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PackHorse
12-01-2015, 07:39
I have been curious.... So much information/education is traded here on WB. Those of you that have thru hiked, how prepared are those starting out in Springer? Have most people attempting a thru been on WB (or other sites) and are they pretty well prepared? Or when your leaving the parking lot do you see those that are obviously not ready.

Linda

garlic08
12-01-2015, 08:18
I can only contribute to your second question. I think most AT hikers have not been on WB, and many, including me at the time of my AT hike, have never even heard of it. I never heard or saw any mention of WB while actually on the AT, even though I met a few of the well-known people who post here. (Afterwards, at home in Colorado, a friend mentioned it and I thought I'd check it out.)

I saw a wide mixture of experience on the AT. One day on a challenging section of trail, I saw one hiker near panic and the next person I saw displayed obvious confidence, competence, and quiet enjoyment.

A friend warned me I'd see just about everything on the AT, and he was right. I even met a prostitute (trailname "Quickie" of course).

colorado_rob
12-01-2015, 09:13
I can only contribute to your second question. I think most AT hikers have not been on WB, and many, including me at the time of my AT hike, have never even heard of it. I never heard or saw any mention of WB while actually on the AT, even though I met a few of the well-known people who post here. (Afterwards, at home in Colorado, a friend mentioned it and I thought I'd check it out.)

I saw a wide mixture of experience on the AT. One day on a challenging section of trail, I saw one hiker near panic and the next person I saw displayed obvious confidence, competence, and quiet enjoyment.

A friend warned me I'd see just about everything on the AT, and he was right. I even met a prostitute (trailname "Quickie" of course).Agree entirely, this was my experience: Nearly zero WBers on the trail, which surprised me. I met one single person at a camp who, after some various discussions, figured out I was a fellow WBer and actually "made" me (who I was on here).

Huge experience range, from seasoned long-distance veterans to hiking 1st timers. It was especially cool seeing the hiking rookies quickly learning the ropes to actually start being comfortable and enjoying themselves and a significant percentage of these fine folks making it a long way on the trail, some of course making it all the way.

You sure meet all types; my favorite was an ex convict who also had open warrants in two states and he was "bragging" about it, including comments that when he passed through NJ and NY he would not be making any town stops....

bigcranky
12-01-2015, 09:42
My partner and I hiked the Georgia section in March a couple of times, once in each direction, so we saw a lot of beginning thru-hikers. We met one person who was on Whiteblaze. Some of the beginning thru-hikers were well-prepared (including the guy from WB), but most were not. There were a lot of VERY large packs, and a fair amount of anxiety, but the hikers helped each other for the most part.

Coffee
12-01-2015, 09:48
Over nearly 3 years and almost 2500 miles of hiking, I've only met two WBers on trail (actually not on trail but in trail towns and neither was on the AT).

dbright
12-01-2015, 09:48
If you look at the Thru Hiker list on WB you will see less than 200 people have registered a start date for there thru hike in 2016. That is not many compared to the number of thru hikers each year.

PackHorse
12-01-2015, 09:51
So has the question ever been asked... What percentage of hikers leaving Springer are well prepared (gear wise)? And how much does that increase the odds of success? Is a person 2 or 3 times as likely to succeed? And the opposite would be true as well, poor performing gear without funds to replace it would be a big handicap. Or does the "trail provide"? ; ) ( I guess it did for "Quickie")

mountain squid
12-01-2015, 09:53
From my observations over the last 10 years, many hikers are not well-prepared and very few are from WhiteBlaze. This year, out of 724 total hikers (443 planning to hike to Katahdin), only 11 were from WB. Check out my 'observations (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/14493-observations-from-fs42-(advice-for-first-week-on-trail))' thread for more stats and observations.

(The WB stats are probably somewhat skewed. I typically don't ask if someone is on WB unless I recognize their username/trailname and if they don't recognize mine the topic doesn't arise. I reckon there are a few more than identified each year but probably not by much.)

See you on the trail,
mt squid

maintenance videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/mountainsquid04/videos)
how to hike (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?73587-how-to-hike)

rafe
12-01-2015, 10:10
I've met very few WBers on the trail. I've met a few at hiker gatherings and work parties. I met one working at Shaws in Monson. But it's hard to know just from trail names, and I don't always get those either. I've run into a couple of hikers from the old AT-L listserv as well.

Slo-go'en
12-01-2015, 10:39
Whenever I refer to WB on the trail to a group of hikers, they all seem to know what I'm talking about. They may not be active users, but know of, or have visited the site. I don't often get back blank stares.

As for how many are ill prepared, I think it's more a matter of many of them really not knowing what their getting into. Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.

garlic08
12-01-2015, 10:49
...Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.

Yeah, learning from the internet would be like reading a book about swimming and jumping in the water. Especially if the book has contradictory advice, and eleven different ways of doing it from ten different people.

PackHorse
12-01-2015, 11:29
As for how many are ill prepared, I think it's more a matter of many of them really not knowing that their getting into. Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.The AT - It has it's ups and downs...

That would be the next "level" of preparedness. .. skill in using the gear and knowing what their getting in to. I would think the third level is the mental fortitude do complete it. But those are things you can't tell immediately by looking at someone.
I guess my example would be... I can tell by the tack on a horse and the wear on the persons half chaps if I should be concerned about their safety on the trail. Usually pans out.
Just wondered if most show up prepared (by doing research here or otherwise about gear that performs well), or if at the "starting line" you can pick out who will probably complete the journey. I'm sure the first night... who sets up camp well, settles in, knows their equipment is quite telling.
I think there are stories out there, about the Katz's, that we don't hear.

Just Bill
12-01-2015, 11:40
Whenever I refer to WB on the trail to a group of hikers, they all seem to know what I'm talking about. They may not be active users, but know of, or have visited the site. I don't often get back blank stares.

As for how many are ill prepared, I think it's more a matter of many of them really not knowing that their getting into. Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.

I'd concur that many know what WB is, out of curiosity I ask here and there. As mentioned by other- screen names, names, and trail names don't always match nor would I know Slo-go'en unless he said "Hey I'm Slo-go'en". I met Praha4 (WB name) who actually goes by Florida Mike on the Long Trail. And of course I met several folks at Harriman and have met other folks through WB.

Of the older folks, many simply don't know and to be honest aren't big internet folks in general so that's to be expected.
Younger folks display looks that range from horribly uncomfortable, general distaste, and embarrassment. Maybe something to think about perhaps when debating generational issues and such... Not that WB's public relations campaign is anyone's concern I get the feeling it's not a real popular place amongst many hikers, which is too bad, as there is much to learn and many opportunities to share.

From the front page-
"There are currently 615 users online (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/online.php). 85 members and 530 guests"
So applying a great generalization I think is true- the vast majority of "WB'ers" don't actually have accounts.
And as we all know some of us that do post more than we should. :o

Point being- There are lots who use this site, but may not participate in it. There are a few of us who participate the hell out of it, lol.
Course I have my actual face an my actual name- most don't. Of the WB'ers I could recognize in person, I'd have to say I'd only know more than a handful of you from seeing your face on Facebook or something else- not from this site.
I've met about a few dozen folks who knew me.
Being lurkers, or even rare posters there was no way for me to know them.

As far as being prepared... Two things that still surprise me;
How vastly unprepared/inexperience folks are who take on any hike of, of any length, on the AT in general.
How amazingly welcoming and easy it is for people to do that on the AT in general.

I can't think of another trail that this contrast would be possible.
That's not a complaint, just a shock to someone who learned a bit more traditionally. I actually find it pretty amazing.

rafe
12-01-2015, 11:48
Just wondered if most show up prepared (by doing research here or otherwise about gear that performs well), or if at the "starting line" you can pick out who will probably complete the journey. I'm sure the first night... who sets up camp well, settles in, knows their equipment is quite telling.

Actually, it's not at all like that. Some will make it, some won't, but prior backpacking experience has surprisingly little to do with odds of success. It has more to do with one's ability to tune out discomfort, pain, dirt, drudgery, boredom, loneliness, etc. It has lots to do with one's ability to derive pleasure, recreation, meaning, enrichment, connection, etc. in any possible situation. Living for the moment, as they say.

It's a mind game, in other words. I was amazed at how little it had to do with mastery of outdoor skills or prior backpacking experience.

dudeijuststarted
12-01-2015, 12:18
IMO being prepared gear-wise doesn't make or break a thru hike. There are so many resources for pack shakedowns in the first few days (hostels, AT veterans) that blaming gear is a cop-out. Mountain Crossings is within a few days walk from the start and someone who really wants to succeed will take a shuttle there early if need be. I have definitely been in shuttles with people who were quitting coming off of approach trail.

The AT is no-joke difficult. You gotta want it.

PackHorse
12-01-2015, 12:18
Actually, it's not at all like that. Some will make it, some won't, but prior backpacking experience has surprisingly little to do with odds of success. It has more to do with one's ability to tune out discomfort, pain, dirt, drudgery, boredom, loneliness, etc. It has lots to do with one's ability to derive pleasure, recreation, meaning, enrichment, connection, etc. in any possible situation. Living for the moment, as they say.

It's a mind game, in other words. I was amazed at how little it had to do with mastery of outdoor skills or prior backpacking experience.

I guess that is what I was asking. That is so surprising to me, I wouldn't have expected it.

Lone Wolf
12-01-2015, 12:23
So has the question ever been asked... What percentage of hikers leaving Springer are well prepared (gear wise)? And how much does that increase the odds of success? Is a person 2 or 3 times as likely to succeed? And the opposite would be true as well, poor performing gear without funds to replace it would be a big handicap. Or does the "trail provide"? ; ) ( I guess it did for "Quickie")

proper gear, training, experience, planning does not increase chances of success. it's a mind game

Just Bill
12-01-2015, 12:31
As for how many are ill prepared, I think it's more a matter of many of them really not knowing that their getting into. Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.The AT - It has it's ups and downs...

That would be the next "level" of preparedness. .. skill in using the gear and knowing what their getting in to. I would think the third level is the mental fortitude do complete it. But those are things you can't tell immediately by looking at someone.
I guess my example would be... I can tell by the tack on a horse and the wear on the persons half chaps if I should be concerned about their safety on the trail. Usually pans out.
Just wondered if most show up prepared (by doing research here or otherwise about gear that performs well), or if at the "starting line" you can pick out who will probably complete the journey. I'm sure the first night... who sets up camp well, settles in, knows their equipment is quite telling.
I think there are stories out there, about the Katz's, that we don't hear.

Yes and mainly no.
I was a superintendent for some time, hiring and firing carpenters and often used the tool trick to eyeball somebody.
Course I switched jobs at one point and took the change to get a new set of pouches. I winked at one of the foreman giving my shiney new pouches the eye and by the end of the week I was the foreman.

So gear ain't it really, and often enough a hiker will take the start of a hike to replace or change out to new gear.
Using it and how you carry yourself can't be hidden though.

Andrew Skurka and Jennifer Pharr Davis... are pretty well known these days.
Both were total newbie dumasses likely to be laughed off the trail given the opportunity on their first AT hike.

Folks who should finish don't, folks who shouldn't start finish. While I can't think of any trail (maybe the Camino I guess) that could claim the same- the AT is unique in that any jackass can finish, and any rockstar can fail.

Most of the Katz's are gone in a week or so- no story to tell really. Course almost half of the hikers are gone in a month regardless.
Of those that finish the AT in particular, I'd have to agree that mental skills far exceed any technical abilities.

That said, put many of those folks on an unblazed trail with a map and compass...
Take away the data books, apps, shelters and town stops every 3-5 days...
Cut them off from the community of maintainers, hikers and magicians helping them out...

And they might still make it... but probably not. And probably shouldn't try.

The AT isn't that type of trail, which is bad for those who fool themselves into thinking it is.
And great for those without the background to tackle anything else.
Not all of us grew up in scouts, camping with family, or with similar opportunities.
The AT presents a unique opportunity for people to participate in what otherwise would be impossible.

Be happy folks show up at all. Don't look down on any who do.
We all need a first step, even if we can agree it's occasionally a foolish leap.
The AT is a good place for it, some need to leap, the worst that can happen is they die.

"Few places in this world are more dangerous than home. Fear not, therefore, to try the mountain-passes. They will kill care, save you from deadly apathy, set you free, and call forth every faculty into vigorous, enthusiastic action. Even the sick should try these so-called dangerous passes, because for every unfortunate they kill, they cure a thousand." John Muir

rafe
12-01-2015, 12:32
I guess that is what I was asking. That is so surprising to me, I wouldn't have expected it.

Surprised the heck out me too. I met a father and two sons, first day on the trail, assembling and firing up their (Whisperlite) camp stoves for the very first time. I don't know if they made it to Katahdin but I know they were still on the trail two months later.

And at the same time -- I know of several seasoned hikers who quit thru hikes half, two-thirds, or three-quarters of the way through. Myself included.

I'll allow as how there may be a correlation between experience and success -- if that experience includes plenty of tough hiking in prolonged crappy conditions. Hard to imagine what a thru hike is like until you've tried it.

PackHorse
12-01-2015, 12:33
As far as being prepared... Two things that still surprise me;
How vastly unprepared/inexperience folks are who take on any hike of, of any length, on the AT in general.
How amazingly welcoming and easy it is for people to do that on the AT in general.

I can't think of another trail that this contrast would be possible.
That's not a complaint, just a shock to someone who learned a bit more traditionally. I actually find it pretty amazing.

Again... amazing!

So this totally turns my theory upside down...
First, you need the mental fortitude.
Second, add a little gear and a few skills ( or get both along the way! )

rafe
12-01-2015, 12:54
Staying injury-free and healthy is paramount. Common sense is important. Pushing too hard can backfire in all sorts of ways.

All it takes is one serious mis-step (out of five million or more) to end a thru-hike. Or a few hours walking in cold rain to bring on a cold or flu that knocks you off the trail for several days.

Common sense means knowing when to slow down, take a break, call it a day, or take cover and let the foul weather pass.

I do a lot of hiking in the White Mountains. I feel bad for thru hikers who've had to walk in those mountains in bad weather, and almost all of them will, at some point. A double-whammy: the trail is more treacherous, and you're missing fantastic views. But what to do? Thru hikers don't usually get to wait out bad weather, not if they want to make it to Maine on time.

PackHorse
12-01-2015, 13:32
So then the next question....
Since a lot of the hike is mental, do you then think there is a higher success rate with multi hikers ( with friend, spouse, or partnered up on the trail ) than hiking alone? That would help offset the boredom, loneliness, mental aspects.

rafe
12-01-2015, 13:39
So then the next question....
Since a lot of the hike is mental, do you then think there is a higher success rate with multi hikers ( with friend, spouse, or partnered up on the trail ) than hiking alone? That would help offset the boredom, loneliness, mental aspects.

It can work but they need to have a really strong, committed relationship. Even then they will spend much of the day walking alone.

colorado_rob
12-01-2015, 13:59
So then the next question....
Since a lot of the hike is mental, do you then think there is a higher success rate with multi hikers ( with friend, spouse, or partnered up on the trail ) than hiking alone? That would help offset the boredom, loneliness, mental aspects.I would think there would have to be. My wife met me for three 100-ish mile sections (smokies+a little, whites and 100-mile wilderness/Katahdin). those times were GOLDEN and kept me going in anticipation. I also greatly benefitted from developing an excellent long-term friendship with a guy, and we formed an ad-hoc mutual support "group" through one of the mentally toughest part (MD/PA).

Slo-go'en
12-01-2015, 14:36
I'll allow as how there may be a correlation between experience and success -- if that experience includes plenty of tough hiking in prolonged crappy conditions. Hard to imagine what a thru hike is like until you've tried it.

I think having even a little prior experience helps a lot. I've done some informal surveys asking the people who are still around me a month after leaving Springer if they had prior experience and nearly all of them say yes.

That doesn't mean all those with prior experience will finish or that all those without experience will quit in short order, but having some experience is a plus.

Datto
12-01-2015, 14:58
That was one of the really interesting parts of an AT thru-hike for me -- meeting such a wide variety of people on the Trail. Pretty much every day. If you were open to it, that was just part of the experience that made an AT thru-hike so enjoyable. You couldn't have asked for more of a microcosm of Society than what I had experenced on my AT thru-hike. Just lots of fun running into say hairdressers, history teachers, carpenters, insurance executives, people just out of the military, college students who had just graduated, people just out of high school, retired guys, Army generals, .org people (girl scout executive was one of the most interesting). people from Microsoft, people out of the Peace Corps, someone who taught English in Spain, a guy who was a taxi driver, a guy who was a bicycle delivery person in New York City, on and on.

There isn't any formula of who decides to show up to the Trail at Springer. That's part of the beauty of an AT thru-hike experience.


Datto

Dogwood
12-01-2015, 16:19
Hikers embarking on a AT thru-hike NOBO tend to be inexperienced raw LD hikers in the LD hiking community. They are largely wannabees.


Whenever I refer to WB on the trail to a group of hikers, (most) seem to know what I'm talking about. They may not be active users, but know of, or have visited the site. I don't often get back blank stares.

As for how many are ill prepared, I think it's more a matter of many of them really not knowing what their getting into. Internet learning only goes so far. You either adapt or go home.


Yeah, learning from the internet would be like reading a book about swimming and jumping in the water. Especially if the book has contradictory advice, and eleven different ways of doing it from ten different people.

All this especially Slo-goen's underlined comment.


proper gear, training, experience, planning does not increase chances of success. it's a mind game

I agree with LW in that it's more of a emotional and psychological game that contributes to LD hiking completions. But proper gear, training, experience, and planning can contribute to LD hiking completions too. Part of training and experience also includes training for and experiencing the mental challenges and rising to to the occasion mentally to joyfully push through to your goals.

Entirely too much imbalanced emphasis is placed on gear for completing a thru-hike by Newbies when it is the mental and physical aspects that takes most off their LD hikes NOT GEAR!

Dogwood
12-01-2015, 16:50
So then the next question....
Since a lot of the hike is mental, do you then think there is a higher success rate with multi hikers ( with friend, spouse, or partnered up on the trail ) than hiking alone? That would help offset the boredom, loneliness, mental aspects.

Hiking with others can work both ways. It can be a hindrance or a way to push through mentally by inspiring each other. Many times I've seen one or more in a hiking group quit as result of being mentally dragged down by others in the group with poor emotional and physical dispositions. Then, sometimes problems often arise simply because people in a group wish to hike logistically different or have a different hiking philosophy which CAN contribute to an atmosphere where individual's' emotional, mental, physical, and energy levels are being taxed by those conflicts. FWIW, I choose who I hike with and who I allow to significantly influence me, very carefully after much thought about these aspects. I advise YOU do the same!

FWIW, consider a wider range of outlets to avoid boredom, loneliness, and mentally being dragged down that DO NOT ALWAYS have you relying on a group. :banana

Don H
12-01-2015, 17:03
I've been told there are two types of people who complete a thru-hike; people who love the trail, there's no place else they'd rather be than on the trail hiking day after day for months at a time. And then there's stubborn people. In the beginning I was the former, towards the end I was the latter.

rafe
12-01-2015, 17:50
I've been told there are two types of people who complete a thru-hike; people who love the trail, there's no place else they'd rather be than on the trail hiking day after day for months at a time. And then there's stubborn people. In the beginning I was the former, towards the end I was the latter.

Or maybe it's more about commitment than about love. ;)

rafe
12-01-2015, 18:24
That doesn't mean all those with prior experience will finish or that all those without experience will quit in short order, but having some experience is a plus.

I think what it means is that if you bail, it won't be in the first few days because you had no clue about surviving a night or two in the woods or what it means to do 3000 vertical feet per day.

But then, any newb who makes it out of Georgia (or to Monson, as a SOBO) already has more experience than most folks who show up to try. None of it is rocket science, a smart person can learn the routine in short order -- assuming money's no object, no injuries, etc.

Datto
12-01-2015, 21:48
It was very important, for me anyhow, that my aperture opened up quickly while on the Trail during my AT thru-hike. That allowed me to enjoy many of the simple pleasures of the Appalachian Trail and to begin early to appreciate the gift that it became.

Much of my time prior to starting my AT thru-hike was so intently focused and very, very rigid in scope and experience (my lost decade) -- I took the year prior to starting my AT thru-hike to hike most of the name brand trails in the Midwest, mainly on weekends, sometimes for a week or more at a time. That certainly helped me to become more trail-ready for a thru-hike (dealing with the incessent rain for instance since many of my pre-AT hikes were in the rail and snow). I had hiked on the AT north of Damascus prior to my AT thru-hike but really, my July hike of the Knobstone Trail in souhern Indiana was as good of a preparation as I could have asked for prior to starting my AT thru-hike. There was also a 10+ mile long loop trail near where I lived (Salamonie Trail) that I hiked with my backpack four days every week after work. That too helped to alleviate all the rigidity I was running into at work at the time prior to my AT thru-hike.

Simple pleasures enjoyed on my AT thru-hike -- for example, just plain quiet, the beauty of the natural landscape, the beauty and intricacy of the tiny landscape, slower more thoughtful conversations with other AT thru-hikers rather than the usual speed-demon racing conversations while at work, the intention to think about a particular subject for an entire day or instead, to choose to not think about anything at all except what was portrayed to me along the Trail.

I can't think of a time when I was ever bored while on my AT thru-hike. There was always something interesting going on every day. Something really funny happened most days. Sometimes there was tragedy that still bothers me today.

One of the best decisions I had made for my AT thru-hike was to write an on-line trail journal and to write an entry for every day. It became such an encapsulaton of thoughts and symbolism and experiences encountered each day along the Trail. I've come to appreciate and enjoy those individual days again when I've re-read my AT trail journal every year since.


Datto

CarlZ993
12-02-2015, 00:12
You'll see hikers that are clueless starting out on the trail. The worse I saw was two 'Monks' that started the same day I did - 3/21/13 (they dressed like Monks... don't know if they were or not; they talked about being on a 'Pilgrimage' on the AT). One had a wicker backpack. It was quite small. I was impressed that he was able to get all his gear inside. The other guy also had a small traditional-type pack as well. I stopped early on Day 1 & grabbed a spot in the shelter (Hawk Mountain Shelter). They later pulled into the camp area much later & set up their Walmart-style tent. The heavier of the two was complaining about how hard the hike was (I thought it was pretty easy... just cold).

What I learned the next morning was astonishing. One of them had sat by the fire all night long to stay warm. The other was sleeping on the floor near the foot of the shelter underneath a mylar blanket. The guy by the fire hadn't slept all night (too cold). They didn't have a sleeping bag (they had a thin mylar blanket), sleeping pad, didn't have any gloves or knit caps, didn't have a stove, and didn't have any food. When pressed, they said that they would accept food from fellow hikers if they offered them food. They were completely unprepared for what they had embarked on.

I told the fire-sitter that they could get all the gear they needed on day 3 @ Neels Gap. I later learned that they got off the trail on day 3. Don't know if they made it to Neels Gap.

Note: I did a YouTube Video of my hike. These two guys were on the second picture of my video (in front of the Hiker Hostel). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RweJkZbap8A

Don H
12-02-2015, 09:24
Great video Zman!

JaketheFake
12-02-2015, 11:57
This is a great thread. It started with the pontification of whether or not there is a correlation between being active on white blazes and actually finishing a thru hike exists. I was amazed at how few people bumped into other white places people on the trail. It's also amazing what a wide spectrum of "being prepared" means to people. It seems as if there are new people trying something and have done research and prepared ( myself will be included in that category) and then there are the wicker basket carrying monks that are just plain clueless. That's a wide spectrum of difference in my opinion. Although I will be starting the trail as an experienced long-distance hiker I have much much experience in outdoorsman trip I can't find him someone trying to do this hike without having outdoor knowledge. I intend to rely on my outdoor knowledge to circumvent my lack of experience in long distance hiking anybody have any thoughts on whether or not this is a pipe dream or not?

Finally here's a thought . Does white blazes offer any type of stickers for cars or patches for clothing or even like hats? I participate in a bow hunting site here in Texas and they sell stickers and it's very cool when other members see the stickers on other members cars . Typically they "shout out" on the site that they saw somebody in whatever town they were in as in... "Hey I saw a black F1 50 in Crockett Texas with a bow hunter sticker who are you?" Just a random thought.

rafe
12-02-2015, 12:12
I met a Trappist monk on the Long Trail summer before last, going the other way. He had no pack or other gear, I assume he was just out for a stroll, but he was a good two or three miles uphill from the nearest trailhead.

Berserker
12-02-2015, 13:42
In almost 1500 miles of section hiking I've only met maybe 2 or 3 people that use WB...and I've met a lot of people section hiking. I'm thinking the majority of the people on here cyber hike :-?.