't careful. I don't normally use any pad straps or other stuff ground or air... so I'll have to look into this but EE seems to have this solution available for thier stuff. I think something as simple as a mitten clip, s-biner, or even piece of cordage would have been enough to "mate" the quilts so the top one couldn't slip off.

I left the two intact last night although lows were only about 20*.

I definitely liked having the double synthetic as well- I pulled the mess over my head for a bit to warm the whole thing up fast with no worries about breath vapor. I wouldn't have thought to push synthetic to these temps, but in this setup I found it worked great. I also like not having to worry about blowing snow or other water issues at these temps. Either way- the synthetic outer idea makes a lot of sense as that's where body moisture is most likely to condense in those temps... so doing down inside synthetic would give you that benefit without having to carry a 20* ish synthetic as most folks like that piece in down..

Not too horrible of a system really either wight wise when balanced with the pocketbook-
45* large size is about 18 oz ($170 ish)
25* regular size is about 26oz ($185 ish)
Used in combo 0* rated system at 44 oz. (2lb 12oz) and a total cost of $355 bucks.
Weight wise you could do way better than that, but for $Free ninety nine (or a double pad strap I suppose) a sub 3lb quilt is in line with commercial zero bags
http://www.rei.com/product/879822/the-north-face-inferno-0-sleeping-bag or http://www.rei.com/product/864092/marmot-lithium-sleeping-bag
Even after you add in the hat weight to replace the mummy hood.

And if you know the Houdini Puffy trick ... the 18 oz large 45* quilt replaces your down puffy so really you're not picking up too much weight and saving a ton of money in the process. I think that provided enough nights of use, a dedicated mummy at zero or better is a good investment. But on the other hand for under $400 you could have a very good 4 season set of gear to cover you year round.

EE gear (since it is their idea)- you could do a
50* REG/REG Prodigy (synthetic) at 13.94oz and $160
20* REG/REG Revelation(800 fp down) at 19.72oz and $250
To get a zero degree combo at 33.66 oz and $410.

Also really helps the debate for early starting NOBO or late start SOBO thru's... Pick up a decent summer and three season quilt and get your FEB/March bag covered too. We all agree that roughly 45/25/zero is a good bag selection to have, but springing for all three is a budget breaker for most folks and this is a great solution for that. Start with both quilts, send the 45* home when you clear Smokies (or so), swap the 25 for the 45 come summer and then back to the 25 or both for the finish.

Definitely needs more testing by other folks to build up the field results...
But I'm happy with the math (+/- 5*) and the concept, and EE in general is usually a bit conservative.

Thanks Peter and Enlightened for the article, research and inspiration.

But the best feedback is from the field- try this out if you have a chance this winter!
The utility of this solution really surprised me.

[squeezebox]

That's what I'm thinkin' 'bout. Thanks for the info.

[1azarus]

well JB, you know I have a lot of trouble reading more than a few words in a row... attention span issue, I guess. So let me just ask you for the Reader's Digest version. Will the stacking approach work as well with a down inner quilt -- or is it a loft problem if you try stacking two down quilts? In my case, it would be a 35ish degree WM down sleeping bag and a 15ish degree Mountain Hardware Phantom...probably using both as quilts. In a hammock for sure, of course!

[peterboysen]

Thanks for the good press! It's really encouraging seeing other folks give this a shot, as for me it really opened up a big range of options for late-shoulder season and winter trips without costing a ton. Overall I like the education part of my job the best anyway, so it's nice to see some of that get some traction.

Everyone else, whether you have our gear or others, go try it!

[Just Bill]

For Laz-

If'n I remember right-
You got the WM Highlight- lists as 59/51/38 Shoulder/hip/foot
MH phantom 15- lists a regular as 59/53/38

If it's the Highlite- I'd try that inside. With the sewn thru construction I think you'd have better luck over all just because of that, but it's also a trim cut bag.

Peter mentioned that even with a slightly crowded footbox the down will likely find it's own way and he uses matching quilts (size wise)
My practical side disagrees, but only slightly, with the concern the bags are basically the same cut.

But for dimensionally challenged architects :D really it comes down to two simple issues:
Having never mastered getting in your sleeping bag inside your hammock (unless you've acquired the skill?)... can you pull this maneuver off?
That said- Assuming I recall your bag correctly- You'll never get the half zippered WM over the other bag anyway regardless of recent gymnastic improvements, so looks like mountain hardware bag over your WM bag regardless.


FWIW- for the quilts I mate the footboxes, then flipped the tops back.
I hop in the hammock, slip my feet in, then pull each bag up to my neck.
You could do up your zipper on the inner bag per your usual- or you may find that with that much downy goodness you could simply sit in your hammock, slip on both footboxes like two pairs of socks and then forgo the zippers completely.

One final thought occurs... having a right zip and left zip set of mummy's may give you a pretty sweet double hood pillow... or a doubly annoying rig. I'm not sure, lol.

[peterboysen]

One final thought occurs... having a right zip and left zip set of mummy's may give you a pretty sweet double hood pillow... or a doubly annoying rig. I'm not sure, lol.

The double hood/pillow could be ok, but you know that as soon as you're situated, you'll suddenly need to pee. :rolleyes:

[1azarus]

that's funny... Hennessy Hammock's asymmetrical side pull out points pretty much defined (at least for me) what side of the hammock you get into and out of. Out of habit, when I sit in my hammock, my right hand is almost always closest to the head end, which would put the head end Hennessey side pull out on the opposite side of the hammock, behind my back. And I should say that although it has been well more than five years since I've had the honor of sleeping in a Hennessy hammock, and I can't remember the last time I used side pull outs, the habit persists! I know my two sleeping bags are different zip sided. I think my MH bag is a left zipper, which always made getting into it when opened out in my hammock a pain... so I got my WM bag as a right zipper, which works much better for sitting down in the opened bag. I guess part of the attraction to stacking the sleeping bags is the fantasy that I will be warm enough to not have to zipper the darn things. What a pita that is.

[Just Bill]

Yar, the quilts have a big advantage in this system... double mummies is trickier for sure.
At the very least you could skip the zipper on the outer one easily... Per the math you'd be an easy -10 so I think you would find yerself pretty toasty in there. Specially as I found in a gathered end your UQ is doing the bulk of the work.

The only hesitation I have is that quilts are cut differently than mummies, and having two so closely matched in spec/size may compress your insulation more than in a non-differential cut quilt. Conceptually Peter's double footbox deal makes sense to me in the same size quilt, but that may not work as well in a mummy and you could find yourself colder than planned at your feet.

Kinda makes sense to keep the inner bag in the right orientation though to use the mummy hood since you have it and then use the other bag as a quilt.
A few safety pins through the zipper tape may make sense to help you sort out the entry procedures if you wanted to try them both as quilts. On the whole you seem to remain capable of new tricks despite your advancing age and you'll sort it out. ;)

Peter is correct though; the law of winter camping states that the instant everything is warmed up, settled in and you begin to doze off your bladder will traitorously object.

[Old Hiker]

Some interesting food for thought, Bill.

I was planning my 20* EE down quilt (+ EE hoodie, + EE booties) layered with a NEW syn military poncho liner. I have a 40* EE quilt for later up the Trail - now I wonder if I should do what you suggested and just leave the liner at home. Can't recall the different weights, will have to check.

2012 was WAY unseasonably warm - 2016 is supposed to be cooler and wetter with El Nino.

Hard to try things out here in mid-FL - temps tonight - 23 NOV 15 - are only getting down to about 49*.

Mating the bags: maybe some Velcro sticky dots? 4 - 8 just to keep them together may work.

[LoneStranger]

Went to an EE 20° Prodigy over a 40° down Ventra last winter with great result. No issues with down compression as the synthetic floats on top nicely. Combined with some extra sleep insulation and a good hat I've taken that down to -15°f.

[Just Bill]

Old Hiker- if you have two EE bags- http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/sub-zero-strap-for-layering-quilts/

Fer me- as long as the very top of my quilts was together (or I got more practice in) I'd be fine.
The 10d fabric I use is pretty slippery on itself... So when I turned over I was turning right out from under the very TQ.
That said- I'd think a single pad strap used on the outer quilt would work fine on the ground too.

In the hammock- I think they need to be secured to each other as there really isn't any where you'd put a pad strap comfortably.

[hikeandbike5]

what's the status with town's end quilts?

[Dogwood]

I hear it's not the quilt that is giving SOME folks, uhh folk, uh umm a person, uhh fits:D it's those darn sleeping pad selections,
But for dimensionally challenged architects :D lol

[RangerZ]

Just Bill - But will they fit in a 70L ULA, ULA Circuit or an Osprey 48 Kestrel?

[MuddyWaters]

Ive been fine stacking quilts into teens. But if like me and like to sleep with head propped on makeshift pillow, neck and shoulders is a very draft prone spot. A cushy pillow seals this off, but i dont take cushy pillow.

[egilbe]

Ive been fine stacking quilts into teens. But if like me and like to sleep with head propped on makeshift pillow, neck and shoulders is a very draft prone spot. A cushy pillow seals this off, but i dont take cushy pillow.

All my quilts from EE have a cinch cord and snap that prevent drafts when using an EE hoodlum. Nice and toasty. What does two 30* quilts get me down to?

[Dogwood]

Just Bill - But will they fit in a 70L ULA, ULA Circuit or an Osprey 48 Kestrel?



Wisearse. LOL

[RangerZ]

Thank you – I’ve been called worse by better, or is it better by worse?

It only got to 35* when I was out Sat/Sun so it didn’t really challenge my 23* bag. I wonder what temp I could stand if I used my two poncho liners that I use in the summer (down to about 40* with long base layers) as quilts with my bag?
I can tell you this, the smart wool base layers didn’t stop the wind when I got up in the middle of the night.

[squeezebox]

Somebody please post EE's chart. I don't how to do that stuff.
Also don't forget to buy a pair of EE's double quilt thingies.

[Just Bill]

what's the status with town's end quilts?
Interviewed three sewing contractors in Chicago area, selected one to prototype with (costs about 2k with the big boys)
The quality was excellent, and their tolerances were very tight so they shaved almost an ounce per size... but they aren't set up for this type of work so it looks like a bust. They wanted a 5000 piece order to cover equipment costs, which is a hair out of my price range so the search continues.

They can do my skirts and other stuff, but I'd like to stick with the quilts. I am in talks with a contractor that does quilting for the bedding industry so they have the right equipment, but working with big boy sewing contractors is tough for a little guy like me.

I'm going to give this contractor a go I think, but that would put me at spring delivery if it worked out. Otherwise I'll have to make them myself.

That said- I do have a dozen or so quilts from stock prototypes. I don't have my list with me but I believe you were higher on the list of interested folks so I'm considering selling a few of the samples to help fund the next round of prototypes. Probably $80-100 each depending on the quality. I'm not the prettiest seamster, and the first contractor blew dimensions and some other specs so while functional they are "seconds".

So if somebody knows a US based mid volume sewing contractor... still searching.

[Just Bill]

I hear it's not the quilt that is giving SOME folks, uhh folk, uh umm a person, uhh fits:D it's those darn sleeping pad selections,
But for dimensionally challenged architects :D lol

That folk is struggling on that end for sure.
I can do something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfsGdsTUTAU
But instead of 47 oz it weighs closer to 16... and would be about $100 instead of $300... but I feel like it should be able to go to at least 20* without needing a 3lb $300 downmat to do it. Though just cause I feel it, don't make it so, lol.

So yar... them pads is killing me. I think it'd be durn handy to be able to sleep in a shelter, peak, or other non-hanging fashion when you'd like... also think folks might like hammocks more if you could just put yer damn pad in there and call it a day. But it's hard to beat an UQ really, but then again sure is hard to sleep in a shelter with an UQ too.

I also spent the morning trying to explain to an Architect and an engineer how the architect couldn't read his own print, nor could the engineer do addition and as a result the GC can't pour a foundation to support my walls. I like to tease my friend the architect regarding dimensions. Thankfully sleeping bag specs can't be overwritten in Autocad by dimension tolerance settings.

[Just Bill]

Just Bill - But will they fit in a 70L ULA, ULA Circuit or an Osprey 48 Kestrel?



When dealing with quilt stacking, check out Glenn Van Peski's articles on pack stacking.
I'm going from memory on the math but I believe that a 70L ULA and a 48L Kestrel comes out to 90L.
Though I don't remember the osprey to gossamer gear conversion, I think that both EE quilts would fit that combo.

Doesn't matter what temp the quilts are either- or if they are down or synthetic.

on a totally unserious note-
I don't know much about poncho liners, but if used they'd probably have to go inside... I think they'd be too heavy and compress the down too much to make it worth hauling them?

[Just Bill]

Ive been fine stacking quilts into teens. But if like me and like to sleep with head propped on makeshift pillow, neck and shoulders is a very draft prone spot. A cushy pillow seals this off, but i dont take cushy pillow.

I make my quilts about 6" longer up top...
In a jamb I can side sleep and curl up a bit and use the top to make a mummy hood and squeeze an extra 5* or better.
In a normal night, I flip it in and it turns into a draft collar.

Little late in yer case maybe, but if ordering a quilt the extra length adds little to total weight but alot of function IMO.

[egilbe]

A poncho liner is, about, half inch thick quilted blanket. Very lightweight. Wouldn't compress anything, but would keep the down warm enough so moisture wouldn't condense and freeze in the down quilt.

[Just Bill]

A poncho liner is, about, half inch thick quilted blanket. Very lightweight. Wouldn't compress anything, but would keep the down warm enough so moisture wouldn't condense and freeze in the down quilt.

LOL, tried to find the insulation inside... Found this thread with a response from Tim at EE in it.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=75923

By the quilting... it looks like a Primaloft product. But BPL folks seem to think Climashield. Both make stuff for the military.

By the weight the 60g fill posted sounds right. (that's what's in the Patagonia Nano-puff for example)

best case it's PL gold- but let's call it Apex and 60g would be the same as an EE 50* Prodigy...
If the shell isn't some heavy ass bulletproof ripstop you'd have a heavier version of the prodigy, so to answer RangerZ's question better it should add 15-20* on top of a bag if all goes well.

The hammock folks have thread upon thread of PLUQ (Poncho Liner Under Quilt) uses if you wanted to check it out.
Folded in half (or doubled) should come closer to 40* on it's own, or adding 20-30* to your base bag.

At worst it would help with the condensation issue egilbe mentioned, and they are cheap.
Hit the back yard and let us know ;)

[saltysack]

Just Bill - But will they fit in a 70L ULA, ULA Circuit or an Osprey 48 Kestrel?



[emoji16][emoji90]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk