TP &/or Wipes Question

[GolfHiker]

With so many real good, important questions to be asked, I thought I would have a simple, yet perplexing question for a thru...:confused: having done only moderate Section Hikes of a week+, I've never carried more than a partial role & a few wipes. I really like wipes, for so many uses, but they are a bit heavy for the obvious reason. So if you carry a full load of wipes & a full role of TP, you are adding bulk & weight. What is the norm? How much should you carry? I know it's not a luxury, but with frequent towns, hostels, etc., what do you all do? I did hear of one guy who went sans TP, and only carried Wipes ( Huggies, One & Done, I believe)... that actually sounds doable? :-?

Thanks.

[Dogwood]

As a male, on EVERY LD hike I've done I've NEVER carried TP or wipes. No absolute need. Smooth sticks/stones, leaves, handful of moss/ferns/grass, etc is fine. Dampened bandanna for wiping down the grime and sweat off face and non genital/private area works just fine.

Judgmental this is but I find hiking creates the opportunity to push beyond normal comfort zones. This is actually freeing not depriving oneself.

[burger]

Here's another possibility for those more squeamish than Dogwood: use rocks/sticks/non-spiny cones/snow (snow is highly recommended) for the first few wipes. Then use one piece of TP to clean up a the end (pun intended).

Whatever you do, don't put wipes into your cat hole or the composting privies. Those things will never break down.

[rocketsocks]

As a male, on EVERY LD hike I've done I've NEVER carried TP or wipes. No absolute need. Smooth sticks/stones, leaves, handful of moss/ferns/grass, etc is fine. Dampened bandanna for wiping down the grime and sweat off face and non genital/private area works just fine.

Judgmental this is but I find hiking creates the opportunity to push beyond normal comfort zones. This is actually freeing not depriving oneself.rabbits work pretty well too...hard to catch though, but they fight less than ground hogs.

[Dogwood]

Some types of pine comes work well to wipe IF you wipe in the right direction. I can sense the women grimmacing.....eewww.

[bessiebreeze]

If you are interested in "leaving no trace", either TP or wipes should be put in a plastic bag and carried to the closest trash can. And Do Not leave wipes in a shelter privy. A trail maintainer once told me they had to fish out all wipes from the shelter prives.

[Lnj]

As a male, on EVERY LD hike I've done I've NEVER carried TP or wipes. No absolute need. Smooth sticks/stones, leaves, handful of moss/ferns/grass, etc is fine. Dampened bandanna for wiping down the grime and sweat off face and non genital/private area works just fine.

Judgmental this is but I find hiking creates the opportunity to push beyond normal comfort zones. This is actually freeing not depriving oneself.

Speaking as a woman, when I had my children the hospital issued me a small squirt bottle, something akin to the smart water bottles. If you fill that up with water, and DON'T TOUCH IT TO YOURSELF, but squirt with enough pressure you can clean up any mess going on and refresh the whole place, rinsing away sweat and other grime too. Then just dry off with a bandana reserved for that purpose only. Very light weight, very LNT and easy, if and when water is plentiful.

Also, not so much risk of wiping a tick on to your body and any other animal excrement.

[Lyle]

In winter, snow works quite well for both wiping and cleansing. Too bad it's not around year round.

[Uncle Joe]

TP and some wipes. I don't do wipes only anymore because frankly, humans were made for a dry wipe at least initially. I don't make the rules, just point them out. As for sticks, stones, and pinecones...see my last point. As you say, TP is not a luxury.

[The Cleaner]

IMO TP is OK but the wipes are not needed.They do not degrade like TP and I'm finding more of them used , just tossed into a fire pit and some left on the ground next to shelters.If you can't stand being a bit sweaty for a while maybe you should stick to day hikes...

[Lyle]

.............

[MuddyWaters]

Here's another possibility for those more squeamish than Dogwood: use rocks/sticks/non-spiny cones/snow (snow is highly recommended) for the first few wipes. Then use one piece of TP to clean up a the end (pun intended).

Whatever you do, don't put wipes into your cat hole or the composting privies. Those things will never break down.

Precisely what I do.
Natural materials for the bulk of work
tiny tiny bit of TP for final polishing

My standard TP carry for a week is 1/2 oz., and theres been few times Ive used it all.

Yes, wipes are verbotten unless you pack them out, and who wants to do that???

[JumpMaster Blaster]

I've heard of some thrus drying out their baby wipes, then wetting them as needed. I tried it on a couple section hikes. Just be sure to pack it out & not bury it.

Coleman makes a biodegradeable wipe- I have some but never tried to see how long it would take to decompose. Better to pack it out too.

As for wiping with sticks, rocks, moss...uh-uh. Nope. Trust and believe, I'd lose my extra socks, bandana, and sleeping clothes before I'd go that route. There's only so much nature I want getting around my girly-parts...

[GolfHiker]

Sometimes, like this one I surprise myself at my own naïveté. I did not know that wipes were verboten in privys, but since I do now ( and it makes sense) I just won't take them. That solves that. As for the Cleaner's thought of doing day hikes if you don't want to be sweaty, I'll let that pass, and assume he did not really intend to insult all day hikers. Personally, I love being sweaty.

I may not be able to go the sticks & smooth rocks method, but I always appreciate the varied answers to my questions. Please remember, and take it all in stride that some of us genuinely don't know everything, thus the reason for the question.

Thanks. In the end I believe this is something that'll figure out very quickly.

[Harrison Bergeron]

One thing I've noticed is that the most of the extreme LNT types who claim to use pine cones or at most one sheet of TP and NEVER a wet-wipe tend to be extremely thin youngsters with zero body hair. I'd just like to point out that we all don't enjoy a completely hairless body with a big gap between our thighs that lends itself to such minimal hygiene. In fact, you might be surprised to learn that there walk among us those who would probably require airlift rescue due to terminal monkey butt if we attempted such nonsense.

So if you happen to be one of those unfortunates who can't survive weeks without a shower on one sheet of TP a day, relax. There are plenty of skinny youngsters out there pretending to use one sheet a day to allow you to use three and a wet wipe without guilt.

As for the wet-wipes-in-the-privy problem, if fishing them out of the compost really bothered the trail maintainers (assuming anyone actually does it -- I've never noticed any evidence of it), they could solve that problem by simply providing a plastic bucket with a lid to put them in. And this would simultaneously solve the tampon-in-the-privy problem.

[Uncle Joe]

I think it would depend on the wipe. There are bio-degradable ones out there.

[burger]

As for the wet-wipes-in-the-privy problem, if fishing them out of the compost really bothered the trail maintainers (assuming anyone actually does it -- I've never noticed any evidence of it), they could solve that problem by simply providing a plastic bucket with a lid to put them in. And this would simultaneously solve the tampon-in-the-privy problem.

You know what would also be great? If every time I showed up at a shelter, there was a steward there to hand me a cold beer and take my order for dinner. Massages would be nice, too.

Harrison, it's a hiking trail, not a hotel. Pack out anything non-biodegradable that you hike in. If you find the services provided inadequate, then stay out of the woods.

[OldGringo]

Speaking as a woman, when I had my children the hospital issued me a small squirt bottle, something akin to the smart water bottles. If you fill that up with water, and DON'T TOUCH IT TO YOURSELF, but squirt with enough pressure you can clean up any mess going on and refresh the whole place, rinsing away sweat and other grime too. Then just dry off with a bandana reserved for that purpose only. Very light weight, very LNT and easy, if and when water is plentiful.

Also, not so much risk of wiping a tick on to your body and any other animal excrement.

I'm with Lnj, a portable Bidet is the easiest most sanitary thing to carry. Of course your water usage goes up a bit but I think it's worth it...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Maui Rhino]

Guess I'm in the opposite camp from most. I haven't carried TP in years, but won't go anywhere without wipes. They clean much better than TP, so a single wipe goes further. I can use it to clean my face and body, making it multi-purpose. A freezer bag ziplock makes packing them out clean and sanitary. Sometimes I let a stack airdry for a week or so, for lighter weight, and dehydrate them with a little water.

Yes, they're heavier than TP....but for me, being happy, clean, and comfortable, with no monkey butt is worth a couple extra ounces.

[Traveler]

Though many manufacturers make what they claim are "biodegradable" wipes, their claims tend to be exaggerated, or the definitions are altered to fit a product that may breakdown over several decades instead of days. This is a huge issue in sanitary sewer systems, costing a significant amount of money and labor to unclog pumps, remove deposits in pipes, and maintain treatment facilities where wipes tend to get caught or build up. Wipes can destroy septic systems by floating out of the septic tanks into the leech field and preventing or greatly slowing percolation.

Basically, the definition of biodegradable for sanitary waste (which applies to hiking use) breaks down into two groups, dispersible and non dispersible. Dispersible requires the material to disperse in water within 20 minutes of emersion with minor water movement (think a jug of water half filled being tipped slowly side to side). TP for example will break down fairly rapidly, however kleenex requires three times longer to break down than TP, surprisingly. Suffice to say, most anything made from natural fibers will be biodegradable, even if it takes a year to break down. Things made from man-made fibers will not break down unless they are chemically treated, which also leeches into the ground around the product during this process, which can take many years to complete.

There is a lot of science and engineering behind all this. INDA - the Association of Non-Woven Fabrics Manufacturers is currently involved with product testing to assess claims of biodegradable (so far its the coatings on the wipes that are, not the wipes themselves by definition) and avoid regulatory actions on behalf of septic system and sanitary sewer owners. Independent testing by sewerage agencies around the US have not yet found any non-woven materials to be dispersible at this point.

Bottom line remains, if you need to use wipes, please haul them out. The treated material has an attractive aroma to it and virtually guarantees it will be dug up by small animals. It's difficult to burn (baby wipes are made in part from kevlar manufacturing byproduct), and inhibits the ability of outhouses to compost waste effectively and efficiently.

[Traillium]

Thanks, Traveler! I just read your bio. You know whereof you speak. Thanks!


Bruce Traillium

[Harrison Bergeron]

You know what would also be great? If every time I showed up at a shelter, there was a steward there to hand me a cold beer and take my order for dinner. Massages would be nice, too.

Harrison, it's a hiking trail, not a hotel. Pack out anything non-biodegradable that you hike in. If you find the services provided inadequate, then stay out of the woods.

Even nicer would be a hiking forum where people didn't automatically respond to alternate points of view with sarcasm and ridicule.

I never said I found the services inadequate. I merely pointed out the most logical solution to a problem. Your solution requires everyone to cooperate in handling and packing out disease-inducing bits of feces and paper, and for trail maintainers to pick through compost piles to extract the dirty wet-wipes and used tampons of people who refuse to cooperate. Obviously, that ain't working.

I find that solutions to problems present themselves more easily when I accept the reality of the world I live in rather than demand the world to change to suit my expectations of how things ought to be.

[Mouser999]

I found a package of wipes at Walmart that the label stated they breakdown in about 21 days (Coleman product I think) when exposed to air. Didn't get but it would be interesting if true

[burger]

Even nicer would be a hiking forum where people didn't automatically respond to alternate points of view with sarcasm and ridicule.

I never said I found the services inadequate. I merely pointed out the most logical solution to a problem. Your solution requires everyone to cooperate in handling and packing out disease-inducing bits of feces and paper, and for trail maintainers to pick through compost piles to extract the dirty wet-wipes and used tampons of people who refuse to cooperate. Obviously, that ain't working.

I find that solutions to problems present themselves more easily when I accept the reality of the world I live in rather than demand the world to change to suit my expectations of how things ought to be.

I use sarcasm when I see something silly.

Handling your own tp/wipes is not disease-inducing. I packed out my TP on the PCT and CDT and never got sick once. Ditto for my hiking partner. A little hand sanitizer goes a long way.

The idea that the poor volunteers who already have to turn over the compost at the privies should also have to handle everyone's wipes, etc. is the very definition of changing the world to suit your expectations. A much better and fairer solution is to educate people about how their wipes or tampons will never biodegrade and should be left at home unless you plan to pack them out. Even on this thread, a few people have said that they didn't know that wipes shouldn't be left in privies.

[Gambit McCrae]

Here's another possibility for those more squeamish than Dogwood: use rocks/sticks/non-spiny cones/snow (snow is highly recommended) for the first few wipes. Then use one piece of TP to clean up a the end (pun intended).

Whatever you do, don't put wipes into your cat hole or the composting privies. Those things will never break down.

They make biodegradable wipes. Wipes are what I use both at home, and on the trail.


As a male, on EVERY LD hike I've done I've NEVER carried TP or wipes. No absolute need. Smooth sticks/stones, leaves, handful of moss/ferns/grass, etc is fine. Dampened bandanna for wiping down the grime and sweat off face and non genital/private area works just fine.

Judgmental this is but I find hiking creates the opportunity to push beyond normal comfort zones. This is actually freeing not depriving oneself.

I'm sorry but I've tried it, done it, no. lol Moss particles in the crack and spreading my feces around using sticks and rocks...I don't get the appeal. A simple zip-lock with some wipes work great. you can find them in every gas station or dollar general, there is TP in a lot of privies as well. walking all day with moss butt aint fun, mud butt is bad enough :datz

[Christoph]

On my attempt I took 1 roll of TP (which was more than enough between restocks) and a small bag of wipes. Wipes were for treating/cleaning feet and chaffing and they always went in the trash. You probably know what the TP was for. :confused: As for the weight of the wipes, I dried them out in the sun, so you can shave almost all the weight from them this way. They bulk back up with a little water and become "new" again.

[QHShowoman]

I bring TP with the cardboard core removed...I just carry the whole roll because the extra weight isn't worth the effort of paring it down, IMO. It gets smaller as I go, anyway. Unless there are privies available, I pack all my TP out. Always.

And I bring a pack of these. There are 12 wipes in each pack and I usually will use 1 each night in my tent to wipe my face, pits, bits, etc. They're pretty durable and will stand up to rinsing clean with water, etc. They also get packed out. I'll shove the used ones into the mesh pocket of my pack to dry out as I hike and then it goes into my ziploc trash bag.

http://www.cvs.com/shop/cvs-unscented-washcloths-skuid-698055

[Mouser999]

My TP comes from the ends of the commercial rolls at work with no core. After a certain point they fall out and the size is perfect for a few days usage.

[Jake2c]

Hmmmm, interesting discussion. Apart from the wise cracks, some pretty interesting stuff. I have in the past used TP (I try to get the kind used on boats and in RV's which degrades faster) and 100% natural Witch Hazel wipes on occasion. I will have to see about how bio-degradable the wipes are. I'm not buying the use sticks and smooth rocks. First, I doubt more than a very few resort to that on purpose and second, I take it they aren't putting the rocks and such in a privy, and also doubt they are digging a hole deep enough to bury all of it. I guess though, that answers the question as to the source on the few times I have gotten human feces on my shoes. And while handling your own feces is not particularly disease-inducing, it can be depending on where you get it, maybe something to consider the nest time you wipe sweat out of your eyes. Good question but the OP, it will make me re-think what I do, and that is always a good thing.

[Slo-go'en]

I carry my used wipes until A) I find a trash can or B) find a campfire to burn them in.

[Leo L.]

I'm doing a lot of hiking in the Midde East, where (due to Islam rules) the use of water for cleaning after toilet is very common, even mandatory.
Got so much used to this, that I carry TP only for bad cases of diarrhy or very dry conditions when I have to save water by the drop.
So I use a very small bottle of liquid soap (the one you usually find in a hotel room), plus water which I carry anyway, and enjoy the great feeling of beeing perfectly clean and good smelling after a big toilet business.

I would never carry a pack of wipes and use them on trail. Also, I dont believe the story of biodegradeable wipes. Maybe they crumble after exposure to UV or Ozone to invisible small particles.
Sewer plants have a hell of a problem with wipes.
Trails (any place where people gather outdoors) have a hell of a problem with toilet paper.
I would not like to accumulate both problems!

[Uncle Joe]

If TP is buried it shouldn't cause any problems. It breaks down pretty well. As for using your hands, no way. I'm sorry. I never understood how these oil-rich countries didn't just send a tanker of oil to the West in exchange for a tanker of TP! How can you go back once you've used it? To me that's like abandoning fire! "No, no, no need to heat this I'll just eat it raw and cold!" Yeah, no thanks.

[MuddyWaters]

If TP is buried it shouldn't cause any problems. It breaks down pretty well. As for using your hands, no way. I'm sorry. I never understood how these oil-rich countries didn't just send a tanker of oil to the West in exchange for a tanker of TP! How can you go back once you've used it? To me that's like abandoning fire! "No, no, no need to heat this I'll just eat it raw and cold!" Yeah, no thanks.

Tp degrades OK in moist soil. Out west where its arid, you ou need to pack even tp out, it can still be there years later.

To insure it breaks down, puor water in hole and swill around, it will rapidly dissolve into dirt-poo mix. Then cover hole. If you do it rigjt, no one will ever know your cathole was there when they dig in same spot a week later. Except that the digging was ez.

Plenty of people use little or no tp, because out west, they dont want to carry it for a week. AT hikers dont have that problem with plentiful privys and people taking care of them.

[Leo L.]

I'm aware that our western culture teaches us to not touch yourself there with bare hands. Instead we got educated to smear the stuff around with dry TP <brrr>
Cleanlyness got vastly improved by the use of wipes, true.
But the environmental problems with TP get topped by the much bigger problems with wipes.
If you carry out all you use, thats fine (still you don't know how the waste is treated finally). In reality, very many do not carry it out nor bury or burn it (I have to admit that you Nort Americans are way better educated in respect of such topics).
The reduced waste on the trail is just one point of using water instead of TP or wipes.
Another point is the reduced usage of resources in production.
But my major point is the way better cleanlyness!

BTW, they swap goods by the tanker, oil for money, money for TP (to be used by tourists).
They didn't abandon fire yet.

[Lnj]

I'm still for the mini-bidet concept. Much cleaner for all concerned. Just need a smart water bottle with a sport spout and a bandana to use as a dry towel. No need to use your hands either, just a good pressure squirt. Only real issue is the availability of water. Not an issue at all in Georgia.

[jefals]

all I can say is, if you're wiping your butt with pine cones, you are one tough M*^&%$<>!

[Dogwood]

This is where I thought the pro TP and Baby Wipes crowd would take this. Why don't you give something else a consideration, a try, inform yourself, before boo hooing natural materials and/or other "methods" rather than adding to the countless TP and Baby Wipe blossoms into the outdoors experience? I'm serious about this. It is a spoiled cultural norm that assumes you do your biz at home and it's all flushed away without it being YOUR PROBLEM ever again which carries over to doing YOUR BIZ in outdoor environments AND IT RESULTING IN SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEM ...all to frequently!

I'm much more concerned about the contraction of disease from human related behavior vectored among humans and their pets than naturally non human activity contaminated water, wildlife, bacteria/fungi/ticks/parasites on sticks/stones/moss/leaves/grass/ferns/snow etc. Human activity, specifically bad human hygiene practices, what humans are possibly doing upstream, and allowing their domesticated animals like dogs romp through and defecate in and near possible drinking water sources is my biggest concern.

TP and Baby Wipes are rather new inventions. OMG, can't we imagine how the world survived before them? Is it possible to apply a different set of norms even in the area of BOTH male and female defecation, urination, and personal hygiene? I thought that is what experiencing the outdoors is largely about?

This is a sensitive subject. Like most, I thought I knew more than I actually did about this topic. I was wrong! These sources helped me to better understand. When I first saw this book I thought how ridiculous, a whole book dedicated to Shartin in the Woods. Then I started glancing through it. Applied what I learned. I know it makes me a better hiker and takes into consideration others including the natural environment more conscientiously.

http://www.amazon.com/How-****-Woods-Edition-Environmentally/dp/1580083633

This is a good article and Q&A session on the subject. Don't take the information out of context! It can apply to other outdoor enthusiasts who don't consider themselves ULers!

http://ultralightbackpackintips.blogspot.com/2012/09/liberate-yourself-from-toilet-paper.html

This is useful information for females! This is not the Female Forum men so be extra sensitive with your comments IF they specifically and appropriately apply to females!!! In short, a pee rag used for the V and soft leaves like Lamb's Ears, NON CRUMBLY dry leaves, ferns, Arrowwood(Viburnum spp), grasses, smooth med sized rocks, smooth sticks(with bark removed on some species like pine), fir cones(these evergreen species have smooth cones), etc for the poo works for lots of female LD hikers I know. They further wash with water. All this occurs privately away from streams, ponds, springs, etc. The second half of the equation(pooing) applies to males.

http://andrewskurka.com/2013/female-hygiene-guide-tips/

http://sectionhiker.com/uh-oh-by-kathleen-meyer/

[Kaptainkriz]

Where does it all go?:

http://youtu.be/9hTosCUTmck

[rickb]

One thing I've noticed is that the most of the extreme LNT types who claim to use pine cones or at most one sheet of TP and NEVER a wet-wipe tend to be extremely thin youngsters with zero body hair. I'd just like to point out that we all don't enjoy a completely hairless body with a big gap between our thighs that lends itself to such minimal hygiene. In fact, you might be surprised to learn that there walk among us those who would probably require airlift rescue due to terminal monkey butt if we attempted such nonsense.

So if you happen to be one of those unfortunates who can't survive weeks without a shower on one sheet of TP a day, relax. There are plenty of skinny youngsters out there pretending to use one sheet a day to allow you to use three and a wet wipe without guilt.

As for the wet-wipes-in-the-privy problem, if fishing them out of the compost really bothered the trail maintainers (assuming anyone actually does it -- I've never noticed any evidence of it), they could solve that problem by simply providing a plastic bucket with a lid to put them in. And this would simultaneously solve the tampon-in-the-privy problem.

Good post.

The only thing I would add is that those of a certain age would do well to consider yoga before heading out-- so that they are flexible enough to do the job right.

Cleanliness is important to a feeling of wellbeing when your day includes 15 miles of walking, and it's not like you have a shower to make up for less than perfect work.

[Uncle Joe]

I have no problem avoiding wipes. Unless they're biodegradable and trustable to be so, pack them out if you take them. TP? No. I'll take my TP and I will definitely bury it. I'm prone to find a large rock to cap off my cat hole for extra measure. I realize not everyone is ethical in that regard but you can have my TP when you pry it from my...well, where ever you can pry it. :p TP breaks down fine. It's a wood product. Sometimes I get the feeling if it weren't bleached there'd be less of an issue. That said, throw me firmly into the "hates to see white TP in the woods" crowd. Not to mention feminine hygiene products. Hung the hammock between two big trees only to find some female hiker had already laid claim to the backside of one of them. :eek:

[Traveler]

I found a package of wipes at Walmart that the label stated they breakdown in about 21 days (Coleman product I think) when exposed to air. Didn't get but it would be interesting if true

You can test these out, bury one or two in holes 6" deep and check it again in three weeks, leave one out on the ground (anchored) and see how it disperses. If they need air to break down they are not practical for use in cat holes or composting waste and should be packed out and properly disposed of. I'll be very interested to hear what you find out.

[Harrison Bergeron]

I use sarcasm when I see something silly.

Handling your own tp/wipes is not disease-inducing. I packed out my TP on the PCT and CDT and never got sick once. Ditto for my hiking partner. A little hand sanitizer goes a long way.

The idea that the poor volunteers who already have to turn over the compost at the privies should also have to handle everyone's wipes, etc. is the very definition of changing the world to suit your expectations. A much better and fairer solution is to educate people about how their wipes or tampons will never biodegrade and should be left at home unless you plan to pack them out. Even on this thread, a few people have said that they didn't know that wipes shouldn't be left in privies.

Not disease-inducing? Nearly every single illness that we treat our water to avoid is caused by bacteria that originate in human feces. Here's just a few of the diseases caused by poor sanitation where one person's feces-contaminated fingers come into contact with another person's water supply: Giardia, salmonella, e-coli, cholera, dysentery, typhoid

But, hey, your education idea might work. I've got an idea -- lets educate everyone to just cooperate on everything! Think of it -- we could create a world where people would voluntarily give according to their ability and take only what they needed. Imagine -- no possessions, no need for greed or hunger, a brotherhood of man! Imagine all the people sharing all the world!

And we could create education camps where uncooperative people would be re-educated! And if they were still a problem, we could just eliminate them.

Wait a minute, this sounds familiar. Didn't somebody already try this last century? I seem to recall it ended with about 100 million uncooperative dead people.

OK, here's another idea. How about if we had a system when we paid people to serve their fellow man? For instance, instead of hoping for people to handle their own feces or for volunteers to do it for them, we could pay people to clean and maintain the privies. Maybe if we paid them enough, the privies wouldn't fill up during the bubble and it wouldn't be necessary to hike through wastelands of TP blooms because the privies are full and people are forced to dig shallow holes to bury their feces for others to walk on.

Wow, I'm just full of silly ideas!

[burger]

Not disease-inducing? Nearly every single illness that we treat our water to avoid is caused by bacteria that originate in human feces. Here's just a few of the diseases caused by poor sanitation where one person's feces-contaminated fingers come into contact with another person's water supply: Giardia, salmonella, e-coli, cholera, dysentery, typhoid


I'm going to ignore your crazy political rant. Going from "everyone should pack out their wipes" to 100 million dead people is just insane.

Let me focus on your ignorant statement about feces. There is near-zero risk from handling your own TP. You can't get a disease that you don't already have from handling your own TP or wipes!!!! If you've ever used TP, you've handled TP. Packing it poses no more risk than wiping with TP does.

Making some poor volunteer fish through the privy to remove the wipes means that that person is exposed to diseases potentially. But if everyone just takes care of their own business properly, there's no risk.

</rant over>

Happy new year everyone! Let's make this a year where no one has to run across improperly buried TP/waste on the trail and shelter volunteers don't have to fish wipes out of the privies! Those things would make the AT experience better for everyone.

[Hikes in Rain]

I beg your pardon, but you most certainly can get sick from your own feces! Not a disease, per se, but getting your upper intestinal tract infected by coliform bacteria prevalent in the lower can cause heavy duty vomiting and diarrhea, which can of course lead to dehydration and even death.

[Dogwood]

It's obvious most of us have never cleaned or maintained a composting privy. LARGELY, TP, Baby Wipes and tampons most take onto hikes, like on the AT, contain various chemicals that can interfere with the composting cycle. Baby Wipes, Wet Wipes, etc in particular can take more than 1 season to compost fully. BUT, again, even IF they do compost in themselves, they still add to the mass that must be composted and can interfere with the composting. This can be the same with biodegradable TP and Wet Wipe type materials. Heck, we even discourage men from urinating in our composting privy in Hawaii so it doesn't add to the mass that must be composted and possibly interfere with the composting cycle. We ask the men to discretely wiz in the bushes in a non conspicuous area. I know, we'll likely be envisioned by some as a bunch of non conformists dark age living Luddite hippie commune Vegan "it's all groovy man" environmental extremists spreading mayhem and dis-ease. :D

When I'm in Hawaii living of the grid we have a composting toilet. We do indeed have a bucket w/a lid in the privy where used TP, Wet Wipes, etc go into the bucket we burn about every 10 days or so. This is to not interfere with the composting. BUT, it's just 2-3 people occasionally popping in the composting toilet and it's maintained rather easily being only 200-300 ft from our residence. Imagine maintaining a composting privy that requires a multi mile hike to get to with 200+ hikers per wk eating whatever they can pooping/peeing multiple times a day amassed at one privy. Now, add the inevitable non biodegradable food packaging, tampons, Vienna sausage/sardine tins, beer can, clothing article, plastic and metal watch-a-ma-call-its, etc etc etc into the mass that doesn't biodegrade. NOW, add in the composting toilet having to work harder with all the TP, Wet Wipes, etc. Expecting a composting privy maintainer of a well used AT privy to burn others' used TP and Wet Wipes while keeping some regular degree of cleanliness and order is AGAIN PUSHING OFF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR SHART ONTO SOMEONE ELSE!

As typical, once again, I find potentially useful information shared is NOT being considered. It's not like those who use natural materials to wipe enjoy crumbly leaves, moss, bark, etc sticking to their undersides. After some practice it's easy enough to find materials that don't leave a "natural residue" behind on the behind. :) A couple of large leaves usually does the trick. Some leaves even have a natural scent to them. And, some leaves like Verbascum(common mullein), as the name suggests a rather common weedy plant, have a velvety texture that is every bit as soft as Charmin TP. That's why this plant has been labeled "cowboy TP." Of course, consideration of not destroying the whole plant by just snipping just a few leaves or taking only a few fern fronds is in order.

By the way ladies by using Wet Wipes, Baby Wipes, possibly even some types of TP, containing chemicals like alcohol, on the "V" you could be interfering with the natural pH and bacterial balance. HMM? UTI, don't want one of those on a hike! I know I'm skating on thin ice as a male suggesting anything about maintaining the V so I'll again leave you to consider reading and applying the advice given by other women in the links previously shared.

[burger]

I beg your pardon, but you most certainly can get sick from your own feces! Not a disease, per se, but getting your upper intestinal tract infected by coliform bacteria prevalent in the lower can cause heavy duty vomiting and diarrhea, which can of course lead to dehydration and even death.

If so, then why doesn't this happen all the time on the AT? Everyone is wiping their own butts with TP (or sticks or srocks or something), and lots of AT hikers don't clean up very well. I think that getting sick from your own poop is a non-issue for the vast, vast majority of hikers.

More generally, I don't see how packing out your TP or wipes or tampons or whatever increases your odds of getting sick. You are already handling those items if you use them. All you have to do is drop them in a ziploc instead of dropping in the privy or ground. Use hand san afterwards and you should be fine.

[Traveler]

If so, then why doesn't this happen all the time on the AT? Everyone is wiping their own butts with TP (or sticks or srocks or something), and lots of AT hikers don't clean up very well. I think that getting sick from your own poop is a non-issue for the vast, vast majority of hikers.

More generally, I don't see how packing out your TP or wipes or tampons or whatever increases your odds of getting sick. You are already handling those items if you use them. All you have to do is drop them in a ziploc instead of dropping in the privy or ground. Use hand san afterwards and you should be fine.

Good post for a very serious issue. Bacteria from the lower colon, even your own, can make you ill and norovirus is common in the AT environment. Sometimes the symptoms are light and go away after a day or three and may not be associated with waste (its often believed to be food poisoning as opposed to contamination), others need to get medical attention which usually trigger the trail warnings we see. Suffice to say, this is why attention to hygiene is important not only to the person, but to the trail population overall.

To your point of packing out TP, wipes, tampons, etc, its a practice thats very important as the trail population increases. Unless a proper cat hole is dug, animals will dig up these things due to their chemical scents along with that of the human user, which accounts for a large percentage of hygienic product waste seen along the trail. Use of a small plastic bag and quick hand washing/sanitizing afterwards is a great recommendation I truly wish more people would follow.

[Hikes in Rain]

If so, then why doesn't this happen all the time on the AT? Everyone is wiping their own butts with TP (or sticks or srocks or something), and lots of AT hikers don't clean up very well. I think that getting sick from your own poop is a non-issue for the vast, vast majority of hikers.

More generally, I don't see how packing out your TP or wipes or tampons or whatever increases your odds of getting sick. You are already handling those items if you use them. All you have to do is drop them in a ziploc instead of dropping in the privy or ground. Use hand san afterwards and you should be fine.

It does happen all the time Usually gets passed off as "bad water". Remember the vomiting/diarrhea "epidemic" of a couple of years ago? I should have mentioned that good hand washing takes care of the threat.

[burger]

It does happen all the time Usually gets passed off as "bad water". Remember the vomiting/diarrhea "epidemic" of a couple of years ago? I should have mentioned that good hand washing takes care of the threat.

Wasn't that norovirus? This wasn't caused by people packing out their wipes or TP.

[Slo-go'en]

Wasn't that norovirus? This wasn't caused by people packing out their wipes or TP.

No, it wasn't. It was caused by poor hygiene, possibly as a result of handling said objects.

As a former caretaker who has maintained moldering privies, I can attest that TP does decompose pretty quickly. But nothing else does.

[burger]

No, it wasn't. It was caused by poor hygiene, possibly as a result of handling said objects.

As a former caretaker who has maintained moldering privies, I can attest that TP does decompose pretty quickly. But nothing else does.

Do you or anyone else have a definitive link with a doctor or scientist telling us what actually caused people to get sick?

More importantly, though, I still fail to see what that outbreak or any other has to do with the original discussion about packing out your wipes and tampons. Packing out those items (or even TP) poses ZERO additional risk because you don't have to handle them any more than you would if you drop them in the privy--just drop them in a ziploc and pack out the ziploc. Throw out the ziploc when you get to town.

Someone packing out their TP or wipes is no more a disease threat than the people who drop their non-biodegradable waste in the privy or leave it on the ground.

I think a lot of people here are just lazy about packing stuff out and are looking for excuses for their laziness. Sorry, but "poop causes disease" is not a reason that you shouldn't pack out your trash.

[Slo-go'en]

Someone packing out their TP or wipes is no more a disease threat than the people who drop their non-biodegradable waste in the privy or leave it on the ground.

I think a lot of people here are just lazy about packing stuff out and are looking for excuses for their laziness. Sorry, but "poop causes disease" is not a reason that you shouldn't pack out your trash.

I agree 100%.

That said, TP is fine to burry or leave in the privy hole. Just don't leave it laying on the ground. That's gross and ineffective. Anything else needs to be packed out, although burning your wipes is okay but you need a good campfire to do so as they don't burn very well on their own. I mostly forget to do so and throw them away in town with my other trash. It's not like these things are going to break your back.

Poop can cause disease so there is some reason for concern.

[Weather-man]

My bowel evacution SOP is as follows:

- Small amount of TP buried in the cat hole and rock/branch on top.

- A single wipe then to polish. First I wash my face with the wipe, then my hands and finally finish with the downstairs. This gets put in a small zip lock and packed out to next trash drop.

- Small amount of hand sanitizer (on my hands...), maybe some gold bond and off I go.

I've gone au natural using moss, grass, etc.. and honestly I believe that a small amount of TP in a hole has less impact. The TP blossoms do piss me off though.

[swjohnsey]

I wonder what Daniel Boone used? I carry my "poopie rag", 4" x 4" square of wash rag is a pint Ziploc.

[Googan]

So is it ok if I bury my tp. Seems like we have mixed reviews or opinions. I planned on burying my asswipe

[Hikes in Rain]

I do, as well. Unless it's a drought (which it never is if I'm hiking!), I also drop a match on the used paper to reduce the volume. Even with a surface scorching, there's plenty of coliform bacteria to aid in the breakdown. And wash your hands!

[egilbe]

So is it ok if I bury my tp. Seems like we have mixed reviews or opinions. I planned on burying my asswipe

There are enough privies/outhouses on the AT where taking a dump in the woods is not that common, for most people. In two years, I've only failed to reach a privy once, and that's because the trail was so damaged from blow downs that we couldn't find the campsite. Seems to be that the TP blossoms seen in the woods are more commonly from girls/women who go pee and just leave it there because its "icky"

[ChuckT]

If my gram-ma were still alive I would ask her what gals did "in the old-country". Strongly suspect that her answer would have been "just squat in the field!". Gram-ma had a way with words😊.

[ChuckT]

I've been following this thread cause it's something everybody, M/F, should think about.

[ChuckT]

Does seem that this discussion is LNT (Leave No Trace) from the bottom up.
Sorry but I could not resist😈.

[ChuckT]

It does seem that the ladies have more problems with this. Different plumbing obviously but less comfort on their part us guys can just salute a bush when the need arrives. In squatting we are all equal.

[nsherry61]

This topic, and the response to it, by people that have grown up in the United States completely blows my mind. This would not even be a topic in a forum focused in almost any other part of the world. WHY? Because, something like 80% of the worlds population cleans their behind with water, washes their hands with soap, and is done with it. Cleaner back side, less irritated anus issues, no paper waste products, and no need to hunt leaves, pine cones, or other natural, and less than comfortable materials to wipe with. A little water in the cat hole also speeds the decomposition process for waste in most cases.

Getting comfortable and skilled at cleaning with water and your fingers takes some practice. The right tilt of your behind when squatting is important for success. But, my gosh, what freedom and convenience it provides for back-country hygiene. For what it's worth, there is also no real need for a special squirt bottle, you can just poor water from your regular water bottle down your crack, keeping it well above and away from any of the messy parts. Practice poring water from your water bottle and directing it to where you want it while squatting in your bathtub or shower until your are comfortable and skilled enough to try it in the woods.

[Dogwood]

I was thinking the exact same thing Nsherry when I referred earlier to spoiled cultural norms that carry over to doing YOUR BIZ in outdoor environments AND IT RESULTING IN SOMEONE ELSE'S PROBLEM.
Obviously, the commentators here haven't much experienced "squatting" in India or many S. American, Indonesian, African, eastern, etc "venues."

[MuddyWaters]

Much of the world uses toilets like this:

https://vivevivir.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/asian-squat-toilet.jpg


The first one I encountered had a chamber on the wall, that when you pulled cord dumped water. It went all over the floor, and eventually down the hole.

Kind of incredible really. I believe in the benefits of squatting, but at home Ill still take a conventional flush toilet thank you.

[TexasBob]

Much of the world uses toilets like this:

https://vivevivir.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/asian-squat-toilet.jpg


The first one I encountered had a chamber on the wall, that when you pulled cord dumped water. It went all over the floor, and eventually down the hole.

Kind of incredible really. I believe in the benefits of squatting, but at home Ill still take a conventional flush toilet thank you.

Encountered toilets like this in older public buildings in Russia while on vacation. In a basket next to the toilet were newspapers but they weren't for reading.

[Googan]

now all of a sudden Americans don't know how to wipe their ass. lol

[egilbe]

My father delighted in telling a story of when he was stationed in Thailand during the Vietnam war. The Air Force had built a public toilet for villagers surrounding the base. The first time a villager used the bathroom, the Americans ran in and found footprints on the toilet seat.

[MuddyWaters]

Many (most?) americans are too fat to squat.

[swjohnsey]

I like to lean against a tree.

[Googan]

I like to lean against a tree.

lean back. isn't that a rap song?

[Turk6177]

I like to use wipes or alcohol wipes to clean my nether regions on a nightly basis to keep from getting a funk or rash. These go in my trash bag and I get rid of them when I cross a garbage can. For toilet paper, I cut full sized paper towels into 4 squares and carry them in a ziplock bag. I wet them prior to using them to clean up after going numero dos. The paper towel was much more robust than toilet paper. Wetting it can get you clean while using less paper. These should decompose quickly in the ground or in a privy.

[Weather-man]

This topic, and the response to it, by people that have grown up in the United States completely blows my mind. This would not even be a topic in a forum focused in almost any other part of the world. WHY? Because, something like 80% of the worlds population cleans their behind with water, washes their hands with soap, and is done with it. Cleaner back side, less irritated anus issues, no paper waste products, and no need to hunt leaves, pine cones, or other natural, and less than comfortable materials to wipe with. A little water in the cat hole also speeds the decomposition process for waste in most cases.

Getting comfortable and skilled at cleaning with water and your fingers takes some practice. The right tilt of your behind when squatting is important for success. But, my gosh, what freedom and convenience it provides for back-country hygiene. For what it's worth, there is also no real need for a special squirt bottle, you can just poor water from your regular water bottle down your crack, keeping it well above and away from any of the messy parts. Practice poring water from your water bottle and directing it to where you want it while squatting in your bathtub or shower until your are comfortable and skilled enough to try it in the woods.

IMHO the suggestion of using water and your hand to clean after defecation is irresponsible. This promulgates oral/fecal disease and parasite transmission and should be avoided.

The fact that this is done in parts of world doesn't substantiate its efficacy as effective hygiene but rather illustrates that many parts of the world are uneducated and still live in squalor.

[peakbagger]

One of the biggest growing markets for paper products worldwide is toilet paper. Its a pretty good indication of when a country is starting to move out of "third world status". Standard cellulose TP biodegrades rapidly in the soil if buried. Unlike standard paper products like book paper or copy paper, TP is 99.9% cellulose which is the easy to degrade portion of wood. It composts well. A far worse alternative are the ever expanding wipe market, these may look like paper and are advertised as biodegradable but generally there is an asterisk that in small print says that if facilities exist to recycle it than it is recyclable. It can take years to naturally biodegrade. Its a major issue with municipal waste water systems as it clogs up the systems. Folks with septic systems learn to not use it once they have their tank pumped out and the pumping service charges them extra to deal with the undissolved wipes

Regular TP doesn't biodegrade in snow and can be significant issue in area where large volumes of people camp in the winter. The only real option is to pack it out or burn it. Inevitably once spring arrives, it and the waste product on it eventually gets down into the watershed a good reason to treat all water in the backcountry.

One thing that many people don't think about TP is that the companies selling it want to sell large volumes of it. Many consumer brands are advertised as soft and fluffy but the trade off is sheet strength meaning the average person will use more sheets per use. Commercial grade TP tends to have a higher sheet strength so less sheets are needed and rolls don't need to be filled as often. Unfortunately if it gets too stiff, the guests complain, but if the "guests" are involuntary, like in jails or institutions, the TP purchased is not very fluffy I used to work for a papermill long ago that would do runs of toilet paper for the military. The specs were contrary to what was used for consumer grades. The military wanted strong lightweight sheets with no bulk. Drop a roll of the military stuff and it bounced but it contained far more sheets. It almost felt like lightweight newsprint rather than TP. Another thing to consider is sheet width, most folks are accustomed to roughly a square sheet but there really is no need for the width except to fit standard toilet paper holders. There is "skinny" toilet paper produced for institutional use designed for custom toiler paper holders but the trade off is that once a custom holder is installed the purchaser is stuck with buying from the same supplier so many institutions stick with standard width. Some thing as simple as folding a sheet in half versus using two sheets is something that just doesn't come up in the average persons mind but can substantially reduce usage.

[peakbagger]

Duplicate Post

[Leo L.]

IMHO the suggestion of using water and your hand to clean after defecation is irresponsible. This promulgates oral/fecal disease and parasite transmission and should be avoided.

This is true if done in an improper ways.

As long as cleanup with water is done properly (including soap and washing hands right afterwards) its as perfect as it ever can be.
This also includes the centuries old distinction left hand = unclean, right hand = clean, so shake hands and eat etc. only using right hand.

Its also true that the billions of people living in the poor have more urgent things in mind than TP.
But for those using water in the proper ways its a very huge improvement in hygienics, and outdoors life is not far from that kind of life, IMHO.
When hiking in the desert it just makes sense to do as desert dwellers do.

[Water Rat]

Given that there are those who have a hard enough time figuring out how to "dig a hole," I have no doubts they will also not grasp the concept of "proper cleanup" (if they were to use their hands). Norovirus already makes its annual appearance in the NOBO bubble, let's not add to that.

I practice proper hygiene because I do not want to get sick and I do not want to make others sick. I have seen everything from fastidious cleaning rituals, to the "I can be dirty - I live in the woods!" mentality out there. With that, I do not trust that everyone else gives it the thought I do.

Minimal use of tp for me. Bury it, burn it, or pack it - Depends on where I am hiking at the time.

1 wipe per day for personal hygiene and that is absolutely always packed out with me.

[squeezebox]

I like to use wipes or alcohol wipes to clean my nether regions on a nightly basis to keep from getting a funk or rash. These go in my trash bag and I get rid of them when I cross a garbage can. For toilet paper, I cut full sized paper towels into 4 squares and carry them in a ziplock bag. I wet them prior to using them to clean up after going numero dos. The paper towel was much more robust than toilet paper. Wetting it can get you clean while using less paper. These should decompose quickly in the ground or in a privy.

Use the cheap paper towels, they are more flimsy.

[kickatree]

Well dry sticks are good to get the clumps, but good old water is what I use to really clean the area. I'm a nurse and used to wiping butts. Just use one hand for the dirty work and the other always stays clean. Get the water ready so you don't fumble around. It ain't no bug deal. Wash your pooper scooper had well with soap before you go picking your nose with it. 😛

Sent from my LGL41C using Tapatalk

[Traillium]

Well dry sticks are good to get the clumps, but good old water is what I use to really clean the area. I'm a nurse and used to wiping butts. Just use one hand for the dirty work and the other always stays clean. Get the water ready so you don't fumble around. It ain't no bug deal. Wash your pooper scooper had well with soap before you go picking your nose with it. [emoji14]


Can't wait to try this!

Actually, since it's -16°C (nearly zero F), I think I might wait … and perhaps I'll carry my flush-bidet-bottle inside my jacket to keep it warm …


Bruce Traillium

[Traillium]

Can't wait to try this!

Actually, since it's -16°C (nearly zero F), I think I might wait … and perhaps I'll carry my flush-bidet-bottle inside my jacket to keep it warm …


Bruce Traillium

[GolfHiker]

golfhiker here, the op... who knew that a basic simple question would touch on so many different aspects of trail decorum. This went way beyond "do I remove the cardboard from my tp", and honestly, I have learned a ton. We have gone all over the world, had our usual sarcasm and sarcastic responses, had scientific data and references to support such, and so many experienced veterans who have tried it all. I may not give up my tp, but I will adopt a much stronger LNT, and cat hole procedure... not sure who is correct on all of the points, as many serious responses could lead to different answers, but I have truly been enlightened.

I don't want to sound inexperienced, as I'm not, but there may be others out there who simply did not know all about the finer points of doing your business in the woods or even privy's. As silly as that sounds, not too many of my hiking community discuss their personal hygiene program during our hike.

Thanks again to everyone for their thoughtful input.

[squeezebox]

I plan on using a bottom 1/2 of a 1/2 gal. milk jug as a wash basin. 1/2 a paper towel for the poopy wash, dump water, refill, then soapy butt wash, maybe dump again, final hand wash. Some variation should be good for lady parts also.

[Traveler]

I plan on using a bottom 1/2 of a 1/2 gal. milk jug as a wash basin. 1/2 a paper towel for the poopy wash, dump water, refill, then soapy butt wash, maybe dump again, final hand wash. Some variation should be good for lady parts also.

A good solution. You may want to think about something more easily packed and perhaps less weight though, maybe something like this?

http://www.antigravitygear.com/shop/hydration/...1-gallon-water-bag

[kibs]

Guess I'm in the opposite camp from most. I haven't carried TP in years, but won't go anywhere without wipes. They clean much better than TP, so a single wipe goes further. I can use it to clean my face and body, making it multi-purpose. A freezer bag ziplock makes packing them out clean and sanitary. Sometimes I let a stack airdry for a week or so, for lighter weight, and dehydrate them with a little water.

Yes, they're heavier than TP....but for me, being happy, clean, and comfortable, with no monkey butt is worth a couple extra ounces.

down in Texas they call that the red ass!!

[RangerZ]

A good solution. You may want to think about something more easily packed and perhaps less weight though, maybe something like this?

http://www.antigravitygear.com/shop/hydration/...1-gallon-water-bag


I use the bottom inch or so of a gallon milk jug. Doesn't weigh anything and packs fine with sleeping bag or down jacket stuffed in. I find it really helps me with hand/face/other washing.

[Rolls Kanardly]

Sanitary wipes: A 16 ounce container with 200 sheets weighs about 4 ounces when completely dry.
You can use a RX pill bottle to rehydrate. Three to four sheets rolled and tucked into a medium size pill bottle and about a tablespoon or so of water will rehydrate fairly quickly and be pretty water proof.
Zip locks should work although I have not tried them. As already noted the used sheets need to be packed out.

Rolls

[Traveler]

I use the bottom inch or so of a gallon milk jug. Doesn't weigh anything and packs fine with sleeping bag or down jacket stuffed in. I find it really helps me with hand/face/other washing.

Gotcha. For some reason I envisioned a plastic milk container cut down like a boat bailer....

[zelph]

This is a commercial TP. sheets are packed flat. Sheets are double layered, are tuff and yet soft to the touch. I scored some at a campground in MS and I'm working on a way to carry an inch thick of it for weekend trips.

Cottonell bath tissue.
http://restauranttory.com/cottonelle-hygienic-bathroom-tissue-2ply-250-pack-kcc-48280.asp?gclid=CJiW0KncmMoCFZODaQodsMcBUw

[Googan]

I like sandpaper

[RangerZ]

I like sandpaper


What grit size works for you?

[Googan]

What grit size works for you?
a quick fine wet sand.

[shelb]

The right tilt of your behind when squatting is important for success. .

This reminds me of the "Squatty Potty" advertisement I saw this morning! Funny video: http://boingboing.net/2015/10/09/unicorn-poop-and-squatty-potti.html