View Full Version : Do you know of any fines being paid?
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 11:58
I usually hammock, but I know there are places in some states and locations where it is strictly illegal to spend the night along the trail.
I'm concerned, now that I am elderly and foolish, that at the end of the day, physically spent and mentally spent and foolish that I might end up camping illegally in my hammock. Leave no trace of course but not obeying the law. Does anyone here have any experience personally or know of someone who has had to pay the fine? And if so, how much was it? Thank you for any help on this.
ChefATLTCT
01-21-2016, 12:10
I was fined in the smokies last March for possession of less than a quarter ounce of marijuana. 250 bucks, that was an expensive joint.
Sarcasm the elf
01-21-2016, 12:12
The NY and NJ sections immediately come to mind, both these states have specific rules and the trail is patroled; especially around Delaware Water Gap Recreation area and around Bear Mountain/Harriman park.
Sarcasm the elf
01-21-2016, 12:13
Best advice I can give is to start early each day and an your miles so you can get to a legal spot by midday.
4eyedbuzzard
01-21-2016, 12:24
I was fined in the smokies last March for possession of less than a quarter ounce of marijuana. 250 bucks, that was an expensive joint.FWIW, I think the OP is concerned about fines for making camp in a prohibited area. They didn't inquire about illegal drug possession on federal land.
I believe Maryland at one time had a prohibition on hammocks in State Parks, but i think it was rescinded. That or they were enforcing it more regarding hammocks in heavily used day-use recreation area. The most restrictive camping rules are in GSMNP http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm and http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-camping.htm and http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/bc-things2know.htm and https://smokiespermits.nps.gov/index.cfm?BCPermitTypeID=2 and in the White Mountains Nat. Forest in NH http://www.fs.usda.gov/activity/whitemountain/recreation/camping-cabins/?recid=74405&actid=34 and http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5363715.pdf There are other areas that have restrictions too, such as in NJ, and Baxter State Park, etc. If you have AWOL's Guide or the ALDHA Companion, I believe these guides offer info on these and other areas.
Eons ago I was flushed out of a not-very-stealthy site near Madison hut. The ranger was pretty nice about it. We could pack up and leave -- head for the hut -- or stay, and pay the fine. Plus, he reminded us, if we stay, it's a federal crime. We complained about the cost of the hut, said we had no cash. That's OK, he told us, they'll take an IOU.
In my years on the AT that's the only close encounter I've had with law enforcement on the trail. Not counting the off-duty or retired cops I've met on the trail and around the campfire.
swisscross
01-21-2016, 12:39
I was fined in the smokies last March for possession of less than a quarter ounce of marijuana. 250 bucks, that was an expensive joint.
250 is cheap. Get caught in Alabama you would have been going to jail.....then lawyer fees. You got off in my book.
Casey & Gina
01-21-2016, 12:49
Camping outside of designated campsites is illegal in Maryland. I didn't realize that until after camping in anything but perhaps a dozen times. Not advocating violating the law but I think that if you are respectful and tidy and not making campfires, more often than not you'll be offered respect in return. I can tell you that if my body is giving out or weather conditions turn particularly sour or I am feeling really sick, I am going to strike camp as soon as I find a good spot, without regard for whether it's allowed. Of course, that is a decision made with the knowledge that I may be fined, but sometimes I think that is an acceptable tradeoff for avoiding significant risk. Sometimes I hear things like "they will let thru hikers get away with it", but that should never be expected or abused - the rules apply to all equally.
In short, obey the rules to the best of your knowledge and abilty. Don't break the rules without accepting and being prepared for possible repurcussions. Be as respectful and careful as you can reasonably be, and if you suffer a consequence of your decision, accept responsibility and don't complain.
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 12:56
Thank you for the advice so far. Yes, after listening to RoboCop, I am only concerned about what I would have to pay if I were caught being such a criminal and "in trouble." I would not carry any weed or my pistol on an AT hike. And my camo hammock and tarp are quite invisible with enough brush around at fairly close distances, so avoiding patrols is not something I would deliberately do -- I obey all laws when I can -- but being old and tired and foolish as I said, and not being able to hike any further, I'd be physically forced to stealth setup off the trail a distance. Under duress as it were.
But if I were apprehended and forced to "pay my debt to society," I am wondering what the monetary price would actually turn out to be?
Reporter: Robo, excuse me, Robo. Any special message for all the kids watching at home?
RoboCop (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000693/?ref_=tt_trv_qu): Stay out of trouble.
I was fined in the smokies last March for possession of less than a quarter ounce of marijuana. 250 bucks, that was an expensive joint.
How did they know you had that? Did you give it up? Or were you too close to the trail?
I hiked the entire smokies two years ago without a permit and never even was asked once by either a ranger or runner.
Studlintsean
01-21-2016, 14:26
My brothers friend was cited for hanging in his hammock above a not so obvious vegetation rehabilitation area at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP a few years ago. Not sure what the fine was but if you do it, expect to pay the fine if caught.
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 14:51
My brothers friend was cited for hanging in his hammock above a not so obvious vegetation rehabilitation area at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP a few years ago. Not sure what the fine was but if you do it, expect to pay the fine if caught.
Yes, that is my original question. I do expect to pay a fine if caught. And perhaps more than once by the end, if I do decide to thru hike. What I need to know, being on a limited income and planning tjos hike and costing things out, is what these fines have been in the recent past. That's my only question. Thanks.
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 14:53
My brothers friend was cited for hanging in his hammock above a not so obvious vegetation rehabilitation area at Gravel Springs Hut in SNP a few years ago. Not sure what the fine was but if you do it, expect to pay the fine if caught.
Yes, that is my original question. I do expect to pay a fine if caught. And perhaps more than once by the end, if I do decide to thru hike. What I need to know, being on a limited income and planning this hike and costing things out so I don't run out of money, is what these fines have been for people in the recent past. That's my only question. Thanks.
In the Smokies.... you have to use the backcountry shelter except for one site about 6miles from Fontana Dam.
However.... if the shelter is full when you get to it.... you can camp around it however you want.
Bears do tend to frequent the shelter areas though in the Smokies.
nsherry61
01-21-2016, 15:09
Years ago my climbing buddies and I used to regularly play cat and mouse with rangers. The trick was to hike until dark and break camp at sunrise. We never encountered any rangers that "ranged" after dark or before sunrise. And frankly, I think most of them really didn't want to catch us as long as we didn't cause problems or be present when they were there and obligated to follow through on ticketing us.
slbirdnerd
01-21-2016, 15:13
Grab a copy of The AT Guide or other trail book and it should help you be able to plan better where to camp, what the rules are, etc. The AT Guide is also available loose leaf so you can carry small sections at a time, and as a PDF for on your smart phone if you have one. Happy trails!
gpburdelljr
01-21-2016, 16:04
It is one thing to have to camp in an illegal spot because of sickness or injury, but if you are so old that you can't physically hike the short distances between legal camping spots, maybe it's time to quit hiking.
What is camping? Is taking a nap in the middle of the day prohibited? What if you night hike and sleep during the day? If you hike from Fontana Dam to Newfound gap in one day, stay in Gatlinburg overnight and then do Newfound to Davenport gap the next day, do you still need a permit?
What is camping? Is taking a nap in the middle of the day prohibited? What if you night hike and sleep during the day? If you hike from Fontana Dam to Newfound gap in one day, stay in Gatlinburg overnight and then do Newfound to Davenport gap the next day, do you still need a permit?
I think not. The permits are for camping, not for traveling thru the park. If you can hike GSMNP in two days, go for it.
Is taking a nap in the middle of the day prohibited?
not necessarily.......
but a ranger may/will ask for your permit if you are in a shelter sleeping during the day...................i know this because it happened to me...............but i had permit, so i wasnt worried but rather pissed that he woke me up.................
and yeah, if you can hike the GSMNP stretch in two days staying in gatlinburg for the night------go for it................if a ranger passes you on the trail, they may still ask you for a permit since more than likely a thru hiker will have a bigger pack than the average dayhiker...................
Casey & Gina
01-21-2016, 16:34
It is one thing to have to camp in an illegal spot because of sickness or injury, but if you are so old that you can't physically hike the short distances between legal camping spots, maybe it's time to quit hiking.
I think that's a pretty demeaning comment. Many people may have difficulty reaching an intended destination in their first couple weeks on the trail regardless of age - the solution is more time on the trail building up strength and stamina, adjusting daily goals to be more realistic and stopping at a nearer shelter/campsite rather than trying for a farther one that you're not certain about reaching - not to quit. Many older hikers successfully hike the trail and tend to be more responsible than some of the younger and stronger crowd. There are many other variables such as pack weight, body weight, mental fortitude when conditions are suboptimal, etc. that are independent of age. Whomever has will to hike should feel welcome and free to hike.
I met my first AT thru hikers in 2004 in SNP. I was picking berries at a group camp area just off Skyline drive. They setup their shelters and a Ranger rolled in. They were both cited. Having said that, they were in a very conspicuous area. If I ever had to stealth camp in an area where legality was in question, I would not be found. My arrival would be after dark and departure before light, no fires, no "making a campsite" and it would be a ways off the trail. When I left, no one would know I was ever there, maybe I wasn't!
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 16:42
Years ago my climbing buddies and I used to regularly play cat and mouse with rangers. The trick was to hike until dark and break camp at sunrise. We never encountered any rangers that "ranged" after dark or before sunrise. And frankly, I think most of them really didn't want to catch us as long as we didn't cause problems or be present when they were there and obligated to follow through on ticketing us.
Thank you. This is a tried and true method, and eases my concern. Many years ago, I would do this when traveling on a motorcycle with a friend. Pulled it off-road into the brush or woods, laid it down carefully, just after sunset, when no traffic was within range. Set up a small tent further in or on the beach that wouldn't be seen from any houses or roads, and moved out at very first light. That was key.
Did the same thing once in high school with a different friend on his motorcycle on govt. land next to a popular beach, in a bird sanctuary that was constantly night-patroled by a jeep with a jacklighting light they swept over the dunes. This was in August hot weather, t-shirts and shorts, we slept on big beach towels. Didn't sleep much because of all the mosquitoes eating us. But we had nowhere else to go. Got out when we could barely see in the morning, and soon saw that we were covered with hundreds of purple-circle mosquito bites. Distinct colorful dots. Didn't get sick but we looked like we had some terrible disease. And couldn't find any young women to put us up or sneak us into their garage for the next night, as we typically did on such trips. So we rode all the way back home. Fun to laugh at it now, but not then. DEET works much of the time but when there are hundreds, huge constant swarms of skeeters, such as happened on that beach or to me once in Algonquin Park with not netting, and you are their only lunch source, there are always some who bite anyway. Today I do use DEET but also permethrin treated clothes and a headnet at the ready.
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 16:48
It is one thing to have to camp in an illegal spot because of sickness or injury, but if you are so old that you can't physically hike the short distances between legal camping spots, maybe it's time to quit hiking.
No, not so old I can't physically hike such short distances, but I do suddenly "bonk" sometimes. Sickness or injury? --I like that. Someone else elsewhere suggested having used such "planned spontaneity" with the details, on the AT, but no need to reveal them here.
gpburdelljr
01-21-2016, 18:15
No, not so old I can't physically hike such short distances, but I do suddenly "bonk" sometimes. Sickness or injury? --I like that. Someone else elsewhere suggested having used such "planned spontaneity" with the details, on the AT, but no need to reveal them here.
My age, plus injuries, no longer allow me to hike the distances required on the AT. Rather than determining if I can afford the fines so I can camp illegally, using my age and infirmities as an excuse, I have adjusted my lifestyle. There are plenty of opportunities to hike short distances and camp legally in remote areas.
LittleJimmy
01-21-2016, 21:19
My age, plus injuries, no longer allow me to hike the distances required on the AT. Rather than determining if I can afford the fines so I can camp illegally, using my age and infirmities as an excuse, I have adjusted my lifestyle. There are plenty of opportunities to hike short distances and camp legally in remote areas.
Sorry to hear of your injuries and successful adjustment to keep camping and hiking. Glad it's working out for you. Very admirable.
As for myself, I have no intention of camping illegally, and don't plan nor hope to. At least some if not most of the rules are there for good reasons. But after reading about so many different state regulations and sections' rules, including the possibility of somewhere along the trail being charged with a "federal crime," with that last one I think "Huh? What the...? What country am I in?" I'm not a terrorist or bank robber, just wondering about natural contingencies that arise in any trip. Having never hiked a trail that long with so many different regulations along the length, while planning I simply decided to ask what would happen if I did "get a flat tire," i.e., if I could not make it to the next shelter or legal area before dark. I've seen that on the dozens of youtube AT videos I've watched. A silly recommendation is to say "Don't get a flat tire." Equipment repairs, ugly storms, and other real happenings do upset the best of daily plans on the trail, as I've seen, even among the young and fittest.
In between a simple warning ticket and a federal crime, there's the matter of a fine if I do "get a flat tire," so to speak. I am sure it has happened on occasion to many and not only us older folks. And I have no problem if it should happen unexpectedly to me in using an excuse rather than pay a fine.
After all this thread's views, and no one mentioning jail or knowledge of an actual fine for camping outside the legal areas that we should all try to respect, I now suspect fines to be rare for such flat tires. Or at least no jail and no fine of significance.
Thanks for everyone's help and advice.
YES, absolutely, I've seen people fined for illegal camping and other illegalities on the AT and elsewhere, in some places more than others. Whether one is fined or not it still reflects poorly on the rest of the hiking /outdoors community when individually we behave illegally. It's not just about you.
YES, absolutely, I've seen people fined for illegal camping and other illegalities on the AT and elsewhere, in some places more than others. Whether one is fined or not it still reflects poorly on the rest of the hiking /outdoors community when individually we behave illegally. It's not just about you.
Where do you hike? Outside of the National Parks and a very few special areas, Rangers on the AT in the backcountry are about as rare as a Three Toed Woopecker.
The appendix to this document gives a rather good overview of areas with camping restrictions (mostly correct).
http://www.nps.gov/appa/learn/management/upload/APPA_compendium_2002.pdf
The OP could find it worth a look given his concerns.
Edit-- actually that isn't the best chart. I have a PDF of one that looks similar but with more detail. I will try and find a link
It is not just the NPs or NP Rangers that can cite illegal camping or require one to break camp and move on or have the LEOs called.
It is not just the NPs or NP Rangers that can cite illegal camping or require one to break camp and move on or have the LEOs called.
Just not many out there. This poll proves it :): https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/28731-Rangers-on-the-Trail
Whether one is fined or not it still reflects poorly on the rest of the hiking /outdoors community when individually we behave illegally. It's not just about you.
there it is.....
the best advice in this thread.....
Slo-go'en
01-22-2016, 00:07
No camping regulations are in place for a reason. To ignore them is both illegal and morally irresponsible. To be physically injured and can't go any farther without assistance is one thing, but to knowingly illegally camp because of poor planning or knowingly being physically incapable to get to a legal spot is quite another and is inexcusable behavior. Unfortunately, "the rules don't apply to me" seems to be an increasingly common attitude amongst AT hikers in recent years. And it's not just young people.
Alligator
01-22-2016, 01:54
Please don't initiate threads like these. Closed per #4 of the user agreement.
Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts, or involving the use, production and/or distribution of illegal drugs are forbidden.