Clothing for early April start?

[JaketheFake]

Yesterday I asked a simple questions regarding a liner and it lead to a real discovery. I am ditching my sleeping bag and my liner for a 20* EE Quilt and by doing so will save over a pound! As of now I plan to sleep in REI silk base layer (8 ounces total) so the net weight savings is reduced, but with the base layers I am a little more versatile.

With that problem solved I still feel like I am a little light in terms of cold evenings. Here is what I am planning on carrying and some background....
1. Starting April 6
2. I live in Houston, by April the cold is pretty much well gone. I won't be accustomed to below 40 by then.
3. I am an outdoorsman and I understand layering and being out in the cold, but I don't like being cold. The reason why I am putting way too much thought into this.

As of today I am planning to carry the following cold weather items:
1. Beanie
2. Light gloves
3. Patagonia Puff Hoodie
4. LL Bean Micro-Fleece Pullover
5. REI Poly LS Tshirt
6. Kuhl Liberator Convertible Pants
7. REI Silk Base Layers (see above for sleeping)
8. Marmot Rain Pants and Jacket
9. Balaclava

This just seems light to me and what I keep going back to are additional (heavier) base layers. Assume I use the silk base layers for sleeping does it make sense to also carry say a Cap 2 or Cap 3 top and bottom or possibly a merino wool top and bottom?

I am not worried about the daytime hiking. Experience suggests it can be pretty cold while active and one stays warm. Its the mornings and evenings that I want to make less miserable. Your thoughts are appreciated.

[saltysack]

Ditch fleece..don't need puffy and fleece..just my .02.....if could hiking the rain jacket is plenty. Puffy under 20* quilt is more than sufficien


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[saltysack]

Damn fat fingers. I find running shorts are plenty to just above freezing on the move. I typically sleep in cap 3 bottoms and cap 4 exped wt hoody during the winter.. By late April it should be plenty warm. That with puffy is plenty for me.


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[colorado_rob]

I like your kit, essentially the same as mine except the balaclava. ditch the balaclava.

My early April start included, as compared to yours:

1) 0.9 oz fleece beanie
2) UL liner gloves, maybe wore them once or twice, but at 1oz, probably worth starting with, carry through April.
3) Montbell UL down sweater, 7 ounces
4) Columbia micro fleece, wore it a lot over baselayer merino wool top
5) Merino wool 1/4 zip long sleeve top
6) REI convertible (Sahara) pants
7) No "base layer" bottom needed as already have two layers of pants (convertibles and rain pants)
8) Dri Duck jacket and pants, 11 oz total and twenty bucks. However: I no longer like the Dri Duck jacket, they seem to have changed how they make them. So I now carry an Arcteryz SL jacket, 11 oz I think, but still the Dri Duck pants
9) No Balaclava.

That's my AT starting kit for early april, and I was never cold.

[CoconutTree]

For camp warmth, it sure is nice to have some army surplus field pants liners. Cheap (mine were $10) and you can send them home as soon as it warms up a bit. A bit of a luxury item, but worth considering.

[JaketheFake]

I like your kit, essentially the same as mine except the balaclava. ditch the balaclava.

My early April start included, as compared to yours:

1) 0.9 oz fleece beanie
2) UL liner gloves, maybe wore them once or twice, but at 1oz, probably worth starting with, carry through April.
3) Montbell UL down sweater, 7 ounces
4) Columbia micro fleece, wore it a lot over baselayer merino wool top
5) Merino wool 1/4 zip long sleeve top
6) REI convertible (Sahara) pants
7) No "base layer" bottom needed as already have two layers of pants (convertibles and rain pants)
8) Dri Duck jacket and pants, 11 oz total and twenty bucks. However: I no longer like the Dri Duck jacket, they seem to have changed how they make them. So I now carry an Arcteryz SL jacket, 11 oz I think, but still the Dri Duck pants
9) No Balaclava.

That's my AT starting kit for early april, and I was never cold.

I see the gloves and the balaclava in the same light...3.8 ounces of insurance. I may even get lighter gloves that will take that down an ounce. For now the balaclava stays on the list.

I am going to try the merino wool, but I am leaning towards Cap. Its going to take some experimenting to determine.

My rain gear weighs 2x yours...hmmm.

[Just Bill]

One thing unique about a LD hike like the AT, is that a typical hike spans 3-4 seasons of weather. One interesting thing is that folks start backwards and worry about the start of the trail conditions. Makes sense as most will not finish, but as most plan to finish, might as well start in the middle and save some weight, money, and time. In addition, your clothing and sleep system could be tightly integrated for additional savings and even luxury.

The layering approach to clothes is still the best; base layer, insulation, and shell. What most ignore though is that these are interchangeable as the seasons change.

What do you hike in come summertime? What do you sleep in?
This is an easy place to start really-
Shorts, skirt, or pants on bottom. Tank top, button up sun shirt, t-shirt, or merino top.
To this you choose a shell- wind or rain (or both) up top... bottoms are a bit debatable, but most folks find wind pants enough as true WPB pants are too hot.
It's handy to have a head to toe coverage for bugs, so think a bit what is most comfortable for that task as well if forced to wear those items while moving.

Most of your time is walking...
It's not uncommon to meet hikers dressed for summer into the 30's while moving. Simply moving is like adding 10-30* to your clothing system. Shorts, a base hiking top, perhaps a second layer for insulation and a shell top and or wind pant. So your summer gear frequently covers your three season wardrobe just fine while moving. It can also make up the bulk of your base layer clothing system year round.

Some of your time is stopping...
As soon as movement stops though, break, rest, view, etc. You cool quickly and a handy 15-20* of warmth is needed. Your body is still active, it's still daytime, and you will resume activity soon so your body doesn't cool as dramatically as when at camp. A light puffy or fleece is a standard choice here. Ideally a single piece you can add or remove quickly when needed that isn't super bulky. While western folks tend to like down for this, on eastern trails I think that a synthetic is a better choice. It is generally more durable, and even in UL shells the odd snag won't lead to your insulation drifting off all over the trail if you do get a boo-boo. With a good synthetic (primaloft or similiar) you don't have to worry about sweat, rain, or other issues degrading your insulation too much. Since it's in and out of your pack all day it makes good sense to get something you don't have to baby. For warmer folks, a Cap 4, or R1 (100wt) fleece or similar winter baselayer/summer insulation layer will also work well.

Some of your time is camping...
Come sundown, any time of year, the temps drop another 15-20*. And your activity level bottoms out.
Even in summer you could find yourself hanging out in 50* temps... so it makes sense to add a multipurpose insulation layer to that set of gear.
As temps fall another 20* to the 30's at camp, a puffy is needed to stay warm at camp. A sleeping bag or quilt can serve as an insulation layer for your legs, or a pair of down pants or Cap 4 bottoms with a windshell pant may fit your style better and allow you more movement around camp. Really your desired level of camping time and plans for the evening and morning will dictate this choice.

A SUL, 14-16 hour per day hiker may choose to simply rely on their sleep system for this task.
An average 8-10 hour per day hiker may want to add enough clothing to comfortably putter around camp, visit with folks, and rest up as they build trail legs or simply enjoy the time better. Really at this stage is where the bigger weight, money, and bulk of clothes/sleep systems varies by personal style. Most hikers overlap quite a bit from summer to early shoulder season regardless of style.

So let's put it together a bit- by warm or cool hikers regarding body temp. (or Chicago vs Texan if you like, lol.)
Warm summer- light bottom, light top. Wind shell.
Cool summer- Light bottom, light top. Rain shell. Wind pants.

To this- a light beanie and light insulation layer.
A choice... It makes good sense to carry an insulation layer. Preferably something you can use later as a cool weather base layer. For warmer folks- a Cap 2 zip-neck is a good choice. Though a Cap 4 can serve here as your stopping layer on a damp day and your camp insulation layer.

A typical rig for summer-
Shorts and a Cap 1 or merino 1 tank top.
Rain or wind top, wind pants.
Cap 2 or Cap 4 layer for insulation.
Summer quilt rated at least 50* (synthetic recommended- sized to stack)
Light beanie- which even in summer can serve as your stopping piece to give you a few degrees of warmth on that windy peak or slight chill on a rainy day. Point being- bring the beanie year round- it weighs nothing and does a lot for you.

Of note- A Neo-Air or z-rest both do the job for a pad. Both together do the job for the winter. Consider this when selecting your pad, as skimping on a pad defeats the point of the other gear and there really is no such thing as "too hot" of a pad in summer. (basically skip anything with less than R3 insulation or plan to buy twice.)

Piling all your clothes on and your 50* quilt will get a warm body to 40* or a cool body to 50*.
So with just a few basic pieces and a light quilt you can cover yourself from 40's to 90's.

With that worked out- now you can build your shoulder season gear easier.
Really little has to change. Take about 20* off the system above and it makes better sense.
Moving- all your summer gear above- while hiking- will get you near the 30's. Even if we aren't cold as a whole, cold parts and pieces will bug you... so if you haven't already added wind pants to your kit, now is the time. Same goes with light gloves, a second beanie, and perhaps a buff, scarf, or other piece to cover nose or face on a windy day or at night. These items though can all be used while in motion as well to stretch the usefulness of your hiking clothes.

Stopping- time to add your stop piece and/or change your baselayer.
Cold folks- Dropping your cap1 or merino 1 layer to sleeping gear, you may want to hike in your cap 2 or cap 4 top if you are a chilly person. You'll want to add in that puffy layer at this point.
Warm folks- Cap 4 or R1 level of insulation piece becomes your stop piece.

Camp- You swap from 50* quilt to 20-30* quilt or mummy bag depending on your preference.
If you plan on frequent camp time.. add camp clothes. A cap 1 or 2 bottom to supplement your shell pants will give you more mobility.
If you are a cold person- time to "retire" your summer base layer clothing to a dedicated sleep set of clothes.

Piling on (most) of your clothes without compressing insulation- will add 10* or better to your sleep system.
An R3 pad, shoulder quilt, baselayer, puffy, and hats will get you to 20-30* at night.

True winter- early AT.
You could actually now need very little.
A heavy hat or hoodie, real gloves, neoprene face mask and perhaps waterproof socks (or breadbags) may be all you really need.
For campers and folks planning to ease into your hike- add a scrap of foam for a sit pad to insulate your butt while you sit around.
But even then- Pile on your Cap 1, Cap 2, Cap 4/R1 layer and you're probably pretty warm. Slip on that puffy for sitting around camp. Tuck your legs in your bag if you don't have a fire if you're hanging at the shelter BSing.

Instead of a heavy bag- bring your 50* summer quilt and place it over your 20/30* bag to cover you to 0-10*. It makes less and less sense for an AT hiker to invest so heavily in a winter bag if you don't already own one. For the $500 a good zero degree down mummy would cost you could nearly buy every piece of clothing on the list. If you have a basic Neo-air (R3) adding a 1/4-3/8" foam pad will cover you to this range for little more than an extra $40. You need to get your sleeping pad up to R5 minimum.

Suggested list-Warm/Cold
Summer-
Hiking shirt- doesn't really matter.
Hiking bottom- doesn't really matter.
Wind shell- I like the Houdini
Rain shell- not for summer IMO
Wind Pant- handy if buggy or frequently in camp.
Dress shirt- sun/bug shirt- handy if buggy or very sunny http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-long-sleeved-sol-patrol-ii-shirt?p=54259-0
Insulation- Cap 2 or Cap 4 zip-neck.
40-50* synthetic quilt
Beanie, wind mitts, buff, bandana

Shoulder- add
Long underwear bottom to wind pant for cold folks, or add wind pant for warm.
Swap out summer quilt for shoulder season sleep gear.
Add your puffy if you like.
Add a medium weight hat and gloves.
Add camp/comfort clothes if you want them.
A dress shirt is nice for camp too- it also protects your other layers around a fire from popping sparks or gathering wood.
Swap/upgrade hiking top to Cap 2 zipneck... keep sleep clothes in your pack if you want.

Winter- add
summer plus shoulder.
Better hats, gloves, socks, and face protection.

The exact item doesn't matter. I think Patagonia is the best. Period. There are plenty of bests out there though despite my preferences. Use the Patagonia pieces as a benchmark/example and go from there. It's not hard to find very similar or equal pieces even at Wally world.

If money is tight- don't go for the big bang puffy or other sexy purchase.
99% of your time will be spent in your base layer/hiking clothes.
Spend money there first. This includes socks and shoes.
Next comes your pad(s), and on your sleeping quilt/bag.

Insulation, puffy's, fleeces, hats, gloves, etc can be had from anyone at any budget really. yar you look ultra Quewl sitting around camp in your patagucci puffy- but that $200+ is way better spent on your daily hiking clothing if money is tight.

Packs, shelters, stoves, and other crap is fun and sexy to buy.
But as far as the nuts and bolts everyday comfort of your hike.
Sock and shoes, clothes, and sleep will make or break you way before a tent 4 oz too heavy or a Cuben Pack.

Honestly- if your feet are good, your clothes are comfy, and your sleep is deep- the rest doesn't matter much at all.

The goal isn't to drop your budget on the month or so of true cold.
Your goal should be to build a versatile kit from the summer up, understand how it works, and then swap things in and out as you move down the trail. Besides the fact that you will have a nice variety of pieces, if you make a mistake, replacement is not so dramatic to your budget or your overall kit.

Many hikers also find several light layers warmer than piling on one bulky piece. And you can strip off a layer, but you can't strip off 1/3 of a puffy.

Hoods/Hats- personally- no hoodies except winter. As mentioned- you can change hats, wear them on their own, wash them in a stream, etc. When that thing is slapped on your jacket... not so much. That said, colder bodied folks may greatly enjoy the mental snuggle of a hooded puffy.

And an additional tip... consider where each piece will exist in your system. A cap 2 or cap 4 may make sense as a tight fitting piece for winter- but then it will be hard to deal with over other layers as the seasons change. So size up one size in things you plan to layer later, especially in pieces that will be a stopping piece... if it gets to be a PIA to use it... you won't and it will be a busted purchase simple because of sizing.

[colorado_rob]

I am going to try the merino wool, but I am leaning towards Cap. Its going to take some experimenting to determine.
.I wear both a lot, kinda interchangeably with no real rhyme or reason. I think the main benefit of merino wool is that it tends to be a tad less stinky after many days on the trail. For a lot of hikers, this is no a deal at all. I also think Merino tends to regulate heat slightly better, but this is probably just my imagination. Merino (or smart wool) tends to be more expensive, but you can find great sales around the various web sites.

Really, either works great.

[Just Bill]

In high summer (80*+) Capeline does better than Merino.
After that it's not much different functionally.
Merino is not as durable, but stinks less and some prefer the feel of it. A good season in a merino 1 weight is about right.

Capeline doesn't absorb moisture, some fabrics do "wick" through weaving- but you need to be at Cap 2 or higher weights to notice.
Merino fibers actually wick by drawing moisture to it's core, then releasing it as it dries. This can give a better feel when damp, especially in 40-60* temps. But this is the reason for slightly slower dry times. On the other hand there is a bit of a microclimate/humidity involved as a result that describes why Rob and others report that Merino has a "warm when cold, cool when hot" feel. It is real, and I do like merino better for this reason in these temps. Come summer, a merino 1 top can be relegated to a sleep layer and replaced with something else to hike in.

Merino is a natural fiber, Capeline is a plastic (although it is highly recyclable) if that factors into your debate.

[JaketheFake]

Bill thank you for you input. That response may break a record, but it is all good information. I will read it several times again. Funny, you mention how people approach the hike from the beginning. Makes sense right? What I am going to wear while hiking in NJ and NY is irrelevant if I bail off in TN because I got too cold.

I am going to try several of your suggestions and do the obvious thing...wait for a good cold night here in Texas and get out and hike/camp.

[Just Bill]

Fail to plan, plan to fail, lol.

With your background I'm sure you understand this-

Those of us doing this awhile started young or easy... Car camping in summer is pretty flexible. Then you build up your summer stuff and begin to extend your seasons from there.

It seems weird to me to look at a long hike any other way really. Assuming all goes well, 40% of your hike will be summer, 40% will be shoulder seasons, 10% will be cold... The other 10% is really only there because folks start early in the spring and travel is slower as a result.

Point being- Select the gear you will use 80% of the time, and build on that for that odd bit in the beginning and end.
Yar folks get off because it's cold (or zero for days burning money), but just as often folks get off because they blew their wad on the gearing up for the first little bit.
More often folks get off because it's not what they expected, and it's hard, and it's wet, the icy trail is dangerous, and it's cold, and they are hungry, and on... early spring ain't really a nice time to suddenly take up the hiking life to be perfectly frank. You do have a love and experience in the woods though, so other than the switch over to backpacking itself... the lifestyle change and expectations won't be too shocking for you.

You personally- money may not be as big a deal.
Simple solution for that then is to invest in a decent zero degree mummy bag to start the trail. You could probably resell after the hike as a texan with no other need for it. Same with a good mid-weight down jacket.

Clothing systems are a bit like picking up a Remington 870...
Yar there are hundreds of guns better for specific stuff, and you may want them for a specific thing if you can afford them all or it's hyper critical to your success.
But start with something solid that covers 80% of your needs, and a few spare parts to swap in or out will get you by for the bulk of it. You may miss a shot (have an odd cold night in the case of clothes) but the bulk of the time you'll get the job done with the least weight, money, and parts/pieces to fool with.

A thru is a six month trip in dozens of different climates and forest types... think generally and you'll be happier.

[egilbe]

Yesterday I asked a simple questions regarding a liner and it lead to a real discovery. I am ditching my sleeping bag and my liner for a 20* EE Quilt and by doing so will save over a pound! As of now I plan to sleep in REI silk base layer (8 ounces total) so the net weight savings is reduced, but with the base layers I am a little more versatile.

With that problem solved I still feel like I am a little light in terms of cold evenings. Here is what I am planning on carrying and some background....
1. Starting April 6
2. I live in Houston, by April the cold is pretty much well gone. I won't be accustomed to below 40 by then.
3. I am an outdoorsman and I understand layering and being out in the cold, but I don't like being cold. The reason why I am putting way too much thought into this.

As of today I am planning to carry the following cold weather items:
1. Beanie
2. Light gloves
3. Patagonia Puff Hoodie
4. LL Bean Micro-Fleece Pullover
5. REI Poly LS Tshirt
6. Kuhl Liberator Convertible Pants
7. REI Silk Base Layers (see above for sleeping)
8. Marmot Rain Pants and Jacket
9. Balaclava

This just seems light to me and what I keep going back to are additional (heavier) base layers. Assume I use the silk base layers for sleeping does it make sense to also carry say a Cap 2 or Cap 3 top and bottom or possibly a merino wool top and bottom?

I am not worried about the daytime hiking. Experience suggests it can be pretty cold while active and one stays warm. Its the mornings and evenings that I want to make less miserable. Your thoughts are appreciated.

That looks good to me. I think Bill said the same thing in more than a thousand words, but he tends to lie a lot.

[gbolt]

Not to pick a fight with Colorado Rob :-? but I disagree. I say hang onto the Balaclava. I hike in a beanie and try not to sweat it out or dampen it. However, it does happen from lack of focus. I alway's want a dry layer in camp and that includes head covering. Matter of fact for winter, I add a BlackRock Down Cap as a 3rd head covering. I would agree with Rob if I was using a mummy sleeping bag. But with a quilt, your head covering needs to be added to sleeping bag/quilt weight. In other words, it is as much a part of your sleep system as it is your clothing system. Just my two cents. Yet remember, as you alluded to; you can alway's ship home anything that ends up not being used after the 1st 3 day's to 3 weeks.

[colorado_rob]

Not to pick a fight with Colorado Rob :-? but I disagree. I say hang onto the Balaclava. ... you can alway's ship home anything that ends up not being used after the 1st 3 day's to 3 weeks.No fight required... good point about the balaclava with the sleeping system. I used a regular mummy bag w/ hood.

[JaketheFake]

Bill, ya got me at Remington 870! Something I am keenly familiar with. But not all Remington 870's are built alike and some are much more prettier than others, but all Remington 870's get the job done.

To your point, I am not stepping off the couch and onto the AT, so the "shock" of it all will not be as severe say someone who just got a wild-hair and has not done the time in the woods. That being said, I have experienced cold and misery and my goal is to circumvent that. I damn sure don't want to burn a bunch of cash sitting it a hotel waiting out the last of the shoulder weather (hence the slightly later start date than what appears to be the norm). Think about that one....you can't use those two nights you spent in a hotel in Wherever, TN at your deer camp next fall or on your next long distance hike. There ain't no equity in a hotel room. So a little extra cash up front on the right gear actually pays for itself in the end, yes?

Your input is valued.

[JaketheFake]

Not to pick a fight with Colorado Rob :-? but I disagree. I say hang onto the Balaclava. I hike in a beanie and try not to sweat it out or dampen it. However, it does happen from lack of focus. I alway's want a dry layer in camp and that includes head covering. Matter of fact for winter, I add a BlackRock Down Cap as a 3rd head covering. I would agree with Rob if I was using a mummy sleeping bag. But with a quilt, your head covering needs to be added to sleeping bag/quilt weight. In other words, it is as much a part of your sleep system as it is your clothing system. Just my two cents. Yet remember, as you alluded to; you can alway's ship home anything that ends up not being used after the 1st 3 day's to 3 weeks.

Again, I agree. Here in East Texas when we get cold it often comes in the form of cold and wet and the first item to reach for when that happens is something on your head. I bet a cold January day here can be compared to a cold April day in the mountains. The balaclava also intrigues me for its versatility both as a head cover and as a neck gaitor. Will you find it my my pack in July?....NO. However, holding onto a beanie makes sense (as Bill suggested), but the balaclava gets shipped home.

[saltysack]

While a buff isn't as warm as a balaclava it serves me well layering under a Beenie.


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[Migrating Bird]

Hello JTF, best of luck on your hike. I feel exactly like you regarding staying warm. Staying warm while hiking is usually not the issue, it is when stopping for lunch, setting up camp, cooking and insuring I get a warm and restful nights sleep. I keep my sleep system separate from my hiking gear. I bring 3 pairs of socks in the shoulder seasons, 2 for hiking and one only for sleeping. This helps keep my feet and quilt cleaner. Should the need arise, I can use my sleep wear to get out of a bad situation. I also use a balaclava with my quilt(s), I can always take it off. I also like my OR beanie, light and keeps my head warm while hiking and it does get wet from sweat or rain but is still warm. I have not had good luck with Marmot's Precip's while others swear by them. I have 2 Golite gortex rain jackets at 12 & 7 oz respectively and they are great. I also use a Packa, http://www.thepacka.com/ The packa serves many purposes, pack cover, wind/rain jacket, clean place to put gear when packing up, top cover or undercover when sleeping. Just my 2cents.

[Just Bill]

Bill, ya got me at Remington 870! Something I am keenly familiar with. But not all Remington 870's are built alike and some are much more prettier than others, but all Remington 870's get the job done.

To your point, I am not stepping off the couch and onto the AT, so the "shock" of it all will not be as severe say someone who just got a wild-hair and has not done the time in the woods. That being said, I have experienced cold and misery and my goal is to circumvent that. I damn sure don't want to burn a bunch of cash sitting it a hotel waiting out the last of the shoulder weather (hence the slightly later start date than what appears to be the norm). Think about that one....you can't use those two nights you spent in a hotel in Wherever, TN at your deer camp next fall or on your next long distance hike. There ain't no equity in a hotel room. So a little extra cash up front on the right gear actually pays for itself in the end, yes?

Your input is valued.

Both fair points, I think you'll find that what's needed for a long day in a tree stand or blind is far different from the few hours at the beginning and end of the day.
Sitting idle in dead cold for a day or two really saps you and creeps in your bones. Other than a storm forcing you hole up in camp for a day or so, you won't likely face that problem. And since you don't need to concern yourself with your scent- you can prepare hot drinks and meals to eat if you do get stuck.

The hard thing to adjust to is understanding staying warm while backpacking. The high activity and wets you from inside and out. Trusted WPB gear that holds up while sitting in the rain fails for no reason when moving and hauling a pack. Having a good understanding of those parts takes some adjusting.

To your point on the gear vs hotel night investment. I agree 100%. The typical response is to reach for the "big guns"- a good puffy and a sleeping bag 10-20* lower than needed. They work well. Buy a 10* quilt from EE, you're talking ounces vs a 20* make sure you have a hoodlum to go with it, and pick up this http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-nano-air-hoody?p=84260-0
That hoody will get you out of a lot of trouble.

Sticking with hunting- I could tell you which gun to buy and which bullet to put in it- you might even hit something... but you don't know how to shoot.
That's the reason for the long replies on my end in general. With just a little knowledge and effort it isn't hard help you become a good shot before you head out.

But nothing wrong with picking up a shotgun to get you going. Your clothing looks pretty solid.
A Nano Air covers a very large margin of error, it will be hard to miss- and a good value vs. hotel time.
An Enlightened Quilt is pretty versatile, being new to them- there is a small learning curve to keep them in place and draft free.

Point being-
I'd say a 20* Convert would let you zip it up and stay warmer.
If you want a Prodigy, bump it up to 10* for the two or three ounce difference to account for the drafts you'll run into while you sort it out.
They weigh the same really... full zip is safer- part zip is lighter but harder to use.

[JaketheFake]

Bill, good insights on the EE... I have not pulled the trigger yet so I'm still researching that entire concept. But you hit the nail square on the head .... My concern of cold weather might have to do with that damn tree stand and how one gets into it 30 minutes before first light and by the time the dawn cracks on her horizon your perspiration from the walk-in turns into cold no matter what you're wearing. And then there's that weird. About an hour into daylight were just seems to get cold no matter how warm it's outside!!! Anyone who has sat in a deerstand knows that period!!!! It all comes down to the fact that you're not moving and man does it zap your energy because your body is doing everything he can do to keep you warm.

[JaketheFake]

Hello JTF, best of luck on your hike. I feel exactly like you regarding staying warm. Staying warm while hiking is usually not the issue, it is when stopping for lunch, setting up camp, cooking and insuring I get a warm and restful nights sleep. I keep my sleep system separate from my hiking gear. I bring 3 pairs of socks in the shoulder seasons, 2 for hiking and one only for sleeping. This helps keep my feet and quilt cleaner. Should the need arise, I can use my sleep wear to get out of a bad situation. I also use a balaclava with my quilt(s), I can always take it off. I also like my OR beanie, light and keeps my head warm while hiking and it does get wet from sweat or rain but is still warm. I have not had good luck with Marmot's Precip's while others swear by them. I have 2 Golite gortex rain jackets at 12 & 7 oz respectively and they are great. I also use a Packa, http://www.thepacka.com/ The packa serves many purposes, pack cover, wind/rain jacket, clean place to put gear when packing up, top cover or undercover when sleeping. Just my 2cents.

Funny as much as I read about the Percip I just assumed they were lightweight. It's amazing once you put the stuff on the scale how quickly the ounces add up. They do seem to fit me pretty damn good so for right now I'm holding what I have.

[Just Bill]

Bill, good insights on the EE... I have not pulled the trigger yet so I'm still researching that entire concept. But you hit the nail square on the head .... My concern of cold weather might have to do with that damn tree stand and how one gets into it 30 minutes before first light and by the time the dawn cracks on her horizon your perspiration from the walk-in turns into cold no matter what you're wearing. And then there's that weird. About an hour into daylight were just seems to get cold no matter how warm it's outside!!! Anyone who has sat in a deerstand knows that period!!!! It all comes down to the fact that you're not moving and man does it zap your energy because your body is doing everything he can do to keep you warm.

Two neat things-
Hunting has helped you identify the biggest problem with clothing- too hot is too cold- goldilocks is your friend to avoid sweat.
Backpackers have generally solved this problem. Though all the secrets are in the base and midlayers- not the big guns :)

By the time you're done hiking, you might even enjoy hunting, lol.

[JaketheFake]

Two neat things-
Hunting has helped you identify the biggest problem with clothing- too hot is too cold- goldilocks is your friend to avoid sweat.
Backpackers have generally solved this problem. Though all the secrets are in the base and midlayers- not the big guns :)

By the time you're done hiking, you might even enjoy hunting, lol.

if only deer didn't start moving until 9 am I would really enjoy it. I am probabally more prepared than I think... I have perfected the art of layers when it comes to hunting. Although the the silk weight bases are new to me. We have not had much of a winter here, but as already discussed... A deer stand can get cold in mild temps... My poly bases and fleece have served me well this season.

[Just Bill]

Generally-
Hikers walk cold and camp (sleep) warm.
Next time out- try walking to the stand and getting set up without your coveralls... just the bare minimum to keep your teeth from chattering.
When it's time to camp (sit in the stand) that's when the heavy stuff comes out.

Hunters dress for the stand, forgetting they have to walk there first ;)

[JaketheFake]

Generally-
Hikers walk cold and camp (sleep) warm.
Next time out- try walking to the stand and getting set up without your coveralls... just the bare minimum to keep your teeth from chattering.
When it's time to camp (sit in the stand) that's when the heavy stuff comes out.

Hunters dress for the stand, forgetting they have to walk there first ;)

And those of us hunt from a climber stand complete an extra set of calisthenics before settling in!!!! That's that tough part because with your safety harness you gotta kinda have everything on (to a point) before make the 20 to 25 foot ascent. I typically carry my "outer layer" in route to stand to prevent the sweat.

[Just Bill]

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115410-Quilt-stacking-from-Enlightened-Equipment-article-and-talks
Check this out in regards to your quilt research... this trick would free up the money for the Nano-Air (though the Nano-Puff hoody is nearly as good for a bit less too).

[JaketheFake]

Will do thanks. Funny, after all these posts yesterday, I grabbed my pack and wife and we went to the park at 10 pm and walked 3 miles. 10 pm on December 11th and it was 73 degrees and I was sweating wearing shorts and a long sleeved poly tshirt!

[CarlZ993]

That set up looks like it would do the trick. Early on the hike, there are several outfitters along the way that you can supplement extra stuff if you find you need it. They'll gladly sell them to you. :)

One item not on your list that I found helpful was some very lightweight rain mitts. I had a cold rain day (4/4) where the rain froze to the vegetation. If I didn't have the rain mitts on, my liner gloves would have been soaked & I'd be miserable to no end.

As one Texan to another, it does get cold in the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Good luck on your hike.

[RockDoc]

I've done the hike, starting April 4th. All I have to say is hold on to the warm clothes until Hot Springs.

[squeezebox]

Don't forget socks and underwear.

[swjohnsey]

I've done the hike, starting April 4th. All I have to say is hold on to the warm clothes until Hot Springs.

Or beyond Mt. Rogers.

[JaketheFake]

That set up looks like it would do the trick. Early on the hike, there are several outfitters along the way that you can supplement extra stuff if you find you need it. They'll gladly sell them to you. :)

One item not on your list that I found helpful was some very lightweight rain mitts. I had a cold rain day (4/4) where the rain froze to the vegetation. If I didn't have the rain mitts on, my liner gloves would have been soaked & I'd be miserable to no end.

As one Texan to another, it does get cold in the Southern Appalachian Mountains. Good luck on your hike.

is there any particular brand of rain mitts Tex?

[JaketheFake]

Don't forget socks and underwear.

oh man, thanks for your input... Think I should pack a sweater too :)

[Dogwood]

Don't prioritize saving wt out of context of functionality, kit integration(look at the larger picture too), your skill set, gear volume, price, varying weather, etc. If you don't do this you put yourself in jeopardy of being "stupid light" if realized only once when on trail in a tight situation it can be quite problematic.

April is a rather fickle weather month in the southern Appalachian Mountains. Nothing is settled yet in regards to weather. You COULD experience ranges of weather from a spring snow/ice storm, sleet, to days of rain, sometimes COLD rain slushy sloppy trail, to sunny clear highs in the mid to upper 70's*. Because of that, it being your first LD AT hike, and some other aspects I will not get into you are absolutely approaching your apparel system prioritizing very good versatility correctly after some good thought about your individual situation correctly.

Specifics, with your givens, your wt saving goals, kit list, and after you adequately shared some details:
I think Colorado Rob was right. I agree with him but possibly based on different considerations. Consider ditching the balaclava. Although, GBolt shared valuable insight about your proposed sleep system you would be wise to consider, he failed to observe, even without the balaclava, you still have three(3) hats/hoods at your disposal. On the move, meandering around in camp, or when in your sleep system you can put on your beanie and either or both the Patagonia Nano Puff w/ warmish hood and the Marmot Rain Jacket w/ hood. Do yourself a wt saving and apparel versatility adding favor... widen your definition of "rain jacket" to include using it not just when it's raining. It can be used to add/trap warmth, to block wind, and to layer with possibly when hiking, when at rest, when meandering around camp, and to supplement your sleep system. Likewise, think that way about your "rain pants." It could be, for example, that wearing a dry "rain jacket" partially unzipped and "rain pants" on drafty cooler/cold nights in a quilt can function the same as a lower temp rated quilt reducing the redundancy in unnecessary volume and wt that entails. Don't forget mixing it up under variable weather sheltering(tent, trap, AT lean-to, etc) OR NO SHELTERING scenarios can have profound affects on reducing/eliminating/increasing drafts drafts, increasing/decreasing sleep system warmth, etc. YES, in WT saving techniques your choice of many things like choice of shelter and choice of a campsite IS PART OF YOUR "sleep system."

Further, learn to make use of the full range of features and options you have with your gear. For example, if you tend to get cold numb hands and the light gloves in your kit aren't cutting it for warmth and wind/rain/snow protection you have pockets in your Kuhl convertible pants, Patagonia Nano Puff Hoody, and likely your Marmot "rain jacket." Plus you might employ something like a second set of socks for hand warmth. Another example is in times of greater cold when you might assume you went too light on your apparel system's warmth and you NEED added warmth a quilt or sleeping bag MIGHT function to serve the need either by getting into it or draping it over your shoulders, perhaps under a loose fitting hardshell, like your Marmot "rain jacket."

As you acquire a LD hiking style you might note there are those who largely hike, that is they are regularly on the move, verses those who spend more time taking hiking breaks and camping. Your kit, and especially your apparel, can reflect those different hiking styles. If you anticipate being more of a camper perhaps dedicated in camp or dedicated separate sleep wear, even though adding wt and volume but perhaps some desired comfort, it would be to your liking. If you're like those who are more of a hiker, having the hiking philosophy that you are in your shelter and sleep system in short order in camp rather than tending to meander around in camp, you're sleep system IS your camp clothing for warmth and protection. Considering these aspects can save volume and wt.

You might consider you'll get about equal volume and perhaps about the same wt but have greater versatility by opting for a light wt tee, merino or a merino synthetic blend for the earlier cooler possibly wetter spring stages of your journey combined with a light-med wt LS top, preferably with a deep chest zip, could be merino, synthetic, or blend, rather than the fleece. Float the Patagonia Nano Puff and Marmot "rain jacket" into the mix either individually or in unison with either the tee individually or in unison with the LS deep chest zip and you have more torso apparel versatility scenarios.

When it comes to warmth, apparel versatility, and appropriate thermoregulation, both when on the move and in camp/stopped but with an overall hiking style where the "hiker" is more of a hiker/mover and strongly consider saving wt, as you are aware you might want, and in awareness of the weather's variability for the beginning stage of your journey, some including myself who are more cold sensitive(I lived/live in warm southern and Pacific climates and have had frost nip several times experiencing it as a hunter in the Northeast in the distant past), choose to focus mainly on core and extremity warmth. That is, we tend to focus on torso area warmth from the shoulders down to the waist for vital organ areas and warmth of hands, feet, and top of the head and sometimes face. These are high heat loss areas CONVERSELY ALSO HIGH VENTILATION AREAS. This is critical IMO to understanding thermoregualtion and trail comfort which snowballs into saving wt. Make note that what is on the feet is a system in itself but is also part of the apparel system(it is also apparel) and factors into warmth and thermoregulation AND HENCE THE POSSIBLE WT SAVING EQUATION! This is often unaccounted for by many typical wt saving devotees.

One of the perhaps easiest wt saving categories/techniques that is sometimes overlooked by newly aspiring Long Distance(LD) hikers(Thru-hikers if you will) with a wt saving goal, in their rush to buy themselves this goal with gear purchases(it's sexy and compelling I know), is to give greater consideration to their skill set. One of the AWESOME EASIEST LEAST EXPENSIVE but demanding of a concerted intelligent effort skill to have is learning to dial in consumables volume and wt. Consider, by adding some individually appropriate savvy trail logistical skill in saving consumable water wt this adjustment alone of knowing when to carry only one(1) less unnecessary Liter of water(about 34 fl ozs) results in a savings of 2.2 lbs of wt. Likewise, in a six(6) day food resupply appropriately knowing when to reduce food wt from say 2.5 lbs per day to say 2 lbs per day results in a wt loss of three(3) lbs. I know you only mentioned you were seeking a 10 lb Base Wt but it's fair to observe it is your ultimate goal to account for all carried wt including consumables.

Hopefully, that's some food for thought. :D

[Traillium]

Whee — so much subtlety & interwoven complexity!
As a beginning hiker (though experienced outdoorsman), I'm learning so much! And ground-truthing it along the way. I like your point about factoring extremities into heat control.


Bruce Traillium

[colorado_rob]

I've done the hike, starting April 4th. All I have to say is hold on to the warm clothes until Hot Springs.Maybe even just past Grayson Highlands? I dumped my warm stuff in Damascus, a few days later might have been better. I think my coldest night on the trail was in Grayson highlands, that shelter just before the northern boundary I forget its name (not Thomas Knob). May 9th. Frost on my tent the next morning.

disclaimer: we (my wife was with me for this section) had essentially perfect weather going through the smokies, a place notorious for quite imperfect weather, and a place where that "controversial" balaclava thing might just come in handy.....

[rickb]

Don't forget socks and underwear.


oh man, thanks for your input... Think I should pack a sweater too :)

In Maine a second pair of socks and underwear merits a special government warning. :)

32949

[takethisbread]

I started in April and sent warm clothes home in mid May and kept only bag liner, as it had been hot. Followed by many nights around freezing till I got to Daleville. Don't jump the gun[emoji379]


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[saltysack]

is there any particular brand of rain mitts Tex?

Bread bags work good over liner gloves...also my night time p shoes over socks


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[egilbe]

In Maine a second pair of socks and underwear merits a special government warning. :)

32949

Its not usually 55* in the middle of December :D

I'm assuming the underwear comment was in regards to long underwear, or maybe someone was well trained by their mother? In case of an accident, make sure you are wearing clean undies. And this, on a forum where the members routinely wear the same pair for a week, or go commando, while hiking

[squeezebox]

In Maine a second pair of socks and underwear merits a special government warning. :)

32949

See! I told you so!!

[JaketheFake]

Dogwood, thank you for your post. Good stuff. I am going to read through it a few more times as there are a lot of points in there and I want to catch them all. One point that I picked up but already considered was the "rain gear" serving multiple purposes. I did overlook the number of head covers (hoods) I had on the list.

[JaketheFake]

See! I told you so!!

Hey, if it's the State of Maine sayin so.....

Squeezebox, agree. I using 2 underwear, 2 silk six liners, 2 wool hiking six and one camp sox (emergency sox).

[Just Bill]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=512&v=_J4D3AHzlxQ

Probably shoulda remembered this earlier- Still one of the best videos on the subject.

[Dogwood]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=512&v=_J4D3AHzlxQ

Probably shoulda remembered this earlier- Still one of the best videos on the subject.

+100. Good timely addition to the thread JB. EVERYTHING Mike Clelland did in that vid is what I also do on trail. Highly rec Mike's book ULTRALIGHT BACKPACKIN' TIPS.

[JaketheFake]

This was a good video. I totally get what he was saying about layers. Totally, I have been dressing this way in a non-hiking way and I am also understanding what layers should be part of my kit with all of your help. I am stepping out now to do a stroll in the rain to test some stuff.

[Dogwood]

Notice all the torso pieces that Mike showed in the vid. I count five(5) torso pieces - 1) a light wt next to skin synthetic Patagonia tee, which as he said could be a merino or merino blend piece perhaps more functional and higher performing in colder perhaps wetter conditions 2) a light-mid wt. hoody, which IMO would have greater versatility with a deep chest zip, and could function as a next to skin piece. As stated earlier this piece could be substituted with a light-mid wt LS shirt that loses the hood. Although, some such LS shirts also feature an integrated hood such as an Ibex merino Hooded Indie top w/ a deep chest zip 3) a wind shirt/Anorak, which again IMO would have greater versatility with a deep(er) chest zip, such as what could be attained with something like a Montbell Tachyon Anorak while possibly adding that chest zip feature WHILE ALSO perhaps be of a reduced wt than what he's using 4) his main insulating piece, a Montbell down jacket(not sure of the model). NOTE: I think this vid was shot before some newer perhaps more advanced UL high performing versatile comparably featured synthetic insulating jackets were available, which might be better considered for variable wetter east coast spring weather. Also note, Mike talked about being aware of trail conditions commensurate with his choice wt of his main insulating piece. 5) His shell

NOTE, more layers in his layered apparel system but wisely avoiding bulk and wt while considering the size of his pieces in relation to how he layers. Mike demonstrates a very versatile layering system without a high degree of wt or unnecessary bulk. It's easy to see Mike seamlessly removing pieces of his apparel kit as weather warms up on a traditional AT NOBO and adding perhaps a tee into the apparel equation.

The first time I saw this vid Mike took me by surprise as he dropped his pants to reveal hiking shorts underneath.

[Dogwood]

"I am stepping out now to do a stroll in the rain to test some stuff."

Ahh, a wise move testing and familiarizing yourself with your kit PRE HIKE.

[Dogwood]

I was perhaps ambiguous and rambling along early in the morn when I wrote this so let me correct it as I think it can likely pertain to your situation using a quilt.

"Don't forget mixing it up under variable weather sheltering(tent, trap, AT lean-to, etc) OR NO SHELTERING scenarios can have profound affects on reducing/eliminating/increasing drafts drafts, increasing/decreasing sleep system warmth, etc."

Rephrased: Don't forget mixing up set-ups reflecting it in your kit and in how you shelter or sleep as it can have profound effects on reducing/eliminating/increasing drafts, increasing/decreasing sleep system warmth, etc." Don't forget that on fair weather nights you don't have to sleep in a AT lean-to or in a tent. This can save time not having to set up/tear down a more complicated tent sheltering scenario.