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K-Man
12-08-2005, 22:34
So I graduated college last May and have been working in the corporate world since last August. (Aug 9 2004) I already see the pointlessness of climbing this ladder which just leads to more stress. I already have permission to take a Leave Without Pay (LWOP) in 2007 to do my thru hike. When I get to Katahdin in September 2007 I am sure the last thing I am going to want to do is go back to sitting behind a cubicle. The question is...What should I do with my life to be able to keep hiking and not be a slave to a middle manager? I have thought about working at ski lodge in VT during the off season and hiking the rest of the time. The only catch is that it's very hard to leave my cushy government job behind that guarantees me a steady paycheck, a well paid retirement, and health benefits. Should I just tough it out here and take LWOP's every five years to hike various long trails or should I just say F it and be trail trash? Can the all knowing WhiteBlaze shed some light on my philosophical dilema? :confused:

the1stranger
12-08-2005, 22:38
Want fries with that?

Spiritual Pillgrim
12-08-2005, 22:48
:bse this year i said screw my job too. sold my house and bought a travel trailer. made a 3,500 mile loop from north carolina as far north as eustis maine. it was great and virtually stress free (except gas prices sky rocketed).
i'm still not working and hope to thru hike next year. i'm trying to down shift in life and accept that material possesions are really just that, material possessions. when i get off the trail, i just want to get a job that meets basic living expenses, nothing extravagant.

i once heard about a guy who waited tables during the colder winter months and spent all his warmer summer months hiking.

bottom line is, what are you willing to give up for happiness?:)

Skidsteer
12-08-2005, 23:04
Maybe try some middle ground? By all means hike the trail if you like, but as to making a living... nobody, not even our government, mandates that you must toil at a job you hate. Are you young? Take the time now to find out what you are gifted at, are content with, will provide a service for folks, and then charge all the market will bear. Life's too short to spend it at a job you loathe.

DeBare
12-08-2005, 23:21
I don't understand what you mean "Corporate World". If you have a government job then you are not in the Corporate World. You could try your own business.

Tin Man
12-08-2005, 23:22
There are many paths in life and only you can determine which is right for you. Each path has its pluses and minuses. All involve some level of stress. Even being a part-time worker and part-time hiker is going to have some level of stress. Whatever path you choose, do not look back, always look forward and make adjustments as you go. ~Gosh, this is getting a little deep.~

I don't really care for the corporate world myself, but it gives me a comfortable lifestyle and helps me raise a family. Dilbert helps me maintain a good perspective on things and I can say f*** the corporate world while working the system to my advantage. I imagine other occupations can be just as frustrating because when you interact with people, strange things happen that are out of your control. While some may argue the corporate world tends to be stranger than other worlds, I approach it somewhat detached and appreciate the humor of it all. ~Dang, this is deep. Later.~

Shutterbug
12-08-2005, 23:31
Looking for advice? You will enjoy your retirement years more if you work while you are young.

I am 62 years old and retired for the third time. Most of my friends in their 60's are worried about how they are going to survive. Social Security isn't enough to live on. Those who didn't work hard and put up some resources while they were young find themselves in a tough situation when they get older.

My advice -- work hard and play hard, but always spend a little less than you make.

bulldog49
12-08-2005, 23:49
Life is about making choices. And all choices have consequences. By now, you should be mature enough to make those choices and evaluate teh consequences for yourself and should not be asking for advice from total strangers.

And as someone else pointed out, govt work is not the corporate world. In fact the term "govt work" is itself an oxymoron.

My best advise is to grow up and think for yourself.

bulldog49
12-08-2005, 23:51
Life is about making choices. And all choices have consequences. By now, you should be mature enough to make those choices and evaluate the consequences for yourself and should not be asking for advice from total strangers.

And as someone else pointed out, govt work is not the corporate world. In fact the term "govt work" is itself an oxymoron.

My best advice is to grow up and think for yourself.

Ravendog
12-08-2005, 23:54
there are many dirfferent paths (deep, huh?). Seriously, I still regret taking several years off before, during or after college to go chase my pashion - surfing! I was always po'd because my friends would go spend 3-4 months in Mexico living on a couple hundred bucks per month. Of the guys that chose to spend their early 20's doing this, one is in jail, and one is a multi-millionaire. The guy that is now rich was the one who spent the most time not working, but he was always working it, so to speak (he could BS anyone in english or spanish). The others are doing just fine. I now go surfing in Costa Rica for a couple of weeks every year, and hope to spend more time backpacking. It's nice to know that my 401K will keep me in quality gear and beans and rice served in tropical style for my later years.

IMO, if you have to ask, then you are probably doubting that living "the trail life" would be for you.

Tin Man
12-08-2005, 23:59
My advice -- work hard and play hard, but always spend a little less than you make.

Great advice and this is how I live. I think an alternative lifestyle could emphasize more play and less work. There is no magic formula for work/life balance except as you say, "always spend a little less than you make". Some may prefer to live a moderate or even spartan lifestyle in order to play more while still saving for the future. Playing hard can be done very cheaply depending on your game.

Tin Man
12-09-2005, 00:06
IMO, if you have to ask, then you are probably doubting that living "the trail life" would be for you.

I imagine that rings true here as with many young people just starting out. We all have something that seems important to us now and later we find it was not so important to us at all. Sometimes it is best to just get things out of our system, like your friends when they were young, and move on.

Just Jeff
12-09-2005, 00:08
In fact the term "govt work" is itself an oxymoron.

You saying the military, firemen, policemen, teachers, etc don't work?

I disagree.

Anyway, K-Man, as long as you're pulling your own weight then do whatever you're comfortable with, IMO...without regard to what others think is right. Just keep in mind - the harder you work (and save) now the easier you'll live in the future. Find your own balance there.

TooTall
12-09-2005, 00:10
Just go do your hike in 2007. You'll have all that time away from work to ponder what you'll be doing when you finish the hike. Maybe you'll return and maybe you won't. Stay flexible and see what happens. Let the trail shine on your conundrum. It's all good.

Too Tall Paul

K-Man
12-09-2005, 00:17
My best advice is to grow up and think for yourself.

Damn dude...I assume everyone here has gone through a similar questioning of what they want out of life. I also assumed everyone here has a similar interest, (the AT) so I just wanted to know how ya'll worked through it.

K-Man
12-09-2005, 00:20
Just go do your hike in 2007. You'll have all that time away from work to ponder what you'll be doing when you finish the hike. Maybe you'll return and maybe you won't. Stay flexible and see what happens. Let the trail shine on your conundrum. It's all good.

Too Tall Paul
This is the path I have chosen as of now...Thanks everyone for your responses. I hope I didn't piss anyone off with my youthful dreaming.

Ravendog
12-09-2005, 00:24
dream. Just don't waste your talents.

hungryhowie
12-09-2005, 02:45
When I was 16 I decided that I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life. So, to figure that out, I set off to hike the Appalachian Trail. Along the way I figured out a lot of things, and came to the realization that deciding what I wanted to do with my life was a bit of a limiting proposition. A job is a job. A career choice is just that. That's not life. That's not what matters to me. When I die I'm not going to care about how far up the coporate ladder I climbed. I figured out that I wanted to experience the world...and I didn't want to do it alone. I decided that I don't want many material posessions, but the ones I wanted, I wanted to be nice. So I live simply, enjoying the company of my fiancee, getting out whenever I can, and doing things that make me happy.

Whatever is best for you, take some time and figure it out. You don't have to hike the trail to do that, but time alone...without interuptions from the world...is important to really getting into your greymatter.

Good luck,

-Howie

stag3
12-09-2005, 06:28
Lets get realistic...K-man is 23.. this good adise needs to reflect where he is now. I don't know a single 23 year old who is planning retirement. K-man will look back in 10 years and be shocked how much he has changed.Corporate life is not that bad once you learn the system and accept it. The other choice is be your own boss--another set of problems come with that. Vacations can be scarce.The best advise I could give is not make any big mistakes--like babies before you can afford them, wasting away on drugs ...... Enjoy the freedom that you have now, there will be ample time for house payments, car payments, and the other famiy type stuff.Stag

MOWGLI
12-09-2005, 07:12
Damn dude...I assume everyone here has gone through a similar questioning of what they want out of life. I also assumed everyone here has a similar interest, (the AT) so I just wanted to know how ya'll worked through it.

K-Man, it's not personal He does that to everyone. And BTW, some of the hardest working people I know work for the government.

I'm in a pretty good position to address your concerns. I worked 19 years in the Corporate world, and left almost 3 years ago to move 800 miles and take a job with a non-profit organization.

Here's the thing. The longer you stay in the corporate world, the harder it is to extract yourself. The whole deal is setup to get its hooks into you. The longer you're there, the more you make, the better the benefits (vacatime time), etc. It was really tough to leave a job, halve my salary and relocate from what had been home for many years.

But you know what? There is life after the corporate world, and its pretty darn good. Yeah, I can't afford to buy as many things as I used to, but you know what? I've got everything I need. Yeah, I can't afford to eat out as much, but you know what? The food in Chattanooga isn't as good as it was in New York. So its OK.

The trick is to find what you love to do, and do it. And even then, you'll get frustrated with your job from time to time. I have what many would call a dream job, yet I rarely have time to hike. I still have to make time to hike. It doesn't fall in your lap.

But then there's the good times - like this weekend. Today I leave to spend the entire weekend at a lodge in NW Georgia with representatives from more than 25 hiking organizations. These are amazing folks. In fact, I'll take a 2-hour hike today with some of the, and get paid for it.

So... find what you love, and go for it. Life is too short.

Oh yeah. Have a great hike. It may just be the best thing you ever do.

icemanat95
12-09-2005, 09:55
Lots of good advice above...

Only you can determine for you what is truly important to you. Every choice you make however, both opens up new choices ahead and closes off the possibility for others. The more choices you make based on personal gratification, the fewer career choices remain to you. One thru-hike on a resume looks good to many employers...a pattern of leaving your job to go bumming around looks like unreliability.

What I'm saying here is that at some point you are going to have to buckle down and take care of your future, which means putting money away for retirement and old age expenses, setting up college funds for kids and otherwise providing a secure life for your loved ones. ...OK there is an off chance that you won't ever take on those familial responsibilities, but most of us do eventually. If you don't build a track record of job-related reliability now, you severely limit the options that will be available to you when it counts the most...it's real difficult to raise a family on a ski-patrol salary.

My advice is to work HARD until your thru-hike. Try to find something joyful in your job and focus on that rather than the pointless crap around you. Make yourself indespensable so that when you take your leave of absence, they throw you a party and demand that you write and send pictures frequently, then when you get back, they throw you an even bigger party. Work some more while looking for a job that you can stand.

As far as the pointlessness of climbing the corporate ladder...climbing the ladder is pointless, but being rewarded for doing your job as well as it can be done by being promoted is not. Doing a job well so that it benefits your co-workers, and clients alike is rewarding The big trick is not to focus on the space inside your own heat aura, but rather to expand your focus onto all of the people your work could help or benefit.

I'm not saying you should be miserable for your company or agency, but your state of mind is largely determined by you and your focus. You can choose to be miserable or not. You can choose to feel rewarded and committed or disconnected and unfulfilled. May I ask what agency you work for and in what general capacity? Why did you seek and take the job? What attracted you to the job and what were you looking for when you took it? What is dissappointing you in it? Is it the JOB that is dissappointing you, your co-workers, the way things are done or not done? Or is it something else, something in you? Is it just that you would rather be somewhere else? Why? Are your reasons for wanting to be somewhere else substantive or are they selfish and self-gratifying? You don't need to answer any of those to us, but you should try to answer them honestly for yourself.

I won't say that I'm not telling you how to live your life, because, in very general terms, I am. But the years tumble by a lot faster than you would ever expect, and before you know it you'll be thinking about the state of your retirement or kids college tuition. So be careful that the choices you make now don't handicap you for the future. And be honest with yourself about that and about whether you are willing to accept the consequences of some of your choices...human beings are masters of self-deception.

Just some things to think about.

Tin Man
12-09-2005, 10:12
...the years tumble by a lot faster than you would ever expect, and before you know it you'll be thinking about the state of your retirement or kids college tuition. So be careful that the choices you make now don't handicap you for the future. And be honest with yourself about that and about whether you are willing to accept the consequences of some of your choices...human beings are masters of self-deception.

Good advice. Another way of looking at things...

"Remember, you don't live to work, you work to live."

gsingjane
12-09-2005, 11:21
There is so much wonderful advice here, I hardly feel like this will add much, but here goes anyway:

When I was starting out in law practice in the mid-1980's, one of the most common mistakes I saw people make was to take on long-term responsibilities (i.e. debts) due to social pressures, and then find themselves hamstrung to ever downscale their lives. A lot of folks started out in corporate law firms and later decided they might prefer government or non-profit law, but by then the commitments of apartment/house, car, second house, etc. had grown so substantial that they had no freedom of movement and had to stick with jobs they had come to loathe... or jobs they had never intended to stay with more than a few years.

There is so much pressure out there to buy as much house, as much car, as much lifestyle as you can possibly afford. And, there is the "e-z credit" available to do it, too! Try to resist becoming ensnared in certain lifestyle choices just because everyone else is doing it. There is no sin or shame in not keeping up with whatever everyone around you is doing, whether that is buying a new car every 2 years, going on vacation for exotic places, living in a gorgeous condo, or whatever.

Just my .02,

Jane in CT

Footslogger
12-09-2005, 11:43
I can echo what has been said, many times over.

By "blue collar" roots were soonly swept under the carpet when I found myself earning good money in the 70's (good money being a relative term). Before I realized it my outward life had become the exact opposite of who I was ...but the choices at the time were to take a nose dive or stay on the roller coaster. I chose wrong back then and found my career being driven more by my debt and responsibilites than by my interests.

Long story short ...I eventually bottomed out, but before I had lost everything. I managed to hold onto what was precious to me - my reputation, self respect and the love of my kids. I was also able to put a decent living back together, but this time with a more clear set of priorities.

These days I'm not much one for advice. As the saying goes "...wise men don't need it and fools don't heed it". I think everyone has to go at life their own way and learn their own lessons. But I know that if I had it to do all over again I would have been more true to my myself and my value system.

Nothing wrong with chasing a dream, big career, big bucks etc. Just make sure before you dive in that this is the life you want and are willing to sacrifice for.

'Slogger

lobster
12-09-2005, 13:22
Good advice. Another way of looking at things...

"Remember, you don't live to work, you work to live."



A German told me once that "Germans live to work and French work to live!"

Footslogger
12-09-2005, 13:24
A German told me once that "Germans live to work and French work to live!"
======================================
...and German once told me that to an American, "culture" is BUSINESS but to a German, "culture" is just that ...CULTURE.

'Slogger

Shutterbug
12-09-2005, 14:55
May I have a second turn at giving advice?

Be thankful that you have choices. When I was your age, I didn't have the option of deciding to work or not. It was off to Vietnam.

I suspect that flying 250 helicopter combat missions in Vietnam made me appreciate the "corporate world" a bit more. The "stress" that you mentioned really hasn't seemed so great. Each day when I have reflected I could say, "Well, no one shot at me today."

Taking the time and making the effort to hike tha Appalachian Trial may do for you what Vietnam did for me -- give you the confidence that you can complete a tough job. Go for it and be thankful that you have the choices that you do.

PS: Don't overlook the other possibility -- graduate school. After Vietnam, I went back to law school -- it opened doors that otherwise would not have been open.

Shutterbug
12-09-2005, 15:02
There is so much pressure out there to buy as much house, as much car, as much lifestyle as you can possibly afford.

Jane in CT

Your observation is the same as mine. Will you talk to my kids?

I will add a bit to the advice I have previously given: "Always spend a little less than you make and the miracle of compound interest will make you a wealthy person."

Seeker
12-09-2005, 15:23
keep the government job. there are few left today that offer the pay, benefits, insurance, and retirement you could have.you will earn more money and vacation as you progress. if you can't progress in your field, move sideways to another field, or get more education. there's gov't help available there as well.if you open your own business, be THE worker... employees only bring headaches. you can no longer guarantee what they will do... none of them, even the most dedicated, will have your interests truly to heart... so, unless you can do it all yourself, don't do it. the free time is nice. the penalty for failure is catastrophic.buy no more than you can afford. pay cash for small stuff, like cars. if you must buy a house, save up for it, and buy a small one... don't put anything on credit. if you can't afford it now, you can't afford it... don't have kids until you have a house to put them in, a job that will get them through school, and where a 6 month or longer stretch of unemployment can't hurt you.marry someone who will work, literally and figuratively, and is willing to change if times get hard. you can do it alone, but it's lonely when you wake up and realize you married the wrong partner.god, however you define him, will not help you. he will watch you, and you will understand him better afterwards, but if he steps in directly, it violates someone else's 'freed choice'... he can, and often does, act through others.don't fight 'the system' (define it as you will... IRS, city hall, or corporate structure)... you can't win. it's not fair. but in the end, you'll be less frustrated.(former army officer, business owner, and current father, husband, and defense contractor looking to move over to a gov't job again.)

RWBlue
12-09-2005, 17:39
K-Man I think you need to see a career counselor. They have test to show you what you are good at. They will also talk to you about what you like to do. They will help you understand how important money or power or being outdoors is to you.
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I feel sorry for you if you made it though college and don’t do something you love to do.
I have only really worked a couple years in my life, the rest of the time I have enjoyed what I do.
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BTW, I love what I do. I don’t. It isn’t the same thing as I did when I graduated high school, or college or … I evolved into what I am today. You will evolve also (hopefully). I will also say you are what you do before 30. After 30 it is hard to change direction.

RockyTrail
12-09-2005, 18:09
K-man, I hate to burst a bubble, but the government jobs will give you the most benefits, most vacation, most retirement, and generally the most job security of any job out there. Not only that, but I think they're far more likely to excuse a 6-month hike than any corporate job.
The non-gov jobs are far more volatile/shaky in my opinion. (But there are hard workers in both camps).

I've been thirty years working in the non-government world and I say if you've got a latch on a govt job think twice before ditching it, you can't beat the benefits, but then you gotta be happy in what you do, so maybe it's not for you...it's your call.

Ender
12-09-2005, 18:13
A German told me once that "Germans live to work and French work to live!"

And the German minimum 4 weeks vacation....

I live with two Germans... they are amazed how hard Americans work for so little rest and payoff.

My advice, do the hike, but don't compramise (sp?) your future, whatever you want that to be. If it's living in the woods and working odd jobs, not too much to worry about. If it's making money and having a comfortable retirement, then more will have to be considered. If you're not sure, plan for all options and choose when the time comes.

Anumber1
12-09-2005, 19:09
Check out the book, Rich Dad Poor Dad

Sirrahd
12-12-2005, 15:35
Find a rich woman or one that would rather have a career than to stay home with kids. I just said goodbye to 12+ years in the corporate world and am now going back to school to pursue an educational degree. Plus I get to stay home and watch my kids grow up. Man (Woman) I love feminism.

A-Train
12-12-2005, 16:31
This is a great thread with some good ideas going on. Kudos to K man for posting his thoughts. I´m sort of in a similar boat, thought I´ve already hiked the AT (took off a college semester). I´m graduating in a week and have no idea what I´m going to do. All I know is at 22 I´m not ready to jump into a career, so I plan to work at an outfitter, wait tables and piece together money for upcoming hikes, living at home for a yr or two. Sure its not what everone would like to see me doing with a college degree (parents, others) but when it comes down to it, its my life, not theirs. You´ve got to decide whats best for you. Would you rather have stability and assurance, and have no fun, working all the time just to recieve your couple weeks vacation? My brother works a corporate job, makes really good money and loves it. But its not for everyone. I need a differently structured life.

Those that are telling you that retirement will be more enjoyable if you work for the next 30 years, are coming from a very different perspective than you. Is it worth it to spend the next 3 decades earning enough money, so that you can FINALLY start living at 55 or 60? Seems kinda backwards to me. Wouldn´t you rather hike trails and travel while your young and have good health?

Lastly I´ll say that if I had a dime for every older person on the AT who told me they wished they had hiked the trail when they were my age, well..I´d have a lot of snickers. Good luck in your decision

Tim Rich
12-12-2005, 16:46
Lets get realistic...K-man is 23.. this good adise needs to reflect where he is now. I don't know a single 23 year old who is planning retirement. K-man will look back in 10 years and be shocked how much he has changed.Corporate life is not that bad once you learn the system and accept it. The other choice is be your own boss--another set of problems come with that. Vacations can be scarce.The best advise I could give is not make any big mistakes--like babies before you can afford them, wasting away on drugs ...... Enjoy the freedom that you have now, there will be ample time for house payments, car payments, and the other famiy type stuff.Stag

Some very good advice in this thread. I will add, though, that 23 year olds should be planning for retirement. You should start socking money into the TSP and any supplemental 401K matching program your agency offers as soon as the first open season arrives. 100% matching is too good to pass up. Sock it away, allocate it for long term aggressive growth and forget about it. The magic of time and stock returns will allow you a comfortable retirement.

If it's something you can stomach, consider keeping the government job. After just three years, you get four weeks vacation a year, along with another two weeks worth of holidays. If your agency allows a compressed work schedule, you get an additional 26 long weekends if you work 9 hour days, or a long weekend every weekend if your agency allows 4 tens.

If you can't stand the job, consider a transfer to another agency, another division within your agency, or stick with your current job until you attain a journeyman's level of experience that may make you marketable in the private sector.

As has been said, the key is to not let your job, or any other overriding thing, define you. Someone can be consumed with work and let the important things suffer. Someone can be consumed with hiking and let important things suffer. If any pursuit jeopardizes the things you truly hold dear, it's time to take stock and make choices.

I wish you well in your choices. Choose wisely.

Take Care,

Tim

smokymtnsteve
12-12-2005, 17:15
"How to Overthrow the System: brew your own beer; kick in your Tee Vee; kill your own beef; build your own cabin and piss off the front porch whenever you bloody well feel like it."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

smokymtnsteve
12-12-2005, 17:17
"They cannot see that growth for the sake of growth is a cancerous madness, that Phoenix and Albuquerque will not be better cities to live in when their populations are doubled again and again. They would never understand that an economic system which can only expand or expire must be false to all that is human. "

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Just Jeff
12-12-2005, 19:32
So what does Abbey propose to do with all those dern people who keep multiplying? Gotta put 'em somewhere...maybe they should just expire and save us the troublesome expansion issues.

stag3
12-12-2005, 20:04
Thank you for your service.:clap This country owes a debt to everyone who served in the Armed Forces that can never be repaid.

Stag

icemanat95
12-12-2005, 20:37
And the German minimum 4 weeks vacation....

I live with two Germans... they are amazed how hard Americans work for so little rest and payoff.

The condition of the German and French economies is a bit scary...I wonder why?

Blue Jay
12-12-2005, 20:45
What I'm saying here is that at some point you are going to have to buckle down and take care of your future, which means putting money away for retirement and old age expenses, setting up college funds for kids and otherwise providing a secure life for your loved ones.

I used to think this was true. Now that I'm a few years older I see a few problems with this plan. I knew 17 people who followed this plan, one was my grandfather and one was my father. They worked hard their whole lives and died long before retirement. I know 6 people who worked very hard all their lives and died within one year after they retired. Living in the future is very much like living in the past. That is, YOU'RE NOT LIVING NOW. If the kiddies want to go to college, let them pay for it, I did. All you own is time, once the clock ticks you don't get it back

Whistler
12-12-2005, 21:00
My ruminations, somewhat in the same boat... It's funny, I've been saying something like, "It would be cool to be a professor or a teacher" for YEARS. But I just started taking my own advice seriously. :datz I love reading, learning, and talking about Big Ideas--so I'm aiming for the professorate. I'll get to think and teach and write for 8-10 months of the year. Then every now and then I get to do something else for a couple months [i.e. hike and travel]. I believe WB user Chris has a somewhat similar strategy. Academia can have its perks.

But anyway, the point is--if it doesn't feel right, it's probably not right. You probably have some ideas of what completes your own "It would be cool to..." sentence--make it happen.

I'd recommend reading Robin & Dominguez' "Your Money or Your Life." Not for the investment advice, but for some practical, hands-on, day-to-day ideas that will help you understand your relationship with money. It can be an eye-opener. Elaine St. James' books are also quick reads. Suze Orman's "9 Steps..." is also a good read. So, I suggest hose books is to help reach an understanding of your financial goals for the future, and the life-work balance you want to have now. They can help frame your goals and perhaps spur some ideas of where to re-align your life with what you value.

And like Tim Rich says, absolutely start doing some serious retirement planning and plowing money away for later. A penny saved is a penny earned.

-Mark

smokymtnsteve
12-12-2005, 22:13
So what does Abbey propose to do with all those dern people who keep multiplying? Gotta put 'em somewhere...maybe they should just expire and save us the troublesome expansion issues.

PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!

"The purpose of love, sex, and marriage is the production and raising of children. But look about you: Most people have no business having children. They are unqualified, either genetically or culturally or both, to reproduce such sorry specimens as themselves. Of all our privileges, the license to breed is the one most grossly abused."

"Homosexuality, like androgyny, might be an instinctive racial response to overpopulation, crowding, and stress. Both flourish when empire reaches its apogee."

"Women who love only women may have a good point."


THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

Just Jeff
12-12-2005, 23:02
Ok...but that still doesn't answer the question. People are reproducing. What do we do with them?

liv2play
12-12-2005, 23:47
There is no question quit that ****ass job hike the trail then move out west and the minute you see the front range or any rocky mountain range and the wealth of opportunitys it offers you will see the light....

Shutterbug
12-12-2005, 23:50
Is it worth it to spend the next 3 decades earning enough money, so that you can FINALLY start living at 55 or 60?



A-Train. I invite you to check my "Done That List." http://www.davemcclung.com/donethat.html Does it sound like I sent the last 3 decades just earning enough money to retire?

The point is simply that if you don't choose to work hard when you are young, you will have to when you get older -- just to survive.

I just retired (for the 3rd time). That doesn't mean that I haven't had a great time along the way. But, if I had not jumped on the "corporate ladder" when I was young, I wouldn't have had the option to do so later on. The unfortunate truth is that if you aren't making big bucks when you turn 40, you probably won't ever.

I encourage you to find a person who is around my age (62) who "opted out" of the "rat race" back in the 1960's. Ask them if they had it to do over again, would they make the same choice? A lot of friends who went to high school with me decided that LSD and the hippy life style were the way to go. Unfortunately, not many of them are still living. Those who are alive are having a tough time paying their medical bills and are planning to live out the remainder of their lives in a low budget nursing home -- not a life style I would seek.

I certainly don't suggest that you spend the next four decades doing something you don't like. I am suggesting that you find a job where you can make a positive contribution to society and get on with it. If you miss the opportunity, it may not come by again.

Shutterbug
12-12-2005, 23:56
Thank you for your service.:clap This country owes a debt to everyone who served in the Armed Forces that can never be repaid.

Stag

I appreciate your kind remarks. I am glad to have been of service. That seems like a long time ago.

stag3
12-13-2005, 00:00
The point is simply that if you don't choose to work hard when you are young, you will have to when you get older -- just to survive.

Yea, it's like the Fram filter commercial, pay me now or pay me later. Sometime during your adult life you need to work hard (or maybe smart). The choice is individual, but Shutterbug is right on.

Young and poor can be fixed, but old and poor is irreversible (ie, you're screwed).

lobster
12-13-2005, 01:44
"So what does Abbey propose to do with all those dern people who keep multiplying? Gotta put 'em somewhere...maybe they should just expire and save us the troublesome expansion issues."

We should have national elimination month where we get to eliminate all people we don't like without having to go to jail.

Nuking Mexico heavily might also be a good start!
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

smokymtnsteve
12-13-2005, 02:25
Ok...but that still doesn't answer the question. People are reproducing. What do we do with them?


heck I dunno..maybe pack'em into overcrowded cities

while I pack up and move to AK ;)

smokymtnsteve
12-13-2005, 02:28
A-Train. I invite you to check my "Done That List." http://www.davemcclung.com/donethat.html Does it sound like I sent the last 3 decades just earning enough money to retire?

The point is simply that if you don't choose to work hard when you are young, you will have to when you get older -- just to survive.

I just retired (for the 3rd time). That doesn't mean that I haven't had a great time along the way. But, if I had not jumped on the "corporate ladder" when I was young, I wouldn't have had the option to do so later on. The unfortunate truth is that if you aren't making big bucks when you turn 40, you probably won't ever.

I encourage you to find a person who is around my age (62) who "opted out" of the "rat race" back in the 1960's. Ask them if they had it to do over again, would they make the same choice? A lot of friends who went to high school with me decided that LSD and the hippy life style were the way to go. Unfortunately, not many of them are still living. Those who are alive are having a tough time paying their medical bills and are planning to live out the remainder of their lives in a low budget nursing home -- not a life style I would seek.

I certainly don't suggest that you spend the next four decades doing something you don't like. I am suggesting that you find a job where you can make a positive contribution to society and get on with it. If you miss the opportunity, it may not come by again.


PLEASE STAND FOR THE GOSPEL OF ABBEY!
The ready availability of suicide, like sex and alcohol, is one of life's basic consolations.
~
Suicide: Don't knock it if you ain't tried it.
~
There are circumstances in which suicide presents a viable option; a workable alternative; the only sensible solution."

THANKS BE TO ABBEY!

justusryans
12-13-2005, 08:21
Couldn't agree more!

iarucu
12-14-2005, 21:18
[quote=Shutterbug]A-Train. I invite you to check my "Done That List." http://www.davemcclung.com/donethat.html Does it sound like I sent the last 3 decades just earning enough money to retire?


I see on your list you flew combat helicopter missions in Vietnam (respect). I've got a book in my hands just now - Chickenhawk by Robert Mason - a Vietnam pilot. It's mong the best warbooks and autobiographys I've read. Have you read it? If so is it as accurate a picture of that life as it seems.
Iain

Shutterbug
12-15-2005, 02:33
[quote=Shutterbug]A-Train. I invite you to check my "Done That List." http://www.davemcclung.com/donethat.html Does it sound like I sent the last 3 decades just earning enough money to retire?


I see on your list you flew combat helicopter missions in Vietnam (respect). I've got a book in my hands just now - Chickenhawk by Robert Mason - a Vietnam pilot. It's mong the best warbooks and autobiographys I've read. Have you read it? If so is it as accurate a picture of that life as it seems.
Iain

I have heard of the book, but have not read it. I don't do much reading about Vietnam. My own experience was a character building experience, but I know others who carry deep scars. I have moved on.

One thing about Vietnam, and I expect the same is true about Iraq, is that different people from the same war have widely different experiences. My role was intelligence gathering, so my experience was a lot different from the helicopter pilots who were in direct combat.

But all of the different perspectives aren't the result of different roles. Sometimes, people in exactly the same situation just react differently. I am almost embarrased to admit that I enjoyed the excitment. I thrived in the war environment, while one of the men who served along side of me had a nervous breakdown from the "stress."

Back to the topic of whether or not the descriptions in the book fairly describe what happened in Vietnam. Even without reading it, I will answer "Yes." If we ever meet up in an AT shelter somewhere I can fill your evening with war stories. I am sure that the author has done the same.

justusryans
12-15-2005, 08:58
My father did 3 tours in Veitnam, he NEVER spoke of it...

Cookerhiker
12-15-2005, 10:14
.... And BTW, some of the hardest working people I know work for the government.....

First of all, thanks MOWGLI. I worked for the federal government over 30 years and worked damn hard. In some ways I didn't mind because I was working for the public, for the taxpayer and I was pretty well paid my last 10 years. In the "corporate world," the benefits/rewards for employees who work hard (my brother is an example) accrue to the executives and stockholders, not the employees themselves. K-man, whatever you do professionally, don't get yourself in a situation where you work hard so that your bosses get the benefits. Even if they throw you a few crumbs in the way of an occasional measly bonus, don't let yourself get exploited.

I felt I pursued the right path. Yeah, I didn't take any extended leave and couldn't thru-hike the AT while I was working but with the government, I counted on decent pay, good benefits, better-than-average vacation time, and best of all, the possibility of full retirement at age 55. Sure, when I was 30 that seemed like a long time away but it came. When I was in my mid-30s, I had the opportunity for higher salary of the greener pastures of the private sector but asked myself: did I really want to bust my butt for 60+ hours a week (plus face a longer commute) and work until I was 65?

The point is that at age 57, I'm really enjoying my retirement and am in better physical shape than 30 years ago. Yes there were frustrating times and sometimes I wished I could just take off, hike the entire AT, drive across the country, etc. But it's not like I did nothing fun in my 30 years working; I still had time for shorter backpacks and camping trips. My wife and I raised 2 daughters and in a manner of lucky planning, the youngest graduated from college the month I retired. And neither one of my daughters will work for the corporate world - one just received her PhD in aquatic ecology and the other's in the Peace Corps in Africa (brag, brag!).

I realize it's a different world now. For example, if you want to be a homeowner where you live in Northern NJ, you'll need to earn some big bucks. And even government jobs aren't as secure as they used to be. But since you're able to retain your job while taking enough time off LWOP to thru-hike, it sounds like you have a situation that most others your age would envy. Most of the suggestions on this thread are very sound - consider graduate school (I got my MBA) and career counseling. Start putting away funds now for retirement. And don't fall for the canard that the only way to be "professional" or "career-oriented" is to aspire to high and influential management positions.

Good luck to you - hope we see you on the Trail.

Shutterbug
12-15-2005, 13:44
My father did 3 tours in Veitnam, he NEVER spoke of it...

Some veterans don't talk about their experiences because they are painful, others, just because they have moved on in their lives. I know several Vietnam Veterans who have allowed their veteran status to become their whole life. I respect them for their service, but to me, life is a lot more than the 5 years I spent in that particular role. I am not hesitant to talk about those experiences when people ask, but I rarely bring the subject up.

You spoke of your father in the past tense, but I don't want to make any assumptions. If your father is still living, it would be a healthy thing for you to invite him to share his war stories with you. You will probably be surprised at how freely he will share and how deep the emotions run. Even if he never talks about it, the memories are still there. In particular, ask about how many medals he got and the story behind them. You deserve to know.

Mags
12-15-2005, 13:56
My father did 3 tours in Veitnam, he NEVER spoke of it...

Seems common with many veterans. My grandfather was the same way about his WW2 days. Anything I know of his time in combat from reading a book that was published about his division [1] and a few snippets heard from my granddmother that was told after his funeral. When I went to Italy in Septmeber, part of the trip was going to Anzio and seeing where my grandfather fought.

"War is hell". I am forturnate not have to experience this type of horror.


[1] THE ROCK OF ANZIO if anyone is curious. Bill Mauldin of "Willy and Joe" cartoon fame was also in my grandfather's division, so have two books by him as well. The cartoons may be from ww2, but the grousing about bad food, mud, and dumb officers is probably still true today!
http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/02/nov02/mauldin/

Mags
12-15-2005, 14:13
In particular, ask about how many medals he got and the story behind them. You deserve to know.

Sorry to tell another of my grandfather, but this story seems appropriate as well.

My youngest brother once asked our grandfather how he earned his medals (among them, two bronze stars). He had them discreetly displayed downstairs. Anyway, our grandfather simply said "Steven, I'd rather not talk about that". Think he saw many terrible things, and though he was proud of his service, it was not something he wanted to dwell upon, esp. with his young grandsons.

To my regret, I never did ask him about these days when I was older. He passsed away in 2000 when I was 26. Like many teenagers and people in their early twenties, life became busy and I never did think about asking Pop about these days. By the time I was mature enough to ask/appreciate the stories, and for Pop to feel comfortable telling them, it was too late. Dementia started setting in by 1997/98.

Now I turn to books, stories my Grandma tells and the few stories my Dad knows.

Tim Rich
12-15-2005, 15:24
I used to think this was true. Now that I'm a few years older I see a few problems with this plan. I knew 17 people who followed this plan, one was my grandfather and one was my father. They worked hard their whole lives and died long before retirement. I know 6 people who worked very hard all their lives and died within one year after they retired. Living in the future is very much like living in the past. That is, YOU'RE NOT LIVING NOW. If the kiddies want to go to college, let them pay for it, I did. All you own is time, once the clock ticks you don't get it back

The problem with any plan is that it's not predictable. Living and working are not mutually exclusive. I look forward to retirement in 15 years, 10 months, but in the 19 years since college while working, I've had a ball. Married and raising three boys continues to be a joy, and being involved in my community has been fulfilling. I was able to sneak away a little each year to section hike, finishing up the AT this year after starting in 1989. Work has been fulfilling, but as with any situation it's what you make it, and what generally makes it special are the relationships you have with others.

I know far more than 17 that pursued the plan of working until retirement. Looking one and two generations back may not be the best example given today's life expectancies and quality of life. Several of my recently retired coworkers have taken RVs for cross country jaunts, two rode their Harleys to Key West, then San Diego, then Fairbanks, and then back through Canada and the U.S. to Madawaska, Maine for one huge four corners tour. Some neat stuff at http://hamricknet.net/2005-4-Corners/4_corners.htm Another is readying a 54 foot Hatteras to circumnavigate the eastern U.S. up the Intracoastal from Savannah, across waterways to the Great Lakes, then the Mississippi, Tenn-Tom to Mobile and back across Florida and home again. About 16 months, less time to winter.

Some are homebodies. One recent retiree, and avid outdoorsman who did the 76 miles with me from Damascus to Groseclose, went to Oregon to learn how to construct his log cabin from trees on his land using no industrial lifts. I believe he would be content to stay at home for the rest of his days.

Out of the dozens of retirees I know, only one lasted less than five years in retirement, and he was a wonderful dear friend who had abused himself mightily for a long time. I think he put it best: "Tim, for 27 years I drank a fifth of vodka every single night. 27 years. Then I had a spell and the doctor told me that if I didn't quit drinkin' I'd die. So I quit cold turkey, and I never had any DTs or withdrawals. Tim, for years I always thought I was an alcoholic, but then I found out I just loved the stuff and was just a damned old drunk!" He only lasted about four years. One of my favority Jimmy Johnson quotes is "Tim, remember if you happen up on me at work and I'm dead, make sure you say I died at 6:15 so I'll get that last quarter of per diem." My ode to JJ is, to the tune of the Wabash Cannonball, "If I die in travel status, sign me out at 6:15" My second favorite JJ quote is appropriate just before Independence Day - "If you're gonna drink a fifth on the Fourth, you better buy it on the third."

Sorry for the ramble.

Make your plans, knowing that, like hiking, they rarely work out the way you thought. Work, knowing that what you're doing matters, if only in the way you affect the people you meet. Put aside for retirement, make friends and make the best out of the circumstances you encounter.

Take Care,

Tim

RockyTrail
12-15-2005, 16:07
[quote=Shutterbug]A-Train. I invite you to check my "Done That List." http://www.davemcclung.com/donethat.html Does it sound like I sent the last 3 decades just earning enough money to retire?


I see on your list you flew combat helicopter missions in Vietnam (respect). I've got a book in my hands just now - Chickenhawk by Robert Mason - a Vietnam pilot. It's mong the best warbooks and autobiographys I've read. Have you read it? If so is it as accurate a picture of that life as it seems.
Iain

Hey, I've read that book; it's darn good and my helicopter buddy liked it too. Amazing that part about letting off the tail rotor pitch to get the extra hp to hop a fenceline when overloaded...by the way since you're in the UK, check out "First Light" by Geoff Wellum it's one of the absolute best pilot autos I've ever read, I found it at Duxford and remained glued to my seat until finished.

Shutterbug, thank you for serving our country as you did; I was pulling for you fellows through all those years. I know you have moved on with your life, but what you did still carries a lot of weight with so many of us and always will, so don't be surprised if people ask, it's their way of showing respect.

Sorry, back to the thread at hand...stay flexible, K-man and watch out for those opportunities. So-called "Luck" is just really preparation meeting opportunity.

QHShowoman
12-15-2005, 16:40
K-Man I think you need to see a career counselor. They have test to show you what you are good at. They will also talk to you about what you like to do. They will help you understand how important money or power or being outdoors is to you.


This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard. Those standardized tests are just that ... standardized. The discussion in this thread will probably be more helpful than anything a lone career counselor will say.


I feel sorry for you if you made it though college and don’t do something you love to do.

Please, few people have the good fortune of graduating from college and landing the job that they will love for the rest of their lives. Your first couple of jobs are usually more about figuring out what direction you are headed in and less about finding a place to settle in for the long haul. If you manage to do the latter, you are either not setting your sights very high or just plain lucky.
<o =""></o>

I will also say you are what you do before 30. After 30 it is hard to change direction.

I really don't think this holds true anymore. At one time, I think folks were pretty much locked into their line of work for life ... but nowadays, with technology making it possible for people to telecommute, start their own businesses more easily, etc., it is fairly common for folks to change their career direction mid-stream. Additionally, as women are starting to hold off on marriage and childbearing until later in life, the face of the workforce has totally changed. Shortly after I turned 30, I left a successful career in non-profit fundraising for a job as the director of client education for a software company .... little in my "before 30" life prepared me for this!

The Solemates
12-15-2005, 18:34
My ruminations, somewhat in the same boat... It's funny, I've been saying something like, "It would be cool to be a professor or a teacher" for YEARS. But I just started taking my own advice seriously. :datz I love reading, learning, and talking about Big Ideas--so I'm aiming for the professorate. I'll get to think and teach and write for 8-10 months of the year. Then every now and then I get to do something else for a couple months [i.e. hike and travel]. I believe WB user Chris has a somewhat similar strategy. Academia can have its perks.


-Mark

thats my plan as well....

but as in every job, you have to be committed to have fun. so many professors get bogged down into thinking they have to climb the academic ladder by getting tenured, piling more and more research on their plate, and working 60 hour weeks because they are their own boss and think they have to. you have to set time to play. im not in it to become bigtime, just make a living and be able to travel a lot in the summer months. i will work very hard and strive to do my best, but i also know when its time to go play.

Just Jeff
12-15-2005, 19:56
There are also PhD teaching jobs that don't require research. I forget the name, but a few schools are starting to get them. Obviously not the big research schools, but your tenure and pay are tied to classes and such rather than original research and published works. If you like teaching and working with the students, that might be the way to go - concentrate on what you like rather than pushing it aside to climb the ladder.

When I retire from the AF, I'll probably end up doing that or teaching HS ROTC. (HS ROTC is an awesome deal for retired military if you can find a position - you get to work with the kids, get full pay for your rank instead of teacher pay, AND you're on the school's schedule with all that hiking time off in the summer, a relatively low-stress job, etc.)

Footslogger
12-15-2005, 20:23
If you want some current information from a hiker turned university professor you might contact my wife (BadAss Turtle) here on Whiteblaze. She hiked the AT in 2001 to gather her disseration data and completed her Ph.D in 2002. She now teaches here at the University of Wyoming. I know that her position is tenure track oriented and has a teaching, research and service component but I don't know the exact percentage spent on each. Shoot her a PM or an e-mail and I know she'll be happy to share whatever info she has on the topic.

'Slogger

Shutterbug
12-15-2005, 20:38
[quote=MagsBy the time I was mature enough to ask/appreciate the stories, and for Pop to feel comfortable telling them, it was too late. Dementia started setting in by 1997/98.

Now I turn to books, stories my Grandma tells and the few stories my Dad knows.[/quote]

That happens to many of us. I am very fortunate. When my grandfather was 98 years old, I sat down with granddad and a tape recorder. I spent several hours asking him about his early years. From that interview I have a lot of family history that isn't written down anywhere. He was born in 1885, so he remembered seeing men wearing tattered civil war uniforms. He entered "Indian Territory" before Oklahoma was opened to white settlers. He was an adult when he saw his first automobile, but lived to see men walk on the moon. What a life!! I am blessed to have a lot of his memories on tape.

iarucu
12-15-2005, 21:36
My father did 3 tours in Veitnam, he NEVER spoke of it...

For understandable reasons it seems a common reaction that veterans don't speak about their experiences. My grandfather was in the trenches on the western front for 4 years in world war 1 and never spoke much to the family about it. Two of his brothers died during the war and a 3rd drowned when a troopship sank 30 miles from home in 1919. How do you talk about that?
I've never been in the forces but I have worked with a few vets of the Falklands and the first Gulf war. They didn't tend to talk about it either.
Needless to say I respect anyone who serves or has served their country in the armed forces.
To get back on topic. I would agree with the school of thought that you don't want to leave it too late in life before getting some kind of financial security. I've worked full time for 27 yrs since I left school. Another 4 years and I will be in a position that will let me explore other options. Things I have in mind are a few long walks (including the AT of course) and a few long cycletours.
I'm quite happy with the way I've done things. Although I can see an argument for aiming for a job like teaching which combines financial security with holidays long enough to do most things.
The most important thing though is a job that satisfies. You spend too long at work to do it for the money.
Iain

sparky2000
12-15-2005, 21:41
What a pity u finished college. Now if u doo the military for excitement and pleasure, u'll have to be a ucky officer pretending to be a real plant in the forest. Jump.

iarucu
12-15-2005, 21:42
[quote=RockyTrail][quote=iarucu]

...............by the way since you're in the UK, check out "First Light" by Geoff Wellum it's one of the absolute best pilot autos I've ever read, I found it at Duxford and remained glued to my seat until finished.

Thanks I'll look for it.
Iain

The Solemates
12-16-2005, 10:36
There are also PhD teaching jobs that don't require research. I forget the name, but a few schools are starting to get them. Obviously not the big research schools, but your tenure and pay are tied to classes and such rather than original research and published works. If you like teaching and working with the students, that might be the way to go - concentrate on what you like rather than pushing it aside to climb the ladder.



I would love to hear more about this. I know this exists in smaller community colleges, but does this same "teach only, minor research" philosophy apply at any larger colleges? particularly universities with engineering backgrounds? none that I am aware of, but please inform me if you know otherwise.

The Solemates
12-16-2005, 10:38
If you want some current information from a hiker turned university professor you might contact my wife (BadAss Turtle) here on Whiteblaze. She hiked the AT in 2001 to gather her disseration data and completed her Ph.D in 2002. She now teaches here at the University of Wyoming. I know that her position is tenure track oriented and has a teaching, research and service component but I don't know the exact percentage spent on each. Shoot her a PM or an e-mail and I know she'll be happy to share whatever info she has on the topic.

'Slogger

Id love to hear what your wife has to say. I will send an email.

Red Hat
12-16-2005, 12:14
My daughter is finishing up her PHD right now. She has applied to a number of universities that do not require a lot of research. Her field is Speech Communication and there are quite a few schools that want teachers interested in teaching. (surprise!) She applied to schools from MA to CA and got a number of interviews. She'll probably end up at one of two schools in KY.

The sad part is that she and her family will be moving out of our area. Her university said that she is the best advertising for their PHD program and they want her teaching elsewhere so she can help encourage undergrads to think about them for grad school. It makes sense, but she loves teaching where she is and would give anything to stay.

Anyway, I suppose the amount of research required is tied to the field you are in. Ask your advisors, I'm sure they know which universities are research oriented and which are teaching oriented.

RWBlue
12-16-2005, 13:12
QHShowoman, I can see I was not communicating with you. Maybe there are others on the list that feel the same way you do.

I think the standardized tests have a place, but they are not the end all there is. They give general direction. They give you a way of understanding yourself. If you excel in math (I didn’t), maybe you should look into a job that deals with numbers (engineer, bookkeeper, accountant). If you suck at reading comprehension, you should probably not take a job where that is a key for success, at least not until you work on remediating this skill. If you are not a delegater, you should not look at being a manager until you master this skill. If you live for money, expensive stuff, … are essential in your (or goals in your life), working a minimum wage job will not suit you.

As far as first jobs out of college. You are right. What I was trying to say is, I was lucky to find a field (not a job) that I enjoyed while in college. I met a bricklayer that graduated college as a nuclear physicist. I met an insurance salesman that graduated medical school as a Chiropractor. They were happy doing what I feel sorry for anyone who spends that much time in school, just to find out that they hate their career/job field after they graduate. Finding the right job can be hard, but finding the right field shouldn’t be.

As far as before 30 and after 30. It doesn’t hold true for everything. It is a very good guideline. Old dog and new trick. It goes alone with “young and poor is fixable, old and poor isn’t”. It also applies to military service, because you can not join the military after age (30 or is it 35 now). It is hard to change careers without support after you are already established. If you are a criminal at age 29, you will probably not be a cop at age 31 (although there are exception). If you physically abuse your body up to the age of 30, you will feel it for the rest of your life. All in all it is just a guideline.

Shutterbug
12-16-2005, 14:32
I would love to hear more about this. I know this exists in smaller community colleges, but does this same "teach only, minor research" philosophy apply at any larger colleges? particularly universities with engineering backgrounds? none that I am aware of, but please inform me if you know otherwise.

Perhaps I can share some insight. I just retired from being president of a church affilliated liberal arts college in the Northeast.

The employment climate in higher education is changing fairly rapidly. It is creating a lot of tension between the traditional ways of learning and creative alternatives. Among the more traditional schools, a PhD (research in a narrow field) is still preferred, but some schools have started emphasizing a "terminal degree." That means the highest degree normally offered in a particular field. In my case, it is a JD (Juris Doctor).

Tenure is still an issue in many schools, and it is easier for a PhD to get tenure than for faculty with other terminal degrees.

In the specific field you mentioned, engineering, most schools still prefer a PhD. I was an "outside member" of the curriculum committee for Texas A & M University a few years ago, when a decision was made to emphasize "practical experience" over research. A number of faculty were hired from major construction and engineering companies. After a few years, the dean changed and they reverted back to a preference for PhD faculty. Based on my observation most major engineering schools now prefer a PhD.

The bottom line -- it isn't absolutely necessary for college faculty to pursue a PhD, but there is still a distinct advantage. If you have a choice, go for the PhD.

The Solemates
12-16-2005, 15:00
Perhaps I can share some insight. I just retired from being president of a church affilliated liberal arts college in the Northeast.

The employment climate in higher education is changing fairly rapidly. It is creating a lot of tension between the traditional ways of learning and creative alternatives. Among the more traditional schools, a PhD (research in a narrow field) is still preferred, but some schools have started emphasizing a "terminal degree." That means the highest degree normally offered in a particular field. In my case, it is a JD (Juris Doctor).

Tenure is still an issue in many schools, and it is easier for a PhD to get tenure than for faculty with other terminal degrees.

In the specific field you mentioned, engineering, most schools still prefer a PhD. I was an "outside member" of the curriculum committee for Texas A & M University a few years ago, when a decision was made to emphasize "practical experience" over research. A number of faculty were hired from major construction and engineering companies. After a few years, the dean changed and they reverted back to a preference for PhD faculty. Based on my observation most major engineering schools now prefer a PhD.

The bottom line -- it isn't absolutely necessary for college faculty to pursue a PhD, but there is still a distinct advantage. If you have a choice, go for the PhD.

Ive already decided I am going for the PhD. I was asking about professorate jobs after that,as a career.

Shutterbug
12-16-2005, 15:03
Please, few people have the good fortune of graduating from college and landing the job that they will love for the rest of their lives. Your first couple of jobs are usually more about figuring out what direction you are headed in and less about finding a place to settle in for the long haul. If you manage to do the latter, you are either not setting your sights very high or just plain lucky.
<O =""></O>



I agree with you except for the last few words of your quote. I don't think a person who settles into one job for the "long haul" is lucky. Such a person misses a lot of the variety of life.

When I speak to college students, I encourage them to accept the reality that they will likely work in several distinctly different career fields during their lives. The time when a person can do the same thing for their entire career is past.

Personally, I have had five distinctly different careers (pilot, lawyer, executive, educator and investor). While I have valued each one, life has been a lot more interesting because I changed jobs and careers from time to time. I certainly don't think life would have been more fulfilling if I had settled down in one of those careers for the long haul.

When it comes to work, variety is the spice of life.

weary
12-16-2005, 16:05
A lot of good advice above. Even Tim spoke some wise words. One doesn't need a lot of money to survive happily in this world, but one needs some and it's far better to earn that "some" in a job that you enjoy doing and that pays at least a moderate salary.

I bounced around for 12 years after high school, but eventually I found a job that I looked forward to going to daily. As a result, of course, I worked far more than the 40 hours a week the job required, much to the chagrin of my union buddies -- though they kept me on the guild executive committee.

With three kids and a batch of grandchildren, my only significant saving is the house I bought 40+ years ago and built and rebuilt several times. But we make do on social security and a small pension. Some day we may have to peddle the house, but for now we manage to eat healthily, travel a bit, contribute to the grandkids college expenses, and make regular contributions to my wife's church and to my two land trusts, and political interests.

In retrospect we have found that a good medical plan is more valuable than a high salary. My wife was in the hospital a few years back for six months. The total bill came to around 800 grand -- or about 40 years of my current income. Insurance paid it all.

Anyway, my advice is to find a job that is fun to do -- ideally, one like mine that allowed me to get paid for occasionally climbing mountains and canoeing rivers, and even for an occasional backpacking trip. I balanced that by almost always returning from vacations with a story or two that I contributed to the company's cause.

Of course, nothing's perfect. I took "early" retirement (well I was two months shy of 62) after a senior editor decided I didn't fit his image of an ideal reporter. I got revenge by hiking north to Maine from Springer and not offering him a story.

Weary

HarleyHogPit
12-16-2005, 20:40
So I graduated college last May and have been working in the corporate world since last August. (Aug 9 2004) I already see the pointlessness of climbing this ladder which just leads to more stress. I already have permission to take a Leave Without Pay (LWOP) in 2007 to do my thru hike. When I get to Katahdin in September 2007 I am sure the last thing I am going to want to do is go back to sitting behind a cubicle. The question is...What should I do with my life to be able to keep hiking and not be a slave to a middle manager? I have thought about working at ski lodge in VT during the off season and hiking the rest of the time. The only catch is that it's very hard to leave my cushy government job behind that guarantees me a steady paycheck, a well paid retirement, and health benefits. Should I just tough it out here and take LWOP's every five years to hike various long trails or should I just say F it and be trail trash? Can the all knowing WhiteBlaze shed some light on my philosophical dilema? :confused:

I don't think you should "just say F it and be trail trash" but I do think that if you are not happy with your job now you probably are not going to wake up one morning and suddenly be happy with it either. Take a little time to find out who you are and decide what kind of life style (extravagant or simple) you are most happy with. The time on the AT could very well give you a new perspective on life and shed some light onto the areas that you are seeing as dark areas right now. I'm hoping it will do the same for me.

We are about the same age so I understand the pressures of "settling down" in a "real" job with all the benefits. I tried that but right now that is just not for me. I've been getting a lot of crap from my family and friends pressuring me to have more direction in my life. I have a lot of direction in my life, I just may not be going in the direction everyone else wants me to be going. All of my friends are starting to get married, buy houses, and have children. Some are already divorced with 2 kids at 25 and are settled now whether they want to be or not.

Don't rush yourself but don't sit still either. Get out and experience the good things that life has to offer. Work hard but don't let it take over your life. Understand that you can find joy and fulfillment in life without getting lost in all of the material possessions that hold so may people back. Take care of your mind and body, that is the most important thing.

I want to enjoy my youth while I have it but I still work hard and support myself. I know how to save money because I don't buy things I don't need. I drive a POS car but it is paid for, my apartment is tiny but it has everything I need. With the kind of jobs I am working right now I can pay the bills and come and go as I please. Good thing for me I don't need a lot of "stuff".

I graduated from college two years ago and I have been working hard so I can do what I love to do the most which is travel. I studied what I wanted in college despite all of the pushes in the other direction. I put myself through school so I wanted to make sure that I was not wasting my time or money on something that could not make me happy. When I am ready I will figure out how to put that to good use.

Listen to your heart. If your heart is in the right place then it will lead you to your dreams. Everytime I have followed my heart even when others were discouraging me I have found something good that I would have otherwise missed. Everytime I have followed the heart of someone else I have found disappointment. I'd rather find out the hard way than take the easy way and miss out on so many wonderful things. Some people don't take time to listen to his/her heart so they give up without knowing what could have been. Do what makes you happy but first you have to figure out what that is. Don't let other people tell you how to live your life. Don't worry, don't rush, it will happen if you let it.

smokymtnsteve
12-16-2005, 22:02
well here is an interesting job....certainly not corporate


http://www.coolworks.com/helpnow/jobview.asp?JID=R-NWSARECRUITM-12/15/2005~b~3:27:43~b~PM

get paid to hike and be in the trail!

Smile
12-17-2005, 02:34
Check out the book, Rich Dad Poor Dad

Anumber1 ....great book, great advice!

The Hog
12-17-2005, 09:14
One of my hiking buddies, Bob, never made it to retirement. At 53, he was riding his bike and was hit by a car and killed instantly. So, I wouldn't recommend waiting until retirement to enjoy life. Most of us know too many people who died shortly before or after retirement and never got to enjoy life to the fullest.

This is not advice, just a story: I know a guy who worked full time for one year when he was in his early twenties, and decided that full-time work was not for him. So he decided not to. He worked part-time instead, and pretty much opted out of the materialistic treadmill that leads to debt and other problems. Instead, he spent much of his life doing what he wanted (hiking, skiing, canoeing, etc). He hiked the whole AT. He skied out west and in Europe. He traveled to many countries. When it came time to buy a house, he bought a very cheap, rundown farmhouse on 5 acres (avoiding the mortgage trap entirely), and set about rebuilding it, while raising a family (he married after hiking the AT). He raised chickens and organic vegetables and continued renovating his farmhouse, while working two or three days at real jobs. He built much of his own furniture and drove reliable cars with good gas mileage. In general, he lived a high quality life that did not require much money to sustain, and so, did not require working long hours. Most of the hours were his to do as he pleased. His family is reasonably happy and does not want for anything.
This story does not yet have an ending, because it continues to this day. As I mentioned, this is not advice, but simply another way to live one's life.

Shutterbug
12-17-2005, 22:25
In general, he lived a high quality life that did not require much money to sustain, and so, did not require working long hours. Most of the hours were his to do as he pleased. His family is reasonably happy and does not want for anything.


OK, but what has he done to help others?

You described two life styles: One working hard to buy a lot of stuff and another not working hard. There is a much more fulfilling option: Working hard to benefit others. After I have passed from this world, it won't make much difference whether I had fun or not. Only what I have done for others will have lasting consequence. Somehow, I would like for my years on this world to count for something.

jmaclennan
12-18-2005, 01:49
k-man, congratulations on asking the question! there's some good advice here. good luck. i say, just keep your eyes open, see what happens on the trail and reassess afterward.

solemates et al., just got my ph.d. in sociology in october. the topic of my dissertation was, incidentally, the social world of AT long distance hikers. teaching at umbc now (not tenure-track though). academe is in general a great gig. descent pay, good benefits, autonomy (e.g. no one over my shoulder telling me what to teach, when i'm making tests, grading, etc.), great schedule, great time off (about a month in late dec. into january and over 3 months in the summer), generally good work environment (lots of interesting people, nuts here and there). in my field and many others, you can gear yourself for a more research- or teaching-oriented career and get a job at a place that fits you. the trend for quite a while though has been for institutions to seek out more research-oriented academics. for instance, the proportion of ph.d.s at community colleges is said to have been increasing over the years (even if professors there do very little subsequent research). also, at the 9,000-student, state university i was at last year, there was a lot of talk about increasing the publication demands for tenure and promotion (i know this is the case other places). that said, you can still get a job as a college professor and mainly teach (committee work is inevitable wherever you go); you don't necessarily have to publish frequently or go to a lot of academic conferences (teaching conferences, maybe). It may not be that easy to get one of these jobs though. plus, it took me 8 years to get my m.a. and ph.d. (after 4 years of college), 6 months of which i was hiking the trail and engaging in participant observations for my dissertation. i don't think i could have done this simply for the perks of academic life. it was extremely difficult, and doable only because i really enjoy the discipline of sociology (not saying you don't). anyway, pm me if you have any specific questions.

Shutterbug
12-18-2005, 02:55
the topic of my dissertation was, incidentally, the social world of AT long distance hikers.

Is your dissertation online? Frankly, I have only read a few dissertations that I enjoyed, but I am interested in your topic.

Heater
12-18-2005, 03:52
I used to think this was true. Now that I'm a few years older I see a few problems with this plan. I knew 17 people who followed this plan, one was my grandfather and one was my father. They worked hard their whole lives and died long before retirement. I know 6 people who worked very hard all their lives and died within one year after they retired. Living in the future is very much like living in the past. That is, YOU'RE NOT LIVING NOW. If the kiddies want to go to college, let them pay for it, I did. All you own is time, once the clock ticks you don't get it back

I see the same thing happening. Time and time again. I will retire THE SECOND I am eligible. Not a day later.

They have it all worked out where you work all your life and then retire and die shortly after. Now when people live a little longer I wil expect them to raise the retirement age to 75.

I see some people that come back after retirement and "double dip" full time. That is collecting a retirement check and also a regular paycheck.
:datz

Must be really lonely in their real life, really need the money or greed has taken over their lives. :(

The Hog
12-18-2005, 08:18
OK, but what has he done to help others?

Not everybody has the calling to be Mother Teresa. But, since you asked, I will say that he has kids and spends much of his time meeting their needs. Ask any parent how hard they work for their kids. Plus, his part-time work benefits society as a whole. If he chooses to carve out time for himself, more power to him.

You described two life styles: One working hard to buy a lot of stuff and another not working hard. There is a much more fulfilling option: Working hard to benefit others. After I have passed from this world, it won't make much difference whether I had fun or not. Only what I have done for others will have lasting consequence. Somehow, I would like for my years on this world to count for something.

I never said he didn't work hard. He's just not working as many hours as most people. And while you're still alive, how much fun you have will make a huge difference to one very important person: yourself. And add your friends and loved ones, too, because if you're not happy, you're not going to be much good at benefitting others.

The Hog
12-18-2005, 08:20
Whoops! Sorry about that. The paragraph starting "Not everybody has the calling to be Mother Teresa.." should be attributed to me, not Shutterbug.

Tinker
12-18-2005, 16:18
Find out what captivates your heart and give it all you have.

No regrets!(:datz ).

:D

QHShowoman
12-19-2005, 12:54
I agree with you except for the last few words of your quote. I don't think a person who settles into one job for the "long haul" is lucky. Such a person misses a lot of the variety of life.


I couldn't agree with you more on this ... I guess you are only "lucky" if settling in for the long haul is what you desire!

QHShowoman
12-19-2005, 13:07
They were happy doing what I feel sorry for anyone who spends that much time in school, just to find out that they hate their career/job field after they graduate. Finding the right job can be hard, but finding the right field shouldn’t be.

What you study in college these days usually ends up having little bearing on what jobs you find once you graduate. Most employers only care whether or not you have a undergraduate degree, period. With the exception of specialized fields in the sciences, some aspects of business/accounting, and engineering, you can probably land any other entry-level type job with a good old generic BA in liberal arts. But, undeniably, it would suck to go through med school to find out you hate being a doctor.



As far as before 30 and after 30. It doesn’t hold true for everything. It is a very good guideline. Old dog and new trick. It goes alone with “young and poor is fixable, old and poor isn’t”. It also applies to military service, because you can not join the military after age (30 or is it 35 now). It is hard to change careers without support after you are already established. If you are a criminal at age 29, you will probably not be a cop at age 31 (although there are exception). If you physically abuse your body up to the age of 30, you will feel it for the rest of your life. All in all it is just a guideline.

But it is a really outdated guideline. 30 is no longer the marker for middle-agedom ... the examples you give are really limited (and just kind of silly) and don't pertain to your "regular, every-day" career choices. There are few people -- at 30 -- who are "already established" in their professions. I read somewhere that the average age for college graduates is 25 ... so at 30, you are just moving out of the entry-level stages of your career ...