View Full Version : Hiker feed issues
squeezebox
01-31-2016, 02:11
Please don't. Trail feeds are even worse than feeding the bears. Maybe do some good and sign up for some trail maintenance instead.
Hikers can carry their own food but they don't carry tools for cleaning the trail.
Tuckahoe
01-31-2016, 07:16
Please don't. Trail feeds are even worse than feeding the bears. Maybe do some good and sign up for some trail maintenance instead.
Hikers can carry their own food but they don't carry tools for cleaning the trail.
What is it with you always taking a dump on threads? You'd think that you could tell the difference between a poster putting up an announcement in the Get Togethers folder, and someone opening up a hot button topic fo discussion.
doritotex
01-31-2016, 10:01
I agree. Please don't, these hiker feeds are getting out of control. The trail has become a big circus.
It's a kind gesture,,,,,and I will say this,I set up some food and drinks at a detour in connecticut last year,not knowing how frowned upon it is.Not one of the forty hikers that came by and ate and drank ever explained it to me either.If they had I would have picked up and left.I just want to apologize for doing it,it won't happen again....live and learn
No good deed goes unpunished, right? I think that this was a simple announcement from someone trying to do a nice thing for hikers, not an invitation to discuss whether hiker feeds are good or not. In a free society, free people are given the right of free association.
Puddlefish
01-31-2016, 10:22
Eh, one's at the Fontana Hilton. Not like they'll be clogging the trail for that one. Is the picnic shelter even directly on the AT? I don't have my trail map for that section yet, and don't see it in the guide.
As for "dumping" on threads, he's just stating an opinion. When there's something that one person enjoys, and another person feels detracts from the trail experience, then both people should be able to express their opinion. As long as everyone is respectful, that would seem to be within the TOS of this website.
I don't enjoy crowds, I don't enjoy ministry groups, I don't enjoy this kind of activity. I fail to see why my voice should be stifled, and yours should be heard.
Maybe between all of our opinions there can be compromise reached, and concerns can be addressed. Reasoned debate is a wonderful thing. Internet forums are a great place for such debate, as long as we keep within the terms of service.
damskipi
01-31-2016, 10:43
It's a kind gesture,,,,,and I will say this,I set up some food and drinks at a detour in connecticut last year,not knowing how frowned upon it is.Not one of the forty hikers that came by and ate and drank ever explained it to me either.If they had I would have picked up and left.I just want to apologize for doing it,it won't happen again....live and learn
If forty hikers partook of the feed, I don't think it's all that frowned upon. Sounds like you had forty people who appreciated what you did. I don't think you need to apologize for anything.
Sojourner: Clearly some people don't like them, so please don't set up smack dab in the middle of a trail. But if it's off trail a bit and you aren't hassling people...plenty of people seem to appreciate them, so I think it's okay. Just make sure you pack out the trash. Thanks for doing this.
I bet most of the critics wouldn't pass up an ice cold soda on a hot day.
Puddlefish
01-31-2016, 10:58
I bet most of the critics wouldn't pass up an ice cold soda on a hot day.
I gave up soda years ago, it's poison. It's essentially a serving of acid, with enough sweetener added so that your body doesn't immediately reject it for the poison that it is. It does horrible things to your body because of the pH balance. Basically most tasty foods are acidic. Ingest too much acid and your body has systems that negate that acid, push the limits and that balancing system will start eating your own bones.
I'd gladly pass up a soda, but I'd probably accept some water from a single individual hanging out, who wasn't evangelizing, and wasn't widening the trail by setting up a pavilion and grill and otherwise destroying my peace of mind.
4eyedbuzzard
01-31-2016, 10:59
It's a interesting situation. Decades ago, before thru-hiking became so popular, someone sitting at a road crossing with 50 cold sodas would probably have gone home with over 40 of them. It wasn't that there wasn't trail magic. People often would give you things - fresh vegetables while passing a farm, a cold soda or beer, an invite to dinner, a ride to town, etc. It's just that it wasn't advertised, scheduled, etc. Perhaps "staged" is the word I'm looking for. It was generally spontaneous, and more personal. So maybe it's more just a factor of the times we live in.
Oh I was getting the impression that it was a no no....I always pack out what I pack in and was actually on the road walk of the detour.Like I said no one walked by without grabbing something and no one told me what a bad idea it was.It was actually a give and take ordeal,,,,I wanted info on equipment and what they thought of the hike for future references,,,what do you think the percentage is of people that hike that frown upon this?
TexasBob
01-31-2016, 11:19
I gave up soda years ago, it's poison. It's essentially a serving of acid, with enough sweetener added so that your body doesn't immediately reject it for the poison that it is. It does horrible things to your body because of the pH balance. Basically most tasty foods are acidic. Ingest too much acid and your body has systems that negate that acid, push the limits and that balancing system will start eating your own bones .......................
I have been drinking massive amounts of soda for years and I haven't turned into a boneless quivering blob of jelly yet!
Puddlefish
01-31-2016, 11:29
I have been drinking massive amounts of soda for years and I haven't turned into a boneless quivering blob of jelly yet!
Get back to us when you fall and break your hip. It actually goes far beyond bone loss, into obesity and other ailments. Do some googling, find a site that you trust, better yet, ask your doctor. It's worth looking into.
I don't feel hiker feeds necessarily are bad, but I think they help to foster the party atmosphere along the trail. Some hikers will do whatever to get to a scheduled feed. A couple of years back I ran into some NOBO's in the Grayson highlands and they said they had an app for their phone that told about hiker feeds and trail magic. It seems some people down south get disappointed if there is not some trail magic at every road crossing.
4eyedbuzzard
01-31-2016, 11:32
Oh I was getting the impression that it was a no no....I always pack out what I pack in and was actually on the road walk of the detour.Like I said no one walked by without grabbing something and no one told me what a bad idea it was.It was actually a give and take ordeal,,,,I wanted info on equipment and what they thought of the hike for future references,,,what do you think the percentage is of people that hike that frown upon this?Hiker feeds and planned trail magic are much more a southern thing than northern thing. A large part of that is the sheer numbers all starting around the same time (within roughly a 4 week window). By the time "the herd" gets past Harpers Ferry, less than half remain, and even more so into New England, their numbers are cut to perhaps 25% of the original, and they have spread out a lot as well due to hiking pace. But even so, you don't see hiker feeds in the Whites in the summer, where there is a potential "hiker audience" on many days as large as anything you will see in the south in March/April. Local people, and organizations, are generally more reserved and/or focused on activities other than feeding hikers. Hiking isn't accompanied by the same party atmosphere that occurs with Springer Fever (note the Baxter State Park controversy).
I doubt many hikers actually frown on it (free food/beverage, etc.) at the time they receive it. But lots of starting thru-hikers aren't experienced or long term hikers either. Most seasoned hikers don't expect anything, and honestly, hitched rides are probably cherished more than anything else. But as hiker feeds and such proliferate and become commonplace, thru-hikers hear about it and almost start to expect it. Leading to seeing the situation in a less than positive light, and conjuring up negative thoughts about intentional trail magic. Such as, "Don't feed the thru-hikers - It's like feeding the bears, eventually the bears come to expect it."
TexasBob
01-31-2016, 12:00
Get back to us when you fall and break your hip. It actually goes far beyond bone loss, into obesity and other ailments. Do some googling, find a site that you trust, better yet, ask your doctor. It's worth looking into.
I did ask my doctor - Dr. Pepper - he said it was OK.
4eyedbuzzard
01-31-2016, 12:18
I did ask my doctor - Dr. Pepper - he said it was OK.Yes, but he's so misunderstood.
Lone Wolf
01-31-2016, 12:46
I did ask my doctor - Dr. Pepper - he said it was OK.
Dr. Enuf agrees
http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2012/09/soda-dr-enuf-mountain-dews-brother-tennessee.html
Soda was just an example. Substitute with bottled water, beer, burgers, hot dogs, etc. partake if you wish, move on if you don't.
As as for soda, I used to drink several cokes a day. I'm down to one or two per week.
Christoph
01-31-2016, 13:44
I don't feel hiker feeds necessarily are bad, but I think they help to foster the party atmosphere along the trail. Some hikers will do whatever to get to a scheduled feed. A couple of years back I ran into some NOBO's in the Grayson highlands and they said they had an app for their phone that told about hiker feeds and trail magic. It seems some people down south get disappointed if there is not some trail magic at every road crossing.
Very well said, my thoughts exaclty (only nicer). :)
squeezebox
01-31-2016, 17:52
Last spring I heard of a situation where a church group did a 3 week feed. They took up all the space in the nearby shelter, and all the nearby camp sites, not to mention clogging the privy and not maintaining it. Leaving no place for hikers for a month. Look at Maslov's hierarchy of needs. It's far more important to have a place to poop and sleep and a trail rid of roots etc. to trip over and bust my head open. Than to have a greasy burger to fill my tummy up. The real trail angels are the maintainers, the feeders are more trouble than good. If they want to feed their egos figure out something positive.
Lone Wolf
01-31-2016, 18:03
last year at gooch gap a church took over most of the space for 3 weeks doin' a feed, feeding hikers that ain't hungry yet
Slo-go'en
01-31-2016, 18:54
last year at gooch gap a church took over most of the space for 3 weeks doin' a feed, feeding hikers that ain't hungry yet
I'm not one to pass up on a free meal, but really, you'd think these church groups should be spending their time and money feeding the needy in their own communities. I guess it's just easier to feed "needy" hikers and pretend their doing some kind of ministry.
I'm not one to pass up on a free meal, but really, you'd think these church groups should be spending their time and money feeding the needy in their own communities. I guess it's just easier to feed "needy" hikers and pretend their doing some kind of ministry.
Maybe they figure hikers souls are more in need of salvation.
Lone Wolf
01-31-2016, 19:19
me, pirate and wee willy were handin' out beer to the hikers next to the church camp. THAT they appreciated :) they don't want food yet
I'm not one to pass up on a free meal, but really, you'd think these church groups should be spending their time and money feeding the needy in their own communities. I guess it's just easier to feed "needy" hikers and pretend their doing some kind of ministry.
AMEN! (Same goes for international "feel-good" mission trips!)
squeezebox
02-01-2016, 23:22
last year at gooch gap a church took over most of the space for 3 weeks doin' a feed, feeding hikers that ain't hungry yet
I'll bet they didn't do 1 second of trail work including cleaning up after themselves. Trail feeders should be required to get the apppropriate health dept license. 1st clean the trail. Then play with yourself.
MuddyWaters
02-02-2016, 01:09
Maybe they figure hikers souls are more in need of salvation.
Exactly.
They arent feeding hikers because they believe its charitable.
They are attempting to make a connection with young people looking for something thats missing in their life.
me, pirate and wee willy were handin' out beer to the hikers next to the church camp. THAT they appreciated :) they don't want food yet
I think it's disgraceful to hand out alcoholic beverages in nature's pristine woods !
You should be ashamed of yourself!
Unless it was Sammy Adams, in which case you're forgiven......
I'll bet they didn't do 1 second of trail work including cleaning up after themselves. Trail feeders should be required to get the apppropriate health dept license. 1st clean the trail. Then play with yourself.
Yeah, private citizens should need a health dept license to give away food at a road crossing. Ridiculous. Yes they should clean up after themselves. If they don't, litter laws already exist.
Not sure why hiker feeds bring out so much anger in some people. Just hike on. It isn't like anyone will force a soda into your hands. If the groups doing hiker feeds mess up the trail or litter in parking lots, deal with those groups through existing law.
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 10:59
Yeah, private citizens should need a health dept license to give away food at a road crossing. Ridiculous. Yes they should clean up after themselves. If they don't, litter laws already exist.
Not sure why hiker feeds bring out so much anger in some people. Just hike on. It isn't like anyone will force a soda into your hands. If the groups doing hiker feeds mess up the trail or litter in parking lots, deal with those groups through existing law.
I agree on the existing laws part. That will vary from town to town, state to state based on what those citizens want. If they don't want noisy festivals, and litter, they'll institute the laws that require permits, fees, law enforcement presence and all that stuff.
As for why hiker feeds bring out "anger", what's not to understand. People have told you why they have concerns in this very thread.
They don't want:
-to be preached at
- to encourage the party atmosphere on the trail
- crowds
- trail erosion
- reminders of the commercial world
- feeds taking shelter space for weeks on end
- the litter caused
I'm not saying the ministries group that started this thread have or will be guilty of these behaviors. They seem to be setting up off the trail, at a private business and at a picnic shelter (whatever that is.) Maybe they've heard some of these concerns in the past and are being courteous enough to have addressed them already. Maybe they'll read this thread and address them in the present?
I'm happy this thread exists, as I can now easily avoid this particular feed. I'm happy the original dissenter spoke up, so we could have a civil discussion.
Here's in imperfect analogy that should at least illustrate why people are speaking up. Imagine someone posted the following trail event.
Novice Bagpiper Recital at 8:00 pm at McAfee Knob Will be handing out complementary kazoos and confetti. For the benefit of the through hikers!
Whether hikers are "angry" or not is beside the point: Hiker feeds, as long as no local laws are broken, is a voluntary association between free people in a free country. If hikers are "angry" about it they can choose to (1) not participate; (2) hike a less crowded trail; (3) promote enforcement of laws that are being violated; (4) propose new laws if existing laws are not sufficient.
As for complaining about ministries - No one is forcibly preached to. If someone starts preaching, move on.
Also, I personally like solitude on the trail which is why I would never choose to hike the AT near the southern terminus during peak hiker season.
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 11:32
Whether hikers are "angry" or not is beside the point: Hiker feeds, as long as no local laws are broken, is a voluntary association between free people in a free country. If hikers are "angry" about it they can choose to (1) not participate; (2) hike a less crowded trail; (3) promote enforcement of laws that are being violated; (4) propose new laws if existing laws are not sufficient.
As for complaining about ministries - No one is forcibly preached to. If someone starts preaching, move on.
Also, I personally like solitude on the trail which is why I would never choose to hike the AT near the southern terminus during peak hiker season.
You used the word angry. I thought it was very much the wrong word, as it has a negative connotation and tends to diminish the person you're debating with, as if they're illogical and angry children. I don't see that anyone is angry here, thus I gave it the quote treatment.
I live about two miles from a Jehovah's Witness church, and every single time they go out on one of their rampages, they knock on my door. They ignore the ugly posted sign on my front porch. I call the police, but they don't give a crap. Short of spraying them with a hose, I'm stuck with them. So, I'm particularly sensitive to this issue. I go on the trail to escape this abuse.
Let me add to your list. 5) Discuss one's trail concerns on a website dedicated to the trail.
Free people in a free environment and all that. I fully intend to just walk on by them. All I ask is that they don't clog the trail, don't erode the edges of the trail, and not pester me after my initial "no thank you."
JaketheFake
02-02-2016, 12:03
Too any and all do gooders planning to dispense canned or bottled alcoholic beverages.... I like Tecate. Please do not forget the limes and of course the salt. If Tecates are not available Coronas work. How dare you try to save my soul!
You used the word angry. I thought it was very much the wrong word, as it has a negative connotation and tends to diminish the person you're debating with, as if they're illogical and angry children. I don't see that anyone is angry here, thus I gave it the quote treatment.
Squeezebox seemed angry to me.
New thread to discuss hiker feed issues..thanks
lonehiker
02-02-2016, 13:28
Squeezebox seemed angry to me.
You are contradicting yourself. You brought up the anger issue, then when called on it you say that, quote, "Whether hikers are "angry" or not is beside the point". But now you bring up the anger issue again. So, which is it?
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 13:36
Squeezebox seemed angry to me.
I try not to project anything beyond what's written. Written communications are tough enough without trying to get into the state of someone's mind.
Tuckahoe
02-02-2016, 13:37
Since Mags split up the threads, my opinion is no longer relevant to the discussion.
Mr. Bumpy
02-02-2016, 13:41
I section hike in the south well outside of the bubble and to me trail magic means when someone has left the hose out, or maybe a drink left in a spring. During the bubble time I may do a trail run from Sam's Gap to Hogback Ridge shelter and typically take in a bag of oranges or apples and take out a bag of trash just because. I've seen that shelter camped out with 30+ pretty miserable looking people and judging by their reactions this little surprise is in a lot of ways better than a meal at a road crossing.
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 13:42
Since Mags split up the threads, my opinion is no longer relevant to the discussion.
Actually, I thought you were the one who was first rude in the previous thread. Referring to someone's valid opinion as "dumping."
I did send a PM to Mags asking that he consider appending the forum heading, similar to the dogs forum. Then people would know that forum wasn't the place for dissenting opinions.
4eyedbuzzard
02-02-2016, 13:47
..........
Since Mags split up the threads, my opinion is no longer relevant to the discussion.
Same here. Peace out.
The best Hiker Feed I experienced was the one Quiet Paul did at Sam's Gap (anyone know if he's still doing it?). He did a great breakfast right on the side of the road. I mean he had everything from milk, bagels, fresh fruit, sausage, bacon and eggs! Funny thing was a few months later I'm hiking out of Rausch Gap, PA early in the morning and I see this hiker coming the other way. We stopped and talk, in the mean time I'm thinking that I know this guy. Finally it comes to me, "hey you're Quiet Paul from Sam's Gap, I know you!". We talked some more and I thanked him again. Two memories that I'll never forget. Thanks again Quiet Paul!
I sometimes set up at Old Forge Park by the Antietam shelter water source on the AT just north of Waynesboro. I do a lunch with hamburgers and all the fixings, sodas candy bars etc. Never had anyone complain, in fact I can't recall anyone turning me down. But for those of you who don't appreciate it please feel free to walk on by. Just kinda my way of paying back all the kindness shown me during my thru.
I can tell you that I never felt "preached at" by any church group, and I stayed at church hostels and did church hiker feeds, Mountain Crossing was a memorable one.
Puddlefish, I use to feel like you about the Jehovah's Witness's until one day when I was hiking past one of their halls which is located in CT. I was out of water and saw a group in the parking lot. I went over and asked if I could fill up at a hose on the building. They took me inside, filled up my water containers from the water cooler, offered me some left over food and a Coke. Now when they come to my house I'm very polite to them (although I'm still not converting).
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 13:53
It would be difficult, no, pretty much impossible, to have a forum titled Trail Concerns, Issues & History without people expressing differing opinions. What would be the point?
Same point as the Dogs forum. To give people a safe place to express their single sided opinions, without fear of a dissenting opinion to make them sad.
I personally don't enjoy frequenting forums where one side of a debate is quashed, but some people like that stuff. I think it's a bit fascist myself, but that's just my opinion.
I don't intentionally break forum rules, they run the website, it's their rules, I have no problem with that. A warning would allow rule abiding freedom loving debate fans such as myself notice that the particular forum is a child friendly zone.
A warning would allow rule abiding freedom loving debate fans such as myself notice that the particular forum is a child friendly zone.
Man..and I thought my Mom was passive aggressive. :)
I am an atheist. But, I don't go into a Mass and start debating the merits of Catholicism.
We are not squashing debate, rather asking people to politely go into the appropriate place on this website to have a debate. You don't post Colorado Trail shuttle questions on the Appalachian Trail shuttle forum by any chance? Same concept.
Puddlefish
02-02-2016, 14:43
Man..and I thought my Mom was passive aggressive. :)
I am an atheist. But, I don't go into a Mass and start debating the merits of Catholicism.
We are not squashing debate, rather asking people to politely go into the appropriate place on this website to have a debate. You don't post Colorado Trail shuttle questions on the Appalachian Trail shuttle forum by any chance? Same concept.
I was going for more of a snarky message rather than passive aggressive. :( I thank you for not quashing the debate, that part was serious. I just thought that forum description under get togethers invited discussion. Obviously I was wrong.
When hiking with my kids on the AT in the Whites, we often bring a few chocolate bars and/or some fresh fruit with us to give out to thru hikers - the friendly ones how stop and chat for a minute or two, or sometimes to a hiker that looks like he/she needs a pick-me-up.
It is feeding the hikers, and it is semi planned, so is this a hiker feed and thus frowned upon, or is it trail magic and accordingly acceptable?
Sarcasm the elf
02-02-2016, 15:42
When hiking with my kids on the AT in the Whites, we often bring a few chocolate bars and/or some fresh fruit with us to give out to thru hikers - the friendly ones how stop and chat for a minute or two, or sometimes to a hiker that looks like he/she needs a pick-me-up.
It is feeding the hikers, and it is semi planned, so is this a hiker feed and thus frowned upon, or is it trail magic and accordingly acceptable?
The best advice I can give is that you shouldn't change your actions just because you came across some strangers bickering on the internet. :sun
Offshore
02-02-2016, 16:06
Man..and I thought my Mom was passive aggressive. :)
I am an atheist. But, I don't go into a Mass and start debating the merits of Catholicism.
We are not squashing debate, rather asking people to politely go into the appropriate place on this website to have a debate. You don't post Colorado Trail shuttle questions on the Appalachian Trail shuttle forum by any chance? Same concept.
Seems fair to me. I think part of the problem may be that people click on the what's new icon, see a subject line in the list of threads and jump into the fray without looking at where the message was originally posted.
illabelle
02-02-2016, 16:51
We are not squashing debate, rather asking people to politely go into the appropriate place on this website to have a debate. You don't post Colorado Trail shuttle questions on the Appalachian Trail shuttle forum by any chance? Same concept.
To me, it was less an issue of which forum it was in, much more an issue of how we respond to someone posting on WB for the first time. The word you used, "politely", points to the central problem.
hikehunter
02-02-2016, 16:54
Last year on my section hike a lady had a trunk full of water jugs at the road crossing. The nearby water was frozen hard as a rock. The 3 other hikers I had grouped with were very happy that we did not need to fight the cold to melt ice and snow for water, or move on to "wetter pastures".
She had a pot of hot coffee and sugar cookiees. it was great.
On my way home after my hike I stoped at Fontana with some cookiees and figg newtons. There were 9 hikers there. I gave 2 of them a ride to get pizza and beer for the whole group. I stayed at the shelter as It was late. We had a good time. They thanked me the next morning and they hiked on into the GSMNP.
4eyedbuzzard
02-02-2016, 17:25
Last year on my section hike a lady had a trunk full of water jugs at the road crossing. The nearby water was frozen hard as a rock. The 3 other hikers I had grouped with were very happy that we did not need to fight the cold to melt ice and snow for water, or move on to "wetter pastures".
She had a pot of hot coffee and sugar cookiees. it was great.
On my way home after my hike I stoped at Fontana with some cookiees and figg newtons. There were 9 hikers there. I gave 2 of them a ride to get pizza and beer for the whole group. I stayed at the shelter as It was late. We had a good time. They thanked me the next morning and they hiked on into the GSMNP.That is more what I remember as old-school "trail magic".
I was grateful for jugs of water by the trailhead in a drought year in PA. I was getting a bit desperate, finding water was a real chore.
I was grateful for the beer handed to me at Unicoi Gap by Lagunatic, way back when (and other favors she did, for many of us.)
I was grateful for cold sodas carefully penned up in a stream bed in Vermont on a hot hike in August.
I was grateful for the many rides I received from strangers, some of whom went out of their way to accommodate me.
I was and remain grateful for all the other random acts of kindness that I encountered from Georgia to Maine.
I remember that an old guy in a huge camper covered with AT stickers offered me a root beer on a pull off on the Blue Ridge Parkway in VA. After I accepted it, he hit me up for money. I think I gave him a $5. Most expensive pop I ever drank, but I felt sorry for him. Since then I have given up pop, sugar, and processed foods. Feel much better. We don't need sugar/carbs, we can hike all day on more primal foods and our body fat.
Harrison Bergeron
02-02-2016, 18:46
Just a guess, but I would say that the number of people actually hiking the AT who object to free food is probably somewhat less than the number of WB posters who object.
In fact, I'd bet it's approximately the same as the number of actual hikers who walk past the free food without gettin' some (which strikes me as a pretty reasonable solution for those offended by free food).
But since I've never hiked in the bubble, I have no first-hand experience to base this on (which suggests another reasonable solution).
Anyone ever see a hiker walk past free food? Maybe we're worrying about something for nothing.
Sarcasm the elf
02-02-2016, 18:58
Since it hasn't been posted yet, here is what the ATC has to say about it.
https://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/suggestions-for-providing-trail-magic.pdf
mattjv89
02-02-2016, 20:30
Just a guess, but I would say that the number of people actually hiking the AT who object to free food is probably somewhat less than the number of WB posters who object.
Hit it on the head pretty much. The entire trail I don't recall a single person ever saying, "man I was pissed about that free food."
I am currently reading "The Angling Walker" by Gnu which I downloaded free on my Kindle. It is written by a fellow from Japan who hiked the PCT and part of the CDT. He talks about trail magic on the PCT and how he struggled with showing his gratitude for receiving trail magic. He said he couldn't "draw the line between helping each other and depending on someone." I found this attitude refreshing.
WingedMonkey
02-03-2016, 00:16
When hiking with my kids on the AT in the Whites, we often bring a few chocolate bars and/or some fresh fruit with us to give out to thru hikers - the friendly ones how stop and chat for a minute or two, or sometimes to a hiker that looks like he/she needs a pick-me-up.
It is feeding the hikers, and it is semi planned, so is this a hiker feed and thus frowned upon, or is it trail magic and accordingly acceptable?
That's the big difference.
You go hiking.
I'm always saying to folks on here asking where they should "park" to meet hikers, "If you want to meet hikers go hiking".
WingedMonkey
02-03-2016, 00:19
Since Mags split up the threads, my opinion is no longer relevant to the discussion.
It wasn't relevant before either...you gave no advice or recommendations to the OP on the original post.
Since ATC's website is down, I'll post the "Suggestions for Providing Trail Magic" that ATC developed with input from the trail community and Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association.
Feedback is welcome. These were developed almost 10 years ago and it's probably time to consider if any tweaks are needed.
Trail Magic, defined as an unexpected act of kindness, is a quintessential part of the Appalachian Trail experience for many long-distance hikers. The suggestions below incorporate Leave No Trace practices (www.LNT.org) to help those providing trail magic have the most positive impact on hikers, the Trail, its plants and wildlife, and the volunteers who maintain and preserve it. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy and the Appalachian Long Distance Hikers Association endorse these suggestions.
Help conserve and maintain the Trail. The most essential service you can perform is to volunteer to maintain the Trail and overnight sites, or to monitor boundaries and resource conditions. Visit www.appalachiantrail.org for more information, or check with your local trail-maintaining club to find out how or where you may assist.
Locate events in developed areas on durable surfaces. Large gatherings in the backcountry can lead to trampling of plants, soil compaction, and disturbance of wildlife habitat. Trail towns and local parks are better locations. Keep events small. Consider whether your event may be contributing to an overabundance of trail feeds in the local area or region. Some hikers come to the Trail to seek solitude and contemplation.
Prepare and serve food safely. If you will be cooking or preparing food, check with the landowner to find an appropriate area and learn what food-safety or other regulations apply. Permits may be required. Charging a fee or asking for donations may not be allowed.
Be present if you provide food or drink. Unattended items—including their packaging—can harm wildlife that consume them, or hikers, when unrefrigerated products grow bacteria or become contaminated. Unattended items are considered litter and their presence detracts from the wildland character of backcountry environments. Dispense food and drink in person, and carry out any trash or leftovers.
Restore the site. Leave the site as you found it—don’t create a burden for Trail volunteers whose time is better spent in other activities.
Advertise off-trail. Advertising—even noncommercial—is prohibited on the A.T. Publicizing a “feed” in advance can lead to clumping of long distance hikers, causing overcrowded conditions and avoidable impacts at shelters and campsites.
Forgo alcoholic beverages. Don’t risk the legality and liability associated with serving minors, over-serving adults, or the safety issues associated with intoxicated hikers.
Be hospitable to all. While many long-distance hikers will likely appreciate trail magic, be sure to make all trail users and volunteers feel welcome.
Laurie P.
ATC
squeezebox
02-03-2016, 16:09
Squeezebox seemed angry to me.
I'm not angry but I am disappointed. Again Maslov's hierarchy. I need a clean privy, no trash around the shelter, an improved trail roots and rocks, before I want a greasy cheeseburger. The group that clogs a shelter and surrounding campsites privy etc. for a month. I think the behavior is misguided. And that they could easily choose a better way to improve the AT. Keep the feeds in town. On the trail? Please improve the trail. I met a young man leaving a cooler of sodas, I just think that a trash can/bag carried out once a week from the nearby shelter would do more good. And thanks for the soda!!
This conversation makes me hungry for a greasy cheeseburger.
Sojourner 70
02-07-2016, 14:10
Thank you! We meet many grateful hikers, and our goody bags (prepackaged only) always disappear from the hiker boxes at the NOC quickly!
Hiker feeds and planned trail magic are much more a southern thing than northern thing. A large part of that is the sheer numbers all starting around the same time (within roughly a 4 week window). By the time "the herd" gets past Harpers Ferry, less than half remain, and even more so into New England, their numbers are cut to perhaps 25% of the original, and they have spread out a lot as well due to hiking pace. But even so, you don't see hiker feeds in the Whites in the summer, where there is a potential "hiker audience" on many days as large as anything you will see in the south in March/April. Local people, and organizations, are generally more reserved and/or focused on activities other than feeding hikers. Hiking isn't accompanied by the same party atmosphere that occurs with Springer Fever (note the Baxter State Park controversy).
Interesting observation about the difference up North and down South. I wonder how much of this difference can be attributed to the larger role of organized religion in the souther states. What percentage of the big hiker feeds down south are done by church groups?
Sojourner 70
02-07-2016, 14:43
It is Trail Magic on a limited 4 hour basis in a public picnic area close to the trail. Perhaps I misunderstood the term "Hiker Feed". This is my first time on White Blaze.
Pedaling Fool
02-07-2016, 15:06
It is Trail Magic on a limited 4 hour basis in a public picnic area close to the trail. Perhaps I misunderstood the term "Hiker Feed". This is my first time on White Blaze.Trail Feed is the most appropriate term for what many call Trail Magic. Trail Magic is a traditional term that predates these Trail Feeds (or Hiker Feeds).
True Trail Magic are unexpected events that happen while hiking the trail, almost magical in how they come to be, think of synchronicity and other such events and that's basically Trail Magic. When a group plans to feed hikers, that is NOT really Trail Magic, but they often erroneously use to term to describe it.
Many, such as myself, have become disheartened by these trail feeding events, because they can become so intrusive.
Puddlefish
02-07-2016, 15:11
It is Trail Magic on a limited 4 hour basis in a public picnic area close to the trail. Perhaps I misunderstood the term "Hiker Feed". This is my first time on White Blaze.
This is a matter of some opinion. What you're offering is indeed a Hiker Feed. People will have varied opinions on if what you're offering is considered Trail Magic.
The difference in my opinion is that a hiker feed is basically just a party or a promotion. Trail magic, again, in my opinion is when an individual gives something to another individual just for the heck of it. A random act of kindness.
Sojourner 70
02-07-2016, 15:20
Thanks to all for the enlightening discussion on hiker feeds and trail magic. I may have posted under the wrong title of hiker feed. This is our 5th year to do Trail Magic in the Smokies. We have paid $150 dollars in the past to pass out goody bags at Newfound Gap, a few hours on one day, observing all the necessary red tape and following all the safety and security rules. We are big on bottled water and green tea as well as sodas; We put only prepackaged food in our goody bags; We take care of all of our trash; We are also big on fresh fruit--which the GSMNPark approves all these things. The reason we choose Fontana Dam and Waterville picnic areas is because they are public areas off or close to the trail. We did do one worship service on a Sunday and the half dozen people who stayed enjoyed themselves, and the other half left for a town visit after freely partaking of our food and coming back for more food later along with fellowship. We love talking to the hikers and hearing their stories more than anything else. Many will stay and talk for hours--a real ministry boost to us. My husband died hiking in the Smokies. He also did parts of the AT and it was his heart's desire to do the the entire AT. Many of the women in my widow's group (we're Noah's Ark because we're all in the same boat) also enjoyed good times with their husbands in the Smokies. This is our special love for hikers that motivates us to do what we do (we have many other ministry projects); and it's the most exciting adventure of our yearly activities. I will pass on your concerns to my group.
Trail Feed is the most appropriate term for what many call Trail Magic. Trail Magic is a traditional term that predates these Trail Feeds (or Hiker Feeds).
True Trail Magic are unexpected events that happen while hiking the trail, almost magical in how they come to be, think of synchronicity and other such events and that's basically Trail Magic. When a group plans to feed hikers, that is NOT really Trail Magic, but they often erroneously use to term to describe it.
Many, such as myself, have become disheartened by these trail feeding events, because they can become so intrusive.
I also concur. What used to be considered trail magic can and does still happen, but the term Trail Magic now generally refers to non-spontaneous, pre-planned gifts of food and drink to hikers. Especially in the South in the springtime.
I've received the "new" TM, I've provided the "new" TM on a couple occasions, and nothing bad happened on those days. In fact, you could say some good happened.
BUT...there is a type of AT hiker (I'd hope a minority) who starts to depend on or at least seriously look forward to it because it happens so many places along the AT in GA, NC, TN, and VA every March, April and May. They then start to adopt a kind of entitlement mentality which we can see has been detrimental both on-Trail and in nearby trail towns when their every whim isn't catered to. Too much of a good thing in my opinion.
There probably isn't a good way to regulate this, and it probably shouldn't be regulated even if there was.
But here's an idea . . . if the people and organizations providing the big hiker feeds, or leaving food and drinks trailside, would recognize that their unselfish acts do have some unintended consequences--and just voluntarily cut back it might help. If you put on a hiker feed every year for a week, maybe cut back to every second or third year. Or cut back the number of days to just a couple. People who leave out coolers could stagger their "gifts" more. Those people and groups in the same region who know each other could maybe get together and work out a schedule.
On the off-years when a group isn't putting on a feed, they could contact the local maintaining trail club and offer to take on a special project for them instead. That, as much or more than free food, benefits hikers too.
With the "new" TM less prevalent, and hikers experiencing it less (and needing to be more self sufficient) it might not foster that anger and attitude we see more of each year when they don't always feel the "magic."
Sojourner 70
02-07-2016, 19:25
Thr Fontana Hilton is the hiker shelter at Fontana Dam, so named because it's the biggest and best with a heated rest room with showers!
Lone Wolf
02-07-2016, 19:28
walnut mtn. shelter is the best. holds 5
MuddyWaters
02-07-2016, 19:57
I gots no problem feeding hikers.
But it doesnt belong on the trail, or anywhere near the trail corridor.
It spoils the nature of hiking
A quiet parking lot with a couple parked cars is one thing to come upon at a remote road crossing.
A party with 10 people there drinking beer and barbecueing, is something else.
The ATC is remiss in not working to get rid of this stuff.
Same goes for cooler and items left abandoned. On most national forest land, its even illegal to do so.
squeezebox
02-07-2016, 20:22
Thank you! We meet many grateful hikers, and our goody bags (prepackaged only) always disappear from the hiker boxes at the NOC quickly!
Have you ever done any trail maintenance, or is this only about you ego? 98% of the fundalmentalist christians I've ever met don't care about other peoples needs or opinions. Bring a shovel or ax instead. please
Have you ever done any trail maintenance, or is this only about you ego? 98% of the fundalmentalist christians I've ever met don't care about other peoples needs or opinions. Bring a shovel or ax instead. please
One on hand you make a general statement that 98% of a group doesn't care about other peoples opinions and then on the other hand you demand that this group must do trail maintenance instead of allowing them to participate in the trail in their own way. Brings to mind an old saying "practice what you preach".
You're talking about a group of elderly ladies (with all due respect to the ladies!) who are widows. I don't think they should be expected to go out on the trail and swing an ax! In looking at their Facebook page it appears that they do a lot for their community.
My opinion, as long as they do there hiker feed in a public parking area, clean up afterwards (I'll bet they take hiker's trash too and pick up the lot too) and don't force their opinions on others then it's OK.
I've come across a few hiker feeds and I always thankful for the offer.
We are not squashing debate, rather asking people to politely go into the appropriate place on this website to have a debate. You don't post Colorado Trail shuttle questions on the Appalachian Trail shuttle forum by any chance? Same concept.
I agree with Mags here. There are appropriate places to debate and then there are places to keep your comments to yourself, especially in designated areas.
Seems fair to me. I think part of the problem may be that people click on the what's new icon, see a subject line in the list of threads and jump into the fray without looking at where the message was originally posted.
Offshore, This has caught me off guard more than once myself. I don't have a suggestion to make it better, maybe I just need to pay attention more.
Son Driven
02-07-2016, 22:21
Location Location Location the Troutdale hostel has a tradition of doing a hiker feed. The week after Trail Days! Troutdale is a couple miles off trail from Dickies gap. They have a nice pavilion, Pastor Ken presents a nice message in regards to my favorite hiker Jesus Christ. No alchol is allowed. The AT is a body, mind, and spiritual experience for many, and an opportunity to fellowship, and tap into ones spiritual dimension is part of the experience.
One Half
02-07-2016, 23:35
I bet most of the critics wouldn't pass up an ice cold soda on a hot day.
Better would be lots of water, especially on hot days, and when water sources might be scarce.
Sojourner 70
02-08-2016, 03:20
One on hand you make a general statement that 98% of a group doesn't care about other peoples opinions and then on the other hand you demand that this group must do trail maintenance instead of allowing them to participate in the trail in their own way. Brings to mind an old saying "practice what you preach".
You're talking about a group of elderly ladies (with all due respect to the ladies!) who are widows. I don't think they should be expected to go out on the trail and swing an ax! In looking at their Facebook page it appears that they do a lot for their community.
My opinion, as long as they do there hiker feed in a public parking area, clean up afterwards (I'll bet they take hiker's trash too and pick up the lot too) and don't force their opinions on others then it's OK.
I've come across a few hiker feeds and I always thankful for the offer.
Thanks, Don. You are very perceptive and understanding. Sounds like the only axe squeezebox uses is to grind against well-meaning folks he knows nothing about.
stumpknocker
02-08-2016, 06:43
Thanks to all for the enlightening discussion on hiker feeds and trail magic. I may have posted under the wrong title of hiker feed. This is our 5th year to do Trail Magic in the Smokies. We have paid $150 dollars in the past to pass out goody bags at Newfound Gap, a few hours on one day, observing all the necessary red tape and following all the safety and security rules. We are big on bottled water and green tea as well as sodas; We put only prepackaged food in our goody bags; We take care of all of our trash; We are also big on fresh fruit--which the GSMNPark approves all these things. The reason we choose Fontana Dam and Waterville picnic areas is because they are public areas off or close to the trail. We did do one worship service on a Sunday and the half dozen people who stayed enjoyed themselves, and the other half left for a town visit after freely partaking of our food and coming back for more food later along with fellowship. We love talking to the hikers and hearing their stories more than anything else. Many will stay and talk for hours--a real ministry boost to us. My husband died hiking in the Smokies. He also did parts of the AT and it was his heart's desire to do the the entire AT. Many of the women in my widow's group (we're Noah's Ark because we're all in the same boat) also enjoyed good times with their husbands in the Smokies. This is our special love for hikers that motivates us to do what we do (we have many other ministry projects); and it's the most exciting adventure of our yearly activities. I will pass on your concerns to my group.
I don't usually make comments on this website, but I wanted to thank you personally for what you do for hikers.
WhiteBlaze is about the only place you'll hear of anyone complain about, or state that they would pass by the kindness, food and beverages you offer.
I've been around lots of trail magic, both providing and gratefully accepting, and I have only seen one hiker pass it up.
Have you ever done any trail maintenance, or is this only about you ego? 98% of the fundalmentalist christians I've ever met don't care about other peoples needs or opinions. Bring a shovel or ax instead. please
Like I said above...I don't usually comment on WhiteBlaze, but this statement is one of the most ridiculous I've ever seen here.
Did you actually read what Sojourner 70 wrote before you made up your mind to chastise her for helping others out of the goodness of her heart?
One of you two have an ego problem....and it's not Sojourner 70.
Traveler
02-08-2016, 08:22
I gots no problem feeding hikers.
But it doesnt belong on the trail, or anywhere near the trail corridor.
It spoils the nature of hiking
A quiet parking lot with a couple parked cars is one thing to come upon at a remote road crossing.
A party with 10 people there drinking beer and barbecueing, is something else.
The ATC is remiss in not working to get rid of this stuff.
Same goes for cooler and items left abandoned. On most national forest land, its even illegal to do so.
This.
A simple solution is to place signs at road crossings for feeds located up or down the road a few hundred yards, allowing those who want to attend do so without disrupting others who don't have an interest.
Hiker feeds however may be inevitable from an anthropology perspective. Its an evolutionary process commonly seen across the landscape of human history where trail intersections with predictable traffic patters attract service providers. These can be altruistic people offering food to food "with a message", eventually leading to commercial enterprise establishing itself on the trail or corridor. I am hoping this is not the case but history provides the lesson if we can learn from it.
LittleRock
02-08-2016, 08:47
IMO, if you don't like hiker feeds just pass 'em by and don't take anything. But don't get angry at folks who are just out trying to do something good for the trail community.
Lone Wolf
02-08-2016, 08:52
IMO, if you don't like hiker feeds just pass 'em by and don't take anything. But don't get angry at folks who are just out trying to do something good for the trail community.
hard to pass 'em by when they set up right on the trail and are forced to walk through it.
Sojourner 70
02-08-2016, 09:02
Stumpkocker: Thank you for your kind words. Your respect and appreciation is what we experience on the trail and what keeps us coming back year after year. It's always a give and take and a win-win situation. My husband did plenty of trail maintenance when he was alive. Some people just don't know how brutal the trail can be. You will always have your elites who are fit and well prepared, and even they can come upon unexpected disaster. For the under prepared and under experienced it's even more critical that there be some measure of support and help. We enjoy doing our small part on a vast and complex undertaking by many adventurers.
Hard to pass up Mountain Crossings... or Hot Springs, or Damascus, or Duncannon.
Trail Days began the tradition of celebrating thru hikers, in a big-time, organized, regularly-scheduled event.
If ATC really want to do something about excessive trail magic maybe they'd considering working with Damascus to end that tradition to set an example. Just guessing here that that's not gonna happen.
I haven't actually witnessed these large-scale on-trail feasts, except for Trail Days, eons ago. Maybe a southern thing?
Lone Wolf
02-08-2016, 09:22
Hard to pass up Mountain Crossings... or Hot Springs, or Damascus, or Duncannon.
Trail Days began the tradition of celebrating thru hikers, in a big-time, organized, regularly-scheduled event.
If ATC really want to do something about excessive trail magic maybe they'd considering working with Damascus to end that tradition to set an example. Just guessing here that that's not gonna happen.
I haven't actually witnessed these large-scale on-trail feasts, except for Trail Days, eons ago. Maybe a southern thing?
Trail Days has run it's course. numbers are down the past 5 years or more
A simple solution is to place signs at road crossings for feeds located up or down the road a few hundred yards, allowing those who want to attend do so without disrupting others who don't have an interest.
There was a heated thread on the ALDHA facebook page about one of these signs not being properly removed after the event.
Hiker feeds however may be inevitable from an anthropology perspective. Its an evolutionary process commonly seen across the landscape of human history where trail intersections with predictable traffic patters attract service providers. These can be altruistic people offering food to food "with a message", eventually leading to commercial enterprise establishing itself on the trail or corridor. I am hoping this is not the case but history provides the lesson if we can learn from it.
There was a time when people took care to avoid commercializing the trail. Everything in America gets commercialized eventually. ATC Journeys magazine carries ads. It's the age of social media. Yesterday it was Scott Jurek, today it's the Hiking Viking. And if not "commercialized" then "sensationalized." Something that Red Bull or Breitling will want a fancy video of. Any way you cut it, that ship has sailed...
Son Driven
02-08-2016, 09:43
Some of the opinions on this thread reminds me of Fort Lauderdale, FL where I passed through 11/14. Their was a big media circus going on down at the beach where WWII Veteran Arnold Abbot was being arrested for publicly feeding the homeless. It would take an action like Fort Lauderdale, from every jurisdiction along the AT making it illegal to feed hikers. If our country ever gets to the place where private citizens are no longer allowed to freely give to sojourner's who cross their paths we are truly a lost nation. I think it was Adolf Hitler who attempted to wield this kind of control over the people of Germany.
colorado_rob
02-08-2016, 09:49
Interesting thread.... As usual on WB, something relatively benign gets emotional. I must be the unluckiest AT hiker out there as I always somehow missed the big feeds by a day or two. I would have enjoyed them. I do agree they maybe get a tad big and "out of control".
But to badmouth simple, manned trail magic, like folks parked at a road crossing with their tailgate open full of snacks and drinks? Downright weird. I sure appreciated those kind folks sitting with their table of goodies at a road crossing here and there.
Weirdest trail magic: handing out cigarettes and moonshine somewhere in NC/TN....
Best trail magic: that's easy, an ice cold beer!
Runner up best trail magic: A juicy orange! Yummy... actually, that one is tied with the ice cold beer
Third place: Sodas! don't care which brand/flavor, sugar and water. On the trail, how can that be bad? I have a soda a month in "real life", but on the trail........
So, thank you trail magic people!
Traveler
02-08-2016, 09:52
Some of the opinions on this thread reminds me of Fort Lauderdale, FL where I passed through 11/14. Their was a big media circus going on down at the beach where WWII Veteran Arnold Abbot was being arrested for publicly feeding the homeless. It would take an action like Fort Lauderdale, from every jurisdiction along the AT making it illegal to feed hikers. If our country ever gets to the place where private citizens are no longer allowed to freely give to sojourner's who cross their paths we are truly a lost nation. I think it was Adolf Hitler who attempted to wield this kind of control over the people of Germany.
A little perspective may be in order. Feeding people on vacation is not comparable to feeding homeless people and the issues that can create in an urban environment, nor is advocating an alternative opinion to how hiker feeds are managed akin to being Hitler-esque.
Point remains, it may be an inevitable creep of service conveyance and commercialism that humans have a common history of. The point is not necessarily if it should be done or not, but how it should be done if people want to engage in that activity.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 10:10
All I can suggest is not to be stupidly helpful. Don't be selfishly helpful. It's great when people are able to spontaneously help each other. However, at some point, you're not helping out hikers, rather you're leeching off of them to promote your cause. At some point you're harming hikers by ruining the experience through your well intentioned, yet poorly executed deeds. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, so it's said.
I will actively avoid crowds, hiker feeds, annoying people trying to save my soul, parties, salesmen, commercial interests handing out free samples. I will actively avoid this hiker feed.
I go on the trail to experience nature. Your well-intentioned "help" ruins my experience. For a few hours, or even a few minutes I can't take a moments rest at a shelter, because you've created a traffic jam.
It's touching that your husband loved nature, and that you keep his memory by chatting with hikers. That's a lovely thing. I'd even love to discuss this further with you, preferably in a different thread. You can even do that on these message boards and join our online community talking about hiking.
You can also chat with us on person, on the trail. Walk around a section of the trail at your own pace and just chat with people who seem interested in talking. That friendly smile, wave, maybe a few minute's conversation might be far more of a trail magic moment that a hiker remembers long afterwards.
Leave the rest of the distractions at your church. Better yet, commit your valuable resources to a food bank, or the poor. Hikers are not needy. They're people with enough free time and funds to take a vacation. Don't confuse smelly and unshaven with actually needy. What you're doing now, is just contributing to the party atmosphere on the trail. Kind of a sad, pathetic, needy party, but a party all the same. If you have to set up a roadblock to get your magic, then it's probably more self serving than serving others. Ask yourself why you have to bribe people with goodies to get them to pause a moment.
Oh, and Welcome to White Blaze.
:Edited for grammar
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 10:25
Interesting thread.... As usual on WB, something relatively benign gets emotional. I must be the unluckiest AT hiker out there as I always somehow missed the big feeds by a day or two. I would have enjoyed them. I do agree they maybe get a tad big and "out of control".
But to badmouth simple, manned trail magic, like folks parked at a road crossing with their tailgate open full of snacks and drinks? Downright weird. I sure appreciated those kind folks sitting with their table of goodies at a road crossing here and there.
Weirdest trail magic: handing out cigarettes and moonshine somewhere in NC/TN....
Best trail magic: that's easy, an ice cold beer!
Runner up best trail magic: A juicy orange! Yummy... actually, that one is tied with the ice cold beer
Third place: Sodas! don't care which brand/flavor, sugar and water. On the trail, how can that be bad? I have a soda a month in "real life", but on the trail........
So, thank you trail magic people!
My best trail magic was chatting with an elderly couple on my way down a mountain. She was on oxygen, hiking against her doctor's orders. He wanted to make sure I was alright, and tell me about a few poorly marked trail sections. I turned around and walked with them for a few minutes, then continued on my way.
Trail magic for me, is purely in the mind of the recipient. You have to decide for yourself what has value, and what detracts from the experience. What's important to one hiker, has no value to another.
Some of the opinions on this thread reminds me of Fort Lauderdale, FL where I passed through 11/14. Their was a big media circus going on down at the beach where WWII Veteran Arnold Abbot was being arrested for publicly feeding the homeless. It would take an action like Fort Lauderdale, from every jurisdiction along the AT making it illegal to feed hikers. If our country ever gets to the place where private citizens are no longer allowed to freely give to sojourner's who cross their paths we are truly a lost nation. I think it was Adolf Hitler who attempted to wield this kind of control over the people of Germany.
You started out OK and went full-on Godwin in one paragraph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Son Driven
02-08-2016, 10:42
A little perspective may be in order. Feeding people on vacation is not comparable to feeding homeless people and the issues that can create in an urban environment, nor is advocating an alternative opinion to how hiker feeds are managed akin to being Hitler-esque.
Point remains, it may be an inevitable creep of service conveyance and commercialism that humans have a common history of. The point is not necessarily if it should be done or not, but how it should be done if people want to engage in that activity.
My point is that the attitudes are similar. We as a free society have the freedom to give of ourselves to others within the law. In order to enforce what is being advocated here it would take a Hitler kind of act to impose a law and impose it upon 14 states, and hundreds or thousands of jurisdictions. Much of the Appalachian Trail runs through impoverished communities, and so if some vacationers spend some money along the way, I do not see it as a bad thing. Remember these are hikers and can only buy what they are willing to carry.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 10:47
You started out OK and went full-on Godwin in one paragraph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I'm not sure he even started out alright. The feeding the homeless analogy failed from the start. Hikers, by and large don't have the same needs, issues and challenges that the homeless have. I feel like some people are taking away a false sense of pride for helping what superficially appears to be a homeless person.
::Edit for grammar (this was worth the price of the donation!)
Son Driven
02-08-2016, 10:48
You started out OK and went full-on Godwin in one paragraph.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
This is hilarious thank you for sharing the link, I learned something today.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 10:50
My point is that the attitudes are similar. We as a free society have the freedom to give of ourselves to others within the law. In order to enforce what is being advocated here it would take a Hitler kind of act to impose a law and impose it upon 14 states, and hundreds or thousands of jurisdictions. Much of the Appalachian Trail runs through impoverished communities, and so if some vacationers spend some money along the way, I do not see it as a bad thing. Remember these are hikers and can only buy what they are willing to carry.
Just stop with the Hitler analogy, it's flat out wrong. There are Federal laws, there are State laws, just because a law benefits some people, but you don't particularly like it does not make it Hitler like.
Offshore
02-08-2016, 12:02
\Much of the Appalachian Trail runs through impoverished communities...
Which is exactly why the hiker feeders are better off donating to local food banks if they really want to help. Very few thru hikers don't know where their next meal is coming from - not the case with a lot of homeless or working poor in Appalachia. Hyperbolic Hitler comparisons aside, you have every right to spend your money any way you want, just don't pretend a hiker feed is in any way a public service or done for the public good. Its a relatively inconsequential good deed at best and at worst a ruse for proselytizing.
Lone Wolf
02-08-2016, 12:08
it's disgusting the amount of food being fed to vacationers with packs full of food at some of these feeds
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 12:32
IMO, if you don't like hiker feeds just pass 'em by and don't take anything. But don't get angry at folks who are just out trying to do something good for the trail community.
hard to pass 'em by when they set up right on the trail and are forced to walk through it.
Some of the opinions on this thread reminds me of Fort Lauderdale, FL where I passed through 11/14. Their was a big media circus going on down at the beach where WWII Veteran Arnold Abbot was being arrested for publicly feeding the homeless. It would take an action like Fort Lauderdale, from every jurisdiction along the AT making it illegal to feed hikers. If our country ever gets to the place where private citizens are no longer allowed to freely give to sojourner's who cross their paths we are truly a lost nation. I think it was Adolf Hitler who attempted to wield this kind of control over the people of Germany.
My point is that the attitudes are similar. We as a free society have the freedom to give of ourselves to others within the law. In order to enforce what is being advocated here it would take a Hitler kind of act to impose a law and impose it upon 14 states, and hundreds or thousands of jurisdictions. Much of the Appalachian Trail runs through impoverished communities, and so if some vacationers spend some money along the way, I do not see it as a bad thing. Remember these are hikers and can only buy what they are willing to carry.
Not being snarky, but seriously, exactly what "good" are these folks doing for the hiking community? Hikers aren't starving, nor are they socially deprived, nor even homeless in a legal sense. They are on vacation. That these folks are being nice by giving out free food is certainly one possible description. But they are often doing so with the primary intent of attracting an audience for some personal reason. It's not truly done for the hikers - it's done for the providers. Perhaps that reason is just socialization. Perhaps that need is to evangelize, no matter how soft-sell or benign it may be. There is nothing inherently wrong in these activities - until they become so invasive as to infringe upon the rights of others.
Regarding those rights, one must look at the competing rights involved - in cases such as this, the right to feed people and create an assembly/crowd, and perhaps evangelize, vs. the rights of others. Those competing rights involve quiet enjoyment of private property and the right not to be subjected to public nuisance on public property. The use of public lands is regulated to try to achieve a balance between these competing rights. Just as with Abbott in Ft. Lauderdale, intentionally creating an event that draws large assemblies has a negative impact on the rights of some others. Regarding Abbott, property owners, business owners, and vacationers felt that the large homeless feeds infringed on their rights. They cited crowds, lack of providing sanitary facilities, panhandling, harassment of vacationers, negative impact on business, etc. All reasonable complaints. The city attempted to provide several alternate nearby sites to try to achieve a balance between the two competing sides, all of which Abbott rejected, which made many feel that feeding the homeless had become secondary to his making a political statement.
I see a similar situation regarding hiker feeds, minus the actual homeless aspect. Obviously some hikers feel that hiker feeds create a public nuisance that detracts from their enjoyment of public lands. There is a balance to be struck. Finding that balance means that both sides must be willing to compromise. To that end, I think we must to a great degree look at the intent of why the AT exists, which is ultimately that it is a wilderness trail experience. I can't in good conscience complain about feeds that happen off the trail. People on both sides of the food table have the freedom to do as they choose. And acts such as leaving water/soda at crossings, picking up hikers at crossings or directing them to feeds off the trail, etc. are pretty unobtrusive. But IMO, when you set up a feed on the trail itself, one that I can't avoid, it becomes an intrusion on the intent and purpose of the trail.
colorado_rob
02-08-2016, 12:48
Not being snarky, but seriously, exactly what "good" are these folks doing for the hiking community? Hikers aren't starving, nor are they socially deprived, nor even homeless in a legal sense. They are on vacation. That these folks are being nice by giving out free food is certainly one possible description. But they are often doing so with the primary intent of attracting an audience for some personal reason. It's not truly done for the hikers - it's done for the providers. Perhaps that reason is just socialization. Perhaps that need is to evangelize, no matter how soft-sell or benign it may be. There is nothing inherently wrong in these activities - until they become so invasive as to infringe upon the rights of others.
blah, blah, blah.....
You're right. Seriously snarky.
It's (trail magic) just some cool folks hanging out by the trail giving out goodies. Sure, it makes them feel good. Makes me feel good to make them feel good. I always chat with these folks, never once felt in any way preached to. They were enthralled by trail stories and talk. Good folks. Keep it up! (not that trail magic folks surf WB)
You feel your rights are infringed upon if you cross a road and there's some dude is cooking some brats on a grill and handing out sodas? And by the way, there are cars and trucks zooming by, not a pristine wilderness experience place anyway, is it? Get serious. Or actually, get less serious.
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 12:58
You're right. Seriously snarky.
It's (trail magic) just some cool folks hanging out by the trail giving out goodies. Sure, it makes them feel good. Makes me feel good to make them feel good. I always chat with these folks, never once felt in any way preached to. They were enthralled by trail stories and talk. Good folks. Keep it up! (not that trail magic folks surf WB)
You feel your rights are infringed upon if you cross a road and there's some dude is cooking some brats on a grill and handing out sodas? And by the way, there are cars and trucks zooming by, not a pristine wilderness experience place anyway, is it? Get serious. Or actually, get less serious.There are obviously differing opinions. The AT was never a pristine wilderness in most sections, something I've stated in the past and agree with you on. But it is supposed to provide that illusion or experience. Lots of things detract from that experience already - most notably overuse in some areas during certain seasons. But does that make it okay to simply allow more without any end in sight? Where exactly should a line be drawn?
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 12:58
You're right. Seriously snarky.
It's (trail magic) just some cool folks hanging out by the trail giving out goodies. Sure, it makes them feel good. Makes me feel good to make them feel good. I always chat with these folks, never once felt in any way preached to. They were enthralled by trail stories and talk. Good folks. Keep it up! (not that trail magic folks surf WB)
You feel your rights are infringed upon if you cross a road and there's some dude is cooking some brats on a grill and handing out sodas? And by the way, there are cars and trucks zooming by, not a pristine wilderness experience place anyway, is it? Get serious. Or actually, get less serious.
You blah blah blah'd yourself out of understanding his point. He talked about balancing the rights of competing users. He never stated his rights were more important than anyone elses rights.
You blah blah blah'd yourself out of understanding his point. He talked about balancing the rights of competing users. He never stated his rights were more important than anyone elses rights.
You have twice as many posts on this thread as the #2 poster and you complain of too many words?
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 13:06
You have twice as many posts on this thread as the #2 poster and you complain of too many words?
No, I was referring to his use of "blah blah blah" to discount an entire paragraph of 4eyedbuzzard's thoughtful post. Words make more sense in their surrounding context.
I have an injured foot, I'm retired, I can't hike, so I'm stuck indoors commenting too much. I'm fully aware of this. :(
TexasBob
02-08-2016, 13:35
Here is what the trail is like according to people here on Whiteblaze:
There will be so many people hiking that it will be like waiting in line outside a Walmart for the Black Friday store opening, there will be 50 people at each shelter, you have climb over mounds of human excrement each marked with a toilet paper flag, rats and vermin will attack you if you dare to stay in a shelter and every 100 feet someone will assault you with hotdogs and a sermon. It wasn't that way in 2008 and I doubt it will be in that way in 52 days when I start my second attempt.
aruthenb
02-08-2016, 13:59
HYOH, if you don't condone it, keep moving. Just as the trail has become more popular, so have those wanting to help hikers. It is simple supply and demand, if hikers were not stopping, those offering would stop coming. Every hiker has tough days where a cold soda and something to eat can turn their entire day around.
When they start running power to shelters and adding vending machines, you can start to worry.
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 14:01
Here is what the trail is like according to people here on Whiteblaze:
There will be so many people hiking that it will be like waiting in line outside a Walmart for the Black Friday store opening, there will be 50 people at each shelter, you have climb over mounds of human excrement each marked with a toilet paper flag, rats and vermin will attack you if you dare to stay in a shelter and every 100 feet someone will assault you with hotdogs and a sermon. It wasn't that way in 2008 and I doubt it will be in that way in 52 days when I start my second attempt.But if you believe ATC's stats are at least somewhat accurate, there will be twice as many, or more, hikers starting the trail than you experienced in 2008. You'll be at the tail end of the bubble, so perhaps you'll make note of the impact on the trail as well. It would be interesting to read your journal or reports if you choose to post them. http://www.appalachiantrail.org/2000-milers
colorado_rob
02-08-2016, 14:17
No, I was referring to his use of "blah blah blah" to discount an entire paragraph of 4eyedbuzzard's thoughtful post. Words make more sense in their surrounding context.
I have an injured foot, I'm retired, I can't hike, so I'm stuck indoors commenting too much. I'm fully aware of this. :(I guess I was a little Snarky myself (also a tad infirmed right now...) but I think I understood his post. My point was his post was TOO thoughtful, on a very simple (IMHO) subject, discussing "rights" about hikers w.r.t. trail angels? We all just think differently! PYOP !
colorado_rob
02-08-2016, 14:18
Ooops... I also meant to apologize for my snarkitude.
Some of you seem to assume that all hiker feeds are connected to a church. I do a little cook out near Antietam shelter just inside PA every year. I do it because I like to pay back the kindness others showed me on the trail. Hamburgers on the grill, feel free to walk by if you like.
WingedMonkey
02-08-2016, 14:37
When they start running power to shelters and adding vending machines, you can start to worry.
It had already started.
With the help of the ALDHA, Waynesboro Virginia has installed a solar powered charging station on a shelter at the edge of town.
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 14:39
In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have used the words "rights", but rather experience. I did so because of the example given about Arnold Abbott and the Ft. Lauderdale homeless feeds which were more a legal/political issue.
BTW, I certainly don't hate those who feed hikers. It isn't the downfall of civilization - or perhaps more aptly the escape from civilization - as we know it. But I do think that many should be more honest with themselves regarding the motivation. It's okay to do things for others if it makes you feel good. Or to simply spend some time supporting them and sharing in their adventure. No problem. But I kind of reject the notion that hikers need to be fed, anything, nutritionally, socially, spiritually, or otherwise. They may, and likely many do, enjoy it. But there is no true need except in the minds of the providers.
And FWIW, I think that hiker feeds are far down the list of issues that need to be addressed regarding the AT. The overuse in the Springer Fever season is a far more pressing issue.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 14:43
Some of you seem to assume that all hiker feeds are connected to a church. I do a little cook out near Antietam shelter just inside PA every year. I do it because I like to pay back the kindness others showed me on the trail. Hamburgers on the grill, feel free to walk by if you like.
Until recently I was a volunteer driver for the elderly in my town. I had to quit because of the expense and the time spent caring for my own father. Some of the people really needed the service, for groceries, for doctors visits out of town, etc. Some were rich and could have hired a driver, some didn't want to impose on their children, a lot of them just wanted someone to talk to.
I didn't really do it for them however, it was pure selfishness on my part. Not all selfishness is bad. That said, I don't loiter on the town green and offer to help out every gray haired person passing by.
colorado_rob
02-08-2016, 14:46
It had already started.
With the help of the ALDHA, Waynesboro Virginia has installed a solar powered charging station on a shelter at the edge of town.On a slightly more humorous note, did any body stay in the shelter, I think the one just south of Hiwasee (deep gap?), and see the 110 volt outlet on the interior wall? It wasn't hooked up to anything, just a nice dual-outlet sitting there.... hikers were plugging their phones in, it was kinda humorous.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 14:51
On a slightly more humorous note, did any body stay in the shelter, I think the one just south of Hiwasee (deep gap?), and see the 110 volt outlet on the interior wall? It wasn't hooked up to anything, just a nice dual-outlet sitting there.... hikers were plugging their phones in, it was kinda humorous.
Nice!
33595
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 14:55
On a slightly more humorous note, did any body stay in the shelter, I think the one just south of Hiwasee (deep gap?), and see the 110 volt outlet on the interior wall? It wasn't hooked up to anything, just a nice dual-outlet sitting there.... hikers were plugging their phones in, it was kinda humorous.No, but I've heard of it. Hopefully it was a GFCI with outdoor cover, you know, just to be up to NEC and such. :D [If you're going to pull a practical joke, ya gotta be professional about it.]
lonehiker
02-08-2016, 15:00
In 08 I don't remember a large number of "hiker feeds". I only actually participated in two. I suppose it is just a matter of timing. The best trail magic I experienced was being put up in a couples' house (with 8 other hikers) for 4 days. Five of us, all strangers, started the same day. They drove around to various intersections to pick us all up. They had a magic refrigerator. Every time I opened the door it was fully stocked with beer. I have since met them a couple of times in CO and we have hiked a few 14ers together. Have a friend for life.
Personally if I lived near a long-distance hiking trail I would provide a little trail magic in the form of pop, snacks, garbage, etc. Wouldn't particularly care if a few cyber hikers took offense to it...
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 15:44
In 08 I don't remember a large number of "hiker feeds". I only actually participated in two. I suppose it is just a matter of timing. The best trail magic I experienced was being put up in a couples' house (with 8 other hikers) for 4 days. Five of us, all strangers, started the same day. They drove around to various intersections to pick us all up. They had a magic refrigerator. Every time I opened the door it was fully stocked with beer. I have since met them a couple of times in CO and we have hiked a few 14ers together. Have a friend for life.
Personally if I lived near a long-distance hiking trail I would provide a little trail magic in the form of pop, snacks, garbage, etc. Wouldn't particularly care if a few cyber hikers took offense to it...An interesting article and comments regarding frequency, and timing, of hiker feeds in 2010 from Guthook. http://www.guthookhikes.com/2014/04/more-thoughts-on-trail-magic.html
Son Driven
02-08-2016, 16:24
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.
Puddlefish
02-08-2016, 16:48
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.
It's basic US Government. House/Senate with checks and balances. They entrust the power to make such decisions to an agency in the executive branch in charge of National Parks. Any concerns are subject to judicial review. It's a wonderful system of checks and balances designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority.
Nothing here is remotely Hitler like, who functioned with a scary combination of centralized power in his hands and his ability to rile a majority of citizens to crush the rights of the minorities.
But, absolutely no one has brought up the suggestion that hiker feeds be banned by law, no one. That's a straw man of your own invention. People are simply freely stating their opinions. I'm just baffled how and why you'd equate any US Federal law/potential law to a dictatorship. They pass laws every day that annoy someone or another, it's nothing personal, it's just what any government does.
Son Driven
02-08-2016, 16:59
The majority of hiker feeds exist of land that is under federal jurisdiction. Like the one I participated with at the Troutdale Baptist Church 2.6 miles fro Dicky Gap. About 80 hikers accepted shuttle rides from and back to the trail. They knew that they would be receiving food from th Church leaders, so those who see harm in this type of activity can simply say no thank you, and continue on up to Partnership shelter, catch a ride and make a nuisance of themselves in the Town of Marion. As a side not on several occasions we had hikers come into our hostel with no food or money, and where basically homeless sojourners living on the AT.
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.
It's not going to happen. Relax.
4eyedbuzzard
02-08-2016, 20:41
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.Yep. So we are basically a dictatorship away from this coming to pass. You probably shouldn't worry.
But, absolutely no one has brought up the suggestion that hiker feeds be banned by law, no one. That's a straw man of your own invention. People are simply freely stating their opinions.Yeah, that's pretty much the extent of it.
The majority of hiker feeds exist of land that is under federal jurisdiction. Like the one I participated with at the Troutdale Baptist Church 2.6 miles fro Dicky Gap. About 80 hikers accepted shuttle rides from and back to the trail. They knew that they would be receiving food from th Church leaders, so those who see harm in this type of activity can simply say no thank you, and continue on up to Partnership shelter, catch a ride and make a nuisance of themselves in the Town of Marion. As a side not on several occasions we had hikers come into our hostel with no food or money, and where basically homeless sojourners living on the AT.The feed you mention was somewhere not on the AT itself, so I don't understand your concern as it relates to on-trail feeds. But I don't quite understand why those who might choose to forego the shuttle and church feed, and go into Marion on their own, would necessarily make nuisances of themselves. They don't seem to be either/or events. I'm just guessing that one could do any combination of the three - go/not go to feed, go/not go to Marion, make/not make nuisance of themselves.
"Homeless sojourners" as you call them are a group unto their own. They aren't hikers - at least not anymore. Hikers don't live out of hiker boxes, beg food/money, camp out long term in shelters, or worse - steal from hikers or town businesses. But homeless and broke people often do, out of survival necessity. I don't dismiss their plight. I feel sorry for them. They need help. But the AT isn't a good place to fix the kinds of problems these people have. And just sending them on their way with a full belly doesn't help solve their problems. That said, if you do run into some of these people, and can get them the help they need, that's a really good thing.
It seems to me that the AT has developed several subcultures in recent years, one being the hiker feed. I don't know the motivations of those who initiate a feed but I think a large number are former thru hikers who want to "give back to the trail." I think others feel a strong attraction to the trail and want to share in the thru hiker experience because perhaps they cannot. By doing a hiker feed they can connect with hikers and share their hike.
Sojourner 70
02-09-2016, 06:02
The majority of hiker feeds exist of land that is under federal jurisdiction. Like the one I participated with at the Troutdale Baptist Church 2.6 miles fro Dicky Gap. About 80 hikers accepted shuttle rides from and back to the trail. They knew that they would be receiving food from th Church leaders, so those who see harm in this type of activity can simply say no thank you, and continue on up to Partnership shelter, catch a ride and make a nuisance of themselves in the Town of Marion. As a side not on several occasions we had hikers come into our hostel with no food or money, and where basically homeless sojourners living on the AT.
It's a fair and serious observation that there are indeed some homeless and or freeloader types on the trail--even criminally prone individuals-- that requires circumspect safety awareness. The GSMNP taught us this need for precaution by their rules and regulations in approving our applications for trail support in the Park. Our tax dollars at work providing real protection; I am truly thankful for the National Park Service.
Traveler
02-09-2016, 06:57
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.
You really are hung up on the dictator thing, perhaps some therapy for PTSD from the Ventura years may be helpful?
The AT is a unique parcel of property. Due to the NPS management of the trail corridor, it falls under the NPS regulatory landscape that has provisions and prohibitions for a wide variety of activities. Quoting chapter and verse is not something I am really not interested in doing, suffice to say you don't see hiker feeds at road crossings in National Parks much. The NPS can yield to local regulations concerning the preparation and serving of food, health and hygiene issues, proper disposal of fats, oils, and grease, proper refrigeration temperatures, proper cooking temperatures, and a host of other food related codes at the Federal, State, County, and local levels.
So, the regs are already in place that can impact feeds. No dictators were harmed in the formulation of this text.
Offshore
02-09-2016, 08:36
Ok how would one go about writing, and enforcing a ban on hiker feeds that goes through 14 states, and a multitude of county's and municipalities? It would take an act of a dictator to implement such a law.
Give your dictator fetish a rest. What type of law can span states, counties, and municipalities? A federal law (see, not so hard...), and since the AT is a national scenic trail administered by the National Park Service, its subject to federal law.
Starchild
02-09-2016, 08:54
Hiker feeds/trail magic is one of the more pure form of human kindness, things we should be practicing everywhere. Giving to the poor does not mean just giving to the chronically poor, but the poor at the moment, and at the moment we are rich and can give easily and painlessly and really make a difference in someone's life. A hiker is poor in the basics of human society, it is a voluntary state to be rich in other things, namely life experience, really living.
In trail magic there is usually a exchange that benefits both parties, the trail angel can easily give food that would not be practical to bring on trail for the hiker, in that the hiker is elevated by human kindness and the trail angel is also enhanced by receiving stories of life on the trail. This in general is a very pure form of giving and receiving, rich giving to the poor on both ends, and both benefiting and taking that good will forward.
It is also uncluttered by things like verified charities and public opinion of how one should give, what is appropriate to give and how, it is freely given of the heart which is the most valuable giving we can do as humans.
Yes to mention some (few) do have other motives, such as church groups, but even with that, the trail angels sometimes are the ones who receive something missing in their lives, quite the opposite that the church authority may have planned.
As for the trail magic attracting too many people. that is only the opinion of those who like the trail to be a more solitary experience, which is no longer the AT which has evolved, but there are many more trail they can travel and get to experience their type of hiking.
Pedaling Fool
02-09-2016, 09:51
Hiker feeds/trail magic is one of the more pure form of human kindness, things we should be practicing everywhere. Giving to the poor does not mean just giving to the chronically poor, but the poor at the moment, and at the moment we are rich and can give easily and painlessly and really make a difference in someone's life. A hiker is poor in the basics of human society, it is a voluntary state to be rich in other things, namely life experience, really living.
In trail magic there is usually a exchange that benefits both parties, the trail angel can easily give food that would not be practical to bring on trail for the hiker, in that the hiker is elevated by human kindness and the trail angel is also enhanced by receiving stories of life on the trail. This in general is a very pure form of giving and receiving, rich giving to the poor on both ends, and both benefiting and taking that good will forward.
It is also uncluttered by things like verified charities and public opinion of how one should give, what is appropriate to give and how, it is freely given of the heart which is the most valuable giving we can do as humans.
Yes to mention some (few) do have other motives, such as church groups, but even with that, the trail angels sometimes are the ones who receive something missing in their lives, quite the opposite that the church authority may have planned.
As for the trail magic attracting too many people. that is only the opinion of those who like the trail to be a more solitary experience, which is no longer the AT which has evolved, but there are many more trail they can travel and get to experience their type of hiking.
Geez...it's just food...you make it sound as if these trail feeds are some sort of intense spiritual event. Personally, I see it rather as the going without these type of foods that are not practical to bring on the trail as the real spiritual experience of the trail. Deprivation is one of the special things about hiking the trail, both of food and people; I can go anywhere and be with people and eat these foods, nothing special about that.
Food deprivation and how that transformed my body was so much more meaningful to my life than eating a burger:rolleyes:
Puddlefish
02-09-2016, 13:08
I've often wondered what goes on inside the heads of the death by over-nurture crowd. Now I'm beginning to understand.
I once watched one of those extreme weight loss shows. There was an overweight kid, trying really hard to lose weight, to save his life, to learn about positive health habits. The second he got back home, his mother made him a steak and cheese sub for lunch, because it was his favorite, then she asked him if he wanted a second one, and the kid was like, "no, please no" and the mother went on to make him a second one.
Knowing that your actions is killing something, and justifying that action as an exchange of kindness is really bizarre to me. ... and Starchild's answer is go hike another trail, because I've already got my emotional hooks into this one.
At least two things are happening that AT purists resent. Too many people and too much partying. Both will probably increase until the trail is one long party of thousands of people who don't desire the solitude a wilderness experience can (perhaps should) provide. Thru hiking has been popularized by the stories and movies of those who have trekked the 2180+ miles and, people are becoming more and more disillusioned with life in the fast lane. I think that trail magic is, for the most part, way different than "partying". It was born out of the desire of regular folk who couldn't give the time, didn't have the inclination or didn't think they had the stamina to actually do a long hike. Perhaps they want(ed) to live vicariously thru those who had the resolve and time to do it. Others recognize(d) that many folks who do a thru hike don't have a deep wallet and a meal, snacks and beverages helped stave off hunger. But bottomline they all want(ed) to do something charitable for those who dared to endure the hardships of a thru hike.
Trail magic has grown as former hikers, knowing the incredible feeling of unsolicited and random acts of kindness, want to contribute. The intent of most (if not practically all) trail magic is about giving to others, putting a smile on the face of someone who has endured weeks of rain, sore feet, aching backs, and an endless number of minor disappointments and adversities. Coming upon a cooler of ice cold gatorade and/or beer on a day with blistering heat is a godsend. Hot dogs and burgers at a road-crossing is a 4-star meal!! Conversely, I agree the AT doesn't need to become one long concession stand. That said, it will continue to become more crowded and as more people complete the journey they will want to lend a hand to those coming along after them. So, bigger crowds on the trail and more unsolicited food & beverages are probably inevitable.
When I lived in Washington I used to solo hike all over the Cascades. I had several hikes where I could spend days never seeing another human being. Then someone published a book about Washington's best trails and within a few years my favorite hikes were so crowded I no longer enjoyed them...BUT, plenty of folks did. They didn't know what those trails had been like 5-10 years beforehand and I went north to Alaska to find solitude.
My point: We (those who are less than happy about the crowds and free food) don't own the AT and we can't dictate how others choose to enjoy it, tho one would hope that folks have a reasonable sense of respect for the environment and other hikers. THE CDT is still pretty primitive in many places and there are plenty of wilderness areas in Idaho and Montana where someone can hike for months and never see trail magic much less a boisterous party of hikers. The boundary lakes in MN are still primitive and Alaska has a multitude of opportunities to commune with nature without the unpleasantries of human hordes.
So, like Daniel Boone it is perhaps (unfortunately) time for those who want a purist experience to look elsewhere. The AT is too accessible to too many people who want to get away from the hustle of everyday life. We can not deny them their opportunity to get away even if they don't have the same perspective of what "getting away" means to those who came before them; especially for those who don't want that experience to change. I believe it was Benton Mackay's vision to build a trail so people could find relief from the burdens and emotional stress of urbanization and industrialization. The implementation of that vision has been a resounding success and the population of the US has more than tripled.
Happy trails...and peace!
bamboo bob
02-29-2016, 15:37
From time to time I've helped with a Hiker Feed that old timers have been doing for fifteen or so years. If you don't like it don't partake, walk on by. It's the ATC that has promoted the trail endlessly and now complains about how many hike, where they start, when people start, how they hike, and if someone feeds them. These professional trail managers are about increasing their mission and preserving their jobs.
TexasBob
02-29-2016, 19:53
At least two things are happening that AT purists resent. Too many people and too much partying. Both will probably increase until the trail is one long party of thousands of people who don't desire the solitude a wilderness experience can (perhaps should) provide. Thru hiking has been popularized by the stories and movies of those who have trekked the 2180+ miles and, people are becoming more and more disillusioned with life in the fast lane. I think that trail magic is, for the most part, way different than "partying". It was born out of the desire of regular folk who couldn't give the time, didn't have the inclination or didn't think they had the stamina to actually do a long hike. Perhaps they want(ed) to live vicariously thru those who had the resolve and time to do it. Others recognize(d) that many folks who do a thru hike don't have a deep wallet and a meal, snacks and beverages helped stave off hunger. But bottomline they all want(ed) to do something charitable for those who dared to endure the hardships of a thru hike.
Trail magic has grown as former hikers, knowing the incredible feeling of unsolicited and random acts of kindness, want to contribute. The intent of most (if not practically all) trail magic is about giving to others, putting a smile on the face of someone who has endured weeks of rain, sore feet, aching backs, and an endless number of minor disappointments and adversities. Coming upon a cooler of ice cold gatorade and/or beer on a day with blistering heat is a godsend. Hot dogs and burgers at a road-crossing is a 4-star meal!! Conversely, I agree the AT doesn't need to become one long concession stand. That said, it will continue to become more crowded and as more people complete the journey they will want to lend a hand to those coming along after them. So, bigger crowds on the trail and more unsolicited food & beverages are probably inevitable.
When I lived in Washington I used to solo hike all over the Cascades. I had several hikes where I could spend days never seeing another human being. Then someone published a book about Washington's best trails and within a few years my favorite hikes were so crowded I no longer enjoyed them...BUT, plenty of folks did. They didn't know what those trails had been like 5-10 years beforehand and I went north to Alaska to find solitude.
My point: We (those who are less than happy about the crowds and free food) don't own the AT and we can't dictate how others choose to enjoy it, tho one would hope that folks have a reasonable sense of respect for the environment and other hikers. THE CDT is still pretty primitive in many places and there are plenty of wilderness areas in Idaho and Montana where someone can hike for months and never see trail magic much less a boisterous party of hikers. The boundary lakes in MN are still primitive and Alaska has a multitude of opportunities to commune with nature without the unpleasantries of human hordes.
So, like Daniel Boone it is perhaps (unfortunately) time for those who want a purist experience to look elsewhere. The AT is too accessible to too many people who want to get away from the hustle of everyday life. We can not deny them their opportunity to get away even if they don't have the same perspective of what "getting away" means to those who came before them; especially for those who don't want that experience to change. I believe it was Benton Mackay's vision to build a trail so people could find relief from the burdens and emotional stress of urbanization and industrialization. The implementation of that vision has been a resounding success and the population of the US has more than tripled.
Happy trails...and peace!
A very thoughtful and even handed response. Thank you.
There is an allegorical story I once read about a woman who loved birds so much, that she decided to feed them. She put out a bird feeder and delighted in everyday seeing new species of birds. She varied her food offerings to attract different birds and she enjoyed them immensely. As time went on, the birds started moving into the neighborhood to more easily partake of the abundance. No longer would they have to search high and low for morsels of food and life became good...for the birds. Now the poor homeowner who so enjoyed the birds found that there is a downside to easy living. The bird feeders attracted birds who defecated all over her porch, windowsills and patio. She listened to them squawking and fighting all day long. Some birds were actually building nests in her eves and their droppings fouled her yard.
After awhile, the woman realized the only thing to do was to take away the bird feeders and let the birds fend for themselves. Although she loved the birds, she could no longer abide the messes they left behind.
So it goes with the trail. Quit feeding the damn hikers and they will find other woods to defecate into
Maybe she should have just put a little food out every once in awhile.
From time to time I've helped with a Hiker Feed that old timers have been doing for fifteen or so years. If you don't like it don't partake, walk on by. It's the ATC that has promoted the trail endlessly and now complains about how many hike, where they start, when people start, how they hike, and if someone feeds them. These professional trail managers are about increasing their mission and preserving their jobs.
I disagree with your assertion that the ATC is the bad guy here. It IS their mission to promote the trail for everyone to enjoy. It is also their mission to protect the trail for future users. I don't see a problem with the ATC trying to educate hikers to reduce impacts on the trail, to encourage voluntary registration to help manage, and promote alternatives to the traditional thru hike. As far as hiker feeds, I have no problem with them. I indulged when I was thru hiking. I think there are alternatives to hiker feeds if someone feels compelled to do trail magic. If only half the people willing to feed a hiker would volunteer for trail maintenance the trail would be much better off and all hikers would benefit.
squeezebox
03-01-2016, 12:19
I suggest the big hiker feeds not be called trail magic. And that feeding that many strangers might come under the juristiction of the local health dept.
Jack Tarlin
03-06-2016, 14:25
A few quick comments regarding magic and hiker feeds:
*There's nothing wrong with holding a picnic, cook-out, etc. in a Park (Bear Mountain would be a good example), a trailhead parking area, etc. You're not ruining anyone's wilderness experience by giving out treats in a parking lot.
*Large events, i.e. ones that would attract significant amounts of people and subsequent noise, should NOT be held in pristine
places on the Trail itself as they would detract from some people's enjoyment of the site (Big feeds at places like Antler Campsite
in Maine would be a good example).
*Coolers and other containers should not be left unattended, as they attract wildlife and become garbage cans. Do not leave a
container unattended unless you plan to come back for it THAT DAY! Likewise, never leave treats at a shelter or campsite unless
you KNOW you'll be back to clean up anything left behind. Actually, since it can and will attract critters, doing this even for a
short time is probably a lousy idea.
*Be prepared to be gracious and giving to anyone who comes by, and not just-thru-hikers.
*Use prudence if serving alcoholic beverages; be sure you're in a place where it is legal to do so. Never leave such items
unattended. If a sodden Boy Scout walks off a cliff after enjoying your largesse, you might end up in jail.
*Always bring sufficient garbage bags and leave your magic/feed site looking better than it was when you gut there. Invite
hikers to leave THEIR own garbage as it means less will end up discarded improperly.
*Lastly, and this goes out to the people who annually complain about Trail magic and Hiker Feeds: It's really simple. I don't
know where you're from, but in Boston, I was taught that if someone offered you something you weren't interested in, you looked
at them, smiled, and said "No thank you!" and then went about your business. Receiving and enjoying kindness from strangers
is entirely voluntarily, nobody's being forced to eat a burger or drink a can of soda. Trail magic, done responsibly, can be a
wonderful thing for those who wish to take part in it. Those not interested can simply keep walking. Nor really that complicated,
eh?
Traveler
03-07-2016, 08:16
Conversely, I would suggest the spectrum of opinion can be a learning tool for those interested in how to engage this activity with minimal impact on trail features, serving area(s), and trail users, as you have pointed out in your post. I've only been by a few of these, but I've not seen anyone speaking against the activity directly to those engaged in it. There were some comments about one of them a few hundred yards past the feed when people blocked the trail access at the road crossing. However, in a forum such as this, the issue will bring out those with contrary opinion. I doubt we have reached a level of intolerance in approving or dissenting opinion.
As an aside, how do those hiker feeds in Boston work out with those on the Heritage Trail?
Puddlefish
03-07-2016, 11:47
*Lastly, and this goes out to the people who annually complain about Trail magic and Hiker Feeds: It's really simple. I don't
know where you're from, but in Boston, I was taught that if someone offered you something you weren't interested in, you looked
at them, smiled, and said "No thank you!" and then went about your business. Receiving and enjoying kindness from strangers
is entirely voluntarily, nobody's being forced to eat a burger or drink a can of soda. Trail magic, done responsibly, can be a
wonderful thing for those who wish to take part in it. Those not interested can simply keep walking. Nor really that complicated,
eh?
In Boston, I was taught not to stand in doorways and chat, don't ever block the waitress stand at the bar, don't go through a yellow light if you can't clear the intersection and don't stroll three abreast and block the sidewalk. Also, the car with the nicer paint goes last, but that's not really applicable in this conversation.
Slo-go'en
03-07-2016, 13:28
Also, the car with the nicer paint goes last, but that's not really applicable in this conversation.
When I was driving around Boston in an old, beat up Furry III, I would dare the BMW's to try and go first :)
Traveler
03-08-2016, 08:38
When I was driving around Boston in an old, beat up Furry III, I would dare the BMW's to try and go first :)
Now THAT was a great car!