Down and moisture: Much Ado About Nothing

[Venchka]

Common Myths:
Down is useless and/or dangerous if wet.
Down sleeping bags must never touch the sides of your shelter for fear of coming into contact with condensation.

Sound familiar, hey?

Carefully read one persons efforts to render a down top quilt useless with rain and a garden hose.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/showthread.php/110663-Accidentally-got-some-heavy-rains-on-my-Down-quilts-last-night/page2?highlight=garden+hose

Decide for yourself.

Wayne

[squeezebox]

If you were about to wash it anyway it would be a good experiment.

[QiWiz]

I have to say that I once believed the myth and avoided down in favor of synthetics. I found that the synthetic insulation would gradually lose loft and become less good as an insulator. In contrast, good down with good care retains its loft for many nights/years on trail. I now use nothing but down. Just sayin'

[tflaris]

What type of quilt was it? Down or synthetic down or treated down?


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

[Tipi Walter]

Common Myths:

Down sleeping bags must never touch the sides of your shelter for fear of coming into contact with condensation.

Wayne

It's one of my camping rules and it still holds true: No part of your down sleeping bag should touch the wall of your tent whether single or double wall.

Why? Because a wet inner tent wall will wet a sleeping bag shell. A single wall shelter is of course much worse than a double wall tent. Perfect proof of this came to me on my last trip---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-JJswqpq/0/L/TRIP%20170%20015-L.jpg
This was taken on a recent December trip. It shows my silnylon tent fly condensating and dropping its water load onto the outside of my inner tent canopy---which otherwise (in a single wall) would've dropped all over me and my gear, but instead drained down the outside of the inner tent. Lesson Learned: Never use a single wall tent. I know, blasphemy nowadays with ULers who love their single wall tents.

But fact is, if conditions are right such condensation will happen. Not every night and maybe not even during a whole trip, but it will happen and depend on it. And if it happens on Day 4 of a trip and you have 12 more days of lousy conditions, well, your bag will never dry out.

Point is, no part of your sleeping bag should touch any tent fabric if you want to keep your bag shell dry. This is most esp true for the footbox of your down bag which often rubs up against the bottom of the tent due either to tent shortness or to the angled end wall of your tent.

[sliverstorm]

Can't say it isn't interesting, but at the same time my down garments always come out of the washing machine a sad, lumpy, flat mess. I suppose I could put one on next time.

As for coming in contact with the side of the tent, I think that's more about keeping your gear dry on a long trip- preventing gradual buildup of moisture, and/or mold and mildew. Or, the other one that would concern me, is my sleeping bag freezing after I stuffed it into my pack.

[sliverstorm]

Lesson Learned: Never use a single wall tent. I know, blasphemy nowadays with ULers who love their single wall tents.

I wouldn't go that far! Well, maybe if you're talking specifically about backpacking. I hear they work fine when all the water is frozen ;)

[Venchka]

What type of quilt was it? Down or synthetic down or treated down?


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed that is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead, Anthropologist

I don't think that you read the whole story.
From Post #1 in the link above:

The top quilt is NOT made with water resistant down and was completely exposed hanging from the ridgeline. It was "upside down" so that the footbox was able to catch the rain inside.
There was at least 1/2 cup of water in the footbox at 8:30 AM
I poured it out and checked the loft. The footbox was still quite puffy.
The rest of the quilt had respectable loft. I believe the insulation qualities were mostly intact.
It seems that the shell was wet, but the down had not suffered much.


Read the follow up test. With a garden hose.


Hosed into the footbox like it was on fire.

Wayne

[George]

the critical thing is not to stuff a down bag that is more than slightly damp - that is when the down gets wadded up and very difficult to dry, I have dried one in the backcountry - took 2 days in the sun, fluffing and pulling apart the lumps

[MuddyWaters]

Down most certainly is useless if its wet.
Even damp it loses a lot of loft and becomes much less useful.

However, as anyone that has washed a sleeping bag in a tub knows, a bag with tight downproof fabric and DWR finish is extremely difficult to wet out. You can submerge a down bag in a stuffsack, and it will pop to the surface 99% dry. Wet fabric becomes airtight, and if air cant get out, water cant get in. It is a real chore to get a bag totally wet. A sleeping bag floats around in a bathtub barely getting wet. A cheap bag without dwr finish, may fare much worse .

But, slowly over hours small amounts of water can definitely seep in if you are touching walls, lying in puddle on floor, etc.

[Just Bill]

I'd like to know what shell is on that Rab bag... Looks like a hell of a DWR or even a WPB.

That said- not really disputing the overall point. With a good shell it's hard to violently wet a bag.

It's very easy over a damp week though to lose a decent bit of loft to ambient moisture... that's a bigger problem than a garden hose really. One I'm guessing Tipi runs into often enough in his area.
Not a factor really out west...

Synthetics are not as durable... a typical continuous filament bag will be 5-10* cooler after a season of hard use (100-200 nights).
I'm encouraged by the performance of PL Gold in this regard... but haven't seen enough real world testing to say with confidence the problem is solved. Though it is improved.

No silver bullet either way... but the down issue is a bit overblown overall.

[garlic08]

I have to say that I once believed the myth and avoided down in favor of synthetics. I found that the synthetic insulation would gradually lose loft and become less good as an insulator. In contrast, good down with good care retains its loft for many nights/years on trail. I now use nothing but down. Just sayin'

Same experience here.

My experience with down in extreme moisture (100% condensing humidity and rain all day, every day) is that after four or five nights, I really need, in descending order of preference: a couple of hours of sunshine, mechanical heat, or hours with a campfire.

A hose or bathtub is one thing, days and nights of fog, rain, perspiration and respiration is another.

[capehiker]

Sometimes I feel like there is this idea that down melts apart like toilet paper as soon as water hits it. Two months ago I woke up to my feet/footbox in a 1/2" puddle of rain and was snug as a bug and nice and dry. I certainly didn't intend to have this happen but I do have the DWR style down bags so wasn't surprised my bag was dry on the inside. I would like to think that common sense tells us regardless of down or synthetic, we should take precautions to protect our gear. In my instance, I thought I had, but forces of nature happened and my gear held out.

[Tipi Walter]

I agree with most of the sentiments so expressed. In my opinion here is how it works:

You get a wonderful down bag rated to 0F with 850 fill and it's bone dry at home and fully lofted. It even keeps you warm at night in the backyard at 0F.

Then you take this awesome bag out on a, let's say, 21 day winter trip with sleet and snow and some sunshine. After 5 days in the snow the bag stuffs much smaller because it's moist with air humidity, therefore it's not bone dry like at home and it doesn't have the full loft of home and so of course it will not keep you as warm on that 0F night.

This is why winter backpackers carry overkill down bags rated to -15F or -20F in order to be comfy at 0F---all because the bag will lose some of its loft no matter how careful you are---due to winter air humidity. By Day 18 of the trip you could be camping in a cold wind at 6,000 feet and it's a bone dry wind which allows the bag to regain its lost loft and everything is back to normal.

But you cannot depend on bone dry conditions and must account for loss of loft and loss of temp rating.

The best way to tell, other than sleeping cold at night, is to stuff your sleeping bag at home in its sack (I use a 35 liter silnylon stuff sack) and the energy it takes to get it all stuffed properly. Then later during the trip stuff the same bag in the same sack and notice how much easier and how much smaller the overall package becomes---all due to high air humidity and its relationship to goose down.

[The Solemates]

I usually keep my wet socks on when climbing into my down bag. In the morning they are as dry as can be! Of course the moisture went into the down. I've never had trouble from this even in the coldest of temps. Conversely, if I take my socks off then my feet stay cold all night and then I get to put wet socks back on in the morning!

[Malto]

I agree with most of the sentiments so expressed. In my opinion here is how it works:

You get a wonderful down bag rated to 0F with 850 fill and it's bone dry at home and fully lofted. It even keeps you warm at night in the backyard at 0F.

Then you take this awesome bag out on a, let's say, 21 day winter trip with sleet and snow and some sunshine. After 5 days in the snow the bag stuffs much smaller because it's moist with air humidity, therefore it's not bone dry like at home and it doesn't have the full loft of home and so of course it will not keep you as warm on that 0F night.

This is why winter backpackers carry overkill down bags rated to -15F or -20F in order to be comfy at 0F---all because the bag will lose some of its loft no matter how careful you are---due to winter air humidity. By Day 18 of the trip you could be camping in a cold wind at 6,000 feet and it's a bone dry wind which allows the bag to regain its lost loft and everything is back to normal.

But you cannot depend on bone dry conditions and must account for loss of loft and loss of temp rating.

The best way to tell, other than sleeping cold at night, is to stuff your sleeping bag at home in its sack (I use a 35 liter silnylon stuff sack) and the energy it takes to get it all stuffed properly. Then later during the trip stuff the same bag in the same sack and notice how much easier and how much smaller the overall package becomes---all due to high air humidity and its relationship to goose down.

I will take your word on everything you have said above. I can count on one hand how many people on this site are doing 21 day trips without some sort of resupply. For the rest of the 99.99% of the folks they will not have the same experiences.

Also, could the massive condensation you experienced have anything to do with the three zeros you did on that trip. Again, how many people are going to spend three straight days in a tent. For those 99.99% of the people using a single wall tent would have a far different result.

[Wise Old Owl]

Common Myths:
Down is useless and/or dangerous if wet.
Sound familiar, hey?

Decide for yourself.

Wayne

The mistake here is the thought one's Down needs to get wet from rain. Although the writer points out his top quilt was inside out and "untreated" DWR it held water in the footbox - which tells me it is treated, otherwise it would have soaked the footbox.

You can't get 8 miles at 32° hiking in a untreated down jacket. The perspiration from your core will soak it. Not a myth - a fact I learned the hard way. But as long as you are moving soaked or not - you will be alive. With no ability to get it dry if you stop. Hense most of us hike in Polartec a proven technology used by Marines in Afghanistan.

Wayne do not make the mistake that one post on the internet must be true. A lot on Hammock Forums is basement made by good people using the best materials. Should you buy something I suggest you test it in your backyard before deciding if it is a myth or a fact.

Thanks for finding that interesting thread.

[Wise Old Owl]

I usually keep my wet socks on when climbing into my down bag. In the morning they are as dry as can be! Of course the moisture went into the down. I've never had trouble from this even in the coldest of temps. Conversely, if I take my socks off then my feet stay cold all night and then I get to put wet socks back on in the morning!

My dad got me into a good habit of pulling the wet ones off and swapping with dry ones each night, hung on the hammock and in low humidity they would be dry as well by morning. If not hung on the backpack on the outside. They wood be dry by next camp. On a 70-80 miler I had three pairs of tech socks and did very well. I noticed the older scouts did the same.

[The Solemates]

My dad got me into a good habit of pulling the wet ones off and swapping with dry ones each night, hung on the hammock and in low humidity they would be dry as well by morning. If not hung on the backpack on the outside. They wood be dry by next camp. On a 70-80 miler I had three pairs of tech socks and did very well. I noticed the older scouts did the same.

Short of the sleep with them in method I have never been successful at having dry socks in the morning no matter what method I've tried unless I'm hiking in the southwest, which ain't that often.

[Wise Old Owl]

Short of the sleep with them in method I have never been successful at having dry socks in the morning no matter what method I've tried unless I'm hiking in the southwest, which ain't that often.



Sorry to hear this...No biggie... I have hiked in the southwest. Drop some Iron sock heaters in there.

[Venchka]

Good points well taken and noted. Thanks to all. Still learning after all these years.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[MuddyWaters]

My dad got me into a good habit of pulling the wet ones off and swapping with dry ones each night, hung on the hammock and in low humidity they would be dry as well by morning. If not hung on the backpack on the outside. They wood be dry by next camp. On a 70-80 miler I had three pairs of tech socks and did very well. I noticed the older scouts did the same.


My experience on the AT is that they will often be wetter in morning than when you hung them up.

I stick them under my top and leave the neck of my quilt loose, if its not too cold. They are dry in morning

[Dogwood]

This thread is so wrong. So many half truths or incomplete faulty assumptions offered.

The vid demonstrates the effectiveness of a high quality shell face fabric working as it was originally intended in a RAB down quilt quite possibly in the RAB Infinity Series line. It's a Pertex Quantum with DWR or Pertex Quantum GL shell. Pertex Quantum GL is currently being used by RAB in its top of the line bags. Good stuff.

By using top tier fabric(s) with superior DWR's that offer superior water resistance, breathability, etc characteristics it contributes to protection of the loft/warmth desired in conditions mountaineers, climbers, backpackers, etc often face.

How can anyone talk about down and it's response to moisture in the context of being used in a quilt, sleeping bag, or jacket and not include mentioning shell fabric characteristics is beyond me.

[George]

and this is different than any other thread? ….

[George]

and this is different than any other thread? ….

[adamfbomb]

Having had a down bag that absorbed a lot of condensation on the footbox, I would frequently wake up with cold feet in the mornings. I still wouldn't consider a synthetic bag over down, they are heavy!!

[colorado_rob]

This thread is so wrong. So many half truths or incomplete faulty assumptions offered.

The vid demonstrates the effectiveness of a high quality shell face fabric working as it was originally intended in a RAB down quilt quite possibly in the RAB Infinity Series line. It's a Pertex Quantum with DWR or Pertex Quantum GL shell. Pertex Quantum GL is currently being used by RAB in its top of the line bags. Good stuff.

By using top tier fabric(s) with superior DWR's that offer superior water resistance, breathability, etc characteristics it contributes to protection of the loft/warmth desired in conditions mountaineers, climbers, backpackers, etc often face.

How can anyone talk about down and it's response to moisture in the context of being used in a quilt, sleeping bag, or jacket and not include mentioning shell fabric characteristics is beyond me.Well DW buddy, with due respect, we are all guilty of this (the incompleteness of our assumptions and experience) all the time, including myself often, and now somewhat, your response. I winter hike/climb all the time, including some very long, 2-3 week non-resupplied deep-winter conditions trips (mostly spring/summer trips, but very, very high...). I have used both a waterproof shell sleeping bag (the -20F Marmot Col) and a much less so bag (the -25F WM Puma, with micro fiber shell). I find that the less waterproof, but much more breatheable shell keeps my down significantly drier overall.
...
My thoughts on the reason: our bodies are basically furnaces that dry out the moisture our bags collect from various sources, like our sweat, contact with frigid tent walls that are full of condensation, and when our clothes are damp. Having a less-waterproof, but more breatheable shell lets our body-furnaces do the job of getting as much moisture as possible "pumped" out of our bags at night. When I carried the Marmot Col, with some sort of miracle waterproof fiber cover, on a high mountain (Aconcagua), my down never seemd to dry out unless I had a nice bright sunny day to do the job. I sold the bag and have been using my WM Puma bag since. the shell of the Puma doesn't have a DWR coating; it is simply a tight weave ("microfiber") that tends to shed liquid water but is a champion of breathing (the Puma is also sold with a "waterproof" shell of some sort).
...
One other point: My Puma does not seem to degrade w.r.t. loft or warmth during these long trips, but I have never done a long winter trip in the damper, eastern US conditions. I have a feeling -30 degrees F on Denali is less cold (more bearable) than 0 degrees in the Tennessee mountains where Tipi frequents!

[Venchka]

This thread is so wrong. So many half truths or incomplete faulty assumptions offered.

The vid demonstrates the effectiveness of a high quality shell face fabric working as it was originally intended in a RAB down quilt quite possibly in the RAB Infinity Series line. It's a Pertex Quantum with DWR or Pertex Quantum GL shell. Pertex Quantum GL is currently being used by RAB in its top of the line bags. Good stuff.

By using top tier fabric(s) with superior DWR's that offer superior water resistance, breathability, etc characteristics it contributes to protection of the loft/warmth desired in conditions mountaineers, climbers, backpackers, etc often face.

How can anyone talk about down and it's response to moisture in the context of being used in a quilt, sleeping bag, or jacket and not include mentioning shell fabric characteristics is beyond me.

That's half the battle. The other half is using a shelter that isn't a condensation machine.
Maybe I've been blessed or maybe I haven't encountered one of Tipi Walter's multi-day rainfall events. Either way, I have owned 3 tents that did not produce any condensation for my sleeping bags to come in contact with. Yes, they were built in the previous century. That may be the reason. My current tent is a single wall design. It does not generate any condensation on the inner surfaces. None. Dry. Bone dry. My feet stay toasty.
Maybe I'll count my blessings and stop lusting for a new tent.

Wayne