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View Full Version : Hawk Mountain Shelter On Georgia AT To Be Torn Down



cneill13
01-19-2016, 16:28
I spoke with two trail maintainers this past weekend who had just finished up work on a 1/2 mile side trail on Hawk Mountain which is shelter number 3 (8.1 miles north) on the Georgia AT.

The Hawk Mountain shelter and privy are going to be torn down later this year due to over use. There is going to be a 1/2 mile side trail from the AT that leads to a new place for tents (and hammocks of course). They said there should be room for around 30 tents. Not sure if a new privy is going to be built.

Carl

Lone Wolf
01-19-2016, 16:34
i've been at the shelter when no less than 50 were there. gonna need more than 30 sites

Tennessee Viking
01-19-2016, 16:37
0.5 miles from Hightower Gap. Its too easy of an access for partiers and rotten hikers.

SteelCut
01-19-2016, 16:37
http://georgia-atclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=177:presidential-ponderings-2016-2017&catid=33&Itemid=684

Slo-go'en
01-19-2016, 17:08
http://georgia-atclub.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=177:presidential-ponderings-2016-2017&catid=33&Itemid=684

It would be nice if they used a font which is easier to read! It does say a moldering privy will be built at the new camping site.

Good luck keeping people from camping at the current location unless they build a wall around it.

Gambit McCrae
01-19-2016, 18:10
Tent sight is still going to be less attractive then a hiker box, I mean shelter. IMO I don't think there should be any shelters south of blood, (Because it is of stone), or maybe even Fontana. Its just a comfort zone for newbies and in the end destroys those spots. It enables rotten hikers to continue on a higher mental note and is a trash magnet/ bear magnet. I hiked GA sobo last year during the spring and was disgusted at the amount of not only trash, but gear as well. Thermorests, dry bags, stoves and canisters.

My frustrations are in no way directed at volunteers, I cannot imagine the undertaking to maintain these sections during those spring months. I wish there was more pre-hike education available but in the end, your gunna have the people that I guess just pop up with no pre thought and expect to be successful in the woods.

FatMan
01-19-2016, 19:23
Yep, Hawk is a mess and I agree it needs to be closed. 30 tent pads will not handle the demand and will get trashed in short order as well. There is no solution to the throngs of thru hikers other than limiting them with a permit system.

Lone Wolf
01-19-2016, 19:26
Yep, Hawk is a mess and I agree it needs to be closed. 30 tent pads will not handle the demand and will get trashed in short order as well. There is no solution to the throngs of thru hikers other than limiting them with a permit system.

and a caretaker at every shelter and designated campsite

4eyedbuzzard
01-19-2016, 20:06
Not passing judgment one way or the other, but just a somewhat evil thought that comes to mind: a specially trained dog and a paddy wagon at USFS 42 would likely thin the herd substantially.

SWODaddy
01-19-2016, 20:46
Not passing judgment one way or the other, but just a somewhat evil thought that comes to mind: a specially trained dog and a paddy wagon at USFS 42 would likely thin the herd substantially.

:D





"at least 10 characters."

RockDoc
01-19-2016, 22:09
Tearing down shelters because of overuse!! The logical response would be to build more shelters. Not that I like or commonly use shelters...

The same sort of thing happened in Montana/Idaho a few years ago. The Forest Service decided to close FS roads because of "too much use" by the public. So began a human-elimination program, coupled with a new fee structure. Ah, trickle-down tyranny at it's best.

MuddyWaters
01-19-2016, 22:09
Not passing judgment one way or the other, but just a somewhat evil thought that comes to mind: a specially trained dog and a paddy wagon at USFS 42 would likely thin the herd substantially.


In slavery times, groups of young white men, sons of the plantation owners , would patrol the roads at night on horseback looking for runaways . In the dialect of the times, these groups of patrollers were called the "paddy rollers" by the slaves.

And now you know, where the term "paddy" in paddy wagon came from. In fact, the very act of policing and patrolling as we know it, started with policing the slaves. Which carries over into the historic distrust and fear of police black people still have today. Some things change slowly.


Many people wont go 1/2 mile off the AT for a shelter, darn sure not a campsite.
Sometimes I think trail clubs....just like to build new trail and change things


The concept of the shelters IS to overuse them. Its called concentrated impact. You preserve other areas, by sacrificing some.

excuses
01-19-2016, 23:00
The area around Springer is interlaced with roads. This makes it easy to get to shelters and not have to hike to them. On a side note, the term Paddy comes from the Irish. Paddy wagons were the police wagons who were mainly Irish in many towns in the late 1800's (and later).

hikehunter
01-19-2016, 23:12
Gambit.......................I am in your camp................NO WOOD SHELTERS less than 50 years old south of Franklin would ease some of the crowding and get less of the weekend party folks.

JumpMaster Blaster
01-19-2016, 23:31
Just great. Another AT "facility" being shut down/dismantled because of overcrowding, trash, and "hikers" with bad attitudes. I try to avoid sleeping in shelters anyway, so I'm glad they're making a big tentsite, but still...

Modern partiers and "rotten hikers" are ruining things for everyone who hasn't seen the whole trail. Hawk Mtn Shelter, the jailhouse in Palmerton, maybe Katahdin? Geez.

MuddyWaters
01-19-2016, 23:33
The area around Springer is interlaced with roads. This makes it easy to get to shelters and not have to hike to them. On a side note, the term Paddy comes from the Irish. Paddy wagons were the police wagons who were mainly Irish in many towns in the late 1800's (and later).

The police in the US evolved out of slave / minority patrollers, that were called Paddy rollers , long before the irish terminology came into being in the 20th century. As far back as 1704. The term paddy used for police patrols here predates any references to irish policemen or immigrants by about 150- 200 years.

Sarcasm the elf
01-19-2016, 23:47
The concept of the shelters IS to overuse them. Its called concentrated impact. You preserve other areas, by sacrificing some.

This......

Besides Hawk Mountain doesn't exactly feel like wilderness when you're being lulled to sleep by nearby suppressive fire. (Not that I minded, I was perfectly happy to know that Army Rangers are nearby)

Slo-go'en
01-20-2016, 00:11
Eliminating shelters will not reduce over crowding. Shelters only hold a limited number of people. (15 at Hawk?) By eliminating the shelter, those 15 people will now have to disperse and each one will have a much bigger footprint then if they were all in the structure. So, I don't see where anything is gained.

Now they are going to dig 30 tent platforms into the side of a hill and how is that less of an impact then leaving things stand as they are? Makes no sense. Since this new camping area is half mile off the trail, no doubt Stover Creek and Gooch will see increased usage, along with camping along the trail between them.

It would make more sense to leave Hawk the way it is and make the new site the overflow camping area to try and reduce the impact in the immediate area around the shelter due to tenting.

RangerZ
01-20-2016, 00:26
This......

Besides Hawk Mountain doesn't exactly feel like wilderness when you're being lulled to sleep by nearby suppressive fire. (Not that I minded, I was perfectly happy to know that Army Rangers are nearby)

Sometime in May 1976 I made my first visit to North Georgia, I remember the patrol to scope out the Hawk Mountain shelter one night. Didn't make it to the shelter, I was out on security somewhere. Definitely didn't have UL gear.

Skyline
01-20-2016, 02:21
If the new tentsites that will replace Hawk Mt. Shelter are cut into hillsides, dispersed and not in a tent ghetto, this could be a good thing. Jeff Marion ... https://profile.usgs.gov/jeff_marion ... pioneered this approach by leading rehab efforts at overused places like Annapolis Rock.

The idea is to make individual tentsites in a kind of "campus," near a water source, and in a truly popular location include a privy.

Shelters encourage partying by non-hikers and hikers alike who abuse both the entire area plus legit hikers trying to get some sleep. They can be filthy and full of mice, disease, and in poor repair despite the ongoing efforts of maintainers and trail clubs.

Many trails of 50 miles or more have zero shelters, and people seem to do well without them. A good example is the Foothills Trail, which does have pre-hardened tentsites in a "campus" arrangement a near water source.

Pedaling Fool
01-20-2016, 07:41
In slavery times, groups of young white men, sons of the plantation owners , would patrol the roads at night on horseback looking for runaways . In the dialect of the times, these groups of patrollers were called the "paddy rollers" by the slaves.

And now you know, where the term "paddy" in paddy wagon came from. In fact, the very act of policing and patrolling as we know it, started with policing the slaves. Which carries over into the historic distrust and fear of police black people still have today. Some things change slowly.


Many people wont go 1/2 mile off the AT for a shelter, darn sure not a campsite.
Sometimes I think trail clubs....just like to build new trail and change things


The concept of the shelters IS to overuse them. Its called concentrated impact. You preserve other areas, by sacrificing some.


...On a side note, the term Paddy comes from the Irish. Paddy wagons were the police wagons who were mainly Irish in many towns in the late 1800's (and later).


The police in the US evolved out of slave / minority patrollers, that were called Paddy rollers , long before the irish terminology came into being in the 20th century. As far back as 1704. The term paddy used for police patrols here predates any references to irish policemen or immigrants by about 150- 200 years.
This is interesting, I too thought the term paddy had its origins in Irish police. If it did in fact come from slaves then what did the word paddy mean to the slaves, why would they call them paddy rollers?

MuddyWaters
01-20-2016, 08:09
This is interesting, I too thought the term paddy had its origins in Irish police. If it did in fact come from slaves then what did the word paddy mean to the slaves, why would they call them paddy rollers?

the term patrollers was anglicized over time to be paddy rollers, who later became the police. Not everyone read or write, and pronunciation modified words commonly back then. Our dollar started out as the thaler. Some sounds are easier pronounced, and eventually words change.

Gambit McCrae
01-20-2016, 08:41
I know roads are always added instead of taken out, and I'm not sure what predates who as far as shelter construction vs roads but I'm pretty sure 99% of the time the road was there first. In this case I don't see what its not a standard rule that shelters are a minimum distance away from a road, say 1.5 miles? 2 miles?

I think it would be a lot less appetizing to start a trail that doesn't have a premade safe house to bounce to every night.

I don't know how you would enforce a permit system on the AT without creating some jobs or at least some ridge runners in the south. Perhaps a seasonal permit system? Feb 15th thru May 30th? (If you make it March 1st or 15th a lot more people would just start a day before the permit requirement and bypass it)

In some aspects I feel like a hypocrite because I will use a shelter If its empty but if its got more the 1-2 other people in it? See ya I'm tenting

Coffee
01-20-2016, 09:03
I've never understood the appeal of shelters in general and especially when they are crowded. Sounds like the shelters near the southern terminus should be torn down. Then there probably won't be much of a need for a permit system to reduce crowds.

4eyedbuzzard
01-20-2016, 09:18
the term patrollers was anglicized over time to be paddy rollers, who later became the police. Not everyone read or write, and pronunciation modified words commonly back then. Our dollar started out as the thaler. Some sounds are easier pronounced, and eventually words change.Thalers were first produced in Germany and continental Europe. The translation into the English word dollar first appeared in Scotland in the 1500's. But there is a lot more to the history http://www.coinfacts.com/historical_notes/history_of_the_silver_dollar.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_dollar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar

4eyedbuzzard
01-20-2016, 09:24
I've never understood the appeal of shelters in general and especially when they are crowded. Sounds like the shelters near the southern terminus should be torn down. Then there probably won't be much of a need for a permit system to reduce crowds.Back in the day when canvas tents weighed 10 lbs+, and the trail was relatively uncrowded, shelters every 8 to 10 miles were an obvious improvement over carrying a tent. Sometimes they still are, especially in an ice or wind storm when large branches start breaking and falling out of trees.

TexasBob
01-20-2016, 10:09
I've never understood the appeal of shelters in general and especially when they are crowded. Sounds like the shelters near the southern terminus should be torn down. Then there probably won't be much of a need for a permit system to reduce crowds.

If you don't like shelters then don't use them. Some of you guys remind me of the guy living in a suburb complaining about urban sprawl. You seem to think that you are not part of the problem of the trail being crowded because you where there first like somehow those newbies don't have as much right to hike as you grizzled trail veterans. Lighten up.

Coffee
01-20-2016, 10:20
If you don't like shelters then don't use them. Some of you guys remind me of the guy living in a suburb complaining about urban sprawl. You seem to think that you are not part of the problem of the trail being crowded because you where there first like somehow those newbies don't have as much right to hike as you grizzled trail veterans. Lighten up.

I don't and I won't. But I have every right to express my opinion just as you have the right to express yours.

TexasBob
01-20-2016, 10:31
I don't and I won't. But I have every right to express my opinion just as you have the right to express yours.

Yes we do have that right and I enjoy reading your posts.

egilbe
01-20-2016, 10:37
The police in the US evolved out of slave / minority patrollers, that were called Paddy rollers , long before the irish terminology came into being in the 20th century. As far back as 1704. The term paddy used for police patrols here predates any references to irish policemen or immigrants by about 150- 200 years.

The first slaves were Irish.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

Gambit McCrae
01-20-2016, 10:38
If you don't like shelters then don't use them. Some of you guys remind me of the guy living in a suburb complaining about urban sprawl. You seem to think that you are not part of the problem of the trail being crowded because you where there first like somehow those newbies don't have as much right to hike as you grizzled trail veterans. Lighten up.

Show me a newbie that respects the trail like these grizzled veterans, and ill show you respect for a newbie. There is nothing wrong with being new, there's something wrong with trashing mine, and your trail. Its our trail, and ignorance is no excuse for disrespecting our lands. It is black and white as to the difference between us leaving a footprint due to the intent of using the trail, and trashing it. If everyone packed out what they brought in, helped maintain fire pits, didn't "wack on live trees" and policed their campsite before leaving then the thru crowd would have a good reputation of financially contributing to the area and provided a tradition of heading north. Instead, regulars on the trail dread march, avoid the trail and volunteers and maintainers are overwhelmed with babysitting the trail during spring time. As Coffee said, you have your right and I have mine. And I'm expressing my right to be pissed at irresponsible whims to "go on an adventure", that ends in Neel Gap just to leave behind trash in GA for others to pickup.

Trance
01-20-2016, 10:48
I tend to agree with Gambit.....

People abuse the trail from Springer - Neels in excess..... and that's where all of the people who are fair-weather hikers are starting daily. They watch their TV shows and read their books but have no idea about the harsh reality of days on end trail life... thus have little respect for the trail.

gpburdelljr
01-20-2016, 11:47
In slavery times, groups of young white men, sons of the plantation owners , would patrol the roads at night on horseback looking for runaways . In the dialect of the times, these groups of patrollers were called the "paddy rollers" by the slaves.

And now you know, where the term "paddy" in paddy wagon came from. In fact, the very act of policing and patrolling as we know it, started with policing the slaves. Which carries over into the historic distrust and fear of police black people still have today. Some things change slowly.


Many people wont go 1/2 mile off the AT for a shelter, darn sure not a campsite.
Sometimes I think trail clubs....just like to build new trail and change things


The concept of the shelters IS to overuse them. Its called concentrated impact. You preserve other areas, by sacrificing some.

While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".

Cotton Terry
01-20-2016, 12:39
I'm loving this thread. It's like a family Sunday dinner when I was a kid.

BTW, during my short section hike through this area last year, I was surprised by the number of tent sites along the trail between Springer and Neel Gap. For my thruhike this year, I'm going to shy away from the shelters.

wornoutboots
01-20-2016, 13:05
Why would anyone hike 1/2 mile off trail to camp when you can find wonderful, established sites hidden just off the trail?

cneill13
01-20-2016, 13:06
In defense of the thru-hikers, I have spent a week out of the last three Aprils hiking south on the NC and Georgia portions of the AT. I have met hundreds of thru-hikers heading north many on their first 1-4 weeks on the trail.

Yes, there is more garbage than normal. But I was also at a few shelters, the Rufus Morgan shelter in NC comes to mind, where there was not a spot of garbage anywhere. I even filmed it I was so impressed. And this was during the peak NOBO hiker bubble.

For the most part from what I have observed, 95% of the thru-hikers out there are respectful in leaving no trace and behave as would be expected.

But it is the 5% as always that mess things up for everyone else. They graffiti the shelters and leave heavy equipment and trash behind.

The problem is, there will always be that 5%, no matter how much you try to restrict activity on the trail.

Carl

Gambit McCrae
01-20-2016, 13:12
In defense of the thru-hikers, I have spent a week out of the last three Aprils hiking south on the NC and Georgia portions of the AT. I have met hundreds of thru-hikers heading north many on their first 1-4 weeks on the trail.

Yes, there is more garbage than normal. But I was also at a few shelters, the Rufus Morgan shelter in NC comes to mind, where there was not a spot of garbage anywhere. I even filmed it I was so impressed. And this was during the peak NOBO hiker bubble.

For the most part from what I have observed, 95% of the thru-hikers out there are respectful in leaving no trace and behave as would be expected.

But it is the 5% as always that mess things up for everyone else. They graffiti the shelters and leave heavy equipment and trash behind.

The problem is, there will always be that 5%, no matter how much you try to restrict activity on the trail.

Carl
Wonderful,
So only 50 out of 1000 folks are gunna trash the trail. That's just about enough to fill every shelter in Georgia. The point to all of this is how to educate the 5%, and not just deal with it.

Coffee
01-20-2016, 13:32
Why would anyone hike 1/2 mile off trail to camp when you can find wonderful, established sites hidden just off the trail?

The social aspect of the shelters seems to be a big draw. I sometimes stop at shelters to eat and talk to other hikers. It's nice to have a picnic table and sometimes there's already a fire going.

Lone Wolf
01-20-2016, 13:42
The point to all of this is how to educate the 5%, and not just deal with it.

i'll say it again for 100th time, put caretakers at every shelter/campsite on the GA AT

soilman
01-20-2016, 13:54
You can be critical of the ATC but they have been preserving and managing the trail for over 90 years. I think they probably have a grasp of the problems and potential solutions. They do have a policy on shelters and camping adopted in 2007 and this action fits this policy. I have read they are to increase the number of caretakers and ridgerunners this year. To me it is sad that a bunch of adults need to have babysitters.

Sarcasm the elf
01-20-2016, 14:10
i'll say it again for 100th time, put caretakers at every shelter/campsite on the GA AT

Agreed.

What if they also charged a nominal amount to camp at the established sites, say $3-$5 per night. I'm just thinking outloud, but I wonder if bringing a small amount of cash into the equation early on might manage some of the entitlement problems and expectations of free stuff. Plus it would more than pay for the care takers. It seems like the less experienced folks often have a strong preference to camping in numbers at the shelters so I wonder if they'd go for it.

Sarcasm the elf
01-20-2016, 14:13
You can be critical of the ATC but they have been preserving and managing the trail for over 90 years. I think they probably have a grasp of the problems and potential solutions. They do have a policy on shelters and camping adopted in 2007 and this action fits this policy. I have read they are to increase the number of caretakers and ridgerunners this year. To me it is sad that a bunch of adults need to have babysitters.

Problem is a lot of them are barely adults.

Speaking as a former young adult, there are a lot of 21 year olds that still have a lot of growing up to do. The same can be said of a few 40 and 60 year olds as well.

Coffee
01-20-2016, 14:25
Problem is a lot of them are barely adults.

Speaking as a former young adult, there are a lot of 21 year olds that still have a lot of growing up to do. The same can be said of a few 40 and 60 year olds as well.

People say that about young people but at least on the PCT at the start the vast majority of hikers in that age group were respectful and didn't seem to create any trouble (however, many do smoke a lot of pot ... not an issue for me but might be for some).

Puddlefish
01-20-2016, 14:26
While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".

I suspect you're right. Etymology is a tough thing to pin down exactly. Both seem to be bastardizations of the word patrol/patrol wagon. Words drift, and it's not unknown for the same word to drift in different locations at different times. One might have drifted because of the pronunciations, one might have drifted because of the Irish descent of the officers, or more cruelly the occupants in the back.

It's also a bit strange/coincidental that both groups have had ancestors enslaved in the past. Although, that can also be said of far too many groups. Growing up Irish, with recent ancestors from the Boston area, I always felt the term was derogatory and coined by Boston WASPs, rather than ex slaves. It would probably make an interesting research project/thesis paper.

As to the shelter, I'd much prefer a spread out tent/campus near a privy and water source than a noisy box. I do wonder "Why not both?" We'll just have to wait and see what they end up building and how it works out.

I officially booked my flight to Atlanta and my Hiker Hostel reservation today for April 6th, so I'll be interested in seeing what time frame "later this year" entails. If at all possible I'll be avoiding shelters anyway.

George
01-20-2016, 14:35
Yes, there is more garbage than normal. But I was also at a few shelters, the Rufus Morgan shelter in NC comes to mind, where there was not a spot of garbage anywhere. I even filmed it I was so impressed. And this was during the peak NOBO hiker bubble.

l

do not fool yourself that this was because no one left garbage - it was because it had recently been cleaned up

George
01-20-2016, 15:00
Why would anyone hike 1/2 mile off trail to camp when you can find wonderful, established sites hidden just off the trail?

here gets to the crux of the issue - no they are not going .5 off trail to camp, the maintainers will be overjoyed at how tidy the site / privy is (not thinking about how useless the effort to build it was because it is almost never used)

no, they are not going to camp at "hidden" spots, it will be spots visible from the trail that will get the lions share of extra use - spots of course without privies

what happens where people sleep? - it also is where they crap, think a little snow and frozen ground early season - wala crap piles everywhere there is a decent tent spot

this is what the shelter detractors fail to consider: "impact" = crap piles
if the shelter/ privy system has only one redeeming benefit it is minimizing "impact" (crap piles) from every usable camping spot along the trail - and around potential water sources

George
01-20-2016, 15:07
Wonderful,
So only 50 out of 1000 folks are gunna trash the trail. That's just about enough to fill every shelter in Georgia. The point to all of this is how to educate the 5%, and not just deal with it.
you are making the assumption that being "educated" = doing the right thing………. if this was true, there would be no white collar crime

George
01-20-2016, 15:14
Agreed.

What if they also charged a nominal amount to camp at the established sites, say $3-$5 per night. I'm just thinking outloud, but I wonder if bringing a small amount of cash into the equation early on might manage some of the entitlement problems and expectations of free stuff. Plus it would more than pay for the care takers. It seems like the less experienced folks often have a strong preference to camping in numbers at the shelters so I wonder if they'd go for it.

this would also tend to disperse "impact" who wants to pay for what is free a few hundred yards away

again when you think impact, think "crap piles"

Pedaling Fool
01-20-2016, 15:23
The word Paddy has its origins from the word Padraig ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig ) , which is basically an Irish male; the diminutives are either Podge or Paddy. And Paddy was often used as a pejorative. And since so many Irish were unruly and always getting arrested, the cops in certain parts of the country had to use wagons to round them up, hence the term Paddy Wagon eventually got coined, at least that' the theory, sounds pretty solid to me. See Paddy Wagon here>>> http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=irish


I think the word Paddy for African-American slaves had something to do with fields, but haven't really looked into it yet, but hopefully I will get some time later... I am kind of curious why they called them Paddy Rollers...

Gambit McCrae
01-20-2016, 15:28
you are making the assumption that being "educated" = doing the right thing………. if this was true, there would be no white collar crime

Using educated out of context George, I do not mean that because one knows calculus that they will not litter.

I mean that if there are caretakers and volunteer to educate people, Instead of give out sodas and hotdogs, in the form of showing them how to take care of our land and why it is important, that it will have a positive impact.

Wonder what the impact of Smoky the bear has been over the years. For one it was an iconic character for youngsters (our future generations), as well as a little tick in the back of our brain before leaving a campfire burning.

Same could work for the AT if the ATC started a "Only you can prevent littering" campaign with some stupid funny character.. Like a squirrel! lmao

Puddlefish
01-20-2016, 15:29
The word Paddy has its origins from the word Padraig ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padraig ) , which is basically an Irish male; the diminutives are either Podge or Paddy. And Paddy was often used as a pejorative. And since so many Irish were unruly and always getting arrested, the cops in certain parts of the country had to use wagons to round them up, hence the term Paddy Wagon eventually got coined, at least that' the theory, sounds pretty solid to me. See Paddy Wagon here>>> http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=irish


I think the word Paddy for African-American slaves had something to do with fields, but haven't really looked into it yet, but hopefully I will get some time later... I am kind of curious why they called them Paddy Rollers...

Patrols/Patrollers --> Padrol/Padrollers --> Paddy Rollers ---> Rollers (Blues Brothers NSFW language maybe) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJVW49723I)

Pedaling Fool
01-20-2016, 15:53
What's funny is that a Patroller is one that engages in a patrol and the word Patrol has its origins in the French language and it originally meant as one who paddles in the water or tramps thru the mud. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/patroller

But how African-Americans used the terms Patty (or Paddy) is unclear to me, but they did use the term Rollers as slang for cops, so if you put them together it can be Patroller. It's funny, but seems like patroller may have two separate origins....but I believe it's just a coincidence, but crazy....

George
01-20-2016, 16:05
Using educated out of context George, I do not mean that because one knows calculus that they will not litter.

I mean that if there are caretakers and volunteer to educate people, Instead of give out sodas and hotdogs, in the form of showing them how to take care of our land and why it is important, that it will have a positive impact.

Wonder what the impact of Smoky the bear has been over the years. For one it was an iconic character for youngsters (our future generations), as well as a little tick in the back of our brain before leaving a campfire burning.

Same could work for the AT if the ATC started a "Only you can prevent littering" campaign with some stupid funny character.. Like a squirrel! lmao

I took "educated" just as you meant it as in "LNT" - my point is knowing the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing

about the prevent littering - there used to be the "woodsy owl" champaign of "put trash in it's place (garbage receptacles) - now nearly every park /picnic area/ road crossing has removed the garbage cans ??????

on another note - always entertains me that the same people who comment about burning garbage/ plastic in a shelter fire pit never make any effort to clean up / haul out garbage

Puddlefish
01-20-2016, 16:15
I took "educated" just as you meant it as in "LNT" - my point is knowing the right thing is not the same as doing the right thing

about the prevent littering - there used to be the "woodsy owl" champaign of "put trash in it's place (garbage receptacles) - now nearly every park /picnic area/ road crossing has removed the garbage cans ??????

on another note - always entertains me that the same people who comment about burning garbage/ plastic in a shelter fire pit never make any effort to clean up / haul out garbage

It's amazing how a few hiking bloggers advocate LNT in one breath, then rationalize why they and they alone have such an intimate knowledge of the flora and fauna that they can make their own rules.

swisscross
01-20-2016, 16:30
i'll say it again for 100th time, put caretakers at every shelter/campsite on the GA AT

Put a door on them, serve the hikers supper and breakfast and charge them 130 dollars a night.

MuddyWaters
01-20-2016, 18:13
While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".


Paddy rollers became the municipal police departments. Primary function was slave / minority control before the war, and after for many decades.

The shortened paddy is simply slang for whats known as police.

Or you can believe its because people think all policeman are irish and paddy is like patrick...maybe up north in ny, not in the south.

MuddyWaters
01-20-2016, 18:19
While "paddy rollers" and "paddy wagon" both have "paddy" in the term, I don't think they are related in any other way, i.e. the term "paddy wagon" was not derived from the term "paddy roller".


Paddy rollers became the municipal police departments. Primary function was slave / minority control before the war, and after for many decades.

The shortened paddy is simply slang for whats known as police.

Or you can believe its because people think all policeman are irish and paddy is like patrick...

Paddy wagon means police wagon.

Slo-go'en
01-20-2016, 18:30
People have been trashing shelters and partying since forever, this is nothing new and unlikely to ever change. You can still find garbage pits full of rusting tin cans near some old shelters from a time when leaving garbage was a common practice.

The fact that there are so many more people on the trail multiplies the problem, but considering how many people are now on the trail, the problem is not as bad as it could be.

jcamp
01-20-2016, 21:45
I'm loving this thread. It's like a family Sunday dinner when I was a kid.

BTW, during my short section hike through this area last year, I was surprised by the number of tent sites along the trail between Springer and Neel Gap. For my thruhike this year, I'm going to shy away from the shelters.

That sums it up for me... "Sunday dinner". I'm not a thruhiker but Terry has the right idea... although, there is a fine line between camping away from the shelters and creating a bigger footprint. At the end of the day, it's about being considerate (responsible) enough to leave no trace... So next time it looks new to the next person.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

1234
01-21-2016, 11:39
I would like to thank the ATC, GATC, US Forest Service and David Stelts for requesting/orchestrating volunteers to help in this HUGE project.

I drove 9 hours to volunteer and am part of TATC and ALDHA . Volunteers (men and women) from PATC and Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club also drove many hours to be part of this project. Experts figured out how to manage larger amounts of hikers and came up with this plan. The side trail is at least an hour drive on gravel roads and at least a 45 min hike up and down several hills to get to so I do not expect hordes of party animals. There is not a big area of tent sites but as you walk down the side trail widely dispersed tent pads that are carved into steep slopes are all along the way so the first there get the close ones. The pads are 10 x 12 feet so several 1 man tents can fit or 2 larger tents. Widow makers were cut down so there is less chance of a tree falling on a site. Remember strong healthy trees can and do also fall. It took about 50 volunteers from the GATC to cut in the new trail, I along with others cut in 13 of 30 pads to be built. Most pads cannot see the other sites but in winter with colorful tents they may be visible. There will be a smoldering privy that will be HUGE about half way along the trail, at the end is a YEAR ROUND spring. These sites are grand and have a great view. With time and a bit of perfecting they will be flat, no rocks, no roots and not dished out mud puddles. Of course right now they are frozen dirt. Oh by the way it was 11 degrees and I do not think it got above 32. Millions of rocks were dug out and millions of roots were cut. 200 Army Rangers have also volunteered to bring in all the parts of the privy. Please join clubs and volunteer for projects like this and be a part of change.

4eyedbuzzard
01-21-2016, 12:07
I would like to thank the ATC, GATC, US Forest Service and David Stelts for requesting/orchestrating volunteers to help in this HUGE project.

I drove 9 hours to volunteer and am part of TATC and ALDHA . Volunteers (men and women) from PATC and Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club also drove many hours to be part of this project. Experts figured out how to manage larger amounts of hikers and came up with this plan. The side trail is at least an hour drive on gravel roads and at least a 45 min hike up and down several hills to get to so I do not expect hordes of party animals. There is not a big area of tent sites but as you walk down the side trail widely dispersed tent pads that are carved into steep slopes are all along the way so the first there get the close ones. The pads are 10 x 12 feet so several 1 man tents can fit or 2 larger tents. Widow makers were cut down so there is less chance of a tree falling on a site. Remember strong healthy trees can and do also fall. It took about 50 volunteers from the GATC to cut in the new trail, I along with others cut in 13 of 30 pads to be built. Most pads cannot see the other sites but in winter with colorful tents they may be visible. There will be a smoldering privy that will be HUGE about half way along the trail, at the end is a YEAR ROUND spring. These sites are grand and have a great view. With time and a bit of perfecting they will be flat, no rocks, no roots and not dished out mud puddles. Of course right now they are frozen dirt. Oh by the way it was 11 degrees and I do not think it got above 32. Millions of rocks were dug out and millions of roots were cut. 200 Army Rangers have also volunteered to bring in all the parts of the privy. Please join clubs and volunteer for projects like this and be a part of change.Wow, quite an undertaking. Sounds like a well planned and executed project. You all deserve a lot of thanks for your efforts.

slbirdnerd
01-21-2016, 15:28
I stayed at Hawk Mountain shelter (and several others south of Fontana) when it was not thru-hiker season. I was hiking with my then 10-year-old son. There were around 10 section hikers in the vicinity, some in the shelter, some not. The area was clean and everyone on site was kind and respectful. Too bad for all the generalizations, when there are (as usual) a few ruining it for the rest of us.

imscotty
01-21-2016, 17:32
I view this as a positive development. It should discourage the unprepared and perhaps help disperse large groups of hikers. I suspect that this is an experiment that you may see expanded upon throughout the Georgia section.

JumpMaster Blaster
01-21-2016, 18:34
This......

Besides Hawk Mountain doesn't exactly feel like wilderness when you're being lulled to sleep by nearby suppressive fire. (Not that I minded, I was perfectly happy to know that Army Rangers are nearby)

On a good night at home, I am soothed and lulled to sleep by suppressive fire, indirect fire, and the sweet, sweet sounds of fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft flying overhead (I live near Fort Bragg and my house is along a flight corridor).

RangerZ
01-21-2016, 19:33
On a good night at home, I am soothed and lulled to sleep by suppressive fire, indirect fire, and the sweet, sweet sounds of fixed-wing and rotary-wing aircraft flying overhead (I live near Fort Bragg and my house is along a flight corridor).


A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away ... no wait, that's a different story ... I lived near Iron Mike and the club.

Turk6177
01-21-2016, 19:58
I think people are too glued to the shelter areas early on. When I did the GA section, I didn't spend one night in or around a shelter. There were so many wonderful camp spots all along the trail. I don't think I could walk more than 15 minutes without hitting one.

FatMan
01-22-2016, 08:15
I view this as a positive development. It should discourage the unprepared and perhaps help disperse large groups of hikers. I suspect that this is an experiment that you may see expanded upon throughout the Georgia section.I do believe this was a major consideration in the decision making process. This now leaves only Stover Creek and Gooch Mtn in the first 25 miles. And Stover is too short for day one and Gooch is too long for most on day one. That leaves these new tent pads and tent pads at Justus Creek and all the non official trail side campsites. This pretty much makes night one without a shelter and will disperse the crowd first day.

Sly
01-22-2016, 09:12
Tearing down shelters because of overuse!! The logical response would be to build more shelters.

Or in this case tent pads. Seems silly to tear down the shelter which will concentrate the impact.

turtle fast
01-27-2016, 02:23
I hope that this dispersed tent pad idea works but I'm leery that it just spreads damage over a wider area. Personally I'd rather concentrate the damage and improve the area by adding tent row pads on the barren areas. As well, charge a nominal fee to cover the cost of a caretaker and keeping the shelter in shape.

rocketsocks
01-27-2016, 08:39
The problem as I see it is the ideation that the trail needs to be hiked in one shot starting in March, April or May. Loose that style, solve many problems.

Grampie
01-27-2016, 10:45
The thought behind removing Hawk Mtn. shelter may be that if the beginning of the trail in Georgia is made a little less hiker friendly a lot of the mystique of being a thru-hiker would diminish the amount of hikers.

4eyedbuzzard
01-27-2016, 10:51
Split the AT into two paths from Springer to Davenport Gap - one following the modern routing, the other using parts of the BMT and original AT and/or some new trail. This could cut the impact in half all the way from Springer through GSMNP. Yeah, I know, BMT fans wouldn't be happy.

Gambit McCrae
01-27-2016, 11:12
Split the AT into two paths from Springer to Davenport Gap - one following the modern routing, the other using parts of the BMT and original AT and/or some new trail. This could cut the impact in half all the way from Springer through GSMNP. Yeah, I know, BMT fans wouldn't be happy.

cool concept right here

Skyline
01-27-2016, 12:40
Wonderful,
So only 50 out of 1000 folks are gunna trash the trail. That's just about enough to fill every shelter in Georgia. The point to all of this is how to educate the 5%, and not just deal with it.

Unfortunately, some of that 5% have no interested in being educated, they just want to do anything that gives them instant gratification and are also lazy to the bone. How do WBers think they should be dealt with?

Lone Wolf's suggestion to put caretakers at each shelter in GA has merit, at least in the Spring. But is that enough?

Skyline
01-27-2016, 12:50
I would like to thank the ATC, GATC, US Forest Service and David Stelts for requesting/orchestrating volunteers to help in this HUGE project.

I drove 9 hours to volunteer and am part of TATC and ALDHA . Volunteers (men and women) from PATC and Tennessee Eastman Hiking Club also drove many hours to be part of this project. Experts figured out how to manage larger amounts of hikers and came up with this plan. The side trail is at least an hour drive on gravel roads and at least a 45 min hike up and down several hills to get to so I do not expect hordes of party animals. There is not a big area of tent sites but as you walk down the side trail widely dispersed tent pads that are carved into steep slopes are all along the way so the first there get the close ones. The pads are 10 x 12 feet so several 1 man tents can fit or 2 larger tents. Widow makers were cut down so there is less chance of a tree falling on a site. Remember strong healthy trees can and do also fall. It took about 50 volunteers from the GATC to cut in the new trail, I along with others cut in 13 of 30 pads to be built. Most pads cannot see the other sites but in winter with colorful tents they may be visible. There will be a smoldering privy that will be HUGE about half way along the trail, at the end is a YEAR ROUND spring. These sites are grand and have a great view. With time and a bit of perfecting they will be flat, no rocks, no roots and not dished out mud puddles. Of course right now they are frozen dirt. Oh by the way it was 11 degrees and I do not think it got above 32. Millions of rocks were dug out and millions of roots were cut. 200 Army Rangers have also volunteered to bring in all the parts of the privy. Please join clubs and volunteer for projects like this and be a part of change.


This sounds very much like what I wrote about in post #20 (page 1) of this thread. Glad to see this being done in a place that sorely needed it. Jeff Marion would be beaming!

Just so you know: even a campus of tentsites like this, built into sidehill, will need occasional maintenance. Weather can cause erosion on the individual tentsites which should not be left unchecked. Plus the usual site cleanup and rehabbing of the moldering privy. But it shouldn't take more than two worktrips per year vs. many more for a shelter near the trail or worse yet also near a road.

Slo-go'en
01-27-2016, 13:27
The thought behind removing Hawk Mtn. shelter may be that if the beginning of the trail in Georgia is made a little less hiker friendly a lot of the mystique of being a thru-hiker would diminish the amount of hikers.

But no one is going to know that until they get there. Is the hope that people will get discouraged the first or second day out, then turn around and go home? I don't see that as being very likely. At least no more then usual.

1234
01-27-2016, 14:28
The thought behind removing Hawk Mtn. shelter may be that if the beginning of the trail in Georgia is made a little less hiker friendly a lot of the mystique of being a thru-hiker would diminish the amount of hikers.

No, not at all. Nobody wants to be unfriendly to hikers. Just the opposite, to have a privy that is open and not piled up to the seat, to have LEVEL cool tent sites. 30 tent sites - - a huge privy - - - dependable "spring" not creek, well away from the tent sites and privy. Last year March ~ 9th I stayed in Hawk shelter, just before dark only 1 other person was in the shelter, however the place was a campground of tents most on slopes in mud holes etc. late comers did fill up the shelter but the majority of hikers did not want to stay in the shelter for fear of whatever. The new setup is much more friendly to hikers.

Some one needed to do something about 50 plus hikers concentrated in flat areas the first few days on the trail. I think the approach taken may work if not try try again. I am not sure where the rumor started about Hawk shelter coming down, I have not heard it was scheduled for demo, I think they just want to lessen the impact of the Hawk mt shelter area. Oh the new Hawk "campground" will have metal bear boxes, no cables. The bears figured out the cables (hikers use them incorrectly). OH and by the way there will be this year 5 overseers one to stay at Hawk and one for the campground. 24/7 during hiker season.

Did you think about this? Most folks cook to much food night 1 and 2 on the trail so they dump it in the woods and privy and water source. Mice go into the privy to eat this food and walk all over the feces, they walk back to the shelter to climb all over you and your stuff.

cneill13
01-28-2016, 09:11
"I am not sure where the rumor started about Hawk shelter coming down, I have not heard it was scheduled for demo."

I'll admit it, I spread the rumor that the Hawk Mountain Shelter was coming down. Only because that is what the trail maintainers who were working the project told me.

But reading the link provided on page 1 about the Hawk Mountain project, it sounds like no formal decision about removing the shelter has been made.

Sorry about the misinformation.

Carl

Gambit McCrae
01-28-2016, 09:29
Unfortunately, some of that 5% have no interested in being educated, they just want to do anything that gives them instant gratification and are also lazy to the bone. How do WBers think they should be dealt with?

Lone Wolf's suggestion to put caretakers at each shelter in GA has merit, at least in the Spring. But is that enough?

Caretakers at shelters/ Eliminating GA shelters

A "thru Hiker permit" with a price tag steep enough to make people think about it. Say $100? I don't think that everyone that starts would still start if they had to pay $100 bucks. (REQUIRE registration)

Encourage a ban of trail magic south of the Smokies- (Rant warning shall follow) IMO besides completing Georgia as a state, getting thru the Smokies is the first big accolade for a hiker. I don't understand why people give a reward for something that doesn't deserve a reward? The result of less trail magic early on would take some hot air out of a lot of folks, over time dissolve the hopes of fresh hotdogs and cold beer "at the next road" and sweeten the pot for those that put the effort in. -Instead of Trail Magic ie giving out hotdogs, give out EDUCATION. Educate the hiker community on the dos and don'ts. Preach LNT and give out zip locks for trash, and have trash cans available.

Cookerhiker
01-28-2016, 12:14
Caretakers at shelters/ Eliminating GA shelters

A "thru Hiker permit" with a price tag steep enough to make people think about it. Say $100? I don't think that everyone that starts would still start if they had to pay $100 bucks. (REQUIRE registration)

Encourage a ban of trail magic south of the Smokies- (Rant warning shall follow) IMO besides completing Georgia as a state, getting thru the Smokies is the first big accolade for a hiker. I don't understand why people give a reward for something that doesn't deserve a reward? The result of less trail magic early on would take some hot air out of a lot of folks, over time dissolve the hopes of fresh hotdogs and cold beer "at the next road" and sweeten the pot for those that put the effort in. -Instead of Trail Magic ie giving out hotdogs, give out EDUCATION. Educate the hiker community on the dos and don'ts. Preach LNT and give out zip locks for trash, and have trash cans available.

Two comments:

1. Your proposed $100 fee covers only Springer Mountain starts and only in the "busy" time of year, i.e. Feb. 20-April 15? Or are you also requiring it of SOBOs starting in July in Maine? What about flipfloppers and others who hike the alternates as suggested by the ATC? What about section hikers who start in Georgia in prime season (not hypothetical - I was one!) and only intend to hike to the Smokies or to Hiawassee or Damascus or.... Those hiking the trail and using the shelters include section hikers and even weekenders.

Assuming resolution of the points above, enforcement of the fee would be costly. Those trails where permits are required - whether free or with a fee - are in areas with fewer access points than the AT like the JMT and Wonderland Trail. The Smokies have numerous side trail access points but only one road in the middle.

In any case, I have no problem with the concept of a user fee - we - and of course the ATC and Forest Service - need to think it through.

2. You don't ban "trail magic." You ban or restrict "hiker feeds." And since the word "ban" introduces or at least implies legalisms, how do you define hiker feed as to size/scope and location? I realize you said "encourage" but I question how much of a difference such "encouragement" will actually make.

Slo-go'en
01-28-2016, 12:37
I suspect for many, finding so called "Trail Magic" comes as something of a surprise. It's also hit or miss. You have to be at the right place at the right time. Depending on many factors, you might hit a lot of hiker feed trail magic, or you might miss them all. It's a nice treat when you do bump into someone handing out hot dogs or donuts. I doubt the presence or lack of "trail magic" has any significant baring on someone's decision to thru hike or not.

The same goes with shelters. They have limited occupancy so being able to use them is hit or miss. You can't count on using them, but they serve to concentrate usage to a specific area and are really handy for people hiking in the "off" season.

Skyline
01-28-2016, 13:09
Caretakers at shelters/ Eliminating GA shelters

A "thru Hiker permit" with a price tag steep enough to make people think about it. Say $100? I don't think that everyone that starts would still start if they had to pay $100 bucks. (REQUIRE registration)

Encourage a ban of trail magic south of the Smokies- (Rant warning shall follow) IMO besides completing Georgia as a state, getting thru the Smokies is the first big accolade for a hiker. I don't understand why people give a reward for something that doesn't deserve a reward? The result of less trail magic early on would take some hot air out of a lot of folks, over time dissolve the hopes of fresh hotdogs and cold beer "at the next road" and sweeten the pot for those that put the effort in. -Instead of Trail Magic ie giving out hotdogs, give out EDUCATION. Educate the hiker community on the dos and don'ts. Preach LNT and give out zip locks for trash, and have trash cans available.


Not sure how that fee thing would work in GA or any trail with so many access points, but it's worth considering. Perhaps NPS could give ridgerunners the legal authority to do something regarding LD hikers found in the zone who don't have a permit. Kinda like Park Rangers can do now in SNP.

I also think hikers themselves could be more vocal, and band together when appropriate, to confront that 5% or less who are ruining the AT experience for the other 95%+. Too often they (we?) just say HYOH, which doesn't apply to the behaviors we've been talking about. If the bad guys feel shunned--and aren't having a good time because of it--some may reform, others may leave the Trail. We might be talking about less than 1% left then, which could be more manageable with a solid effort by ridgerunners combining with law enforcement. It's a shame it has come to this--ordinarily I'd be against this sort of thing--but the situation, especially up to Fontana in the Spring, kinda needs a little shock treatment for a few years.

Uncle Joe
01-28-2016, 13:58
I've worked trail for over ten years. Mostly in mountain biking groups but typically multi-use trail. There's always a percentage of yahoo's and education is a constant when you maintain public use areas. You just have to keep at it with the understanding that you're not going to ever stop it. The best you can do is get it down to a manageable level but you're lucky if you do. I've sat at Hawk Mnt Shelter and have video, in fact, of the Leave No Trace sign contrasted with the garbage sitting in the fire pit. That said, all in all it wasn't terribly bad and could have been much, much worse. Still, you have to wonder about the mindset. At least that shelter is a short jaunt from the forest road (a blessing and a curse) and cleanup is far more convenient than say Gooch or say Woods Hole.

Puddlefish
01-28-2016, 13:59
Not sure how that fee thing would work in GA or any trail with so many access points, but it's worth considering. Perhaps NPS could give ridgerunners the legal authority to do something regarding LD hikers found in the zone who don't have a permit. Kinda like Park Rangers can do now in SNP.

I also think hikers themselves could be more vocal, and band together when appropriate, to confront that 5% or less who are ruining the AT experience for the other 95%+. Too often they (we?) just say HYOH, which doesn't apply to the behaviors we've been talking about. If the bad guys feel shunned--and aren't having a good time because of it--some may reform, others may leave the Trail. We might be talking about less than 1% left then, which could be more manageable with a solid effort by ridgerunners combining with law enforcement. It's a shame it has come to this--ordinarily I'd be against this sort of thing--but the situation, especially up to Fontana in the Spring, kinda needs a little shock treatment for a few years.

I don't see this happening. One group will complain about people staying up late, the other group will complain about people getting up early. People are convinced that their trash is burnable, yet someone else's trash isn't burnable. They just have no idea that their actions might negatively impact others. Confront them, and you'll have a screaming match on your hands. Some jerk on his high horse told poor innocent little me, that I was ruining their experience! That made me sad, and ruined my trip! They'll never even consider that they were in the wrong, only that they were wronged. I hate people sometimes. I read this stuff all the time in hiking blogs.

upstream
01-28-2016, 15:13
According to the scoping lette (http://a123.g.akamai.net/7/123/11558/abc123/forestservic.download.akamai.com/11558/www/nepa/102591_FSPLT3_2572004.pdf)r, the privy will be decommissioned after the new, larger one is built down the hill near the campsites. The shelter itself "May" be relocated at a future time down the hill near the campsites.

I've heard that if hikers don't stop camping on the knoll behind the shelter, that "decommissioning" would be recommended.

The shelter is supposed to get it's own caretaker this thru-hiker season.

Skyline
01-28-2016, 17:47
I don't see this happening. One group will complain about people staying up late, the other group will complain about people getting up early. People are convinced that their trash is burnable, yet someone else's trash isn't burnable. They just have no idea that their actions might negatively impact others. Confront them, and you'll have a screaming match on your hands. Some jerk on his high horse told poor innocent little me, that I was ruining their experience! That made me sad, and ruined my trip! They'll never even consider that they were in the wrong, only that they were wronged. I hate people sometimes. I read this stuff all the time in hiking blogs.


There really should be no controversy about things like what is burnable, not doing your laundry/dishwashing/defecating at or near a water source, littering, graffiti, or the more extreme examples of bad behavior in trail towns. These deserve the condemnation of the rest of us who give a damn--in real time as well as online. No, it might not be wise to confront an individual or group on your own, but if we can get more hikers to step up as a group to "educate" those few who do this stuff it would probably help.

Example: You're at a shelter or camping area and witness some of this going on. You discreetly talk to a few others about it (you may already know them, or feel like they might be on your page). Together, you make a decision to calmly say something to the offender(s). It doesn't NEED to get violent; you're only letting a person know this isn't what most hikers expect from him/her. If enough AT users get in the habit of doing this, especially in small groups, it could be effective. Imagine if the same person has such a conversation from a group of hikers three times in his/her first week on the Trail. It is unlikely they will want to keep having those conversations for six months. They will likely change their ways, or go back to "society" where their BS is better tolerated. The few who stay on the Trail but don't mend their ways should be small enough in numbers that ridgerunners (and maybe law enforcement in the most extreme instances) can be expected to deal with them. Writing about it online may help a little. Dealing with it in the woods could be one of the more productive solutions.

This is a cultural change that needs to happen, and it will possibly take at least a decade to reap significant results. But ya gotta start somewhere.

In short, IMHO if we could change the mindset and culture of most in the hiking community to let them know it's OK (and preferable) to get involved when they see real examples of someone causing damage to the Trail and its reputation in towns, preferably with safety in numbers, it could help.

Or am I being naive? Hope not...

Puddlefish
01-28-2016, 19:13
There really should be no controversy about things like what is burnable, not doing your laundry/dishwashing/defecating at or near a water source, littering, graffiti, or the more extreme examples of bad behavior in trail towns. These deserve the condemnation of the rest of us who give a damn--in real time as well as online. No, it might not be wise to confront an individual or group on your own, but if we can get more hikers to step up as a group to "educate" those few who do this stuff it would probably help.

Example: You're at a shelter or camping area and witness some of this going on. You discreetly talk to a few others about it (you may already know them, or feel like they might be on your page). Together, you make a decision to calmly say something to the offender(s). It doesn't NEED to get violent; you're only letting a person know this isn't what most hikers expect from him/her. If enough AT users get in the habit of doing this, especially in small groups, it could be effective. Imagine if the same person has such a conversation from a group of hikers three times in his/her first week on the Trail. It is unlikely they will want to keep having those conversations for six months. They will likely change their ways, or go back to "society" where their BS is better tolerated. The few who stay on the Trail but don't mend their ways should be small enough in numbers that ridgerunners (and maybe law enforcement in the most extreme instances) can be expected to deal with them. Writing about it online may help a little. Dealing with it in the woods could be one of the more productive solutions.

This is a cultural change that needs to happen, and it will possibly take at least a decade to reap significant results. But ya gotta start somewhere.

In short, IMHO if we could change the mindset and culture of most in the hiking community to let them know it's OK (and preferable) to get involved when they see real examples of someone causing damage to the Trail and its reputation in towns, preferably with safety in numbers, it could help.

Or am I being naive? Hope not...

I'd love to agree with you. I very much wish that when we gently confront people about their poor behavior, that they'll just accept it gracefully and change their ways. You can give it a try, and I'm sure it will work with some people.

Then again, what if you form your posse, and the punk just smirks at you? Then what are you going to do? Beat them up, continue to chastise them, call the police, walk away in embarrassment while they laugh at you? What if it's just a borderline rule? Do you let it go, if you otherwise like that person? Confront them if you don't? Going to be the judge and jury?

By all means shun and avoid the idiots, or quietly talk to them on your own, but don't expect that people will thank you for adding drama to the trail.

Sarcasm the elf
01-28-2016, 19:39
I'd love to agree with you. I very much wish that when we gently confront people about their poor behavior, that they'll just accept it gracefully and change their ways. You can give it a try, and I'm sure it will work with some people.

Then again, what if you form your posse, and the punk just smirks at you? Then what are you going to do? Beat them up, continue to chastise them, call the police, walk away in embarrassment while they laugh at you? What if it's just a borderline rule? Do you let it go, if you otherwise like that person? Confront them if you don't? Going to be the judge and jury?

By all means shun and avoid the idiots, or quietly talk to them on your own, but don't expect that people will thank you for adding drama to the trail.

AT the least Get their trail names and put the word out, especially with hostel owners and trail angels, word travels fast and they'll soon find themselves unwelcome at many places they expected stay.

Puddlefish
01-28-2016, 19:45
AT the least Get their trail names and put the word out, especially with hostel owners and trail angels, word travels fast and they'll soon find themselves unwelcome at many places they expected stay.

This sounds like a far more effective form of self policing.

George
01-28-2016, 19:49
This sounds like a far more effective form of self policing.

because it is so difficult to change a trail nome

Puddlefish
01-28-2016, 19:57
because it is so difficult to change a trail nome

If they've changed their trail name out of shame, maybe they've changed their behavior and are trying to make a fresh start? No doubt in a cloud of sunshine and happiness. ... or it may just be an alias to spread more chaos in their wake.

Some people are awesome, some aren't.

Slo-go'en
01-28-2016, 20:22
There really should be no controversy about things like what is burnable, not doing your laundry/dishwashing/defecating at or near a water source, littering, graffiti, or the more extreme examples of bad behavior in trail towns.
Or am I being naive? Hope not...

I called out some thru hikers for burning plastic in the camp fire just into Maine. That didn't go over well.

Skyline
01-29-2016, 01:04
I'd love to agree with you. I very much wish that when we gently confront people about their poor behavior, that they'll just accept it gracefully and change their ways. You can give it a try, and I'm sure it will work with some people.

Then again, what if you form your posse, and the punk just smirks at you? Then what are you going to do? Beat them up, continue to chastise them, call the police, walk away in embarrassment while they laugh at you? What if it's just a borderline rule? Do you let it go, if you otherwise like that person? Confront them if you don't? Going to be the judge and jury?

By all means shun and avoid the idiots, or quietly talk to them on your own, but don't expect that people will thank you for adding drama to the trail.


I'm definitely not forming posses, and I'm not advocating violence. Talk about drama! Sure, some smarta** kid might smirk. At least he'll know what he's doing is unpopular with a lot of the people he thought he'd find to be his trail buds. Which means he'll be unpopular. The next move would be up to him. Peer pressure sometimes does work to change behavior.

Gambit McCrae
01-29-2016, 08:31
I'm definitely not forming posses, and I'm not advocating violence. Talk about drama! Sure, some smarta** kid might smirk. At least he'll know what he's doing is unpopular with a lot of the people he thought he'd find to be his trail buds. Which means he'll be unpopular. The next move would be up to him. Peer pressure sometimes does work to change behavior.

I try and pick up all the trash I can along the way, when its an overwhelming pile I hate to see it stay but it usually does.

Last summer I was in the Scotts Gulf Wilderness area when I came upon a beautiful waterfall with some lovely limearita cans strewn at the bottom, I was so irate. I scrambled down cussing and impulsions. Picked them up, fell in the water, cracked my trekking pole...now I'm really pissed..

Got up and continued trotting down the trail for the rest of my hike, I had high hopes of finding some limearita drinkers on down the trail but to no avail, they got away :mad:

rocketsocks
01-29-2016, 08:51
I try and pick up all the trash I can along the way, when its an overwhelming pile I hate to see it stay but it usually does.

Last summer I was in the Scotts Gulf Wilderness area when I came upon a beautiful waterfall with some lovely limearita cans strewn at the bottom, I was so irate. I scrambled down cussing and impulsions. Picked them up, fell in the water, cracked my trekking pole...now I'm really pissed..

Got up and continued trotting down the trail for the rest of my hike, I had high hopes it finding some limearita drinkers on down the trail but to no avail, they got away :mad:its just litter dude, don't give your self an aneurism over it, just pick up what ya can...its all we can do.

Puddlefish
01-29-2016, 13:35
I'm definitely not forming posses, and I'm not advocating violence. Talk about drama! Sure, some smarta** kid might smirk. At least he'll know what he's doing is unpopular with a lot of the people he thought he'd find to be his trail buds. Which means he'll be unpopular. The next move would be up to him. Peer pressure sometimes does work to change behavior.

I know you aren't intending to start drama and violence, however what you intend, and what actually happens may be two very different things. You can HYOH and try your method yourself. Good luck with it. Don't be surprised if people treat you like you're the "Left Lane Speed Limit Guy" and you find yourself on the wrong end of the peer pressure groups. Group popularity is a poor moral standard.

Calling out people in public can make them react poorly. Don't assume that anyone is going to react in the same way you might react. You don't know what issues they have, you don't know what drugs they might be on, you don't know their history.

Skyline
01-30-2016, 00:48
Calling out people in public can make them react poorly. Don't assume that anyone is going to react in the same way you might react. You don't know what issues they have, you don't know what drugs they might be on, you don't know their history.

This wouldn't work as well, or maybe at all, as a solo act. It's when that 5% understands that most of his potential hiker buds take a dim view of the stuff he does that hurts the Trail, diminishes the Trail experience for others, and harms the reputation of the AT and its hikers in trail towns--that it has a chance for success. So it takes small groups to make that impression, and maybe provide safety in numbers.

So, you don't like this suggestion. Fair enough. Do you have an alternative in mind that would stand a good chance at improving the growing problem of bad hiker behavior on the AT and in trail towns/hostels? That was my original question/challenge anyway before I started hiking down this side trail. Same question to all. Advocacy campaigns by ALDHA and ATC probably do some good, but the problem is still with us.

Puddlefish
01-30-2016, 12:01
This wouldn't work as well, or maybe at all, as a solo act. It's when that 5% understands that most of his potential hiker buds take a dim view of the stuff he does that hurts the Trail, diminishes the Trail experience for others, and harms the reputation of the AT and its hikers in trail towns--that it has a chance for success. So it takes small groups to make that impression, and maybe provide safety in numbers.

So, you don't like this suggestion. Fair enough. Do you have an alternative in mind that would stand a good chance at improving the growing problem of bad hiker behavior on the AT and in trail towns/hostels? That was my original question/challenge anyway before I started hiking down this side trail. Same question to all. Advocacy campaigns by ALDHA and ATC probably do some good, but the problem is still with us.

TLDR version: That 5% can be crazy and dangerous.

My alternative is to do what we're doing right now. Spread awareness pre-hike. In the internet age, that vast majority of the population has the ability to get information, on backpacking, on hiking, on camping. Chances are they'll stumble across the LNT concept and read about it once or twice. The more often they read about it, the more often they'll memorize it, the more often they'll consider "Hey, these ideas not only limit my actions, but they provide me some real benefit as well."

If someone chooses to act like the ass on the trail, chances are they somehow are clueless how the internet works, and about LNT principles, or that they've chosen that the rules don't apply to me, or I'm smarter than everyone else, or screw those treehuggers, or generally some combination of anti social, entitled, selfish, lazy, and self centered. The first group can be educated by a single person telling them about the LNT goals. The second group, aren't going to care what you have to say, mommy never told them no, and some group of preachy people ganging up on them might just make them throw a tantrum. People can get insanely protective of their ideas.

Forming a group, escalates the situation. Humans in groups are dangerous things. You might not know that person you invited into your vigilante education group. That person might have different ideas from just polite education. When someone smirks at him, that person might throw a punch. Suddenly, you're the one breaking up a fight.

Lead by example, speak one on one only if you feel it's safe to do so, control what you can control, move on down the trail and keep away from the people who are ruining your experience. Take a picture, report to authorities, warn other hikers of the situation.

I retired from a non-armed, field, federal law enforcement position. I'm trained in conflict resolution. I've dealt with many thousands of people on the wrong side of the law. The vast majority you can help out through empathy, education and access to helpful tools. There remains a smaller percent who know exactly what they're doing, and don't care about social niceties. An even smaller minority were flat out dangerous. I also spent a few years in a miserable apartment complex. Confronting most of these people would result in screaming matches, get your property damaged, or get you beat up.

Do what your going to do, just be aware of the consequences.

Skyline
01-30-2016, 13:13
TLDR version: That 5% can be crazy and dangerous.

My alternative is to do what we're doing right now. Spread awareness pre-hike. In the internet age, that vast majority of the population has the ability to get information, on backpacking, on hiking, on camping. Chances are they'll stumble across the LNT concept and read about it once or twice. The more often they read about it, the more often they'll memorize it, the more often they'll consider "Hey, these ideas not only limit my actions, but they provide me some real benefit as well."

If someone chooses to act like the ass on the trail, chances are they somehow are clueless how the internet works, and about LNT principles, or that they've chosen that the rules don't apply to me, or I'm smarter than everyone else, or screw those treehuggers, or generally some combination of anti social, entitled, selfish, lazy, and self centered. The first group can be educated by a single person telling them about the LNT goals. The second group, aren't going to care what you have to say, mommy never told them no, and some group of preachy people ganging up on them might just make them throw a tantrum. People can get insanely protective of their ideas.

Forming a group, escalates the situation. Humans in groups are dangerous things. You might not know that person you invited into your vigilante education group. That person might have different ideas from just polite education. When someone smirks at him, that person might throw a punch. Suddenly, you're the one breaking up a fight.

Lead by example, speak one on one only if you feel it's safe to do so, control what you can control, move on down the trail and keep away from the people who are ruining your experience. Take a picture, report to authorities, warn other hikers of the situation.

I retired from a non-armed, field, federal law enforcement position. I'm trained in conflict resolution. I've dealt with many thousands of people on the wrong side of the law. The vast majority you can help out through empathy, education and access to helpful tools. There remains a smaller percent who know exactly what they're doing, and don't care about social niceties. An even smaller minority were flat out dangerous. I also spent a few years in a miserable apartment complex. Confronting most of these people would result in screaming matches, get your property damaged, or get you beat up.

Do what your going to do, just be aware of the consequences.


You've given this a lot of thought, and your previous career experience gives you special credibility to speak to the issue. There are the rare circumstances where an AT confrontation would seem to mirror one in an inner city housing project. Drugs and all. I would not advocate confronting people in that situation either. Your alternatives make sense.

I suppose my larger point, aside from a specific example I gave earlier, is to advocate the 95% get involved more in some way, and to feel empowered more, to try to change the AT experience back to what it once was. Or closer to what it was. A truly cultural change needs to happen on the AT, and it will take many years. Each person should do this in his or her own way. What we cannot (should not) do is continue to look the other way and blindly recite HYOH when we see the worst examples of bad outcomes being perpetuated by the behavior of the 5%.

Some combination of what you've written, plus what I and a few others have written, will likely further that goal.

Puddlefish
01-30-2016, 13:47
You've given this a lot of thought, and your previous career experience gives you special credibility to speak to the issue. There are the rare circumstances where an AT confrontation would seem to mirror one in an inner city housing project. Drugs and all. I would not advocate confronting people in that situation either. Your alternatives make sense.

I suppose my larger point, aside from a specific example I gave earlier, is to advocate the 95% get involved more in some way, and to feel empowered more, to try to change the AT experience back to what it once was. Or closer to what it was. A truly cultural change needs to happen on the AT, and it will take many years. Each person should do this in his or her own way. What we cannot (should not) do is continue to look the other way and blindly recite HYOH when we see the worst examples of bad outcomes being perpetuated by the behavior of the 5%.

Some combination of what you've written, plus what I and a few others have written, will likely further that goal.

By all means, try something. There's that famous quote by the dead guy "All that it requires for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." Just think about how your message will be perceived, and how they might react. It's a bit like right of way between two boats. You can be right, and still get run over and killed.

NewHeart
01-31-2016, 18:08
So, I'm a Newbie NOBO leaving late April, will Hawk Mtn. be open? Is there a better place to hang?

WingedMonkey
01-31-2016, 18:27
So, I'm a Newbie NOBO leaving late April, will Hawk Mtn. be open? Is there a better place to hang?

You're in a National Forest.

Dispersed camping is allowed almost anywhere if you follow the guidelines.

Dispersed crapping is also allowed, did a hole.

All these ridge runners and caretakers should be teaching hikers how to get off the trail and into the woods to camp and crap.

TexasBob
01-31-2016, 19:35
............................All these ridge runners and caretakers should be teaching hikers how to get off the trail and into the woods to camp and crap.

"Hey John, what did you do this summer?"
"Well Fred, I was a camp and crap coach on the Appalachian Trail"
"Uhh John, leave that off your resume."

WingedMonkey
01-31-2016, 20:50
"Hey John, what did you do this summer?"
"Well Fred, I was a camp and crap coach on the Appalachian Trail"
"Uhh John, leave that off your resume."

I come from a long line of poachers, moonshiners, and hunters.

Leave no trace was taught as a way of not getting caught.

It amazes me how many wanna be thru-hikers don't know how to walk off into the woods off the trail (where it is allowed) and not leave a trace.

It amazes me even more that is is worse 20 years after my own first thru-hike.

Yes if the GATC is going to man the trail 24 hours a day during the "bubble" they need to tech how to camp and crap off the trail.

It anyone at the Forrest Service or ATC thinks all of this new crop of hikers in Georgia is going to hike an extra 3/4 of a mile to tent or crap (mile and half round trip) they need to get out more. Most won't 3/4 mile to get a pizza if they can call it in.

NewHeart
02-01-2016, 00:03
I come from a long line of poachers, moonshiners, and hunters.

Leave no trace was taught as a way of not getting caught.

It amazes me how many wanna be thru-hikers don't know how to walk off into the woods off the trail (where it is allowed) and not leave a trace.

It amazes me even more that is is worse 20 years after my own first thru-hike.

Yes if the GATC is going to man the trail 24 hours a day during the "bubble" they need to tech how to camp and crap off the trail.

It anyone at the Forrest Service or ATC thinks all of this new crop of hikers in Georgia is going to hike an extra 3/4 of a mile to tent or crap (mile and half round trip) they need to get out more. Most won't 3/4 mile to get a pizza if they can call it in.
I too am quite at home in the woods. I spent 40+ years hiking, camping, and hunting in the woods of Wisc. and Minn. I know how to get off the trail, but that said, I am a first timer on the AT and didn't know what the rules were as to that. I heard stealth camping was frowned upon and one need to camp at designated spots. So I asked, better safe then sorry.

WingedMonkey
02-01-2016, 00:54
I too am quite at home in the woods. I spent 40+ years hiking, camping, and hunting in the woods of Wisc. and Minn. I know how to get off the trail, but that said, I am a first timer on the AT and didn't know what the rules were as to that. I heard stealth camping was frowned upon and one need to camp at designated spots. So I asked, better safe then sorry.

Didn't mean to imply that you are afraid of the woods, my first reply was an answer to what if the shelter is closed.

You won't have a problem finding an animal trail or old fire break or abandoned woods road to get off and camp/hang.

On National Forests the rules are much kinder than else where, and it's not necessary to break any laws to "stealth camp"

The rant was about the folks that need to be taught that it's OK, and the GATC should be encouraging more of it.

WingedMonkey
02-01-2016, 01:02
Chattahoochee-Oconee National Forests (http://fs.usda.gov/conf)


Dispersed (primitive) camping—Dispersed camping is available in multiple locations throughout the forest, and is intended to provide a rustic, less manicured and natural experience. Whether you decide to camp within a Congressionally-designated Wilderness or the general forest area, we ask that you follow the principles of Leave No Trace. By leaving no trace you are reducing your impact to the natural environment and preserving the quality of experience for future visitors. Basic Leave No Trace principles include the following:



Secure all food and keep safe from bears.
Do not feed wild animals.
Do not leave campfires unattended.
Be sure to completely put out any campfire before leaving your site unattended.

1234
02-01-2016, 11:35
Remember Hawk Mt shelter is day 1 or day 2 for the majority of thru hikers. From my own experience bubble season is 50% spring breakers or curious folks watching the thru's start. They all look at a guide book and set there goal for the day to be Hawk Mt shelter. Only when they get there it looks like a campground, tents everywhere. So, being normal they follow the crowd, and find a bald spot and set up there tent. After years of use and during bubble season the area all around Hawk shelter has become bald, a series of dirt spots all over. It is these dirt spots that are the objection. The leave no trace is to not camp in a dirt spot. Think newbys, where to camp, day 1 and 2 and the first week the places are limited, LOOK IN THE guide books, where does it say if Hawk is full go 300 yds turn left at low spot and walk 150 yards to a spring and camp spot. It doesn't, Most folks are just following the guide book that exist. Yes every flat spot in Georgia has a camp spot with a big rock fire ring, and folks continue to camp in these spots. What is the solution to 100 people starting on the same day? The campground trail is 3/4 of a mile long WITH Campsites ALL along the way, not just at the end. This is an entirely new approach to solving a over use issue. Will it work? If it is in the guide books it has a chance. The AT is not to be a series of campsites ON THE trail, but off the trail. The leave no trace part of this it the flat ground under a tent that gets over used creating bald spots.

hikehunter
02-02-2016, 23:46
Many hiker drop out at Neel Gap.....then more @ Hiawassee.
The closer a shelter is to a road the trashyer they tend to be.....all those weekend party warriors. I have see it on other trails. I think the litter laws need to be enforced and the Judge needs to hit them with the max. fine. It starts to happen a bit and the word will get out

"pick up your trash, if you get busted you will be poorer for it, the cops and rangers come by here all the time"

If you start to here that and see stories in the news it could do some good. Maybe Here is hoping.

JaketheFake
02-03-2016, 08:41
I come from a long line of poachers, moonshiners, and hunters.

Leave no trace was taught as a way of not getting caught.

It amazes me how many wanna be thru-hikers don't know how to walk off into the woods off the trail (where it is allowed) and not leave a trace.

It amazes me even more that is is worse 20 years after my own first thru-hike.

Yes if the GATC is going to man the trail 24 hours a day during the "bubble" they need to tech how to camp and crap off the trail.

It anyone at the Forrest Service or ATC thinks all of this new crop of hikers in Georgia is going to hike an extra 3/4 of a mile to tent or crap (mile and half round trip) they need to get out more. Most won't 3/4 mile to get a pizza if they can call it in.

What amazes me is that you would start your post by attempting to build credibility by stating your lineage consists of a bunch of scoundrels? But at least you made the distinction between poacher and hunters.

Gambit McCrae
02-03-2016, 09:01
Many hiker drop out at Neel Gap.....then more @ Hiawassee.
The closer a shelter is to a road the trashyer they tend to be.....all those weekend party warriors. I have see it on other trails. I think the litter laws need to be enforced and the Judge needs to hit them with the max. fine. It starts to happen a bit and the word will get out

"pick up your trash, if you get busted you will be poorer for it, the cops and rangers come by here all the time"

If you start to here that and see stories in the news it could do some good. Maybe Here is hoping.

I can see head lines now! "Broke Hiker gets fined for throwing spam can in fire pit by police stakeout on the Appalachian Trail"....I don't think so lol

MuddyWaters
02-03-2016, 09:19
Remember Hawk Mt shelter is day 1 or day 2 for the majority of thru hikers. From my own experience bubble season is 50% spring breakers or curious folks watching the thru's start. They all look at a guide book and set there goal for the day to be Hawk Mt shelter. Only when they get there it looks like a campground, tents everywhere. So, being normal they follow the crowd, and find a bald spot and set up there tent. After years of use and during bubble season the area all around Hawk shelter has become bald, a series of dirt spots all over. It is these dirt spots that are the objection. The leave no trace is to not camp in a dirt spot. Think newbys, where to camp, day 1 and 2 and the first week the places are limited, LOOK IN THE guide books, where does it say if Hawk is full go 300 yds turn left at low spot and walk 150 yards to a spring and camp spot. It doesn't, Most folks are just following the guide book that exist. Yes every flat spot in Georgia has a camp spot with a big rock fire ring, and folks continue to camp in these spots. What is the solution to 100 people starting on the same day? The campground trail is 3/4 of a mile long WITH Campsites ALL along the way, not just at the end. This is an entirely new approach to solving a over use issue. Will it work? If it is in the guide books it has a chance. The AT is not to be a series of campsites ON THE trail, but off the trail. The leave no trace part of this it the flat ground under a tent that gets over used creating bald spots.

Neither shelters nor tent pads or established campsites are LNT. They are concentrated impact, sacrificed areas which protect others areas from use. LNT doesnt apply to these areas.

Heres what matters, unless it has the only water around, or pizza, few will walk 0.5 miles off trail for a campsite when they can camp just off trail. 0.5 is for the most part the upper limit that people will go off trail for a shelter as well. If they move the shelter, new site will be successful, if they dont, I doubt it.

WingedMonkey
02-03-2016, 12:18
What amazes me is that you would start your post by attempting to build credibility by stating your lineage consists of a bunch of scoundrels? But at least you made the distinction between poacher and hunters.

I know my lineage back to the Revolution (or before).

A lot of lawyers and preachers and politicians and other scoundrels mixed in with the bunch.

Not all hunters are poachers, never met a poacher that didn't call himself a hunter.

:sun

bemental
02-03-2016, 12:46
Guthooks's app has the HMS campsite as opening for the 2016 season, and as such has placed the on the map.

Found that interesting.

George
02-03-2016, 15:29
I think the litter laws need to be enforced and the Judge needs to hit them with the max. fine. It starts to happen a bit and the word will get out

"pick up your trash, if you get busted you will be poorer for it, the cops and rangers come by here all the time"

If you start to here that and see stories in the news it could do some good.

what kind of a bleeding heart liberal are you? - why are you so soft on these hardened criminals ?

- this obviously needs marshal law and summary executions - photos/ news stories of the beheadings, impalements, and hangings, would be a good beginning

FatMan
02-16-2016, 23:07
I was talking to one of the GATC coordinators today and here's the scoop. Hawk Mtn shelter will remain open this season. They have hired two additional ridge runners and one will be stationed at Hawk Mtn shelter. Once the shelter area is full the ridge runner will move to the trail junction for the new tent pads and direct hikers to the new sites.

The other ridge runner will be stationed at Black Gap shelter on the approach trail. With trail runners at these two shelters plus the traditionally located ridge runner at Springer it gives the GATC good coverage early on in providing LNT guidance to the herd.

FatMan
02-16-2016, 23:08
oops. "trail runners" = "ridge runners" above

shelb
02-16-2016, 23:55
. It enables rotten hikers to continue on a higher mental note and is a trash magnet/ bear magnet. I hiked GA sobo last year during the spring and was disgusted at the amount of not only trash, but gear as well. Thermorests, dry bags, stoves and canisters.
.

This is so sad! Hikers really need to be trained in LNT.
Trail Maintainers - and Hikers who know about LNT - thank you for your work to clean up and educate these children of the trail.

Venchka
02-17-2016, 00:07
This is so sad! Hikers really need to be trained in LNT.
Trail Maintainers - and Hikers who know about LNT - thank you for your work to clean up and educate these children of the trail.

Seems to me that many of them are barely potty trained. Training? LNT? Right Sure.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

MuddyWaters
02-17-2016, 00:47
Seems to me that many of them are barely potty trained. Training? LNT? Right Sure.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

That is the function of the Ridge Runners, to inform hikers how to be LNT, in a friendly supportive and non-confrontational manner.

Do it work?

Well, NC is cleaner than GA, so maybe. A little.

To hell with LNT, staying at a shelter has nothing to do with LNT. Just pack out your fricking trash, dont leave crap behind, and dont write on things with a $%^&*# sharpie.

DSettahr
02-17-2016, 15:57
Neither shelters nor tent pads or established campsites are LNT. They are concentrated impact, sacrificed areas which protect others areas from use. LNT doesnt apply to these areas.

This really isn't true. LNT is very explicit in that concentration of use at established campsites is very much in keeping with the overall philosophy of minimizing impact in the backcountry.

From the LNT Website (https://lnt.org/learn/7-principles):




In popular areas:

Concentrate use on existing trails and campsites.
Walk single file in the middle of the trail, even when wet or muddy.
Keep campsites small. Focus activity in areas where vegetation is absent.


In pristine areas:

Disperse use to prevent the creation of campsites and trails.
Avoid places where impacts are just beginning.




So concentration of use can be in accordance with the LNT principles, depending on the context.