PDA

View Full Version : Will the Bubble Burst?



Traveler
12-18-2015, 07:57
This from Appalachian Trail News and directed towards the bubble (bubbleheads?). I expect we will see more publicity of alternative long distance hikes but their effectiveness may be limited using flip flops given the romance with the one way long walk.


Traffic jams on highways are called … well, traffic jams. Herds of hikers — especially the hordes who hit the Trail northbound from Georgia in the spring — comprise the “Bubble.” Unless more thru-hikers avoid hitting Springer Mountain at once, it’s about to burst.
The reality of the Bubble is inconceivable. Imagine seeking a spot to sit near a shelter built for 10 — with 50-70 other weary hikers who are trying to find trees to hang hammocks, build campfires, set up tents, stock up on water and pee in privacy.
Forget your vision of a woodsy oasis with 150 trees conveniently spaced for hammocks. You’ll probably find a tent rudely erected inside the shelter with a groovy dude playing “world music” on an iSomething. Add in partiers, snorers and stoners, mice and men, and you’ll think you’re camping at Woodstock. (Ask your grandmother.)
Avoiding the Bubble — The Appalachian Trail Conservancy Way
You can avoid crowded conditions almost completely and make an even more positive impact by selecting an alternate start location. Mid-trail thru-hike starts can allow you to avoid weather extremes (if you wait until about mid-April). Starting a hike Georgia after April 15 and then planning to “flip” mid-trail also offers the benefits of avoiding crowds and hiking in milder weather.

Flip-Flop the Appalachian Trail (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/thru-hiking/alternative)(The link goes to a page that lists a half dozen or so different ways to hike the trail from the middle out)

Old Hiker
12-18-2015, 08:12
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?
Is a tactic to scare us into accepting whatever rules and regulations are coming down the …….Trail?
Sheesh.

saltysack
12-18-2015, 09:19
I foresee permits being issued to start at Springer or AFSP for s thru as in Yosemite....i.e. JMT...I personally don't have an issue with it...then again I have no desire to be around a lot of people while on a hike......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

soumodeler
12-18-2015, 10:17
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?
Is a tactic to scare us into accepting whatever rules and regulations are coming down the …….Trail?
Sheesh.


Yes.

Hawk Mountain Shelter April 9, 2015. I wrote in my blog for that day: "At 8 there were 38 tents and at least 55 people at the shelter. We have 3 fires going and about 4 separate groups hanging out."

A few days later we were camped just north of Low Gap shelter and another hiker came by and said that the shelter was packed and no place to camp. I believe them.

Pedaling Fool
12-18-2015, 10:20
I've also seen similar numbers, but they get reduced really quickly.

Gambit McCrae
12-18-2015, 10:20
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?
Is a tactic to scare us into accepting whatever rules and regulations are coming down the …….Trail?
Sheesh.


Yes, In the Smokies at Ice Water Springs shelter this March I counted 46 hikers. Tents galore in from, hammocks behind, people on the ground and porch, I think a few crawled in under the bottom bottom bunk! should to shoulder.

Night 2? it was a few less, 43 or so.

Malto
12-18-2015, 11:30
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?
Is a tactic to scare us into accepting whatever rules and regulations are coming down the …….Trail?
Sheesh.


yes close. Hawk mountain shelter on April 3rd 2011 had over 40 hikers. have little doubt that 50 is hit on a regular basis during peak times since then.

Gambit McCrae
12-18-2015, 11:47
Hell I've heard stories of over mountain being plum full before, that could be premeditated though due to trail magic, double or triple large groups.

Its my opinion (which don't count for didly), that trail magic should only be performed after the GSMNP, I think that would help weed out a good bit early on.

Kaptainkriz
12-18-2015, 12:05
10OCT15 at Thomas Knob there were 9 upstairs and 7 downstairs in the shelter with a dozen other tents scattered close nearby. People were hanging hammocks in the shelter and sleeping above others below them. That was before the scout troop showed up....

Old Hiker
12-18-2015, 12:10
Good grief – I stand…………, uh, sit corrected.

Wow. Just………wow.

I guess I’ve just been blessed not to see this type of herd in all the times while hiking with my Scouts or in 2012. I hope I keep being blessed this next year.

Mags
12-18-2015, 12:32
Burst? Not so sure...

Level out? Yes.

I imagine there are only so many people who want to attempt to put their life on hold for +/- 6 mos to go on a trek.

Of course, even the level amount of hiker is pretty darn large esp at the start of thru-hiking season.

Christoph
12-18-2015, 12:36
My experience starting April 19th this year: When I got to Springer, I was the only one there. Passed the 1st shelter and there were 2 people. On and off only a few hikers here and there. In the Smokies, that's where I caught up and the shelters were full, tents outside, etc. But it quickly dissipated. Pretty much at every shelter or camping spot I found, sometimes I wondered if I would be the only one there that night, but most of the time a few stragglers would come in. Guess I picked a good date for my attempt and will probably stick to that one again on my 2nd attempt soon. I did hear of some people that started before me found sometimes 20 or so people in camping areas, but no huge overcrowding. Just my 2 cents, seems around the bigger trail magic, trail days, and certain towns are where the most were at.

Venchka
12-18-2015, 12:58
I was contemplating alternative locations in the hope that some folks would see the light and venture elsewhere in the hope that the Bubble might ooze out to other parts of the world.
Then the light bulb went on. :cool:
Nope. Not saying a word about alternatives. Keep the Bubble where it is.
Following Mags' lead, I'll keep the less crowded places that I'm fond of to myself. If a person does their own research and finds one of my spots, that's cool. Some of us prefer not to follow the Herd.
As for the AT Bubble, Party On Dudes & Dudettes. :eek: Leave the good places uncrowded for the rest of us. ;)
Merry Christmas!

Wayne

dudeijuststarted
12-18-2015, 13:00
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?

Have definitely seen upwards of 50 through Georgia.

burger
12-18-2015, 13:07
Like the OP hinted at, all you have to do to avoid the crowds is do an alternative itinerary. SOBO, flip-flop, or divide the trail into chunks and jump around as you want.

Berserker
12-18-2015, 13:20
Wow! With the numbers people are reporting above I'm glad I'm done with a good portion of the Southern part of the AT. Although, I do typically try to stay out of the bubble, so I haven't personally run into anywhere near that amount of people on any of my section hikes. So yeah, I think I'll keep on hitting the trail on alternate dates to avoid the peak of the thru hiking season.

MuddyWaters
12-18-2015, 16:23
Its my opinion (which don't count for didly), that trail magic should only be performed after the GSMNP, I think that would help weed out a good bit early on.

Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

saltysack
12-18-2015, 17:01
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

Ha...spot on...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Traveler
12-18-2015, 17:07
Like the OP hinted at, all you have to do to avoid the crowds is do an alternative itinerary. SOBO, flip-flop, or divide the trail into chunks and jump around as you want.

That was the thrust of the article, but I wonder how many people are attracted to that as opposed to a single directional pursuit for an entire season. I am not sure if the alternative flips and flops will be attractive to those who envision a traditional thru hike unless there is a regulatory driver or cost associated with doing it.

Slo-go'en
12-18-2015, 17:15
Will the bubble burst? Probably not. The traditional early April (+/-) start is still the best time for weather. Spring in the south and fall in the north. It really doesn't get any better then that and missing either one (or worse, both) is a shame.

Dogwood
12-18-2015, 17:49
Has ANYONE EVER seen “50-70” hikers at a shelter?
Is a tactic to scare us into accepting whatever rules and regulations are coming down the …….Trail?
Sheesh.


Yes, and going back more than 10 yrs ago BEFORE the exponential thru-hiking numbers increases - Springer Mt Shelter over 70 people(shelter filled and umpteen tents and hammockers), Fontana Hilton(shelter FULL and several tents, hammockers and cowboy campers outside the shelter), and Ed Garvey Shelter(as stated, people being turned away from not only the shelter but the outside camping areas because they were filled).

Have seen quite a few times those AT hiker numbers(almost entirely thru-hikers) at motels, hostels, and massed into "non event" camping areas. I guess it is an "event" when that many camp in one tightly localized area with not much more than walking space between tents.


This is ALL describing situations during high peak AT use ie: in the AT NOBO thru-hiker bubble and holidays.

Dogwood
12-18-2015, 18:10
Like the OP hinted at, all you have to do to avoid the crowds is do an alternative itinerary. SOBO, flip-flop, or divide the trail into chunks and jump around as you want.


That was the thrust of the article, but I wonder how many people are attracted to that as opposed to a single directional pursuit for an entire season. I am not sure if the alternative flips and flops will be attractive to those who envision a traditional thru hike unless there is a regulatory driver or cost associated with doing it.

IMO, the reason why the alternate itinerary is not chosen as often as it could be is because thru-hiking the AT is approached by the masses in cookie cutter fashion.


Newbie thru-hiker wannabees, which let's get real, AT thru-hikers overwhelmingly are, want a nice comfortable convenient take it off the shelf here's how it's done thru-hike which the AT and hiking community provides. They want the familiarity of what someone else has done rather than embracing a deeper adventure involving a greater degree of personal self determination and being personally responsible for those decisions. AT thru-hikers are accustomed to LARGELY doing another person's hike. It's not necessarily good or bad. It's just how I see it.

However, as the more adventurous and imaginative and AT thru-hiking norm breaking Thru-Hikers, avail themselves of alternative thru-hiking itineraries grows some unfamiliarity will stop and hence......new sub norms will be created. Chugga chugaa choo choo. So the "AT experience" evolves.

archie
12-18-2015, 18:13
Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

Maybe the best post I have seen on WB. Should be on a sig line.

Odd Man Out
12-18-2015, 18:16
I'm promoting the Coin Flip Flop as an alternative itinerary. You go to HF and flip a coin. Heads you hike north, tails you hike south. When you get to the end, flop to the other and hike back to HF.

burger
12-18-2015, 18:27
There's another solution to overcrowding besides alternative itineraries that no one talks about: build more long trails to take some of the burden off the existing ones. There are already proposals/routes that could be upgraded into real trails with a little time and money: the "Eastern Continental Trail," the American Discovery Trail, I've seen a proposal for an "Intermountain Trail" that would include the AZT, a N-S route across Utah, and a a route across Idaho. If you stare at maps for a while, lots more possible routes come to mind. It just takes a few people with the time and resources to put together a route. But there is definitely space for more than 3 long trails in this country.

Venchka
12-18-2015, 19:11
Or...
Be creative. "Build" your own long trail.
How long does a trail have to be to be considered Long? The JMT is only a bit over 200 miles yet fols flock to it for their "thru-hikes". What's wrong with a "round about" hike?
Glacier National Park has 734 miles of trails. A person could connect a large percentage of those trails into a trip of several hundred miles. Of course there wouldn't be a convenience store and motel every 3 days.
The same could be said for the Grand Teton-Yellowstone-Wind River Range complex in Wyoming.
What's in a name? A few hundred miles of trail seems like long to me.
What it boils down to is convenience. The AT is close to half the population. Said population rarely ventures far from home. It's "easy" to hike in their own backyard.
No worries. There are still lots of places where the Bubble hasn't oozed into to.
Merry Christmas.

Wayne

ps: 4. Pacific Northwest Trail. Who will be the first to claim the Western Triple Crown: CDT-PCT-PNT? Or toss in the AT for the Quadruple Crown?

evyck da fleet
12-19-2015, 11:45
It's really not difficult to avoid the bubble for the most part. Don't stay at or tent near shelters. I've tented at shelters where 50 people have stayed but I've never come close to hiking past 50 people in a day.

The AT is the trail most people know and is a great starter trail for newbies. As gear weight has come down and more youtube videos pop up of people's thru hikes, more people are being encouraged to follow their dream and attempt a thru hike. I don't have a problem with that or when inevitably a permit system is employed to limit their impact. And if the ATC wants to print leave no trace practices on the permit and charge a fee I'm fine with that too.

Alternative hikes are great if you live near the trail but for the majority of people starting at the southern terminus in early April is going to give you the best weather and save on the additional transportation costs associated with a flip flop.

jimmyjam
12-19-2015, 12:29
I have seen pictures at the Four Pines that had well over 30 or so tents in his yard. And that's halfway thru Virginia

Lyle
12-19-2015, 12:59
If one solid stretch is important, pick an alternate route to hike from Georgia to Maine. If the attraction is to hike the distance, in one continuous route, do it, just find alternate routes. Way too much emphasis on purity, people are purifying the AT to death.

burger
12-19-2015, 13:28
Or...
Be creative. "Build" your own long trail.

This is a great option for experienced hikers. I've spent hours pouring over maps to piece together hypothetical 200-mile routes in places I've lived (haven't had the time off to hike any of them yet, but it will happen someday).

But for someone new to long-distance hiking, which is probably the majority of AT and PCT hikers nowadays, this simply isn't an option. They don't have the skills or chutzpah to strike out on their own. That's why someone (the government and trail organizations) needs to actually build a trail, create maps, etc. if alternative trails are going to take some of the crowds off the AT.

Dogwood
12-19-2015, 14:16
With a narrow human centric mind we're mistakenly not recognizing the very nature of what the Appalachian Trail is when discussing the bubble. The AT is not just a footpath. What makes the AT so special is that it is a Footpath through the "Wilderness." It is a Footpath of the "Wilderness." Take away the "Wilderness", the "wildness", and the AT is well a nice long walk but it loses the character that makes it so special. The AT is perhaps BEST described as a Corridor of Conservation. A long sliver of hope as Matthewski so eloquently stated. The AT represents some of the BEST attributes of humanity having some semblance of balance with Nature and cooperation and sacrifice among MANY. The AT is NOT just about usage by people...period. The AT involves balancing the forces of human desire with the needs of a larger ecology.

So There I Was
12-19-2015, 14:36
The AT is not the only place to see this type of crowding. Even out in Alaska the common trails get throngs of people. Parts of Denali turn into tent cities in the summer. Semester break in May brings plane loads of college kids to hike the Stampede Trail and see the Magic Bus of Chris. But, if I got away from the main trails or braved Alaska, I could go a week without seeing another person....And that is only because I didn't want to carry more than a week of food.

I get out into the great wide open to be alone, be still, and listen. But, as long as people are courteous and leave no trace, I have no issue with seeing Millennials off the couch, away from Starbucks, and into something that may change their limited view of the world.

When I retire and can stop doing sections, Doing my Thru hike will be about my walk and a little of re-centering to civilian life. Nothing more. Sure thousands have been up and down the trail before me. Just as hundreds of thousands have run the same Marathons I have run. BUT, hundreds of Millions have not...And therein lies the accomplishment the younger people seek. Even if the way was made by the thousands before them

Dogwood
12-19-2015, 14:37
This is a great option for experienced hikers. I've spent hours pouring over maps to piece together hypothetical 200-mile routes in places I've lived (haven't had the time off to hike any of them yet, but it will happen someday).

But for someone new to long-distance hiking, which is probably the majority of AT and PCT hikers nowadays, this simply isn't an option. They don't have the skills or chutzpah to strike out on their own. That's why someone (the government and trail organizations) needs to actually build a trail, create maps, etc. if alternative trails are going to take some of the crowds off the AT.

I totally agree with route building piecing together existing trails, back roads, right of ways, skiing/snowmobiling trails, old railroad grades, bike paths, off trail sections, etc.

However, I disagree that it takes a greatly experienced or knowledgeable hiker to take on these routes. IMHO, what it takes is largely a willingness to avail oneself of what already exists. Here in the U.S., country wide as well as regionally, we are blessed with an abundance of already existing maintained trails, WITH MORE THAN ENOUGH ALREADY EXISTING BETA, some of which are largely untapped. When the hiking community moves beyond the most familiar, beyond their hubris, and steps up to this knowledge they would be more willing to avail themselves of the already infinite amount of maintained trail hiking options. WHEN hikers have MORE A LOVE OF HIKING rather than a LOVE TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR A NAMED TRAIL THEY HIKED we will see more availing themselves of the vast hiking opportunities. *We get too hung up on named trails or named notoriously published "thru-hikes!" The majority of hikers want hikes they can conveniently recognize and be easily recognized for hiking!

Dogwood
12-19-2015, 14:45
The AT has moved away from being recognized as it was originally intended to be recognized since its inception and as it still is today...a system of interconnected trails. Most don't see it that way though. When they don't see it that way that ignorance is further promoted. That perception STRONGLY factors into the AT between Springer MT and Mt Katahdin sometimes being possibly more heavily used by humans than it should be.

MuddyWaters
12-19-2015, 14:45
With a narrow human centric mind we're mistakenly not recognizing the very nature of what the Appalachian Trail is when discussing the bubble. The AT is not just a footpath. What makes the AT so special is that it is a Footpath through the "Wilderness." It is a Footpath of the "Wilderness." Take away the "Wilderness", the "wildness", and the AT is well a nice long walk but it loses the character that makes it so special. The AT is perhaps BEST described as a Corridor of Conservation. A long sliver of hope as Matthewski so eloquently stated. The AT represents some of the BEST attributes of humanity having some semblance of balance with Nature and cooperation and sacrifice among MANY. The AT is NOT just about usage by people...period. The AT involves balancing the forces of human desire with the needs of a larger ecology.

There isnt much wilderness to it over much of it. Wildness is all you can hope for, and the very presence of large amounts of users together destroys that completely.

Other places are managed to preserve the wildness of your experience in national parks. That is why permits are limited on the JMT, or yosemite. They arent worried about wearing out the trail tread. They are committed to the backcountry user experience.

However, the AT was brought into existence as a National Scenic Trail with the statement that access be kept as unregulated as possible. No thought at the time was given to preservation of experience. Indeed, they didnt envision what i has become today with its support networks of hostels, shuttlers, and spring crowd.

One issue is that some people simply dont see change that is needed over time. What worked 50 yrs ago, doesnt work anymore, and most certainly wont 20 yrs from now.

Without abrupt change, the remaining wild aspects of it will soon be irreversibly lost. Cell phones and social media has hastened this. If you like what the AT was 30 yrs ago, sorry, thats gone forever. If you like what it is TODAY, well you should work to keep it that way. Otherwise, I expect you will not like what it is 20 yrs from now.

Dogwood
12-19-2015, 15:10
There is adequate beta on the decently maintained and signed Foothills Tr, Bartram Tr, AT, and BMT. Yet, I ask how many hikers have considered combining those trails to make a hike but instead CHOOSE to flock to some other more recognized LD hike? What it took is for someone like an imaginative Cam Honan "Swami" who is a bona fide hiker, a person who purely loves to walk, to advertise a Southeastern Serpentine hike. And Cam, isn't even an American! Cam isn't from the east coast. Cam isn't from the southeastern U.S. That hike has been there for yrs available to a GREAT MANY U.S. hikers. YET, AMERICANS didn't take advantage of that opp when it already existed.


Here's another prime example on this thread: So say an east coaster wants to fly out west and experience the JMT..
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115768-So-say-an-east-coaster-wants-to-fly-out-west-and-experience-the-JMT (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115768-So-say-an-east-coaster-wants-to-fly-out-west-and-experience-the-JMT)
LuckyMan did a SHWEET LD hike being imaginative by letting go of his hubris that required being recognized for a JMT thru-hike. Yet, he accomplished what he wanted experiencing his love of the JMT and most of all LOVE OF HIKING WITHOUT having to be OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED for a JMT Thru-hike.

MORE hikers CAN and SHOULD do what Swami and LuckMan did! Recognize hikes for being a hike NOT HAVING TO BE A RECOGNIZED TRAIL OR RECOGNIZED HIKE. If more hikers did this the AT bubble might lessen.

MuddyWaters
12-19-2015, 15:19
There is adequate beta on the decently maintained and signed Foothills Tr, Bartram Tr, AT, and BMT. Yet, I ask how many hikers have considered combining those trails to make a hike but instead CHOOSE to flock to some other more recognized LD hike? What it took is for someone like an imaginative Cam Honan "Swami" who is a bona fide hiker, a person who purely loves to walk, to advertise a Southeastern Serpentine hike. And Cam, isn't even an American! Cam isn't from the east coast. Cam isn't from the southeastern U.S. That hike has been there for yrs available to a GREAT MANY U.S. hikers. YET, AMERICANS didn't take advantage of that opp when it already existed.


Here's another prime example on this thread: So say an east coaster wants to fly out west and experience the JMT..
(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115768-So-say-an-east-coaster-wants-to-fly-out-west-and-experience-the-JMT)http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115768-So-say-an-east-coaster-wants-to-fly-out-west-and-experience-the-JMT
LuckyMan did a SHWEET LD hike being imaginative by letting go of his hubris that required being recognized for a JMT thru-hike. Yet, he accomplished what he wanted experiencing his love of the JMT and most of all LOVE OF HIKING WITHOUT having to be OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED for a JMT Thru-hike.

MORE hikers CAN and SHOULD do what Swami and LuckMan did! Recognize hikes for being a hike NOT HAVING TO BE A RECOGNIZED TRAIL OR RECOGNIZED HIKE. If more hikers did this the AT bubble might lessen.



The AT is heavily travelled, safe, well maintained, simple to plan, and easy to hike logistically with it extensive support network and frequent resupplies. It also has shelters for the tent-averse. There are few hazardous water crossings south of Maine, and it requires nothing more than a $15 guidebook. Its also in driving distance of the whole eastern half of the country, which happens to be a very populous part.

Then again, it might be the patch and certificate..

Mags
12-19-2015, 15:55
Then again, it might be the patch and certificate..

I don't think for the AT per se. I think you hit the nail on the head for the reasons people hike the AT (classic route with lots of history and culture. logistics, ease of use, population base, etc.)

However, for other trails, esp in the LDH community among 'experienced' [1] backpackers, there are a LOT of what I call "alphabet soup hikers". Unless it is route with an acronym, it is not going to be done. The various Wind River High Routes is a great example.

People have been hiking the crest of the Wind River Range for years. Now? Add a fancy acronym, throw in a website, have a downloadable map pack and -BOOM- the route is popular.

Not that I don't want to do my own alphabet soup route again at some point, but I think many of the lesser known routes are suggestions to be modified like a good recipe. The last time I attempted an alphabet soup route, I realized I was missing some cool stuff just for the sake of doing a route. Hell, at this point in my backpacking career, I'd even hitch around long road walks (paved) if there is no compelling reason to hike it such as scenery, historic interest, etc. Just connecting footsteps is not enough if you don't care about bowls of alphabet soup.

Lesson learned.



[1] Know how to use a smart device with a map set? :D

Bronk
12-19-2015, 16:01
If you are hiking within 50 miles of Damascus for a week around trail days you will find groups of 50 or more at shelters and tent sites as people hike into town and back out...with many thruhikers who pass Damascus flip flopping back in and many skipping ahead and flipping back.

Traveler
12-20-2015, 09:58
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

This was one of the best posts (in my view) of 2015.

Lone Wolf
12-20-2015, 12:14
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

awesome :D

SWODaddy
12-20-2015, 14:00
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

Yep. Makes no sense.

ChuckT
12-21-2015, 21:02
Hike smart - avoid the bubble.

Mtsman
12-22-2015, 00:29
Hike smart - avoid the bubble.


THIS^^^

If people have a problem with the bubble... don't be in it. All this talk about "experienced hikers should create their own trail" or "ABC hikers are just after the alphabet accomplishments". At least people are getting off their bums! Yes, maybe the bubble hiking method is not for you. At least that bubble has hiked more than to their car and back in the last year. If you don't like the bubble and people in the bubble bug you, then it sounds like you messed up and didn't plan right as an experienced hiker.... You have the gear, you have the knowledge, HYOH.


Yes, those kids (mentally, some are older than dirt and still are kids) in the bubble are new hikers. You can't expect them to do hours/days/months/years of research to find that ONE trail that fits them perfect before they ever go on one hike. The ABC hikes are well known, fairly planned out, and easy to go on when you are new. Why is it a surprise to the experts that they are overcrowded and there are immature hikers on these trails?

Do I agree with people on the trail partying their butt off and using the trail as an excuse to get away from the society norm to do these things? Not really, but that is not my type of hike. I am willing to bet that most (if not all) of the hikers here hike or have hiked to get away from societies norm at one time or another. You may have not killed your liver or brain cells like some of these people but the thought process is similar.

Now, I will not protect the HYOH concept when it comes to breaking already made rules and being socially rude and self entitled. I can understand if a particular hiker is being a true donkey and breaking rules and laws habitually. But lumping said hiker into all hikers in the bubble and chastising all of them as a sum is just wrong and frankly it's bigoted.

That is just my opinion YMMV, HYOH.

Dogwood
12-22-2015, 01:53
The AT is heavily travelled, safe, well maintained, simple to plan, and easy to hike logistically with it extensive support network and frequent resupplies. It also has shelters for the tent-averse. There are few hazardous water crossings south of Maine, and it requires nothing more than a $15 guidebook. Its also in driving distance of the whole eastern half of the country, which happens to be a very populous part.

Then again, it might be the patch and certificate..

The population flocks to the AT for ease of convenience and because it offers the most familiarity.

If I said the LT, OT, and PT provide almost all those characteristics yet most would have little or no idea what trails I just acronymed. WHY? Largely because they aren't as recognized AND HENCE HIKING THEM DOESN'T OFFER THE SAME PERCEIVED PRESTIGE.

squeezebox
12-22-2015, 02:57
Nobody want's to hike the AT anymore it's too crowded.

squeezebox
12-22-2015, 02:59
Feeding the hikers is too much like feeding the bears, It just causes too much trouble and misbehavior.

Mtsman
12-22-2015, 03:06
The population flocks to the AT for ease of convenience and because it offers the most familiarity.

If I said the LT, OT, and PT provide almost all those characteristics yet most would have little or no idea what trails I just acronymed. WHY? Largely because they aren't as recognized AND HENCE HIKING THEM DOESN'T OFFER THE SAME PERCEIVED PRESTIGE.

Dogwood,

I would have agreed with you if you stopped with your first sentence. I still agree that is the main reason. New hikers are not likely to think of the prestige as much.

Maybe you have forgotten what its like being a new hiker. Let me try and help you. Unless you live by an "under rated" trail, chances are the new hikers don't even know those hikes exist. They know a few local trails and now they want to branch out on their first LD hike. Lets put "long distance hike" into google and see what pops up. PCT and the AT come up on the first 5 hits. A top 10 long distance hike review comes up in those first 5 too and guess whats first, The AT, The PCT, and CDT, are in the top 5 of that list. Most of the other trails on that list are things like "the great wall of China" or the "Himalaya's" or an "Italian trail" all of which are much more logistically challenging to get to from America. Then there is the PT with a disclaimer (This trail is so underdeveloped, isolated, rigorous, and remote that only a few hikers have ever attempted it, never mind completed it.) That doesn't sound very user friendly and down right irresponsible for a new hiker to go on.

The AT especially, is designed for new LD hikers. its just what it has become and I think rightfully so. Its enough miles to feel proud about, its easy enough to get off the trail if you need comfort but hard enough that some people have died there trying to complete it. There is enough information on the web that you can gain the courage to go. I think the prestige is a very very small part of the new long distance hikers mind. Yes they want a little notoriety finishing one of the ABC's, ill accept that but I think it is much much much more than that when it comes down to it. They want to be safe, they want some knowledge pre-hike, and just encase they truly dont like the LD style hiking, they can bow out without backtracking 200 miles or dying out in the middle of nowhere.

I will apply what I said to muddywaters in another thread to you as well Dogwood. I respect the crap out of a great deal of the posters here on WB. Many of them have hiked more than I ever will. Many of them have forgotten more than I will ever know about hiking and nature in general. So YMMV, HYOH.

ChuckT
12-22-2015, 05:57
Mtsman, perhaps you want to chill a bit?

Traveler
12-22-2015, 07:48
The AT is heavily travelled, safe, well maintained, simple to plan, and easy to hike logistically with it extensive support network and frequent resupplies. It also has shelters for the tent-averse. There are few hazardous water crossings south of Maine, and it requires nothing more than a $15 guidebook. Its also in driving distance of the whole eastern half of the country, which happens to be a very populous part.

Then again, it might be the patch and certificate..

This probably gets its arms around the "bubble" issue best, at least in general terms. With the relative abundance of hiker services, little need for navigation skills, assurance that even if irresponsible there are others around you can rely on for help, ease of access, and countless internet sources at the ready, it's become a beacon for the inadequately prepared or less than serious people who mix in with those who have properly planned, equipped, and trained for a serious pursuit.

Perhaps the single most influential issue that makes the AT the most attractive LD trail in the US is where the trail is located. The Eastern Time Zone holds approximately 47% of the US population (150,400,000 people), most everyone in this time zone can find a trail access in 400 - 500 miles (or 6-8 hour drive time) or less. No other long distance trail in North America is this conveniently located with the level of hiker services.

This is not to say the AT isn't a difficult challenge, the bubble thins out over time from those suffering injury or financial woes, many are simply unprepared physically, mentally, and/or emotionally for the full journey. As a result, according to the AMC only about 20% of those who start out in GA finish in ME several months later. Interestingly the PCTA estimation of those starting the Pacific Crest Trail that complete it is 50%. This does not suggest the PCT is easier, but does suggest without abundant hiker services, the need for navigational skills, and the crossing of several different climatic regions those who make the attempt are more serious and less apt to be as casual about it as opposed to the AT.

I do hope Mags is right, that the bubble will level out or even drop if the next generation comes up with something new like ice floe hopping in the arctic ocean, tree vine swinging in Costa Rica, or rail to rail trailing on bikes.

somers515
12-22-2015, 08:31
The population flocks to the AT for ease of convenience and because it offers the most familiarity.

If I said the LT, OT, and PT provide almost all those characteristics yet most would have little or no idea what trails I just acronymed. WHY? Largely because they aren't as recognized AND HENCE HIKING THEM DOESN'T OFFER THE SAME PERCEIVED PRESTIGE.

Ok I'll bite! The LT is the Long Trail in Vermont correct? OT is . . . Ozark Trail in Missouri? PT is the Pinhoti Trail in Alabama/Georgia?

Starchild
12-22-2015, 08:51
IMO, the reason why the alternate itinerary is not chosen as often as it could be is because thru-hiking the AT is approached by the masses in cookie cutter fashion.


Newbie thru-hiker wannabees, which let's get real, AT thru-hikers overwhelmingly are, want a nice comfortable convenient take it off the shelf here's how it's done thru-hike which the AT and hiking community provides. They want the familiarity of what someone else has done rather than embracing a deeper adventure involving a greater degree of personal self determination and being personally responsible for those decisions. AT thru-hikers are accustomed to LARGELY doing another person's hike. It's not necessarily good or bad. It's just how I see it.

However, as the more adventurous and imaginative and AT thru-hiking norm breaking Thru-Hikers, avail themselves of alternative thru-hiking itineraries grows some unfamiliarity will stop and hence......new sub norms will be created. Chugga chugaa choo choo. So the "AT experience" evolves.

What I feel you are missing in this is the thru hikers want to be in the bubble for the sense of community, actually a sense of family, a connection to others who accept you for who you are along with the connection to nature.

It is a evolution, at one time people wanted to do thing like thru hiking to get away from people, introverts sought out these places and experiences. It was their place of solace and connecting with nature. But more and more people are finding their way into the woods and along with the connection to nature, they bring their connection and desire to connect to community. It is for this reason that I don't see the bubble bursting but becoming a 'american pilgrimage' of sorts. Those who seek out solace will hike elsewhere besides the bubble.

BonBon
12-22-2015, 08:52
I thought hiking the AT was pretty hard. I did not hit that much trail magic, except on special weekends (Easter, Mothers Day) and a few random people (mostly thru hikers) set up. I was a little slower so it was usually gone by the time I got to whatever road crossing. I did appreciate those who left water under trees in New York when all of the creeks were dry. The bubble was big in the beginning, nonexistent for me in the middle-and back again with a different and more comfortable feel at the end. I spent most nights camping away from shelters but stayed in or near a few, especially up north. I definitely had my solitude for a large part of the hike. I did not really understand or care about the concept of trail magic when I set out, probably because my primary understanding of the trail was 3 decades in the making. After doing the trail, I think it is the "hiker feeds" that really attract the most raucous behavior, and maybe Trail days type of events. Those little old ladies who set up at secluded road crossings and hand out fruit and cookies in honor of their son who hiked or whatever- I don't think they are hurting anyone or anything. And by the way- those road crossings and towns have also been there for decades- and have been available to hikers for generations. It is nothing really new. I talked to lots of hikers who were on their second or third hike over many decades and discussed the differences of then and now. Now: more people, trail is better blazed, more hostels, smart phones make communicating easier. Still hard- same mountains- still have to put one foot in front of the other.
One way to avoid the early crowding- if you have the budget- is stay at Blood Mountain Cabins or somewhere like that and day hike using a shuttle service to pick and drop off each day until you get past Neels Gap. I did that- used it as my real shake-down of all of my gear because I am from Florida (flat and warm) and while in the beginning I thought it was not an authentic way to start, I now look at it as the best decision I made. I have no regrets. I avoided the extremely crowded shelters and campsites in the beginning, practiced using my gear in the real environment and weather, got some legs under me, and did not get demoralized right out of the gate. As an inexperienced backpacker, I thought it was the right thing for me to do. I met lots of the old timer hikers (some who have commented here) -sitting around fires on logs, talking to hikers in those first days, and getting ready to head off to those hiker feeds I mentioned earlier. Hiker feeds don't just attract newbies:)

Traillium
12-22-2015, 09:31
It is for this reason that I don't see the bubble bursting but becoming a 'american pilgrimage' of sorts. Those who seek out solace will hike elsewhere besides the bubble.

Starchild's idea resonates with me.
As a Canadian, we don't quite have a tradition like this. True, we have the paddle-your-own-canoe tradition rooted in our fur trade, and now the recreational version of which that began with Algonquin Park, etc., and now extends to the Nahanni and the Coppermine, etc. (My father was part of that first wave of recreational paddlers back in the 1920s. My family was part of the Boomer's resurgence in the 1970s–80s.)
But in terms of hiking … Not so much … We have short trails through parks here in the east and also out west. We have the Bruce Trail (which I am going to embark on in May!) — but it's almost inimical to thru-hikers. We have the nascent Trans-Canada Trail, which is a loose amalgamation of multi-purpose trails, and one that only a handful of brave have or are attempting to do Ling sections, let alone thru-hike. (Search for them — very impressive!)
I personally know half a dozen fellow Canucks who pilgrim to The Camino in France/Spain to get that long-distance meditation. But I know no-one directly who has done a long-distance thru-hike in Canada. (Yes, such folk do exist, but I don't know them personally.)
So you have an 'American pilgrimage'. This is wonderful! I'm envious.


Bruce Traillium

Notch7
12-24-2015, 23:13
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

Thank you!

I get that the people providing the so-called "trail magic" want to help out and be part of the AT thru hike experience. But this isn't the way to do it.

Want to help out?

1. Volunteer to do trail maintenance or on other ATC volunteer activities
2. Donate money to the ATC
3. Give your food, or the money you used to buy the food, to a homeless shelter or food bank.

Dogwood
12-25-2015, 05:29
Of course, of course Mtsman and Starchild and AT hiker you are all correct by adding to what I said in #45. Of course I missed stuff. LOL. No way am I intending to cover every aspect of why the AT is most hiked. I'm not writing a comprehensive book on the topic. It's taken me awhile but I more often remind myself of that button "POST QUICK REPLY."

Have to leave space for others to add value without feebly attempting to share all I could through an in depth comprehensive analysis or through rebuttals when I'm ever reminded of that "POST QUICK REPLY" button ominously looming at the bottom of a digital cyber space page with each succeeding keystroke. I don't have to be the final word on everything. It's not a competition. It's a respectful exploratory discussion, a give and take, a conversation, a talk AND A HEEDFUL LISTENING session, and often a dialectic. We all, at least most of us, add value. :D I'm not the Holy Grail of all that is good and right in the hiking world! I'm not that entertaining, am I? LOL.

Lately, I've had the opportunity to spend time here practicing my writing. More in LIFE than being a blogger or cyber hiker though. Reality is out there under the trees, in the sun's rays, the wind in the pine, feeling the mist of the waterfall on the cheek, the alpineglow, the purple sunrise, hearing the crunching of the snow underfoot, a gurgling Appalachian brook, dolphins surfing the waves, the almost effortless ebb and flow of a sea turtle in a frothy coastal whirlpool, the screeching of the falcons and hoo hoo hooting of the owl... not here in the pixels, "1's' and "0's."

JohnHuth
12-25-2015, 14:10
Returning to what might be the spirit of the start of the thread. My main concern is that overcrowding might put a major strain on the woods, particularly near the shelters. I know a guy who likes to hike from Springer to Hot Springs on a fairly regular basis just to be in the company of people starting out on their thru's. I met him when I was hiking in NC with my son who was doing his thru. This was at the start of the bubble.

I personally found it crowded near the shelters for my taste, but on the other hand, I got to know some folks doing their thru-hikes and I enjoyed their company. I also got a chance to talk with my son on the trail. This was a wonderful chance, as we just enjoyed the woods, didn't have to talk if we didn't feel like it, talk about life, this and that. It was magic for me.

On the other hand, I have hiked the Long Trail. When I was younger and came back from college to Philadelphia, I hiked solo on pieces of the Horseshoe Trail during the Xmas holidays - had the trail all to myself, it seemed, and that was wonderful in its own right - seeing cornfields covered with snow in midwinter. I had a hike in the Pasayten Wilderness in Washington State near the BC border - wonderful. 6 days without other humans, and lots of cougar sign (a plus for me, as I like to do animal tracking). These less trod areas can be magical in their own right, all with their own character.

Back to the 'tragedy of the commons' theme. In the Wallowa-Eagle Cap Wilderness, I saw large bits of alpine tundra ruined by over-use. In one case, a Boy Scout troop of 40 seemed intent on killing just about every living plant on the campsite.

Our wilds are a wonderful resource and should be enjoyed by all, but at the same time, I do have concerns about overuse - unfortunately no answer to the dilemma of how to preserve *and* make open to all.

Traveler
12-25-2015, 14:16
Our wilds are a wonderful resource and should be enjoyed by all, but at the same time, I do have concerns about overuse - unfortunately no answer to the dilemma of how to preserve *and* make open to all.

The only way that has been done successfully is regulating use. Its a delicate balancing act, but does work in various places where its used to a large extent. The problem with the AT is the number of access points and ease of access to them complicates if not scraps this model.

Dogwood
12-26-2015, 00:34
The AT is heavily travelled, safe, well maintained, simple to plan, and easy to hike logistically with it extensive support network and frequent resupplies. It also has shelters for the tent-averse. There are few hazardous water crossings south of Maine, and it requires nothing more than a $15 guidebook. Its also in driving distance of the whole eastern half of the country, which happens to be a very populous part.

Then again, it might be the patch and certificate..


The population flocks to the AT for ease of convenience and because it offers the most familiarity.

If I said the LT, OT, and PT provide almost all those characteristics yet most would have little or no idea what trails I just acronymed. WHY? Largely because they aren't as recognized AND HENCE HIKING THEM DOESN'T OFFER THE SAME PERCEIVED PRESTIGE.


Ok I'll bite! The LT is the Long Trail in Vermont correct? OT is . . . Ozark Trail in Missouri? PT is the Pinhoti Trail in Alabama/Georgia?

Although OT could stand for Ozark Tr in Missouri I was referring to the Ouachita Tr in Oklahoma and Arkansas BOTH neglected trails by east coast hikers who often have the notion the east coast is the center of the nation the world.

Think about this: 1)The Ouachita Tr is within a 600 mile or so radius of a huge population of the U.S(Dallas, Houston, St Louis, Kansas City, Omaha, Chicago, Indianapolis, SO MANY BIG Ohio cities, Tennessee Cities(Memphis, Chattanooga, Nashville, etc), Shreveport, Baton Rouge, Jackson Miss, Birmingham/Montgomery Alabama, TALLAHASSEE FL, Kentucky, ATLANTA GA, etc 2) has decent local support not of the AT degree but not many trails do!) 3) Has excellent FREE topo maps 4) excellent guidebook by Tim Ernst @ $20 5) has multiple opps to do loop hikes 6) HAS SHELTERS. Some brand spanking new!. 7) has a lengthy window of acceptable fair weather for a section or thru-hike 8) a length that is more in line for time strapped thru-hiking vacations 9) is served by public transit at a reasonable distance from west/east termini. Logistics aren't ANY more difficult resupply or getting to the east west termini than the AT N/S termini although these opps are definitely less well know or what folks are familiar 10) is safe but not safe in the sense you're hiking with masses of other hikers as you usually are on the AT during typical fair weather AT seasons

Why don't more people do the Pinhoti Tr if just the Alabama section too? Familiarity(history, convenience, etc), less prestige, etc.

MuddyWaters
12-26-2015, 01:13
Although OT could stand for Ozark Tr in Missouri I was referring to the Ouachita Tr in Oklahoma and Arkansas BOTH neglected trails by east coast hikers who often have the notion the east coast is the center of the nation the world.

Think about this: 1)The Ouachita Tr is within a 600 mile or so radius of a huge population of the U.S(Dallas, Houston, St Louis, Kansas City, Omaha, Chicago, Indianapolis, SO MANY BIG Ohio cities, Tennessee Cities(Memphis, Chattanooga, Nashville, etc), Shreveport, Baton Rouge, Jackson Miss, Birmingham/Montgomery Alabama, TALLAHASSEE FL, Kentucky, ATLANTA GA, etc 2) has decent local support not of the AT degree but not many trails do!) 3) Has excellent FREE topo maps 4) excellent guidebook by Tim Ernst @ $20 5) has multiple opps to do loop hikes 6) HAS SHELTERS. Some brand spanking new!. 7) has a lengthy window of acceptable fair weather for a section or thru-hike 8) a length that is more in line for time strapped thru-hiking vacations 9) is served by public transit at a reasonable distance from west/east termini. Logistics aren't ANY more difficult resupply or getting to the east west termini than the AT N/S termini although these opps are definitely less well know or what folks are familiar 10) is safe but not safe in the sense you're hiking with masses of other hikers as you usually are on the AT during typical fair weather AT seasons

Why don't more people do the Pinhoti Tr if just the Alabama section too? Familiarity(history, convenience, etc), less prestige, etc.

Not as easy to access or resupply on the Ouachita trail.
Water is scarce is its biggest drawback. In particular I recall theres one 20+ mile dry stretch depending.
Many people that thru hike it cache food and water
Hot, humid much of yr, bugs.
A lot fewer people too
You can unexpectedly find sections closed by forest service doing controlled burns, etc. You need to check for these,things ahead of time.

In,a nutshell, it is not quite as simple or reliable as AT.

Dogwood
12-26-2015, 02:31
Not as easy to access or resupply on the Ouachita trail.

Easy enough to reliably resupply every 100 miles OR LESS which AT hikers going through the 100 mile wilderness on the AT address regularly just fine. Whether one buys resupplies along the way, mails all their resupply to PO's lodges, campgrounds, etc, and/or takes a hybrid resupply approach ALL VERY DOABLE on a OT THRU-HIKE. NOT hard AT ALL!

Water is scarce is its biggest drawback. In particular I recall theres one 20+ mile dry stretch depending.

This is SOMETIMES THE CASE but what's typically being done is comparing water availability to something like the MEGA DETAILED water availability beta of the AT and that trail's frequency of water as if the AT is the standard by which all other hikes should be compared. I observe this comparison repeatedly from in a rut east coast/SPOILED AT only hikers. I say BS! Expand you mindset past the AT standards FOR PETE'S SAKE. Water availability is a factor of season, recent weather, an individual's own undocumented water finding availability, etc. OMG, we have to THINK CRITICALLY about these things rather than being able to lazily turn our minds off and giving in to a spoiled hiking mentality? Seems many don't want to think on a LD hike. It's easier to be lazy and have THE MOST IMMEDIATE CONVENIENCE OF A TON OF OVER ANALYZED WATER BETA and ASSUMING WATER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO THE TRAIL.

FWIW, on a fall OT west to east thru-hike in a drier yr and at a drier seasonal time of the yr the longest water haul I had without seeing water directly on trail or within 1/4 mile of the trail accessed from lodges, camps, etc was 11 miles. Certainly doable when some basic knowledge is applied as PCT, CDT, and AZT thru-hikers amply demonstrate! Seems these other hikers are doing OK.

Many people that thru hike it cache food and water.

Funny I don't know of any. I certainly didn't cache food or water. Perhaps some do though. It's not a necessity IMHO when the available OT resupply beta and Tim Ernst's well done OT Guidebook and possibly one of the FREE OT Topos are reviewed. Oops, that gets back to thinking on a hike. Can't have that?


Hot, humid much of yr, bugs.

Umm, OT has a long thru-hike window of opportunity possibly all 12 months. Arkansas does have seasonal changes. Don't hike during the most humid hottest parts of the yr. Umm, it's a tactic applied on the AT not to generally thru-hike it during winter, no? It's a tactic applied by a large majority of AZT thru and section hikes not to hike in the hottest summer months, no? Bugs? Don't hikers avoid or address insects like hoards of biting black flies in Maine and Vermont going SOBO or mosquitos in PA, NJ,and NY on the AT? What, can't also do that on the OT now?

A lot fewer people too.

ABSOLUTELY. Saw no other OT thru-hiker on my OT thru-hike. Met lots of great OT hikers though MANY from Arkansas and Missouri. Nice folks!
Stayed at about 5 or 6 of the very nicely built supportive Friends of the Ouachita Trail(FOOT) folk's shelters though ALWAYS having the entire shelter to myself. NEVER saw a rat or mouse either? Two new shelters were built since I thru-hiked the OT too with 9 so far and three more planned taking it up to 12 NEW FRESH CLEAN OT SHELTERS making a OT thruhike capable of being completed by staying in a shelter and/or campground EACH NIGHT. THANK YOU FOOT and PEOPLE OF ARKANSAS! These folks are investing so WE have opps to hike in different places. http://friendsot.org/ http://friendsot.org/about_the_trail/trail-shelter-project/

You can unexpectedly find sections closed by forest service doing controlled burns, etc. You need to check for these,things ahead of time.

Maybe so. I NEVER encountered having to deal with hiking around a controlled burn or forest fire on the OT like I have several times in Cali on the PCT, Sierras, etc.

In,a nutshell, it is not quite as simple or reliable as AT.

It seems that way but with some due diligence, thinking, and reducing the unfamiliar it's NOT as difficult to hike the OT or for that matter the Ozark Highlands Tr as one might initially perceive. Do NOT believe all the negative hype.

Jake2c
12-26-2015, 02:39
I have only been hiking a few years and have completed a few sections on the AT. Only place I saw big numbers of people was trail days in Damascus. I see here in this thread about a half dozen other spots where big crowds have been noted. For the most part, most of the time I have found plenty of alone time. Some of the comments about trail magic I think are a bit harsh. These are just good people trying to be kind, and part of something they maybe did long ago. The trail is a challenge which is why I am doing it. I am glad I am afforded the opportunity to do this before it becomes over regulated.

MuddyWaters
12-26-2015, 08:10
Not as easy to access or resupply on the Ouachita trail.

Easy enough to reliably resupply every 100 miles OR LESS which AT hikers going through the 100 mile wilderness on the AT address regularly just fine. Whether one buys resupplies along the way, mails all their resupply to PO's lodges, campgrounds, etc, and/or takes a hybrid resupply approach ALL VERY DOABLE on a OT THRU-HIKE. NOT hard AT ALL!

Water is scarce is its biggest drawback. In particular I recall theres one 20+ mile dry stretch depending.

This is SOMETIMES THE CASE but what's typically being done is comparing water availability to something like the MEGA DETAILED water availability beta of the AT and that trail's frequency of water as if the AT is the standard by which all other hikes should be compared. I observe this comparison repeatedly from in a rut east coast/SPOILED AT only hikers. I say BS! Expand you mindset past the AT standards FOR PETE'S SAKE. Water availability is a factor of season, recent weather, an individual's own undocumented water finding availability, etc. OMG, we have to THINK CRITICALLY about these things rather than being able to lazily turn our minds off and giving in to a spoiled hiking mentality? Seems many don't want to think on a LD hike. It's easier to be lazy and have THE MOST IMMEDIATE CONVENIENCE OF A TON OF OVER ANALYZED WATER BETA and ASSUMING WATER SHOULD ALWAYS BE IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO THE TRAIL.

FWIW, on a fall OT west to east thru-hike in a drier yr and at a drier seasonal time of the yr the longest water haul I had without seeing water directly on trail or within 1/4 mile of the trail accessed from lodges, camps, etc was 11 miles. Certainly doable when some basic knowledge is applied as PCT, CDT, and AZT thru-hikers amply demonstrate! Seems these other hikers are doing OK.

Many people that thru hike it cache food and water.

Funny I don't know of any. I certainly didn't cache food or water. Perhaps some do though. It's not a necessity IMHO when the available OT resupply beta and Tim Ernst's well done OT Guidebook and possibly one of the FREE OT Topos are reviewed. Oops, that gets back to thinking on a hike. Can't have that?


Hot, humid much of yr, bugs.

Umm, OT has a long thru-hike window of opportunity possibly all 12 months. Arkansas does have seasonal changes. Don't hike during the most humid hottest parts of the yr. Umm, it's a tactic applied on the AT not to generally thru-hike it during winter, no? It's a tactic applied by a large majority of AZT thru and section hikes not to hike in the hottest summer months, no? Bugs? Don't hikers avoid or address insects like hoards of biting black flies in Maine and Vermont going SOBO or mosquitos in PA, NJ,and NY on the AT? What, can't also do that on the OT now?

A lot fewer people too.

ABSOLUTELY. Saw no other OT thru-hiker on my OT thru-hike. Met lots of great OT hikers though MANY from Arkansas and Missouri. Nice folks!
Stayed at about 5 or 6 of the very nicely built supportive Friends of the Ouachita Trail(FOOT) folk's shelters though ALWAYS having the entire shelter to myself. NEVER saw a rat or mouse either? Two new shelters were built since I thru-hiked the OT too with 9 so far and three more planned taking it up to 12 NEW FRESH CLEAN OT SHELTERS making a OT thruhike capable of being completed by staying in a shelter and/or campground EACH NIGHT. THANK YOU FOOT and PEOPLE OF ARKANSAS! These folks are investing so WE have opps to hike in different places. http://friendsot.org/ http://friendsot.org/about_the_trail/trail-shelter-project/

You can unexpectedly find sections closed by forest service doing controlled burns, etc. You need to check for these,things ahead of time.

Maybe so. I NEVER encountered having to deal with hiking around a controlled burn or forest fire on the OT like I have several times in Cali on the PCT, Sierras, etc.

In,a nutshell, it is not quite as simple or reliable as AT.

It seems that way but with some due diligence, thinking, and reducing the unfamiliar it's NOT as difficult to hike the OT or for that matter the Ozark Highlands Tr as one might initially perceive. Do NOT believe all the negative hype.

I think we basically agree. Ive hiked the main 165 mi portion of OHT, and a small part of OT.

But again, AT is safe, heavily used, popular, reliable , always open and maintained, reliable water at shelters, requires no thought, and is amenable to hiking in warm weather. No hazardous creek crossings on most of it. Bigger mountains and more scenic vistas. Its logistically simple.

Other trails are less used, lower ekevation, more solitary, conditions are more variable, good recent beta is harder to find, and have uncertainties like swollen impassable creeks after rain. More like what the AT used to be IMO. The OHT starts off , and ends with fords, that alone discourages many. Fords can be impassable after rain. These things are positive to me. Its what hiking is about. To many, its uncertainty and they dont like that.

Most people prefer the first obviously. Its not that other trails have negatives, its that the AT has positives.

RockDoc
12-26-2015, 17:14
The bubble is real. My friend and I hiked VA SOBO in April-May in 2010, and as the numbers of NOBO's mounted we started counting them daily. Many days were 30-40, then we counted 85 in one day, north of Grayson Highlands. That was the middle of the bubble, over 600 miles north of Springer Mtn (so a lot of people had already dropped off).
I expect that now it might exceed 100 NOBOs in a day. Lots of luck getting space in a shelter if you drag in late. You won't even find space to tent.

grandpa denny
12-26-2015, 17:35
Hi. I pitched in the shelters from Katahdin to Rt.2 in Goreham last month. November 3 to December 9. I met a high school class below Goose Eye, and 'The Nobozos' in The Crockers (I hope they made it), and three hunters crossing Mary Jo Road in the 100 Mile Wilderness.

I read bits of the shelter logs. What a completely different experience they were having only six weeks earlier, comparing trail running shoes, and reporting sitings of, I kid you not, 'The Night Hiking Bitches'. I particularly loved Tintin's entry, 'I smell horrendous!'. Where they dealt with high water fords, I faced some ice glazed rocks but lower water. It was wonderful to see out to distant mountains with the leaves off the trees. Sometimes I waded, ankle deep, through leaves covering the trail.......You've been there..outside the bubble.

Best Wishes for 2016 Grandpa Denny

lkmi
12-26-2015, 17:54
Want to help out?

1. Volunteer to do trail maintenance or on other ATC volunteer activities


This. x1000.
I am awed by the dedication by members of clubs that maintain the trail. And they welcome assistance - for example, the TEHCC (territory: Sam's Gap north to Damascus) have monthly "hiking with tools" events, for people of all abilities.

If you hike the AT, please contact one of the maintaining groups and offer your services.
When it comes down to it, helping clear a blowdown or painting a blaze is a lot more useful to hikers than one meal...

handlebar
12-26-2015, 22:10
^^^....or if you can't carve out a whole week, check out the possibility to volunteer for trail work on some of the more obscure trails. The North Country Trail has chapters in NY, PA, MI, MN, ND. The Keystone Trail Association in PA has daylong, weeklong and weekend trail maintenance events. Beyond the iconic triple crown trails (AT, PCT, CDT), there are many, many short, medium, and long trails throughout the country with trail maintenance clubs that will welcome a helping hand.

handlebar
12-26-2015, 22:37
I tend to agree that the iconic trails, the AT and PCT, in particular, are aurrently ttracting more and more hikers in no small part due to the publicity of the movies that feature them. This happened shortly after A Walk in the Woods was published as a book. However, if you look at the demographics of the hikers on the AT, there's a good chance that the "bubble" will deflate naturally---at least to the extent that it is composed of thru hikers. I found that thru hikers were mostly either 20-something transitioning toward careers or folks transitioning from working life to retirement with a sprinkling of military veterans either retiring after 20+ years or returning from our recent wars and transitioning to civilian life. The people I see on the trail, both younger and older, are overwhelmingly white, but projections are that white, non-Latino people will be in the minority by mid-century. The baby boom transitioning to retirement is reaching its maximum so that part. of the bubble will be decreasing. Add the concentration of our population in very large urban areas where children grow up in urban areas where the "outdoors" they know is artificial parks and virtual environments compete for the time of everyone. If anything, I wonder if there will be a consensus that the natural world will be worth protecting.

Mags
12-26-2015, 23:05
IThe people I see on the trail, both younger and older, are overwhelmingly white,

No doubt, but the more telling statistic is that LD hikers, and the base for that type of recreation in general, are college educated and come from affluent backgrounds. (I could look up the statistics again, but I am lazy tonight. :) )

I do not suspect that aspect (affluent, college educated) will change regardless of the ethnic background of a person.

OTOH...




Add the concentration of our population in very large urban areas where children grow up in urban areas where the "outdoors" they know is artificial parks and virtual environments compete for the time of everyone. If anything, I wonder if there will be a consensus that the natural world will be worth protecting


Sadly, that very well may be true.

Dogwood
12-27-2015, 02:39
I'm a believer in cultivating a connection with Nature and the outdoors from a young age to develop people into hikers and lifelong Nature and outdoors loving people. These people, including LD hikers, don't just all fall out of the sky or are assembly lined automatically out of Caucasian more affluent college educated systems. WE can influence this development. There is so much opportunity in this area that isn't being taken advantage of. The more this gets rolling I believe the more you'll see LD hiking diversity increase. There are individuals and groups doing just this! The question then becomes "if you truly care about Nature as a whole will your convictions extend to bring about this change?"

I don't want to get too soap boxy but if societies are based around the mistaken human centric theory that humans are separate from Nature not recognizing man is an interconnected part of Nature seeing it as commodity rather than a community to which we all belong it WILL eventually result in a consensus that the natural world will (NOT) be worth protecting. Oh, there will be some token pockets of the natural non man made world but it will only be at humanities convenience.

When societies are based on the notion that absolute competition(survival of the fittest)/selfishness defines all of evolutionary advancement this too will result in the demise of Nature.

Oslohiker
12-27-2015, 09:08
Will the bubble burst? Probably not. The traditional early April (+/-) start is still the best time for weather. Spring in the south and fall in the north. It really doesn't get any better then that and missing either one (or worse, both) is a shame.

Dosen't it get extremely hot in the middle? Isen't it wise to avoid that?
To me it seem wise to start in February, and avoid the long green tunnel for as long as possible, to get as much views as possible. And avoid the heat for as long as possible when getting further north. Then take a few weeks off when the black flies comes out, before heading into the Whites. If you don't mind cold weather hiking, then you avoid everything else that is bad, right? No, not everything has opened up (i.e. hostels) in the beginning of the trail, but that seem to me as a small price to pay, if any at all.

Oslohiker
12-27-2015, 09:35
Its my opinion it shouldnt be performed at all . Feeding hikers isnt trail magic, its stupid. People with plenty of money, on vacation, and morons want to feed them.

Want to do something magical, feed homeless people that need it.

Watching "a million" thru-hike videos on youtube, it seems like nothing boosts the moral more than finding trail magic. Or maybe you are so hard core that you never get lows on the trail? That does not come across as believable to me. 3 out of 4 don't finish? How high do you want that number? Calling kind people using their own assets for morons? Well, well... Have it ever crossed your mind that kind people may be kind elsewhere, and also help people that are struggling in life?

fiddlehead
12-27-2015, 11:03
Seems quite simple to me.
You either enjoy the social hiking of the "bubble", or you do a SOBO.

Traveler
12-27-2015, 12:26
Watching "a million" thru-hike videos on youtube, it seems like nothing boosts the moral more than finding trail magic. Or maybe you are so hard core that you never get lows on the trail? That does not come across as believable to me. 3 out of 4 don't finish? How high do you want that number? Calling kind people using their own assets for morons? Well, well... Have it ever crossed your mind that kind people may be kind elsewhere, and also help people that are struggling in life?

You may be confusing Trail Magic with Hiker Feeds. Trail magic is pretty simple and usually shows up just in time when you need/want something. A snickers offered by a passer by, a dry towel to use, cold water or coke's, a ride into town offered by a day hiker, that kind of thing. Hiker feeds are not trail magic per se and are a different kind of thing. Many are getting to the point people can start depending on them being in certain places. It seems these feeds are more of a southern trail thing. In the northern reaches of the AT (North of the Hudson River), its rare to see them. Trail magic happens, but its on a smaller, less pronounced scale, much as minor miracles typically are.

There is little magic in planned hiker feeds and what Muddy said about them is pretty accurate. Dollars spent on feeding people on vacation who are well provisioned doesn't do as much as feeding those who have no food and are not on vacation. It really comes down to what you are wanting to spend your time and money on for those preparing it.

As an aside, 3 out of 4 don't finish the trail for reasons that have little to nothing to do with passing through a half dozen hiker feeds, those only carries people to the next shelter or campsite. I can pretty much guarantee most hikers will have difficulty remembering the 4th feed stop, but they will recall the magic of a child offering a snickers bar forever.

Oslohiker
12-27-2015, 12:45
You may be confusing Trail Magic with Hiker Feeds. Trail magic is pretty simple and usually shows up just in time when you need/want something. A snickers offered by a passer by, a dry towel to use, cold water or coke's, a ride into town offered by a day hiker, that kind of thing. Hiker feeds are not trail magic per se and are a different kind of thing. Many are getting to the point people can start depending on them being in certain places. It seems these feeds are more of a southern trail thing. In the northern reaches of the AT (North of the Hudson River), its rare to see them. Trail magic happens, but its on a smaller, less pronounced scale, much as minor miracles typically are.

There is little magic in planned hiker feeds and what Muddy said about them is pretty accurate. Dollars spent on feeding people on vacation who are well provisioned doesn't do as much as feeding those who have no food and are not on vacation. It really comes down to what you are wanting to spend your time and money on for those preparing it.

As an aside, 3 out of 4 don't finish the trail for reasons that have little to nothing to do with passing through a half dozen hiker feeds, those only carries people to the next shelter or campsite. I can pretty much guarantee most hikers will have difficulty remembering the 4th feed stop, but they will recall the magic of a child offering a snickers bar forever.

No, I was not confusing Trail Magic with Hiker Feeds because MuddyWaters reply was to the following: "Its my opinion (which don't count for didly), that trail magic should only be performed after the GSMNP, I think that would help weed out a good bit early on.", by Gambit McCrae.

I think motivation is important on a thru-hike of this magnitude, and experiences like this I think would keep some in the game. How many, I don't know.

Dogwood
12-27-2015, 14:07
So, in the end after all the hype about how difficult the AT is to thru-hike, rightly deserving in some aspects, it is also incredibly EASY in other aspects. The AT is intentionally MADE even easier therefore it it contributes further to a heavier usage.

Traillium
12-27-2015, 15:06
Well said, Dogwood! I spent my career on this, and continue to do so.


Bruce Traillium

lemon b
12-27-2015, 15:20
Just not interested in hiking when a trail is crowded. Never had been never will. Have trips pretty well timed at my age. The crowds on the AT started to get unbearable at certain times back in the mid 80's. Now its to the point I do not ever consider crowd walking as hiking. We have a right to define whats true hiking and whats a social event. I do not go into the woods for social events. No I do not see the AT becoming anything more than a social event. Been that way a long time and is not going to change.

Traveler
12-27-2015, 17:05
No, I was not confusing Trail Magic with Hiker Feeds because MuddyWaters reply was to the following: "Its my opinion (which don't count for didly), that trail magic should only be performed after the GSMNP, I think that would help weed out a good bit early on.", by Gambit McCrae.

I think motivation is important on a thru-hike of this magnitude, and experiences like this I think would keep some in the game. How many, I don't know.

And much like Muddy, thats your opinion!

MuddyWaters
12-27-2015, 19:30
Heres an example of how wrong things often turn out on less travelled and maintained trails. The AT is mostly . ....trouble free...by comparison.

http://www.ballou.us/OHT2009/

Malto
12-27-2015, 22:15
Seems quite simple to me.
You either enjoy the social hiking of the "bubble", or you do a SOBO.

Or you hike it outside the traditional season. A mid May NoBo or my ideal AT hike (mid Sept SoBo) will avoid the hordes. Or hike another trail. I just spent 42 mile completely people free on the Black Forest Trail in PA. There are many alternatives to the cook cutter April NoBo start.

fiddlehead
12-27-2015, 22:43
I agree, my last NOBO hike of the AT, I started May 9.
Didn't hit the bubble till Maine.

But, the SOBO is no bubble.

I also agree on other trails.
But, just had a friend tell me, he doesn't care about the negatives, just wants to hike the AT.
Agreed a SOBO would be better.

Dogwood
12-27-2015, 22:47
Seems quite simple to me.
You either enjoy the social hiking of the "bubble", or you do a SOBO.

Well, the ATC does a good job of dissuading the SOBO itinerary while pumping up their Alternative itineraries.

Compare how they phrase NOBO, Alt's, and SOBO itineraries. Would like the ATC to makes one or two savvy logistical recs on how to approach a SOBO as an inexperienced LD hiker as this defines the majority of AT thru-hikers particularly as they rec this itinerary for only "experienced and fit" hikers. They did this with their Alternative Thru-hiking itineraries.

Dogwood
12-27-2015, 22:47
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/home/explore-the-trail/thru-hiking/southbound

JumpMaster Blaster
12-30-2015, 17:52
Yes.

Hawk Mountain Shelter April 9, 2015. I wrote in my blog for that day: "At 8 there were 38 tents and at least 55 people at the shelter. We have 3 fires going and about 4 separate groups hanging out."

A few days later we were camped just north of Low Gap shelter and another hiker came by and said that the shelter was packed and no place to camp. I believe them.

WOW. I JUST read that in your blog today. Great writing by the way!

JumpMaster Blaster
12-30-2015, 17:54
Hell I've heard stories of over mountain being plum full before, that could be premeditated though due to trail magic, double or triple large groups.

Its my opinion (which don't count for didly), that trail magic should only be performed after the GSMNP, I think that would help weed out a good bit early on.

At Overmountain this June we had at least 40 people, but 2/3 were out tenting.

soumodeler
12-30-2015, 18:15
WOW. I JUST read that in your blog today. Great writing by the way!

Thanks. I only wish I could have written more!

Alligator
12-31-2015, 01:34
The bubble is real. My friend and I hiked VA SOBO in April-May in 2010, and as the numbers of NOBO's mounted we started counting them daily. Many days were 30-40, then we counted 85 in one day, north of Grayson Highlands. That was the middle of the bubble, over 600 miles north of Springer Mtn (so a lot of people had already dropped off).
I expect that now it might exceed 100 NOBOs in a day. Lots of luck getting space in a shelter if you drag in late. You won't even find space to tent.Your dates and locations are not specific but I would hazard a guess that this concentration of hikers is influenced by Trail Days in Damascus. Also, past thruhikers and 2000 milers sometimes hike into and out of trail days. Just something to think about, might not have all been current thruhikers you passed in Grayson Highlands.