Winter storm Jonas

[Casey & Gina]

Anybody else get out in this?

I headed to REI after work on Thursday to pick up Snowshoes. I arrived to find only two pairs of MSR Lightning Ascent Women's 22" shoes left on the shelf - the rest was cleared out. I bought one of them and called another REI about 45 minutes away, which had a Men's 25" pair and a single set of tails remaining in stock, to hold them for me. When I arrived there, I asked an employee where the snowshoes were thinking I'd see what else they had, and he said they were completely sold out of everything. So I got the ones I'd reserved and counted my blessings.

With all the winter gear including snowshoes (and frankly, some stuff I really didn't need for this trip), my pack weighed in at 75 pounds. Oof.

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We headed out midday Friday and got our Hilleberg Keron 3 pitched on a ridge above Rocky Run shelters just as snow started:

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Due to the weather, we opted to roll up the footprint floor in one of the vestibules and use it for cooking with our alcohol stove. The other vestibule held our packs and spare gear. Although it's an extra pound for this tent, I really like having the footprint to protect the main tent floor and add a floor under the vestibules when desired.

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Shook off the tent several times before going to sleep for the night, but woke up to a LOT of snow, pressing in rather a lot on the sides and down on the top as well. Thermometer read just below 20 degrees:

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This is what I discovered when I dug my way out of the tent and snowshoed a path around:

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Fortunately, the tent held up perfectly to the strain. Took rather a long while to dig it out with a snowshoe, but eventually, our tent emerged:

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The snow kept coming. Re-excavated the tent Saturday night before sleep, resulting in a pile of snow higher than the tent:

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Found out later we got about 30 inches of snow. Broke camp Sunday morning, the thermometer reading 10 degrees:

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Snowshoeing through that deep of snow, with as much weight as we had, was very hard work. Took breaks to warm toes and rest 3 times per mile by stomping down a circle of snow in our path. Fortunately we only had about 3 miles to go, but when we hid a road halfway, we opted to roadwalk the rest of the way back to the car, though it doubled the distance. A good choice as we were able to make good time and our toes stayed warm rather than continually refreezing from snow exposure with every step:

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Got back to find our car deeply lodged in a parking lot. The business near the trail is apparently closed and won't be plowing so it's stuck there for a while. Got a ride back to our garage in Frederick where I had another car ready to go. Unfortunately, the neighbor hadn't cleared any of the shared driveway and his car was stuck in it, so no rest for the weary:

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Finally finished clearing the driveway this morning, so back to work tomorrow...

[Casey & Gina]

Ugh, apparently pictures don't stay rotated correctly when attached here. I'll see if I can upload them to photobucket and edit the above post tomorrow when I get to a computer...

EDIT: Photos have been re-uploaded from computer and now have correct orientation.

[Kaptainkriz]

That looks like a bunch of fun! Is that the ridge above the old shelter?

[Casey & Gina]

That looks like a bunch of fun! Is that the ridge above the old shelter?

Yes, well it is above/between both of them... I am not one for shelters but with this much snow I wanted to have one nearby just in case.

[saltysack]

That looks like fun! I'm jealous!


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[Venchka]

That looks like fun! I'm jealous!


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My sentiments exactly!
In the right place at the right time, a Hilleberg seems like the logical choice.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[rocketsocks]

Very nice C&G...and Coyote??? Thanks for those pics, you've a beautiful family.

[Casey & Gina]

As with many of my recent trips, this was intended to test out my gear and see what works out as well as I'd hoped and what I still need to add or replace. My ultimate goal is to have "ideal" gear for all conditions, that I can select from based on the conditions expected.

What worked well for this trip:
* Packs (Kelty Super Tioga & Deuter Kid Comfort III) - The Kelty continues to impress me, especially as I added two more large CCF pads for this trip and snowshoes. In addition I lashed two umbrellas to the frame, the tent on top, and had the pack pretty well filled up as well, though it could have held more. It was significantly more comfortable to carry 75lbs with this pack than it was to carry the same weight with the Deuter ACT Lite 65+10. I think the Deuter AirContact Pro 75+15 would probably work better but I have no idea how I'd lash on the 4 large CCF pads effectively and since the Kelty is working out so well, I've lost interest in trying and will probably just return that pack. My wife remains happy with the Deuter Kid Comfort III, although I am tempted to try out a Kelty Pathfinder 3.0 since I've enjoyed the Super Tioga so much. The biggest concern however is that it does not offer a complete rain cover, so we'd have to fabricate one on our own.
* Tent (Hilleberg Keron 3). Fantastic performance when dealt a great deal of snow weight. I once considered vestibules to be an unnecessary luxury, but during this trip having at least one seemed a must, and being able to stow all our spare gear including snowshoes when not in use, while retaining the other for entry/exit and cooking was a big advantage, especially as both of our packs have frames which makes them significantly bulky. The cheery yellow inner tent was very nice for spending a great deal of time in during unrelenting snow, and the pockets and guyline down the top center to hang things from worked out very well. I did however discover that when the temperature is significantly below freezing, having the solid portions of the inner tent doors open but completely covered by the mesh portions of the doors is insufficient - condensation freezes in the mesh and makes the entire upper half of the doors solid so air cannot pass, then condensation builds up on the inside. Best is to leave the doors unzipped for a few inches at the top to keep this from happening with good airflow. Likewise the outer tent vents work best when opened completely. I think the mesh is really only useful in warmer weather when bugs are a problem. The outer tent vents are pretty high up on the tent but were nearly compromised by this amount of snow It's definitely something to be conscious about, as you wouldn't want both to be covered by snow and not have any air circulation. However, escaping warm air from the tent seems to help mitigate this risk, and I can't think of any vent setup on any tent that I've seen which would have fared better. Also, although I took the pictures before figuring this out, the quick-tightening straps located at each of the two corners of each vestibule and the three along one side where the poles insert worked great for cinching up the tent after it was sagging a bit. At ten pounds with the footprint, it's not an ideal tent for long-distance hiking, but is a clear winner for winter use, and I am glad to have the flagship Hilleberg model for this purpose. I would be scared to be in much of any snow with our ultralight Big Agnes tent, and I don't want to feel forced into a shelter, so for a thru hike I am thinking about getting a lighter Hilleberg model that can deal with whatever is likely to hit us outside of actual winter without weighing as much.
* Tent Stakes (Vargo Titanium Nail Pegs) - These looked equivalent to the Hilleberg Stinger Titanium pegs (same weight and size), but cost only $81 versus $165 for the Hilleberg stakes. They worked very well in the hard and rocky soil, although I did manage to bend one that was being difficult (easily straightened with a hammer once I got home, could have been field-repaired with a rock). I generally like the Toaks Titanium V-pegs for softer/warmer ground conditions but for hard and rocky ground like this, the nail pegs are unbeatable.
* Sleeping Bag (Feathered Friends Condor 0 w/4oz overfill) - Kept us pretty warm when wearing our wool baselayer, and had an abundance of space.
* Sleeping Pads (2x RidgeRest Solar & 2x RidgeRest Classic, Large size - With these four sleeping pads beneath us and kept in place by the Condor groundsheet, we were well insulated from the frozen ground below from head to toe. This was a noticeable improvement from our last winter outing where we used short pads for the second layer which only provided partial underbody coverage.
* Base Layers - Leggings, Shirts, Underwear, Balaclavas (Icebreaker Apex 260gsm) - Fantastic base layer, good from just a little chilly down to very cold temperatures. For cold temperatures like this, another wool mid-layer would be ideal to add though. This is all we wore while sleeping.
* Rain Gear (Outdoor Research Helium II jackets & Revel mitts) - okay, so it didn't rain, but the snow was a problem if not kept out. Our jackets and mitts worked fantastic to keep moisture out. Did a fair bit of snow moving using the mitts and they worked great.
* Baby's Garments (Nuno Organic Wool Footie and North Face Lil' Snuggler snowsuit) - both are great garments and kept the baby warm the entire trip.
* Snowshoes (MSR Lightning Ascent) - I don't have any other snowshoe experience to compare to, but these worked out pretty well. They did sink down a good bit, but I think they did as well as could be expected in 30" of fresh powdery snow. I would like to get another set of tails and will probably exchange my wife's 22" pair for a 25" pair as she had a bit more difficulty than me (I used a 25" pair, she used 22" with the tails). I used them a little bit a day later around town where snow was still not clear but was somewhat more packed down by warmer temperatures, and they worked a lot better and did not sink down so much, so I think they are pretty ideal overall. Snowshoes were an absolute must for this trip, in case it's not obvious.
* Cookware & Stove (Toaks Siphon Alcohol Stove, Wood Stove, 450ml cup & lid, 1100ml pot & lid, 1600ml pot w/bail & pan/lid) - We actually gathered a bunch of firewood including smaller stuff that could have fueled our wood stove, however I wasn't feeling inclined to try burning wood inside the tent, so it got left outside. We never did actually start a fire. Our Toaks Siphon alcohol stove worked great though, although with the cold temperature the alcohol would not light directly from a lighter - I had to light a leaf or twig and then dip that into the fuel instead. Using this inside a part of our wood stove as a potholder worked great. We cooked in our 1100ml and 1600ml pots, as well as heated some water in the 450ml cup once or twice. The 1600ml pot is the most efficient since it spreads the heat across a wider bottom. I like that it has a bail handle for use over an open campfire although that was not useful this trip. The pan that doubles as a lid for the 1600ml pot works better than the flat lid, both because you can use it as a pan (which we did), and because when using it as a lid, you have an bigger handle that is easier to handle. We ate very well on this trip with some fresh vegetables in addition to the usual dry fare, and made a lot of tea. As such we burned though about 3/4 of the alcohol we took which normally would be enough for a week or more, but as we were inside the tent a lot, we cooked a lot. Plus things like fresh potatoes take a while to fry completely after slicing. I definitely intend to, when thru-hiking, on leaving every resupply point with a bunch of extra alcohol and fresh vegetables. The extra weight will be used up fast enough, and the lighter dry foods can be reserved for later down the trail.
* Trekking Poles (Black Diamond Alpine Carbon Z) - I recently upgraded to these from Black Diamond Alpine Carbon Cork poles, and really prefer them. We got another set for my wife just before this trip. The simplicity of these fixed-length poles is great, with no concern about tightening or loosing the flicklocks to ensure they hold tight enough without becoming difficult to use. It seems we always needed to make little tweaks to the screw adjustments on the Alpine Carbon Cork poles, and it was difficult to find a balance point where the locks were easy enough to use but wouldn't slip when pressed down forcefully. When snowshoeing through this much snow with heavy packs, Alpine Carbon Z poles added an undeniable feeling of security when needed. They also collapse small enough to fit horizontally in my pack, or otherwise be stowed in a lot less space, which was definitely appreciable. The winter baskets were not effective in the powdery snow though, and would sink all the way to the ground pretty easily, but that's not a problem specific to these poles. Usually, just for balance, the poles did not need to be sunk in too deep to the snow.
* Down hats (UCQ Down Skullies) - when more warmth than the balaclavas was needed, these down hats worked great. Our jackets do not have any hoods and this was sufficient for keeping our heads warm in conjunction with the wool balaclavas.
* GPS gear (iPod Touch 6th Generation, Dual Electronics XGPS150A, Guthook's AT Hiker app, CoPilot GPS app) - at times, the trail was a bit hard to locate on the way back in the deep snow. We always managed okay, but I was definitely happy to have a GPS and the AT Hiker app in my pack, so that I could have found my way back to the trail easily without backtracking if gone astray. The CoPilot app with it's offline maps proved useful when we reached a small but plowed road halfway back and decided to see if there was a way to roadwalk back to the car rather than snowshoeing another mile or so. The iPod also took all the pictures above.
* Lighting (Ultimate Survival Technologies Brila Mini Lantern, Black Diamond Storm headlamps) - we use the lantern in our tent as it is a lot nicer than using headlamps as it lights up the whole tent interior, and allows us to conserve our headlamp batteries. The Storm headlamps are great when we needed to venture out after dark. We could have gotten by with just one rather than two headlamps for this trip, though.

What did not work out well:
* Footwear (Timberland boots) - Thank goodness we did not try to do this trip using our Vibram FiveFingers, which I assumed would be a bad idea in snow. Instead we used some Timberlands we had lying around (not purchased for hiking), and still had wet feet and freezing toes wearing these. I am now convinced that for winter backpacking, good waterproofed boots are a must. I am inclined to follow Tipi Walter's lead here and will likely order Zamberlans for us. I think some gaiters would also be helpful to keep snowmelt from getting into the boots. I love the feeling of hiking in FiveFingers when the ground is not snowy, and they are so light they can be carried easily to use around camp even if boots are used.
* Socks (Injinji Outdoor 2.0) - The toe separation is really nice in warmer weather, even when using regular boots instead of FiveFingers, as it keeps toe blisters from forming. However when they get wet, this design makes for even colder toes. When snowshoeing out, we ended up wearing them not fully pulled on, with the toes folded underneath, as this would keep our toes warmer for longer. Strangely, I found that I would get a bit chilly when sleeping while wearing these socks while dry, however I slept warm and comfortable without wearing socks. I think some regular wool socks to wear in boots or the tent would be better.
* Sleeping Bag Groundsheet (Feathered Friends Condor Groundsheet) - we use our sleeping bag as a quilt with a groundsheet. However, the groundsheet includes a small down footbox which seems matched to their 20- or 30-degree Condor bags, and was not as warm as the 0-degree bag we have. I have already ordered a replacement groundsheet which has an ounce of overfill added to the footbox to alleviate this problem. For this trip, we stuffed some extra garments into the bottom to add insulation at this weak spot.
* Mid layers (random wool sweaters, Ideology cotton leggings) - we didn't have any real gear for this task, so we grabbed what we could from our wardrobe. It worked out okay but certainly wasn't as optimal as most of our backpacking gear. I think ideal is just to add another 260-320gsm Icebreaker layer. Alternatively, I wonder about using a silk base layer and using our existing wool base layer as a mid-layer.
* Outer layers (Patagonia down jackets (3oz down), Prana Stretch Zion pants) - Our Patagonia down jackets offered significant insulation, and on one hand I like having thin layers for more versatility. However I would have liked to have more down insulation on my torso while in camp, and some down pants as well. These could also be used at night for ever colder temperatures, however we did not actually wear our jackets at night this trip, but instead used them to add insulation to the foot of the sleeping arrangement or as pillows. I am thinking that for cold weather, a couple sets of Frontpoint jackets and pants from Feathered Friends would be ideal to have. I'd also really like a set of down booties and intend to order some soon. Our Prana Stretch Zion pants are great for warmer weather and to their credit, don't retain water and dry quickly (also, snow did not seem to adhere to it very easily), but I would have liked to have something more substantial and water resistant for this sort of weather. There are design differences between the men's and women's versions of the Zion pants, and while the men's version is fantastic, the women's version is sadly a lot worse. Unfortunately, we were not able to find a men's version of the pants that fit my wife in stock at REI, or we'd have switched to them. We will have to pursue this further or modify the pants to work better, as she was unable to keep them adjusted properly to stay up without being a constant annoyance.
* Rain Gear (pants, none) - I'd really like some water-resistant pants to add to our kit. Not a skirt but actual pants. A skirt may do in warmer weather but when tromping through snow, pants seem ideal. Outdoor Research makes Helium pants for men, but sadly not for women. May be able to find a men's pair that fits my wife well though. It would also be ideal if we could find or make a waterproof suit for the baby to go over his wool and down layers, for when we want to venture out in the snowfall without taking the carrier and it's rain cover.
* Wool Gloves (Icebreaker Sierra 200gsm) - Under the Revel mitts we wore Icebreaker Sierra gloves. These were better than nothing but were overall a disappointment that resulted in freezing fingers, especially when holding poles while snowshoeing. I think some heavier weight wool glove liners are in order (maybe the Icebreaker Apex ones), but probably having some down mitts would be a good idea as well.

Things that did not get used:
* Umbrellas (EuroSHIRM SwingLite) - these are great in rain but in the snow it was fine to just rely on rain gear.
* Microspikes (Kahtoola) - this was a trip where snowshoes were required, but microspikes were just extra weight.
* Wool coats - we carried along wool coats just in case we needed the extra warmth (not hiking oriented and neither compact nor lightweight). We didn't.

[TNhiker]

The Kelty continues to impress me




This...

Glad its working out for ya.......

and once you get around to doing the thru----if i can help out and im around (im in tennessee)----hit me up and ill try my best.....

[TNhiker]

Socks (Injinji Outdoor 2.0) - The toe separation is really nice in warmer weather, even when using regular boots instead of FiveFingers, as it keeps toe blisters from forming.



ive started using these socks as i need the toe separation since my toes seem to get mushed together...

however, i wont wear them on a route where i know ill be doing alot of water crossings, as they arent sometimes easy to get off....

[Casey & Gina]

I re-uploaded all the images in the original post to have the correct orientation.

[Casey & Gina]

Very nice C&G...and Coyote??? Thanks for those pics, you've a beautiful family.

Yes, Coyote (13 months old) enjoyed the adventure with us. Someone suggested a trail name of Stoic for me elsewhere on this forum, and when I mentioned that to my wife originally she thought it was silly, but after this weekend, says that I earned it - haha. So now I guess she's the only one who still needs a trail name. :)

[Kaptainkriz]

Super writeup!

[coach lou]

You guyz are awesome!!!! :banana:banana:bananaYou got me looking at those tents now!!! :-?

I can't wait to cross paths again.....I hope Overload is with me!:sun

[Casey & Gina]

You guyz are awesome!!!! :banana:banana:bananaYou got me looking at those tents now!!! :-?

I can't wait to cross paths again.....I hope Overload is with me!:sun

Expensive and not light but well worth it... I ogled them for months before springing for the Keron. Almost opted for the Kaitum until the last minute, and the Staika and Allak and even the Nallo got a fair bit of consideration too. I couldn't be happier though with the Keron as a "no compromises" bombproof tent, and it will remain my preference for winter backpacking for sure. I am just tempted to get a lighter Hilleberg for 3-season use that will likely prove more dependable than my Big Agnes...I am pretty well sold on the double wall concept and love how the whole shebang goes up at once with a footprint and inner tent that can be removed from inside the main outer tent rather than the more common rainfly that you put on after pitching the tent concept. It's certainly a lot more pleasant during rain or snow... The Big Agnes works alright in the summer but sure isn't fun to pitch or take down in the rain...though the 2lb weight with a footprint is pretty appealing...

[Casey & Gina]

Expensive and not light but well worth it... I ogled them for months before springing for the Keron. Almost opted for the Kaitum until the last minute, and the Staika and Allak and even the Nallo got a fair bit of consideration too. I couldn't be happier though with the Keron as a "no compromises" bombproof tent, and it will remain my preference for winter backpacking for sure. I am just tempted to get a lighter Hilleberg for 3-season use that will likely prove more dependable than my Big Agnes...I am pretty well sold on the double wall concept and love how the whole shebang goes up at once with a footprint and inner tent that can be removed from inside the main outer tent rather than the more common rainfly that you put on after pitching the tent concept. It's certainly a lot more pleasant during rain or snow... The Big Agnes works alright in the summer but sure isn't fun to pitch or take down in the rain...though the 2lb weight with a footprint is pretty appealing...

Well, I just bought the tent we'll use for our thru-hike, an Anjan 3 GT (http://us.hilleberg.com/EN/products/yellow-label/anjan/anjan3gt.php). Got a good deal on a barely-used one. That'll save us almost 4 pounds. Since it's ventilation is along the bottom of the outer tent along the ground, it's not appropriate for winter use; we'll keep the Keron for that. :)

[Tipi Walter]

I notice you got to set up your Keron on almost bare ground for the first and only night and wondered what would've happened after the big snowstorm if you had to hike 3 or 4 miles in posthole mode and set up the Keron again that night? Question is, would you have needed a snow shovel to prepare a decent tentsite for the big Keron? I dislike camping on top of deep snow and so always prefer to dig down to ground level for my tent.

The Keron looks good in your first pic and of course I do most all of my cooking inside my Keron's vestibule.

Aren't you the guys I sent info to in regards to purchasing the Keron tent? Just wondering.

[Casey & Gina]

I notice you got to set up your Keron on almost bare ground for the first and only night and wondered what would've happened after the big snowstorm if you had to hike 3 or 4 miles in posthole mode and set up the Keron again that night? Question is, would you have needed a snow shovel to prepare a decent tentsite for the big Keron? I dislike camping on top of deep snow and so always prefer to dig down to ground level for my tent.

I didn't have a shovel - I did all the digging out of the tent with a snowshoe. Posthole mode in that snow would have been an absolute killer; even the snowshoes sunk a lot and made hard work of walking out. When we took breaks on the way back what we did was just stomp down a circle with our snowshoes, providing an area to set down our packs and sit down on our rain jackets. I figured if we had ended up needing to pitch the Keron again, I would have just stomped down the snow - first with snowshoes and then more with just boots, then pitched the tent on top of the snow. But I haven't tried it yet.

What snow shovel do you use for backpacking?


Aren't you the guys I sent info to in regards to purchasing the Keron tent? Just wondering.

Yes! I recently changed my username here from Raptelan to Casey & Gina, sorry for any confusion. You were a big inspiration for choosing this tent and I had sent you a couple private messages asking about Hillebergs in the past. I was thinking about a Jannu and then a Staika, then after thinking about it more, hearing from you, and looking at interior pictures, ended up torn between the Keron and Kaitum. The Keron is magnificent and I'm extremely happy with it, but as you know, it is heavy. So for 3-season use when there's little chance of snow, I decided to get an Anjan.

[egilbe]

Walter, you dont pack the snow down with your snowshoes and sleep on top of the snow? Snow is a good insulator. The ground is usually colder and if you dig down, you make a cold sink you are sleeping in...brrrr

[Tipi Walter]

What snow shovel do you use for backpacking?


The lightest high quality snow shovel I have found is the Voile XLM at a little over a lb---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Welcome-to-2015/i-PNChWZw/0/M/Winter%202015%20008-M.jpg
Laying out some winter kit for a winter trip last year. I like the Voile shovel and it's vital to carry when conditions go to Jonas snow levels or the Blizzard of 93 fun---but sometimes, often times, we do not get these kinds of snow.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Trip-163-in-March/i-FsV2JDQ/0/M/TRIP%20163%20042-M.jpg
Last January I used the shovel for my Keron tent in around 6 inches of snow---just to get to the ground which I prefer. Nothing like what you experienced during Jonas but I would've dug out even in 2 feet of snow if I had the shovel.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2006/The-Hilleberg-Staika-in-the/i-DDcNt9C/0/M/55-3%20%20Iron%20Camp%20and%20a%20Cleared%20Tentsite% 20%20d2-M.jpg
Here's another spot I cleared for my Staika tent back in the winter of 2006. When I didn't have a snow shovel I used my gloved hands and of course went thru several good pairs of $30 North Face liners. Ergo the shovel.


Walter, you dont pack the snow down with your snowshoes and sleep on top of the snow? Snow is a good insulator. The ground is usually colder and if you dig down, you make a cold sink you are sleeping in...brrrr

First off, we don't use or carry snowshoes in the Southeast mountains and I've never seen a winter backpacker here carrying snowshoes. And at around 4 extra pounds I'm not interested. Instead when we hit terrible conditions we posthole out butts off and suffer and feel very happy to go 3 miles and set up camp and repeat the process the next day.

And whenever I try to stomp down 2 feet of snow in my boots for my big Keron tent I always end up with a hellish lumpy surface unfit for setting up the tent or for sleeping, so I like to shovel out to the ground. "Moving snow" is something I have been doing for decades and it's a hard habit to break.

Cold ground is never a problem for me as I have a 7.5R pad system, but sleeping on slushy wet deep snow isn't ideal and so my quest for bare ground. The hard part is having a tent up and locked into a secure warm nest and then thinking about breaking camp and starting all over again that night at another snowy campsite. So, the tendency is to sit put in hunker-mode and wait for the blizzards to pass thru, then striking camp when snow levels are 10 inches and not 2-3 feet.

Oh and btw, here in the rhododendron "jungles", snowshoes would prove useless as the green tunnel collapses on itself with snowloaded branches and the "hike" then becomes a belly crawl with a 60 lb pack under the tunnel. Very crappy and very sucky. It takes 3 hot sweaty hours to go a mile in such conditions. On your belly. With your rain jacket hood over your head to keep the blasted snow clumps from going down your neck.

[Traillium]

Walter, you dont pack the snow down with your snowshoes and sleep on top of the snow? Snow is a good insulator. The ground is usually colder and if you dig down, you make a cold sink you are sleeping in...brrrr

Loving his thread and the wisdom from you folks with experience!

I'll make one assertion that is perhaps a sort of complication …

Here in the frozen North (southern Ontario, which has actually been uncharacteristically warm this season) I used to teach about snow ecology. We'd dig a pit through snow down to ground level, clean the face to a vertical plane so as to feel the different crystalline layers, and then insert long thermometers into each separate layer. For deep snow (knee-deep and more), the ground level is almost always at or even above freezing. The temperature grades to cooler as we approached the surface. Snow is a good insulator (and there's a whole living ecosystem under a good snowpack).

However, this gets somewhat complicated when we then consider sleeping on the ground as compared to sleeping on a layer of compressed snow. Depending on the extent of the snow compression, and on the resultant crystal structure of the snow, and the extent of heat ’leaking’ through your bottom pad layer, the thermal insulation value of the compressed snow as compared to the thermal insulation value of the near-frozen ground will vary.

TLDR: I would prefer dryish cold ground to all but the least-compressed fluffy dry snow. The wetter the ground, the more I'd go with lightly-compressed snow.


Bruce Traillium

[Tipi Walter]

Good take on it, Bruce.

I have set up on shallow snow before but prefer to dig to ground level in anything above 2 inches. In the Southeast we don't have low level "packed snow" below a two foot layer of "fresh snow", and so it's possible for us to dig out to the ground even in deep snow. We have "sort of" winters.

But many winter backpackers are standing on 6 or 8 feet of compacted snow and can in no way dig out to the ground, hence the need to create a packed snow platform using either a shovel or snowshoes.

In my location I just can never get that packed level platform as others get further north. With laborious boot stomping I still end up with ruts and lumps and impossible sleeping positions. The perfect scenario is as with the OP's situation: Start out with little to no ground snow, set up on the ground, let a giant snowstorm hit and savor your on-the-ground tentsite. Sit put for 4 or 5 days until the snow melts and enjoy the only warm cozy dry nest in a 10,000 acre cold world of white. Then after the snow melts to 4 inches, strike camp and hike 7 or 10 miles to another campsite.

[The Cleaner]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter.:eek: I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.Here's a few pics.334703347133472334733347433475

[Tipi Walter]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter.:eek: I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.Here's a few pics.334703347133472334733347433475

You aptly show the winter conditions which make backpacking in the Southeast so difficult---deep snow and as in Pic 1 the hateful Snowdowns whereby brush on the trail collapses making forward movement very difficult. Any mileage fever gets snubbed pretty fast in such conditions and so backpackers either bail to the closest road for a motel stay or pull hellish 3 mile days and work hard to set up the next night's camp. Repeat for the next 7 days etc.

I like the pic of your Svea stove in the tent vestibule---you are a brave man and these stoves tend to flare high when priming and when lighting after priming. The Svea 123 was all I ever used for 20 years but upgraded to the MSR Simmerlite.

Also like your Seagull MSR 2 liter titanium cook pot, one of my faves and you don't need a pot holder as the lip never gets hot.

And I recognize the Sangean yellow WX radio with weather band---had a couple over the years and they stopped working for no apparent reason.

[The Cleaner]

You aptly show the winter conditions which make backpacking in the Southeast so difficult---deep snow and as in Pic 1 the hateful Snowdowns whereby brush on the trail collapses making forward movement very difficult. Any mileage fever gets snubbed pretty fast in such conditions and so backpackers either bail to the closest road for a motel stay or pull hellish 3 mile days and work hard to set up the next night's camp. Repeat for the next 7 days etc.

I like the pic of your Svea stove in the tent vestibule---you are a brave man and these stoves tend to flare high when priming and when lighting after priming. The Svea 123 was all I ever used for 20 years but upgraded to the MSR Simmerlite.

Also like your Seagull MSR 2 liter titanium cook pot, one of my faves and you don't need a pot holder as the lip never gets hot.

And I recognize the Sangean yellow WX radio with weather band---had a couple over the years and they stopped working for no apparent reason. I solved the flare-up problem by putting a ring of fiberglass woodstove door gasket material around the base of the burner stem.It holds the fuel closer to the stem letting it heat faster.I got this fix from the Classic Camp Stove web forum group.I met 4 hikers that day,2 who were pushing on and 2 who were bailing at Allen Gap. Blizzard and Speedstick were staying and I've seen where Speedstick somehow made it to Erwin on Friday,but Blizzard is still MIA.

[rafe]

Casey, I like the way you summarize "What worked" and "What didn't." Way to go!

[Casey & Gina]

I left last Monday to hike the section from Allen Gap to Hot Springs to check on trail conditions for the Carolina Mtn. Club. Lots of snowdowns and 3' snow drifts.it took me 5 hours to hike the 3.5 miles to Spring Mtn. shelter.:eek: I made it to Hurricane Gap by 5pm and camped there on the shoulder of the road.

Thanks for sharing! Sadly the snow is almost all melted here now. The weather got quite warm, then rainy - amazing how fast 30" of snow can disappear. Glad to have gotten out to enjoy it when it was fresh. I can't say I'm eager to hit up soggy muddy trails that still have lots of slippery ice patches and slush though, at least not until I get some better boots. What kind of pack do you have?

[The Cleaner]

Thanks for sharing! Sadly the snow is almost all melted here now. The weather got quite warm, then rainy - amazing how fast 30" of snow can disappear. Glad to have gotten out to enjoy it when it was fresh. I can't say I'm eager to hit up soggy muddy trails that still have lots of slippery ice patches and slush though, at least not until I get some better boots. What kind of pack do you have? It's a Camp Trials New Horizon external frame pack.I bought this one to replace the first one just like it.The 1st one made it about 4000 miles till I discovered a crack in a weld.The latter one was purchased in 1989.I tried a few internal frame packs but just couldn't fit all of my winter gear into them.Also the panel loading front zipper allows access to everything without taking much out I like being able to keep my tent,sleeping bag and pad on the outside of my pack.Seems like for me that when packing up a camp it's much easier using a frame pack.

[Casey & Gina]

A few clarifications and updates:


so for a thru hike I am thinking about getting a lighter Hilleberg model that can deal with whatever is likely to hit us outside of actual winter without weighing as much.

I ended up getting a Hilleberg Anjan 3GT. It seems just perfect for what it is and our needs, and compliments the Keron nicely. The huge GT extended vestibule seems nice since there is only one vestibule on this model, and 3-pole tunnel tents are said to be the strongest. The overall weight including a footprint is 6lbs, so it's not the lightest, but for the benefits it offers I feel it is a great deal. A non-GT version would be lighter of course, and an Anjan 2 would be sufficient for most 2-person camping or even solo use with a weight of only 4lbs. Doesn't compare to the low weight of our Big Agnes tent, but I'd trust it a heck of a lot farther and it offers a lot more comfort. Hope to take it out for a quick test some time soon but probably won't get any real use out of it until later in the spring.


They worked very well in the hard and rocky soil, although I did manage to bend one that was being difficult (easily straightened with a hammer once I got home, could have been field-repaired with a rock).

Too be clear the bent peg was a slight C-shape to the overall peg, rather unlike a sharp bend in one place as will happen with V-pegs or tri-pegs. It took a lot of hammering to make straight again, but wasn't a hard job. It went to show me that even bent, I could have continued to use the peg indefinitely as it's strength was not compromised. Titanium nail pegs seem awesome. Only downside? Half an ounce (15g) each, and I need 18 of them for the Keron... Still, this is a small weight penalty and the drastically increased strength and durability is well worth it.

[quote]* Sleeping Bag (Feathered Friends Condor 0 w/4oz overfill) - Kept us pretty warm when wearing our wool baselayer, and had an abundance of space.

I really should have made more effort to praise Feathered Friends here. The overall design of the sleeping bag was great, with two cords that go through the top of the bag and can be tightened up from the center to cinch it down around your neck. The hoods zipper onto the groundsheet, but the snaps line up, so you can snap the hoods to the bags to keep the bag down close to your neck which makes a big difference. The snaps do not hold all that well under a lot of strain, but are easy enough to re-affix. Since we had the baby in the sleeping bag sharing one of our hoods, we usually only had one of the snaps towards the center snapped, which worked well enough unless somebody rolled over and caused it to unsnap. I think that adding a toggle and loop in the middle of the bag and groundsheet may be a good longer-term option, but so far it was not enough of an issue to make me want to modify anything. Unlike our last sleeping bags, the zippers almost never catch, and are also not a source of drafts since there is an ample draft baffle on each side. The Pertex Shield fabric on the outside was a great reassurance - at one point we spilled a small amount of water on the bag and it just sat there until we could wipe it up with a camp towel.


I am now convinced that for winter backpacking, good waterproofed boots are a must. I am inclined to follow Tipi Walter's lead here and will likely order Zamberlans for us.

I was surprised to see that REI is now carrying two models of Zamberlans, so if nothing else, you can go try them on to figure out what size is best for you. The GTX Guide boots they offer seem to be a good choice, though I'll probably end up ordering a model directly from Zamberlan that they don't resell.


There are design differences between the men's and women's versions of the Prana Zion pants, and while the men's version is fantastic, the women's version is sadly a lot worse. Unfortunately, we were not able to find a men's version of the pants that fit my wife in stock at REI, or we'd have switched to them. We will have to pursue this further or modify the pants to work better, as she was unable to keep them adjusted properly to stay up without being a constant annoyance.

I found a pair of 30x30 men's Prana Zions that fit her perfectly - problem solved and she's much happier with them! Hopefully Prana will fix a future version of these for the women's model.


* Rain Gear (pants, none) - I'd really like some water-resistant pants to add to our kit. Not a skirt but actual pants. A skirt may do in warmer weather but when tromping through snow, pants seem ideal. Outdoor Research makes Helium pants for men, but sadly not for women. May be able to find a men's pair that fits my wife well though. It would also be ideal if we could find or make a waterproof suit for the baby to go over his wool and down layers, for when we want to venture out in the snowfall without taking the carrier and it's rain cover.

We ended up getting Outdoor Research Helium Pants. They seem great and I look forward to testing them out. For the baby, we got an Oakiwear Trail rain suit. Overall, it's a good design, but has two fundamental flaws. First, it's a waterproof garment but uses a standard zipper - water seeps through it at an alarming rate. I contacted Oakiwear and they let me know that their new 2016 model, arriving in stock this month, has a waterproof zipper instead. Thank goodness. The second issue is quite minor - the seams are all taped, but there is a tag sewn to one of the seams, and the tape goes over the top of the tag, leaving the seam below the tag unsealed. This should be easy enough to fix ourselves, and Oakiwear said that in the future, they will be switching away from using tags and just printing information on the inside of the garment directly.


* Wool Gloves (Icebreaker Sierra 200gsm) - Under the Revel mitts we wore Icebreaker Sierra gloves. These were better than nothing but were overall a disappointment that resulted in freezing fingers, especially when holding poles while snowshoeing. I think some heavier weight wool glove liners are in order (maybe the Icebreaker Apex ones), but probably having some down mitts would be a good idea as well.

I forgot to mention that I also took a pair of non-insulated leather gloves. I actually used them quite a bit, but without the Revel mitts, and they ended up soaking wet and not getting used again. Since then I discovered the Smartwool Ridgeway gloves and they are awesome! Of course, we'll need to take care they don't get wet by using them under the overmitts in rain or snow, but the combination of a wool lining and soft goat leather outer is very comfortable and should be tough enough to stand up to all sorts of tasks on their own.

[Casey & Gina]

It's a Camp Trials New Horizon external frame pack.I bought this one to replace the first one just like it.The 1st one made it about 4000 miles till I discovered a crack in a weld.The latter one was purchased in 1989.I tried a few internal frame packs but just couldn't fit all of my winter gear into them.Also the panel loading front zipper allows access to everything without taking much out I like being able to keep my tent,sleeping bag and pad on the outside of my pack.Seems like for me that when packing up a camp it's much easier using a frame pack.

I agree completely, as an external frame user myself after a number of trials with other packs. I will have to check out the design of yours - these things fascinate me.

[TNhiker]

I was surprised to see that REI is now carrying two models of Zamberlans, so if nothing else, you can go try them on to figure out what size is best for you. The GTX Guide boots they offer seem to be a good choice, though I'll probably end up ordering a model directly from Zamberlan that they don't resell.




on my way to maryland a few years ago, i stopped at like 4 REIs to see what models of Zamberlans they carried (as all stores dont carry the same models)....


i finally found a pair at the college park maryland REI that fit me well, and that i liked.......

and to be honest, they might be the best boot i have bought in 30 years........

[Casey & Gina]

on my way to maryland a few years ago, i stopped at like 4 REIs to see what models of Zamberlans they carried (as all stores dont carry the same models)....


i finally found a pair at the college park maryland REI that fit me well, and that i liked.......

and to be honest, they might be the best boot i have bought in 30 years........

Interesting...I guess things change a lot over time. They didn't carry any in the stores here last year, and the person at the store told me they had never heard of them and that they just got them in stock.

We both found them to fit quite well, better than other brands, although they are definitely stiff boots that will require breaking in to be comfortable.

[TNhiker]

They didn't carry any in the stores here last year,



yeah....

i wanna say that the college park one was the only store that had the model i was looking for............i researched it on REI's website, and then you if you select the model, theres a tab that says "find in store".......

and thats what i did....

the REIs that i stopped at, were on my route to columbia so they werent necessarily outta the way for me..............




although they are definitely stiff boots that will require breaking in to be comfortable.


i didnt have any problems breaking them in..............i used them right from the box to do 15 or so miles and they were comfortable the whole time....

most boots nowadaze break in alot easier than boots from the yesteryear..........when one would have to put softener on the leather and things like that...

[Casey & Gina]

Got some lightly-used $300 Zamberlans at an REI Garage Sale event for $15, and have been stomping around in them daily for over a year now, including lots of trail time. Definitely the way to go for footwear!

[Casey & Gina]

HD Helium pants ripped when I slipped in the rain. Fixed but not impressed overall - they don't breath well enough. A trekking umbrella + lighterweight wind shell work MUCH better and the wind shell can be used in a lot broader conditions. The previous sentence as true on a skateboard as on the trail, btw.

[saltysack]

HD Helium pants ripped when I slipped in the rain. Fixed but not impressed overall - they don't breath well enough. A trekking umbrella + lighterweight wind shell work MUCH better and the wind shell can be used in a lot broader conditions. The previous sentence as true on a skateboard as on the trail, btw.

If your looking for awesome cheap ul wind pants check out these...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/148e3deaed92ededdfe44b8d6187a2f4.png


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