View Full Version : Latest data on Lithium batteries?
Hi;
I am trying to compare AA alkaline - Duracell copper top - batteries to Energizer "Ultimate Lithium" AA batteries for use in my Black Diamond Icon LED headlamp. I plan to do some cold weather hiking/backpacking, and know that lithium is better in this respect. What I am trying to find out is whether the higher cost of the lithium battery will pay off in the end.
Energizer claims that their Ultimate Lithium AA battery will last up to 9x longer in digital cameras than their alkaline "Max" battery. That's great, but I cannot compare my headlamp to a digital camera. I would expect that the current drain for the headlamp is far greater than the digital camera, and from what I have seen on the graphs of lithium (non-rechargeable) vs alkaline, the advantage drops off as current drain rises. I read somewhere that one can expect about 1.5x alkaline for lithium used in an LED headlamp.
Perhaps though, the biggest advantage is weight. For a 5-day/night trek, the weight adds up, and even the relatively small (1.5x) hours of life advantage could prove to be the deciding factor if it's a question of needing to carry spares or not. Of course, if one expects to reach a decent grocery or quik-mart at some point, batteries can be replaced.
So, my real question is whether or not the advantage of lithium over alkaline is worth the extra cost of lithium.
Note: The Energizer Ultimate Lithium 4-pak of AA cost about $8 on Amazon, while I can buy a 20-pak of Duracell AA copper top for $14.79 at BJ's.
Arden
colorado_rob
12-13-2015, 13:34
Yeah, my experience is more like 2X better life in cold weather use in my headlamp, but in extreme cold, sometimes alkalines don't work well at all, depending on the device, like a GPS.
Every once in a while, "King Soopers", which is Colorado's version of Krogers (do you have Krogers or a variation in NJ?), has those Ultimate Lithiums on sale for 5 bucks for 4 AA's, and when that happens, I buy a couple packs. So at $1.25 each, vs. about 30 cents for regular alkaline AA's (at Costco), I spring for the cost, but only for winter use where the benefits are double, better life and less weight. for summer use, the benefits aren't worth it because Alkalines work fine in the warmer weather and the ounce or two of weight savings aren't worth the extra cost. One exception is on my AT hike, I carried those ultimate lithiums because weight was more important to me on that long, long hike. I think maybe I used 2 or 3 sets on the entire AT (really don't need a headlamp often).
Just my 2 cents.
Alkaline batteries freeze in cold weather. They dont work. And they are heavier. For winter use, lithium only. For Summer, alkaline are fine.
garlic08
12-13-2015, 13:53
No information, just a story. A hiking partner had been having problems with his camera and decided to try lithium batteries. We were approaching a relatively crowded summit and he was getting his camera out. I asked him how the camera was working and he replied in a loud voice, "Everything's better since I started using lithium." The crowd dispersed!
swjohnsey
12-13-2015, 14:16
I have found the Energizer Lithium batteries much, much cheaper online.
MuddyWaters
12-13-2015, 14:49
typically an AA alkaline is 2000 mah, an AA energizer ultimate lithium is 3000 mah. 50% more energy stored, but more like 2x the price.
high demand uses affect useable capacity because voltage drops under load, and temperature. Its also lighter. Basically you use Li for other reasons than capacity/cost. . On a pure energy/cost basis its not effective.
In other words, your headlamp would have to not have~ 50% of the alkaline capacity available due to voltage decreasing, for you to come out ahead using Li. Thats highly unlikely for something recommended to run on alkaline.
Odd Man Out
12-13-2015, 15:28
Backpackers are known to spend hundreds of dollars to shave as few oz of weight. If you have the chance to cut weight AND get vastly better performance for just a few dollars, why do you even have to ask?
I can't answer for you what battery is best for you but I can tell you with my high drain constant power devices like a headlamp which I heavily rely on for safety in hiking situations especially if the hike is more remote and as a regular dark hours hiker I want Energizer Lithium AAA or AA batteries. Throw in cold and it's a no brainer for me even with the additional financial expense....it's Energizer Lithium AAA batteries. I favor eating the the extra $$$ cost over greater functional performance in those situations. Plus, I can be an overly anal ULer that knows Energizer Lithium AAA or AA batteries weigh a few less grams each than comparable AAA or AA alkaline batteries; I implore not to go down that road though or you'll soon be weighing things like shoe laces and titanium sporks to see which brands/models weigh less.:rolleyes:
One possible option is to include two lights in your kit. A cheaper micro light powered by say watch(flat disc) type batteries sparingly used in camp when snuggled in and reserve your headlamp for when night hiking and when misty/foggy/rainy, etc.
While the Energizer Lithium AA batteries do cost more than regular AA alkaline batteries you are paying way to high a cost at $2/AA Lithium battery. Perhaps, eat that high cost initially in some test runs with your headlamp but if later deciding you will go with the Energizer AA Lithiums you can buy larger packs in 20, 24, etc size at a cost in the $1.10-1.30 range. And, if you are super tight on do re mi but still HAVE TO HAVE Energizer Lithium AA batteries look for a coupon. I've seen them for Energizer batteries. I've used coupons for E Li batteries to get the cost below $1/AAA battery.
An advantage of unused new Energizer Li batteries verses typical alkaline batteries is a longer shelf life. So, if you do buy larger quantities of the Li batteries for economy of scale cost reduction purposes you might take that into consideration. In this context BE WEARY of alkaline batteries purchased at Dollar stores. In all my trials of purchasing alkaline batteries, even name brands, at supposedly a cost savings at these types of locations battery life and hence performance was HIGHLY variable, NOT acceptable for me in many hiking/outdoor situations.
Before getting too anal about batteries alone as if they operate in a bubble you have to wisely take other factors into context of your question on whether the "cost is worth it." For instance, your choice of headlamp, it's features, your hiking style, how often you intend to resupply, the quality of your resupply locations, and how you use your headlamp can far outweigh nit picking about battery life, cost, other battery characteristics, etc in and of itself. For example, for all you know it may be significantly less costlier in terms of $$$ to use rechargeable batteries bumping ahead a charger on a hike such as a AT thru-hike while using your headlamp/multiple light sources in energy saving ways between those resupplies for fresh batteries. I've also seen Long Distance(LD) hikers on sunny trails efficiently recharge their batteries ON TRAIL through light wt flexible solar powered arrays attached to the top/back of their backpacks using rechargeable batteries. Not yet publicly available to my knowledge, and still in its infancy, is SPRAY ON solar energy gathering technology! IMO, this is the way of the future for cheap less hassle energy source gathering for outdoor activities like hiking in sunny conditions...incorporating solar energy gathering into light wt backpack designs. You heard it here from me! Further, the BD Icon which, if I'm recalling correctly, is a rather bulky heavy headlamp IMHO for LD hiking that puts out major lumens on high power which consequently if you anticipate using it often in that mode is going to consume the 4 AA batteries it takes rather quickly despite a supposed "long battery life." By simply making the adjustment to using it in that mode only when you feel it an absolute must you can offset all/much of this nitpicking about battery life and battery cost comparisons. The BD Icon has two power modes offering two different lumen outputs. Some lighter wt headlamps have a wider range variable lumen output and hence you can adjust not only your light intensity but adjust for a wider range of power drainage.
Enjoy.
No information, just a story. A hiking partner had been having problems with his camera and decided to try lithium batteries. We were approaching a relatively crowded summit and he was getting his camera out. I asked him how the camera was working and he replied in a loud voice, "Everything's better since I started using lithium." The crowd dispersed!
Enjoyed that. he he
At that pt you and your friend should have started twitching and maybe offering, "do you think they know we've escaped yet from the hospital?" Then, pulled out your pocket knives cleaning out under your finger nails while looking up through your eyebrows like Pvt Pyle in Full Metal Jacket. Might be a good way to get that summit pic without the crowds?
garlic08
12-13-2015, 19:04
...while looking up through your eyebrows like Pvt Pyle in Full Metal Jacket....
Born again hard!
dogwood said: "One possible option is to include two lights in your kit. A cheaper micro light powered by say watch(flat disc) type batteries sparingly used in camp when snuggled in and reserve your headlamp for when night hiking and when misty/foggy/rainy, etc."
That's a great idea, but I need to find a micro-light that I can depend on. Too many of the ones I have had on my keychain are unreliable at best. I'll do some searching on Amazon, REI, and elsewhere. When around camp, I normally use the BD Icon on its low/wide setting, but last trek ended after dark, and I needed the bright light.
Yesterday, when I ran 60Km on the OCA trail in NY, I used the light mainly in the flashing mode, while running along the road, or where there are many entry/exits which cross the walkway (I finished up using sidewalks). That said, I try to avoid hiking/running in the dark, but sometimes it's unavoidable.
I'm definitely not an UL hiker. My last two treks, I took my Yaesu FT60r amateur radio HT with an extra NiMh battery pack. The whole kit weighed around 2 lbs! I have decided that on future treks I will not carry the radio. It is really not necessary for safety anymore, as it was before cell phones got so light.
It makes sense to look for a good discount on the Energizer Lithiums, and buy a bunch.
garlic08; loved that story! Could come in handy on Mount Washington NH!
MuddyWaters; Your sig says it all. That was exactly what I thought last Friday night while preparing for my 60Km run on Saturday. Being that the weather has been unseasonably warm here in NY/NJ, I was going to take my larger pack and carry a light jacket, as well as a singlet, plus more food, just in case I became too hot or cold during the run. But when I held the pack and realized how heavy it was - the larger one weighs 1.4 lbs empty, while the small one weighs 0.4 lbs - I decided that I would make do with just one short-sleeved Icebreaker Merino wool shirt, and shorts. I didn't need a lot of food, as I was running in NYC and Westchester, where there are many great delis, pizza shops, even supermarkets to buy food and water. By the time I reached Croton (62Km from my home in NJ) I was spent. If I had carried the larger pack, I don't think I would have made it north of Tarrytown. I was never uncomfortable in that one base layer shirt and the shorts.
But I did carry my BD Icon headlamp in a pouch which I wore on my waist belt, because I knew that I was going to finish after dark.
Arden
colorado_rob
12-13-2015, 21:21
I have found the Energizer Lithium batteries much, much cheaper online.Could you share the site where you found this? I have not found them online for anywhere near the $1.25 at Krogers (when on sale). I see them for about 7 bucks a 4-pack ($1.75 each) all over the place. Thanks in advance.
As far as cold performance, I guess "cold" is relative. I've not had regular Alkalines fail until below about 0-10F or so. And yes, for longer, weight critical hikes, the weight savings of an ounce or two is definitely worth it for an extyra couple/few bucks. I go by the $100/8 ounce rule, so Lithiums easily make that cutoff. For short summer hikes when I don't even notice a pack, why spend any extra cash at all.
One very minor item: I think Lithiums outside of a device (extra batteries) are illegal to carry on airlines.
iAmKrzys
12-13-2015, 22:51
One very minor item: I think Lithiums outside of a device (extra batteries) are illegal to carry on airlines.
Last time I flew I had to keep lithium batteries with me and not in checked-in baggage. I would be surprised if there were completely disallowed, since most phones use lithium batteries.
I usually use rechargeable Eneloop batteries which seem to work well (although I don't get to test them in very cold weather) and I carry Lithiums as a backup for my gps, flashlight & Spot.
FYI just got a Garmin GPSMAP 64S. Put fresh Lithium batteries in it. On and of for maybe 2 hrs. Then turned it on Saturday morning about 6 and it woke us up 3 AM Monday morning signaling that the batteries were low. Not bad I'd say.
I didn't leave it on ourposely.
Offshore
12-14-2015, 08:43
FYI just got a Garmin GPSMAP 64S. Put fresh Lithium batteries in it. On and of for maybe 2 hrs. Then turned it on Saturday morning about 6 and it woke us up 3 AM Monday morning signaling that the batteries were low. Not bad I'd say.
I didn't leave it on ourposely.
I see similar battery life using lithium batteries in my older Garmin GPSmap 60Csx. The only downside is that the device firmware was never updated by Garmin to include a battery calibration for Li batteries, so the only indication that the Li batteries are low is a dead GPS. Not worth replacing the GPS over - I just carry an extra set of batteries since they don't weigh very much. I found that at a typical retail price, its a little cheaper to run Li batteries compared to alkaline based on cost/hr. Add the benefits of lower weight and better cold weather performance, and to me its a no-brainer. (It also helps that I have a friend that was a salesperson for a Li battery manufacturer and I got a lot of them for free.)
colorado_rob
12-14-2015, 09:59
Last time I flew I had to keep lithium batteries with me and not in checked-in baggage. I would be surprised if there were completely disallowed, since most phones use lithium batteries..I'm talking about the extra Lithiums, outside of the devices, not the ones in devices, which are allowed. Upon actually checking, turns out spare Lithums, small ones like we're talking about, are allowed in carryon baggage, but not checked baggage, here's a quote from an FAA site:
"Q2. What kinds of batteries does the FAA allow in checked baggage?
A2. Except for spare (uninstalled) lithium metal and lithium-ion batteries, all the batteries allowed in carry-on baggage are also
allowed in checked baggage. The batteries must be protected from damage and short circuit or installed in a device. Battery-powered
devices—particularly those with moving parts or those that could heat up—must be protected from accidental activation.
Spare lithium metal and lithium ion/polymer batteries are prohibited in checked baggage—this includes external chargers."
Again, zero deal, just carryon your spare AA/AAA's in their original packaging and life is good.
GPS's are where my experience with Lithiums in the winter shine, as already discussed, I'm guessing close to 2X life, but my GPS has a Li battery setting.
Last time I flew I had to keep lithium batteries with me and not in checked-in baggage. I would be surprised if there were completely disallowed, since most phones use lithium batteries.
I usually use rechargeable Eneloop batteries which seem to work well (although I don't get to test them in very cold weather) and I carry Lithiums as a backup for my gps, flashlight & Spot.
I'm talking about the extra Lithiums, outside of the devices, not the ones in devices, which are allowed. Upon actually checking, turns out spare Lithums, small ones like we're talking about, are allowed in carryon baggage, but not checked baggage, here's a quote from an FAA site:
"Q2. What kinds of batteries does the FAA allow in checked baggage?
A2. Except for spare (uninstalled) lithium metal and lithium-ion batteries, all the batteries allowed in carry-on baggage are also
allowed in checked baggage. The batteries must be protected from damage and short circuit or installed in a device. Battery-powered
devices—particularly those with moving parts or those that could heat up—must be protected from accidental activation.
Spare lithium metal and lithium ion/polymer batteries are prohibited in checked baggage—this includes external chargers."
Again, zero deal, just carryon your spare AA/AAA's in their original packaging and life is good.
GPS's are where my experience with Lithiums in the winter shine, as already discussed, I'm guessing close to 2X life, but my GPS has a Li battery setting.
TSA keeps changing the carry on and checked baggage rules
If so concerned about Li batteries on flights the most reliable and sensible thing to do is check out current rules.
http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/06/travel-tips-tuesday-safely-packing.html
FWIW, over the last 10 yrs or so I've flown domestically with MANY different Airlines MANY times in/out of MANY International Airports under the guidance of MANY TSA agents with up to seven maybe 8 Energizer Li AAA batteries TOTAL BOTH installed in hiking headlamps(3 Li AAA's) and a Mp3 player(1 Li AAA) and up to 4 spares in carry on luggage plainly in view of TSA agents and NEVER - NOT ONCE - was questioned. That doesn't include the ADDITIONAL 4 Li batteries installed in my cell phone, pocket digital camera, and ACS watch, ALL in carry ons and/or on my person. That is a grand total of 12, count em 12 Li batteries, of different sizes and types and NEVER had issue.
Your Li battery carry on or in checked bag experiences MAY differ though!:rolleyes:
colorado_rob
12-14-2015, 12:36
That is a grand total of 12, count em 12 Li batteries, of different sizes and types and NEVER had issue.
Your Li battery carry on or in checked bag experiences MAY differ though!:rolleyes:Like I said, zero issue really. Why you always busting my ba%&s these days DW?
Because I'm envious that you live in Co doing all those hikes and summits there in your own backyard. ;) If Mags was around and put up with my ragging I'd be doing it to him too. :D
It's not just about you CR. I'm currently burnt out on the entrapments of "civilization" and seriously in need of satisfy my wandering ways is the real reason. OK, you've made me realize the need for a long walk in the rain today. :)
It's probably not going to get cold enough this "winter" on the east coast, so I won't worry about batteries for now. Maybe if I see the Energizer Ultimate Lithiums on sale I will pick up a 4-pak or two.
Traveler
12-15-2015, 14:02
TSA keeps changing the carry on and checked baggage rules
If so concerned about Li batteries on flights the most reliable and sensible thing to do is check out current rules.
http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/06/travel-tips-tuesday-safely-packing.html
FWIW, over the last 10 yrs or so I've flown domestically with MANY different Airlines MANY times in/out of MANY International Airports under the guidance of MANY TSA agents with up to seven maybe 8 Energizer Li AAA batteries TOTAL BOTH installed in hiking headlamps(3 Li AAA's) and a Mp3 player(1 Li AAA) and up to 4 spares in carry on luggage plainly in view of TSA agents and NEVER - NOT ONCE - was questioned. That doesn't include the ADDITIONAL 4 Li batteries installed in my cell phone, pocket digital camera, and ACS watch, ALL in carry ons and/or on my person. That is a grand total of 12, count em 12 Li batteries, of different sizes and types and NEVER had issue.
Your Li battery carry on or in checked bag experiences MAY differ though!:rolleyes:
There are two problems with TSA published list of what can be carried or packed and what can't. First is interpretation, some TSA stations don't have issue with things like trekking poles, others may if they interpret the end of the pole to be a hazard or a weapon. It's difficult to argue an interpretation issue, even with the TSA list in your hand. The second problem occurs when there is a security threat currently being reacted to or prepared for that are not announced. However, I have not ever had a battery be rejected at TSA or via luggage search, though TSA may have the right of refusal.
A good example are battery operated Hover boards (miniature Segways) which apparently catch fire on a whim, regardless if they are plugged in, being used, or just sitting on the floor waiting for the secret word to set themselves ablaze. As a result, ALL hover boards are banned from US airliners. Good call on that, given the video footage I've seen on them so far.
TSA works hard to have UNIFORM procedures. They make a strong CONCERTED EFFORT to NOT leave rules open for individual interpretation!
Keeping it focused on Li batteries being allowed in carry on and in checked baggage the TSA has made it clear, at least to me or I assume anyone that makes the effort to have read and abide TSA's rules on Li batteries(batteries in general) in the TSA link provided, when the TSA's information is taken ENTIRELY IN CONTEXT OF ALL THEIR Li battery information. This info came DIRECTLY FROM THE TSA website. http://blog.tsa.gov/2013/06/travel-tips-tuesday-safely-packing.html
Batteries Allowed in Carry-on Bags:
Lithium ion batteries (a.k.a.: rechargeable lithium, lithium polymer, LIPO, secondary lithium).
Consumer-sized lithium ion batteries [no more than 8 grams of equivalent lithium content or 100 watt hours (wh) per battery]. This size covers AA, AAA, 9-volt, cell phone, PDA, camera, camcorder, Gameboy, and standard laptop computer batteries.
Up to two larger lithium ion batteries (more than 8 grams, up to 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per battery) in their carry-on. This size covers larger extended-life laptop batteries. Most consumer lithium ion batteries are below this size.
Batteries Allowed in Checked Bags:
Except for spare (uninstalled) lithium batteries, all the batteries allowed in carry-on baggage are also allowed in checked baggage; however, we recommend that you pack them in your carry-on bag whenever possible.
Prohibited Batteries:
Spare lithium batteries (both lithium metal and lithium ion/polymer) are prohibited in checked baggage.
Packing Tips for Batteries:
If you’re traveling with spare batteries in addition to the ones inside your devices, consider placing each battery in its own protective case, plastic bag, or package, or place tape across the battery's contacts to isolate terminals. Isolating terminals prevents hazards due to short-circuiting.
If we look at all that info in its entire context, YES you can carry AA and AAA Li batteries in you carry ons BOTH in your devices AND as spares. Further, with some awarness of what was suggested to consider by the TSA TO AVOID hassles possibly place the spares in a plastic bag or leave in original packaging which is exactly what I do when carrying spare AA and AAA Li batteries. HENCE, I have NEVER had issue with carrying these batteries onto a flight in my carry on(s).
It's my contention that instead of going to social media websites such as WB regarding the opinions of TSA rules would it not BE BETTER TO GO DIRECTLY TO THE TSA to answer what is and is not currently accepted in carry on an checked baggage on a flight? It is my illusion there is MUCH less possibility for ambiguity by making the effort to go directly to TSA sources.
Getting off topic, but AGAIN the TSA provides rather clear information regarding trekking poles being allowed or NOT allowed in carry ons and in checked baggage at a TSA page dedicated solely to Backpackers, Campers, and Fishing people. http://blog.tsa.gov/2014/05/tsa-travel-tips-travel-tips-for.html
"Trekking & Hiking Poles – These can only be packed in checked baggage."
I'm not up to speed on Hover Boards so I have no information regarding them which I would suspect would indeed be a very unlikely occasion that would involve backpackers/hikers. :)
Traveler
12-15-2015, 16:08
Uh huh. Suffice to say, TSA has the last word.
sliverstorm
12-15-2015, 17:02
I just carry NiMH whenever possible. Hate using Alkaline or Lithium batteries (and subsequently tossing them) when a rechargeable would suffice.
Sidenote, it's funny we talk about Alkaline vs. Lithium. Lithium is an alkali metal! So it's like we're comparing Fruit vs. Apples
There are restrictions for shipping lithium batteries via the USPS.
MuddyWaters
12-15-2015, 22:05
Ive never had issue carrying my Li batts on in their retail packaging. Follow TSA rules. Lighter too.
Thats about the only way to get them to the destination.
Due to potential to cause fire if damaged, they can be better monitored and reacted to in the cabin, than in the cargo hold, is why they want them in carryon.
LOL. Good reply AT Traveler.:)
handlebar
12-16-2015, 09:32
There are restrictions for shipping lithium batteries via the USPS. ...because a great deal of the mail especially priority mail is carried on airplanes.