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ChuckT_15
01-26-2016, 18:04
Just saw this and I know that you can't believe everything but I am passing it along.
(I have a Physical next month, February, and I mean to ask my Physician.)

https://www.webmdhealth.com/!newsletters?id=AO0IOQz0I6qEtfY8d45Vhelq1khkMSOAz-ufhXmnVkrK0&s=10979&mrdid=1f22c340-0ec4-e511-a508-a0369f37142e

January 26, 2016
Men's Health

Does Testosterone Give Men Better Direction Sense?
By Tim Locke
Reviewed by Keith Barnard, MD

Dec. 8, 2015 -- Men may have a better sense of direction than women because of their hormones, Norwegian scientists say.
They came to their conclusion by giving men and women route-mapping tasks, and then seeing if a small dose of testosterone ”helped” the women's performances.
In a lab, the participants donned 3-D goggles and steered with a joystick to complete tasks that involved finding their way between two points on a virtual maze. And they were up against the clock.
The researchers viewed the men and women's brains with a real-time MRI scanner during the exercise.

Different Navigation Strategies

In the first tests involving 18 men and 18 women, "men's sense of direction was more effective,” says Carl Pintzka, from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology. “They quite simply got to their destination faster."
Although men solved 50% more of the tasks than the women, different tactics for navigating emerged.
Men used the points of the compass more than women did, Pintzka says. "If they're going to the Student Society building in Trondheim, for example, men usually go in the general direction where it's located. Women usually orient themselves along a route to get there, for example, 'Go past the hairdresser and then up the street and turn right after the store.’"
Overall, using the main compass points is more efficient because it's more flexible, he says. This strategy is less dependent on where you set off from.
The real-time MRI images showed some differences in areas of the brain used by men and women while navigating.
The guys were more likely to use the part called the hippocampus, while women used frontal areas of the brain more.
"That's in sync with the fact that the hippocampus is necessary to make use of cardinal directions" using north, south, east, and west, Pintzka says.
He says evolution has played a role in the gender differences: "In ancient times, men were hunters and women were gatherers. Therefore, our brains probably evolved differently. For instance, other researchers have documented that women are better at finding objects locally than men. In simple terms, women are faster at finding things in the house, and men are faster at finding the house."

Testosterone Test
In a second series of tests, some women were given a small dose (0.5 mg) of testosterone dissolved under their tongue. The researchers found that several members of this group were able to orient themselves better in the four main north, south, east, and west directions.
A group of 42 women was then divided in two, and the groups were randomly given the hormone or a placebo (fake) treatment. Neither the women nor the researchers knew who got which doses.
"We hoped that they would be able to solve more tasks, but they didn't. But they had improved knowledge of the layout of the maze. And they used the hippocampus to a greater extent, which tends to be used more by men for navigating," Pintzka says.
He says the findings may help us understand some symptoms of Alzheimer's disease, where losing the sense of direction can be an early sign.
"Almost all brain-related diseases are different in men and women, either in the number of affected individuals or in severity. Therefore, something is likely protecting or harming people of one sex. Since we know that twice as many women as men are diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, there might be something related to sex hormones that is harmful," he says.
The researchers say fluctuating female hormones during the women's menstrual cycles may have affected the results. Some women may think having the navigation tests designed by a man may have played a role.

SOURCES:Pintzka, C. Behavioral Brain Research, published online Nov. 2, 2015.
News release, EurekaAlert.
© 2015 WebMD, LLC. All rights reserved.

JohnHuth
01-26-2016, 18:16
Some women may think having the navigation tests designed by a man may have played a role.


That's an interesting way of phrasing it.

Old Grouse
01-26-2016, 18:35
It won't matter. We'll still be wrong.

4eyedbuzzard
01-26-2016, 18:56
From the article,
"In ancient times, men were hunters and women were gatherers. Therefore, our brains probably evolved differently. For instance, other researchers have documented that women are better at finding objects locally than men. In simple terms, women are faster at finding things in the house, and men are faster at finding the house."I have read many recent academic studies, however, that refute this commonly held theory. Basically, the argument is that in pre-agricultural societies both genders participated in both activities, and when division was called for, likely the best hunters hunted, and the best gathers gathered, and that any ongoing division of labor was more along lines of age and physical ability.

There are also studies that show that the minor differences in navigational abilities displayed by sample groups of men and women are significantly reduced or eliminated by training. Factoring out physical gender differences (mostly size), one has to wonder just how much environment, indoctrination, education, culture, gender roles, etc., play into all the differences in abilities. Obviously, hormones, both male and female, affect behavior. But there remains the problem of associating these large group comparisons to assumptions about individuals. I'll take Holly Holm or Rhonda Rousey to score a round 1 KO over the toughest guy I knew in high school.

An interesting subject.

Uncle Joe
01-26-2016, 19:08
Wow! Women and men actually different? With all due respect to post above, there are more differences than mere size (I'm sure you'd agree). I got into a heated exchange with a women who literally believed that the only difference between men and women's physical abilities was how they were reared. Women being raised to think they were inferior was why women tended to be weaker. Raise a boy and a girl up identically and you would neutralize any physical differences (apparently, save the obvious), she contended. I don't know if the article above is true or not. Can't say. I think we as a society fail to celebrate the differences between men and women. Feminists today seek to define women in male terms. "She can do anything a man can do." Men are better at certain tasks than women. But here's the thing, women are much better at other tasks than men. in fact, the mere mention that women may be better at finding localize objects quite literally makes her value equal in such things, just different. We're different, for good reason, and thank goodness!

Sarcasm the elf
01-26-2016, 19:32
From the article,I have read many recent academic studies, however, that refute this commonly held theory. Basically, the argument is that in pre-agricultural societies both genders participated in both activities, and when division was called for, likely the best hunters hunted, and the best gathers gathered, and that any ongoing division of labor was more along lines of age and physical ability.

There are also studies that show that the minor differences in navigational abilities displayed by sample groups of men and women are significantly reduced or eliminated by training. Factoring out physical gender differences (mostly size), one has to wonder just how much environment, indoctrination, education, culture, gender roles, etc., play into all the differences in abilities. Obviously, hormones, both male and female, affect behavior. But there remains the problem of associating these large group comparisons to assumptions about individuals. I'll take Holly Holm or Rhonda Rousey to score a round 1 KO over the toughest guy I knew in high school.

An interesting subject.

I'll add to your comment that women are only slower runners than men at "short" distances. Once you start to look at distances of over 30-50miles the women average nearly the exact same total speed as men.

Who would ever run 30-50 miles? Primarily early tribal humans engaging in pursuit/persistence hunting, the exact practice that anthropologists are beginning to hypothesize gave early modern humans their evolutionary advantage over other hominid species and other predators.

Water Rat
01-26-2016, 19:34
I've met many Directionally Challenged women. I have also met many Directionally Challenged men... I think some people are just better at some things than others. I am not sure as I would necessarily chalk it up to one gender (as a whole) being "better" than another. It's not something that can really be measured as all or nothing.

4eyedbuzzard
01-26-2016, 19:35
Wow! Women and men actually different? With all due respect to post above, there are more differences than mere size (I'm sure you'd agree). I got into a heated exchange with a women who literally believed that the only difference between men and women's physical abilities was how they were reared. Women being raised to think they were inferior was why women tended to be weaker. Raise a boy and a girl up identically and you would neutralize any physical differences (apparently, save the obvious), she contended. I don't know if the article above is true or not. Can't say. I think we as a society fail to celebrate the differences between men and women. Feminists today seek to define women in male terms. "She can do anything a man can do." Men are better at certain tasks than women. But here's the thing, women are much better at other tasks than men. in fact, the mere mention that women may be better at finding localize objects quite literally makes her value equal in such things, just different. We're different, for good reason, and thank goodness!The question isn't if men are better at certain tasks than men, and vice-versa - the differences are pretty obvious in many areas. And I don't suggest for a minute that women will, lets say, wind up competing against men at the highest levels, say in the NFL, NBA, etc. It's not going to happen. We've seen attempts. And at the very highest levels, men have an advantage. Then again, it's not so great as many think - there are women tennis players, golfers, etc., who have competed at the pro level and finished ahead of many of the men pros in tournaments. No, they didn't win, but they held their own in an elite field. Further, I certainly didn't imply that we shouldn't recognize or even celebrate those differences. But the question is why there are differences in many basically intellectual everyday activities/behaviors. How much of these difference are due purely to genetics, gender, and hormones, and how much is due to pervasive environmental factors like indoctrination, gender roles, societal pressure, social norms, ect.? The subject has to be looked at unemotionally and from an unbiased perspective if a scientifically sound answer is desired.

Puddlefish
01-26-2016, 20:01
I've met many Directionally Challenged women. I have also met many Directionally Challenged men... I think some people are just better at some things than others. I am not sure as I would necessarily chalk it up to one gender (as a whole) being "better" than another. It's not something that can really be measured as all or nothing.

Half my family can't tell left from right, and both sides are well represented.

Them: Take a left!
Me: Would you just please point?

Water Rat
01-26-2016, 20:17
Half my family can't tell left from right, and both sides are well represented.

Them: Take a left!
Me: Would you just please point?

Oh, you have to film that next time! The mixed directions and reactions would be wonderful to catch on video! :D

Puddlefish
01-26-2016, 20:42
Oh, you have to film that next time! The mixed directions and reactions would be wonderful to catch on video! :D


It used to go like this.

Take a left
Directional on, moves into the left lane
Why are you getting in the left lane?
Grrr, directional on and moves back into the right lane
You said left
I meant MY left!

Pointing is safer for everyone on the road.

4eyedbuzzard
01-26-2016, 21:10
...The mixed directions and reactions would be wonderful to catch on video! :D


...Pointing is safer for everyone on the road.

One day while driving . . .
Mrs. Buzzard: "Duck!"
Me: I reflexively flinch and duck down just a bit while driving. "Why?"
Mrs. Buzzard: "No! Duck!"
Me: What - why?
Mrs. Buzzard: [now pointing] "Noun!"
Me: Huh? Oh, that "duck". Slowed and stopped to let momma duck and ducklings cross road.

Yeah, pointing is good.

Water Rat
01-26-2016, 21:17
It used to go like this.

Take a left
Directional on, moves into the left lane
Why are you getting in the left lane?
Grrr, directional on and moves back into the right lane
You said left
I meant MY left!

Pointing is safer for everyone on the road.

:D Now I am officially worried! I think I might be inclined to start making "L" and "R" on some shoes... ;)

Water Rat
01-26-2016, 21:19
One day while driving . . .
Mrs. Buzzard: "Duck!"
Me: I reflexively flinch and duck down just a bit while driving. "Why?"
Mrs. Buzzard: "No! Duck!"
Me: What - why?
Mrs. Buzzard: [now pointing] "Noun!"
Me: Huh? Oh, that "duck". Slowed and stopped to let momma duck and ducklings cross road.

Yeah, pointing is good.

HA! That's like my story about the "dear."

Me: Deer!
Friend: Yes?
Me: No, deer
Friend: I heard you... Yes, dear?
Me: You are gonna hit that freakin' deer if you don't watch out (said as I was pointing)!!

Agreed - Pointing is the universal language when it comes to directions ;)

MuddyWaters
01-26-2016, 23:14
When i try to give my wife directions, she doesnt know north or south, only left and right.

Sarcasm the elf
01-26-2016, 23:17
When i try to give my wife directions, she doesnt know north or south, only left and right.

Try driving through Western Connecticut. We have two major highways and they are nearly parallel to eachother. One is marked as going North and South, the other is marked as going East and West :datz

Uncle Joe
01-26-2016, 23:34
... But the question is why there are differences in many basically intellectual everyday activities/behaviors. How much of these difference are due purely to genetics, gender, and hormones, and how much is due to pervasive environmental factors like indoctrination, gender roles, societal pressure, social norms, ect.? The subject has to be looked at unemotionally and from an unbiased perspective if a scientifically sound answer is desired.

Totally agree! I think scientifically, the answers can only help us understand humans better. The problem is it's becoming more and more difficult to study such things without political and social influence. Our culture is learning that manipulation of data is as ripe for leveraging power as manipulation of people.

4eyedbuzzard
01-26-2016, 23:40
Totally agree! I think scientifically, the answers can only help us understand humans better. The problem is it's becoming more and more difficult to study such things without political and social influence. Our culture is learning that manipulation of data is as ripe for leveraging power as manipulation of people.
I agree!...

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

rocketsocks
01-27-2016, 08:51
Is up a direction? :D

JohnHuth
01-27-2016, 10:02
When i try to give my wife directions, she doesnt know north or south, only left and right.

Without going into gender issues - this is actually an interesting question. I've been working with anthropologists who study spatial orientation and navigation in the Pacific Islands. The Austonesian language family (e.g. Polynesian, Marshallese) doesn't use 'left' and 'right' so much, but uses 'north' and 'south' or 'lagoon side' and 'ocean side' - there are assertions that people who speak these languages have a better absolute sense of direction because they're forced to use a different reference system rather than 'right' and 'left'.

Also - 'up' and 'down' and 'front' and 'back' are definitely direction indicators.

JohnHuth
01-27-2016, 10:02
Austronesian...whoops

Harrison Bergeron
01-27-2016, 10:47
I had to write down the directions for my wife to give her customers on how to find our shop when I once overheard her telling someone to "turn right at the red car". I swear the gene for navigation must be found on the Y chromosome.

But I sure hope it's not a testosterone thing. Last year the shuttler dropped me a Gooch Gap and I walked a mile before it dawned on me to wonder why there were so many SOBO's so far south so early in the season.

Goatgas
01-27-2016, 11:41
Not so sure, as my wife is always telling me were I can go...

Old Grouse
01-27-2016, 16:11
Hence my post # 3.

atraildreamer
01-28-2016, 15:50
Does the increased testosterone prevent men from asking for directions? :confused: Just wondering...:-? :D

Traillium
01-28-2016, 19:07
Does the increased testosterone prevent men from asking for directions? :confused: Just wondering...:-? :D

… undoubtedly …


Bruce Traillium

One Half
01-28-2016, 20:10
I will take exception to the "findings." My husband is terrible at directions. And I don't mean following them. He has no innate sense of where we are at any given time.

We were once driving back from western MA to our apartment in Quincy after a weekend hike. I fell asleep and woke up when he asked me "do you know where we are?" I swear. I had just woken. I looked around as we were driving on the "highway" and stated "NH. Either just north or south of Concord I would guess." Not 2 minutes later we saw a sign for Concord. And this was more than 20 years ago and there was nothing but trees in view when I said this.

Even around town he will be confused as to which way is north or east. And I have to say, living in a grid city, it's pretty easy to know where you are at all times. At least for me.

But perhaps it comes from having grown up in the sticks and just not wanting to get lost in the woods when wondering. I always tell people I have a compass in my head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Puddlefish
01-28-2016, 20:16
I will take exception to the "findings." My husband is terrible at directions. And I don't mean following them. He has no innate sense of where we are at any given time.

We were once driving back from western MA to our apartment in Quincy after a weekend hike. I fell asleep and woke up when he asked me "do you know where we are?" I swear. I had just woken. I looked around as we were driving on the "highway" and stated "NH. Either just north or south of Concord I would guess." Not 2 minutes later we saw a sign for Concord. And this was more than 20 years ago and there was nothing but trees in view when I said this.

Even around town he will be confused as to which way is north or east. And I have to say, living in a grid city, it's pretty easy to know where you are at all times. At least for me.

But perhaps it comes from having grown up in the sticks and just not wanting to get lost in the woods when wondering. I always tell people I have a compass in my head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You knew you weren't in Mass, because the roads were properly paved, and the drivers were using turn signals. Too easy! Of course, half the people don't use them in NH these days either :(

August W.
01-29-2016, 09:47
You knew you weren't in Mass, because the roads were properly paved, and the drivers were using turn signals. Too easy! Of course, half the people don't use them in NH these days either :(

My wife and I spent a couple weeks in Maine last year after the summer tourist rush and before the leaf peepers crowded in. It took us about a week to realize that, to a very noticable extent, NH drivers are not generally thought of with fondness in ME. We learned this because the rental car agency we used in Maine apparently has a twisted sense of humor and/or also owns an auto bodyshop as they rented us a car with NH tags front and back knowing that we would be spending two weeks exclusively in ME. We met some of the nicest, most welcoming people in ME, Northern ME in particular, but we soon learned that drivers from NH have earned a reputation, not the least of which is the lack of turn signal usage mentioned above. Fortunately my wife had convinced me to get the more extensive insurance on the rental car as it ended up being involved in two hit-n-runs. We didn't witness either of them and nobody left a note. Seems we got treated as "Massholes", but it did kind of added to our wonderful vacation.

I have spent most of my life playing and working outdoors and have great sense of direction, but my wife?? Not so much. The previous posts about driving directions/navigation certainly resonate with me. When we are visiting an area for the first time I do the driving and my wife is the co-pilot, usually with some form of gps as she hates printed maps and displays this hatred when she "folds" and puts them away.

Seven lanes of speeding, weaving traffic while passing through a never-before-seen urban wasteland.....my hands at 10 and 2 as I try to keep the careless, non-signaling lane changers out of the safe traveling distance between us and the raging hunk of steel in front of us....knowing our route is going to soon require changing lanes.....overpasses, underpasses, bridges, tunnels....mega-road system laid out more like a bowl of noodles than a sensible highway........
Our words often go like this:
Me: Where's the next turn and which lane should we be in?
Wife: Oh sh** it's right up there!
Me: Which lane?
Wife: (Pointing) OVER THERE
Me: I'm sorry but I can't watch traffic, check mirrors, change lanes, and keep an eye on which way your hand is pointing all at the same time.
Wife: I was pointing right there!
Me: Were you pointing left or straight because from over here your arm just appears to be out at an angle. Does that mean take the exit ramp to the left or the overpass on the left but right of the exit on the left??
Wife: Just find somewhere to turn around......

Thank goodness her smartyphone now has a talking gps feature!! Now if I could just disable it's speeding notification...

August W.
01-29-2016, 09:53
Add, not added. (above)

Sarcasm the elf
01-29-2016, 11:28
It really amuses me that we are even having a conversation that implies that sense of direction is the result of some sort innate instinct, as opposed to being a skill that is learned with time and effort.

4eyedbuzzard
01-29-2016, 11:41
It really amuses me that we are even having a conversation that implies that sense of direction is the result of some sort innate instinct, as opposed to being a skill that is learned with time and effort.I think it's more a discussion on how gender may, or may not, play a role in acquiring and using those skills. As a species we aren't born with much in the way of innate abilities when it comes to most things - except learning.

Scrum
01-29-2016, 12:06
Without going into gender issues - this is actually an interesting question. I've been working with anthropologists who study spatial orientation and navigation in the Pacific Islands. The Austonesian language family (e.g. Polynesian, Marshallese) doesn't use 'left' and 'right' so much, but uses 'north' and 'south' or 'lagoon side' and 'ocean side' - there are assertions that people who speak these languages have a better absolute sense of direction because they're forced to use a different reference system rather than 'right' and 'left'.

Also - 'up' and 'down' and 'front' and 'back' are definitely direction indicators.

Interesting. Out on the AT, rather than 'lagoon side' and 'ocean side' people tend to use 'Springer side' and 'Katahdin side'.

oldwetherman
01-29-2016, 22:27
I don't know if this is truly relevant to this discussion.....but some years ago I heard "Click and Clack'...renowned hosts of the NPR show "Car Talk" state that when in a moving vehicle women tend to think of themselves as the navigator while men view them as the nagivator.

JohnHuth
01-30-2016, 09:06
Being a nerd here - there are regions of the brain associated with navigation: the hippocampus, the entorhinal cortex, the parietal cortex, and now some evidence for the retrosplenial cortex. There's a kind of 'hard wiring' for navigation, but it has to be used. There's good evidence that, like a muscle, the more you use the mechanisms for navigation in the brain, the better it gets. If you don't use it so much, the ability isn't as honed.

In the class I teach students navigation, the stars, how to forecast weather from the clouds etc. Invariably, it's an acquired skill, and some will do better than others, sort of like playing an instrument. Still, we all have the brain mechanisms for navigation - the more we use them, the better we get at it.