How low will a cannister go!

[misterfloyd]

Hello to all,

I wanted to know how low temp wise will a canister stove that is inverted for liquid feed will go. It is a MSR windpro I believe that is set up for this, not me flipping a can upside down. I know what a regular cannister stove will do in 20 degree weather but not an inverted one.

I've got a canister in the freezer right now to see, but the temp I'm expecting to use this will probably be colder.

By putting this in liquid feed, does it chew through more fuel in boiling snow?

Any information pertaining to this subject would be greatly appreciated and very welcome.

Hope all have a great Thanksgiving!

Best,
Floyd

[colorado_rob]

Not sure what temp your freezer is at, but mine runs right around zero F. I've used my inverted canister stove in below zero weather, maybe down to 10F below or so, works just fine. It does use significantly more fuel than a regular (upright) canister stove (useless below 20F though), not sure why, but take plenty of fuel. My wife and I chew through an 8oz (of fuel) canister or more a day. The rule of thumb for cold trips when you're melting all you water is approx. 6 oz of fuel per person per day. I find this is conservative for liquid stoves, but about right for inverted canisters.

FWIW, given the relatively high fuel use in bitter cold, I revert to my liquid fuel stove for all but very short winter trips. I'm convinced liquid fuel stoves are more efficient fuel-use wise in bitter cold, even with today's inverted canister systems. Inverted canisters are still pretty convenient though, hence why we use them for shorter trips, like one or two nights.

[cmoulder]

Hello to all,

I wanted to know how low temp wise will a canister stove that is inverted for liquid feed will go. It is a MSR windpro I believe that is set up for this, not me flipping a can upside down. I know what a regular cannister stove will do in 20 degree weather but not an inverted one.

I've got a canister in the freezer right now to see, but the temp I'm expecting to use this will probably be colder.

By putting this in liquid feed, does it chew through more fuel in boiling snow?

Any information pertaining to this subject would be greatly appreciated and very welcome.

Hope all have a great Thanksgiving!

Best,
Floyd

For an upright (canister top mounted) stove, you can use some 20 mil (0.020") copper strip, 1 inch wide, to make a heat exchanger strip to shunt some heat from the burner to the canister. The strip is attached to the canister with a Velcro strap, insulated with a small piece of silicone sheet. When it gets really cold, it works even better if you also have a closed-cell foam cozy for the canister. I've used this set-up successfully down to -6°F with a JB MiniMo, a Snow Peak Giga and a BRS-3000T.

There is a fairly long thread about this on BPL which I will link once the BPL server migration is complete...

Photo of a MiniMo being used in very cold weather in the Daks. Using a small canister, it operated quite well without a canister cozy. The second photo is of the MiniMo being used with a Sumo companion cup around 0°F in the Catskills.

[G.G.]

Nice work cmoulder. Thanks for the tip.

GG

[misterfloyd]

Very cool!

Im not certain the copper pipe will work with my msr super fly. How hot does that pipe get?
got to ask,the pipe is used to keep the canister warm?
I would use a liquid fuel except this is with BSA and they are from what I'm told prohibiting the use of white gas.
I always have used alky stoves, so I do not have a liquid fuel...... But I may look to buy one (hint)
Thank you for all the good hints and information
Best
floyd

[Just Tom]

You have been misinformed in regards to the BSA and white gas. At least as a general policy. Circumstances vary based on situation obviously.

[cmoulder]

Very cool!

Im not certain the copper pipe will work with my msr super fly. How hot does that pipe get?
got to ask,the pipe is used to keep the canister warm?
I would use a liquid fuel except this is with BSA and they are from what I'm told prohibiting the use of white gas.
I always have used alky stoves, so I do not have a liquid fuel...... But I may look to buy one (hint)
Thank you for all the good hints and information
Best
floyd

It's actually a strip, not a pipe. It will absolutely work with a Superfly.

The strip gets too hot to touch (about 150°F) but will not overheat the canister. This past summer — just to replicate worst-case scenarios — I conducted some tests with the strip and cozy at 75°F ambient temperatures, running the stoves at full-tilt for 1/2 hour or more. No overheating problems. Canisters are required per DOT regs to reach 150°F (overall canister temperature) without exploding, and even using the strip and the canister in the cozy they never got anywhere close to that temperature.

I tested this a lot last winter, both in my "lab" (my back deck, lol) and in the winter woods, and it just works. The whole exercise was inspired after my utter dismay with the lack of cold-weather performance from the MSR Reactor. Ironically, the HX strip doesn't work with Reactor/Windburner because of their design, but it works great with many other burners.

[Kaptainkriz]

@cmoulder, that's cool!

[misterfloyd]

Just Tom,
That is what I was told by our Council in the area.

Cmoulder,

That is very cool, and you are right. It will work with the stove I have. Just got it out, and looked at it. I'm assuming you got the silicone sheet at a hardware store?

Very cool indeed!
Floyd

[Just Tom]

If you are willing to share what you were told in detail, please PM me. I volunteer with scouting out here.

Separately, that stove mod looks awesome and I'm going to have to try that on my MiniMo.

[cmoulder]

I can understand why a local Council might have issues with WG... try to imagine the average 10-yr-old fueling, assembling, pressurizing, priming and running a Whisperlite. Plenty of adults can't even handle that job. Scuff an o-ring and get a fuel leak, or clog a jet, or break the pump cap, and most are totally clueless because almost nobody reads instructions any more.:confused:

Silicone sheet is probably available at the local hardware store, but my first one was a piece from one of those refillable squeeze containers, then a sheet from an ice tray cover from Bed, Bath & Beyond, then some more durable, hi-temp stuff from McMaster-Carr, part number 5787T11. Copper strip from Basic Copper, Velcro cinch straps from Campmor, part number 21848. The cozy is made from 3/8" CCF pieces glued together with Weldwood contact cement.

[4runner]

@ Cmoulder: what gauge is that copper strip? Like supermarket aluminum foil? Like roof flashing from Home Depot? Or something thicker?

thanks!

4r

[Just Tom]

I can understand why a local Council might have issues with WG... try to imagine the average 10-yr-old fueling, assembling, pressurizing, priming and running a Whisperlite. Plenty of adults can't even handle that job. Scuff an o-ring and get a fuel leak, or clog a jet, or break the pump cap, and most are totally clueless because almost nobody reads instructions any more.:confused:



That would be Cub Scouts...Boy Scouts are more in the 12 to 17 year old range, and when camping in New England outdoors every single month of the year, white gas becomes a near necessity for certain trips. The white-gas fueled Whisperlite is also the recommended stove for use a Philmont, so it would not be beneficial for an entire council to restrict its usage. I could go on, but I'm trying not to take this thread off topic more than I have already caused it to be :)

[MuddyWaters]

Keep it in your jacket and cannister works in all conditions, for short duration cooking. Melting snow, no.

[cmoulder]

@ Cmoulder: what gauge is that copper strip? Like supermarket aluminum foil? Like roof flashing from Home Depot? Or something thicker?

thanks!

4r

It's 20 mil, which is 0.020", more like aluminum roof flashing which commonly measures 0.025". However, you want copper, and I'm guessing you might be able to buy small quantities at Home Depot, etc, or Grainger, or local hardware, plumbing etc.

[cmoulder]

Keep it in your jacket and cannister works in all conditions, for short duration cooking. Melting snow, no.

With the copper strip, you can leave it out all night at 0°F and it will start in the morning and within a couple of minutes it'll be chugging along at full speed.

However, there are 2 factors to consider. When a larger canister gets pretty low on fuel there is little propane remaining in the mix, so the canister might need a tiny amount of warming (5 seconds of a Bic flame on the base of the canister) in order to light the stove. And the larger canister has more surface area and therefore gives up more heat to the ambient environment, hence the CCF cozy. In any event, once the stove is started, even a small amount of flame from the burner gets the feedback loop going and the stove is soon running full tilt.

[dzierzak]

That would be Cub Scouts...Boy Scouts are more in the 12 to 17 year old range, and when camping in New England outdoors every single month of the year, white gas becomes a near necessity for certain trips. The white-gas fueled Whisperlite is also the recommended stove for use a Philmont, so it would not be beneficial for an entire council to restrict its usage. I could go on, but I'm trying not to take this thread off topic more than I have already caused it to be :)

Just adding a bit more....

A local Council may have such a ban at their camps. However, I've found such "bans" are the result of some well-meaning, or unknowing person who passes on such information with no basis in fact. As Just Tom says, the Whisperlite is recommended for Philmont - a BSA National High Adventure Base. The BSA "Guide to Safe Scouting" (the nationally-published "safety" manual) says:

"Recommended chemical fuels—White gas (Coleman fuel); kerosene; liquefied petroleum gas fuels, including propane, butane, and isobutane; vegetable oil fuels; biodiesel fuel; and commercially prepared gelled-alcohol fuel in original containers."

Notice what's listed first. Some Councils mandate that excess fuels be stored at a central location at their camps. That's kind of hard to do when backpacking:rolleyes:
I've been in Scouting a number of years and have run into this quite a few times. Sorry for the off-topic detour...

[misterfloyd]

cmoulder,

Thank you sharing this information down to the part number. I'm going to get the parts and try this myself.
Thank you!!!!

I will call my local council for the information one more time......

Thank you all for you good information and your willingness to share it!
Best,
Floyd

[misterfloyd]

Well
took a trip down to Lowes. Nada on all parts. Time to have a look see at Home Depot. Just a thought would carbon felt be an applicable replacement for the silicone ? I ask so I can tinker around with my alky stove.
Floyd

[cmoulder]

Carbon felt will work; I know someone who's done it.

However, if you look around Bed, Bath & Beyond there are oodles of items containing silicone sheet these days.

That's a common issue with these small projects... getting together small amounts of somewhat unusual bits.

[Venchka]

Silicone measuring cups. Take a canister to a place like Bed, Bath & Beyond or Walmart and find a cup that the canister fits. Cut off what you need from the cup. Based on the cups I own, I'm guessing that a one or two cup size should be about the right inside diameter.
Hobby stores might have copper sheets. Find an appropriate thickness & cut to fit.
Velcro straps. Good for use on your pack too.
http://www.velcro.com/products/ties-and-straps/900601__all-purpose-strap-elastic#/?color=2f0946dde4d8407b96fdb976c147323a&shape=7d82aa5b97df47cbb63519d9210586e4&size=27in x 1in
Good luck!

Wayne

[Sarcasm the elf]

I routinely use my first generation jetboil down into the single digits using the 4 season fuel. It takes a little monkeying with it sometimes and I keep the canister inside my jacket while I set up camp to let it warm up. Usually when it's that cold it takes an extra couple of minutes to boil water, but it still does it reasonably fast.

[misterfloyd]

Thanks guys for the intel. I was really surprised H. Depot, or Lowe's did not have it.

I'm in hot pursuit as we speak!!
Floyd

[sliverstorm]

@cmoulder did you ever come up with a trick for the Reactor? What altitude were you running at, and how cold was it, when it started to crap out on you?

[cmoulder]

No, not really feasible to employ the heat shunt idea because of the burner design. I'm sure there's somebody out there smart enough to do it, but it's not a hack I'd want to undertake.

The initial disappointment was around 5°F at fairly low elevation, perhaps 1000 ft at the most. Fortunately it was a simple overnighter with a buddy of mine and we managed to melt enough snow for breakfast water needs, but it wasn't easy.

[Kaptainkriz]

Finally tried this, left my canister outside all night and temps were around 15F this morning. I'm using the small canister refilled with butane, and it is mostly empty. Without doing anything I opened the valve and no gas came out at all. I warmed it in my hands for a few seconds and it lit, but was weak. In under a minute with the copper strip in place it came to full power. For a small canister, one of those silicone wristbands works great to hold the strip in place:
33638

[cmoulder]

Finally tried this, left my canister outside all night and temps were around 15F this morning. I'm using the small canister refilled with butane, and it is mostly empty. Without doing anything I opened the valve and no gas came out at all. I warmed it in my hands for a few seconds and it lit, but was weak. In under a minute with the copper strip in place it came to full power. For a small canister, one of those silicone wristbands works great to hold the strip in place:
33638

Very nice! Good idea with the silicone band, and a good job matching the curve of the strip to the canister. If it gets much colder a cozy will help, especially when using a larger canister. In that case, a larger piece of silicone is needed to cover the copper strip.

The first time I tested with straight-up n-butane I was astonished. Here was a stove operating at full power near 0°F with no propane or isobutane in the mix.33639

[Another Kevin]

I personally find that there's no temperature range for me that's right for a canister. When I use a priming pan with my alcohol stove and start it with a wisp of toilet tissue, it burns reliably down at least to about -5°F. That's already in the range where I start worrying about having to melt drinking water, and neither alcohol nor propane/isobutane/n-butane is efficient enough for that. That's when the Whisperlite starts to shine.

Then again, I'm a patient man. I was out once with Elf when he boiled the water for my morning coffee because he didn't want to wait for my alky stove to do it.

[cmoulder]

Hmm. I've melted snow for water with canister stoves quite a few times. In the past I did a whole bunch of snow melting with Whisperlites and XGKs, but I now prefer canister.

Denatured alcohol has about 1/2 the BTUs of butane, and butane has roughly 10% more BTUs than naphtha.

It would indeed take a whole lot of patience to make a quart of boiling water from snow using alcohol.

Photo: Turning snow into boiling water at 4°F with a Jetboil — no problem.
33644

[zelph]

I personally find that there's no temperature range for me that's right for a canister. When I use a priming pan with my alcohol stove and start it with a wisp of toilet tissue, it burns reliably down at least to about -5°F. That's already in the range where I start worrying about having to melt drinking water, and neither alcohol nor propane/isobutane/n-butane is efficient enough for that. That's when the Whisperlite starts to shine.

Then again, I'm a patient man. I was out once with Elf when he boiled the water for my morning coffee because he didn't want to wait for my alky stove to do it.

Ahhhh yes, patience :-) it's a virtue ;-)

There are alcohol burners out there that have good capacity and flame size to melt snow when necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiPp2ZvL3h8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiPp2ZvL3h8

[Sarcasm the elf]

Then again, I'm a patient man. I was out once with Elf when he boiled the water for my morning coffee because he didn't want to wait for my alky stove to do it.

All this time I thought I was just being helpful and now I find myself accused of being impatient.:D

[zelph]

All this time I thought I was just being helpful and now I find myself accused of being impatient.:D

If you can let a coon lick your face.....you've got patience LOL


https://youtu.be/rusa_XmiVCo