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Dogwood
12-03-2015, 16:13
I response to Naturlred's thread, felt I had to offer this.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/icons/icon7.png What's the #1 thing stopping you
What is the #1 thing stopping you from going to that place you would go if you could anywhere?
Is is money, physical health, family, children, lack of knowledge, work, etc.?

I read some of the destinations on the question posted,"where would you go if you could anywhere," and I am surprised that some destinations are in the US and not all that expensive to travel to. So I just wonder, what is stopping you?

Just curious...




Many responses to Naturlred's question cited money, time, family and biz commitments as the cause for not living the LIFE they fully desired. I submit it is likely unquestionably adhering to cultural and societal norms as matter of unconscionable habit that MAY actually be the root cause of what's stopping you, AND YOUR FAMILY, from living more fulfilling lives.

This thread is NOT intended to endlessly opine on the perceived problems BUT to ultimately move forward beyond them! This thread is intended for exploring solutions!

First though, I submit it is a culture of waste, inefficiency, unbridled consumerism, materialism, shopping as the national past time, disconnection from Nature, and prioritized connection to money, hence enslaving unnecessary debt, that clutters up our lives. These accepted and unquestionably embraced norms have far reaching negative impacts on a national and global level that are rarely deeply explored from inside and by this culture.

I ask, COULD applying an edited lifestyle, such as applying an edited hiking style, pursuing less accumulation of "stuff", living in less space, living more frugally and more consciously, and more soberly questioning our choices, preferably outside the cultural and societal norms, lead to MORE money, MORE time, MORE happiness, and MORE of what we soberly desire for LIFE. By QUESTIONING the cultural drivers that impel us to fall into a lock step marching to the loudly beaten drum "MORE and FASTER IS ALWAYS BETTER" CAN WE FIND SOLUTIONS to MORE freedom, self determination, and, while at the same time, maybe, just maybe be conscious of a larger whole?

https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_less_stuff_more_happiness?language=en# t-250338

Uriah
12-03-2015, 16:40
This thread is NOT intended to endlessly opine on the perceived problems BUT to ultimately move forward beyond them! This thread is intended for exploring solutions! First though, I submit it is a culture of waste, inefficiency, unbridled consumerism, materialism, shopping as the national past time, disconnection from Nature, and prioritized connection to money, hence enslaving unnecessary debt, that clutters up our lives. These accepted and unquestionably embraced norms have far reaching negative impacts on a national and global level that are rarely deeply explored from inside and by this culture.

I ask, COULD applying an edited lifestyle, such as applying an edited hiking style, pursuing less accumulation of "stuff", living in less space, living more frugally and more consciously, and more soberly questioning our choices, preferably outside the cultural and societal norms, lead to MORE money, MORE time, MORE happiness, and MORE of what we soberly desire for LIFE. By QUESTIONING the cultural drivers that impel us to fall into a lock step marching to the loudly beaten drum "MORE and FASTER IS ALWAYS BETTER" CAN WE FIND SOLUTIONS to MORE freedom, self determination, and, while at the same time, maybe, just maybe be conscious of a larger whole?
https://www.ted.com/talks/graham_hill_less_stuff_more_happiness?language=en# t-250338

Could it? Of course. (I'm living proof, and I believe Tipi Walter and others here are.) An edited lifestyle choice is merely making small (or large) sacrifices in order to achieve our deeper desires. From a very young age I wished for experiences over goods. Goods, I'd learn in time, were no good to me! (That is, outside of a few essentials and perhaps a few niceties...books, namely.) To this day I can fit everything I "own" onto my 650 motorcycle, so I'm always ready to take advantage of opportunities, or create them, since there's little holding me back. I can park the bike at a friend's place when traveling, since it's not all that big.

Of the numerous younger American thru-hikers and travelers I've crossed paths with on these travels, most know not to fall for that facade that is the American Dream (in a nutshell: work, build a bank account, buy, impress [or try to], build credit, incur debt, work, retire...right around the time you're too tired to do much). It all sounds like more of a nightmare to me than a dream. They call it a dream, because you'd have to be asleep to believe in it! And yet I can live comfortably within my means because there's so much excess in this country. At this juncture, we are the freest humans to have ever walked the planet, and yet we shackle ourselves. No thanks!

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 01:06
Thx Uriah.

Several studies have concluded humans are happier overall through experiences rather than an endless pursuit of "stuff" which is the opposite of how we are "miss-educated."

You've been listening to George Carlin I see. "They call it a dream, because you'd have to be asleep to believe in it!":)

Mtsman
12-04-2015, 02:35
Yes Dogwood, this idea is actually happening and starting small movements as we speak.

Here are just some of the movements to cut down:

The Tiny House Movement - http://thetinylife.com/what-is-the-tiny-house-movement/
The Minimalist Movement - http://www.custommade.com/blog/minimalist-movement/
The Voluntary Simplicity Movement - http://www.choosingvoluntarysimplicity.com/
etc etc

Yes they are all small movements (literally and figuratively) but lets cross our fingers that it will actually catch on with the future generations. Just smaller houses alone would be amazing. They don't have to be 2sqft x 2sqft like some of these but please, no more mc mansions!!

MuddyWaters
12-04-2015, 03:48
Be thankful the masses are stuck in a trap of their own making. There wouldnt be enough public land to go around if they werent.

Everyone that benefits in some way, can only do so via the expense of others.

archie
12-04-2015, 04:53
Many responses to Naturlred's question cited money, time, family and biz commitments as the cause for not living the LIFE they fully desired. I submit it is likely unquestionably adhering to cultural and societal norms as matter of unconscionable habit that MAY actually be the root cause of what's stopping you, AND YOUR FAMILY, from living more fulfilled lives.

Money ,time and family commitments would have been my answer had I answered in that thread. That does not mean those who answered that way are living unfulfilled lives or are guilty of " waste, inefficiency, unbridled consumerism, materialism, shopping". For me it simply means I have chosen a lifestyle that encompasses many things in an effort to achieve a balance. Balance of family, finance and my personal desires, such as hiking( or any other pastime). For me, hiking is currently my escape, my vacation, my release and my connection to nature. I feel that hiking gives balance to , and enhances my overall life. I dream of exotic hikes, and I will do some of them when the time is right. I will never do all of them.

What if I edited my life so I could hike everywhere I wanted? Any time I wanted? Would that be better? I think not. I have chosen my life and I am happy with it. I strive for a balance and hiking helps me achieve that. Where would the balance be if I edited my life to the point I could hike everywhere, all the time? I think then I would dream of stability and growing roots, the opposite of what hiking gives me.

I do agree with some of your points such as " disconnection from Nature, and prioritized connection to money, hence enslaving unnecessary debt, that clutters up our lives" but I feel ditching it all to wander the trails of ones mind would be just falling into another trap and would not provide a more fulfilling life at all. Seems it would do just the opposite. Societal needs and cultural norms evolve in humans to provide informal understandings that govern individuals' behavior in society. They are ever changing and reflect a society as a whole. They help provide stability and balance by giving members of a society a moral compass to follow. Without that, we would be lost.

That does not mean we do not control our own fate. For example you cite accumulation of "stuff" which leads to cluttered lives. I agree with that notion, but it goes both ways. Not accumulating, or editing it all away, could lead to instability and an inability to provide what truly is needed.

If I edited my life so I could hike all the time, going wherever I wanted, doing whatever I wanted I would be a hobo. And selfish. And I would be unhappy and unfulfilled. My wife and kids don't want to hike all the time. My wife wants be on a beach somewhere. I would not be happy if I did not provide her with a means and opportunity to do that. I am also certain hiking would no longer be what I wanted to do. What would be the point?

Conversely if I never hiked, only worked and consumed material things etc, I would be empty and unhappy. I would not have all that I gain from hiking. Things such as connection to nature, time to reflect, ability to distress and detach from that cluttered and material life and so much more I get out of it.

Balance is key grasshopper. Without it nothing is right.

garlic08
12-04-2015, 07:59
Another way to achieve goals is the Mr Money Mustache (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) way, "financial freedom through badassity." It's a great blog, iconoclastic at times. My wife and I read every issue, nodding and chuckling. If we had the internet thirty five years ago (and were talented writers and researchers, by the way), we could have written it. The hiking lifestyle helps one understand it, that's for sure.

To add to Mtsman's list, ever see the 100 thing challenge (http://guynameddave.com/about-the-100-thing-challenge/)?

rocketsocks
12-04-2015, 08:14
Another way to achieve goals is the Mr Money Mustache (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) way, "financial freedom through badassity." It's a great blog, iconoclastic at times. My wife and I read every issue, nodding and chuckling. If we had the internet thirty five years ago (and were talented writers and researchers, by the way), we could have written it. The hiking lifestyle helps one understand it, that's for sure.

To add to Mtsman's list, ever see the 100 thing challenge (http://guynameddave.com/about-the-100-thing-challenge/)?Thanks for the cool links Garlic, very interesting and practical...Bookmarked :sun

Traveler
12-04-2015, 08:36
There is no "one size fits all" approach to this issue. Some people are just out of school and have very little in their way to do a thru hike, others are older and have commitments they have made which have a high priority and may preclude walking out of life into a 5 month vacation. As pointed out, balance is important, which is why section and day hiking remain a means to completing long trails alongside a dedicated thru hike.

Pedaling Fool
12-04-2015, 08:42
Isn't life all about materialism? All animals are on a constant, never-ending hunt for materials, they will die without them. We are simply animals with an unusual brain that allows us to gather materials well beyond those of other animals. Even science confirms the world is materialistic. http://www.metanexus.net/essay/evolutionary-biology-meaning-life


Seems like people are searching for a new religion, because the old ones don't work any longer. http://www.drgaryschwartz.com/POST-MATERIALISM.html

Coffee
12-04-2015, 08:53
Mr Money Mustache has always resonated with me because my history is very similar to his and I have a nearly identical philosophy. Still, in my 20s and early 30s I accumulated a lot of unnecessary stuff, drove a ridiculously excessive and expensive truck, lived in a home way too large for me, etc. Despite the mistakes I've done well enough to afford to be able to hike as much as I want. I could hike full time if I chose to ignore family and didn't work at all. But I don't want to ignore family and there are aspects to my work that I enjoy especially in the years since I've been entirely independent. So to everything there must be a balance. Almost everyone can get by with less than they consume today, myself included. I have eliminated most waste but not all. I own a small home (own it, not "rent" it via a mortgage), but in a very expensive metro area. I sold my car, rented out my parking spot, and take public transit everywhere not because I cannot afford a car but because absence of that object creates more freedom. But yesterday I sat in a coffee shop reading for several hours consuming cappuccinos at $3.25 a pop because I enjoy that setting. I could have sat at my home office drinking coffee for 0.25 a cup or less but that would have detracted from my experience yesterday.

The most memorable vacation I ever took was between my 2nd and 3rd year of college ... A week backpacking in Yosemite ... And it cost under $100. I spent 50x times as much on a three week trip to the Alps in Sept... Epic scenery and very enjoyable but not as memorable as that Yosemite trip 23 years ago. Some of the best experiences are free or very cheap! Too many people correlate what they spend with enjoyment and that isn't always the case..

garlic08
12-04-2015, 09:21
...But yesterday I sat in a coffee shop reading for several hours consuming cappuccinos at $3.25 a pop because I enjoy that setting. I could have sat at my home office drinking coffee for 0.25 a cup or less but that would have detracted from my experience yesterday...

I started reading "Rich Dad Poor Dad" when it came out and didn't finish it, but one thing I took away from that book was that once you achieve financial freedom (it sounds like you have if you own your house) it's really OK to "reward" yourself once in a while! On my AT hike, my town food expenses exceeded my trail food expenses. So you bet, I rewarded myself with nice meals very often!

saltysack
12-04-2015, 09:43
This thread and its content really coincides with the documentary out "Racing Extinction". Curious who watched it and what you thought?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coffee
12-04-2015, 09:50
On my AT hike, my town food expenses exceeded my trail food expenses. So you bet, I rewarded myself with nice meals very often!

Regarding rewarding yourself, I used to think that a good way to do this on-trail was to stay in private rooms hotels or motels when available but all that did was remove me from the trail community and the wilderness I was there to enjoy. Not planning to stay in very many motels next year. Like you, my main indulgence will be town food expenses!

Water Rat
12-04-2015, 09:53
One does not have to completely do without in order to achieve their goals. Like everything else, it's all about balance. If you really want something, you will be willing to figure out how to make it happen and then you will follow through. Doesn't mean you will ALWAYS get that something, but you definitely will not achieve your goal if you don't make the effort to try to make it happen.

Yes, life is busy and EVERYONE has commitments (people, work, causes they are helping, etc) in life. That doesn't mean you can't work toward your goal at the same time as you are fulfilling your commitments. Commitments might be a hurdle on the way toward your goal, but if you really want to achieve that goal, you will still keep moving forward. Commitments don't have to stop you.

No money to go to that do that activity/see that place you have always wanted to see? Figure out a financial plan to make it happen, then put it to work.

No time because of family? That still doesn't have to stand in your way... It just means that you can't go do that whatever it is right now. That doesn't mean you have to completely stop thinking about/working toward your goal. Keep researching and planning in the meantime. Take smaller trips/classes that might enhance the larger trip on you will take on down the road.

No time because of work? Most of us do have to work. That doesn't mean we have to completely put plans on hold. Do smaller trips (day hikes, etc) and less expensive/less time consuming activities in the meantime.

The biggest thing stopping someone from doing something is usually the limits they have placed on themselves. There are obviously valid exceptions and this does not apply to everyone. Just because you have obligations, it does not mean you can't also work toward something you want. However, many people like instant gratification. When they don't get what they want it is easier to come up with an excuse for why they can't have that something, rather than toward their goal.

Like I said, there are valid reasons for not being able to instantly having your goal at this very moment... but, it doesn't mean you have to stop working toward your goal, or having experiences. The key is to balance the working toward your goal while still fulfilling your commitments. If someone really wants something, they will not let anything STOP them from reaching that goal. There might be setbacks/things keeping them from reaching that goal at this moment, but nothing will STOP that person.

TexasBob
12-04-2015, 10:16
Another way to achieve goals is the Mr Money Mustache (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) way, "financial freedom through badassity." It's a great blog, iconoclastic at times. My wife and I read every issue, nodding and chuckling.

Thanks for the link - it is great reading. Part of what he is saying is how people used to live before credit cards. Save the money first, then buy the item.

4eyedbuzzard
12-04-2015, 11:26
It is the same as if all these traps were buckled to a man's belt, and he could not move over the rough country where our lines are cast without dragging them — dragging his trap. He was a lucky fox that left his tail in the trap. The muskrat will gnaw his third leg off to be free. No wonder man has lost his elasticity. How often he is at a dead set!. . . One young man of my acquaintance, who has inherited some acres, told me that he thought he should live as I did, if he had the means. I would not have any one adopt my mode of living on any account; for, beside that before he has fairly learned it I may have found out another for myself, I desire that there may be as many different persons in the world as possible; but I would have each one be very careful to find out and pursue his own way, and not his father's or his mother's or his neighbor's instead. The youth may build or plant or sail, only let him not be hindered from doing that which he tells me he would like to do. It is by a mathematical point only that we are wise, as the sailor or the fugitive slave keeps the polestar in his eye; but that is sufficient guidance for all our life. We may not arrive at our port within a calculable period, but we would preserve the true course. - From Walden, H.D. Thoreau ...........

Just Bill
12-04-2015, 11:37
Discipline, goals, responsibilities, wants, needs.
In balance.

The only thing that I would add; some choose family some don't and which is a big fork in the road of life that shapes your goals.
The bothersome thing I see is that many who make the choice to have a family, automatically resign themselves to delay or set aside other things.

Like others I viewed it as an all or nothing proposition for nearly ten years of my life, while more difficult to responsibly change that, it is possible to regain the balance and happily enjoy both family and personal life.

Ultimately I came to realize that buckling down into imbalance was irresponsible to my wife and family.
I owe it to my wife to be the man she married, and I owe it to my children to be a balanced person.
Balanced parents raise balanced children.

Uriah
12-04-2015, 11:52
Isn't life all about materialism? All animals are on a constant, never-ending hunt for materials, they will die without them. We are simply animals with an unusual brain that allows us to gather materials well beyond those of other animals. Even science confirms the world is materialistic. http://www.metanexus.net/essay/evolutionary-biology-meaning-life Seems like people are searching for a new religion, because the old ones don't work any longer. http://www.drgaryschwartz.com/POST-MATERIALISM.html

And if we're to boil it down further, we too are (little more than) material. A life-form we call human, about to pass on our matter (our material) back to other life-forms in due time. Recycling, materially, otherwise known as reincarnation. Even all that we humans construct, our tidy little mess, will be recycled in due time.

"If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture—that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves." ~Edward Abbey

Pedaling Fool
12-04-2015, 14:51
And if we're to boil it down further, we too are (little more than) material. A life-form we call human, about to pass on our matter (our material) back to other life-forms in due time. Recycling, materially, otherwise known as reincarnation. Even all that we humans construct, our tidy little mess, will be recycled in due time.

"If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture—that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves." ~Edward Abbey
There you go. I don't see the problem:D

Carbo
12-04-2015, 15:08
When I follow my heart I feel better, it costs less, and is a good experience. When I follow my mind I get hung up on details, worry about the outcome, and it usually costs more.

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 15:58
Thanks for your comments respectful comments Archie.

"Money ,time and family commitments would have been my answer had I answered in that thread. That does not mean those who answered that way are living unfulfilled lives or are guilty of " waste, inefficiency, unbridled consumerism, materialism, shopping"...

I agree with you but it sure seems difficult to KNOW you are guilty of "waste, inefficiency, unbridled consumerism, materialism, and shopping" and even more so likely to escape these habits when being an unconscious adherent within this cultural system. No?

"What if I edited my life so I could hike everywhere I wanted? Any time I wanted? Would that be better? I think not. I have chosen my life and I am happy with it. I strive for a balance and hiking helps me achieve that. Where would the balance be if I edited my life to the point I could hike everywhere, all the time? I think then I would dream of stability and growing roots, the opposite of what hiking gives me."

Even though I linked Natrulred's thread to this thread I sincerely hope the impetus for LIVING AN EDITED LIFE is not SOLELY based on endlessly hiking/traveling although that lifestyle does work for some. The consequences of Living An Edited lifestyle are SO MUCH MORE encompassing than being able to hike. I would expect that easy to understand IF one entirely watched Graham Hill's TED talk.

"...I feel ditching it all to wander the trails of ones mind would be just falling into another trap and would not provide a more fulfilling life at all. Seems it would do just the opposite. Societal needs and cultural norms evolve in humans to provide informal understandings that govern individuals' behavior in society. They are ever changing and reflect a society as a whole. They help provide stability and balance by giving members of a society a moral compass to follow. Without that, we would be lost."

Could occur as you relate. My question about your societal "needs" and cultural "norms" is, "who exactly is it that is determining and defining for society these "needs" and "norms?" Seems like a small powerful wealthy elite is primarily doing the influencing rather than what we call society as a whole? Could there be in essence in all of us an INTERNAL "moral compass" that doesn't always require having to resort to a societies or culture's moral definition of what defines morality?

"That does not mean we do not control our own fate. For example you cite accumulation of "stuff" which leads to cluttered lives. I agree with that notion, but it goes both ways. Not accumulating, or editing it all away, could lead to instability and an inability to provide what truly is needed."

Again, agree with your last sentence in this paragraph, as so does Graham Hill IF we all watched and listened to his TED talk. Another question: "is your fate truly determined BY YOU in an uncompromised uninfluenced "FREE" way?....ESPECIALLY WHEN CONSIDERED FROM WITHIN THE SOCIETAL AND CULTURAL SYSTEM TO WHICH YOU ADHERE?

"Balance is key grasshopper. Without it nothing is right."

I hear balance touted often. Yet, when I observe more soberly OUTSIDE societal and cultural norms VERY MUCH is NOT balanced. What is often highly acclaimed has been gained or is maintained in a VERY UNBALANCED WAY. This is observed on a National, racial, economic, social, and individual scale. If we're stuck in narrow physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, societal/cultural environmental norms it's difficult to impossible to observe just how unbalanced the world really is. We are only patting ourselves on our own backs touting balance when we enjoy MUCH because we take advantages of imbalances, often at the expense of a larger whole.

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 16:24
Isn't life all about materialism? All animals are on a constant, never-ending hunt for materials, they will die without them. We are simply animals with an unusual brain that allows us to gather materials well beyond those of other animals. Even science confirms the world is materialistic. http://www.metanexus.net/essay/evolutionary-biology-meaning-life


Seems like people are searching for a new religion, because the old ones don't work any longer. http://www.drgaryschwartz.com/POST-MATERIALISM.html

Thanks for the links. I read and considered them. You usually provide good food for thought PF.

While material needs are a reality of life, I do NOT believe, NOR do I observe in humanity or in all the abundant LIFE kingdoms on the planet, a SOLE reliance on material possessions for all their needs.

The Dr Gary Schwartz link IMO is not just about seeking another religion. IMO, it's about science and scientists being open to explanations of the Universe that sees the Universe more than just a physical reality or from a empirical perspective.

Several(many?) noted scientists like TV scientists and mainstream science media tout empirical knowledge. They often say it's to separate out philosophy/religion/faith/BELIEF from science. Empirical knowledge they say is the only reliable knowledge, the only way LIFE can learn. This is based on a PHILOSOPHY coined Empiricism by the PHILOSOPHER John Locke more than 300 yrs ago. The PHILOSOPHY is predicated on the BELIEF that all knowledge or almost all knowledge can only be attained by observation through the physical senses/experimentation. I submit it is entirely a mistaken notion that science can be separated from BELIEF/PHILOSOPHY!

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 16:27
Another way to achieve goals is the Mr Money Mustache (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) way, "financial freedom through badassity." It's a great blog, iconoclastic at times. My wife and I read every issue, nodding and chuckling. If we had the internet thirty five years ago (and were talented writers and researchers, by the way), we could have written it. The hiking lifestyle helps one understand it, that's for sure.

To add to Mtsman's list, ever see the 100 thing challenge (http://guynameddave.com/about-the-100-thing-challenge/)?

Thanks garlic. Visit the sites frequently and live by many of the aspects suggested.

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 16:32
Great sites MTsman. I'm involved with the Tiny House and Minimalist movements. I live in a 120 sq. ft "house" when in Hawaii. I lived comfortably in a 136 sq. ft house with my fiance in NJ.

Coffee
12-04-2015, 17:12
"If my decomposing carcass helps nourish the roots of a juniper tree or the wings of a vulture—that is immortality enough for me. And as much as anyone deserves." ~Edward Abbey

My guess is that people who regularly backpack have healthier views of mortality than those who don't, but on average, will have to face that eventuality a bit later than more sedentary people who are also more likely to fear death. As we can see when in the wilderness, death is a normal part of nature and not some abnormality to be feared irrationally.

Uriah
12-04-2015, 17:28
My guess is that people who regularly backpack have healthier views of mortality than those who don't, but on average, will have to face that eventuality a bit later than more sedentary people who are also more likely to fear death. As we can see when in the wilderness, death is a normal part of nature and not some abnormality to be feared irrationally.

Well put, and I believe true. We desire immortality when we haven't lived, or indeed aren't living the life we wish. (Abbey again: "If your life has been wasted, than of course you're going to hate giving it up.")

Not every dream can come true of course, but why should they? They're only dreams! We must enact them before it's too late. By doing so we'll be too damn tired and broken to wish for immortality.

Hell, after the AT I'm absolutely okay with death; it certainly won't hurt as much.

fiddlehead
12-04-2015, 18:45
I love that this thread turned philosophical.
I guess it was meant to.

But, my 1st, 2nd and 3rd thoughts about why I can't always do what I want any more is simple: KIDS!
I can't experience the same freedom I did when I hiked multiple years in a row, without a care in the world.
Easy to focus when you feel that peace of mind.

Now, I still love (and miss) traveling like I used to, but after about 3 days, I worry about my kid, and what to do about his education (both academically and culturally), and wonder why I am being selfish and traveling instead of helping him.

I never felt an urge to quit a thru-hike.
But, now, I can't imagine finding the time away from him to do one.

Dogwood
12-04-2015, 19:13
Parents don't need to abandon their children to hike. My bro and myself took his very young kids across the Grand Canyon on a Rim To Rim To Rim carrying them in child carriers. We did the same trail hiking up to Chimney Rock in NC. What a great workout and wonderful experience for all! Hiking with kids can help us as adults actually be less self absorbed, to practice patience, and further ways to inspire others. NO, hiking and experiencing the outdoors does not need to be a selfish endeavor.

MuddyWaters
12-04-2015, 23:54
Parents don't need to abandon their children to hike. My bro and myself took his very young kids across the Grand Canyon on a Rim To Rim To Rim carrying them in child carriers. We did the same trail hiking up to Chimney Rock in NC. What a great workout and wonderful experience for all! Hiking with kids can help us as adults actually be less self absorbed, to practice patience, and further ways to inspire others. NO, hiking and experiencing the outdoors does not need to be a selfish endeavor.

Not when they are 3, but wait until they are teens.
Kids have friends and their own lives to live and things they want to do. You can support them, and be there to watch them in their endeavors, or you can be a bad selfish parent. Both my kids play sports most of the year, it leaves little time for other things for them . their choice they had to make. Daughter is college athlete and sons being recruited too. Thats what they want. Even 21 yr old college kids expect you to come watch them play too.even if they are 1000 miles from home, you are goung to spend $$$ to go see them play during their season because its important to them.

Dogwood
12-05-2015, 00:20
Umm, if I'm recalling correctly on that R2R2R my nieces were 2 and 3 1/2 yrs old. On that Chimney Rock summit hike one nephew was 3, maybe 4, and another niece was 3.

Another nephew who is 12 yrs old involved 10-11 months a yr in All Star baseball and yr round organized competitive tennis, a different 10 yr old niece and her 14 yr old sister, and two other even younger adolescents, all did a 9 person 7 day hike of the Foothills Tr where we swam, explored Nature, and were inspired to contribute to a whole by looking beyond just their own immediate self interests every day. They all walked under their own power the entire hike. They are all now hooked on exercising, walking/backpacking, swimming, outdoors, and respecting Nature and others in a more encompassing un-self-absorbed way. AND, I AM NO GENIUS AT MOTIVATING AND INSPIRING PEOPLE. One advantage I have though is that none are my own children so any day to day 24 hrs a day 7 days a wk 365 days a yr parent/child competition/friction that can develop I don't have to deal with. I've noticed when their parents, my siblings, enter the group dynamic it can often be more difficult in our relationships with me as their Uncle, friend, and guardian.

MuddyWaters
12-05-2015, 00:48
My son has done a lot of hiking.
But simply put, there comes a time when you let them do what they want to do most
And as a caring parent...thats what you do too.
In some cases, its all you have time to do.

archie
12-05-2015, 01:33
Man this stinks. I had a lengthy post all typed up and I lost it. It more clearly said what I couldn't say at 3 am last night!

To sum it up, I agree with you but I believe there is more to life than just bucking the norms. There is also more than selling out to and giving in to the norms. I have lived my life at both of those extremes and it wasn't right. There is a perfect place in the middle. A place I feel I have finally found.

Its kind of like that time between a bitter cold morning and the afternoon heat. That time when the temps are perfect and the light is special. It is tough to find that place and harder to stay there.

Great topic Dogwood!

BonBon
12-05-2015, 08:10
When I finally committed to doing the hike, it was when I realized that the timing would never be perfect. "Life" is always going to be there, things would always going to be going on that I wouldl have to interrupt. People along the way always asked me-so what are you going to do when you get back to your "life?" I was talking with a couple of trail angels/thru-hikers about that just before Moosilauke and one of them said that when people asked her that she said-"This IS my life. I am living it right now!" I thought about that and it is something I have taken home with me. It seems we always think things will be just right when this happens, or when that happens. I put myself in little holding patterns, not just about things like grand adventures but also everyday things. But I am home now, and this IS my life, too. So was hiking the AT. It was a great lesson for living in the moment.

garlic08
12-05-2015, 08:34
When I finally committed to doing the hike, it was when I realized that the timing would never be perfect...

Yeah, so many people I meet in towns get that far-away look and tell me they would hike the Trail but never have the time. As I commiserate and nod sagely, I'm thinking, "Of course you don't have the time, you need to make the time." Can you imagine a life in which you had five or six months ahead of you with nothing to do? That would be horrible.

Yes, Dogwood, great topic!

rickb
12-05-2015, 09:10
I want to put in a word for small adventures, and just appreciating all that is at our doorsteps

After some relatively interesting experiences and my thru hike I developed a "go big or go home" mentality, and guess what-- I stayed home. For years.

Not very smart.

Traveler
12-05-2015, 09:18
I want to put in a word for small adventures, and just appreciating all that is at our doorsteps

After some relatively interesting experiences and my thru hike I developed a "go big or go home" mentality, and guess what-- I stayed home. For years.

Not very smart.

Good point. There are as many ways to do long or short distance hikes. Making time for shorter duration walks as opposed to long thru hikes can provide the balance a lot of folks need to enjoy other aspects of life and/or meet commitments that have a higher priority.

rickb
12-05-2015, 09:22
Archie,

Regarding your lost post:

Are you familiar with the Restore Auto-Saved Content button? You have to return to the same "reply" or "reply with quote" button you used to make your original draft to find it.

32867

Coffee
12-05-2015, 09:28
I want to put in a word for small adventures, and just appreciating all that is at our doorsteps.

Good point. And this reminds me of a great local trail run I haven't done for too long and will do later this morning!

Jake2c
12-05-2015, 09:58
This has been pretty well covered and lots of excellent points that I enjoyed reading. End point for me is balance, the pursuit of too much of anything can be a negative, including going anywhere you want. The initial question was just philosophical. If you have no cares and need nothing, where would you go. Ok, lets say the answer is country "A". The next question, what is stopping you assumes you are not doing what you really want to do. In my case, for most all my career, I did not go because there were other things I wanted more. A happy family, more education, pay 100% of my daughters education, live comfortably. On that last example, I do have more than I need but I was never driven by it. My job was more of a desire to support an ideal, it paid enough so I could buy stuff I don't really need but even if it paid less, I still would most likely have kept it and devoted myself to the same extent. My main driver for happiness and fulfillment was more about doing for others. Now, newly retired I am young enough and financially independent enough to go anywhere I want. I will be attempting the AT shortly but, if my daughter, wife, or a number of others close to me needed me, the AT would come in 2nd and I would be fully happy with that. So the answer to what is stopping me would be the sense of well being I get in helping others. Sort of odd when you think about it, but isn't the pure pursuit of what you want to do, considering travel, free of the regards of anything else the same thing that drives people to spend their lives pursuing stuff? Whether you are happy with the end point of either pursuit is very personal. Happiness in the end is something generated from within once you get past sustainment needs. I suspect looking for happiness in the next dollar after that, or the next trip or toy is sort of looking in the wrong place. We can enjoy these things, but none of it will "make" you happy. The bigger problem is whether you understand yourself or not. Are you measuring how you feel by your internal standard or someone else's. Whether you pursue stuff, personal relationships, travel or anything else, the goal has to be yours, not someone else's, and you have to place that goal in the larger picture of your entire life, not just what you want tomorrow. That capability is what makes us a bit more complicated then the rest of the living things on this planet.

rafe
12-05-2015, 10:00
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
- Me & Bobby McGee

Dogwood
12-05-2015, 13:27
When I finally committed to doing the hike, it was when I realized that the timing would never be perfect. "Life" is always going to be there, things would always going to be going on that I wouldl have to interrupt. People along the way always asked me-so what are you going to do when you get back to your "life?" I was talking with a couple of trail angels/thru-hikers about that just before Moosilauke and one of them said that when people asked her that she said-"This IS my life. I am living it right now!" I thought about that and it is something I have taken home with me. It seems we always think things will be just right when this happens, or when that happens. I put myself in little holding patterns, not just about things like grand adventures but also everyday things. But I am home now, and this IS my life, too. So was hiking the AT. It was a great lesson for living in the moment.


Yeah, so many people I meet in towns get that far-away look and tell me they would hike the Trail but never have the time. As I commiserate and nod sagely, I'm thinking, "Of course you don't have the time, you need to make the time." Can you imagine a life in which you had five or six months ahead of you with nothing to do? That would be horrible.

Yes,...great topic!

AHHHHHHHHHH. THANK YOU! There ya go! Breakthrough.

Loved Lithia Springs when I lived in Tampa. :)

Dogwood
12-05-2015, 13:32
I want to put in a word for small adventures, and just appreciating all that is at our doorsteps

After some relatively interesting experiences and my thru hike I developed a "go big or go home" mentality, and guess what-- I stayed home. For years.

Not very smart.


Good point. There are as many ways to do long or short distance hikes. Making time for shorter duration walks as opposed to long thru hikes can provide the balance a lot of folks need to enjoy other aspects of life and/or meet commitments that have a higher priority.


Good point. And this reminds me of a great local trail run I haven't done for too long and will do later this morning!


There ya go! That's what I so appreciate...finding solutions that work...perhaps only individually...but nevertheless getting BEYOND stuck in a limited mindset. Thanks!

MuddyWaters
12-05-2015, 13:59
Dont listen to what people say....ever.
Pay attention to what people do.

People do what they want to. They also do what is in their own best interest.

If someone wants to be hiking, they will.
If they value other things more at a particular time in their life, they wont.

They might dream, they might say how much theyd like to do something, but what they dont say...is that other things are just more important to them.
Could be family, could be job, could be money
But people always do...exactly what they want to.

The notion that there are people out there that want to hike, but cant is false.
There can be people that dont know how to accomplish a specific change in their life they want to make...thats different

Ive always told my kids that:

You can have anything you want in life
You cant have everything
Choose whats most important to you.

archie
12-05-2015, 14:36
Archie,

Regarding your lost post:

Are you familiar with the Restore Auto-Saved Content button? You have to return to the same "reply" or "reply with quote" button you used to make your original draft to find it.

32867

Well where were you yesterday! I knew there was a way I just couldn't find it.

JohnHuth
12-05-2015, 14:53
If there's one limitation for me, it's my reluctance to go solo. Thanks for posting the thread, as it caused some degree of soul searching and gives me a new goal. I'll do this on short hikes and kayak paddles, but haven't done it on longer trips. Good thought, thanks!

MuddyWaters
12-05-2015, 15:06
If there's one limitation for me, it's my reluctance to go solo. Thanks for posting the thread, as it caused some degree of soul searching and gives me a new goal. I'll do this on short hikes and kayak paddles, but haven't done it on longer trips. Good thought, thanks!


Take whatever electronic doo-dads you need to feel comfortable, and go.
There is a good reason so many will say they prefer to hike solo.:)

Coffee
12-05-2015, 15:08
Take whatever electronic doo-dads you need to feel comfortable, and go.
There is a good reason so many will say they prefer to hike solo.:)

Funny to see electronics mentioned. On the trail run I was inspired to do this morning, I took my stupid phone and interrupted my run for an unpleasant phone call. Next time the phone is staying in airplane mode, as it does on my hikes, available for calls when I see fit only!

JohnHuth
12-05-2015, 15:54
There is a good reason so many will say they prefer to hike solo.:)

Definitely - probably could make a long list of positives - you can go at your own pace, pick your trail, stop when you want, being alone with your thoughts, don't have to be tied to someone else's schedule. I planned a long hike in the Alps last year with friends and family - it was very rewarding, but also became somewhat stressful in the end.

Uriah
12-05-2015, 16:54
Getting back to what stops us. (Perhaps this should go back to the thread that spawned this one.) I think we can see it is a simple matter and comes down to priorities.

We speak of "balance" as though it can be defined with any accuracy, as though it the same for each of us. It cannot, obviously. What I've noted over the years is that we often see individuals employing the term as a sort-of self-defense mechanism used to enable themselves to feel okay about not seeking to accomplish his or her ultimate desires. "It's okay I'm not chasing these dreams and desires since my life is good and balanced."

I say to hell with balance! (Nothing in moderation, including moderation!) Each man's "balance" could very well be another man's teetering point. Or his breaking point. It's simply a matter of priority, of prioritizing. Balance has nothing to do with it.

Children should obviously be a priority---once they're born. Maybe not beforehand, as it's a crowded enough planet nowadays and only getting more so, but never mind that. A wife might also be a priority for many of us, be it finding her or keeping her, though I'd only ever marry if she understood and condoned and perhaps shared my individual priorities and dreams. Within reason anyway, though reason isn't really necessary (nothing reasonable, including reason!). Is it worth the trade to relinquish dreams and desires I've held since my youth, long before I dreamt of marriage or "finding the one"? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe it's no wonder I'm not hitched...

But again, it all comes down to choices and prioritization, not balance. Daily choices and long-term prioritization. I know if I were to choose to give up on long-held dreams and/or the pursuit of them, I would be no less than absolutely miserable. And I consider my life fairly well-balanced (though I don't necessarily consider myself as such).

I also know some dreams and desires will never occur, and that's okay...it's a big universe (if it's indeed just one) and there's much beyond our control or possibility---we're not fully in control. But I'm grateful I've been given opportunity to pursue most my desires, and the opportunity to invent or discover new ones, having been fortunate enough to be born in a relatively free and wealthy country, one that has so far remained that way during my short time. And I'm even more grateful I've made some sacrifices in order for these dreams and desires to transpire; we do have some degree of control, after all. So use some control and preach no more about "balance" to one another. Until the notion can be defined well enough, it's utterly meaningless.

I'll hop down from this soapbox now. I apologize now for rambling, after the fact!

johnnybgood
12-05-2015, 17:04
Funny to see electronics mentioned. On the trail run I was inspired to do this morning, I took my stupid phone and interrupted my run for an unpleasant phone call. Next time the phone is staying in airplane mode, as it does on my hikes, available for calls when I see fit only!

Our culture has been brainwashed by advertisers to "stay connected " to an extent that we cannot enjoy 'DOWN TIME' without feeling the need to be available to distractions.
A recent study found that many people admit to spending about 6 hours a day at work on the internet on personal entertainment sites such as this. Funny thing is , how did we manage to live our lives before cell phones and electronic devices became a mainstay of our way of life ? :rolleyes:

archie
12-05-2015, 17:39
I'll hop down from this soapbox now. I apologize now for rambling, after the fact!

No need for that, I think this is the kind of thing this thread was intended for.

Absolutely the balancing point is different for everyone. It is also a dynamic thing, ever changing throughout our lives, at least it has been for me. Balance isn't an excuse to justify giving up on dreams, it is a means to achieve them. Call it prioritizing if you will, it is simply identify and striving to achieve the perfect mixture of the things you want to do vs. the things you need to do to achieve as many of ones dreams as possible. Obviously someone with no desire to raise a family will have a vastly different balancing point than someone who does not. That doesn't mean the person who dreams of that has in some way given up. The issue I have with your viewpoint is that you seem to imply if its not some hedonistic pursuit such as hiking, its not a dream. Not true for me. I once thought as you did. I took off after college and went skiing. A lot. I paid my way by patrolling and I achieved what I thought were All my dreams. I skied all over the US. Then Canada. Then I went further and skied Argentina, Chile and New Zealand. I was living my dream. I was balanced. Except it turns out its not my dream anymore. I eventually longed for roots, a family something more. Family, career and a decent house all can be worthy dreams.

Balance isn't a defense mechanism justifying giving up on dreams. Saying to hell with balance, maybe that is? Saying to hell with balance is saying to hell with anything else in life that may matter. Having a good time isn't all that's out there at least for me. I hike to satisfy my need for seclusion, connection with nature, feeling of freedom--many reasons. When I was skiing, I skied for many of the same reasons. I found that not having any more depth in my life was unsatisfying. Now. I have many facets, some of which are in conflict for my attention. This makes each individual dream so much more satisfying.

Coffee
12-05-2015, 17:55
Our culture has been brainwashed by advertisers to "stay connected " to an extent that we cannot enjoy 'DOWN TIME' without feeling the need to be available to distractions.
A recent study found that many people admit to spending about 6 hours a day at work on the internet on personal entertainment sites such as this. Funny thing is , how did we manage to live our lives before cell phones and electronic devices became a mainstay of our way of life ? :rolleyes:

If there were still pay phones available in most places, I'd take my Spot and leave the cell phone at home. Spot can't receive anything (just the way I like it) and I can keep family in the loop on my whereabouts. But without pay phones I now carry a cell phone on hikes. I've met a few hikers in the same boat.

Pedaling Fool
12-06-2015, 15:38
Thanks for the links. I read and considered them. You usually provide good food for thought PF.

You'll probably like this...something about our consciousness... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ6SVIfEnZs

Dogwood
12-06-2015, 18:12
Our culture has been brainwashed by advertisers to "stay connected " to an extent that we cannot enjoy 'DOWN TIME' without feeling the need to be available to distractions.
...

Sometimes, we can learn much more when we consider more deeply what's not being communicated. What they are not saying is that when we connect to one thing, one system, to one subset of information, to one way of life we disconnect from other things, others systems, other sets of information, other ways of life. They don't ask and don't want us to consider that HUGELY SIGNIFICANT ASPECT when we connect according to their definitions of "connectedness." It is a calculated, systematic and ubiquitous use of influence that endears others to your paradigms.

Datto
12-07-2015, 08:41
This is the short version describing the sequence of why so many people do very little with themselves.


Lack of critical thinking -- the inability to critique ahead of time and foresee the likelihood of your own decisions in the present day being in your best interest in the future.

example: "I'm going to wait until I retire and then I'll thru-hike the Appalachian Trail with my dog Fluffy and I'll only need $1500 for the adventure because I won't be eating pizza in town."
example: "She's hawt and yeah, she's been married three times before but I'm tired of chasing women in bars -- besides, we're in love."
example: "All they wanted to do was stare at my 'brow ring during the interview. I'm certainly not changing my piercings just to get a job -- they'll just have to accept me for who I am."

This leads to...

No idea about what you truly want --

This leads to...

No sustainable long-term goals and no idea how to turn dreams into goals with action behind them. With no idea what you truly want, there aren't any meaningful goals to strive toward and long-term is meaningful only in relation to the upcoming weekend. Anything beyond that and, whew, that's pretty far out there isn't it?

This leads to...

Being easily manipulated and influenced by Madison Avenue, Hollywood, Kimye, Arguing Housewives, Facebook likes and on and on. Hey, you can be just like Kim if even in your own mind.

example: Tying your vehicle in with your self-image rather than seeing your vehicle as a tool. "This new Benz will make me SO cool with my co-workers at the Abercrombie store -- hey World, here I am with my new silver Betsy (click)."
example: "Tonight, I'll watch the Kardashian show, then onto Housewives. Tomorrow, it's Caitlyn then The Voice and maybe a recorded Survivor if I they don't make me go into work the next day -- I don't know how I get anything done with all these important TV shows on my schedule."
example: "An Android phone??? People will laugh at me. Do they even make those anymore?"

This leads to...

Rationalization of how you got to where you are.

example: "Yeah, I wish I wasn't broke so often and woulda finished college but that is the way things turned out and I'm happy with the results. Besides, Safeway has a retirement program I'm going to contribute to someday when I get it together. "
Re-scan. Re-Re-Re-scan. Re-scan.

This leads to...

Inability to escape bad decisions quickly and retention of bad situations in order to justify a mistake wasn't made.

example: How about that starter spouse you clung to for years even though you knew it was a bad idea before the annulment period expired?

example: "That new boss of mine is so mean and everyone is so worried about their job no one will stand up to her. If I just had an opportunity to go someplace else, I would. But with the economy the way it is, you know, and..."

This leads to...

A mediocre, blah, not-so-happy life. This is not seeing life as the gift it is. This is seeing life as a series of coulda-been-better events that were out of your control so you couldn't be held responsible and it's not your fault.

ROOCHIT<sneeze>!


Datto

TexasBob
12-07-2015, 10:28
Our culture has been brainwashed by advertisers to "stay connected " to an extent that we cannot enjoy 'DOWN TIME' without feeling the need to be available to distractions...........

No advertiser brainwashed my daughter into an average usage of 3,000 text messages a month. The cause would be the teenage urge to communicate with her peers and not feel left out which seems to continue into college age and beyond.

Pedaling Fool
12-07-2015, 10:33
No advertiser brainwashed my daughter into an average usage of 3,000 text messages a month. The cause would be the teenage urge to communicate with her peers and not feel left out which seems to continue into college age and beyond.Yes, we are a social animal, that's the main driver in people wanting to be connected. And we all love gossip:D

Dogwood
12-07-2015, 15:44
No advertiser brainwashed my daughter into an average usage of 3,000 text messages a month. The cause would be the teenage urge to communicate with her peers and not feel left out which seems to continue into college age and beyond.

Marketing absolutely influenced your daughter in HOW and to what extent she communicates.

Dogwood
12-07-2015, 15:53
Liked it Datto. Considering and heeding your advice will not likely happen though.

BTW, I'm so out of touch i didn't know what the heck Kimye was about so had to Google it. :) We are an easily distracted animal aren't we? The advertisers - entrenched power structures - surely know it too and employ it to get what they want.

handlebar
12-07-2015, 18:00
+1 to Datto's post above showing the results of a lack of critical thinking. Indeed, I think that the lack of critical thinking across all of society, has led to many of the woes of our world. I was one of the lucky ones taught critical thinking in high school, but that sort of teaching is truly rare. The "powers that be" want a malleable populace that they can subject to the wiles of advertising, propaganda, and fear-mongering to keep us (generally) in conformity with societal norms of their preference. Very few of us step back to critically assess what we are doing with our life or to consider that the accumulation of stuff (goods, financial assets) has amounted to "enough" for me.

Hearing the words, "you have cancer" now 12 years ago, shortly after my parents had died, one from cancer, the other from heart disease, taught me to take a hard look at my life and my priorities---to change from I'll do it "some day" or "when I retire". I realized that (as in the song lyric) "some day never comes", and decided to make time to fulfill some of the dreams I'd put on hold for about 40 years. Thankfully, I was prepared financially for "some day" and "when I retire" by living beneath my means for 2 decades; had fulfilled my responsibilities as a parent and husband well enough that I could carve out 6 months to hike the AT; and had kept my body in "good enough" condition that I could still physically to do it. That experience gave me a new passion and changed my physical condition from "good enough" to feeling really healthy, inspiring me to continue long distance hiking and to slowly attempt to simplify my life.

Just Bill
12-07-2015, 19:19
I'd add personal responsibility to the critical thinking argument.

I have many friends capable of critical thought; just not the comprehension or even acknowledgement that they posses the ability to effect their own lives in a meaningful way.

I think one of the greatest gifts of the woods is the simple knowledge that I am responsible for and in control of myself.
And not just the notion of it, but the fact of it that was demonstrated and reinforced with each trip taken.

TexasBob
12-07-2015, 19:38
Marketing absolutely influenced your daughter in HOW and to what extent she communicates.

Really? I think I know my daughter a little bit better than you do.

Dogwood
12-07-2015, 20:53
".....The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . .You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting .... by a system that threw them overboard..... They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your .... retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this.... place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich.... who don’t give a **** about you. They don’t give a ... about you . . . they don’t give a ... about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant. . .”





‘’(The owners, "the powers that be") don’t want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the (cajones).''
- George Carlin

Lone Wolf
12-07-2015, 21:27
illuminati.......................

TexasBob
12-07-2015, 21:33
".....The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . .You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . . Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting .... by a system that threw them overboard..... They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ****tier jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your .... retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this.... place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy. The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich.... who don’t give a **** about you. They don’t give a ... about you . . . they don’t give a ... about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant. . .”





‘’(The owners, "the powers that be") don’t want a population capable of critical thinking, they want obedient workers, people just smart enough to run the machines and just dumb enough to passively accept their situation.You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the (cajones).''


- George Carlin

My daughter texts her friends for the same reason you post to Whiteblaze - she wants to part of a community, she wants others to know what she thinks and she thinks her opinion is worth reading.

Dogwood
12-07-2015, 21:51
I'd add personal responsibility to the critical thinking argument.

I have many friends capable of critical thought; just not the comprehension or even acknowledgement that they possess (but)the ability to effect their own lives in a meaningful way.

I think one of the greatest gifts of the woods is the simple knowledge that I am responsible for and in control of myself.
And not just the notion of it, but the fact of it that was demonstrated and reinforced...

Critical thinking is often exhibited in the presence of personal responsibility. They tend to go together. So, when this occurs as you say, "I think one of the greatest gifts of the woods is the simple knowledge that I am responsible for and in control of myself", you find a higher degree of critical thinking too. And, it is my thoughtful opinion it factors strongly into the reason why some folks have problems reintegrating into previously unquestioned cultural and societal norms when having been largely removed from them for a lengthy duration such as what occurs after a lengthy AT thru-hike or after living outside the country/system for an extended period. A LD hike provides an opportunity to "sober up." If you read many Trail Journals or Trail Stories at the end of the ATC's AT Journeys publication some relate post thru-hike coming to an almost epiphanic clarity about cultural and societal norms which may be able only when removed from the dumbing down when immersed in them. We observe repeatedly, people coming to a greater awareness of these norms after having been removed from them for some extended duration.

Removing oneself from their own cultural, societal, and environmental norms to which you've been entrenched, largely with little to no thought of it, such as when one travels a lot led to this observation by a well traveled man himself, Mark Twain - "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, all foes to real understanding. Likewise tolerance and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in our corner of the earth."

Dogwood
12-07-2015, 21:57
My daughter texts her friends for the same reason you post to Whiteblaze - she wants to part of a community, she wants others to know what she thinks and she thinks her opinion is worth reading.

Yes, I agree, but to assume I wasn't influenced by advertising, marketing, and the system in which I reside, in HOW and to what I extent I communicate here, IMHO is incorrect.

MuddyWaters
12-07-2015, 22:04
people will think about things, they want to.
As long as the sheeple are fat, dumb, and have something mindless to watch on TV, they are happy.

TexasBob
12-07-2015, 22:29
Yes, I agree, but to assume I wasn't influenced by advertising, marketing, and the system in which I reside, in HOW and to what I extent I communicate here, IMHO is incorrect.

Ok, what advertising, marketing and system etc. influenced you to communicate here? You don't seem like the someone who dances to another's music but makes your own.

Datto
12-08-2015, 04:20
I don't know if I mentioned this before but I sleep with a Saint every night. Responsible for saving a dozen or so infants and toddlers from the most dire of terrible circumstances. One of those toddlers is now an eighteen year old young man living in the Hood. I'm looking to have him come stay with me on this here mountaintop for a while (assuming he can acclimate to the Doberman environment here --- not so easily undertaken by someone from the Hood). I'm intending to take him over to the AT near Standing Indian heading northbound (of course). The young man recently had a girl who wanted to have him stay overnight on a sleepover -- you could say the Saint and his mother had one huge hissy fit about that idea. Ha. Wait until he sees Oprah The Bear strolling past the front porch -- that'll make a sleepover seem pretty tame.


Datto

rocketsocks
12-08-2015, 04:44
...discussions like these usually have me departing the campfire and turnin' in early. I guess now adding hip boots to the kit is the norm.

Traveler
12-08-2015, 06:55
...discussions like these usually have me departing the campfire and turnin' in early. I guess now adding hip boots to the kit is the norm.

LOL! It does get a little thick

English Stu
12-08-2015, 08:01
Not original thoughts but useful to me.
Make yourself rich by making your wants few.
Life might seem a prison but you have the key.
If you think small things don't matter try sleeping with a mosquito.
Persons who despair of ever being rich make little account of little expenses, thinking that a little added to a little will never amount to a large sum.

Casey & Gina
12-08-2015, 09:20
There are two ways to be rich: make more or desire less.

BonBon
12-10-2015, 09:46
There are two ways to be rich: make more or desire less.

Amen.
And Amen again since amen alone was too short to post.

BonBon
12-10-2015, 09:46
There are two ways to be rich: make more or desire less.

You would make a great stoic.

Casey & Gina
12-10-2015, 10:44
You would make a great stoic.

Hah, you may have just given me a trail name! :)

Dogwood
12-10-2015, 14:36
There are two ways to be rich: make more or desire less.

There's another way. Don't define rich only in terms of financial riches. :)

Datto
12-10-2015, 21:36
On my AT thru-hike I was in a bar in Rangely, ME watching several AT northbound thru-hikers dancing to the music. Wow was that funny as all get out. Some patron had just bought shots for all the AT thru-hikers so a waitress came past where I was stting with a tray full of shots of something. A girl -- an AT thru-hiker -- who I had seen along the Trail in Maine came over to sit next to me at the bar table when the shots came past. We talked for a while, then she asked me, "Datto, what are you going to do after all of this is over?"

The subject was something I had been avoiding for much of the last 200 miles and for all of the miles on the Trail prior to that.

One of the things I had noticed about AT thru-hikers is the amount of time it takes for a response to be generated to someone asking a question. The pace of conversation is so much slower along the Trail. Possibly that is why AT thru-hikers seem to get the reputation of being aloof.

I'd pondered the answer to her question, came to a conclusion and turned to respond back to her with my answer.

I looked at her and she was in tears. Big tears rolling down her cheeks in the dark of the bar.

She said to me, "I can't go back to the way it was. The way it was before this."

I told her, "Yeah, I know."


Datto

rocketsocks
12-10-2015, 23:01
There's another way. Don't define rich only in terms of financial riches. :)
this...all day long

rocketsocks
12-10-2015, 23:03
LOL! It does get a little thick:D at times and in a word...yes it Doo ;)

Mtsman
12-22-2015, 04:42
Ok, what advertising, marketing and system etc. influenced you to communicate here? You don't seem like the someone who dances to another's music but makes your own.

I think Dogwood missed your comment but I would like to agree with him here and express the influences i had, based on marketing, that got me here. One of the marketing ploys that got me here was something called "google" and the big push many years ago. "everyone" was using it and even in main stream movies the term was being used. Hell, "google it" is often replacing "search for it on the web" even if you arent using google. Well, that is just one marketing scheme I fell into. I googled "Hiking trail forums" several years go and WB was the first google hit. I lurked and read for a few years before I even signed up. This is just one of the marketing ploys that had influence on my daily internet usage in my modern life.


And if this video is true, Most Americans are under the influence of marketing, thinking that they need to get a diamond ring for engagement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5kWu1ifBGU

There are many marketing schemes out there that influence our entire culture let alone just a few people. Just sayin'


YMMV

TexasBob
12-22-2015, 10:42
I think Dogwood missed your comment ..........

He didn't miss it he just chose not to answer it. I appreciate your thoughts but I respectfully disagree with you and Dogwood. I believe that we are not sheep and that corporations aren't the root of all evil. I give people credit for having some brains and actually using them more often than not. That was an interesting video but I just don't believe that all my actions are controlled by advertising.

MuddyWaters
12-23-2015, 10:13
There are many marketing schemes out there that influence our entire culture let alone just a few people. Just sayin'


YMMV

Most definitely.
They are so ingrained in people, they are aghast if you suggest they do something different than they are accustomed.