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rickb
12-13-2005, 20:33
I never carved my name in a shelter log. I was brought up to equate that with stealing-- or worse.

That said, I kind of enjoy nicely carved names and dates on the logs. Especially the older ones. I'm not saying I wish I could revisit a shelter and see my initials from 25 years ago, but.....

Anyway, I thought I'd post an anonymous poll and see what whiteblazers think.

general
12-13-2005, 20:49
name and date goes in the register

Moxie00
12-13-2005, 21:01
I carved my initials in"things" when I was nine and had my first knife. By the time I was 10 I knew it was vandalism. I guess alot of folks never matured past nine. ( There are exceptions, there is a bar on Cape Cod that encourages people to carve their initials in the bar or a table- when folks come back they look for their initials but don't find them as the bar and tables are sold as a fundraiser and replaced every few years)

Uncle Silly
12-13-2005, 21:13
but while i couldn't see the registers from last year (much less longer ago), the shelter graffiti was always there... it was interesting to look around and see what'd been carved. it's superficial; is there any real damage?

general
12-13-2005, 21:13
I carved my initials in"things" when I was nine and had my first knife. By the time I was 10 I knew it was vandalism. I guess alot of folks never matured past nine. ( There are exceptions, there is a bar on Cape Cod that encourages people to carve their initials in the bar or a table- when folks come back they look for their initials but don't find them as the bar and tables are sold as a fundraiser and replaced every few years)

i'll be damned! someone finally figured out a way to charge you for your own name.

general
12-13-2005, 21:15
but while i couldn't see the registers from last year (much less longer ago), the shelter graffiti was always there... it was interesting to look around and see what'd been carved. it's superficial; is there any real damage?

carvin' names ain't so bad. it's more when someone uses some charcoal out of the fire pit and then that gets all over everything else.

Tin Man
12-13-2005, 21:19
It's when the mice carve their names that really burns me.

Lone Wolf
12-13-2005, 21:23
I have a special knife just for shelter carving. Shelters suck.

TJ aka Teej
12-13-2005, 21:51
"Earl V. Shaffer '48" is carved into one of the small lean-tos at Katahdin Stream Campground. Dunno if he did the carving.

bfitz
12-13-2005, 22:02
Never bothered me any, sometimes it's pretty funny. As long as it's not obscene, I'm OK with it. I like all the lover's hearts carved in the floors of fire towers, too.
I don't think shelter's suck...they rock when its raining!

general
12-13-2005, 22:05
i like to write s**t with the blood of mice

bfitz
12-13-2005, 22:10
i like to write s**t with the blood of mice
You mean you like to write that particular word, or just things in general...?

general
12-13-2005, 22:43
just things in general. you know time and date of kill, weight of mouse. things like that.

Tin Man
12-13-2005, 23:01
And I thought that was the mice writing the time and date they successfully attacked and drew blood from a hiker.

Just Jeff
12-13-2005, 23:01
I like it when ultralighters carve their pack weight in the shelters. It's sensual. :o

little bear
12-13-2005, 23:18
i dont mind when other hikers carve there names in the shelter. its the AT it is about memories, you come back to that shelter 25-30 years later with you kids and you can tell them stories about your hike.

Lugnut
12-13-2005, 23:52
George Washington carved his name on a log in the Cold Springs shelter. I doubt it was him though the shelter could be old enough. It was probably that joker from Damascus with the special knife. :D

Dances with Mice
12-14-2005, 00:43
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=5766&c=665&userid=1030

Trail Dog
12-14-2005, 02:51
there are so many shelters. It would get annoying if people did their initials and date in every shelter they passed. but honestly if you had a special trip and you decide to do a small little something in a log what substantial damage does it really do.

Although when i find it in the new shelters it sort of gets to me in a bad way. My favorite is the poetry i found on my first hike on the AT

In a shelter in NY this was written on the ceiling:

As I hike down this trail
I pray to go my knees don’t fail
And as I climb back to the top
I dream of AC and cans of pop.

gumby
12-14-2005, 09:07
just things in general. you know time and date of kill, weight of mouse. things like that.

Do you weigh them in ounces or grams???:)

general
12-14-2005, 09:20
Do you weigh them in ounces or grams???:)

much better to have ounces than grams.:sun

Moxie00
12-14-2005, 09:36
If carving on shelters is OK then it must be really cool to spray paint rocks and ledges. There are some wonderful examples near Duncannon and just south of Daleville. Carving names onto live trees is another great way to leave your mark for future generations. One really cool thing I saw was a father showing his son how to chip his initials into the sidewalk at the tower walk to Clingman's Dome. He told his son it wiould be there for years. As a trail maintainer I have been thinking about taking my chain saw and clear cutting my initials in tall letters on Saddleback Mountain so folks flying over in Airlines can admire them. Grafetti is good and should be encouraged both on the trail and in our homes, cities and public buildings.:eek:

Lone Wolf
12-14-2005, 09:42
What's the big deal? Ancient civilizations painted s**t on walls thousands of years ago. We think it's cool today.

Lone Wolf
12-14-2005, 09:47
www.nps.gov/elmo/

general
12-14-2005, 09:56
long live s.t.r. and the red pen. always funny stuff, not always in the best places.

rickb
12-14-2005, 10:00
The names carved into the rock on the summit of Mt. Monadnock (NH, not on AT) are kind of cool.

the goat
12-14-2005, 10:08
If carving on shelters is OK then it must be really cool to spray paint rocks and ledges. There are some wonderful examples near Duncannon and just south of Daleville.

don't forget just north of palmerton where some redneck thought i'd be cool to paint a 10ft american flag on a rock. these things irk me b/c it's defacing something natural & leaving a permanent trace. but i don't care a/b shelter carving really b/c the shelter itself is a trace.

Lone Wolf
12-14-2005, 10:11
don't forget just north of palmerton where some redneck thought i'd be cool to paint a 10ft american flag on a rock. these things irk me b/c it's defacing something natural & leaving a permanent trace. but i don't care a/b shelter carving really b/c the shelter itself is a trace.
And close to that flag painted in black is KILL BIN LADEN. I have photos of both.

the goat
12-14-2005, 10:15
And close to that flag painted in black is KILL BIN LADEN. I have photos of both.

ha, yeah, i forgot a/b that....i guess it's to remind any thru/section hiikers to take his ass out if they see him.:D

Lone Wolf
12-14-2005, 10:18
The photos are on my fridge. :D

the goat
12-14-2005, 10:21
The photos are on my fridge. :D

is that so you'll remember to take his ass out in case he's hidin' behind your milk or o.j.?:D

Skyline
12-14-2005, 10:47
As a shelter maintainer, I appreciate it when hikers DON'T vandalize it. And in SNP, that's what it is considered, and we are expected to obliterate it. It makes a lot of extra work for us, and our donated time could be put to better use. Please don't do it.

In urban areas it has been proven that a little graffiti begets a lot of graffiti, which begets a general decline in the quality of a neighborhood by affecting the way people disrespect it, and each other. To an extent, I think this is also true at some AT shelters. The ones with the most graffiti often are also the most trashed in other ways.

Um, I said please.

RWBlue
12-14-2005, 10:54
Like many other things there is a time and a place to leave your mark. If the astronauts carved their named into the moon, I would consider it cool. If a hiker carves his name into a rock in a national park, it is just graffiti. As far as into the shelter walls, it is borderline graffiti.
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Maybe someone should put up carving posts, adding a new one every year until the area around the shelter looks like a small fort.

Footslogger
12-14-2005, 11:20
I never did carve my name in any shelters during my thru but I must admit that I spent hours, collectively speaking, sitting in shelters and reading the names of all who had. Leaving your trail name/year behind doesn't bother me but some of the other sensless carvings got on my nerves a bit.

'Slogger

blairspangler
12-15-2005, 07:03
You folks saying "what could a little grafitti hurt" are probably the same ones who insist that you pack out every little piece of trash that you see or make (which is a good idea). If you carve into a shelter/tree/rock/etc. you may as well be laying down a piece of trash on the trail. What could a little piece of trash in big huge woods hurt? Besides, unlike in centuries past we have pens and paper and cameras that are easy to take with us to remember where we were and when. Like it was said before, that's what the shelter/trail journals are for. Plus we have these great devises called computers to communicate with. We no longer need to use rocks/logs/trees/etc.!!!

Uncle Silly
12-15-2005, 07:17
You folks saying "what could a little grafitti hurt" are probably the same ones who insist that you pack out every little piece of trash that you see or make


naahhh. the latter sounds a lot more anal... the former sounds like someone's one toke over the line. :D

Newb
12-15-2005, 08:54
There's a tree on the trail (living tree) just south of Crampton Gap in Maryland. More specifically, it's about 20 yards south of the old gap dirt road south of Crampton Gap. Anyways, people have been carving that tree for 60 years. Though I think it's ugly, it's still cool to see old initials from people who were enjoying the trail decades ago. I'm so conflicted.

peter_pan
12-15-2005, 09:09
Knives big enough to carve weigh too much for ultra lighters to carry...:D

Pan

Deb
12-15-2005, 09:29
At the Morgan Stewart shelter south of Rt. 55 in New York, someone spray painted 'Hotel California' on one whole side this summer. It was ugly and it made me mad.

Just say no to carving, graffiti, spray-painting and markers. They're all the same. LNT.

Lone Wolf
12-15-2005, 09:32
LNT. Tear down all shelters and build no more.

sliderule
12-15-2005, 10:25
I have a special knife just for shelter carving. Shelters suck.

Wolf, what's your address? The next time I pass through Damascus I would like stop by and do a little carving on your house. After all, I am so important that I think that everyone should know that I was there. Don't you agree?

Or would you consider that arrogant, self-centered and juvenile?

Lone Wolf
12-15-2005, 10:27
Get over your bad self.:cool:

weary
12-15-2005, 11:25
Grafitti in shelters is against the law. Within days of the completion of the East Branch shelter in Maine, someone scarred the fresh logs with a two foot message written with an indelible felt pen.

One of the builders was so incensed he called the AT ranger in Harpers Ferry. The culprits were tracked down, made to remove the damage, and I think pay a fine.

However, many of us have been equally guilty one time or another. On one winter trip to Katahdin many years ago one in the party spied on shelter logs the initials of our Sierra Club leader, a stickler for "Leave no trace." He was greatly embarrassed.

On a scenic rocky hillside near Baxter's Russell Pond Campground are -- or were -- words proclaiming that the trail had been cut in 1959 by Buzz Caverly, apparently when he was a young ranger stationed at Russell Pond. Buzz retired last summer as director of Baxter State Park after serving the park for 46 years.

I was at a meeting last week where Buzz was rightly honored for his years of dedicated service to the park and especially for his dedication to Baxter's dream of a "forever wild" park.

Weary

bfitz
12-15-2005, 16:29
....However, many of us have been equally guilty one time or another. On one winter trip to Katahdin many years ago one in the party spied on shelter logs the initials of our Sierra Club leader, a stickler for "Leave no trace." He was greatly embarrassed.....
Well, since the shelter itslef constitutes a trace, I'd say he was leaving a trace on a trace, not signifcantly altering the trace's effect on The Place Where No Trace Should Be Left. So long as it wasn't intentionally offensive, sokay in in my book.

rickb
12-15-2005, 16:43
he was leaving a trace on a trace

I think that was Arlo Guthrie's defense in his classic folk tune "Alice's Restaurant".

Sorry to digress, but I wonder if any thru hiker ever took a detour to knock on his door in the Berkshires.

Skyline
12-15-2005, 16:46
LNT. Tear down all shelters and build no more.

I don't think anyone's gonna tear down the existing shelters, but in the future it would make more sense to design/prepare clusters of tentsites instead of new shelters.

Moxie00
12-15-2005, 17:12
Many people don't stay in shelters, they may snore, it's possible they don't like people who do snore. Perhaps they are loaners, or are afraid of mice. Of course they may want the privacy of a tent so they can have sex, or they may want to even have sex alone. Some even put tents up in shelters to get the best of both worlds. No one has to stay in a shelter so there is no reason to deface them.

RockyTrail
12-15-2005, 17:42
However, many of us have been equally guilty one time or another. On one winter trip to Katahdin many years ago one in the party spied on shelter logs the initials of our Sierra Club leader, a stickler for "Leave no trace." He was greatly embarrassed.
Weary

Maybe you were too hard on this fellow.

Think about it :-? ...if the shelter itself is a trace, then carving into it would remove some of the trace, so wouldn't this be consistent with LNT principles? :)

He was just trying be LNT before LNT was cool! :) hee hee

rickb
12-15-2005, 17:51
For me the big plus to carving you name in a shelter (hypothetically speaking) would be to take notice of it many years later, and spark a memory.

FWIW, I've always thought that thru hikers might want to do that in another fashion by leaving a extra detailed entry in the registers in the White Mountain Huts. They keep the old registers on site forever, so when you get back that way again, you can see if anything you wrote decades before made any sense. :D

Spirit Walker
12-15-2005, 17:53
Rick - re: Arlo - there was a hiker in 1992, Moses, who did go to visit him. I don't know what really happened as the hiker was something of a teller of tall tales, but he claimed to have gotten in the door.

Footslogger
12-15-2005, 17:56
FWIW, I've always thought that thru hikers might want to do that in another fashion by leaving a extra detailed entry in the registers in the White Mountain Huts. They keep the old registers on site forever, so when you get back that way again, you can see if anything you wrote decades before made any sense. :D
========================================
I actually had the experience during my thru in 2003 of locating my wife's entries in the hut registers from her hike in 2001. I remembered her stories from the Whites but it was sure fun reading her entries. Made me feel like we were out there together ...and made me all the more anxious to finish my hike and get home to her.

'Slogger

rickb
12-15-2005, 18:02
Spirit Walker, Re: Arlo: That doesn't surprise me.

I'm not sure where I heard it-- perhaps a Boston area TV "Magazine" show --but for some reason I think people used to be welcomed at his door all the time. I remember thinking at the time that for a hiker into folk music, that would be an amazing experience.

I don't know if he even lives in Stockbridge anymore, but there is a Guthrie Center there in an old church that looks kind of neat (on the internet, anyway).

Lugnut
12-15-2005, 18:03
Many people don't stay in shelters, they may snore, it's possible they don't like people who do snore. Perhaps they are loaners, or are afraid of mice. Of course they may want the privacy of a tent so they can have sex, or they may want to even have sex alone. Some even put tents up in shelters to get the best of both worlds. No one has to stay in a shelter so there is no reason to deface them.

I'm sure that somewhere in your list is the reason, or reasons, Lone Wolf doesn't like shelters. We can only speculate on which ones they are. :D

the goat
12-15-2005, 18:08
FWIW, I've always thought that thru hikers might want to do that in another fashion by leaving a extra detailed entry in the registers in the White Mountain Huts. They keep the old registers on site forever, so when you get back that way again, you can see if anything you wrote decades before made any sense. :D

yeah, there's a shelter in NY that keeps registers around for several years back. i read my '01 entry when i came though in '03, and yes; tho twas made only two years previous, it made no sense.:D

FFTorched
12-15-2005, 18:13
The photos are on my fridge. :D

Whoa I think we are all missing something important. L. Wolf has a fridge....That is something surpising coming from the guy that curses shelters. I expected an antique icebox.

Uncle Silly
12-15-2005, 19:39
rick, re: arlo, i would've if i'd known. apparently his place isn't far from the Cookie Lady's place in Washington, Mass, but i didn't hear about it until i got to Dalton. since i get to go back there sometime to finish my northern section, i'm definitely thinking of stopping by along the way.

LIVESTRONG
12-16-2005, 00:33
I remember seeing "SMOKE WEED" I think in almost every shelter, usually wasnt carved but written in charcoal. He gets around.

bfitz
12-16-2005, 01:06
I remember seeing "SMOKE WEED" I think in almost every shelter, usually wasnt carved but written in charcoal. He gets around.
I have to say it cracked me up...remember the bong peeking out from behind the smokies? I forget wich shelter that was...

Shutterbug
12-16-2005, 01:35
don't forget just north of palmerton where some redneck thought i'd be cool to paint a 10ft american flag on a rock. these things irk me b/c it's defacing something natural & leaving a permanent trace. but i don't care a/b shelter carving really b/c the shelter itself is a trace.

Speaking of painted rocks, what about the entrance to Baxter State Park in Maine?

Lone Wolf
12-16-2005, 01:38
Imagine if somebody defaced that painted rocK? The horror!:cool:

lobster
12-16-2005, 14:22
The artwork at the entrance to Baxter has been vandalized before. Any idea when that nice seen was put on it originally? Doesn't seem like the spur of the moment hijinx of a midnight drunk.

Those log books are usually a 1 time writing and you never see them again. That's why I think going back and seeing a carving you made from the old days might be cool. Notice I said might. I ain't ever dun it!

I see that in the "Walking with Freedom" video, that guy gave Lion King the tour of all those famous homes of folk like Norman Rockwell and Guthrie.

By the way, I agree that carving your initials does remove a tiny amount of the wooden structure. Thus, carving is LNT!

How many names and dates would have to be carved before a shelter collapsed?

The Solemates
12-16-2005, 15:33
If carving on shelters is OK then it must be really cool to spray paint rocks and ledges. There are some wonderful examples near Duncannon and just south of Daleville. Carving names onto live trees is another great way to leave your mark for future generations. One really cool thing I saw was a father showing his son how to chip his initials into the sidewalk at the tower walk to Clingman's Dome. He told his son it wiould be there for years. As a trail maintainer I have been thinking about taking my chain saw and clear cutting my initials in tall letters on Saddleback Mountain so folks flying over in Airlines can admire them. Grafetti is good and should be encouraged both on the trail and in our homes, cities and public buildings.:eek:

or what would be really cool is if they spray painted that rock outside of harper's ferry that some famous guy stood on and talked to a bunch of people. id love to see people's initials on that one. or better yet, the fact that laura loves john will be so awesome to see a few decades from now.:mad:

Blue Jay
12-17-2005, 09:53
Those who carve initials, should have initials carved into them. That wasn't on the poll so I didn't vote.

Skyline
12-17-2005, 11:42
Those log books are usually a 1 time writing and you never see them again. That's why I think going back and seeing a carving you made from the old days might be cool. (SNIP)

Some of the AT maintenance clubs have a policy of archiving the filled registers at their headquarters, where anyone can make arrangements to see them if they want to. PATC has some very old and historical registers available for viewing at its Vienna, VA headquarters, for example.

If you want to leave a message at a shelter for others to see, or just let the hiking community know you were there, the register's the place to write it. That's why registers exist. I think most of the folks who carve/spraypaint/charcoal-write on shelter structures, rocks, or trees are ego-maniacs who are afraid their 15 minutes of fame will go unnoticed.

Furlough
12-17-2005, 14:43
A couple of productive alternatives to carving, painting or charcoaling the shelters.
1. use the time to clean out the shelter or privy
2. Pick up trash around the shelter
3. Look for some trail maintenance you can do

Mouse
12-17-2005, 15:21
Like many other things there is a time and a place to leave your mark. If the astronauts carved their named into the moon, I would consider it cool.

This image sprang to my mind of astronaut unzipping spacesuit and irreverantly making yellow initials in the moon dust.
:rolleyes:

Lugnut
12-17-2005, 18:53
Just keep in mind that space is a vaccum! You would probably have a record breaker just before the explosion. :D

Nightwalker
12-23-2005, 04:35
What's the big deal? Ancient civilizations painted s**t on walls thousands of years ago. We think it's cool today.
So you don't mind if I tag your house? Cool!

Heater
12-23-2005, 06:14
How many names and dates would have to be carved before a shelter collapsed?

On the average, 77,157.

Chef2000
12-23-2005, 10:23
Being a shelter maintainer and long distance hiker it bugs me. I live ina major metro area were I have to look at senseless graffiti everyday on buildings, signs and sidewalks etc. Its ugly.

Not to mention the cost of removal

MOWGLI
12-23-2005, 11:38
Being a shelter maintainer and long distance hiker it bugs me. I live ina major metro area were I have to look at senseless graffiti everyday on buildings, signs and sidewalks etc. Its ugly.

Not to mention the cost of removal

Well said Chef. How ya doin' Bro? What shelter are you maintaining?

Merry Christmas.

Little Bear - 2000

Chef2000
12-23-2005, 14:40
Hey Little bear,

Ihave been taking care of October Mt shelter for a few years, its in the 4 mile section i maintain from County rd thru Pittsfield rd. One entire wall outside wall is carved upped. This season I am going to restain it and fill in some of the deeper gouges. Just a heads up the AMC does try and find the carvers particularly if a hiker carves their real trail name.

Merry christmas little Bear. I was in Colorado this past summer and this April will be in GA/NC. june or July doing the Long Trail Again

K0OPG
12-23-2005, 23:21
Why is this even a topic? What are we teaching everyday???
LEAVE NO TRACE!!! :confused:

the goat
12-24-2005, 09:02
Why is this even a topic? What are we teaching everyday???
LEAVE NO TRACE!!! :confused:

isn't the shelter itself a rather large trace?:-?

weary
12-24-2005, 10:24
isn't the shelter itself a rather large trace?:-?
Yup. You've finally noticed.

Shelters have been part of the Appalachian Trail environment since the beginning. I persoally think the era of shelters should have ended when trail use became so heavy that everyone had to carry their own shelter. But nostalgia is a difficult thing to overcome.

However, it doesn't follow that because shelters are an anachronism it's okay to vandalize them.

Nor is true that because some traces are inevitable, it's therefore okay to create even more.

Weary

Mags
12-24-2005, 11:44
I persoally think the era of shelters should have ended when trail use became so heavy that everyone had to carry their own shelter. But nostalgia is a difficult thing to overcome.


I think there should be astop on shelter building. The new shelters being built are a far cry from the simple three sided lean-tos originally on the AT. Many hours that could be used for other needed projects.

I am not so radical as to say "burn all the shelters" down, but maybe just maintain what is currently available and gradually phase in harderned tent sites instead of shelters.

As Weary said though, there is too much tradition for this act to happen.

Skyline
12-24-2005, 12:15
I think there should be astop on shelter building. The new shelters being built are a far cry from the simple three sided lean-tos originally on the AT. Many hours that could be used for other needed projects.

I am not so radical as to say "burn all the shelters" down, but maybe just maintain what is currently available and gradually phase in harderned tent sites instead of shelters.

As Weary said though, there is too much tradition for this act to happen.


There is a growing number of AT enthusiasts who are not so willing to bow to shelter-building as a worthy tradition. For those who have been to Annapolis Rocks recently, it is a stunning example of what might be the future of AT overnight accommodations. It and similar tentsite-centric changes in thinking was the subject of a lengthy feature in ATC's magazine a year or two ago.

Basically, volunteers with PATC and ATC took an overused, trashed camping area (without shelter) that some said "screamed" for a big, new shelter and did something revolutionary. They closed it. Obliterated the existing tentsites all close to each other that had become muddy pits and rendered them unuseable by placing huge rocks and other obstructions to camping. Then they cut new dispersed tentsites not too far away into moderately sloped sidehill--so that because of the terrain, hikers would not be likely to establish multiple tentsites close to each other. Subsequently, these sidehill sites were improved to inhibit erosion. Other amenities were added, and a seasonal caretaker program instituted. The result is a scattering of better tentsites and almost everything else you'd find at a shelter except the shelter structure itself.

There are activists in a few AT maintaining clubs who agree with us Mags that building more shelters is not the way to go. I think the powers-that-be are at least open to listening to us now. For one thing, for a lot less money, materials, and skilled labor, they can construct a greater number of really good and well-located tentsite clusters to accommodate many more users for the $$$ and effort of just one shelter. And long term maintenance of a cluster of dispersed tentsites is less demanding than what is required for a shelter structure. Of course if this "movement" ever becomes widespread, it means backpackers have even more reason to always carry their own portable shelters and not rely upon shelters.

Mags
12-24-2005, 13:00
There is a growing number of AT enthusiasts who are not so willing to bow to shelter-building as a worthy tradition. For those who have been to Annapolis Rocks recently, it is a stunning example of what might be the future of AT overnight accommodations. It and similar
tentsite
-centric changes in thinking was the subject of a lengthy feature in
ATC's
magazine a year or two ago.

I remember this article! Glad to hear there is more of a movement towards this type of arrangement.
. Think it is a win/win scenario: Easier to maintain, less impact, less $$$ for the trail groups to build.


Of course if this "movement" ever becomes widespread, it means backpackers have even more reason to always carry their own portable shelters and not rely upon shelters.
..and hopefully they don't now! :) But I know what you mean....

Burn
12-24-2005, 22:02
it is just common sense that when you place a perminant fixture next to water sources....ie shelters, privies...you will add to the dangers inherant...

i like the tent site ideal....any one with any salt will even avoid these areas, cause it just doesn't always make sense to sleep where everyone else poops...the impact of these campsites can however be minimized by regularly removing them and relocating them to new areas, away from water sources.

Skyline
12-25-2005, 00:50
I remember this article! Glad to hear there is more of a movement towards this type of arrangement.
. Think it is a win/win scenario: Easier to maintain, less impact, less $$$ for the trail groups to build.


..and hopefully they don't now! :) But I know what you mean....


Well, it may not be a full-fledged "movement" (yet) but in a few clubs I know there are some who are proponents for hardened tentsites vs. shelters. Annapolis Rocks is an example of their (few) successes.

And yeah, I re-read my post and it seems to be missing a word or two.

Skyline
12-25-2005, 12:16
it is just common sense that when you place a perminant fixture next to water sources....ie shelters, privies...you will add to the dangers inherant...

i like the tent site ideal....any one with any salt will even avoid these areas, cause it just doesn't always make sense to sleep where everyone else poops...the impact of these campsites can however be minimized by regularly removing them and relocating them to new areas, away from water sources.


The ideal situation is to locate the tentsites in such a way that users can't accidentally foul water sources. Also, to provide a vaulted privy or maybe a mouldering privy (well away from water) so hikers aren't using the woods.

In short, these clusters of between 4 and 10 hardened tentsites, dispersed and built into sidehill, should have all the amenities of a current shelter area except the shelter structure itself.

Husko
12-26-2005, 01:58
Expect to see Husko carved on a couple of shelters.

Mags
12-26-2005, 12:30
And yeah, I re-read my post and it seems to be missing a word or two.

Or maybe not. Many hikers (long distance hikers esp!) don't take any shelter and depend upon the shelters along the trail. I once told a hiker that I think that it is irresponsbile to not carry any shelter at all. He told me I was more or less being silly because of all the shelters along the trail!

Nightwalker
12-27-2005, 15:34
Expect to see Husko carved on a couple of shelters.
Not a surprise.

How's the dog? I thought that you decided that you didn't like us and left?

:D

Cosmo
12-27-2005, 22:19
Expect to see Husko carved on a couple of shelters.
OK Husko, we'll be on the look out for you this summer. We have a couple of shelters that can use some repairs and re-staining. Care to join us?

Cosmo

Blue Jay
12-28-2005, 19:16
Expect to see Husko carved on a couple of shelters.

Along with dog **** in the corner.

Skyline
12-31-2005, 18:26
Or maybe not. Many hikers (long distance hikers esp!) don't take any shelter and depend upon the shelters along the trail. I once told a hiker that I think that it is irresponsbile to not carry any shelter at all. He told me I was more or less being silly because of all the shelters along the trail!


Yeah, I've met a few of these hikers too . . . and witnessed one ultralighter who showed up during serious rain at the shelter I help maintain during NOBO prime-time when it was full--REALLY full . . . who insisted someone who had crowded into the shelter (who he knew had a tarp with him) vacate the shelter and set up his tarp so this tentless ultralighter could have his shelter space. Um, didn't happen, and the ultralighter left pissed off and decided to backtrack a mile to hitch into town for the night.

*****

I concur setting up a tent or tarp in the rain (or packing up wet in the AM) is not much fun, but there are some tents and procedures that make this a less-disagreeable task. Personally, I hate sleeping in trail shelters so learning how to deal with the elements so I could use my tent was a lesser-of-evils thing for me. Here are a few thoughts on the subject, by no means complete so if anyone has something to add--especially about tarps or hammocks--I'd like to learn too:

--Carry your tent in a stuff sack on the OUTSIDE of your pack. When you get to your site, if it's raining you won't have to go into the body of your pack thus getting contents inside it wet. And if you have a tent with a separate rainfly, consider using a separate stuff sack for the rainfly (keeps your tent body drier the next day when you pack up to leave).

--If you have one of those double-walled tents that allow you to set up the fly first, then setting up in the rain is less of a hassle. But these tents tend to be heavier.

--If you can talk a couple of friends or even strangers into assisting you (and you might be able to reciprocate where appropriate), they can hold the groundcloth over you while you set up the tent...then once the tent is pitched you can force the groundcloth under the tent and pull it out to do the job it was intended for. Unpack inside the mostly-dry tent.

--Single-wall tents or tarp-tents generally go up/come down faster. And speed is everything in the rain.

--Carry a supply of those re-useable shop towels with you to mop up any rain that gets inside your living space while setting up in the rain.

--In monsoon-like heavy rains, if you can wait an hour or two before setting up, odds are that the rain will at least lighten up. Having knowledge of today's regional weather patterns can help you with this decision.

--If raining in the AM, pack up within the relative comfort of your tent. You should be able to get everything inside your pack mostly dry. Put the raincover on your pack, set it outside, and take down the tent as fast as possible. Another advantage to carrying your tent on the outside of your pack.

--Realize sometimes you and/or your stuff are going to get soaked and try not to get too depressed about it. A sense of humor helps, as does ALWAYS carrying warm, dry clothing in some kind of waterproof enclosure so you can put them on once you do get your tent set up and dry inside.

prozac
01-01-2006, 10:22
All those in favor of getting rid of shelters I salute you. Just remember next time it rains for 5 straight days, I don't expect to see you in one. Thanx for the extra room. And if you get rid of the shelters and only have campsites Husko is gonna tag your tent. I'm gonna laugh my ass off when I see HUSKO spraypainted on Lone Wolf's tent.

Skyline
01-01-2006, 18:04
All those in favor of getting rid of shelters I salute you. Just remember next time it rains for 5 straight days, I don't expect to see you in one. Thanx for the extra room. And if you get rid of the shelters and only have campsites Husko is gonna tag your tent. I'm gonna laugh my ass off when I see HUSKO spraypainted on Lone Wolf's tent.


No problem here with the first part. During the last year of my sectioning the AT in '03, it rained at least part of 21 days out of 25. I only spent a few daytime hours in a shelter during a zero due to illness.

More room for you, enjoy...

Burn
01-01-2006, 18:16
i think i stayed 3 evenings in shelters...i eat there to touch base with who is catching me and who moved on...then i move on about a mile...usually i try to find a water feature, even a trickle sound lulls me to sleep and i don't have mice or snoring...did bump into a lot of wild life. A raccoon snuck up on my hammock once and peered inside to see what smelled dead.

Lone Wolf
01-01-2006, 18:55
Shelters are for weenies like prozac. Real men don't rely on them.:cool:

bfitz
01-02-2006, 02:33
Shelters are for weenies like prozac. Real men don't rely on them.:cool:
They don't bother me any more than the initials carved into them. But they are a trace...same as my turds...only more permanent. Good for rainy nights, though.

prozac
01-02-2006, 08:51
At least I'll be a dry weenie. ;)

general
01-02-2006, 11:08
shelters leak tarps and tents don't.

Vi+
01-02-2006, 14:08
It would be a good idea to REQUIRE Trail Idiots - - those hikers so stupid they present a danger to others - - to carve their names into all sorts of things; beginning with their own foreheads.

They should also be subsidized; an artist would carve their likenesses into permanent registry granite spaced along the trail.

prozac
01-02-2006, 14:15
Shelters don't cost nothing. Shelters don't have condensation problems. Shelters don't come in ridiculous ugly ass colors. Shelters have privies. You don't have to pack up your shelter in the morning.
That being said, I spend about every other night in a shelter. Sure they are a convenience but so are half the things in your pack. Do you really need a radio, book, coffee, liquor and/or other substance, hiking poles or camera? No. They just add to your trail experience. So does a shelter on a rainy night. To eliminate the shelters which have been there before most of us were born is wrong IMHO.For that matter lets get rid of the blazes. Daniel Boone didn't need none. Everyone would learn proper orienteering and head for Maine using a compass. :rolleyes: HYOH. This would be the part where somebody responds with all the shelter negatives like mice, snorers yada yada yada.

Skyline
01-02-2006, 14:33
Shelters don't cost nothing. Shelters don't have condensation problems. Shelters don't come in ridiculous ugly ass colors. Shelters have privies. You don't have to pack up your shelter in the morning.
That being said, I spend about every other night in a shelter. Sure they are a convenience but so are half the things in your pack. Do you really need a radio, book, coffee, liquor and/or other substance, hiking poles or camera? No. They just add to your trail experience. So does a shelter on a rainy night. To eliminate the shelters which have been there before most of us were born is wrong IMHO.For that matter lets get rid of the blazes. Daniel Boone didn't need none. Everyone would learn proper orienteering and head for Maine using a compass. :rolleyes: HYOH. This would be the part where somebody responds with all the shelter negatives like mice, snorers yada yada yada.


I don't think many seriously expect many current shelters to be torn down. But some of us advocate that few, if any, shelters be built in the future--for the reasons of shelter negatives yada yada that you seem to already comprehend (above) but mostly because they do in fact cost a LOT of money contrary to your first statement. Maybe not directly out of your pocket, but out of the treasuries of our AT maintaining clubs. They also take a lot of ongoing maintenance. Trail clubs could allocate their financial and human resources a lot better by locating and producing really good tentsites instead of new shelters.

lobster
01-02-2006, 15:11
Forget the tentsites. Folks will find the best spots to tent anyways.

Burn
01-02-2006, 16:27
For that matter lets get rid of the blazes. Daniel Boone didn't need none. Everyone would learn proper orienteering and head for Maine using a compass. .....lol no they wouldn't, they already follow the 8 inch gullies and defoliated patches as well as the leki pole scratches and the pressure treated wood steps and water bars...very rarely do ya even need a blaze, on the rocks, just follow the path where the moss is rubbed of of it and leechens and such...when in doubt, yer buddy is just a whisper ahead of you and knows where he is going hahaha

Blue Jay
01-02-2006, 16:36
Shelters are for weenies like prozac. Real men don't rely on them.:cool:

That's a good thing. Real men are more annoying than snorers and mice put together.

sparky2000
01-02-2006, 17:31
I see that the voting scores show we've got more chiefs then indians.

prozac
01-02-2006, 17:32
Skyline, really wasn't expecting a rational intelligent response. I quess shelters do have a monetary and labor cost when it comes to trail maintenance crews, but I enjoy some of them. The ones close to roads and the dilapidated ones should be removed. The rest are just fine with me. In fact I think any new ones should be bigger and better. Something along the lines of Peter's Mt. Shelter or Plum Orchard Gap Shelter. Not necessarily more shelters but better ones. Some I wouldn't stay in even if it was raining.
Burn, as for just following your partner, more then once have I been following someone with my head up my @ss just enjoying the day when I realize I haven't seen a blaze in a long time.
Lone Wolf, shelters are like women. Never said I relied on them, just enjoyed laying in them. :jump

Paywau
01-03-2006, 07:37
Take only pictures, leave only footprints. Leave no trace.

Burn
01-03-2006, 11:30
lol i guess i shouldn't have said hike like a pro...hehehe

yeh, i've hiked right thru a blow down knowing the trail was upward and onward...only to glance right after 10 steps only to realize the blow down was actually trail maintainance to prevent more dumbarses like me from going the wrong way...hehehe

oh, and the more traveled gulley is not always the AT...seems like there is a bridge in GA you cross...no double blaze, and the BMT is more traveled there cause like me everyone walks it cause it looks more traveled cause all the ATs walk it twice to get there and back to the bridge.

i also thought some dayz the blazes were more spaced out....they weren't i was just crawling slower than a snail....when i picked up speed the blazes were closer together...amazing how the trail plays with ya

Skyline
01-03-2006, 11:46
The maintainence standard, at least where I live, is that from one blaze you should be able to see the next blaze. If you've hiked the whole AT you know this standard is not followed everywhere, and at the other extreme some places the AT is over-blazed. Additionally, in some terrain blazes are placed on low rocks or ground which can be covered up by snow or leaves, and may also be hard to see if you night-hike.

Cosmo
01-04-2006, 23:04
Interesting discussion RE shelters. There has been some discussion in AT "management circles" about the "Shelter Creep Phenomenon"--the tendency to build bigger shelters, using finished materials and front-country designs--a far cry from the "primitive" trail experience the AT purports to provide. This seems to be particularly prevalent in the mid-Atlantic and southern regions. Perhaps we are a bit more frugal up north here.

I personally think hikers--particularly long distance one (despite protestations to the contrary)--are primarily seeking social interaction and group bonding at the end of each day's hiking. The hiking becomes a means to fellowship. A shelter is a good place to conduct that activity. If we replaced the shelters with tentsites (i.e. not providing a protected central place to sit, cook and chat), I think we may find through/section hiking may become a much less popular activity.

That said, as dusk falls late on a rainy autumn afternoon you'll find me in the shelter, not setting up my tent while trying to keep its insides dry...

Cosmo

Mags
01-05-2006, 14:58
I personally think hikers--particularly long distance one (despite protestations to the contrary)--are primarily seeking social interaction and group bonding at the end of each day's hiking. The hiking becomes a means to fellowship. A shelter is a good place to conduct that activity. If we replaced the shelters with tentsites (i.e. not providing a protected central place to sit, cook and chat), I think we may find through/section hiking may become a much less popular activity.



I don't know. The JMT and the Colorado Trail get a fair amount of backpackers with hardly any shelters to speak of. Of course, the AT does have more backpackers..but I think that is because the East Coast is more populated overall.

Do you really think there would be less people backpacking if shelters are gradually built less?

As Skyline metioned, many of these tent sites *ARE* being built with a central area (e.g. picnic tables). So the socialization is still received. A person just uses their own shelter. The traiil orgs spend less time and money building and maintaining shelters.

I've been known to user shelters on occasion myself. But I hate crowded shelters...and don't think a lack of a shelter would prevent me from hiking the AT or other trails.

Cosmo
01-05-2006, 22:47
I don't know. The JMT and the Colorado Trail get a fair amount of backpackers with hardly any shelters to speak of. Of course, the AT does have more backpackers..but I think that is because the East Coast is more populated overall.

Do you really think there would be less people backpacking if shelters are gradually built less?

As Skyline metioned, many of these tent sites *ARE* being built with a central area (e.g. picnic tables). So the socialization is still received. A person just uses their own shelter. The traiil orgs spend less time and money building and maintaining shelters.

I've been known to user shelters on occasion myself. But I hate crowded shelters...and don't think a lack of a shelter would prevent me from hiking the AT or other trails.

I think ('tho I ceertainly cannot show any sources)a significant number of AT hikers are relatively inexperienced, many travel in organized groups. I think there are certainly areas where we would see a significant drop in popularity if we offered a more primitive level of overnight stop.

There's something about the trappings of "civilization" that people somehow want to see out there. It's the same thought process that puts magazines, curtains, solar powered lights, and furniture into shelters to make them more "hiker friendly". Maybe I'm too elitest or a management wonk. People hiking should be meeting the outdoors on its own terms as much as possible, not re-making it to accommodate their insecurities. That said, my first night out on the trail is always a little unsettled, especially if I am alone and in the tent where it's difficult to see and check out all those strange noises...

Cosmo

Freighttrain
01-06-2006, 08:47
its amazing how many of the class of 2000 carved their names not only in the shelters but also all over the halfway sign.. dont know about other years.

Mags
01-06-2006, 15:56
[quote=Cosmo]I think ('tho I ceertainly cannot show any sources)a significant number of AT hikers are relatively inexperienced,


When I first started backpacking, did not even know about shelters. I just tented it. In fact, I thought shelters were unusual. The idea of backcountry structure in the woods were a novelty for me. (Along with *NOT* wearing blue jeans and work boots..but that's another story. :) )


I suspect many people new to backpacking also don't know about shelters.

Then again, I backpacked before I did the AT. People new to the AT scene and then go backpacking may know more about shelters before I did.

YMMV.

rickb
11-14-2008, 22:47
Just revisiting this poll. L. Wolf sounds the same.

Phreak
11-14-2008, 22:51
I don't care what's done to shelters. Carve 'em, burn 'em, wutever.

Lone Wolf
11-14-2008, 23:03
Just revisiting this poll. L. Wolf sounds the same.

ya think? :rolleyes: i don't waiver much, kid

Father Dragon
11-15-2008, 18:32
I like it when hikers write in magic marker, "SMOKE DOPE" or "Ron Paul Revolution" ... it reminds me to stay away from shelters...

weary
11-15-2008, 18:57
I don't care what's done to shelters. Carve 'em, burn 'em, wutever.
I'll guarantee that if we find whoever takes your advice and burns a shelter in Maine, he will be arrested and will almost certainly go to jail. FWIW. This is a totally irresponsible comment and violates forum rules against condoning blatantly unlawful behavior.

Weary

emerald
11-15-2008, 19:28
I'm in agreement with you on your last comment weary.

Mags
11-15-2008, 19:34
While I am not a big fan of shelters, advocating burning them to the ground seems...less than prudent.

Question: Why say the AT is insignificant ..and post hundreds of messages about it?????

As I play yet another round of corporate Maytag Man right now, make me wonder.

sticks&stones
11-15-2008, 19:54
I'll guarantee that if we find whoever takes your advice and burns a shelter in Maine, he will be arrested and will almost certainly go to jail. FWIW. This is a totally irresponsible comment and violates forum rules against condoning blatantly unlawful behavior.

Weary

I dont think that phreak was telling everyone to burn shelters down, hardly. I think his point was obvious. To suggest ANYONE is suddenly going to start torching shelters across the mid atlantic over phreaks comment is ridiculous. To suggest he is violating anything is, well, typical.

Bare Bear
11-15-2008, 21:22
It is never acceptable. Nor are the alcohol stove burn rings (and yes I use one but also carry a burn pad so that I do not do damage). If you have ever done maintenance then you realize how very hard it is to keep the Trail up and every little bit we hikers do can help or hurt.

Pedaling Fool
11-15-2008, 21:31
But it can become acceptable:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_terminology

Mags
11-15-2008, 21:50
But it can become acceptable:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_terminology

Mentioned than on another thread (along w/ Basque carvings, Petroglyphs..etc)....

Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Tends to happen on the Internet... :D


2 hrs until my Maytagging is done...

weary
11-15-2008, 21:52
But it can become acceptable:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilroy_was_here


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graffiti_terminology
I somehow think there is a distinction between graffiti by soldiers facing death in a world war, and graffiti by walkers on a trail who deface public structures.

Weary

Pedaling Fool
11-15-2008, 22:27
I somehow think there is a distinction between graffiti by soldiers facing death in a world war, and graffiti by walkers on a trail who deface public structures.

Weary
See that's the problem: PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.

I don't condone the graffiti in the shelters, but what can you do; put cameras in the shelters? Or let your blood boil over it and when someone does get caught, like Cubby, let him absorb all the built-up anger that has accumulated over the years.

If we got all WB members together at one place and then introduced
Cubby to the group, there would be a mob-mentality response. Not saying he would be lynched, but something wrong would happen.

Curious, what’s the maximum penalty under the law?

Jack Tarlin
11-15-2008, 22:33
The penalty and punishment depend on how many incidents there were; where they took place; and how much money it is estimated it would cost to repair the damage.

weary
11-15-2008, 22:41
See that's the problem: PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.

I don't condone the graffiti in the shelters, but what can you do; put cameras in the shelters? Or let your blood boil over it and when someone does get caught, like Cubby, let him absorb all the built-up anger that has accumulated over the years.

If we got all WB members together at one place and then introduced
Cubby to the group, there would be a mob-mentality response. Not saying he would be lynched, but something wrong would happen.

Curious, what’s the maximum penalty under the law?

I think I remember someone postng that the penalty is $500, or six months in jail, or both, per incident.

Weary

Retro
11-15-2008, 23:12
For USFS jurisdiction:

"A violation of these regulations is subject to a penalty of not more than $5,000 or 6 months imprisonment, or both."

http://www.fs.fed.us/lei/CFR_261_web/36cfr261_index.htm

Lone Wolf
11-15-2008, 23:21
99.9% of folks that build shelters don't hike

sherrill
11-15-2008, 23:50
The penalty and punishment depend on how many incidents there were; where they took place; and how much money it is estimated it would cost to repair the damage.

That is, if who has jurisdiction can be determined.

I asked in the "Cubby" thread who owned the shelters. Weary gave a good account for Maine, but what about the others?

Also, the person in question either has to be caught by authorities in the act, or be turned in by witnesses ready to give sworn statements. Do you think it's realistic to expect one or both to occur?

I suppose that peer pressure would be a good deterrent, but personally I don't usually tell people with a knife in their hands what to do.

emerald
11-16-2008, 01:33
99.9% of folks that build shelters don't hike

Source and relevance please?


I somehow think there is a distinction between graffiti by soldiers facing death in a world war, and graffiti by walkers on a trail who deface public structures.

Location and changes in what's considered acceptable behavior would be two distinctions.

Lone Wolf
11-16-2008, 08:35
Relevence please?


that's relevAnce

mweinstone
11-16-2008, 09:18
if a stranger destroys all my stuff in front of me,...i dont care. i forgive him. and ill pray for him. touch my frickkin trail and ill ,.....do the same. but with a seriously scrinched up face and fists. but the shelter is not the week or the tired or the fatherless or the widow . the shelter is not your child or father or alive in any way. it is an object. i clean shelters. i defend children. writeing your name on a structure that will out live the writer, is a reaction to the feelings of unimportant, irelevant invisability, that our modern and bankrupt ways leave us. especialy, the ways of city life where we are made even smaller by the buildings towering overhead. to tag a wall with your hit is to say, "im here!". it is a plea for love in a loveless world. graffitti a crime? yes on the books. whats it really? crying.

pics are port clinton pavillion graffitti done by humans and removed by cammo,bag 'o tricks,stonewall and me with stove fuel.

Roland
11-16-2008, 09:46
if a stranger destroys all my stuff in front of me,...i dont care. i forgive him. and ill pray for him. touch my frickkin trail and ill ,.....do the same. but with a seriously scrinched up face and fists. but the shelter is not the week or the tired or the fatherless or the widow . the shelter is not your child or father or alive in any way. it is an object. i clean shelters. i defend children. writeing your name on a structure that will out live the writer, is a reaction to the feelings of unimportant, irelevant invisability, that our modern and bankrupt ways leave us. especialy, the ways of city life where we are made even smaller by the buildings towering overhead. to tag a wall with your hit is to say, "im here!". it is a plea for love in a loveless world. graffitti a crime? yes on the books. whats it really? crying.

pics are port clinton pavillion graffitti done by humans and removed by cammo,bag 'o tricks,stonewall and me with stove fuel.

I read it, understood it, and it made sense to me.

Now I'm getting scared. ;)

Interesting observation, Mr. Weinstone, and nicely articulated.

STEVEM
11-16-2008, 09:54
if a stranger destroys all my stuff in front of me,...i dont care. i forgive him. and ill pray for him. touch my frickkin trail and ill ,.....do the same. but with a seriously scrinched up face and fists. but the shelter is not the week or the tired or the fatherless or the widow . the shelter is not your child or father or alive in any way. it is an object. i clean shelters. i defend children. writeing your name on a structure that will out live the writer, is a reaction to the feelings of unimportant, irelevant invisability, that our modern and bankrupt ways leave us. especialy, the ways of city life where we are made even smaller by the buildings towering overhead. to tag a wall with your hit is to say, "im here!". it is a plea for love in a loveless world. graffitti a crime? yes on the books. whats it really? crying.

pics are port clinton pavillion graffitti done by humans and removed by cammo,bag 'o tricks,stonewall and me with stove fuel.

Matthew, As usual, thoughtful and correct.

dmax
11-16-2008, 10:09
Tagging shelters is the same thing the gang bangers do in the city. They tag what ever they can to show their territory and power. It won't be long and we'll be seeing the plague on Springer getting tagged.

emerald
11-16-2008, 11:38
that's relevAnce

Thanks, but you still haven't answered my question.

emerald
11-16-2008, 11:50
Tagging shelters is the same thing the gang bangers do in the city. They tag whatever they can to show their territory and power.

These people sometimes must be taught what they think of as theirs isn't theirs to do with as they please by others who demonstrate their superior powers.

Some people don't need ideas put in their heads. We should count our blessings they are slow to develop their own and given the environment in which they do their thinking, they need not be provided reagents or catalysts.

weary
11-16-2008, 12:10
99.9% of folks that build shelters don't hike
I don't know about Virginia, but that is not true in Maine. All Maine shelter builders are capable of walking, since our shelters are all two or three miles from the nearest road -- some like the new Bigelow shelters even further and up a steep mountain trail.

But beyond the walking required to get to the construction sites, I would think the number of hard core recreational hikers is more like 50-50 -- maybe 60-40. The latter was the break down on the East Branch shelter, the only construction I participated in.

Weary

TD55
11-16-2008, 13:09
99.9% of folks that build shelters don't hike
99.9% of folks who hike and use shelters do not build them or maintain them.

emerald
11-16-2008, 13:22
99.9% of folks who hike and use shelters do not build them or maintain them.

They would be better for it if they did or volunteered their time and talents in other ways which benefit society. Helping to build an AT shelter impacts one's thinking about them and those who build them. It teaches respect for others and their labors.

Lone Wolf
11-16-2008, 13:46
They would be better for it if they did or volunteered their time and talents in other ways which benefit society.

i volunteer an average of 50 hours per week on the rescue squad

ed bell
11-16-2008, 13:56
DWM provided this picture earlier in this thread under the title "Lovely, just lovely". I thought it was worth looking at again because this is what I imagine when I think of shelter graffiti. Regardless of how one feels about shelters, that is just plain unacceptable behavior and any addition to it is advocating it. All of it.


http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/vbg/showimage.php?i=5766&c=665&userid=1030

Pedaling Fool
11-16-2008, 15:23
Reminds me of Dick's Dome shelter.

Pedaling Fool
11-16-2008, 15:29
Graffiti is like hiking naked. You should only do it if you got something good to show. Nothing good to show, then it’s just ugly offensive garbage.:D:sun

Hoop
11-16-2008, 15:56
A little off thread but on Stone Mountain you'll see several interesting old names/dates, etc., carved with great care in the granite on the walking path to the top.

Pedaling Fool
11-16-2008, 16:32
A little off thread but on Stone Mountain you'll see several interesting old names/dates, etc., carved with great care in the granite on the walking path to the top.
How old?

ed bell
11-16-2008, 16:49
Anyone remember a "Kid Rock" from the mid-late 90's? Painted a huge "Kid Rock" in red in shelters down south.

Hoop
11-16-2008, 22:28
"How old?"

1880's forward.

SurferNerd
11-16-2008, 22:39
It was so hard today to get pics of the old log cabins in Cades Cove, damn trolls wrote all over the walls.

*Story: So a very good friend of mine hiked out to a state nature reserve with his girlfriend, and it just so happens they took pictures of him carving their names into a wood walkway. Interestingly, I know the park ranger very well. Even tho he's my good friend, I emailed my ranger buddy the pics, and they ticketed him $276.00 under TN state law. I don't care who you are, or what you do. BUT I do care to NOT know you were here on such a date. Take a picture to prove it! Not ruin our peace!*

Pedaling Fool
11-16-2008, 22:43
It was so hard today to get pics of the old log cabins in Cades Cove, damn trolls wrote all over the walls.

*Story: So a very good friend of mine hiked out to a state nature reserve with his girlfriend, and it just so happens they took pictures of him carving their names into a wood walkway. Interestingly, I know the park ranger very well. Even tho he's my good friend, I emailed my ranger buddy the pics, and they ticketed him $276.00 under TN state law. I don't care who you are, or what you do. BUT I do care to NOT know you were here on such a date. Take a picture to prove it! Not ruin our peace!*

This is interesting. Were you two very close friends or just so-so? How's your friend and you get along nowadays?

SurferNerd
11-16-2008, 22:56
This is interesting. Were you two very close friends or just so-so? How's your friend and you get along nowadays?

Well we're still friends, and we still hang out. He realized he did wrong, accepted his mistake, didn't speak to me for 2 weeks, but came to...

Tinker
11-16-2008, 23:10
I would have done it as a kid, though I don't recall having done it (I started hiking when I was in my 20's).
If it is illegal, and a person has respect for the law, it won't be done by a responsible person.
The fact remains that it is done (by a few).
I'm not in favor of it, and would comment on it if I saw someone doing it, but that's not likely, as I only use shelters for cooking and visiting. I sleep elsewhere.
You can't educate someone unwilling to learn, however.

volleypc
11-17-2008, 18:08
I think of the hardwork that went into building the shelter, the time and energy of the people that built the shelter and lastly I think about the whipping my dad gave me when I was a kid for carving my initials onto an old counter that he had in storage. I am not sure which one of the three makes me feel this way, but I think its wrong, ugly, and it is vandalism. I do tend to see it as stealing. If the people that built it didn't want their names in it, I dont think we have the right to add ours.

Bare Bear
11-17-2008, 18:15
I personally was even reluctant to leave messages scratched into the dirt on the Trail. Twice when I left messages posted at the turn offs to a shelter I made sure to include "Please take this with you" to the addressee. Leave no trace.

SassyWindsor
11-17-2008, 19:22
A Blow Torch should be the only allowed tool used in any shelter carving.:banana

Odd Thomas
11-17-2008, 21:18
Knives big enough to carve weigh too much for ultra lighters to carry...:D

Pan

Gerber Paraframe I, 2.7oz :p

emerald
11-17-2008, 22:12
This thread's about run its course too.

Plodderman
11-23-2008, 17:38
N0 problem I really do not care but I have never carved my name but I do nt write in the trail registry either. I am a little more on the side of leaving no trace.