View Full Version : American Indian Trail Trees
lookin' for trees that look like this:
http://www.mountainstewards.org/trailtree/index.htm
any information is greatly appreciated.
Very, very interesting.
On that same link, I saw this introduction:
http://www.mountainstewards.org/indiantrailtrees.html
My only questions are with regard to how the age of these trees fits in with the indian tree theory. Any thoughts?
Tha Wookie
12-12-2005, 12:11
I think the tree on the border matches that description.
I read the GA Cherokee history link your site and it is appalling what America has done to the Cherokee.
Andrew Jackson does not deserve to be on any currency. What a racist pig. I'm going to go the bank and get some change.
The scary thing is that America now continues these policies under a similar leadership, representing the hateful greed mongering people that want to conquer everything.
Many days I feel my Cherokee blood far more than "American".
The Cheat
12-12-2005, 12:16
lookin' for trees that look like this:
http://www.mountainstewards.org/trailtree/index.htm
any information is greatly appreciated.
Awesome.
How old are these trees? Is somebody still doing this to trees or are these left from long ago?
these trees were manipulated like this up until "the removal" of the cherokee, who were the last of the "five tribes" to be removed, in 1877 (i think). they created a lot of them just before then to be sure to get back to their homes and stashed belongings. also, some of the cherokee, and other tribes i guess, escaped into the mountains of North Carolina and avoided being relocated. in which case, some of these trees could feasably be only a little over a houndred years old.
drought, and the pysical stress of bending the tree, over time, would also greatly stunt the growth. same thing happens to trees on rige tops, just by nature. as for the ones that look like they could be only 30 or 40 years old, taking all of this into consideration, i still can't explain. maybe younger indians in more recent times are practicing this tradition as not to loose it. i also gathered from reading that they only did this to white oaks, so obviously, if it ain't a white oak then it probably happend some other way.
i want to physicall locate as many of these trees as possible and record the gps coordinates, plot them on a map, and try to reconstruct, on paper, some of the trail routes.
just curious.
Tha Wookie
12-12-2005, 12:22
these trees were manipulated like this up until "the removal" of the cherokee, who were the last of the "five tribes" to be removed, in 1877 (i think). they created a lot of them just before then to be sure to get back to their homes and stashed belongings. also, some of the cherokee, and other tribes i guess, escaped into the mountains of North Carolina and avoided being relocated. in which case, some of these trees could feasably be only a little over a houndred years old.
drought, and the pysical stress of bending the tree, over time, would also greatly stunt the growth. same thing happens to trees on rige tops, just by nature. as for the ones that look like they could be only 30 or 40 years old, taking all of this into consideration, i still can't explain. maybe younger indians in more recent times are practicing this tradition as not to loose it. i also gathered from reading that they only did this to white oaks, so obviously, if it ain't a white oak then it probably happend some other way.
i want to physicall locate as many of these trees as possible and record the gps coordinates, plot them on a map, and try to reconstruct, on paper, some of the trail routes.
just curious.
Wow- sounds like a great project. I volunteer to hike them
Awesome.
How old are these trees? Is somebody still doing this to trees or are these left from long ago?
the oldest i've heard of is somewhere around 800-900 years. the youngest is open to interpretation.
i understand how to do this, but have not tried. different methods to get the tree to do different things.
once you start noticing them, they are everywhere. there is on at the Balance Rock in between Neel Gap and the Freeman Trail on the AT here in Georgia. i know of another in Joyce Kilmer SP, and i've seen pictures of 30 or 40 in North West Georgia.
Wow- sounds like a great project. I volunteer to hike them
i know there is a route you can pick up on the NOBO side of Blood Mountain, hike around the south side into Neel Gap and then down to Nottley Falls. several of these trees on this route and easy as pie to follow in the winter. i would imagine that there was once a massive network of interconnecting trails marked by these trees. evidently, from what i've read, possibly from northern Florida into southern Canada.
Here is a cool tree from the WB gallery. Probably natural. WHat do you think?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=1832&catid=searchresults&searchid=992
Area Cherokee In Violation Of Indian Removal Act Of 1830
December 7, 2005 | Issue 41•49 (http://www.theonion.com/content/index/4149)
DAHLONEGA, GA—Authorities issued a warrant for the arrest and forced relocation of local carpenter and half-blooded Cherokee Indian Jonathan Silvers Monday, when he was found to be in violation of the federal Indian Removal Act of 1830.
Enlarge Image (javascript: void(0);)http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Area-Cherokee-C.article.jpgHalf-blood Cherokee Jonathan Silvers outside his soon-to-be-vacated home.
"Mr. Silvers is in violation of federal law," said Col. Jack Kippler, who is leading the Bureau of Indian Affairs case against Silvers. "For this reason, he was taken into custody, and he is currently awaiting forcible resettlement on a Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma by the U.S. Army."
Once in Oklahoma, Silvers and his wife and two children will be permanently housed in a trailer home.
According to Silvers' lawyers, the Cherokee Indian did not realize he was living in violation of the 175-year-old act signed into law by Andrew Jackson, the seventh president of the U.S.
"When I told my wife that, under American federal law, we were going to have to leave everything behind and start over in Oklahoma, she was furious," Silvers said. "I blame myself: I totally blanked on the Indian Removal Act of 1830 when looking for a place to live."
The BIA is currently fielding applications from families who would like to live on Silvers' former land. According to Kippler, the Silvers' two-story, 1,600-square-foot house, valued at $145,000, would make an excellent home for a white family.
"It's a nice house," Kippler said. "They've taken very good care of the place, really shown it a lot of love. It has one and a half baths and a very nice finished basement with a TV den."
Army personnel say the Silvers will be given sufficient time to pack their belongings into the trunk of a police cruiser before they are escorted to their new and federally mandated homeland. Additionally, the U.S. government has taken responsibility for euthanizing the Silvers' dog, Spunky.
"I don't see the kids taking this too well," Silvers said. "Already, they're worrying about making new friends in Oklahoma... But what are you going to do? The law is the law."
"They'll be in tears the whole car ride there, I expect," he added.
Silvers told reporters that his forcible ejection under armed guard could not have come at a worse time.
"We just ordered a new couch from Ikea," Silvers said. "Who's going to get that? The new white family? Maybe I can cancel the order."
Mark Twoblood, an attorney with the National Native American Bar Association, has reviewed Silvers' claim to the land and home he purchased in 1997, and he says there is little he can do under the existing law.
"I've submitted Silvers' case to the Supreme Court, but it is very unlikely that they will add it to next term's docket," Twoblood said. "I have done what I can. I would like to wish him and his family good luck in their new home."
Twoblood reportedly gave the Silvers a decorative dreamcatcher as a housewarming gift.http://www.theonion.com/content/themes/onion/assets/terminator.gif
**************
these trees were manipulated like this up until "the removal" of the cherokee, who were the last of the "five tribes" to be removed, in 1877 (i think). they created a lot of them just before then to be sure to get back to their homes and stashed belongings. also, some of the cherokee, and other tribes i guess, escaped into the mountains of North Carolina and avoided being relocated. in which case, some of these trees could feasably be only a little over a houndred years old.
drought, and the pysical stress of bending the tree, over time, would also greatly stunt the growth. same thing happens to trees on rige tops, just by nature. as for the ones that look like they could be only 30 or 40 years old, taking all of this into consideration, i still can't explain. maybe younger indians in more recent times are practicing this tradition as not to loose it. i also gathered from reading that they only did this to white oaks, so obviously, if it ain't a white oak then it probably happend some other way.
i want to physicall locate as many of these trees as possible and record the gps coordinates, plot them on a map, and try to reconstruct, on paper, some of the trail routes.
just curious.
correction: "the removal" of the five civilized tribes was complete by the end of 1838, not 1877.
also, most of these trees were left when the area was logged. they would have been useless to logging companies due to their bent shape.
Here is a cool tree from the WB gallery. Probably natural. WHat do you think?
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=1832&catid=searchresults&searchid=992
definantly some sort of marker tree. not to point direction but to mark the spot. i don't know the significance of the arch and it is definantly less common than the typical "pointer" tree, but certainly done on purpose.
do you know where in georgia it is?
Dances with Mice
12-12-2005, 13:25
... i also gathered from reading that they only did this to white oaks, so obviously, if it ain't a white oak then it probably happend some other way.... A lot of the photos simply look like damage caused by blowdowns. I think that's what probably caused this arch in two relatively young trees just north of Springer:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=5768&c=665&userid=1030
and (better photo, without that ugly guy in it...)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1832/password/0/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
A lot of the photos simply look like damage caused by blowdowns. I think that's what probably caused this arch in two relatively young trees just north of Springer:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=5768&c=665&userid=1030
and (better photo, without that ugly guy in it...)
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/1832/password/0/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
pretty damn strange none the less
I was doing a day hike in Bankhead Nat'l Forest in AL just a few months ago and noted several of the bent trees. I had heard that they were used for Indian trails/navigation. I do have several pics of these and also would volunteer to document them in that same area.
I was doing a day hike in Bankhead Nat'l Forest in AL just a few months ago and noted several of the bent trees. I had heard that they were used for Indian trails/navigation. I do have several pics of these and also would volunteer to document them in that same area.
what trail were you on and how do i get there?
RockyTrail
12-12-2005, 16:47
I've seen a lot of trees like this but I doubt they are 167+ years old, even in harsh mountain conditions. If a few examples were bored to count the rings, maybe they could be shown to be that old.
My personal opinion is that it's tempting believe these are "marker" trees but very tough to prove. There is a huge number of blowdowns and any one of those could bend a sapling the same way.
I think it would be really interesting if someone could prove these trees are really what we think they are...and more power to them I'm looking forward to seeing the data.
I've seen a lot of trees like this but I doubt they are 167+ years old, even in harsh mountain conditions. If a few examples were bored to count the rings, maybe they could be shown to be that old.
My personal opinion is that it's tempting believe these are "marker" trees but very tough to prove. There is a huge number of blowdowns and any one of those could bend a sapling the same way.
I think it would be really interesting if someone could prove these trees are really what we think they are...and more power to them I'm looking forward to seeing the data.
i know some of these trees have been bored to validate age. most have not. a lot of folks think that harms the tree and won't let you do it. i'm sure i'll spend way too much time on this, and i can see being run off of a couple of farmer's land for sure, but it'll definantly be interesting to try and figure out.
I lucked onto this link that talks about estimating the age of a White Oak. They can live for 300 years+. They remark that while the diameter of a tree will vary with growing conditions, there are certain averages for a White Oak. A relatively small tree--even an average one--can be older than it looks.
http://www.athensclarkecounty.com/documents/pdf/landscape_management/tcn_age.pdf
Tim Rich
12-12-2005, 17:54
I think the tree on the border matches that description.
I read the GA Cherokee history link your site and it is appalling what America has done to the Cherokee.
Andrew Jackson does not deserve to be on any currency. What a racist pig. I'm going to go the bank and get some change.
The scary thing is that America now continues these policies under a similar leadership, representing the hateful greed mongering people that want to conquer everything.
Many days I feel my Cherokee blood far more than "American".
"hateful greed mongering people that want to conquer everything"
True to form, Wookie, your blind hatred has you trying to equate everything with your political hallucinations. Bush is hateful because he's putting American lives on the line for Iraqi freedom? Do you think they're conquered and we're plundering their land? We're building schools and building an infrastructure with our money, not even touching their oil. It's sad, really, that you can't acknowledge this.
On another topic, I saw your photos at REI, and they look great. Do you have any other pricing options other than the $295 a pop?
Take Care,
Tim
Tim Rich
12-12-2005, 17:58
I've seen a lot of trees like this but I doubt they are 167+ years old, even in harsh mountain conditions. If a few examples were bored to count the rings, maybe they could be shown to be that old.
My personal opinion is that it's tempting believe these are "marker" trees but very tough to prove. There is a huge number of blowdowns and any one of those could bend a sapling the same way.
I think it would be really interesting if someone could prove these trees are really what we think they are...and more power to them I'm looking forward to seeing the data.
I've seen a number of these trees on old woods roads in Alabama. Many old dirt roads were cut that pushed over trees during grading, and there were no standards to provide for shoulders or cleared rights of way. Once a tree's pushed over but the roots remain functional, an upward pointing limb can become the dominant "trunk" of the tree.
This is a really neat project, though.
RockyTrail
12-13-2005, 12:41
I lucked onto this link that talks about estimating the age of a White Oak. They can live for 300 years+. They remark that while the diameter of a tree will vary with growing conditions, there are certain averages for a White Oak. A relatively small tree--even an average one--can be older than it looks.
http://www.athensclarkecounty.com/documents/pdf/landscape_management/tcn_age.pdf
Very interesting....in their example the white oak they measured was 120 years old and 4 feet in diameter at chest high level. Most of the ones I've seen were not 4 feet dia but who knows, maybe they ARE that old!
MDSHiker
12-13-2005, 12:53
Interesting link...thanks for sharing.
I live in North Alabama in the foothills of the Appalachian Mtns. My property line is the old cherokee border called "Cherokee School Boundry Line". I'll check out the woods nearby to see if I can locate any of these trees.
it seems that the best way to tell the difference between a trail tree and a natural occurance is the presence of marks, that look like stripes, at the base of the tree and around the horizontal part of the trunk where it was tied down. the sinews that they used were tied very tight and perminantly altered the bark where they were. the ones i've seen like this have a tiger stripe section of marks from the base to the beginning of the bend where they tied the tree to itself. most of the ones i've seen around here are called "horse and rider" trees, and the bend is much higher off the ground (maybe 8 -15 feet) as to be easily seen from a fast moving horse. these are also much newer than the ones that were bent at 3-5 feet, and they did it a little different. the older ones were bent by placing a Y shaped branch where they wanted it to bend, and then they bent it over and tied it to the ground. these have the sinew marks on the horizontal part of the tree only, but it's still unmistakeable. they also artistically made strange looking noses where they terminated the horizontal growth and let the tree retun back to vertical. some of the noses were hollowed out to place messages in.
just some things to differentiate between mother nature and man.
flyfisher
12-13-2005, 18:12
lookin' for trees that look like this:
http://www.mountainstewards.org/trailtree/index.htm
any information is greatly appreciated.
This one is about 15 miles from the south end of Shenandoah National Park, on the AT:
http://www.imrisk.com/shenandoahsouth/PB220013_web.JPG
This one is about 15 miles from the south end of Shenandoah National Park, on the AT:
http://www.imrisk.com/shenandoahsouth/PB220013_web.JPG
flyfisher
thank you for that info, greatly appreciated.
Dances with Mice
12-13-2005, 19:36
A couple, or four, years ago there was a ruckus raised over cutting of two trees near my home believed by some to contain markings left by Cherokee Indians. The trees, called 'Talking Trees' because of the markings, were on land zoned for a subdivision and the owners of the land wanted them cut. To be exact, one tree had already fallen and the land owner wanted to cut the other. The fallen tree was determined to be many years younger than the age needed to contain authentic native carvings so protection was denied and the other tree ultimately came down.
A believer in the tree markings created a website telling the story from his perspective.
http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/sites/forsythtrees6.htm
Hikerhead
12-13-2005, 19:47
This is all very interesting. I've come across many trees like this but never thought they could be an ancient trail blaze made my native indians.
A couple, or four, years ago there was a ruckus raised over cutting of two trees near my home believed by some to contain markings left by Cherokee Indians. The trees, called 'Talking Trees' because of the markings, were on land zoned for a subdivision and the owners of the land wanted them cut. To be exact, one tree had already fallen and the land owner wanted to cut the other. The fallen tree was determined to be many years younger than the age needed to contain authentic native carvings so protection was denied and the other tree ultimately came down.
A believer in the tree markings created a website telling the story from his perspective.
http://www.ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/sites/forsythtrees6.htm
i remember something about that. i was working in Buford at the time. i know there is a tree in joyce kilmer SP that is supposed to be a talking tree, but it looks like it's got big tumors from the ground to about 30 or 40 feet up all the way around the trunk (where the limbs should be). it's in the old growth forrest. it don't look nothin like that one in hokey pokey lookin thing in Cumming though.
When I was a kid there was such a tree on one of the main streets (rt5/113) in Fryeburg Maine. It was a large old oak and the limb was shaped into a perfect circle. We called it the dounut tree.
The tree fell or was taken down some 40 years ago, but the property owners kept the "dounut" in a showcase in their front yard.
This was a fairly famous landmark, I remember there were post cards.
I dought it is still there.
http://vintagemaineimages.com/bin/Detail?ln=6169&in_size=298
OK it was an elm, and it really was called the doughnut tree