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Skyline
11-24-2015, 12:55
Yep, there's some ageism there, ya think? Remember also that a lot of trail maintainers and builders are in the Redford and Newman and Nolte demographic. The majority, from what I've seen. You know, the folks who organize and do the real work of making the trail a thing.


Whether it's trail maintenance, little league, boy scouts, food banks, or whatever there just aren't a sufficient number of younger folks to replace the older folks doing much of the work when they need to stop for health reasons (or pass away). It's an ongoing issue since at least the 1990s, nothing new in 2015. Older organizers recognize it, but there have been few if any real solutions to increase volunteerism among Gen X, Y, or Millennials. Unless there are, the future of all things that depend upon volunteers are not going to continue as-is much longer.

(And please, I know there are younger volunteers--especially for short periods of time like multi-day work trips to do special trail projects--just not nearly enough for most of the rest of the year, or to adopt and solidly maintain sections of trail, shelters, etc. It could simply be a long-term commitment problem even though we see a fewyoung folks out there. Since many of the current aged volunteers did get started as young folks, I have to think that this is a more recent phenomenon.)

Volunteers who are Baby Boomers and the "greatest generation" before them are literally and figuratively a dying breed not being replaced one-to-one or even close to that. That's a fact, no need to debate it. But are there any practical ideas at our cyber campfire for improving that situation?

QHShowoman
11-24-2015, 13:12
Volunteers who are Baby Boomers and the "greatest generation" before them are literally and figuratively a dying breed not being replaced one-to-one or even close to that. That's a fact, no need to debate it. But are there any practical ideas at our cyber campfire for improving that situation?


I think part of the issue is that workplace demands have changed greatly over the past two decades. We work longer hours, have longer commutes and less free time. This all results in less time to volunteer. It's easier for younger folks to volunteer for shorter periods of time because they're using their paid vacation days to do so. There's a greater number of older folks volunteering because they're the ones with the time to do so -- they're retired, kids are grown, etc.

Lots of volunteer opportunities require multiple time commitments a month -- because it's not worth it to them to train someone who may only be able to volunteer once a month. But if volunteer opportunities could be adapted in a way that would allow a person to only volunteer 1-2 times a month vs. every week, I think younger folks would be more likely to volunteer.

Professor Paul
11-24-2015, 13:50
I think threads like this unfortunately often bring out a lot more of what you may consider intolerant opinions, even from people who are generally very supportive of the notion that introducing people to hiking and the AT, and having as many people involved, even casually, is a good thing. The AT is often called the "The People's Trail". Most folks here at WB are very supportive of that concept, especially as it was Benton MacKaye's vision that the AT provide a wilderness experience to as many people as possible. Most of us here are NOT elitist hikers who believe the trail is only for them. Most of us here are NOT even thru-hikers. Most of us here aren't long distance hiking every year and living on the trail. Most of us are just regular people who have jobs, families, and other interests - but with a passion for hiking and also protecting the AT from ABUSE.

One of the greatest causes of trail abuse are uneducated hikers whose behavior often isn't in keeping with protecting the trail and what the greatest part of the hiking community would like to present to society. It's everything from not practicing reasonable LNT, to excessive partying, etc. And unfortunately, mass media exposure of the trail tends to increase this demographic on the trail. Sure, there are a few members here who are at times rather intolerant, but sometimes even those that seem so simply present a very narrow comment that doesn't reflect their overall opinion due to the thread context. That said, like any internet board, opinions also tend to be over-stated and rather blunt at times, compared to how the same person would present their opinion in real life. I think that is more a reflection on the nature of social media though, than it is a reflection on the vast majority of hikers and WB members.

This all makes perfect sense. In my "real life" encounters with other hikers, the friendly attitude has been pervasive; that's why I found some of the comments here a little jarring. I recognize that the internet makes it hard to communicate as effectively as we'd like, and so everything here might not reflect the authors' full view of the situation. I also see problem behaviors as...a problem. But I also know a lot of people who like the idea of hiking more than the act; they try to give money and get to the woods maybe once or twice a year, because for whatever reason (generally extreme busyness or habit) they will never become more than casual bird-watcher sorts who stay close to their cars. I see no point in mocking them or others who actually share our goals and love of the forest. There are plenty of others out there seeking actively to destroy or undermine the wilderness and who don't in any way value the AT. Those are people who concern me, and they are the ones who deserve our antipathy.

Mags
11-24-2015, 14:26
I think part of the issue is that workplace demands have changed greatly over the past two decades. We work longer hours, have longer commutes and less free time. This all results in less time to volunteer. It's easier for younger folks to volunteer for shorter periods of time because they're using their paid vacation days to do so. There's a greater number of older folks volunteering because they're the ones with the time to do so -- they're retired, kids are grown, etc.



This +10000000

Most people in their late 20s to mid50s or so are in career mode. As you said, a job but also children and THEIR commitments on weekends.

I suspect in about 15-20 years, you will see more Gen Xers doing volunteeer work overall as we retire and our generation's children are raising their own families/starting careers.

I do trail work, volunteer on an outdoor board, etc..but I also don't have children. I spent three hours last night on a conference call for a volunteer organization. I was only able to do that because I left work a little early.

Most people in the Gen X age bracket would not have the luxury: Children to take care of, a job that is not as flexible (and I can only do that once in a while!), etc.

Of course, god knows when most people in the Gen X age bracket can retire..but that's another story. ;)

Skyline
11-24-2015, 14:49
Good feedback QHShowoman, Mags.

I think it would be more applicable to daily or weekly or at least regularly scheduled volunteering, however.

Adopting a trail or shelter can be done on one's own schedule. It can typically be done once per month. Maybe in the Spring or during heaviest usage, an extra time that month.

Today's seniors often have been dependable trail club volunteers since they were young. Many had jobs, school, career demands, families, etc to raise then also. In some ways, life for them in the '50s, '60s, and '70s was more difficult than for some younger people today. In some ways, life is more difficult today. The fact is that not enough younger people are raising their hands to take over trail-related volunteer positions when older people retire or die. Ask any of the 30 or so trail clubs along the AT. We've got to find ways to attract younger volunteers in larger numbers. Easy to say, but solid ideas to accomplish this are needed. I don't do social media like FB or Twitter so I can't comment with much knowledge, but is there some way to harness their power to help this along? Young people seem to live on their devices. Any other ideas?

Jeff
11-24-2015, 14:56
I have been impressed by quite a few Gen Xers. They are bright, articulate and yes indeed, rarely have much free time to volunteer. We will be in good hands in a few years when the Gen Xers take up the responsibility to maintain our trails.

Skyline
11-24-2015, 14:59
Another thought. I know they are not volunteers (they get paid a little, and make some tips), but the young people who work the AMC huts in the Whites compete for those positions. They are thought of as a "cool" way to spend one or more summers.

How do we make painting an AT shelter, or installing/maintaining drainage bars along a descending part of trail, or cutting grass and weeds seem "cool" enough to get them to want to do that also?

Skyline
11-24-2015, 15:08
I have been impressed by quite a few Gen Xers. They are bright, articulate and yes indeed, rarely have much free time to volunteer. We will be in good hands in a few years when the Gen Xers take up the responsibility to maintain our trails.


Agree. But it will be a different model, if it occurs. The current model, in which today's seniors started early in life to volunteer vs. waiting until one is retired or almost retired to start.

Two problems with this model.

1) There could be a gap of at least a couple decades with few if any volunteers, while the old are gone and the young are waiting to get old to start.

2) The Gen X and beyond volunteers starting later in life will be starting with lighter experience levels and with less sense of history of the Trail, and even their place in it, than those who started when in their teens/20s/30s.

QHShowoman
11-24-2015, 15:15
We've got to find ways to attract younger volunteers in larger numbers. Easy to say, but solid ideas to accomplish this are needed. I don't do social media like FB or Twitter so I can't comment with much knowledge, but is there some way to harness their power to help this along? Young people seem to live on their devices. Any other ideas?

I think social media can be helpful for getting the word out, yes, and there are entire apps that are devoted to helping organizations manage their volunteers, nowadays. A couple weekends ago, I volunteered with event set up for a charity event. I received a series of automated email messages containing everything I needed to know about my volunteer duties, as well as instructions on how to log into my volunteer profile in case I needed to change shifts, etc. It was nice to be able to manage my commitment that way and feel like I had some control.

The other thing young people seem to like (and you can see evidence in this by how outdoor retailers are trying to get more young people outdoors) is being part of a group or community. Host a happy hour or other sort of gathering in an area that's easily accessible to young people to introduce them to the different types of trail club volunteer opportunities. Also, being able to provide free transportation to the trail (especially in urban areas where young people may not have cars), might encourage more people to volunteer -- maybe it's as simple as setting up carpools or a shuttle van from the nearest train/bus station to the trail. And if the local trail club HQ is hard to get to, then move workshops and meetings somewhere that's more accessible, and you're guaranteed to get a better turnout.

QHShowoman
11-24-2015, 15:25
A

2) The Gen X and beyond volunteers starting later in life will be starting with lighter experience levels and with less sense of history of the Trail, and even their place in it, than those who started when in their teens/20s/30s.


This should not be an obstacle. For anyone. If trail clubs want to attract volunteers, they need to be willing to train and utilize volunteers at all experience levels.

Also, discrediting younger volunteers for their lacking a sense of history/place is exactly the kind of elitism that turns younger people off from joining established organizations. That's why you see so many new organizations/meetups/charities popping up -- younger folks are creating their own organizations where their contributions are valued.

You don't need to have an understanding of the history of the trail to pick up trash ...or clear trails ... or paint blazes. Teach the younger generations how to work the trail on their own terms and they'll inherit the history from the more experienced folks they work with.

Skyline
11-24-2015, 15:58
This should not be an obstacle. For anyone. If trail clubs want to attract volunteers, they need to be willing to train and utilize volunteers at all experience levels.

Also, discrediting younger volunteers for their lacking a sense of history/place is exactly the kind of elitism that turns younger people off from joining established organizations. That's why you see so many new organizations/meetups/charities popping up -- younger folks are creating their own organizations where their contributions are valued.

You don't need to have an understanding of the history of the trail to pick up trash ...or clear trails ... or paint blazes. Teach the younger generations how to work the trail on their own terms and they'll inherit the history from the more experienced folks they work with.


All good points. And I did not mean to "sound" elitist, because I'm not.

Trail clubs, at least those that still have good teachers, certainly train newcomers to do various tasks and handle/maintain the necessary equipment.

By sense of history, I only meant that like anyone new, they don't come to the table (usually) with a great sense of how the Trail came to be, or how the volunteer experience has worked and is still working within the club. It's all teachable, and as generations change, the latter is changeable too. But there is a disadvantage, in my opinion, to waiting until later in life to begin that education process. Not an insurmountable disadvantage, but it exists.

I would not assume that the contributions of younger people are undervalued by the veterans of trail clubs. Just the opposite. If young people are getting that message perhaps we all need a remedial course in giving and receiving messages.

Skyline
11-24-2015, 16:01
The other thing young people seem to like (and you can see evidence in this by how outdoor retailers are trying to get more young people outdoors) is being part of a group or community. Host a happy hour or other sort of gathering in an area that's easily accessible to young people to introduce them to the different types of trail club volunteer opportunities. Also, being able to provide free transportation to the trail (especially in urban areas where young people may not have cars), might encourage more people to volunteer -- maybe it's as simple as setting up carpools or a shuttle van from the nearest train/bus station to the trail. And if the local trail club HQ is hard to get to, then move workshops and meetings somewhere that's more accessible, and you're guaranteed to get a better turnout.

For special group trail projects, all of this is valid. But when you adopt a trail section or other project on an ongoing basis, it is typically a solo venture. If you're lucky, you can get a friend or two to join you once in awhile. So just make sure one of them drives!

QHShowoman
11-24-2015, 16:14
For special group trail projects, all of this is valid. But when you adopt a trail section or other project on an ongoing basis, it is typically a solo venture. If you're lucky, you can get a friend or two to join you once in awhile. So just make sure one of them drives!


If you want to attract younger volunteers (i.e. millenials) to adopt sections of the trail, then you need to find a way to make it a collaborative venture. Millenials are very team-oriented and will want to work/volunteer where their friends are working, so you either need to find a way to promote this as a team effort or create sort of a "matchmaking" model where if a single volunteer wants to "hook up" with a team of trail maintainers, you can match them up with others in their area.

Mags
11-24-2015, 16:28
Another thought. I know they are not volunteers (they get paid a little, and make some tips), but the young people who work the AMC huts in the Whites compete for those positions. They are thought of as a "cool" way to spend one or more summers.



Those are few jobs..and many of the people who work those jobs tend to come from affluent families (connected :) ). Think of it as a lifeguard job at a beach: Similar demographic (college age) and socioeconomic background. As for trail building, weeding, etc. check out Americorps. At least out west, they do a LOT of trail work. I've worked with quite a few of them myself.

I suspect the AT, being composed of mainly volunteer groups, does not get the non-profit, even if low paid, workers as much.




2) The Gen X and beyond volunteers starting later in life will be starting with lighter experience levels and with less sense of history of the Trail, and even their place in it, than those who started when in their teens/20s/30s.

Considering it will be people like QShowwoman and myself who will be (and are..and least in my case) the volunteers, can you really say we don't have a sense of trail history?

As an aside, many of the key people and volunteers at the CDTC are late 30s to late 40s. Myself included. I think GenX is stepping up to the plate. I suspect the Millennials will be in a similar position 20 yrs from now.

I truly think once our generation as whole is mainly retired, the trails, parks and open space will be in good hands.

By the way, I am enjoying this thoughtful and respectful discussion. Truly...

Mags
11-24-2015, 16:38
Started a new thread with all the previous responses...

Just Bill
11-24-2015, 18:32
Started a new thread with all the previous responses...
Thanks I woulda missed wherever you plucked this from.

Studlintsean
11-24-2015, 18:36
I haven't read the whole thread due to time right now (I'll come back) but had a few things to share. I do volunteer for a few organizations (Board Member/ Treasurer of a local Dog rescue and on my neighborhood finance committee). I personally think everyone should volunteer for one thing they are passionate about (as time permits). I reached out about a local shelter being built in my area offering five 25-30 year old men (5 brothers) multiple times. After over 6 months of trying (and successfully speaking with the head PATC member on the project), I gave up. Is it possible some maintainers would rather not include us younger folks? I look forward to helping more with AT maintenance in the future but unfortunately right now, I'm not able to.

Just Bill
11-24-2015, 19:24
I used to be pretty down about this too for the same reasons and observations made by the OP, but QH hit the nail on the head... unless Dogwood's cultural revolution arrives I can attest that life with kiddos is time consuming, generally requires working for money and at the very least remains a fact of life.

After that realization, it's easy to be encouraged. While there are certainly boomers who know each other personally, and plenty of trail legends and volunteers known of through the strong word of mouth contact on the AT... that type of reach, while pretty amazing, has been massively eclipsed by facebook and social media. Hell even this site.

My generation has folks like Allgood, Snorkel, Swami, Mags and many others already taking up positions within the community. While my generation is small compared to the boomers or millennials it's in a unique position and plenty of fine folks are stepping up to the plate. As the community is growing up and checking out new trails these folks are moving past just the AT, or the triple crown. As a whole all our nations trails have much more attention, awareness, and access.

At first I rolled my eyes at younger people and their "Tramily", but it's no different than we've experienced face to face on the trail, just more widespread. People know each other, know other like minded folks. In general there is a lack of community across the board in our country, folks are looking for it and finding it.

It's rare to find a 20 something who has a sense of service or giving back. It's not a natural impulse. Our job is to be selfish and make our way in the world at that time. It's only as we age, build a community, find our place in it, and perhaps raise kids of our own that we start to look to give back. To repay, protect, nurture and even to leave something behind. It's also a natural impulse as we look to the far end of our lives.

Forgive the mild political generalization, as it applies to few here-
The boomers as a whole tend to stand in the way of true political progress on environmental protection, energy independence, and other related "progressive" environmental issues. And even the boomers seem to be wavering on true opposition to these issues.

Point being...
The boomers are starting to move on, so are the lingering hold out votes.

In the case of our little group there are many qualified folks already stepping up. Much like the workforce is seeing people of my generation step into leadership or management roles earlier than the previous generation did, you will see many strong people emerge to bridge that gap.

The second largest generation is the millennials, who are building a huge interconnected "tramily", listening to The Trail Show, watching a Jennifer Pharr Davis on Ted and now at the ATC. Or two full generations of girls watching Jen or somebody like Anish start to enter the woods. If you're looking for bodies on the ground, these kids are already providing them. Some boomer in their facebook hiking tramily group said to volunteer, and finding a community that they like, guess what... they are doing it.

Most importantly though, somewhere the tide will shift and votes will be cast. Political will and a much deeper sense of community will lead to a very well protected and thriving trail system. Not to mention that while Climate and Environmental issues can be dismissed by many a boomer as "not in my lifetime"... there are few of my generation and almost zero millennials who buy that line.

I just listened to the latest trail show today. The young feller that was on talking about the north country trail was one of the most enthusiastic trail promoters I've ever heard. That kid was awesome. And he whipped out e-mails and links and journals and what sounded like enough energy to answer every one that came his way. He helped build the damn trail before and after he hiked it. All for a trail that most folks have never heard of. As the kids like to say now, he had zero "f's" to give about the hard parts, or roadwalks, or any BS. He just wanted to hike an awesome trail. Made me wanna quit my job and hike it. Guessing there's quite a few folks who can do just that and will.

And in every state there's somebody putting up a route, doing a rails to trails conversion, hell even the Cook County Forest Preserve finally opened some campgrounds here in Chicago. There will be a lull, maybe even a bit less attention for the AT for a bit perhaps... but it all looks pretty decent to me.

Maybe even downright encouraging.

perdidochas
11-24-2015, 19:27
Whether it's trail maintenance, little league, boy scouts, food banks, or whatever there just aren't a sufficient number of younger folks to replace the older folks doing much of the work when they need to stop for health reasons (or pass away). It's an ongoing issue since at least the 1990s, nothing new in 2015. Older organizers recognize it, but there have been few if any real solutions to increase volunteerism among Gen X, Y, or Millennials. Unless there are, the future of all things that depend upon volunteers are not going to continue as-is much longer.

(And please, I know there are younger volunteers--especially for short periods of time like multi-day work trips to do special trail projects--just not nearly enough for most of the rest of the year, or to adopt and solidly maintain sections of trail, shelters, etc. It could simply be a long-term commitment problem even though we see a fewyoung folks out there. Since many of the current aged volunteers did get started as young folks, I have to think that this is a more recent phenomenon.)

Volunteers who are Baby Boomers and the "greatest generation" before them are literally and figuratively a dying breed not being replaced one-to-one or even close to that. That's a fact, no need to debate it. But are there any practical ideas at our cyber campfire for improving that situation?

Well, I have approached it the only way I know how and it was based on what my parents did. My parents are Silent Generation folks, BTW. My Mom was a Cub Scout den leader for several years. I in turn (a Gen Xer) have been a Scout leader for about 9 years now. I plan to continue this after my boys go off to college. I think my boys have the volunteer bug, as they are always volunteering for OA (ORder of the Arrow, a Scouting society) above and beyond what others are doing. I wish that we were closer to a trail to maintain. I remember talkig to one of the other Scoutmasters about that while we were backpacking on the Pinhoti. We wished that we were close enough to do trail maintenance (he's a Gen Xer too).

Part of the problem iss that a lot of volunteer organizations are dominated by Boomers and often aren't all that welcoming to new blood, especially us slacker Xers (as we are viewed). I've seen it many times in church activities. They complain on one hand about not having enough volunteers, but then when you do volunteer, they don't have anything for you to do--they have it covered. Takes about twice for that to happen, and I decide that I'm not really needed by that organization. I've seen it happen quite a bit.

One possible good point for the future is that a lot of states require many high school students to volunteer, generally as part of a scholarship. There are a lot of volunteer workers out there that just aren't being tapped.

map man
11-24-2015, 19:56
People who don't have to work (retirees and others) do most of the volunteering. It was so when I was young, when my father was young, when my grandfather was young, and on and on. I don't think differences between generations has much to do with it.

And yes, older generations have insisted that the younger generations won't be up to snuff for all of recorded history. And they have always been wrong.

Starchild
11-24-2015, 20:07
It's a restart.

My take is that the older generation simply failed to reach the next generation. For what ever reason that is it just is, so no need to go further on that. But the younger generation has found their way on their own and continues to find it by themselves, pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. They don't accept the old ways because for them there were none passed down to them. This means the learning process will need to start anew with all it's painful consequences. But they will, though it is a dirty learning process, they will not only continue the tradition but in the end make it much better.

Spacelord
11-24-2015, 20:40
This should not be an obstacle. For anyone. If trail clubs want to attract volunteers, they need to be willing to train and utilize volunteers at all experience levels.

Also, discrediting younger volunteers for their lacking a sense of history/place is exactly the kind of elitism that turns younger people off from joining established organizations. That's why you see so many new organizations/meetups/charities popping up -- younger folks are creating their own organizations where their contributions are valued.

You don't need to have an understanding of the history of the trail to pick up trash ...or clear trails ... or paint blazes. Teach the younger generations how to work the trail on their own terms and they'll inherit the history from the more experienced folks they work with.
Most of the trail organizations make it a pain to volunteer. The people that I hike with would just rather trim limbs and a saw down trees, out of the way on their own. The elitist attitude truly exist with the maintainers that I've met on work days.

shelterbuilder
11-24-2015, 22:33
Speaking from the perspective of a Boomer - and a trail volunteer for almost 30 years - I became a volunteer so that I could GIVE SOMETHING BACK to the trail because of all of the fun and good times that I had had while hiking. But I was also raised this way - Mom was a Cub Scout Den Leader, Mom and Dad were church youth group advisors, etc. And I think that has something to do with the idea that "giving back is important" - you know: "monkey see, monkey do". When I joined my local hiking club and began coming out for maintenance trips, I KNEW NOTHING, but I kept showing up, kept asking questions, kept helping. Eventually, I got the reputation of being someone who was willing to help. Now, I've never had a problem getting folks to come out for "special projects", but the nature of a special project is that IT IS SPECIAL. You can point to it and say, "I helped build that". But it's harder to get folks to come out for the "nuts-and-bolts" type of maintenance that HAS to be done to keep the trail open, because the only time that this type of work gets noticed is when it ISN'T done. And that's not a generational thing - that's human nature! I intend to try to get my club to utilize our website AND social media more (right now, we aren't taking full advantage of either), because most of the younger folks do seem to use their phones and devices a LOT. As for me, I'm still more comfortable with a chainsaw than a tablet, so please be patient with me....

Traveler
11-25-2015, 07:09
People who don't have to work (retirees and others) do most of the volunteering. It was so when I was young, when my father was young, when my grandfather was young, and on and on. I don't think differences between generations has much to do with it.

And yes, older generations have insisted that the younger generations won't be up to snuff for all of recorded history. And they have always been wrong.

+ 10 One of the few things in the human condition that remains constant is the deriding of youth from those who had survived it as pointed out by researchers looking at the times of Socrates in 400 BCE, who is often credited with saying “The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

garlic08
11-25-2015, 09:15
...Volunteers who are Baby Boomers and the "greatest generation" before them are literally and figuratively a dying breed not being replaced one-to-one or even close to that. That's a fact, no need to debate it. But are there any practical ideas at our cyber campfire for improving that situation? (Italics provided)

I assume you mean something other than a way to increase the birth rate? Because I imagine that's been discussed at many a campfire....

I'm a Boomer and was raised by the Greatest Generation. All my young life I was derided for all the lifestyle choices that weren't in keeping with the previous generation's. And if you weren't there, try to imagine the National Guard opening fire on students at Kent State, the assassination of a US president and his brother, the horrible struggle of the civil rights movement and the assassination of Dr MLK, an unpopular war, the birth of rock and roll, even long hair. The world was gonna end. And that's all history and movies now.

People will step up if society values the result. It's entirely possible that trail maintenance will not be important enough to future generations to merit the work involved. And why should that bother us? I often look at some of the new tread being built (along the CDT corridor, for example) and wonder, "Who will maintain this?" So many trails are neglected--why build more?

But from my narrow point of view in the Western trails I'm involved with as a volunteer, I'm confident in the future. The "new" executive director of the AZT Association is a young man, surrounded by many young volunteers. Their correspondence, events, even sponsorship have a definite Gen X and Millennial "feel" to it. The leadership of the CDT Coalition is similarly very young.

Volunteer fire departments have long faced a similar concern. The simple solution is that if a community cannot provide the personnel to staff a volunteer department, it will either have to levy taxes on itself to pay for protection, or live with a lower level of protection and thus higher risk (and insurance rates).

If I were a working 30 year old right now, I would rankle at the tax burden required to support the aging, and the uncertainty of my ever retiring with a state-supported pension. I'd be working six days a week (being paid for five), and have zero time for outdoor recreation. Volunteer to build trail on my one day off--are you kidding? Hey, that sounds familiar--I think I was there for a while.

rafe
11-25-2015, 09:27
Just-retired boomer here, itching for the chance to do some trail work, but I still like to hike, and I still don't live anywhere near the AT. I've been to a couple RPH work parties (good fun) and a local trail work event sponsored by AMC.

So yeah, while I was a salaryman, my vacations went to hiking, not trail work. I'm ready to do some paying back. The stuff I've done has been rewarding. It's cool to work with a bunch of sweaty grungy volunteers.

4runner
11-25-2015, 09:52
@Qhshowman- could you elaborate on the apps to manage vollenteers that you refered to??

thanks!

4r

4runner
11-25-2015, 09:53
@Qhshowoman- could you elaborate on the apps to manage vollenteers that you refered to??

thanks!

4r

QHShowoman
11-25-2015, 10:38
@Qhshowoman- could you elaborate on the apps to manage vollenteers that you refered to??

thanks!

4r


Sure, here's a link to find out more about it:
https://www.volunteerspot.com/

Skyline
11-25-2015, 11:47
One possible good point for the future is that a lot of states require many high school students to volunteer, generally as part of a scholarship. There are a lot of volunteer workers out there that just aren't being tapped.


Now THAT is an idea whose time has come, and could go a long way to resolve the dilemma I've described (based on my perceptions and the records of some of the AT trail clubs I've been familiar with). Hopefully a few will even stick with it after their obligation is met.

I've always been a proponent of some kind of service requirement for a couple years in a young person's life. For some it might be military; for others there are myriad additional needs they could meet. Many other countries have similar programs in place.

QHShowoman
11-25-2015, 11:55
Some companies even have a volunteer "benefit," now.
My company gives us 2 paid days off each year to volunteer for a registered non-profit - doing whatever we want.

Skyline
11-25-2015, 11:55
... Now, I've never had a problem getting folks to come out for "special projects", but the nature of a special project is that IT IS SPECIAL. You can point to it and say, "I helped build that". But it's harder to get folks to come out for the "nuts-and-bolts" type of maintenance that HAS to be done to keep the trail open, because the only time that this type of work gets noticed is when it ISN'T done..


That's kind of what I was getting at. You said it better than I did.

The everyday maintenance of adopted trail and other places like shelters has traditionally been a solo affair, with only the occasional friend along to help. If I hear a few of the participants in this (very good) discussion correctly, we're being told younger people today want to "join" things to be with a group. So maybe that's a challenge for trail clubs to re-invent trail maintenance to a degree. But how?

Just Bill
11-25-2015, 12:37
That's kind of what I was getting at. You said it better than I did.

The everyday maintenance of adopted trail and other places like shelters has traditionally been a solo affair, with only the occasional friend along to help. If I hear a few of the participants in this (very good) discussion correctly, we're being told younger people today want to "join" things to be with a group. So maybe that's a challenge for trail clubs to re-invent trail maintenance to a degree. But how?

Isn't the general procedure for day to day handled by "adopt a section" type work?
As in this gal in our club covers a-b, and this fella covers b-c.
The head of a club organizes the big stuff or calls up folks for storm damage or special project stuff.
The solo maintainer is pretty autonomous as far as I can tell, and prefer that arrangement.

The complaint some seem to be making with that system...
That guy or gal doing the nuts and bolts work probably enjoys doing it solo, just as many of us come to prefer hiking solo. So (right or wrong) those folks may not want a hand as it spoils what they enjoy. In addition these folks likely do this work during the week and other off days to have the trail to themselves so other than the unemployed college kid- it'd be hard to assign a volunteer to a mentor for this type of work unless the mentor was willing to schedule around the volunteer. While a few may be willing to do this, a good manager knows you don't ruin one good worker to make 1.5 unhappy workers. Those that do this work this way should be left to do it.

Seems that a good club could identify those members who do enjoy outreach, education, and teaching. With a few core members as the backbone, set up a volunteer based unit assigned to those club members for the odd jobs and special stuff that may require more hands than heads and work out on a weekend.

Perhaps the solo nuts and bolts folks could call in some bigger stuff to this unit. Instead of killing themselves fixing a waterbar on their section, they could call that in and "save it" for the volunteer brigade to handle.

Provide space and opportunities for more casual or new folks to help- but don't mess with those doing the bulk of the work efficiently.
For those that deepen their involvement in the "fun" group, perhaps they could then be assigned or apprenticed by some of the nuts and bolts folks when they are ready and willing so that those skills are passed on as well.

In our area we have the little red schoolhouse nature center where we volunteered as scouts. The bulk of us simply picked up garbage or did odd things that took bodies. Some of us did our Eagle Scout projects there as well. But we didn't get assigned to the naturalists or researchers doing the important stuff.

Two of my friends were the special folks, who did catch the bug and started showing up daily. They earned respect and were eventually given access to the deeper work being done and are two folks who grew up to excel in that field.

They found and excellent balance of keeping bodies busy while not tying up critical resources.
As a result they found and created those 1 in 1000 who could carry on the critical work in the next generation.

Spacelord
11-25-2015, 12:47
Now THAT is an idea whose time has come, and could go a long way to resolve the dilemma I've described (based on my perceptions and the records of some of the AT trail clubs I've been familiar with). Hopefully a few will even stick with it after their obligation is met.

I've always been a proponent of some kind of service requirement for a couple years in a young person's life. For some it might be military; for others there are myriad additional needs they could meet. Many other countries have similar programs in place.
That doesn't sound like volunteering to me. I would guess that most people will come away from something they are forced to do with a bad taste in their mouth.

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk

Skyline
11-25-2015, 12:50
I haven't read the whole thread due to time right now (I'll come back) but had a few things to share. I do volunteer for a few organizations (Board Member/ Treasurer of a local Dog rescue and on my neighborhood finance committee). I personally think everyone should volunteer for one thing they are passionate about (as time permits). I reached out about a local shelter being built in my area offering five 25-30 year old men (5 brothers) multiple times. After over 6 months of trying (and successfully speaking with the head PATC member on the project), I gave up. Is it possible some maintainers would rather not include us younger folks? I look forward to helping more with AT maintenance in the future but unfortunately right now, I'm not able to.


I'm truly sorry to read of your problem with PATC. For more than a decade, I was a volunteer shelter "overseer" with them, and am a lifetime member even though I had to "retire" from that service due to health reasons and I relocated too far away to be useful.

As you've described it, you offered a fantastic resource I know they need. Unless there are details not included here, I don't know why someone didn't jump on your offer. I'm reasonably sure the people you were in contact with are also volunteers with their own time constraints, but opportunities to pick up the services of five new volunteers all at once don't come along very often. If ever.

If that offer is still viable, I would escalate it to the Executive Director or President, or both.

dudeijuststarted
11-25-2015, 12:59
I'd venture to say there isn't much of a younger population living near the trail corridor with the exception of the DC/VA region. As everyone knows, the mom-and-pops, factories, etc have closed down and created alot of dead towns in Appalachia. This has forced the younger folks to move to cities in search of employment. A trip to do trail maintenance is often hours away.

Personally, if I could live in the country and have a stable income I'd love nothing more than to build trails in my backyard, but that is not something I see happening anytime soon (and I'm 36!) However, it would be worthwhile to raise awareness of the issue and encourage monetary donation from folks who cannot contribute manual labor. More "S.W.E.A.T" type opportunities throughout the trail would be really helpful, allowing young workers to enjoy time in the woods on vacation and give back to the trail in large doses.

Skyline
11-25-2015, 13:12
That doesn't sound like volunteering to me. I would guess that most people will come away from something they are forced to do with a bad taste in their mouth.

Sent from my LG-V495 using Tapatalk


No, the government service requirement isn't volunteering. But it's something a number of governments have in place just like we used to have a military draft. Only you aren't forced to choose military. There are many other options.

I'm sure that you are correct. Some will not like this going in. But just like the old military draft, many will adapt and wind up staying in longer, even for a career, and look back at it being a positive touchstone in their lives. And others get out with a bad taste in their mouths, as you said.

From what little I know, mandatory government service works well in those nations that have it, partially because everyone participates regardless of lineage, circumstance, etc. with possible exceptions made for severe cases involving physical impairment, mental issues, or criminal histories. I think it is usually just a year or two, and for a certain young age (like 18-20, with certain deferments for just cause 'til a later age).

Does anyone here have first-hand knowledge of how it goes in a country with this system?

Just Bill
11-25-2015, 13:21
My high school instituted a mandatory volunteer requirement for graduation... two weeks I believe. (80 hours)

Like anything, depends on your mentality.
Some thought it sucked ass and cried about it, others enjoyed the opportunity and continued to volunteer.

I cheated and killed some scouting, legal, and school requirements with one shot so had little complaints.

As someone who has both volunteered and been court ordered to do so... I enjoyed both and was assigned to places I wouldn't have normally gone which expanded my horizons too.

Those who complain will find something to complain about, be it community service, shop class, or math class.
No reason to not implement the system though really provided you have the organizations that can utilize the labor- which as discussed isn't always the case.

I know many kids who were more or less assigned to "stand in the corner" which helps nobody. But if the goal is to expose young people to the opportunity or idea- that is more useful than the work that gets done anyway.

dudeijuststarted
11-25-2015, 13:35
Quite frankly, a revival of the CCC would be a wonderful stimulus for this struggling nation.

Just Bill
11-25-2015, 13:49
Quite frankly, a revival of the CCC would be a wonderful stimulus for this struggling nation.
Agree, I'd love to see that a million percent.
A handout with no action serves nobody, an action that results in a check is a job that builds pride and nation alike.

Call FDR, I'd give him a fifth term if I could.

rafe
11-25-2015, 13:54
[re: CCC]


Agree, I'd love to see that a million percent.
A handout with no action serves nobody, an action that results in a check is a job that builds pride and nation alike.

Call FDR, I'd give him a fifth term if I could.

+A whole bunch.

Mags
11-25-2015, 15:11
Does anyone here have first-hand knowledge of how it goes in a country with this system?

How about very close second hand knowledge? :)

My wife (German) had to do this when she was out of what we call high school. If you do a service job (medical usually), the term is longer. If you decide to do your national service stint for the military, the term is shorter.

Doing some quick google searching, it appear this program ended in 2011 for military and national service both:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/22/germany-abolish-compulsory-military-service

Both appear to be strictly voluntary now.

TexasBob
11-25-2015, 17:37
.....I don't think differences between generations has much to do with it......


So true. 5% of the people due 90% of the work in every club or organization I have ever been a part of over the years. Most people are usually willing to do a little bit to help out but few people are willing to do a lot. That is just the way it is no matter what generation they are a part of from what I have seen.

Furlough
11-25-2015, 19:07
I haven't read the whole thread due to time right now (I'll come back) but had a few things to share. I do volunteer for a few organizations (Board Member/ Treasurer of a local Dog rescue and on my neighborhood finance committee). I personally think everyone should volunteer for one thing they are passionate about (as time permits). I reached out about a local shelter being built in my area offering five 25-30 year old men (5 brothers) multiple times. After over 6 months of trying (and successfully speaking with the head PATC member on the project), I gave up. Is it possible some maintainers would rather not include us younger folks? I look forward to helping more with AT maintenance in the future but unfortunately right now, I'm not able to.

OUCH. I truly am very sorry about this. I am a PATC member and trail maintainer in the South District of SNP. We certainly would welcome this and any kind of help, long term would be great, but even help on short term projects would be greatly appreciated. If you or anyone you know is interested I recommend contacting Don White (South District Trail Overseer) at [email protected] Most projects won't happen until the Spring/Summer, but again any help down our way will be greatly appreciated. Once again on behalf of PATC I am sorry your offers fell on deaf ears.

imscotty
11-25-2015, 20:44
Sorry if this has been already mentioned, I did not read through the whole thread, but...

I book has been written about the trend of decreasing participation in social organizations and activities and the negative effects this will have on society. The book is called 'Bowling Alone.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone

As an active volunteer in my town, and as a member of a shrinking candlepin bowling league, I can attest to this sad trend. The civic organizations that have been the backbone of our democracy are dying.

BillyGr
11-25-2015, 20:55
I think my boys have the volunteer bug, as they are always volunteering for OA (ORder of the Arrow, a Scouting society) above and beyond what others are doing.

That is one of the main focuses in OA (service) so its not surprising that someone who is interested (as opposed to just voted in) would sign up for more things. On the main topic one thing not mentioned is that since trails keep expanding (more trails around, not just the trails getting longer) could what looks like less volunteers be partially a similar # of people spread over more places?

soilman
11-25-2015, 23:26
I agree with what some of the posts have already stated, that if you grow up in an atmosphere of volunteerism you are more likely to become a volunteer yourself. My parents were active volunteers in scouting, little league, church, and school and were raising six kids. I don't think they had extra time. They made the time to do this. I have been working on ATC crews as a volunteer for over 20 years. I carved out the time to do this. Regarding age as related to trail crews, we celebrated the 76 birthday of one of our Rocky Top crew at Birch Springs years ago. For the first time I was the oldest member of the crew this year at Konnarock. We had several 20 somethings that had never hiked a day in their lives and knew nothing about the AT. Kudos to the ATC for utilizing social media to attract this new type of volunteer.

As far as volunteerism in general, my experience is that some people will never volunteer for anything, be it blood donation, cleaning up the neighbor hood, or being room mother. There are a lot of opportunities to volunteer that do not require a huge time commitment but if one is not inclined, they will not step forward.

garlic08
11-26-2015, 08:28
...I don't think they had extra time. They made the time to do this...I carved out the time to do this....

Thank you for bringing this up. It's an excellent point.

It's like when so many say, "I would hike the AT but I just don't have the time." I reply that I don't have the time either. Making the time is one of the hard things about it, and a worthy challenge. Can you imagine the sort of life where you just have five or six months with nothing else to do? That would be horrible.

Cosmo
11-26-2015, 09:46
What a great topic, and thanks to all who have participated. Yes, many clubs are having difficulty in attracting younger and more diverse members. But others are meeting that challenge. Clubs with an urban base are at an advantage than more rural clubs, as there are larger populations to draw from. I think most clubs (mine, certainly) love to see anyone walking through our doors--but we need to find ways to make them welcome on their terms, which probably are going to be somewhat different than the way we are doing things now.

That said, what attracts many of us (meaning people like me, I guess) to volunteering for the Trail is the autonomy of what we do and that our work really matters (at least in the Trail world). We want the work we are, and have been, doing to continue at the high standards we've met. This means people who work with us need the training and experience we offer--implying then, a commitment to the effort. This is difficult to achieve in today's world, when there are so many things competing for our time.

I waited for several years before I got "my" section of the Trail to maintain. During that time, I participated in many of the projects that the club supported--from boundary maintenance to clearing fence lines, to building a shelter. I learned about how the Trail is managed and the roles of our many partners. I got to know the other members of the club. I learned woodscraft, trail craft, rudimentary surveying, map and compass, how to move rocks weighing more than myself, and a bunch of other stuff--mostly by being there.

There were two important contributing factors. Once the kids started driving themselves, I had the time. I also live less than a mile from the Trail, and in an area (Mass), where access is easy--I can be anywhere on the AT in Mass in less than two hours. So I was able to be there when there was stuff to do and learn. And, frankly, the other members of the club were like me, socially and culturally--so I fit in easily. Not sure I would have stuck around if the only thing I had in common with the rest of the group was a love for the Trail. The work, frankly, can get tiresome, and not particularly rewarding (how many years have we been cutting brush in this same field?). It the camaraderie that keeps me coming back. How that's going to translate into welcoming the next generation of Trail stewards, I'm not sure--trail clubs my find themselves less and less able to meet their management obligations as their number of participants dwindles. One way to counteract that is to make participation welcoming to the entire population that lives near the Trail, clubs that learn how to do this will thrive, those that don't will become increasingly isolated in a changing world.

Best wishes for the Holiday,

Cosmo

rafe
11-26-2015, 11:31
And if I get my 'druthers, when I do get down to serious trail work, it'll be in your neck of the woods, Cosmo. Somewhere along the AT in MA, just not sure north or south, or in between.

Bronk
11-26-2015, 12:45
The volunteer organizations I've been involved with have shown me that the old adage is true: 10% of the people do 90% of the work. The other 90% like to start sentences with "You should..." or "I would..." I've learned the the proper response to this is "That's a great idea, I'm putting you in charge of that project." Some people are unfortunately turned off by volunteer organizations because people that have been involved and done most of the work for a very long time consider it their own personal fiefdom and they've come to the place where, whether they are willing to admit it or not, they don't want to give up the power, control and position they are in, even though they may complain that they have to do it all...they love it. They don't want to grow the organization because they risk it slipping away from them if they do that. Anybody new that comes along and wants to get involved and do the work is perceived as trying to take over what they have and infringing upon their turf. Its hard for many people to understand, but in order for people to be motivated to volunteer, they have to get something for their time and effort, and in many cases the reward that they get has to be something along the lines of working on a project that they enjoy and being able to do it their way...if they wanted to take orders they'd just get a second job.

We do need more young people involved in volunteer work. For years there were organizations I belonged to where I was the youngest person in the room...and I was 30 to 35 years old...most of the others were in their 60s or older. But I think this is reflective of the fact that retirees have more free time to be involved in such activities. But if you are moving to a new area, getting involved in volunteer work is a great way to meet people.

tflaris
11-27-2015, 22:42
The volunteer organizations I've been involved with have shown me that the old adage is true: 10% of the people do 90% of the work. The other 90% like to start sentences with "You should..." or "I would..." I've learned the the proper response to this is "That's a great idea, I'm putting you in charge of that project." Some people are unfortunately turned off by volunteer organizations because people that have been involved and done most of the work for a very long time consider it their own personal fiefdom and they've come to the place where, whether they are willing to admit it or not, they don't want to give up the power, control and position they are in, even though they may complain that they have to do it all...they love it. They don't want to grow the organization because they risk it slipping away from them if they do that. Anybody new that comes along and wants to get involved and do the work is perceived as trying to take over what they have and infringing upon their turf. Its hard for many people to understand, but in order for people to be motivated to volunteer, they have to get something for their time and effort, and in many cases the reward that they get has to be something along the lines of working on a project that they enjoy and being able to do it their way...if they wanted to take orders they'd just get a second job.

We do need more young people involved in volunteer work. For years there were organizations I belonged to where I was the youngest person in the room...and I was 30 to 35 years old...most of the others were in their 60s or older. But I think this is reflective of the fact that retirees have more free time to be involved in such activities. But if you are moving to a new area, getting involved in volunteer work is a great way to meet people.

Brilliant!

After being on the BoD for a couple of not for profits that mainly rely on volunteers your description hit the nail on the head.


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

Dogwood
11-28-2015, 02:40
"Volunteers who are Baby Boomers and the "greatest generation" before them are literally and figuratively a dying breed not being replaced one-to-one or even close to that. That's a fact, no need to debate it. But are there any practical ideas at our cyber campfire for improving that situation?"

1) If we're to assume Bonk is correct in that a small percentage of the people do the vast majority of volunteering IDENTFY WHO and WHERE and Under What CIRCUMSTANCES define those volunteers or the act of volunteering. This can help us tap into or enlist those who tend to volunteer. It is NOT just RETIRED FOLKS that volunteer!

I disagree with those that say it is only retired empty nesters that do the brunt of volunteering in general. When I look at those currently involved in longer term volunteering commitments who are retired they didn't always jump directly into these longer term commitments. Only after positive fun enriching logistically easier short term volunteering while furthering altruistic, self-sacrificing, empathetic team oriented traits in these volunteers where all had a say and where a volunteer's personal skills/traits were assessed and attempted to be aligned with tasks needed to be completed by savvy PEOPLE MANAGERS did they step up to longer term commitments. When folks of all ages INTIMATELY KNOW and SEE and FEEL they can make a positive difference they can be inspired to step up into that role. It is NOT just a matter of younger volunteers getting older with so called more "free time." The short termers were DEVELOPED by organizations into longer term commitment volunteers who OFTEN widened their volunteering efforts to other causes.

I disagree that < 30 yr olds are entirely self absorbed or all(most?) have a sense of entitlement. I observe segments of youth in the U.S. and abroad that commit not only to short term self sacrifice but also long term WHEN THEY FEEL A SENSE OF BELONGING. It's easier when altruistic, self-sacrificing, and empathetic traits have been cultivated from an early age. What categorizes these people?
a. those associated with organized religion usually have a strong sense of self sacrifice. Hence, many volunteers not only in the U.S. but also globally come from religious back rounds.
b. those involved in civic/community, fraternal, non-profit, etc organizations ie; Boy/Girl Scouts, Elks Club, Rotary, 4-H, AARP, Kiwanis, Lions Club, Fraternal Order of Police, College/University Fraternities/Sorrorities, 501 C(3)'s, NORML etc

Some other areas would seek enlisting help from:
1) Corporations! They often have vast resources at there disposal. It makes sense to enlist assistance from companies that would benefit from having their biz associated with community outreach. REI, Outdoor Gear Co's, Sunglasses, Chemical Co(Insect Repellent), RUNNING Shoe Co's, Grocery Store Chains, Fast Food Chains, Alcohol Co's, etc
2) Hunting and Fishing Organizations. NPS does it EFFECTIVELY.
3) Chambers of Commerce(near trail towns)
4) Equestrians and associated Orgs
5) Bicycling Co's and associated Orgs(well done cooperation on the AZT and CT!)
6) Organized Campground Associations such s KOA, etc.
7) Environmentally conscious groups
8) Hardware Stores (Home Depot, Lowes, ACE, etc
9) Landscaping Companies
10) Wildlife Orgs

If Trail Clubs and develop ties with these entities might make a trail maintenance MUCH easier?

Take some kids out on a hike, on a bike, camp in the yard, to the local Nature Center, Arboretum, Aquarium, build a responsible small campfire and roast some marshmallows, teach a kid about clouds or the weather, go stomp in some puddles JOYOUSLY with some kids letting all know IT IS OK, take a kid fishing, go climb a tree with kids, start community/cul de sac garden(maybe in your own backyard?), grow something with someone, etc.


It's my contention IF each one of us on WB just does one of these for our community for our youth it's likelier these kids will get older and be more prone to being better balanced as adults, happier, more connected to Nature, and maybe, just maybe be more likely to volunteer and respect others more. We will be teaching kids to embrace a LIFE more fulfilled.

Dogwood
11-28-2015, 13:19
11) Celebrities. YES, celebrities, of many types, whether they be involved in the Entertainment Industry(Producers, Directors, Actors/Actresses, Musicians, News Announcers, etc), Professional Sports/Olympic and Sponsored Athletes, Biz Leaders, etc can be GREAT allies. Before some of you get bent out of shape assuming Trail Clubs don't have " Hollywood insider" connections consider ON THE AT ALONE I've met and considerately shared with ALL these types of professionals. Some were born, live, or grew up in the Appalachian Mountains with these mountains still deeply cherished in their souls. YES, some of these categorized people can and do camp, hike, etc. Personally I've met two Academy Award Winners, Grammy Winners, and a Emmy Winner, major high net worth Biz Leaders, and Olympic and Professional Athletes while backpacking. Fostering respectful relationships with individuals like these can lead to GREAT trail awareness and support!


Consider, these individuals and groups have great resources including a platform that can be vocally far reaching and inspiring to a call for volunteering action! It's not just about money but it's easy to see how financial contributions can easily translate to more boots on the ground trail maintenance, conservation, and preservation.

When we invest ourselves into developing environmental responsibility and connections we Nature in children it can pay off handsomely as in just one of many positive examples Edward Norton's case.
http://blog.nature.org/conservancy/2013/05/06/dialogues-on-the-environment-qa-with-edward-norton/

soilman
11-28-2015, 19:59
I agree with you Dogwood that most retirees who volunteer don't just decide one day to volunteer. They have lived a life of service and citizenship and continue into their golden years. I think that people regardless of age who have a view that extends beyond their self are more likely to volunteer. I used to be concerned about the future of the AT because it seemed like most trail maintainers were AARP members. One positive that may result from the recent publicity from AWITW and increased popularity of thru hiking the AT is that more people will be exposed to the trail. That means there is a larger pool of potential volunteers.

coach lou
11-28-2015, 20:28
32809

Scouts camped near our AT relo in Harriman Park, Bob fuller, our PR man....explains what is going on.

32810

On Sunday they came out in Patrols and helped build an AT relocation.


Some will work again. Some won't. Some will need an Eagle project.

Most of our crew are old white guys, yea.....we all have tall tales to tell. We still like to get out, this gets us out, but we want to contribute to the greater good now....it is much more obvious at our vintage.

Rafe....maybe that cutie that helped with the waterbars will take up trail work!!!!