View Full Version : GSMNP Itenerary/Reservations
I'm planning to do a section hike of the entire AT thru GSMNP. I would have to make reservations at each campsite/shelter I plan on staying at. My question is: what happens if for whatever reason, i.e. two days in the weather, fatique, terrain, etc. prevents me from making the next reserved campsite and I have to stop and camp at a different one? What would happen if I got caught? How often/likely are meetings/run-ins with park rangers? Are they super-strict or usually lenient when presented with such situations?
Bigben
Since this will be a section hike I recommend calling 865-436-1231 this is the Backcountry Reservation Office for GSMNP. They can give you the info you will need in regards to your questions. This way you will get the right info straight from the Park Service. In my many years of hiking the Smokies I have only seen one ranger on the trail. Last spring I was hiking up Low Gap trail from Cosby campground up to the AT. There was a Ranger up there just checking things out (routine).
Good luck on your hike. The Smokies are a real treat !!!! Great views !!!!
Happy Trails,
Chip;)
smokymtnsteve
12-10-2005, 17:58
technically if you get behind on your schedule you must leave the park..
when I was working as caretaker at Ice h2O shelter back in 2000 I had a section hiker who had started at fontana and was walking to his car in Hot Springs,,,he was exhausted, feet blistered and needed a break,,,he approached me about radioing in an changing his permit..I told him to just not worry about it that he could stay in the caretaker tent if needed and that I had plenty of food and fuel to share for him to rest, the forecasts was for rain and then clearing in a couple days). ( he had his car already in Hot springs and needed to make it there.
but he insisted that he wanted to stay legal...and "demanded" that i call in a try to change the reservation..so I did..
backcountry Hq informed me to tell hiker to stay on his itenerary or leave park,,,they would not change the permit as as they said to room in tricorner knob for the change..
he was listening as I was on the radio and U could see his dejection so I replied to HQ "could U repeat the instructions there is static could copy U"
so they did,,,the "static remained so I still "couldn't" hear them>
the hiker rested a day at ice h20..then continued...wrote me a letter when he finished his hike ...there was PLENTY of room at tricorner and he completed his section hike to Hot Springs.
your chances of meeting a ranger in the backcountry are minimal.
Max Power
12-10-2005, 20:10
That's a tough call. Obviously the rule is their for a reason. They want to know where people are in case things go wrong, and to make sure you aren't at any area that may be closed for bear activity (I guess that's more for the side trails.) They also don't want to overbook shelters... Obviously the later is not a problem at this time of year.
When I did the smokies I didn't keep my schedule and ended up fine. I would hope that a ranger would just give you a warning and understand the situation. This time of year is probably more lax on that rule then if it were summer.
sliderule
12-10-2005, 20:17
technically if you get behind on your schedule you must leave the park..
No, you don't have to leave the park!!! Leave the backcountry, but not the park. You don't need a permit to be in the park, just to stay overnight in the backcountry.
The nice folks at the Backcountry Reservations Office are bureaucrats. They put square pegs in square holes and round pegs in round holes. If there is no room at the inn, there is nothing that they can do.
In my experience, you are unlikely to become subject to an enforcement action if you are making a good faith effort to abide by the rules. For that matter, it's incredibly unlikely that a flagrant violator is going to be caught. I have been hiking in the Smokies for 32 years and have had my permit inspected exactly twice. Once was while standing in the Newfound Gap parking lot waiting on the rest of my group to arrive. The other time was at a campsite.
Interestingly, not all park rangers can issue citations. Only those who are law enforcement qualified can. Ridgerunners cannot, caretakers cannot. Most of the LE rangers are too busy writing speeding tickets on Highway 441 to get out on the trail.
You might also want to consider a thruhiker permit. It will offer more flexibility but does not guarantee a reserved slot in the shelters. Or you could get reservations and carry a thruhiker permit as a backup in case you get off schedule. (I will neither confirm nor deny that I said that.)
smokymtnsteve
12-10-2005, 21:13
ok U got me sliderule..guy didn't have to leave the park just the BC :D
yea U could jist write yoreself a thru hiking permit on the way in,,,
nobody would know nor question it...on the unlikely event that U even encounter a ranger that would be checking.
also in an "emergency" situation do not miss mt cammerer...the fire lookout there could offer "emergency" shelter. ;)
sliderule
12-10-2005, 23:05
also in an "emergency" situation do not miss mt cammerer...the fire lookout there could offer "emergency" shelter. ;)
Just plan on getting there early. Lots of folks get to the fire tower on the way to somewhere, then find that they can't hike another step!!!
Isn't it funny how a great vista can momentarily sap one's strength for further hiking?:banana
Stoker53
12-11-2005, 16:46
This thread brings to mind a situation I had several years back. 7 of us headed out from Cosby CG in mid Jan headed up Snake Den Mtn trail. Plan was to stay at the back country campsite a short distance down the Maddron Bald trail then on the Tri Corner the next day. Ultimate destination was Mt Leconte then out via Alum Cave.
We got a late start ( delayed at Pancake Pantry in G'burg) and by closed ( but not locked gate ) into Cosby CG. Prev night a front had come thru with hvy snow in the higher elevations and bitter cold. It was 6 deg when we left the cars.
About 3/4 of the way to the Maddron Bald tr junct we passed a group of 3 hikers who had pitched their tent in the trail. One of the 3 was sick and vomiting every few minutes.
At dark:30 we were still about an hour's hike from BCCS # 29 and the temp was well below zero and the wind howling. A couple of the guys in our group were having a hard time due to hvy packs, cold and deep snow. I had been breaking trail with my brother and one other guy and I was pretty blasted myself. A quick mtg broke out and we decided that at the 1st flat spot, not in the trail, that could hold 2 tents that we would stop for the night.
We finally found a spot and got the tents up. We cooked in the vestibules using what water we had and crawled into our sleeping bags around 7PM.
A few hours later we were awakened by a ridgerunner intent on issuing us a ticket for not following our permit. He demanded that one of us get out of the tents , so I got dressed and crawled out to talk. He proceeded to read me the riot act RE where we were camped and I explained that due to the situation we , as a group, felt that it would have been dangerous to try to follow our permit agenda.
This made no difference to this guy who continued to beat me up about where we were camped. Finally I told him to shut the F___ up and either write me a ticket or leave us alone. I opted to write the ticket but his ink pen would not work due to the cold.:bse
I got back in my tent and this guy left still ranting as he walked down the trail. I finally got to sleep......about an hour later.
Stoker53
12-11-2005, 16:57
[quote=Stoker53]
Finally I told him to shut the F___ up and either write me a ticket or leave us alone. I opted to write the ticket but his ink pen would not work due to the cold.:bse
To clarify.....He ( ridge runner ) opted to write the ticket. I can't type:mad:
smokymtnsteve
12-11-2005, 18:44
ridgerunners are not allowed to write tickets,,
My itinerary fell apart when I got lost and spent the unexpected night off on LeConte. After that, I was just playing it by ear.
Stoker53
12-11-2005, 19:36
This guy had a ticket book and said he was a ridgerunner. He must have had an attack of Barney Fife syndrom.
Strange indeed.....it was almost 10PM at night and he was a long way from his car. Don't think he was a ghost but you never know.
TwoForty
12-11-2005, 22:50
I think there are 3 backcountry rangers, 2 ridgerunners, and a couple of pig hunters. The pig hunters are nice. One ridge runner was extremely nice and great to talk with, the other one was an ass. I've never meet a backcountry ranger, but I had Barney Fife demand to see my permit (it was legit!) when I was doing nothing but waiting at newfound gap. I suggested he go after the hikers with the dog on the AT, but he didn't want to get his shoes dirty.
On my last day, the jerk ridge runner asked what trail I was heading on and I told him I hadn't made my mind up. He suggested I went where my permit told me to go and gave me the riot act! It was my last day and I had a number of trails to choose from to get back to my car.
I guess some people in authoritactive positions salivate at the tought of catching someone breaking the rules.
sliderule
12-12-2005, 00:13
One ridge runner was extremely nice and great to talk with, the other one was an ass.
The ridge runners have a difficult and often thankless job. They answer to several bosses. They are supposed to educate and inform hikers, promote LNT, encourage compliance with NPS regulations and maintain the trail. And keep those mouldering privies shoveled out. Do that job one time and you will have a new appreciation for ridge runners!!!
Stoker53
12-12-2005, 09:38
The ridge runners have a difficult and often thankless job. They answer to several bosses. They are supposed to educate and inform hikers, promote LNT, encourage compliance with NPS regulations and maintain the trail. And keep those mouldering privies shoveled out. Do that job one time and you will have a new appreciation for ridge runners!!!
SlideR....I totally agree that they have a difficult and thankless job. However in my case I will not accept rude Barney Fife behavior on the part of this individual no matter how hard his job is. Hope this guy is no longer working as a ridge runner. He was not suited for the job and had the potential to give the rest of his coworkers a bad name. Not a good thing.......
sliderule
12-12-2005, 10:40
Hope this guy is no longer working as a ridge runner. He was not suited for the job and had the potential to give the rest of his coworkers a bad name. Not a good thing.......
Sometimes it's hard to tell the "real" ridge runners from the imposters. Several years ago there was a "self appointed" ridge runner who patrolled the AT in the Smokies. Evidently he had done some volunteer work for the NPS, kept the uniform when his job was over, and kept on volunteering on his own terms.
Thanks for all the input. How many people "break the law" by just filling out a thru-hiker self registration permit? I realize GSMNP defines thru-hiker as one starting and/or finishing their trip 50 miles before or after GSMNP. How do they know? I first thought if you're clean looking you would stick out when registering, but who's to say you didn't take a zero day in Fontana Village or somewhere else, get cleaned up and resupplied the day before? How would/could they catch you? Even if they saw you get into a shuttle or cab right past Davenport, how could they dispute you just telling them "Ten days in the Smokies kicked my butt and I need a town day before continuing on." Does anyone know of someone who got busted doing this, and how much was the ticket?
I fully realize this is wrong and I don't plan on doing it. If everybody did it, the park would probably suffer. Ultimately, rules are there for a reason, and reasonable people should try to follow them. Talk to me.
Bigben
Gray Blazer
12-12-2005, 12:46
I don't know if he's still there, but, Bob the ridge runner rocks. he was friendly, full of info (he told me Mt Cammerer Tower was a good place to spend the night, altho I would not want to get caught there) and he even painted an official white blaze on my day pack.
Anyway, Big Ben , I don't know the answers to your questions. I don't think they will lock you up and throw away the key. They have to catch you first.
sliderule
12-12-2005, 21:59
How many people "break the law" by just filling out a thru-hiker self registration permit?
Does anyone know of someone who got busted doing this, and how much was the ticket?
There are plenty of folks who have no permit at all. In addition to that, every legitimate thru hiker who leaves the AT invalidates his permit. But the fact is that the majority of thru hikers leave the trail and spend a night or two (or three or four) in Gatlinburg. And they don't seem to be getting "busted" for doing so.
The going rate for overnight camping without a permit seems to be $150 per person. The NPS says that it can be as much as $500, but that must be for repeat offenders.
When I did my Smokies hike in October I had called in and gotten a permit for 3 hikers for 5 days including campground 84 for a friday night.
Turns out our 3rd hiker couldn't make it, so I called back the day before we left and changed it to 2 hikers. The ranger read back my itinerary to verify that all was correct.
When we reached 84 that friday around 5:30pm we were surprised to find it closed due to bear activity. Being almost dark we stayed there anyway.
Not only had the backcountry office given me a permit for a closed campground, they didn't catch it when I called in again. I wonder what a ranger would've said if they'd "caught" us.
sliderule
12-12-2005, 22:44
Not only had the backcountry office given me a permit for a closed campground, they didn't catch it when I called in again.
Is it possible that the campsite was not closed until after you began your hike? Bear activity is a bit unpredictable. Maybe the site was in fact open when you called.
So when/where does one get a 'thruhiker' permit?
smokymtnsteve
12-13-2005, 02:31
So when/where does one get a 'thruhiker' permit?
WHICH direction will U B traveling from??
if coming in from the south and fontana U can simply pick up a permit at the fontana hilton shelter, self service,,,just get a permit and write thru hiker on it,
It has been my experience that when the shelters fill up people just pitch their tents, so if you cant make your itinerary don’t sweat it. In the unlikely event you get ticketed, you pay the fine and live to hike another day. Here’s an even better idea. Go tell your story to the judge and I would bet money that he will rule in your favor.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2005, 21:35
It has been my experience that when the shelters fill up people just pitch their tents, so if you cant make your itinerary don’t sweat it. In the unlikely event you get ticketed, you pay the fine and live to hike another day. Here’s an even better idea. Go tell your story to the judge and I would bet money that he will rule in your favor.
Stix is correct. The permit system is a klustrphk. Just get a permit and say you're a thru-hiker.
sliderule
12-13-2005, 21:45
Stix is correct. The permit system is a klustrphk.
The "system" operates just fine. It's the people who elect to operate outside the system that are the problem.
Lone Wolf
12-13-2005, 21:46
Your opinion.
smokymtnsteve
12-13-2005, 23:30
The "system" operates just fine. It's the people who elect to operate outside the system that are the problem.
Having been a volunteer for the NPS within the GSM I can assure U the system does not operate just fine,,,the longer I worked inside the system and saw all the BS the less respect I have for it.
Pedaling Fool
12-13-2005, 23:57
I will be thru-hiking soon (GA>ME 2006). I expect to go through GSMNP during the first week of April. Other than thru-hikers, how many OVERNIGHT hikers (rough number) can I expect to encounter?
sliderule
12-14-2005, 00:07
Having been a volunteer for the NPS within the GSM I can assure U the system does not operate just fine,,,the longer I worked inside the system and saw all the BS the less respect I have for it.
I have also volunteered in the GSMNP and it is my opinion that the reservation system does work fine. It's the people that don't play by the rules that cause the problems. But that is not the fault of the reservation system. Can you cite one example of how the reservation system itself is faulty?
In my opinion, the current reservation system is a vast improvement over the "old days" when you would have 150 people at a single shelter on a Saturday night.
sliderule
12-14-2005, 00:10
I will be thru-hiking soon (GA>ME 2006). I expect to go through GSMNP during the first week of April. Other than thru-hikers, how many OVERNIGHT hikers (rough number) can I expect to encounter?
Assuming that they all have permits, no more than 10 per shelter per night. Expect half that many on the weekdays.
orangebug
12-14-2005, 11:19
In my spring walks in the Smokies, I see a lot more than 10 per shelter during prime Thru Hiker season, which is also prime Spring Break season. Typically, the flatlanders take the shelter and the real hikers tent. That has also been with a Ridgerunner staying at the shelter. The expectation is that thru hikers are more skilled at LNT and gentle to the grounds, and can teach these skills by example.
SGT Rock
12-14-2005, 12:30
Just use the BMT to go through the Smokies, there are a lot of camps on there that don't require a reservation so you can speed up or slow down as you need and hit the camps as you choose.
sliderule
12-14-2005, 12:31
In my spring walks in the Smokies, I see a lot more than 10 per shelter during prime Thru Hiker season, which is also prime Spring Break season. .
RTFQ. During thru-hiker season, there should never be more than ten non-thru hikers with permits at a shelter. Shelter capacity is generally 12, with two slots held out for thru-hikers. In the past, slots were also held out for the ridgerunner.
Are you likely to encounter hikers without permits and reservations? Sure.
orangebug
12-14-2005, 14:17
RTFQ. During thru-hiker season, there should never be more than ten non-thru hikers with permits at a shelter. Shelter capacity is generally 12, with two slots held out for thru-hikers. In the past, slots were also held out for the ridgerunner.
Are you likely to encounter hikers without permits and reservations? Sure."Should" ain't a real world concept. There "will" be more than are reserved, thru hikers and otherwise. Get used to it, and always carry a shelter of your own, even in the Smokies.
I think the "hold out" concept ended a few years ago, regarding reserved spots for thru hikers.
When we reached 84 that friday around 5:30pm we were surprised to find it closed due to bear activity. Being almost dark we stayed there anyway.
I had a trip planned for early may this year. Due to changes in my hiking buddy's schedule we had to change our hike to a different weekend. So I called the reservation office to reschedule. They thanked me profusely for canceling my previous schedule when calling in the new trip that would occur two weeks later than the first trip I had scheduled. They must not have gotten the first itenerary out of the system because they called to let me know that one of the campsites we were to stay at on our original trip had been closed due to bears. This was no big deal, because our trip was 2 weeks later and we rescheduled everything with no problem. What was interesting though was they called to let me know there was a problem, but if I were following our original itenerary, we would have been on the trail when they called..... Go figure.
Lone Wolf
12-14-2005, 14:45
Like I said, the reservation system is a klustrphk.
the goat
12-14-2005, 14:53
Like I said, the reservation system is a klustrphk.
i agree, there's gotta be a better way.
sliderule
12-14-2005, 14:55
Clearly the Park Service needs to do a better job when it comes to planning and scheduling nuisance bear activity. Maybe they should take some lessons from the folks at Disney World. The bears there alway sing and dance on schedule.
sliderule
12-14-2005, 14:56
Like I said, the reservation system is a klustrphk.
Do you have any constructive recommendations for improvement?
sliderule
12-14-2005, 15:17
What was interesting though was they called to let me know there was a problem, but if I were following our original itenerary, we would have been on the trail when they called..... Go figure.
Some folks these days carry cell phones....Go figure.
Gray Blazer
12-14-2005, 15:32
About bringing your own shelter..... A couple of years ago, my son and I came in to came into tri-corner,GSMNP kind of late. I have this mouse phobia....I don't relish the idea that a mouse may be crawling over me while I'm sleeping, so I announced in front of the other 5 people there that I would be sleeping in my tent. They gave me a look like they were gonna call Smokey the Bear and report me right then and there. There was a sign that said no tents. So, gutless me, I gave in and slept in the shelter. At that altitude the mice aren't so numerous but it still bothered me hearing them scurry around.
About bringing your own shelter..... A couple of years ago, my son and I came in to came into tri-corner,GSMNP kind of late. I have this mouse phobia....I don't relish the idea that a mouse may be crawling over me while I'm sleeping, so I announced in front of the other 5 people there that I would be sleeping in my tent. They gave me a look like they were gonna call Smokey the Bear and report me right then and there. There was a sign that said no tents. So, gutless me, I gave in and slept in the shelter. At that altitude the mice aren't so numerous but it still bothered me hearing them scurry around.
on my daughter's first overnighter ever, we stayed at the mount collins shelter... the mice were out in force... she woke me up at some dark hour to say something had just run over her face, and then she asked about the other skittering noises she was hearing... (mice, overhead) i explained about mice and told her to go back to sleep... she did, no problem...
sliderule
12-14-2005, 17:56
"Should" ain't a real world concept.
I think the "hold out" concept ended a few years ago, regarding reserved spots for thru hikers.
As of today, the NPS (Great Smoky Mountains National Park) is planning to "hold out" four (4) bunks per shelter for thru hikers, starting April 1st and continuing through June 1st.
And that's a real world concept!!!
Rain Man
12-15-2005, 10:50
.... There was a sign that said no tents. So, gutless me, I gave in and slept in the shelter. ...
"Gutless" you? More like "ethical" you! Man-with-CHARACTER you! (Even if forced on you, I guess?) Scrupulous you.
Lying, stealing, ... "cheating" -- they're all part of the same fabric.
So, what you call "gutless," others call having character to do the right thing. Remember, "character" is what you do when no one is watching.
So, good for you, for being "gutless"!
Rain:sunMan
.
Gray Blazer
12-15-2005, 11:35
Thanks, Rain Man....I think....
Some folks these days carry cell phones....Go figure.
True, but most people dont take cell phones into the backcountry. Or maybe they do and I am an outlier.
I agree with you that I cant think up a better system than what is already in place. Even if they didnt call me and we were still planning to go on that original weekend there are other places I can go to find out if trails, campsites or shelters are closed. The GSMNP website is regularly updated with this information. Further they are very good about posting this type of information at the permit/ranger stations.
Unfortunately, I can go through the routine of getting my shelters and campsites reserved and then show up on the day in question to a shelter with 20 people in it because it is raining or it is thru hiker season or its a busy weekend or whatever. Certainly the permit system is a huge improvement over not having any system in place at all. Unfortunately there will always be those who choose not to make reservations and then rely on the goodwill of others to scoot over and make room in the bunk.
Since I am not too fond of crowded shelters, I tend to plan my trips away from the shelters if possible. If not, I plan shelter days away from busy weekends.
CaptChaos
12-16-2005, 00:19
To all of you Merry Xmas. I have really enjoyed this thread, it has been very interesting.
I have only been carded three times in the smokeys and twice it was the same ranger who was having an anal issue. He had carded me me at one of the shelters, Silers Bald I think, stayed the night and then the next morning he left for the next shelter. When I arrived at the next shelter he was there and he wanted to see my permit again. When I objected since he had spent the night in the last shelter with me he got pissed off and he wanted to know if I was carrying a gun in my pack. I was not not and I told him that it was none of his business and that there was no reason for his inquiry. He told me that he could search me if he wanted to and I was lucky that this was going down in front of a couple of other backpackers. I pointed out that he could search me if he could tell me why and that he better have a good reason as my pack was my home. When the other campers suggested the same he dropped it and asked for my permit again. After seeing it he left.
When I complained back at Cades Cove Ranger station they told me that the ranger in question was not well liked and he was given trail duty in order to make him move on. This is the only time in my 10 years that I have ever had a problem with the rangers in our National parks or the Smokies.
I have to let you know that I first went to college to become a park ranger for the NPS but ended up in Data Processing because it paid better. So I am pro NPS but they sure do a lot from time to time to make me thank God that I did not become a Ranger. Their management style and how they care for the parks leave a lot to be desired.
On the issue of missing your schedule, I was going to Spence field and then to Russell Field shelter by myself when I screwed myself up with a major blister on my left heel. I was very new and this was my second time out, I learned two things, you take care of a hot spot when you know its coming, I now wrap my feet in duct tape and no longer have hot spots, and you don't wear bvd's when you backpack. By the time I got to Spence Field a blade of grass on the inside of my thighs would have made me scream. I had a rash that started to blister. I now have a better idea of what jungle rot might be like. I was lucky to be at Spence Field with a follow backpacker who was called "Birdman" from NJ and he doctored me up and fixed my blister on my foot so that I could get off the mtn. Baby powder took care of the rash and the underware came off. I had to spend another day on the trail before I could walk myself out.
I would have paid the fine if I had been given one but there was no way that I was making it off the mtn in my condition. The next morning I left Birdman with extra fuel and food and headed off the trail. He was heading towards The East end of the park.
When I got home I thought that I would call his wife and let her know that I had seen Birdman and that he was doing good. What a surprise when I called and she told me that he was in a hospital in Gatlingburg with a blown disk in his back. He was in his 60's I think. He was found by a Dr. and his hiking partner on the trail close to Clingmans Dome and they got him out and his gear.
99% of the Rangers are going to help you and so will people on the trail. For years I would leave my paperback books in the shelter for the thru hikers to read or use for a fire. I used to leave a couple of cans of SPAM if it was at the end of the season in case someone was in need. But now because of garbage I just hand off food if I find someone and take the rest out with me.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
freefall
02-21-2006, 23:39
I just heard today, from an "AT authority" that the self registration at the Fontana Hilton is no longer there. SO what are we supposed to do to register if it's not. Of course this person would not divulge the answer for free and suggested buying a book I don't need for x dollars.
TwoForty
02-22-2006, 00:11
I just heard today, from an "AT authority" that the self registration at the Fontana Hilton is no longer there. SO what are we supposed to do to register if it's not. Of course this person would not divulge the answer for free and suggested buying a book I don't need for x dollars.
I suppose they could do a self register station at the NOC, but picking it up would be a pain. Where do you register if starting a section hike at the dam?
astrogirl
02-22-2006, 00:21
I just heard today, from an "AT authority" that the self registration at the Fontana Hilton is no longer there. SO what are we supposed to do to register if it's not. Of course this person would not divulge the answer for free and suggested buying a book I don't need for x dollars.
My guide, which shall remain nameless, says Fontana Visitor's Center and an Information stand at the Marina parking lot.
I'm doing GSMNP this year myself. I will qualify for a "legal" thru-hiker permit since I'm doing sufficient mileage on either side of the park. If anyone's a stickler. Ahem.
:D
sliderule
02-22-2006, 00:21
I just heard today, from an "AT authority" that the self registration at the Fontana Hilton is no longer there. SO what are we supposed to do to register if it's not.
Fontana Marina parking lot.
freefall
02-22-2006, 00:46
My guide, which shall remain nameless, says Fontana Visitor's Center and an Information stand at the Marina parking lot.
I'm doing GSMNP this year myself. I will qualify for a "legal" thru-hiker permit since I'm doing sufficient mileage on either side of the park. If anyone's a stickler. Ahem.
:D
Thanks! I figured it had to be a simple solution. Must've overprinted the book this year....."they" are pushing it awful hard.
Max Power
02-22-2006, 01:17
I am planning on being a volunteer ridgerunner for the GSM this summer. Seeing how there doesn't seem to be any current ridgerunners using this site for the GSM, or at least reading this thread, I will try to be a voice for Whiteblaze users to the ATC.
Obviously the prick ridgerunners that have been mentioned are hard for the ATC to control, the ATC probably doesn't even know of these situation since most hikers are too busy to bother complaining. However, the bigger issue is the permit system that is in place which many seem to be complaining about.
My speculation is that there are two main reasons for the permits: Tracking and Safety. These permits tell what shelters are used more often then others, letting the ATC know how to schedule maintenance to the trail, shelters, and privies. In regards to safety, it is my opinion that just filling out a Thru-hiker permit is not the best solution, like many have suggested. There has been many rescues on the trail, and especially in the GSM. These permits help locate those who may be in trouble. If you fill out a generic "thru hike permit" that doesn't give much help to rescuers who may have to find you if you run into a situation. I think SAFETY is the main purpose of permits and they should be viewed as a resource for us hikers.
I don't believe I heard any solutions from those who don't like this system. Are there any other options that I could suggest that may be more reasonable and effective? Anyone... Anyone...
I understand that hiking plans change daily based on your mental and physical conditions. When I did the Smokies I didn't stay on schedule either, but at least I had a ruff itinerary that gave general direction to where I would be. If something was to have happened to me, at least they would of had an idea of where I would be because of my detailed permit, as opposed to a "thru hiker permit."
What I plan on doing as a ridgerunner is what is asked of me by the ATC to help promote, educate, clean, and keep people safe on the trail. If I run into someone who isn't on their scheduled permit, I will understand that this is very common and happens to many hikers. I'll then pull out a blank permit and see if they want to update their plans. Then when I get back to report I can update the permits. That's my solution, any others?
sliderule
02-22-2006, 10:22
I am planning on being a volunteer ridgerunner for the GSM this summer. Seeing how there doesn't seem to be any current ridgerunners using this site for the GSM, or at least reading this thread, I will try to be a voice for Whiteblaze users to the ATC.
May I suggest that you wait until you have been properly indoctrinated as a ridgerunner before you appoint yourself as ATC ambassador. Your comments suggest that your understanding of "who's who" in the GSMNP is somewhat incomplete. The permit/reservation system, for example, is owned and operated by the NPS, not the ATC. And permits go hand in hand with reservations. Except for thru hilers, the permit is not just a piece of paper.
Max Power
02-22-2006, 10:36
Yes the NPS permit system is the NPS', however ridgerunners are asked to check permits so there is a relationship with both organizations. As far as the permits for the parks, I have used them and would call them a piece of paper, if you have a better more descriptive word I would be glad to use it, the point of my post was to help find a solution to what people believe isn't a working system.
I'm just a man who enjoys backpacking and is extremely excited about the new lifestyle I am about to get into. I'm not trying to come across as an "ambassador," just someone who is trying to help.
If you fill out a generic "thru hike permit" that doesn't give much help to rescuers who may have to find you if you run into a situation.
Thru-hikers travel the AT. How hard could it be to find one that's injured and reported? Lost? Has a Smokies/AT thru-hiker ever been seriously lost or just misdirected? Even if they do become lost, a filled out permit is not going to tell you where they are.
My suggestion is to open the shelters to 8 thru-hikers during thru-hiking season, since you know they are going to be there and limit the reservationists to 4. For one, it will cause less stress to an already crowded section of park.
sliderule
02-22-2006, 11:46
As far as the permits for the parks, I have used them and would call them a piece of paper, if you have a better more descriptive word I would be glad to use it, the point of my post was to help find a solution to what people believe isn't a working system.
In order for a permit for a shelter to be valid, the holder (except for thru hikers) must have a reservation for said shelter. So if a hiker gets off his itinerary, you cannot fix the problem by just filling out a fresh form. That is what I meant by the permit being more that a piece of paper.
My opinion is that the reservation system works quite well. The "problem" is that a lot of folks just don't like it. But, in my opinion, it is a vast improvement on the situation which existed previously. During the backpacking "craze" of the 1970's, it was not uncommon to have over 100+ hikers at a shelter.
You are quite correct about the ridgerunner working for both the ATC and the NPS. And like just about any situation where a person has two bosses, friction and frustration follow. You will see what I mean in due time.
when I went thru GSMNP in Sept 05 the permits had been re-located and were 'hidden' behind the showers/restrooms at the dam. This does not mean that this is still where the permits are located :(
Sandy
Lone Wolf
02-22-2006, 20:40
More often than not I hiked thru the park with no permit. No worries.
The "system" operates just fine. It's the people who elect to operate outside the system that are the problem.
From a newbies point of view: It seems that the system is a little too rigid. What if you find an interesting side trail? Cant take it because you might not make it to your 'reserved' shelter. And heaven forbid you try to stay at the 'wrong' shelter. Why not just get a permit for your total number of days in the park and the shelters are first come, first served. Everyone else can pitch a tent.
tb
From a newbies point of view: It seems that the system is a little too rigid. What if you find an interesting side trail? Cant take it because you might not make it to your 'reserved' shelter. And heaven forbid you try to stay at the 'wrong' shelter. Why not just get a permit for your total number of days in the park and the shelters are first come, first served. Everyone else can pitch a tent.
tb
Heaven forbid you actually having to get out a map and figure out how many miles you can walk in a day. Thats just far too rigid.
RockyTrail
02-23-2006, 15:20
. During the backpacking "craze" of the 1970's, it was not uncommon to have over 100+ hikers at a shelter.
Reminds me of my first experience in GSMNP (approx 1975?) . My buddy and I hiked from Cosby campground up to the AT one afternoon destination Cosby Shelter. My recollection is that we did have some sort of permit.
When we got there at dusk, the shelter was packed full, no room at the inn. We set up our "pup" tent about 50 feet in front of the shelter amongst some of the most bear-scarred trees I'd ever seen. There were signs posted all around the site by the NPS warning of bear problems...the shelter had the wire cage across the front. The folks in the nice safe shelter all thought we were crazy (maybe rightly so!). They didn't volunteer any space for us but that was OK I don't care for shelters anyway except maybe in hard rain. It was tough going to sleep that night listening to the shelter people taking bets on when we would be eaten alive:D . I was only slightly concerned at the time but we never saw a bear. But I wish I had made a picture of that site...
sliderule
02-23-2006, 15:34
From a newbies point of view: It seems that the system is a little too rigid. What if you find an interesting side trail? Cant take it because you might not make it to your 'reserved' shelter. And heaven forbid you try to stay at the 'wrong' shelter. Why not just get a permit for your total number of days in the park and the shelters are first come, first served. Everyone else can pitch a tent.
tb
You are looking at the glass as being half empty when it it is actually half full. When you have a shelter reservation, you can afford to take your time. You don't have to rush to the next shelter so that you can be one of those "first served" folks. And you won't have to worry about a tent.
And, as a newbie, you probably have not thought about problem of human impact in the nation's most popular national park. You probably also don't realize that the AT is maintained by volunteers. So let me suggest that you volunteer to become a privy maintainer at Icewater Springs. That will help you to understand "human impact." And when you are shoveling the stuff into the wheelbarrow and hauling it down the hill, ask yourself how it would be if there were 100 people a night staying at the shelter instead of only twelve.
The bottom line is that the reservation system is here to stay. It's not going away.
sliderule
02-23-2006, 15:41
More often than not I hiked thru the park with no permit. No worries.
If you get caught, just explain to the judge that you are too dumb to understand the rules. I don't think that you will have any trouble convincing him.
Lone Wolf
02-23-2006, 15:43
Sre, whatever slick.:)
Yes the NPS permit system is the NPS', however ridgerunners are asked to check permits so there is a relationship with both organizations. As far as the permits for the parks, I have used them and would call them a piece of paper, if you have a better more descriptive word I would be glad to use it, the point of my post was to help find a solution to what people believe isn't a working system.
I'm just a man who enjoys backpacking and is extremely excited about the new lifestyle I am about to get into. I'm not trying to come across as an "ambassador," just someone who is trying to help.
if you try to check my permit, you will not receive a friendly response. please do not follow in the footsteps of last year's ridgerunner, mr. glen, who was up there badgering everybody about their permits. i believe we have heard references to mr. glen in this thread.
Max Power
02-23-2006, 18:16
Thanks for the heads up Mingo. I don't think I'll ask to see a permit, my main concern is LNT and cleaning up as much I can, and just helping (directions and what not) anyone who may need it. I may ask if they are on plan with their permit and offer to update it if need be. That is if the NPS and AT is cool with that. If NPS and AT don't want me to do that, you know if they have the mentality that hikers should be on schedule, then I will forget about the permits and concentrate on other issues. I'm not out there to give people a hard time; I'm out there to make it more enjoyable.
Heaven forbid you actually having to get out a map and figure out how many miles you can walk in a day. Thats just far too rigid.
Uh, knowing how far you can walk in a day isnt the question. The freaking reservation system is the tail wagging the dog. It basically takes any sense of spontanaity out of a hike through the length of the park. "C'mon guys, we cant stop here and enjoy the freakin scenery, we got to get to the shelter for our reservation deadline'. Are we here to make 'their' reservation system work, or should they have a system that best supports the 'customers'?
tb
Thanks for the heads up Mingo. I don't think I'll ask to see a permit, my main concern is LNT and cleaning up as much I can, and just helping (directions and what not) anyone who may need it. I may ask if they are on plan with their permit and offer to update it if need be. That is if the NPS and AT is cool with that. If NPS and AT don't want me to do that, you know if they have the mentality that hikers should be on schedule, then I will forget about the permits and concentrate on other issues. I'm not out there to give people a hard time; I'm out there to make it more enjoyable.
thank you. thank you. thank you. you have the right attitude. it'll be a pleasure to meet you on the trail, and your volunteer efforts will be greatly appreciated
Uh, knowing how far you can walk in a day isnt the question. The freaking reservation system is the tail wagging the dog. It basically takes any sense of spontanaity out of a hike through the length of the park. "C'mon guys, we cant stop here and enjoy the freakin scenery, we got to get to the shelter for our reservation deadline'. Are we here to make 'their' reservation system work, or should they have a system that best supports the 'customers'?
tb
the system is getting a bad rap here. if you didn't have to make reservations, there'd be a million people at the popular shelters every night making a giant mess. you have to understand that the smokies attracts many more backpackers than most of the rest of the trail. there has to be some way to restrict their numbers. thru-hikers are lucky that the rangers don't sit down there at fontana dam keeping a count and letting only a certain number go up each day. (actually, that might not be such a bad idea.)
Are we here to make 'their' reservation system work, or should they have a system that best supports the 'customers'?
tb
There are too many damn customers. THAT is the problem. GSMNP is the most visited National Park in the country. If you want spontaneity, there are 10's of millions of acres of National Forest & BLM lands to play in. Have at it!
sliderule
02-23-2006, 20:23
Uh, knowing how far you can walk in a day isnt the question. The freaking reservation system is the tail wagging the dog. It basically takes any sense of spontanaity out of a hike through the length of the park. "C'mon guys, we cant stop here and enjoy the freakin scenery, we got to get to the shelter for our reservation deadline'. Are we here to make 'their' reservation system work, or should they have a system that best supports the 'customers'?
tb
If there was no reservation system, I will bet that you would be at the head of the line complaining about how your wilderness experience was ruined by too many people on the trail. You would whine about how you had to get up early and hurry to beat the crowds at the next shelter. Even then you might not get in because people would camp at shelters for days at a time, while they enjoyed those interesting side trails. And that 's assuming that you were able to find a parking space at the trailhead in the first place.
But whining here won't change a thing. If you have recomendations for a more "customer oriented" system, you should send them to someone who can change things. The Park Superintendent is Dale Ditmanson. His address is:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park
107 Park Headquarters Road
Gatlinburg, TN 37738
And be sure to let him know that you are a spontaneous hiker.
If there was no reservation system, I will bet that you would be at the head of the line complaining about how your wilderness experience was ruined by too many people on the trail. You would whine about how you had to get up early and hurry to beat the crowds at the next shelter. Even then you might not get in because people would camp at shelters for days at a time, while they enjoyed those interesting side trails. And that 's assuming that you were able to find a parking space at the trailhead in the first place.
But whining here won't change a thing. If you have recomendations for a more "customer oriented" system, you should send them to someone who can change things. The Park Superintendent is Dale Ditmanson. His address is:
Great Smoky Mountains National Park
107 Park Headquarters Road
Gatlinburg, TN 37738
And be sure to let him know that you are a spontaneous hiker.
Well, if the system works so good in your opinion, I wonder why I see all the comments about all the folks in the shelters who dont have reservations? Maybe its because the system doesnt really work?
You dont work for the government by chance, do you?
Alligator
02-23-2006, 21:39
There are plenty of places in the park where reservations are not needed. Just get off the ridgeline.
Lone Wolf
02-23-2006, 21:47
Great Smoky National Park and Baxter State Park are the only places on the AT that suck. Too many rules and regs. But if you're like me, you hike those places on your own terms. Don't sign anything. Just walk. What are "they" gonna do? Send you to Iraq?:D
freefall
02-23-2006, 22:03
What are "they" gonna do? Send you to Iraq?:D3
Hey, don't give `em any ideas on how to make up the quota shortfalls.
sliderule
02-23-2006, 22:22
Well, if the system works so good in your opinion, I wonder why I see all the comments about all the folks in the shelters who dont have reservations? Maybe its because the system doesnt really work?
Refer to post #27.
But you are right, there are a lot of derelicts who won't play by the rules.
I will call Superintendent Ditmanson in the morning and recommend that he devote additional resources to backcountry enforcement, especially along the AT. He needs to nip this problem in the bud.
Lone Wolf
02-23-2006, 22:26
Ditmanson can't AFFORD more enforcement. He won't have time for your call.:)
Refer to post #27.
But you are right, there are a lot of derelicts who won't play by the rules.
I will call Superintendent Ditmanson in the morning and recommend that he devote additional resources to backcountry enforcement, especially along the AT. He needs to nip this problem in the bud.
I am sure he will be waiting for YOUR call. LOL. Your opinion is that the system works fine, but the people screw it up. Reality is when 'the system' doesnt work, people tend to work around it. That philosophy works throughout our society. Be sure to tell him that (after you tell him to nip this problem in the bud).
sliderule
02-23-2006, 22:57
Ditmanson can't AFFORD more enforcement. He won't have time for your call.:)
It's all a matter of resource allocation. No additional cost involved.
Lone Wolf
02-23-2006, 22:59
Yeah. Put all the rangers in the bush to catch 1 in 500 hikers without a permit. Brilliant!:D :D
sliderule
02-23-2006, 23:13
Yeah. Put all the rangers in the bush to catch 1 in 500 hikers without a permit. Brilliant!:D :D
If 98.8% of hikers have permits, then there really is not a problem. Thank you for providing that data. Coming from you, I am sure that the figures are accurate. With that sort of compliance rate, the backcountry reservation system must be operating like a well-oiled machine.
Now, if at least 50% of park visitors would obey the speed limits on Highway 441.....
Alligator
02-23-2006, 23:28
If 98.8% of hikers have permits, ....
Switch to a calculator, 99.8%:) .
sliderule
02-23-2006, 23:33
Switch to a calculator, 99.8%:) .
Things are looking better all the time....