PDA

View Full Version : Headlamps & Lighters



bemental
12-07-2015, 16:01
First, this post is not meant to troll anyone.

Many people on the forums seem to have the mantra of "I always have two sources of fire, and two sources of light" - meaning a bic lighter and some waterproof matches, and two light sources, perhaps a cell phone and a headlamp.

I'd love to hear what scenarios people are coming up with that "two is one, one is none" applies to these items under AT Thru Hike Conditions.

Short of some sort of crazy wild animal attack in the middle of the night during an ice storm of epic proportions, I'm at a loss as to why people are so hung up on being able to start a fire, or see at night.


Especially if you:

don't hike at night
are in the bag before dark
rise with the sun
have the appropriate gear for the season you're in


Some of the scenarios that have been proposed are so fantastical as to be from the hiker horror stories section, and as such no flashlight or bic lighter would be of any use anyway.


Remember, this is going to be a Devil's Advocate thread, no personal battles to be fought or won.

bemental
12-07-2015, 16:09
Examples from another post:


A headlamp and bic lighter are such inconsequential weights and can be life savers so there is really no good reason not to have them. Try to light a campfire with your stove or hike any distance at night with your phone. You may never have to do that, but if for some unforeseen reason you do, you'd be in trouble

Nothing against Slo-go'en, merely an example.

When, for instance, will a campfire NEED to be started, or will someone NEED to hike a long-distance at night against their will?

While a campfire is incredibly useful during a survival situation (we'll say being wet and in below freezing temps), how often will a thru hiker have every item in their pack become completely drenched and have to start a fire?

Also, walking long-distances at night, when does this happen in a survival/save-your-life context? If you're truly in a survival situation, on the Appalachian Trail, at night, and you NEED TO MOVE, what does this even look like? When will someone NEED to be walking at night, that can't wait until the morning, that isn't going to require help from someone else anyway?

tflaris
12-07-2015, 16:27
Headlamps are a necessity early morning (before sunrise) and late at night at camp. I hang mine on my ridge line in my hammock.

YMMV


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

TNhiker
12-07-2015, 16:52
When will someone NEED to be walking at night, that can't wait until the morning, that isn't going to require help from someone else anyway?



hmmmmmmmmmm...............a walk to the privy during the night.........

and you havent factored in a medical or some other emergency where one has to get out at night........

for instance----if i broke my arm at icewater spring, after the sun went down---i could hike out at night with a headlamp and meet said emergency responders at the gap..........

MuddyWaters
12-07-2015, 16:56
I saw your post that said you werent taking them. I didnt say anything.

But since you asked......

Suppose you need to use both hands for something, starting fire or cooking, what is your plan? Hold your cell phone in your teeth?
Maybe you want to hike a few hours in the dark for whatever reason, you really intend to hike by cell phone?
Seriously?
I use a small light, weighs 0.7 oz with AAA batery, clips on hat bill, gives me plenty of light.

Fire is another story.
My hands have been so cold before that I COULD NOT WORK A LIGHTER.
Yes it happens. And If I could, I wouldnt have felt the flame burning me either.
If you are wet and cold at the time, you might have a problem.

I managed to light a match in said case, and start a fire on the pile of tinder I soaked in alcohol.
Wasnt a life or death situation, but.....those happen too.
People that have never really been cold, just dont understand that your fingers stop working, you lose dexterity. Wet lighters also quit working. Cold lighters quit working.

I always have backup matches. Always. And plan ahead for cold evenings. That means stopping early to cook before you reach finger freezing temps.
How was you planning to light your stove? depend on piezoelectric start? if so, they are notoriously failure prone.

bemental
12-07-2015, 16:59
hmmmmmmmmmm...............a walk to the privy during the night.........

and you havent factored in a medical or some other emergency where one has to get out at night........

for instance----if i broke my arm at icewater spring, after the sun went down---i could hike out at night with a headlamp and meet said emergency responders at the gap..........

Right, two lights aren't needed. One is enough to complete this task.

Also, worse comes to worst, you would have to have broken your first light to need the second light to accomplish this task.

Water Rat
12-07-2015, 17:01
I would not opt to hike without a headlamp. While you might not need it with your everyday backpacking style (and, only you can make this call), they sure do come in handy in an emergency situation. Having a headlamp can also potentially keep you from incurring an emergency situation. Examples of emergency situation : illness, snakebite, a bad fall, an approaching storm that could leave you stranded. Sometimes things happen and the best thing you can do is get yourself to the closest town as fast as possible. There are areas where you do still have to travel to summon the help you might need. In my opinion, these are not the times where one wants to waste time wishing they had a headlamp.

As someone who normally does not night hike, I have found myself night hiking a few times the past couple of years. Sometimes you can arrive at a shelter or tent site and there is no more room, you might find yourself trying to sleep at a place where people want to party, or a shelter/tent site has been closed due to weather damage (that happened this past season). In these instances, you could find yourself having to night hike to get to the next available spot. Sometimes, it takes a bit to find even a stealth site in these instances (I can think of a section in Maine where this happened to me this season.

Personally, I would not want to have my loved ones have to listen to "What was she thinking - trying to hike after dark by the light of her phone?! No wonder she fell to her death!" My headlamp weighs less than 3oz. I can lose a couple of snacks from my food bag and not even notice the difference in weight.

Only you can decide what works for you. Have people hiked without headlamps and survived? Yes. Have people hurt themselves severely because they have not had a headlamp with them. Yes, again. It's like the insurance of having a rain jacket. If you don't bring it with you, you will need it. If you bring it with you, you won't need it.

Coffee
12-07-2015, 17:01
I was on the PCT south of Idyllwild this spring camped alone when I woke up smelling smoke at 2am. I had no idea what was going on and the wind was blowing from the south while I was hiking north. So I packed up and started hiking north away from the smoke. I was glad to have my BD Spot rather than some minimalist light for those few hours of unexpected night hiking. It turned out that the smoke was from some minor wildfire not even on the pct but I couldn't have known that when I decided to hike out aided by my light.

cmoulder
12-07-2015, 17:03
During late spring, summer and early fall I carry only a Photon Freedom and a couple of spare batteries. Nice to have a light to get an early start and to square away things before sleep. Later (and earlier) in the shoulder seasons I use a Petzl e+lite, and for long winter nights a Petzl Tikka Plus.

Fire starters consist of 2 baby bics and a firesteel with 3-4 pjcb's (petroleum jelly cotton balls).

I have hiked for a significant distance at night only one time and don't plan to do so again, and I don't foresee a scenario where I would need to do so. In the East, the trails are commonly so rocky and rooty that whatever situation inspired the night hike would only be made worse.

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:04
I saw your post that said you werent taking them. I didnt say anything.

But since you asked......

Suppose you need to use both hands for something, starting fire or cooking, what is your plan? Hold your cell phone in your teeth?
Maybe you want to hike a few hours in the dark for whatever reason, you really intend to hike by cell phone?
Seriously?
I use a small light, weighs 0.7 oz with AAA batery, clips on hat bill, gives me plenty of light.

Fire is another story.
My hands have been so cold before that I COULD NOT WORK A LIGHTER.
Yes it happens. And If I could, I wouldnt have felt the flame burning me either.
If you are wet and cold at the time, you might have a problem.

I managed to light a match in said case, and start a fire on the pile of tinder I soaked in alcohol.
Wasnt a life or death situation, but.....those happen too.
People that have never really been cold, just dont understand that your fingers stop working, you lose dexterity. Wet lighters also quit working. Cold lighters quit working.

I always have backup matches. Always. And plan ahead for cold evenings. That means stopping early to cook before you reach finger freezing temps.
How was you planning to light your stove? depend on piezoelectric start? if so, they are notoriously failure prone.


Trust me, I've been 'really cold' before. Sitting in ambush sites for an actual enemy fighters, all night, not being able to move, blah blah blah. I know what it's like to be cold.

Stick your hands down your pants to warm them up, said fingers will work in about 5 minutes. For real.

-----

You didn't actually answer my question though, which is WHEN on the Appalachian Trail will you encounter these scenarios?

Cook before it gets dark. Stop hiking before it gets dark. If you're too far from your planned shelter, bivouac somewhere else and plan better for the next day.

Stove stops working, guess what, you're eating cold dinner tonight. Get a new means to light the stove at the next available place.

And no, I don't intend to hike at night. Just like I said in the OP.

garlic08
12-07-2015, 17:09
It sounds like you (the OP) are not advocating hiking without any source of light or heat--just asking why anyone would feel the need for redundancy. Is that right?

The answer is, I think, we pack what we fear. I, for instance, pack a few more pages of puzzles than I really need, because I'm afraid of the boredom should I run out, especially this time of year (loooong nights). Others pack extra route-finding equipment, extra clothing, extra water (very common), too much food (extremely common). The fear of things that go bump in the night is a big one, and I think that leads to extra light sources.

Many people deal with phobias, which are by definition irrational, and there's no way to convince a phobic that the fear is groundless. If someone needs to carry extra light, that's OK.

egilbe
12-07-2015, 17:12
Why wouldnt you want to have a spare lighter or firemaking tool? "One is none and two is one" is a saying for a very good reason. Too many graveyards filled with people who didnt think they would need something and paid the price. Staying warm is a very basic need. We use our eyesight predominately. Half our lives are spent in the dark. Maybe you want to hike to the top of a mountain and watch the sun rise? Or watch the stars shine? What makes you think your cell phone will still have a charge after a day of hiking?

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:13
I was on the PCT south of Idyllwild this spring camped alone when I woke up smelling smoke at 2am. I had no idea what was going on and the wind was blowing from the south while I was hiking north. So I packed up and started hiking north away from the smoke. I was glad to have my BD Spot rather than some minimalist light for those few hours of unexpected night hiking. It turned out that the smoke was from some minor wildfire not even on the pct but I couldn't have known that when I decided to hike out aided by my light.

Thank you, this is exactly the type of scenario I was looking for. Although the likelihood of a forest fire on the Appalachian Trail is much less than the PCT, it would require movement at night none the less.



During late spring, summer and early fall I carry only a Photon Freedom and a couple of spare batteries. Nice to have a light to get an early start and to square away things before sleep. Later (and earlier) in the shoulder seasons I use a Petzl e+lite, and for long winter nights a Petzl Tikka Plus.

Fire starters consist of 2 baby bics and a firesteel with 3-4 pjcb's (petroleum jelly cotton balls).

I have hiked for a significant distance at night only one time and don't plan to do so again, and I don't foresee a scenario where I would need to do so. In the East, the trails are commonly so rocky and rooty that whatever situation inspired the night hike would only be made worse.

Photo Freedom: apprx. 2-3 lumens
iPhone 6 Flashlight: apprx. 5-10 lumens (up to 50 lumens)
Petzel Tikka Plus: apprx. 35 lumens


People doubt the ability of a phone to put out enough light, yet people carry lower-rated lights on the trail for emergencies.

Traffic Jam
12-07-2015, 17:19
First, this post is not meant to troll anyone.

Many people on the forums seem to have the mantra of "I always have two sources of fire, and two sources of light" - meaning a bic lighter and some waterproof matches, and two light sources, perhaps a cell phone and a headlamp.

I'd love to hear what scenarios people are coming up with that "two is one, one is none" applies to these items under AT Thru Hike Conditions.

Short of some sort of crazy wild animal attack in the middle of the night during an ice storm of epic proportions, I'm at a loss as to why people are so hung up on being able to start a fire, or see at night.


Especially if you:

don't hike at night
are in the bag before dark
rise with the sun
have the appropriate gear for the season you're in


Some of the scenarios that have been proposed are so fantastical as to be from the hiker horror stories section, and as such no flashlight or bic lighter would be of any use anyway.

I don't deal well with cold. I backpacked in the Smokies this weekend and my Piezo igniter didn't work and I forgot my lighter. I really wanted something warm to eat. Did I need something warm to eat? No. Was I going to die without it? I don't think so. But I hike for enjoyment, not to be miserable, so I'm going start packing TWO extra lighters. :)

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:21
I would not opt to hike without a headlamp. While you might not need it with your everyday backpacking style (and, only you can make this call), they sure do come in handy in an emergency situation. Having a headlamp can also potentially keep you from incurring an emergency situation. Examples of emergency situation : illness, snakebite, a bad fall, an approaching storm that could leave you stranded. Sometimes things happen and the best thing you can do is get yourself to the closest town as fast as possible. There are areas where you do still have to travel to summon the help you might need. In my opinion, these are not the times where one wants to waste time wishing they had a headlamp.

As someone who normally does not night hike, I have found myself night hiking a few times the past couple of years. Sometimes you can arrive at a shelter or tent site and there is no more room, you might find yourself trying to sleep at a place where people want to party, or a shelter/tent site has been closed due to weather damage (that happened this past season). In these instances, you could find yourself having to night hike to get to the next available spot. Sometimes, it takes a bit to find even a stealth site in these instances (I can think of a section in Maine where this happened to me this season.

Personally, I would not want to have my loved ones have to listen to "What was she thinking - trying to hike after dark by the light of her phone?! No wonder she fell to her death!" My headlamp weighs less than 3oz. I can lose a couple of snacks from my food bag and not even notice the difference in weight.

Only you can decide what works for you. Have people hiked without headlamps and survived? Yes. Have people hurt themselves severely because they have not had a headlamp with them. Yes, again. It's like the insurance of having a rain jacket. If you don't bring it with you, you will need it. If you bring it with you, you won't need it.

Well-reasoned and well-thought out.

Advocating FOR a hands-free light source versus some other sort of light source (cell phone).

It would seem that hiking at night DOES happen, just very infrequently.

Cell phone light is as bright, or brighter than some headlamps that people suggest carrying.

Individual hiking-style is key. Agree, agree, agree.

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:23
Too many graveyards filled with people who didnt think they would need something and paid the price. Staying warm is a very basic need. We use our eyesight predominately. Half our lives are spent in the dark. Maybe you want to hike to the top of a mountain and watch the sun rise? Or watch the stars shine? What makes you think your cell phone will still have a charge after a day of hiking?


Too many graveyards? From people hiking on the Appalachian Trail? This is the scaremongering I was talking about.

As a previous poster said, "We carry our fears". We do spend a lot of the time in the dark, but most of that time is also spent asleep.

Perhaps a sunrise hike is in the cards for some people, or moving to an alternate location to see the stars. Individual hiking styles vary.

Cell phone backup battery, good for 6-7 charges of the phone, that's how.

hikerhobs
12-07-2015, 17:25
It's called being prepared because you never know what's going to happen.

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:26
I don't deal well with cold. I backpacked in the Smokies this weekend and my Piezo igniter didn't work and I forgot my lighter. I really wanted something warm to eat. Did I need something warm to eat? No. Was I going to die without it? I don't think so. But I hike for enjoyment, not to be miserable, so I'm going start packing TWO extra lighters. :)


Heh, that's the spirit - and the reason why people carry double of things. Whether out of fear, or comfort, we carry different things between different people.

Being stuck in the smokies for a few days with a stove you can't light would be a bit of a mishap. There's only so much cold-water-soaking of foodstuffs meant to be cooked that I could take.


Thanks

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:26
It's called being prepared because you never know what's going to happen.

We'd have 40 pound packs if we were prepared for everything that could possibly happen to us on the trail.

Water Rat
12-07-2015, 17:35
Well-reasoned and well-thought out.

Advocating FOR a hands-free light source versus some other sort of light source (cell phone).

It would seem that hiking at night DOES happen, just very infrequently.

Cell phone light is as bright, or brighter than some headlamps that people suggest carrying.

Individual hiking-style is key. Agree, agree, agree.

Absolutely! Hands-free is great in rocky areas, or areas where there might be tricky obstacles.

And, even though you do have a way to charge your phone, the flashlight mode does drain the battery pretty fast and it is often not as bright as a headlamp. Just something to weigh while considering your options.

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:38
It sounds like you (the OP) are not advocating hiking without any source of light or heat--just asking why anyone would feel the need for redundancy. Is that right?

The answer is, I think, we pack what we fear. I, for instance, pack a few more pages of puzzles than I really need, because I'm afraid of the boredom should I run out, especially this time of year (loooong nights). Others pack extra route-finding equipment, extra clothing, extra water (very common), too much food (extremely common). The fear of things that go bump in the night is a big one, and I think that leads to extra light sources.

Many people deal with phobias, which are by definition irrational, and there's no way to convince a phobic that the fear is groundless. If someone needs to carry extra light, that's OK.


THIS.

We carry our fears, for sure - and we all carry different items on the trail because of it.

Some prefer big, honking lights, and some find smaller lights adequate.

ecp2691
12-07-2015, 17:40
For me, this falls into the category of avoiding "stupid light". A headlamp allows you to use both hands to perform tasks and is independent of your phone. While phones are excellent multi-use items, the light function is quite battery intensive and could impact your ability to use the other functions of your phone. Furthermore, running out of battery means you loose multiple important tools.

Backup lighter or matches are something I'd always go with because even neglecting the survival aspect, I want to make absolutely sure I can prepare a hot meal when I really want to. I don't want to go to bed hungry and cold because of faulty gear when I could have backed it up with a matchbook weighing a couple grams.

That being said, there is something satisfying about having as few pieces of gear as possible -- less to think about, less to pack away. HYOH, I don't think its a critical surivival/safety issue but rather one of ease and comfort. After all, who carries back-up first aid kits?

egilbe
12-07-2015, 17:41
Wouldnt a spare headlamp weigh les than a battry charger for your phone? Or even a mini-bic? Leave the phone at home and carry a headlamp

Cheyou
12-07-2015, 17:44
I spent to much time drinking beer in Hamburg Pa. Near the Cabelas store on the AT. Had to climb up a steep hill in the dark. I climbed till I found a flat place to set up my tarp. Don't know if I could have found my way using a phone for light . I'll take the .5oz penalty for a Inova light.

Thom

bemental
12-07-2015, 17:57
Wouldnt a spare headlamp weigh les than a battry charger for your phone? Or even a mini-bic? Leave the phone at home and carry a headlamp

Phone serves other purposes as well - music, podcasts, camera, blogging, emails back home, oh yea and as a phone when service is available.

Water Rat
12-07-2015, 17:57
It all falls under HYOH. Would I recommend using a headlamp over the flashlight on a phone? Yep. The flashlight on a phone does not emit a very bright light and for less time than a headlamp. I have hiked with a weak headlamp and soon realized that I would not want to trust it in an emergency situation. I got myself a brighter headlamp that happens to weigh a little less and I am happy.

Personally, I do not see carrying a headlamp as packing my fears. I just don't happen to consider the flashlight on a phone to be my first choice as a source of light. I would consider that to be my backup if necessary. I am not one to pack my fears (the trail is one of the safest places around, but it does have the potential to be dangerous if I put myself in a bad situation) - I just consider my headlamp to be my source of light.

I have tried using lesser lights and felt that was not a wise choice for me. Your eyesight may vary. I seek knowledge to alleviate any fears I might have. I carry knowledge so I can reduce the chances of putting myself in a dangerous situation.

bemental
12-07-2015, 18:00
For me, this falls into the category of avoiding "stupid light". A headlamp allows you to use both hands to perform tasks and is independent of your phone. While phones are excellent multi-use items, the light function is quite battery intensive and could impact your ability to use the other functions of your phone. Furthermore, running out of battery means you loose multiple important tools.

Backup lighter or matches are something I'd always go with because even neglecting the survival aspect, I want to make absolutely sure I can prepare a hot meal when I really want to. I don't want to go to bed hungry and cold because of faulty gear when I could have backed it up with a matchbook weighing a couple grams.

That being said, there is something satisfying about having as few pieces of gear as possible -- less to think about, less to pack away. HYOH, I don't think its a critical surivival/safety issue but rather one of ease and comfort. After all, who carries back-up first aid kits?

Some people are taking tiny headlamps that put out minimal light to begin with and are 'calling it good' because they have a 'lightsource'. I'm with them on this - it's not about having the best light you possibly could, it's about having light, period.

And you're correct that by minimizing your gear there is satisfaction to be had, especially when one considers bring a "backup" first aid kit!

bemental
12-07-2015, 18:03
It all falls under HYOH. Would I recommend using a headlamp over the flashlight on a phone? Yep. The flashlight on a phone does not emit a very bright light and for less time than a headlamp. I have hiked with a weak headlamp and soon realized that I would not want to trust it in an emergency situation. I got myself a brighter headlamp that happens to weigh a little less and I am happy.

Personally, I do not see carrying a headlamp as packing my fears. I just don't happen to consider the flashlight on a phone to be my first choice as a source of light. I would consider that to be my backup if necessary. I am not one to pack my fears (the trail is one of the safest places around, but it does have the potential to be dangerous if I put myself in a bad situation) - I just consider my headlamp to be my source of light.

I have tried using lesser lights and felt that was not a wise choice for me. Your eyesight may vary. I seek knowledge to alleviate any fears I might have. I carry knowledge so I can reduce the chances of putting myself in a dangerous situation.


That's very true WR, very true. What one considers an appropriate light source will vary from person to person.

While the light on a phone isn't a "go-to" lightsource for many, it may just prove adequate enough for the majority of situations encountered on the AT.

saltysack
12-07-2015, 18:08
I find myself hiking at night almost every trip. Sometimes it's planned others it's not. In sept on my JMT hike I lost a hiking day due to an unforeseen illness...instead of 14 days I now had 13 to cover the 220 miles..my mpd just increased...i can't imagine not having a good headlight....I agree your cell phone is plenty effective as a back up...though I also carry a photon to clip in my tent. I consider my zebra light as one in my most important pieces. Trying to use a lighter with wet cold frozen fingers is a bit?!...a book of matches does the trick. All this said I'm not a gram weenie....hyoh


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coffee
12-07-2015, 18:10
I have a mini Bic and storm matches I've had forever and never used. On my last true winter hike, I took an esbit for each night in case I wanted a fire but never started one.

Starchild
12-07-2015, 18:23
A cell phone (smart phone) is a source of fire even if the battery is out. Just puncture it with a knife or rock. It's a one shot deal and don't expect to be ordering anything on amazon prime drone delivery off your smart phone to your camp site till you have a replacement battery, but yes if it's that bad you can do this.

TNhiker
12-07-2015, 18:41
Phone serves other purposes as well - music, podcasts, camera, blogging, emails back home, oh yea and as a phone when service is available.



besides the camera----all the other features are exactly the kinda crap im trying to "escape" when i go hiking..............

WingedMonkey
12-07-2015, 18:50
Especially if you:

don't hike at night



95% of my night hiking was not planned or on purpose while thru hiking.

Stuff happens.....and the idea that you will be able to just stop in your tracks when darkness catches you and bed down at that very place is not a trail reality.

Just Bill
12-07-2015, 18:57
THIS.

We carry our fears, for sure - and we all carry different items on the trail because of it.

Some prefer big, honking lights, and some find smaller lights adequate.

Garlic addressed the question for others, but let's address it for you...

Essentially, if you learn to cope with and identify the fears you are packing, then you can begin to access the validity of those fears logically.
The two best ways to do this, to an extent, involve what you are doing with this thread...
1- Ask yourself to find a reasonable scenario where this gear is needed.
2- Perform a mental exercise wherein you think through what you would do in those circumstances and access if you have enough other gear in your kit, skills in your brain, or physical abilities.

Most folks practice some form of the two is one, one is none mentality.
Some practice it literally, while some practice it practically- neither is correct if you feel confident from past experience that you have cleanly reviewed the two steps above.

Step 3 is to realize that you have nothing in isolation on your gear list.
In total you have a pack, a mind, skills, abilities and experience.
Nor is this an all or nothing proposition. One could carry no firestarting gear at all and still be safe if the other items chosen balance that choice.

One valid fear that we all should deal with is hypothermia. It robs you of your mind, which limits your skills, abilities and experience. I would call it a perfectly reasonable scenario to encounter. After a simple random bit of clumsiness related injury it springs to mind as the most likely problem or even cause of death.

One could address this through many avenues.
The most common minimum choice is a mini bic and a few fire tabs of some sort (or spare stove fuel). By far the 2 ounces spent here weigh less than-
A stove, spare clothes, or other means to address the problem. Hypothermia is dangerous simply because of it's ability to spin out of control easily if not remedied.

Again- you could solve a hypothermia scenario in many ways, but arguably the ability and 2 ounces of spare kit is the most practical on an eastern trail like the AT.
Many hikers go stoveless. Piezo ignitors do fail. You don't have to go wild and introduce falling into water or other odd things to succumb to hypothermia. It could simply involve, multiple damp chilly days in a row and going to bed too early on a below average night and waking chilled in the wee hours.

LIGHTS-
I don't disagree on any fundamental level with your one light choice. Though your kit in balance should be considered.
Waking up too chilled to sleep; one simple option is to get up and walk your way out of the chill. No fire or stove needed. But a good light would come in handy and weigh much less than other options.

One scenario specific to you, though unlikely is an injury requiring reaching help. It doesn't have to be your injury.
But with a phone as your only source of light... if making a call to emergency responders you do not have access to the light.
At camp I suppose speaker phone might work if you were aiding a fellow hiker at night- unlikely anyway. But you'd have trouble administering aide while holding a phone
If walking out and communicating with help I suppose you could use your earbuds and hold the phone while walking, though the damp of the AT tends to kill headphones often enough and if you use trekking poles normally... walking the AT at night with only one pole and limited experience walking in these conditions could lead to you being injured.

There are legit arguments to the "hands free light" on both sides. The "what if I don't reach camp(shelter) by dark" scenario is easily solved by your personal discipline to simply make camp to avoid night hiking if that's your choice.

And of course- we've all dropped our phones and cracked a screen or simply had a phone die on us.

It's a stretch though either way.

What isn't a big stretch and a hole in your whole kit I would argue is a 16 ounce battery pack. Several critical items in your approach depend on that single piece of gear. Simple dampness despite caution or waterproofing could damage it. One of the 10 falls per week an average hiker takes could damage it. Cold temps could limit it's effectiveness... I could go on. Those are reasonable issues with that piece of gear IMO.

I would consider better allocating that 16 ounces of gear. That's all.
Perhaps a AA type charger, with loose batteries coupled with a 12 ounce battery pack is a safer choice overall for the same weight.

Not getting overly personal-
I believe the battery pack and phone combo solves other critical issue for you as well. The loss of juice seems something you'd want to back up as an overall balance to your expected trail experience and past experience.

No right or wrong- just a balanced pack and a balanced mind.

Kaptainkriz
12-07-2015, 19:15
Are we talkng safety and different form of backup, or just two.....because...
I carry two lighters because I inevitably lose one of them and I get grumpy without hot coffee in the AM.

sliverstorm
12-07-2015, 19:23
We'd have 40 pound packs if we were prepared for everything that could possibly happen to us on the trail.

This is true, but fire & light are two things that are generally outsized on the payback scale. A single matchstick could save your life, and weights 0.2 grams. "Cheap insurance", I would call it.

I live in PCT country rather than AT, but out here most fatal accidents seem to involve one or more of: hypothermia, getting lost, falling.

Just Bill
12-07-2015, 19:36
This is true, but fire & light are two things that are generally outsized on the payback scale. A single matchstick could save your life, and weights 0.2 grams. "Cheap insurance", I would call it.

I live in PCT country rather than AT, but out here most fatal accidents seem to involve one or more of: hypothermia, getting lost, falling.

In the land of realistic scenarios; folks seem to ignore the general for the specific. So the logic falls apart.

If you read an accident report and look at exactly what happened, the situation is unbelievable.

If you read an accident report and look at what generally happened- totally plausible. Other than a rock falls and lands on someone's head- there is rarely a "single" thing that happens. But a long series (sometimes over multiple days) of events that lead to a bad outcome.
Hypothermic people behave drunkenly, drunken people tend to do dumb or clumsy things.
Lost people get anxious, walk faster, compound mistakes, and eventually loose their minds.

Hypothermia or getting lost is rarely listed as the cause of death- but it usually was.
Pushing a bit too long in a damp baselayer without a hot drink or taking a left instead of right is pretty dull and pretty simple. It's not A or B but the long series of small things that lead to Z. Usually nothing remarkable has happened.

You tend to hear about the unbelievable end, not the plausible and common beginning.

Though having that knowledge doesn't require you to overreact...

sliverstorm
12-07-2015, 19:53
When, for instance, will a campfire NEED to be started


You're lost or far from help, night is falling, and your down sleeping bag got wet. Rare, but unheard of? Hell, just a month ago I soaked the contents of my packet when I didn't seal the lid on my spare water bottle.


or will someone NEED to hike a long-distance at night against their will?

If you're truly in a survival situation, on the Appalachian Trail, at night, and you NEED TO MOVE, what does this even look like? When will someone NEED to be walking at night, that can't wait until the morning, that isn't going to require help from someone else anyway?

AMS/HACE/HAPE come to mind, though you are right in that those aren't considerations on the AT. Dislocated arm benefits from rapid treatment. Pulmonary edema, pneumothorax, and other internal injuries may allow you to move and are of great urgency, and can happen from a simple fall. You are right that rescuers may be in order in those scenarios, but they can take time to reach you and if you can meet them halfway down the trail you'll get out faster.

(Unlikely to happen to you? Sure)

Heck, we could apply the "multifunction" argument used in weight savings, that is the best gear is gear that serves multiple purposes. Well, light & fire can help you evade ALL KINDS of disasters. They are the most multifunctional disaster preparedness tools you could have. Think of it this way; what self-respecting wilderness disaster happens on a warm, sunny day? :p

JumpMaster Blaster
12-07-2015, 19:54
...plan better for the next day....

I have a contingency plan- that's why I bring a headlamp and two methods of making fire. Surely you've heard of having a contingency plan, a Plan B. I don't ever plan on having to hike at night, however, I may need to water a tree, visit the privy, etc at night. Ever been on Unaka? Imagine trying to find a suitable spot to "handle your business" and find your way back with 0% illumination. On Unaka, where every tree looks the exact same as the one two feet away. My career has had me in plenty of 0% illum situations, and we always brought night vision devices. It has also trained me to plan for emergencies and contingencies.

Yeah, I could shave the extra weight and not carry a headlamp (with extra batteries), a spare mini Bic lighter, or an emergency backup water purification system. I could also NOT bring a tent and camp in the shelters the entire time I'm out. I could also plan to never hike when rain is forecast, therefore eliminating the need for a rain jacket. I could also plan all my meals out exactly so I never get to my car carrying any food, but the one time I get sick, injured, lost, or end up spending an extra day out, I'm screwed. The 4.1 ounces of my prior planning prevents p*** poor performance.

Coffee
12-07-2015, 19:57
How many of us have been borderline hypothermic only to have our questionable actions pointed out by others? This happened to me on the Colorado Trail where I was hiking solo and a couple of hikers who happened to be nearby mentioned that I was shivering. I didn't notice. I was making some stupid decisions. I set up camp, got into dry clothes and my sleeping bag, ate a hot meal and was fine after a couple of hours and since then I think that I can better identify when I'm getting too chilled. I think that every solo hiker really needs to be aware of the mental aspect of hypothermia. If you haven't experienced it, you probably won't see it coming.

MuddyWaters
12-07-2015, 20:05
you are carrying POUNDS of unneeded items with a 15+ lb base wt , but not a light and matches, that could weigh < 1 oz , and be very beneficial
I carry that stuff with my gear weighing 6.5 lbs.

This reminds me of the guy with a 20 lb pack that cuts the handle off the toothbrush. going thru the motions, but missing the point really.





5.6 oz of blister kit
11. 5 oz camp shoes
17 oz battery
9 oz filter and bag
1 oz pack towel
17 oz for a jetboil








"Big Three"


Weightqty

RucksackCiloGear, 60L Work Sack
58 oz lb g kg oz


1

Quilt/BagEnlightened Equipment Revelation, 30°
19.79 oz lb g kg oz


1

Sleeping PadZ-Lite Sol
13.7 oz lb g kg oz


1

Rectangular TarpBearPaw, Cuben
8.5 oz lb g kg oz


1

BivyMountain Laurel Designs, Superlite
7.5 oz lb g kg oz


1

Tent StakesAluminum
0.45 oz lb g kg oz


5


6.86 lb
10






Clothing


Weightqty

Down JacketLL Bean
16.1 oz lb g kg oz


1

Fitted FleeceLL Bean
13.15 oz lb g kg oz


1

Rain JacketLL Bean
12.85 oz lb g kg oz


1

Camp/Water ShoesVivobarefoot Ultras II
11.5 oz lb g kg oz


1

Long Sleeve ShirtNylon
6.15 oz lb g kg oz


1

Thin GlovesOutdoor Research
0.8 oz lb g kg oz


2

SocksWool
0.8 oz lb g kg oz


2

Fleece Beanie
1.5 oz lb g kg oz


1

UndershortsSilkies, Nylon
1 oz lb g kg oz


1


4.09 lb
11






Electronics


Weightqty

Portable BatteryZendure, 19,000 mAh
17.6 oz lb g kg oz


1

PhoneiPhone 6 Plus
7.05 oz lb g kg oz


1

HeadphonesApple Earpods
0.06 oz lb g kg oz


1


1.54 lb
3






Utility


Weightqty

StoveJetBoil
16.95 oz lb g kg oz


1

Water FilterSawyer with 2L Bag
9.15 oz lb g kg oz


1

Pocket KnifeSwiss Army Knife
0.8 oz lb g kg oz


1

Duct Tape
0.75 oz lb g kg oz


1

12L DrysackCuban
1.15 oz lb g kg oz


2

Pack TowelMicrofiber
1 oz lb g kg oz


1

CutleryBamboo
0.9 oz lb g kg oz


1

Bear Line50', Dyneema Cord
0.9 oz lb g kg oz


1

6L DrysackCuban
0 oz lb g kg oz


1

AquamiraBackup
0.3 oz lb g kg oz


1


2.07 lb
11






Health/Hygiene


Weightqty

Blister KitMoleskin, Antiseptic, Leukotape
5.6 oz lb g kg oz


1

Toilet Paper
2.7 oz lb g kg oz


1

SoapDr. Bronner's
2.55 oz lb g kg oz


1

Electrolyte TabletsNuun
2.4 oz lb g kg oz


1

Brush & Paste
1.25 oz lb g kg oz


1

Pain MedicationIbuprofen
0.16 oz lb g kg oz


1


0.92 lb
6

map man
12-07-2015, 20:20
I've been backpacking for a decade and have thousands of trail miles behind me (and in front of me, I hope) and I have never brought along the means to start a fire. I don't winter hike, I've always eaten my food cold, and when I have gotten chilled on the trail getting in my sleeping bag has always gotten me warmed back up. On my last twelve day section hike I discovered on night five that my headlamp was broken and I ended up getting along fine without any light source for the last week of that hike.

I have, off and on, thought about trying a section hike with nothing that runs on batteries -- no watch, no phone, no gps, no headlamp. A hundred years ago if someone did this I doubt they would have been accused of being "irresponsible." So why now?

Sure, a series of unfortunate events could lead to something tragic, but the same could be said every time we get behind the wheel of a car.

And in case anyone is wondering, I've never bummed a hot drink or a light off of anybody in the years I've been hiking.

Coffee
12-07-2015, 20:27
Map man, what happens if all of your gear gets wet including your bag due to falling in a river, failure of whatever system you use to keep stuff dry, etc? Wouldn't a fire be the last defense against hypothermia? That's why I carried the esbits and storm matches on my winter hike of the foothills trail early this year.

bemental
12-07-2015, 20:43
I like what this thread has drawn out:

-hypothermia leads to bigger mistakes
-efficiency and practicality of gear is important
-realistic expectations are crucial, experience matters
-don't forget you're not alone, be prepared to help others
-everyone has a different comfort level of their gear and how to use it

bemental
12-07-2015, 20:47
you are carrying POUNDS of unneeded items with a 15+ lb base wt , but not a light and matches, that could weigh < 1 oz , and be very beneficial
I carry that stuff with my gear weighing 6.5 lbs.

This reminds me of the guy with a 20 lb pack that cuts the handle off the toothbrush. going thru the motions, but missing the point really.



Wrong thread. Please address in the thread entitled Gear! In! Review! (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115605-Gear!-In!-Review!)

bemental
12-07-2015, 20:53
I've been backpacking for a decade and have thousands of trail miles behind me (and in front of me, I hope) and I have never brought along the means to start a fire. I don't winter hike, I've always eaten my food cold, and when I have gotten chilled on the trail getting in my sleeping bag has always gotten me warmed back up. On my last twelve day section hike I discovered on night five that my headlamp was broken and I ended up getting along fine without any light source for the last week of that hike.

I have, off and on, thought about trying a section hike with nothing that runs on batteries -- no watch, no phone, no gps, no headlamp. A hundred years ago if someone did this I doubt they would have been accused of being "irresponsible." So why now?

Sure, a series of unfortunate events could lead to something tragic, but the same could be said every time we get behind the wheel of a car.

And in case anyone is wondering, I've never bummed a hot drink or a light off of anybody in the years I've been hiking.


I like your style, map man, and I hope you do embark on your battery-less hike soon.

Heliotrope
12-07-2015, 20:55
I believe the top two causes of backcountry death are falling and hypothermia. Being able to have warm beverages/food, dry insulation and shelter is essential. Just carry the fire starters. Falling can happen any time of day. Like many posters have said, moving after dark may not be necessary or even wise. But when it is, a light source might prevent those falls. Just carry the 3 oz headlamp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

garlic08
12-07-2015, 22:23
...I have, off and on, thought about trying a section hike with nothing that runs on batteries -- no watch, no phone, no gps, no headlamp. A hundred years ago if someone did this I doubt they would have been accused of being "irresponsible." So why now?....

Yeah, let's check John Muir's gear list and see what kind of flashlight he carried.

On my AT thru hike, I lost my headlamp and I hiked about a week before I could replace it. That week was strangely liberating and I nearly didn't replace it. I've used it very seldom since then. I no longer carry spare batteries for it, since it's such an unimportant part of my hiking.

The same thing has happened for other items--pocket knife, eating utensils, tent poles and stakes. The ULer's mantra--if you don't have it, you don't need it! I'm sure there's still room in at least one of those graveyards for me.

hikerhobs
12-07-2015, 23:00
Since I do all my backpacking in the winter months, I carry fire starters, headlamps, and other things that will help me be prepared for what Mother Nature throws at me. Winter hiking is a whole lot different than hiking in the summer.

Odd Man Out
12-07-2015, 23:05
I try to have a backup plan for most critical gear. But while the primary gear is chosen for optimum performance, the backup is likely to be minimal or multi use item meant just to get by in a pinch. A book of matches weighs close to nothing and lives is a baggie until the lighter fails. This way I can cook supper and avoid hunger pangs that turn me into an ax murderer when someone passes gas in the shelter. The light from a cell phone is enough to find a tree in middle of the night.

colorado_rob
12-08-2015, 00:04
Wrong thread. Please address in the thread entitled Gear! In! Review! (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115605-Gear!-In!-Review!)I disagree. Great response for this thread.

My 2 ounces of fire starting equipment (WP matches and a small piece of fire starter), carried for 4 decades of backpacking has saved my bacon once (I was hopelessly lost in woods after dark, campfire saved my life). Used it for comfort more times than I can count. Less critical is the headlamp, but at 1.7 ounces for 40 nice bright lumens, it has been very very convenient to have many times allowing me to reach a goal (peak). The total weight of 3.7 ounces does affect my 9 pound summer baseweight, but is so worth it.

As MW implies, I see folks carrying pounds and pounds of useless junk (big knives, saws, lots of rope, extra shoes, chairs, machetes, axes, skillets, Nalgene bottles, etc, etc), yet brag about "saving weight" by not carrying two of the ten essentials. Have fun out there in the dark and the cold!

Casey & Gina
12-08-2015, 01:45
It's all about tradeoffs. There aren't many necessities... means to keep warm and dry are the main ones. Fire is not a necessity at all if you have a warm sleeping bag. Neither is light. Many nights you can navigate the trail in the dark - eyes adjust and as long as you move slow and cautiously, safety need not be an issue. When I have used my headlamp for night hiking it is in proximity mode at minimum brightness. If I go out for a week I am in lined to take a lot less than if I go out for months...but that's because I want more comforts for a longer period.

The biggest danger out there is fear leading to irrational decisions, not lack of some "save the day" item. One doesn't "need" to reach a particular place to camp, to sleep or eat if circumstances make either difficult. One doesn't need a light or fire. But on a long trek I am happy to carry along plenty of extra essentials for comfort, including a big knife, lol. ;) I carry 3 or 4 ways to make fire, but sometimes never use any of them. And we each have a headlamp, but rarely use them. When it's dark I like to be asleep.

JaketheFake
12-08-2015, 02:38
It's a good thing no one on here as an opinion! Lol. Here's mine and it's only mine....
Regarding a way to start fire I don't even smoke and I carry a lighter most of the time... It's the most primal offering to offer someone fire when they need it and they don't have it. Plus it's a great way to meet hippie chicks at jamband shows!

Regarding the headlamps I just don't like them. I agree with the post above most the time if you let your eyes adjust you would be amazed at what you can see at night. That being said when I start my hike this spring I won't have a headlamp but I certainly will have a light source other than an iPhone. So it's not a matter of light versus no light it's more matter of the style of light. But again you could do a lot with your own eyes just give them a moment to adjust but everybody on here is an expert hiker so they should know that.

rocketsocks
12-08-2015, 04:15
Oh Horsefeathers! sometimes it's just easier to have a spare pack of matches or another light cause the piece a junk ya brought quit working...got nothing to do with fear.

MuddyWaters
12-08-2015, 04:38
Aint no fear.
If its not really cold, im packing up in the dark and getting moving well before light.
The hour before sunrise is the best hour of day to be on trail.(sans spider webs)

At night i usually look at maps or guidebook pages for a while while lying down, and figure out what i will probably shoot for the next day.

Convenience. And miles.

Traveler
12-08-2015, 07:11
First, this post is not meant to troll anyone.

Many people on the forums seem to have the mantra of "I always have two sources of fire, and two sources of light" - meaning a bic lighter and some waterproof matches, and two light sources, perhaps a cell phone and a headlamp.

I'd love to hear what scenarios people are coming up with that "two is one, one is none" applies to these items under AT Thru Hike Conditions.

Short of some sort of crazy wild animal attack in the middle of the night during an ice storm of epic proportions, I'm at a loss as to why people are so hung up on being able to start a fire, or see at night.


Especially if you:

don't hike at night
are in the bag before dark
rise with the sun
have the appropriate gear for the season you're in


Some of the scenarios that have been proposed are so fantastical as to be from the hiker horror stories section, and as such no flashlight or bic lighter would be of any use anyway.


Remember, this is going to be a Devil's Advocate thread, no personal battles to be fought or won.

One misstep in a water crossing and you and your gear are soaked, its 5:30 pm, dark, wind rising, weather on the way, and temperatures are in the mid 30's and dropping. Hands get numb very fast and working the little lighter on the Jet Boil is difficult with warm practiced hands. You sure you don't want a fire?

The head lamp is a bit different, however how easy do you find packing, tying knots with cold fingers, cooking, or other activities with one hand? Lots of stories of walking hundreds of miles without lights, which is very doable but what is the cost of one poorly timed stumble/fall that breaks a bone on a root that could've been avoided had there been even a small bit of light.

Neither of these are "fantastical" or a hiker horror story. You can probably experience either of these scenarios close to home on any typical day from mid November through mid March.

I should also make mention that not having that simple back up gear could get you fined for the cost of rescue, never mind putting others at risk in recovering you. Something to think about for the 4 ounces involved.

cbr6fs
12-08-2015, 07:57
Been hiking/backpacking for 30+ years, not lit a single fire in that time.
Never fallen into a river either.

Have had my clothing drenched from constant non stop rain for days on end, no fire needed in those cases.

Do have experience getting fires started in other hobbies, in my experience if you're cold, wet and with wet kit there is absolutely no guarantee you can get a fire going.

Even IF you carry fire starting blocks are you 100% sure there will be fuel to burn close enough to you to be useful?
Where i hike this is certainly NOT the case.


If i were concerned about falling into a river or my kit getting wet i would use Synthetic insulation rather than down.
IF i got wet and cold i would rather dive into my synthetic clothing, then into my synthetic sleeping bag rather than mess about trying to find fuel dry enough to burn then get a fire started.


I do carry a good torch, i've found this to be VERY useful, some of the uses for my torches i remember from trips:

Restaking the tent at night (high winds)
Moving the tent at night (area getting water logged)
Fixing kit (backpacks, shoes etc that have had problems during the day)
Removing ticks
Searching for kit in the tent (ear plugs etc)
Health care (checking feet etc)
Night time toilet trips
Bailing at night (bad weather, health etc)
Signalling
Reading maps, books etc

A phone light could probably do most of that, i'd want to make sure 100% the phone is waterproof though as in several instances rain has played a major part.
The other problem is, i don't always have my phone turned on, so to get from needing a light to finding the phone, turn it on then start the application can take a few mins, not great if a peg has pulled out during the night in high winds.

Biggest problem i've found with phone lights though is that the beam is very very poor quality, it's tough to see anything more than a few meters away, even then there are artefacts everywhere.
I've also found that heat management is a problem on phones when using the light for extended times.

Last nail in the coffin for me though is that my phone is my GPS and communication device, i'd sooner save the battery for that in case it was needed rather than use it as a device it wasn't designed or intended for (for long periods of time).

It's not like a decent headtorch is heavy.
My Zebralight H52w weighs 70g with a Energizer lithium battery installed, that's including the head strap.
As a comparison a extra battery for my phone weighs 40g, so it's a 30g weight penalty AND it's waterproof unlike the majority of phones.

saltysack
12-08-2015, 09:05
I doubt many folks could hike +\~20 mpd during the middle of winter without a light...add ice to the mix...no adequate light source = stupidity....just my opinion...opinions are like arse holes...everyone has one..this winter I only have 4 days to do the FHT....77 miles = night hiking


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Puddlefish
12-08-2015, 10:01
Hike your own hike of course. My lightsources are those tiny button LED keychain type lights. I tend to have a small pile of them, can buy them in bulk for a few bucks. Can tape one to the bill of my cap, leave one in the tent, store one with the emergency firestarter kit, the first aid kit. I don't plan on them lasting all that long, so there's some redundancy needed with my method. I tend to quit hiking well before sunset, and well before I start getting too sloppy when I'm tired at the end of a day, I don't really test my limits on the trail, and haven't had to limp out after dark yet. Thus, my lighting plan works for me, but it may not work for you. Two sources of fire, heck yeah. I've never once got into a situation where I needed a fire, other than for comfort cooking. However, I've been known to misplace items before, including my lighter. Which would leave me with without any reliable fire starter in the case of emergency. I haven't tried the two sticks and a firebow method since scouting 40 years ago.

PAFranklin
12-08-2015, 10:38
In summer on the AT I wouldn't have much of a problem hiking with only one source to make fire. Winter time I would definitely have a backup. I often carry a butane stove which has a peizo starter. So I really have a backup as part of the stove.

As to lights. Well first as you age your eyes tend to require more light to see fine details or earlier at dusk. So I find I need a light more often. Oddly with about 55 years of outdoor experience I am just now starting to use headlamps. They now seem indispensable. I always take a second light along as a backup. This comes from experience either in emergencies or light failures.

Cannon
12-08-2015, 10:52
I just want to point out that when you need some of these things "in an emergency" you may not be the one in danger. What if its around dusk, your 5 miles away from a road, and you round the corner to find a freezing cold day hiker with a broken leg. A dedicated light source and a way to quickly start a fire would be nice.

The Solemates
12-08-2015, 11:19
First off, I consider myself a minimalist. I like to use bush skills as much as I can. Yet, here is my take knowing that:

I always carry a single light source. I consider it a luxury item. I'm one of the few who like hiking in winter better than summer. During winter it gets dark at 4pm. I cant go to bed then...or even at 6...or 8. So I have several hours in which light would be beneficial. I can get by cooking etc without it, but during these times I like to read a lot (regardless of the time of year). I bring a headlamp to do this. During my thru hike I read every night for at least 15 minutes, sometimes an hour or more. I have never brought more than one source of light though, nor have I ever brought extra batteries. I always switch out my batteries to fresh ones before every longish trip to ensure they are new with full brightness.

As for fire source, I do bring two of these.

1) I always bring a lighter. I use it to start my stove. I do not like the self-igniting stoves. Inevitably the igniter goes out during a long trip and its the trip you decided to leave the lighter at home thinking you do not need it because you have a self-igniting stove. So that will never happen to me again...and so I bring a lighter even if I have a self-igniting stove. I only purchase non-self-igniting stoves now. This lighter is also used to start fires, especially if I am hiking without a stove. I hike without a stove often and just cook over a fire. But again, in the fall or winter I also read by the campfire or just stare at the flames during the 5+ hours I have before bed.

2) On long trips only I carry a small set of waterproof matches and some rubber for firestarter in a ziploc. This weighs an ounce and its a good emergency backup, especially if the temperatures are 5 degrees out. In the summer its not as big of a deal. But I have never been great at fire-starting without some external source. I do not usually carry this ziplock on weekend trips. I figure I could walk out or get by before needing it for survival.

cmoulder
12-08-2015, 11:20
Quite the spectrum here, from carrying no lights to (in another thread) a 960-lumen klieglight.

My choice of the Photon for high summer (dark at 9pm, light at 4:30am) was chastised on another forum as being ridiculously inadequate for "such a critical piece of safety gear". I don't care; that's my considered choice.

Strong opinions are usually expressed by people with a lot of experience, skill, ingenuity and self-reliance. They know what they want and need for their particular location, goals and style of hiking, and can figure out what to do if 'things go south' and aren't going to blame anyone but themselves.

So it doesn't matter what someone else thinks you and I should carry. If somebody wants to carry a 3000-lumen Q-beam it's fine by me because I don't have to carry it.

Casey & Gina
12-08-2015, 11:25
Anyone who hikes with anything less than this is a fool:

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o694/cshobe/Cars/1978%20Euro%206_9/b63df69ab45ea73202b5722a69469bb8_zpsd87938b8.jpg

;) Haha, sorry for the troll!

cmoulder
12-08-2015, 11:31
OK, but be careful where you point that thing, bro! :eek:

rocketsocks
12-08-2015, 11:47
Anyone who hikes with anything less than this is a fool:

http://i1338.photobucket.com/albums/o694/cshobe/Cars/1978%20Euro%206_9/b63df69ab45ea73202b5722a69469bb8_zpsd87938b8.jpg

;) Haha, sorry for the troll!dual purpose...you could start a fire with that thing, leave the matches home.

cbr6fs
12-08-2015, 12:02
I just want to point out that when you need some of these things "in an emergency" you may not be the one in danger. What if its around dusk, your 5 miles away from a road, and you round the corner to find a freezing cold day hiker with a broken leg. A dedicated light source and a way to quickly start a fire would be nice.

Have to say that i find it odd that your first reaction would be to light a fire.

In your unlikely scenario how do you know 100% there would be enough fuel for a fire large enough to warm someone through?
I've been stood within inches of fires and still had my back chilled.

For a cold casualty why light a fire rather wrap your/their extra clothing round them and/or your sleeping bag?
Seems if you have the kit with you it'd be a bit daft to ignore them then spend the next few hours trying to light then find enough fuel to sustain a fire.

Personally if i ever came upon that scenario i'd through my tent up and get the person to crawl inside.
As there is absolutely no way i'd be happy with having my tent anywhere near a fire it'd be the last thing i'd want

Hikemor
12-08-2015, 12:23
The quote from Slo-g'en says all that needs to be said.

colorado_rob
12-08-2015, 12:32
Been hiking/backpacking for 30+ years, not lit a single fire in that time.
Never fallen into a river either.Well, I've been driving for nearly 45 years, never once have I ever actually needed my seatbelt. WHY on earth have I been wearing that damn thing all these decades????

Somewhere on here someone made an attempt at a John Muir analogy, how he never carried a lamp. Well, he didn't have access to one, did he? And he built fires all the time, so he certainly carried a fire source. He also died, sadly, a complete nut case because he didn't get his way one time (heheche dam). There's a lesson there....

PAFranklin
12-08-2015, 12:49
I just want to point out that when you need some of these things "in an emergency" you may not be the one in danger. What if its around dusk, your 5 miles away from a road, and you round the corner to find a freezing cold day hiker with a broken leg. A dedicated light source and a way to quickly start a fire would be nice.


Yes. More than once I loaned out my backup light to some one who forgot, lost , or broke their light.

Traillium
12-08-2015, 13:06
I haven't tried the two sticks and a firebow method since scouting 40 years ago.

I used to teach survival technologies, and am quite efficient at using fire-by-friction. [19 seconds from start to open flame with kit made entirely using stone tools — but using the most carefully curated materials]
Only once have I deliberately tried making a kit out on a trail using only found materials, except for lone stone knife-edge I was carrying. Took me 25 minutes from start to finish, though that was starting with having already made a very very lucky find of an exposed piece of cottonwood root nearby to some very dry old white cedar inner bark tinder (and 'cheating' using a moccasin lace).
My takeaway? That while I know how to apply these and other wilderness skills, in an emergency situation it would take me a very long time to actually put them into action.
My solution? Carry a second mini-bic + some strike-anywhere matches in a match safe. And be prepared to walk out of possible. And most critically, live safely within my means.



Bruce Traillium

squeezebox
12-08-2015, 13:35
I wonder how many people that decide to leave out gear because of wt. like fire starter, light, stove, maps, filter, . How willing are they to ask to borrow my map, stove, got any extra water? If you decide to leave stuff at home, live with it. I'm willing to carry some things to be safer when I hike. But also I'm 61 not 21.

rocketsocks
12-08-2015, 13:44
I just want to point out that when you need some of these things "in an emergency" you may not be the one in danger. What if its around dusk, your 5 miles away from a road, and you round the corner to find a freezing cold day hiker with a broken leg. A dedicated light source and a way to quickly start a fire would be nice.I like the way you think brada, always help your fellow man. The Scout motto still holds true for me "be prepared"

cbr6fs
12-08-2015, 13:55
Well, I've been driving for nearly 45 years, never once have I ever actually needed my seatbelt. WHY on earth have I been wearing that damn thing all these decades????

Have you ever had to light a fire to save your life?



Somewhere on here someone made an attempt at a John Muir analogy, how he never carried a lamp. Well, he didn't have access to one, did he? And he built fires all the time, so he certainly carried a fire source. He also died, sadly, a complete nut case because he didn't get his way one time (heheche dam). There's a lesson there....

Struggling to see the point here.
He didn't have access to modern materials, he did the best with what he had, just like we do our best with what we have.

Imagine if every hiker started lighting fires every night rather than take the appropriate clothing/bedding, the trails would be destroyed within a couple of years.
So again it's a pretty poor analogy.

Not that that is the main problem with the thought process behind starting fires to keep you warm in emergency situations.

The main problems are:
You can't guarantee there will be enough materials to keep you warm throughout the night
You can't guarantee you can get a fire going 100% of the time
You can't guarantee you can keep said fire going

In my experience and in the areas i hike all 3 would be a big NO

Even IF you manage all 3 above, the fire is still only going to keep the front of you warm.
Even laying right next to a fire it's easily possible to get hypothermia.


Think of it this way

If you fell into a river and got everything soaked there are 2 scenarios

1/ You're cold but still able bodied
The absolute worst thing you can do in this situation is sit down and try to mess about getting a fire going.
By far the best thing you can do is get walking, get your body to generate some heat, cram some nuts or trail mix down your throat.
It's surprising how quickly you can dry clothes if you get your bodies radiator going

2/ You're injured
If you're injured how do you suppose you are going to collect enough fuel to keep a fire that's big enough to keep you warm, roaring through the night?

As i say IF get your kit wet through:
1/ Keep your sleeping bag and insulation clothing in dry bags
2/ Buy synthetic base layers and insulation

Easier, safer and a hell of a lot more reliable than trying to get a fire going

perdidochas
12-08-2015, 15:08
First, this post is not meant to troll anyone.

Many people on the forums seem to have the mantra of "I always have two sources of fire, and two sources of light" - meaning a bic lighter and some waterproof matches, and two light sources, perhaps a cell phone and a headlamp.

I'd love to hear what scenarios people are coming up with that "two is one, one is none" applies to these items under AT Thru Hike Conditions.

Short of some sort of crazy wild animal attack in the middle of the night during an ice storm of epic proportions, I'm at a loss as to why people are so hung up on being able to start a fire, or see at night.


Especially if you:

don't hike at night
are in the bag before dark
rise with the sun
have the appropriate gear for the season you're in


Some of the scenarios that have been proposed are so fantastical as to be from the hiker horror stories section, and as such no flashlight or bic lighter would be of any use anyway.


Remember, this is going to be a Devil's Advocate thread, no personal battles to be fought or won.

I agree on the flashlight, especially in this day of LEDs. No need for redundancy unless you are a night hiker. I disagree with the fire starting. You never know what can go wrong, and why you might need a fire to keep warm. I carry a mini-bic, and a Hot spark ferro rod. Togehter they way maybe 2 oz.

perdidochas
12-08-2015, 15:12
Examples from another post:



Nothing against Slo-go'en, merely an example.

When, for instance, will a campfire NEED to be started, or will someone NEED to hike a long-distance at night against their will?

While a campfire is incredibly useful during a survival situation (we'll say being wet and in below freezing temps), how often will a thru hiker have every item in their pack become completely drenched and have to start a fire?

Also, walking long-distances at night, when does this happen in a survival/save-your-life context? If you're truly in a survival situation, on the Appalachian Trail, at night, and you NEED TO MOVE, what does this even look like? When will someone NEED to be walking at night, that can't wait until the morning, that isn't going to require help from someone else anyway?

I think being able to start a fire is important. It's a heat source, and a signalling source. Yes, there is almost no need for it for a typical thru hiker, but for the ones that do need it, it's indispensable. I agree about a light being more optional for most backpackers. That said, as a Boy Scout leader, I have to have at least a flashlight. Should an emergency happen, I'm not just responsible for myself, but for the Scouts as well.

Hangfire
12-08-2015, 15:14
I definitely agree with keeping your sleeping bag in a dry bag, there's no better peace of mind than knowing you have a dry sleeping bag.

fghester
12-08-2015, 15:41
OCD Ultralight guy that I am, I'm also OCD about safety. Don't laugh, but the old Boy Scout Motto applies here (yes, I was one for many years). Finally, I extend my thinking to other hikers in my "hiker community". Should I happen to cross paths with a hiker who depends on these things, and has lost their lighter / light source or they have failed, I can give them my spare. I try to be prepared to meet all of my own needs and also be in a position to help others in a pinch....and, an extra lighter / small light source, weighs very little.

fghester
12-08-2015, 15:45
OCD Ultralight guy that I am, I'm also OCD about safety. Don't laugh, but the old Boy Scout Motto applies here (yes, I was one for many years). Finally, I extend my thinking to other hikers in my "hiker community". Should I happen to cross paths with a hiker who depends on these things, and has lost their lighter / light source or they have failed, I can give them my spare. I try to be prepared to meet all of my own needs and also be in a position to help others in a pinch....and, an extra lighter / small light source, weighs very little.

paule
12-08-2015, 15:49
I carry a headlamp and small mini mag light,I carry a fire start a bic and waterproof matches.

squeezebox
12-08-2015, 17:02
I'm just guessing here. But if we were to check in with Maslov and his hierarchy of needs that he wrote. He would say, Yea! bring an extra mini bic. An extra 1 oz flashlight or an even lighter photon light? He'ld say "sure bring it to". Who knows what might happen?
I'm just guessing!!
Better safe than dead!!

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 17:10
My takeaway? That while I know how to apply these and other wilderness skills, in an emergency situation it would take me a very long time to actually put them into action.
My solution? Carry a second mini-bic + some strike-anywhere matches in a match safe. And be prepared to walk out of possible. And most critically, live safely within my means.
Bruce Traillium

Pretty well my take-away as well... I would never go so far as to call it a parlor trick as the skill teaches much about fire in general- but nothing beats flicking a bic.
I suppose the kids call it bushcraft now, but in the east and midwest I'd say the quick debris bed or simple debris pile shelter would be my choice before coaxing a coal. If nothing else the effort involved gets the heart pumping and keeps the mind focused and active on a productive task.

I too agree with CBR6Fs- a fire is rarely more effective than simply burrowing in your bag or taking shelter- for you or when rendering aide. The only trouble with it in my opinion- if solo; it's a passive activity. Unless you have confidence and past experience the average person is likely to let their mind get the best of them while laying there waiting for the danger to pass.

What fire truly excels at is mental stability and a sense of normalcy. Very few of us will ever encounter a bad situation, and in a horrible situation (fall, serious injury, or fatal injury) it's already over. By far the most dangerous thing that can realistically happen is to lose your rational mind in a poor situation. In any practical situation the best thing you can do is to take a time out and regain control of things before they spin out. When lost, chilled, or seeing the first sign on the road from poor to bad; few things are more powerful than simply stopping and starting a fire. A fire says home (camp), a fire says safe, a fire says control.

Do you need that ability? Some don't... there are many tools for dealing with a setback. But fire is a good one that most folks have experience with.

The big downside to fire, is the reality of failure and that mental setback that results. I think that's the reason so many are invested in ensuring that fire falls in the "two is one and one is none" category. It's not the fire itself, but the mental anchor it provides.

Whatever you do- as long as your choice makes you feel confident and competent, you'll likely remain so.

Mags
12-08-2015, 17:10
Here's a photo of a recent trip I took.... It was over the hills and far away...

32911

Casey & Gina
12-08-2015, 17:15
Here's a photo of a recent trip I took.... It was over the hills and far away...

Here's one of mine:

32912

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 17:26
Here's a photo of a recent trip I took.... It was over the hills and far away...

32911

Thankfully the wildfire situation is still good out here and no lantern bans have been instituted yet.

...Guessing bout a thing, you really oughtta know.

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 17:27
Here's one of mine:

32912

Looks like that closed cell foam problem of yours is almost under control.

Mags
12-08-2015, 17:30
Thankfully the wildfire situation is still good out here and no lantern bans have been instituted yet.

...Guessing bout a thing, you really oughtta know.

You know, I should.

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 17:34
LOL, a fine song... you could find a line in that song that applies to durn near any thread of late.

BirdBrain
12-08-2015, 17:54
My backup to my ignitor is a mini bic. My backup to my Petzl e+LITE is time. The sun will eventually rise.

Cannon
12-08-2015, 18:22
Have to say that i find it odd that your first reaction would be to light a fire.

In your unlikely scenario how do you know 100% there would be enough fuel for a fire large enough to warm someone through?
I've been stood within inches of fires and still had my back chilled.

For a cold casualty why light a fire rather wrap your/their extra clothing round them and/or your sleeping bag?
Seems if you have the kit with you it'd be a bit daft to ignore them then spend the next few hours trying to light then find enough fuel to sustain a fire.

Personally if i ever came upon that scenario i'd through my tent up and get the person to crawl inside.
As there is absolutely no way i'd be happy with having my tent anywhere near a fire it'd be the last thing i'd want

I find it odd that you would just assume I wanted to immediately make a bonfire in the woods. I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

cbr6fs
12-08-2015, 18:41
I too agree with CBR6Fs- a fire is rarely more effective than simply burrowing in your bag or taking shelter- for you or when rendering aide. The only trouble with it in my opinion- if solo; it's a passive activity. Unless you have confidence and past experience the average person is likely to let their mind get the best of them while laying there waiting for the danger to pass.

Should clarify my position here.
I was taking the "fell into a river" scenario, in this case i would keep on hiking rather than borrow into my sleeping bag.

As i tend to wear synthetic clothing now days i wouldn't even change, i'd just pick up my pace for the first 40 mins to get generator going, cram some trail mix or nuts down my throat and keep on hiking.

If it was raining then i'd keep on hiking but reassess after 20 mins to make sure i was drier then when i got out the river.

If i was lost or injured only would i bed down for the night.


Problem with relying of fire in a emergency is the thing everyone avoids answering.

What do you do if you are injured?

There is absolutely no way you could round up enough wood to start and keep a large enough fire going to warm you through the night if you're seriously injured.

If people want camp fires that's their choice depending on local regulations and/or common sense.
But to rely on a fire as some sort of magical bail out in a emergency situation is a set up for failure IMO

Coffee
12-08-2015, 18:53
I'm not sure that continuing to hike can ward off hypothermia for very long. The time that I felt like I was borderline hypothermic on the Colorado Trail I was hiking pretty hard and stopped briefly to talk with the other hikers and they noticed I was shivering and my speech wasn't all that coherent. I didn't realize any of this. To get warm I had to set up my camp, get into dry clothes and my down sleeping bag and eat a hot meal and I was fine after a couple of hours. If I didn't have dry clothes or a functional sleeping bag (if it got wet somehow) I don't know what other than fire could be a last resort.

Traillium
12-08-2015, 19:18
I too agree with CBR6Fs- a fire is rarely more effective than simply burrowing in your bag or taking shelter- for you or when rendering aide. The only trouble with it in my opinion- if solo; it's a passive activity. Unless you have confidence and past experience the average person is likely to let their mind get the best of them while laying there waiting for the danger to pass.

What fire truly excels at is mental stability and a sense of normalcy. Very few of us will ever encounter a bad situation, and in a horrible situation (fall, serious injury, or fatal injury) it's already over. By far the most dangerous thing that can realistically happen is to lose your rational mind in a poor situation. In any practical situation the best thing you can do is to take a time out and regain control of things before they spin out. When lost, chilled, or seeing the first sign on the road from poor to bad; few things are more powerful than simply stopping and starting a fire. A fire says home (camp), a fire says safe, a fire says control.



The big downside to fire, is the reality of failure and that mental setback that results. I think that's the reason so many are invested in ensuring that fire falls in the "two is one and one is none" category. It's not the fire itself, but the mental anchor it provides.


Spot on — on both counts, Just Bill!

I'm treasuring these nuggets. I'm a beginner hiker, though I've lived and worked outdoors most of my life. There's so much new to understand!


Bruce Traillium

MuddyWaters
12-08-2015, 19:20
I'm not sure that continuing to hike can ward off hypothermia for very long. The time that I felt like I was borderline hypothermic on the Colorado Trail I was hiking pretty hard and stopped briefly to talk with the other hikers and they noticed I was shivering and my speech wasn't all that coherent. I didn't realize any of this. To get warm I had to set up my camp, get into dry clothes and my down sleeping bag and eat a hot meal and I was fine after a couple of hours. If I didn't have dry clothes or a functional sleeping bag (if it got wet somehow) I don't know what other than fire could be a last resort.

It depends on how strenuous.
In 40s and rain I have been pretty darn cold on moderate terrain, losing heat because terrain wasnt strenuous enough, hiking at 3mph.
Stop, pitch shelter fast, eat snack, get into sleep insulation and nod off shivering with numb toes. Wake up 1.5 hrs later toasty. Good feeling.

I am a proponent of always having insulation rated for at least 10F more than the expected conditions for this reason, you dont generate heat fast when you are in a chilled state and it takes longer for you to warm up if your insulation is marginal.

If you are wet, it may be impossible.

rocketsocks
12-08-2015, 20:31
Some of the scenarios that have been proposed are so fantastical as to be from the hiker horror stories section, and as such no flashlight or bic lighter would be of any use anyway.
Yes, whats so fantastical is the 5 pages and counting of Minutiae to justify wet matches and dead battery syndrome...in true WB fashion, just to damn funny.

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 20:32
Hypothermia is hard, and the most legitimate thing to fear. While you can medically define it, that part of things isn't that important.
It's like the Dark Side of the Force and really comes down to knowing yourself. When you're solo you have to "trust your feeling's Luke" more than anything.
The best weapon is experience having encountered it, which is dangerous to learn on your own.


I'm not sure that continuing to hike can ward off hypothermia for very long. The time that I felt like I was borderline hypothermic on the Colorado Trail I was hiking pretty hard and stopped briefly to talk with the other hikers and they noticed I was shivering and my speech wasn't all that coherent. you had hypothermia.
Medically it breaks down roughly as; mild, medium, severe. Dismissing mild hypothermia is the biggest mistake, you were borderline mild/medium IMO. "I was just shivering" is a fine thing to say standing outside the bar with your buddies acting tough, but should ring alarm bells in your head when solo in the woods. It's not just shivering, it's hypothermia.

I didn't realize any of this.
That's hypothermia...a lack of ability to self diagnose is what makes it so dangerous. Without that intervention it's not a huge stretch for you to continue to hike, as that seems reasonable to stay warm and it's what we do. From there either that error compounds and things go south or you stop and correct the problem as you did...

To get warm I had to set up my camp, get into dry clothes and my down sleeping bag and eat a hot meal and I was fine after a couple of hours. If I didn't have dry clothes or a functional sleeping bag (if it got wet somehow) I don't know what other than fire could be a last resort.

You were hiking hard- burning lots of energy, and depleting your reserves.
You were sweaty and damp from hiking hard and exposing yourself to varied climate in an alpine setting. (changing temps, winds, ridgeline exposures, etc.)
You were in ideal hypothermia conditions- not so cold you took it seriously but cold enough to be serious.

Likely you got hypothermia on a ridge (why wind shirts have gotten so popular) and like many you went up hot and sweaty- then hit the double whammy of flatter terrain, easier hiking, and greater exposure. You probably got a chill, kicked it into gear and picked up the pace. You may have even felt that first hard shiver and slipped on a layer. We all expect to get chilled on a ridge- no biggie- we just hike through it. So you did.

But somewhere in there- your body just got a bit tired. Nothing major. You were trying to burn calories to hike, trying to burn them to dry damp clothes, trying to burn them to stay warm and you ran a bit short. Probably got a hair dehydrated too, or maybe you did the right thing and chugged a liter of water- which was from a cold mountain stream... so add a liter of water to heat up to the calorie count. No hard breathing Lord Vader waving an angry red warning at you... just some normal behaviour creeping up. That's hypothermia.

Maybe as simple as you needed 300 calories that hour and you only had 290 to burn, maybe you shoveled in some food, but your body was too busy to divert blood and calories to digesting it as your muscles were still calling for those resources.

So to your point- no you can't always hike your way out, but it can work to break the slide. In your case slipping from mild to medium a brief jog to ramp up the heat would have helped. It's just as likely that you had mild hypothermia and literally that brief stop to speak to the hikers kicked you into medium symptoms.

If you recognize that you are sliding, it works well to pick up the pace for a brief bit just prior to stopping. Sometimes a hard stop in the right conditions can be just as bad. You should also make an attempt to rehearse what you plan to do and where you will do it prior to stopping. Keep moving while you scan for the spot to pull over and know what you are going to do when you stop.

People with medium to severe symptoms have pulled over and literally lost their train of thought when stopping to pull on an extra layer. It is not uncommon to find people with full packs, a tent set up but unoccupied, or simply sitting with a jacket in their hand "resting". Hypothermia at it's worst is just plain weird and generally inexplicable.

Know yourself... what you can tolerate, recover from, and what that means to you and your body.
Until you know the answers- do not let mild symptoms slide beyond your control.
Common Hypothermia is ridiculously easy to treat if not ignored, unfortunately it is ridiculously easy to ignore.

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 20:52
Should clarify my position here.
I was taking the "fell into a river" scenario, in this case i would keep on hiking rather than borrow into my sleeping bag.

As i tend to wear synthetic clothing now days i wouldn't even change, i'd just pick up my pace for the first 40 mins to get generator going, cram some trail mix or nuts down my throat and keep on hiking.

If it was raining then i'd keep on hiking but reassess after 20 mins to make sure i was drier then when i got out the river.

If i was lost or injured only would i bed down for the night.


Problem with relying of fire in a emergency is the thing everyone avoids answering.

What do you do if you are injured?

There is absolutely no way you could round up enough wood to start and keep a large enough fire going to warm you through the night if you're seriously injured.

If people want camp fires that's their choice depending on local regulations and/or common sense.
But to rely on a fire as some sort of magical bail out in a emergency situation is a set up for failure IMO

Yar, ain't much debate there.

The only counterpoint I'd make... is making a redman's fire. Much can be done with very little relatively quickly.
I don't think I'd try a blanket fire with my synthetic quilts... but I've done that with a wool blanket.
And you don't need much of a fire to make a hot drink, put a little light in the dark, or summon a small companion to keep you company while you come up with a plan.

A cheery little fire is a nice restart in any scenario(real or imagined).
A big blazin bonfire has little or no place in the woods unless signaling for help IMO.

To the hypothermia bent of this thread- often an armful of twigs, easily collected while walking is enough wood to accomplish the task of warm food and cheer.
A hot drink can do more for you in 15 minutes than any other solution short of changing into dry clothes and sleeping gear... and both can be done safely at the same time with out risking damaging gear or making an elaborate camp. A small fire can be built under even a cuben tarp without freaking out too much. An esbit tab and a Swiss army Classic more than up to the task of splitting a few fingersized twigs in wet conditions. A task made even easier from the comfort of your sleeping bag.

Again- (not directed at anyone personally)- don't look at anything as an all or nothing solution in isolation.
It isn't fire or not, this or that... it's having enough gear, knowledge, and sense to put together a plan that fits using what you have.

Just as relevant to the OP... having these skills and "backups" let you leave that "maybe I need it" layer of clothing at home, or perhaps skip the "just in case" jetboil canister knowing you can boil a meal on a fire to stretch it. What folks tend to miss about UL is that there are many options, many of them counterintuitive on a spreadsheet.

Often saving weight is about adding a few ounces of insurance to cover a pound of risk.

Coffee
12-08-2015, 21:07
Some good comments Just Bill, thanks. I had made some poor decisions earlier that afternoon. I ascended above tree line toward a small pass as a storm blew in quickly and initially I decided to sit it out in a low spot that I perceived to be low risk from lightning. After putting up my shelter and sitting in my shelter praying for 30 minutes as the strikes got seemingly closer I decided to break down the camp and retreat back from where I came from (below treeline). I was pretty wet (wet out jacket) and cold by the time I met the other hikers. Luckily the combination of someone saying "hey you're shivering are you ok" and calming down after the Lightning scare led me to do the rational thing and set up camp and get warm. Live and learn! I've never repeated that experience since that experience.

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 21:08
Sorry- one more small point regarding a fire.
If injured... nothing says hey come here like a fire, small or otherwise.

Somewhere deep in our bones- fire is still an invitation.
Seeing a lone headlamp or light is something a passerby may ignore, especially on a trail like the AT where we assume that person may want privacy.
Seeing a small fire is almost like turning on the neon welcome sign. If you are hurt, your best odds of attracting a fellow hiker are a small blaze that piques their curiosity. So even if you are dozing, hurt, or otherwise unable to signal or call for help- the fire will do that job for you.

Course so will three blasts on a whistle or the strobe on that headlamp you brought :D

Just Bill
12-08-2015, 21:22
Some good comments Just Bill, thanks. I had made some poor decisions earlier that afternoon. I ascended above tree line toward a small pass as a storm blew in quickly and initially I decided to sit it out in a low spot that I perceived to be low risk from lightning. After putting up my shelter and sitting in my shelter praying for 30 minutes as the strikes got seemingly closer I decided to break down the camp and retreat back from where I came from (below treeline). I was pretty wet (wet out jacket) and cold by the time I met the other hikers. Luckily the combination of someone saying "hey you're shivering are you ok" and calming down after the Lightning scare led me to do the rational thing and set up camp and get warm. Live and learn! I've never repeated that experience since that experience.

Yar, and don't mean to pick on you at all. Of all the things that could happen, hypothermia is one of the few that actually does.
Even though some of it gets silly...
I wish we saw more threads about hypothermia and dealing with it, especially as it's one of the very few things we have control of.

Then we wouldn't have to see as many massive threads speculating on how, why, and what went wrong when a hiker does die.

999/1000 the cause of death is losing your mind.
Either you panic because something went wrong you can't handle, or you've been robbed of it.
The wandering off trail, running out of food, doing irrational stuff, falling from the ledge, or countless other things are just symptoms- never the cause of death.

It always strikes me the same as calling a gunshot the cause of death.
When it turns out it was a suicide. And the suicide was a result of PTSD, depression, or mental illness.
So we talk about the gun and pretend the other stuff never happened.

Casey & Gina
12-09-2015, 12:50
999/1000 the cause of death is losing your mind.
Either you panic because something went wrong you can't handle, or you've been robbed of it.
The wandering off trail, running out of food, doing irrational stuff, falling from the ledge, or countless other things are just symptoms- never the cause of death.


This!

http://www.glinz.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/don-t-panic.png

BirdBrain
12-09-2015, 12:56
42??????????

Traveler
12-09-2015, 15:15
Should clarify my position here.
I was taking the "fell into a river" scenario, in this case i would keep on hiking rather than borrow into my sleeping bag.

As i tend to wear synthetic clothing now days i wouldn't even change, i'd just pick up my pace for the first 40 mins to get generator going, cram some trail mix or nuts down my throat and keep on hiking.

If it was raining then i'd keep on hiking but reassess after 20 mins to make sure i was drier then when i got out the river.

If i was lost or injured only would i bed down for the night.


Problem with relying of fire in a emergency is the thing everyone avoids answering.

What do you do if you are injured?

There is absolutely no way you could round up enough wood to start and keep a large enough fire going to warm you through the night if you're seriously injured.

If people want camp fires that's their choice depending on local regulations and/or common sense.
But to rely on a fire as some sort of magical bail out in a emergency situation is a set up for failure IMO

Your solution of walking until dry makes sense, but may have limitations due to temperatures and presumes if you went into water your sleeping bag and gear stayed dry. If it did, it has a good chance of working, if not and you are without fire starting capabilities, you are now existing on luck alone. I wouldn't say carrying a small lighter for a fire if you needed one in an emergency is setting up for failure, the converse would seem more true.

Reflecting back to my early teens, I recall one of the fellows out with us in mid winter fell through the ice. Everything then moved very quickly to get a fire going and get the man out of his wet clothing in near zero weather. The mental images from that day stay with me, without fire, I am not sure what would've happened. Fire wasn't as magical as it was practical that day.

One of the first things my grandfather taught me about going into the woods of Maine was a saying, "First matches, then shoes". Could be I'm married to my own history and an old bromide, but it does seem fairly reasonable to carry the tools of fire in the unlikely event they would be handy.

Casey & Gina
12-09-2015, 17:06
Reflecting back to my early teens, I recall one of the fellows out with us in mid winter fell through the ice. Everything then moved very quickly to get a fire going and get the man out of his wet clothing in near zero weather. The mental images from that day stay with me, without fire, I am not sure what would've happened. Fire wasn't as magical as it was practical that day.

I don't think I'm adding anything new, nor do I wish to challenge the fact that fire was helpful in that case, but my perspective is this:

If you are out by yourself in the winter and fall through ice into water, good luck. If you manage to get yourself out I would have serious doubts in your ability to get a fire set up and going before hypothermia set in. Then there is the question of what happened to your gear - if you were wearing your pack when you went through the ice, and somehow managed to get yourself out of the water, I doubt your pack or anything in it survived as well. Unless, perhaps, it managed to float and not get pulled under the ice, getting stuck in the hole you made. In the unlikely event that you managed to retain ANY of your gear at all, I think the safest bet would be to get into your sleeping bag and curl up into a ball as quickly as possible. Take your wet clothes off first.

If you are with somebody else your odds of survival are clearly much higher. Even if your own gear is lost, others have theirs. The best thing for them to do, I think, would be to get you out of the wet clothes and into a warm sleeping bag, WITH another hiker packed in so that their warmer body could help get you and the inside of the bag warmed up faster. A fire would take far longer to get you back to a stable temperature.

I like to take a lot of options and conveniences hiking - a headlamp, a couple lighters, waterproof matches, and a fire steel; but I view all of those as being for convenience, comfort, and fun. I like to think of as few of things as possible as absolute dependencies.

My number one dependency is a warm sleeping bag. I would much rather have a bag that is "too warm" than one that leaves me feeling uncomfortable. What is just a mild discomfort for a normal hiker may be a lifesaving difference for one with hypothermia set in. My sleeping bag goes inside of a dry compression sack, which goes inside of a dry pack liner bag. The bag itself offers significant abrasion resistance preventing failure of the waterproof layers. I have put the gear to the test - putting the sleeping bag in the dry bag in the bathtub with me and sitting on it and moving it all around for a half hour, ensuring that at the end of it, my bag came out perfectly dry. Likewise some clothing is essential for keeping warm while moving, though much less of it than I once believed necessary as long as you have the energy to keep up a good pace. I like wool because it retains the most insulation when wet. A sleeping pad is also a part of this equation - failure scenarios for whatever type you choose should be considered.

My number two dependency is my tent, though a tarp over a hammock would suffice plenty well - the value is a means of keeping dry in wet weather conditions, both from falling precipitation and from wet ground underneath. I do not understand those who choose to travel with only a small tarp to go over them, with nothing to protect them from the ground underneath aside from a sleeping pad. To me, that is too much risk to accept.

Lastly, there is water - a lot of people claim to carry only a liter, or two at the most, because it is heavy. Yeah, it is heavy, but if I get down to a single liter I feel nervous and always try to fill up well before I am out. If I end up stuck somewhere I'd rather have some water. Yeah I'd be very conservative with it in such a case, but if my 1L bottle is down to 1/4 full when I get stranded, that's not going to keep me going for long. I use a hydration bladder but also have a bottle as backup in case it should rupture as well.

So there you go - the only thing I think of as dependencies are means to keep warm, dry, and hydrated. Fire can assist with two of those but is not adequate on it's own, and is not required for them to be covered. Light is not a dependency. But I carry all kinds of other stuff besides a sleeping bag, mat, and tent because I like to have fun and be happy out there. I don't want it to just be a survive-until-the-next-town scenario...I'd rather skip more towns and stay out for longer periods. To each their own of course, but I think it is valuable to seriously think about what you are actually dependent on and what you can live without even if you choose to take it along.

nsherry61
12-09-2015, 18:03
If you are out by yourself in the winter and fall through ice into water, good luck. If you manage to get yourself out I would have serious doubts in your ability to get a fire set up and going before hypothermia set in. Then there is the question of what happened to your gear - if you were wearing your pack when you went through the ice, and somehow managed to get yourself out of the water, I doubt your pack or anything in it survived as well. Unless, perhaps, it managed to float and not get pulled under the ice, getting stuck in the hole you made. In the unlikely event that you managed to retain ANY of your gear at all, I think the safest bet would be to get into your sleeping bag and curl up into a ball as quickly as possible. Take your wet clothes off first.
All a good standard view on falling through ice . . . until you watch this really excellent video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyBVWrqvkEg)on the subject by one of the world's leading hypothermia experts.

cbr6fs
12-09-2015, 18:52
Your solution of walking until dry makes sense, but may have limitations due to temperatures and presumes if you went into water your sleeping bag and gear stayed dry. If it did, it has a good chance of working, if not and you are without fire starting capabilities, you are now existing on luck alone. I wouldn't say carrying a small lighter for a fire if you needed one in an emergency is setting up for failure, the converse would seem more true.

If it's not raining and you're wearing synthetic clothing with synthetic insulation i think you'd be surprised just how quickly it dries.

I've not non synthetic clothing that's spent the night on a radiator and didn't dry yet was bone dry to the touch within 2 hours of walking.

If you're crossing rivers and you don't have your spare clothing and sleeping bag in a dry bag then i think you're being very very very silly, especially in cold weather.

Even then if i was hiking in wet areas or canoeing then i'd take a synthetic sleeping bag.

With synthetic insulation like Climashield Apex even if it's wet it still provides some insulation.
Wring it out, do some jumping jacks and crawl in and if your synthetic bag is rated to the conditions you travel in you'll be warm and dry within a couple of hours.

It's important to cram some calories down your throat to keep the furnace burning, doesn't really matter if it's hot or cold just as long as it's calories.
It's just as if not more important to keep hydrated as well, dehydration is shown to speed along hypothermia.
I can't find the link now, but i was reading earlier in the year that in the vast vast majority of cases of hypothermia the person was also dehydrated.
You can still be hypothermia and hydrated of course, but don't forget to get some calories and fluid in your body.


My problem with relying on fire is:

What if you can't light a fire?
It's a realistic real world possibility

What if there is no fuel or appropriate fuel to burn?
Again this is a very real possibility, you can be sat in the middle of a wood and not have wood that will burn on small fires

Even IF you get a fire going, can you be absolutely 100% certain you will be in a fit enough mental and physical state to gather fire wood ALL night?
That'll mean restocking the fire every 15 mins or so, nod off to sleep, let the fire go out and you're right back where you started but this time you're colder, tired and more demoralised.

Anyone that says they can get a fire going 100% of the time over varied conditions and terrain is a liar or a fool.
So although these scripted "survival" shows make it seem like a good idea, why waste energy on uncertainties when you could use that same energy to get your body heat to dry out your clothing or hike out.


If you have a sleeping bag, insulated clothing and a tent with you then if it was good enough to keep you alive the night before it'll be good enough again.
BUT you need to put effort into choosing the equipment that's right for the terrain/weather and make absolutely sure it's in a good quality dry bag.

shelb
12-10-2015, 00:18
I have only section hiked for up to 10 days at a time (120 mile stretches).

I HIGHLY recommend a head lamp, even though I always plan to finish the trail by 5pm each day. Reasons? Sometimes I have been held up in town... a light is helpful to get to the privy at night... I like to read at night... I have sometimes wanted to look at the map at night... RECOMMENDATION: Get a head lamp with a red light option! The red light will not glare in the eyes of other people around you (and you can get these at Dicks for about $20. ). While a cell phone might work for each of these, it is not the most desirable because of the loss of charge, the glare, the lack of hands-free option, and the possibility of it falling in the privy!!!!!!

Regarding the fire option, I only hike in the summer, and I have been stoveless at times. I do not currently carry a flame ignitor of any sort.

Traveler
12-10-2015, 07:28
If it's not raining and you're wearing synthetic clothing with synthetic insulation i think you'd be surprised just how quickly it dries.



I think you'd be surprised others wear that too and understand its properties.....

My point about a headlamp and fire tools was their weight is very small in comparison to what they can provide IF you need need them. In my view not having those materials, especially in winter is foolish, but thats just my opinion. If you feel its not necessary to have these things then you save 4 ounces.

Coffee
12-10-2015, 07:54
How many of us are so efficient planning water stops so that we reach the next source with less than four ounces in our bottles? Or reach the next resupply location with zero food in our packs? Point being: There are probably better places to optimize pack weight than omitting a means of starting a fire. The weight is like insurance. I have homeowners insurance and have never used it so far but I'll continue to pay the premium each year.

cbr6fs
12-10-2015, 08:06
I think you'd be surprised others wear that too and understand its properties.....

My point about a headlamp and fire tools was their weight is very small in comparison to what they can provide IF you need need them. In my view not having those materials, especially in winter is foolish, but thats just my opinion. If you feel its not necessary to have these things then you save 4 ounces.

It's just as foolish to carry something you have absolutely no way to use, it really depends on where, when and how you hike.

As an example, good luck trying to find something to burn on this hike earlier this year

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbr6fs/Hiking/Lakes%202015/20150601_152137_zpsbvhm73lh.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbr6fs/Hiking/Lakes%202015/20150601_144134_zpsgwaqbzab.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbr6fs/Hiking/Lakes%202015/20150602_070905_zpsg65t6ecy.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/cbr6fs/Hiking/Lakes%202015/20150601_102637_zpsnuwolw12.jpg


Even IF we found some dead wood, with 90mph winds there was absolutely no way you would be able to use a lighter never mind keep a fire going.
We couldn't find enough shelter from the wind and rain to light a jetboil, so a fire would have been absolutely impossible.

In my experience relying on having a fire to bail you out of a bad situation is pretty poor planning, as you're relying on something that isn't a reliable possibility in real world scenarios.



I do carry a decent torch though and have found it extremely useful to have a decent torch over the years.

Traveler
12-10-2015, 10:33
In my experience relying on having a fire to bail you out of a bad situation is pretty poor planning, as you're relying on something that isn't a reliable possibility in real world scenarios.


Well, had I suggested that, you'd have a point. I didn't. My point was, and remains, having a fire tool (small lighter at .4 ounces) can be handy if you find it necessary. I made no statements regarding it being the only tool one can use in an emergency, nor that it can be used everywhere. If you don't want to carry one, I'm sure the weight savings is a benefit.

Just Bill
12-10-2015, 10:51
42??????????
32930

yar.........

Just Bill
12-10-2015, 11:17
It's just as foolish to carry something you have absolutely no way to use, it really depends on where, when and how you hike.
I do carry a decent torch though and have found it extremely useful to have a decent torch over the years.

The original post was talking scenarios specific to the AT. Which doesn't invalidate your point by any means generally speaking, but it's been made...

Here in the states, for example; if carrying a torch you don't need another firestarter
32931
However since you're from Europe I can understand that you probably mean this
32932

So in a very specific instance based upon limited geography... As some might say "It's all greek to me" :D

A good rain coat makes little sense in the desert, but an umbrella might be critical gear there, though in dense woods an umbrella makes horrible rain gear and a good rain coat tends to be too hot in warmer rain so a wind shell is superior then I suppose. So I happen to own all three. Selecting the appropriate piece fer my destination and leaving the others at home. Just because I may select one more often than another doesn't invalidate the other choices.

When you finally hit the trail the only way to look at is that you carry only two pieces of gear. 3lbs of grey mess between yer ears and your pack.
So long as they do the job, you've arrived at your correct answer- though as that's all you have it makes sense to use everything you brought.

QiWiz
03-12-2016, 12:11
I have needed a backup light to change batteries in my headlamp (iPhone now takes care of this).
I have had matches get wet and lighters run out of fuel, etc., and needed a second way to light a stove or fire.

So it's easy to have a backup for these functions and I do. Live and learn. YMMV

Han Sobo
03-14-2016, 14:12
No real need for fire or light. No need for cellphones, ipods, digital cameras, toilet paper, sleeping bags, tents, bug spray, extra socks (or any at all). Really you can get by with a blanket rolled up satchel style draped around your neck with a loaf of bread, and a water gourd. Piece of cord optional.

It will not be very comfortable. I did it once just to give it a try and was very thankful a week later getting 'home'. Not exactly with the above set up. I learned some very interesting things some of which I still remember clearly, things like: 'Pine cones are not very edible'.

I have fallen in rivers, and even fallen through ice crossing a snow field studded with trees, that turned out coincidentally to be a beaver pond.

At a hunt cabin with no electricity I woke up one night with a strong need to pee and when I could not locate my flashlight which I always placed by my side.. I was very confident after doing this same thing hundreds of times before (I lived there for about a three year stretch) that I would just go by ambient star light. I missed the loft edge by about 1/2 an inch. Which is the last thing I remembered before waking up to a broken scapula (shoulder blade) - useless left arm. Looking at my fingers bent back to where my fingernails were touching the back of my wrist. Split scalp from hitting the cast iron stove.. and a useless left leg from torn ligaments and muscles.

I made the voyage to my vehicle and to the local hospital after a close to 1 mile hike through thigh high snow. Very slow going even with my leg taped up and a impromptu crutch.

The point being I had a flash light, but decided from familiarity to just wing it, and poop still can happen.

Fire may not be a much needed necessity. It may not save you from hypothermia, but it has on some few occasions been the saving factor, not from the warmth it provided but the beacon it creates from smoke or light. Helping searchers locate lost hikers or stranded travelers.

I prefer to cook my rice, rather then soak it all day.

I also understand and honor those few adventurous souls that need to get away from the current mind set of what we believe to be necessity. I just hope someone will not decide to jettison these two very simple and light weight survival tools just to save an ounce or two of added weight.

Han Sobo
03-14-2016, 14:40
Really nice pictures there cbr6fs.. Not totally to be a smarmy guy because you make a damn good point but I see a stick in the bottom most picture. Look right hand bottom corner.


Sorry you challenged me to find something to burn! Unless its a sickly snake.

orthofingers
03-14-2016, 20:47
Hypothermia is hard, and the most legitimate thing to fear. While you can medically define it, that part of things isn't that important.
It's like the Dark Side of the Force and really comes down to knowing yourself. When you're solo you have to "trust your feeling's Luke" more than anything.
The best weapon is experience having encountered it, which is dangerous to learn on your own.



You were hiking hard- burning lots of energy, and depleting your reserves.
You were sweaty and damp from hiking hard and exposing yourself to varied climate in an alpine setting. (changing temps, winds, ridgeline exposures, etc.)
You were in ideal hypothermia conditions- not so cold you took it seriously but cold enough to be serious.

Likely you got hypothermia on a ridge (why wind shirts have gotten so popular) and like many you went up hot and sweaty- then hit the double whammy of flatter terrain, easier hiking, and greater exposure. You probably got a chill, kicked it into gear and picked up the pace. You may have even felt that first hard shiver and slipped on a layer. We all expect to get chilled on a ridge- no biggie- we just hike through it. So you did.

But somewhere in there- your body just got a bit tired. Nothing major. You were trying to burn calories to hike, trying to burn them to dry damp clothes, trying to burn them to stay warm and you ran a bit short. Probably got a hair dehydrated too, or maybe you did the right thing and chugged a liter of water- which was from a cold mountain stream... so add a liter of water to heat up to the calorie count. No hard breathing Lord Vader waving an angry red warning at you... just some normal behaviour creeping up. That's hypothermia.

Maybe as simple as you needed 300 calories that hour and you only had 290 to burn, maybe you shoveled in some food, but your body was too busy to divert blood and calories to digesting it as your muscles were still calling for those resources.

So to your point- no you can't always hike your way out, but it can work to break the slide. In your case slipping from mild to medium a brief jog to ramp up the heat would have helped. It's just as likely that you had mild hypothermia and literally that brief stop to speak to the hikers kicked you into medium symptoms.

If you recognize that you are sliding, it works well to pick up the pace for a brief bit just prior to stopping. Sometimes a hard stop in the right conditions can be just as bad. You should also make an attempt to rehearse what you plan to do and where you will do it prior to stopping. Keep moving while you scan for the spot to pull over and know what you are going to do when you stop.

People with medium to severe symptoms have pulled over and literally lost their train of thought when stopping to pull on an extra layer. It is not uncommon to find people with full packs, a tent set up but unoccupied, or simply sitting with a jacket in their hand "resting". Hypothermia at it's worst is just plain weird and generally inexplicable.

Know yourself... what you can tolerate, recover from, and what that means to you and your body.
Until you know the answers- do not let mild symptoms slide beyond your control.
Common Hypothermia is ridiculously easy to treat if not ignored, unfortunately it is ridiculously easy to ignore.


I read a terrific book a few years back called Wolfman of Alaska or Alaska's Wolfman (I can't remember which). It's about the life and exploits of Frank Glasser, who, in the first half of the 20th century was a trapper, guide, meat hunter for remote road crews, wolf assassin etc. in Alaska. His adventures are too numerous to recall here but he does talk of one time when he went through the ice (I believe he was on a dog sled at the time), got soaked through, it was 20 below, etc. He managed to strike a match within a short time of climbing up the riverbank, because at that temperature, he only had a short time, got a fire going, got out of his wet woolies as fast as possible too because they were turning stiff, and dried his clothes over the fire as he turned round and round to keep his flesh facing the fire from burning and his flesh away from the fire from freezing. The book is taken mostly from his journals. He writes of these situations so matter-of-factly and each one could have easily ended up fatally.
Highly recommended book.

Smoky Spoon
03-18-2016, 21:04
I carry two types of light, a small minimag flashlight and headlamp. I also carry back up batteries for both. I carry esbit fuel tabs for my esbit stove but it also works as a good firestarter. I do not carry a lighter because as a diabetic I have trouble feeling my fingers warm or cold. So I carry matches, one in my kitchen kit and one in my survival bag.
As for when I have ever used them, a few times. More than once I have run into a creepy guy or some guys partying near Lake Katherine who when I was coming upon their campsite I overheard them say, "Hey let's go walk a ways down he road and look for some pu--y. "
Now that did not mean they would want me or meant me any harm but trust me when I say after seeing one guy take a swig of whiskey and blow fire out of his mouth, another pull his manhood out and say, "yeah, been a long time since the old lady gave me a good bj" and then shake it...and a third smash a beer can on his forehead and scream "pu--y....hell yeah" I had no intention of dialoguing with them to find out what their real intentions were.
Was I wanting to hike now that the sun has begun setting? Nope, already hiked farther than I intended that time, was exhausted, knew my sugar was super low, felt light headed and so freaking exhausted I would of sworn moments earlier no way my legs could not have hiked another foot, but fear of those frat boys partying and knowing how far back I was away from anyone else near by and from civilization gave me the biggest burst of energy I had not felt since my military days. And that headlamp meant more to me than anything else, so did that fire I lit up later to help me stop shaking.
Did I get hurt? No...could I have? I have no idea but I know I did not want to find out anymore than I wanted to run away from those guys without a good light helping me see the path better.

But I had a flashlight I bet you might be thinking...turns out I did not, i unknowingly broke the lightbulb...did not know it until later when I flipped off my headlamp to save it and tried the flashlight....a backup might have been what saved me, that and my legs running faster than ever before.

For women being alone in the woods 99.9 % of the time is perfectly safe....but the one time it is not....a warm fire and good source of light can make all the difference. Ironically, before that I myself was questioning why am I packing this extra weight too? Now, i never give it a second date thought....

MtDoraDave
04-02-2016, 09:21
So far, I've done 4 1/2 week-long section hikes on the AT. Section hikers often do carry more equipment than thru-hikers. I will eventually reduce what I carry so that I am closer to 30lbs than 40lbs. However, to stay on topic...
I carry one decent headlight as a primary, and one cheaper one as a backup. They use the same batteries, so I don't carry any "spare" batteries.

A seasoned veteran can mostly plan (successfully) not to night hike, however it tends to happen from time to time.

Got a late start entering the Smokies last year, and can't stop until Mollies Ridge Shelter. Had to hike 2 hrs at night. I had a cheap, dim headlight which was fine for seeing where to put my feet, but was about worthless when trying to determine what kind of large animal it was about 40' away that didn't run when I yelled at it... scary. So now my primary headlight has a 200 lumen option (only 6 hrs in that mode), a 100 lumen option (16 hrs), and a lower power setting (26 hrs). The backup is a $20 Energizer that is 100 lumens on high.

Mini-bics don't weigh much, so I bring 3 - and have twice given one away to a through hiker who needed one.

Someone once told me that hiking is a place where you have to weigh (figuratively and literally) the options of what you need to be "comfortable" and what you are willing to sacrifice or go without. After being very cold all night a year and a half ago on Thanksgiving night near the NC/GA border, I will choose to carry the heavier, bulkier 0 degree bag when hiking in times/places where the temps may drop into the teens. It's worth carrying the extra 2 lbs to me to KNOW that I will be warm at night. I carry the Prolight Plus because I simply cannot get comfortable on the Ridgerest.

rafe
04-02-2016, 10:42
Deep in the woods on a cloudy or rainy night, after dark, no moon, stars or city lights -- it can be seriously dark. Headlamps and keychain lights weigh next to nothing. So why not? Once it gets dark, it might be tricky to fish inside your pack for a headlamp. A tiny keychain light hanging off the outside of the pack addresses that worry. Ditto for lighters. Two is enough, just keep them in separate places and try to remember where they are.