View Full Version : The Ultralight-with-a-Child Experiment
Casey & Gina
02-09-2016, 16:39
I backpack with my wife, and our 14-month-old son. This means she carries him in a (8lb heavy) backpack carrier, whose cargo room holds his necessities (diapers, clothing, etc.), while I end up carrying all the gear for two adults, along with food. We both have water bladders.
Well, with winter backpacking necessitating more and heavier gear, my pack size and weight have grown to epic proportions. I am really looking forward two lightening my load in the spring, and it got me wondering just how far we can shave things down.
Be warned, the following recent pictures of our packs may cause blindness to gram weanies:
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Combined weight we carried for our last trip? 130lbs! :eek: Haha, well anyways...let's move along. When we're not planning for winter, I think there's some ways we can lighten up considerably:
* No snowshoes or microspikes, lighter footwear
* No midlayer clothing
* 3-season tent
* Thinner/lighter sleeping quilt
* Only one set of CCF pads, or ditch them entirely in favor of air mattresses (while I don't like the idea of air mattress failure, it's less critical if it happens outside of winter cold, and worst case we can squeeze together onto one temporarily)
* Less cookware, and less comfort items in general that we don't really need if focused on hiking miles over all else
Of course, we are stuck with a 25-30lb child to carry. Our Deuter Kid Comfort 3 weighs 7lb 11oz, and it doesn't seem there are really any lighter options on the market without sacrificing cargo capacity or something else important (other carriers in the same class include the Osprey Poco Premium and Kelty Pathfinder 3.0). Another option is to use a soft structured carrier like an Ergobaby on the front, and a backpack on the back. This doesn't really seem to work out so well in practice though, since the straps conflict and the two things don't really work together well. Just for kicks, last night we packed full a Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil day pack and put that on in conjunction with the lightest structured carrier we could find, the Bitybean Tomato:
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Obviously this isn't backpacking-worthy gear, but it was an interesting experiment as it was surprising what all we could cram into the 20L pack. Stuffed in there is a tent that will fit us, 12 tent pegs; our baselayers, hats, jackets, and extra socks; a wood stove, cookware and spoons; 2 headlamps; our hygiene kit; rain gear; gear repair supplies, and some other necessities. The only notable exception was a sleeping quilt, and of course food, water, and baby supplies. It was enlightening to see just how small our essentials could pack up. If we replaced our CCF pads with XLites to reduce bulk, and got a lighter sleeping bag for 3-season use, I think fitting everything into twice the space may be feasible. Of course, we'd need a more sturdy pack but if we didn't need to carry the baby in it, it could be a 5 pounds lighter than the carrier. I previously had tried out a Vargo Ti-Arc pack, which seemed nice for a 30lb load, the ZPacks Arc Haul is another option that advertises ability to carry an extra 10lbs.
The main problems I see with carrying the baby in the front are:
* Conflicts between the backpack and the carrier, since they are not made to work together or be worn simultaneously
* No ventilation between the person carrying the baby and the baby, making for some sweaty hot times
* Possibly difficult to navigate on the trail with impaired visibility of where you are going to step
For the first, I wonder if a design concept similar to an Aarn pack would work. Not sure how to deal with the second or third problems.
But if something were possible, we could stand to reduce our overall weight by rather a lot, and when we have a second baby to carry and each have to carry one, this sort of arrangement seems preferable to two heavily-laden and overpacked frame backpack child carriers. Curious to hear any comments or suggestions - I'm happy to entertain any ideas!
You need a pulk. Put all your gear in the pulk and drag it along behind you. I guess I should mention it works better on snow and trails that aren't extremely steep. They even make them for children.
Must b other ways to carry a baby then a 8 lb thing . Modify a pack to carry both child and gear. 2 xtherm and a sit pad for child. EE quilts,8x10 tarp ,window film ground cloth.six moon designs closeout backpack can carry lots of weight with comfort and cheep.
Thom
I would think about cutting leg holes in the SMD pack ,packing gear below to form a comfy seat .
Thom
Brings me back to the days when my daughters were little hiking in the Whites. They had day packs with jackets and munchies and I was a pack mule. A few overnights like that made the AMC huts all the more affordable. Enjoy the moment.
Lynnette
02-09-2016, 18:12
HI - been there. My carrier weighed 3P empty - and I loved it. I have a front fanny pack with my water bottle, tp...Baby on back. we both fell with babies on the front and it scared us out of doing that again. It is important to read weather when taking little people : safety for them and you. Plan your hike so that you do not have to take tons of cold weather or wet weather gear for all. Hike that little person on the ground until it is nap time. Guess what! either you put him in his pack then or you make that your tent site. Pick a trail with this plan in mind and that it has a water source. It all slows down. You have seen the forest before. Baby hasnt. Its so wonderful to see things again like you are seeing them for the first time. About gear: Diapers are heavy coming and going. And you may be able to scrape and bury depending...If you hike in SNP, there are bear trash cans quite frequently. Baby doesnt need his heavy sippy cup. Just one wide mouth pbj jar to serve from not pack - the cheerios, yogurt covered raisins....One spoon. Just like you. Babies eat lots when in the woods. So you bring prepared food to instantly feed them. and some to cook when you do. Disney makes character separates clothing which have a coating on it which when exposed to dew and dampness dont instantly become wet and if you switch it out at night - put it under your sleeping bag kiddo doesnt need so many clothes. Suggest u stay with non inflatable rests bc u can open it wide to take a break w baby or he can nap on in or stand on it when u take his shoes off or change him on it. We loaded him with 40 pounds going out, which I could share if I HAD to.We always leave clothes, towel, food,water, diapers, wipes in the car for our return. When next baby came it went on the front of me and we switched trail types and went to base camp/hikes for while - about a year and half. After college, those babies of mine walked the AT end to end!
If you're going to go the baby in front and backpack on your back route I'd 1) get a lighter wt baby carrier. yes you might sacrifice some baby gear space going to a lighter wt carrier but you can save as much as 3 lbs on the carrier alone. Now transfer the baby's stuff to the back with your own kit to a UL backpack possibly a frameless model. Those bulky CCF ridgerests I would dispense with to a less bulky pad possibly a softer more flexible even foldable CCF pad. The bulk stored where it is at the top of the backpack creates a catching pt on low hanging branches, low overhead clearances, etc. Not what I'd want to risk in losing my balance carrying a 14 month old or younger. 2) all gear is multiple person usage. One quilt covers all of you, one shelter, one cook system, etc. 3) more than ever especially if you get to the situation where you're carrying two kids(GOD help you) your wife and you really really have to dial down the wt of your kits ie; apparel, food, etc. LOL. One thing I never weighed was baby diapers. Let us know how that works out. Maybe, by the time the second kiddie starts being carried the 14 month will be older and can do some walking by himself? He looks like a strong baby. 4) shorter distances w/ more camping and down time deeply scheduled If you're carrying a 14 month old child as well as much of your own kit how you avoid sweating is beyond me. I'd take it as a given and plan well.
I like Lynette's take on things. Plan your hikes that they aren't centered around winter or wet conditions or over strenuous terrain or elev profiles. And, if you do consider making it more into a camping trip rather than a hiking trip. As said, things SLOOOOW down with kids. let them walk some. Watch. Guide. Be patient. carry some but not all the time is my taking a young child into Nature scenario. Lighten up on personality. laugh. No hardcore shart.
squeezebox
02-09-2016, 18:25
Maybe take a day hike, or weekend without the baby once in a while, kinda like a date night. I hope when he's 20 he appreciates your efforts. Do bring a thermometer so you can check his body temp. just thinking about hypothermia.
I second the pulk sled. Also those baby carriers suck. My daughter was light but that thing made her feel like a ton, shifts the weight too far back. Also look at what you are taking. Cook kit can be one pot and very light. Do you really need all the layers? Didn't you just sell some monster Kelly pack? What does your tent weigh? Are you camping in heavy snow storms? If not light 3 season is fine.
damskipi
02-09-2016, 21:35
It's hard to tell from the pictures - could you fit a waist pack under the structured carrier? Or you could use one instead of the S2S pack. That could potentially add 10-20 liters of storage that is on your wife's hips instead of shoulders, as it is with the S2S pack. I wouldn't want a 25lb child and 20L of gear both pulling on my shoulders without hip support. Can the unstructured carrier be used on the back over a waist pack to eliminate the visibility and strap conflict concerns?
Alligator
02-09-2016, 23:45
In about a year your current baby will be too big to carry and will be walking. The speed change is like dropping out of hyperspace. This future 2 year old will lack any direction sense whatsever and will frequently be overtaken by snails. Consider a llama maybe and you might be able to carry two kids.
Ultralight is a good way to go though. Consider a teepee style tent, they work in the winter too. Tarps are another option. Big caveat is both do not restrict the child at night. Even with the teepee, a child can roll under the side wall in the middle of the night.
I carried our kids a lot.
We had three options, one was a shawl-type cloth (baby-sling) which I liked much when they were really young&small, but there was no way to carry a decent backpack in addition.
The next was a soft front-seat like in your picture, which my wife loved but I refused, due to overwhelming body heat. Also very limited wrt kids size, as soon as my chin hit the kids top of the head I was done with that forever.
Then we had different cradles, which I ended up putting inside my huge backpack (see Zombie Killer thread). That was fine for me, perfect for the kid, and we still could carry some extra stuff.
But finally we resolved to reduce the hiking ambition, we skipped having the Big Goal in mind, and went to focus on the level of exhaustion (my personal limit). We just did what I could do fine with the load of the child plus some stuff, always leaving some margin for troubles, errors and fails. I was in full responsibility not only for myself, but also for the kid (my wife didn't join me so much then, due to family chores and the other kids), and I absolutely put the kid's needs in the foreground.
The kid slept in the cradle most of the time, but that meant it was awake and lively at times when I wanted to rest. So I took it easy in walking (or skiing, as it was many times), set the goals really low, finally had some really great times with my kids outdoors, it was perfect for the kid too, and never before or after this kids-carrying time I had such strong legs again.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 11:26
It's hard to tell from the pictures - could you fit a waist pack under the structured carrier? Or you could use one instead of the S2S pack. That could potentially add 10-20 liters of storage that is on your wife's hips instead of shoulders, as it is with the S2S pack. I wouldn't want a 25lb child and 20L of gear both pulling on my shoulders without hip support. Can the unstructured carrier be used on the back over a waist pack to eliminate the visibility and strap conflict concerns?
"Soft Structured Carrier" refers to the sort that she is wearing in front in the picture, not the frame backpack carrier. It can be worn just as easily (and more comfortably in my opinion) in the back. They actually carry most weight on the hips as does a backpack with a hip belt. The one in the picture is certainly not the most comfortable, but it weighs only a half pound and we got it to carry along when we backpack, for use around camp. A 1-2lb carrier like an Ergobaby is much more comfortable and would be a better candidate for such a job. Not sure if a waist pack would fit underneath but it's definitely something to consider. Maybe even if something were sewn onto the carrier itself there.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 12:09
I carried our kids a lot.
The next was a soft front-seat like in your picture, which my wife loved but I refused, due to overwhelming body heat.
Yeah, it's fine for around town but I imagine hiking with the baby carried that way in the summer would be a lousy idea.
Then we had different cradles, which I ended up putting inside my huge backpack (see Zombie Killer thread). That was fine for me, perfect for the kid, and we still could carry some extra stuff.
Yeah, I actually tried stuffing a Kelty TC 2.0 down inside of a Kelty 50th Anniversary pack last night after your inspiration on that thread, but it wouldn't quite fit. Your older model cradle I think had less depth to it. I don't imagine that such a combination would carry any more comfortably than the frame carriers though, and I'm not sure I could really get any more cargo capacity out of it.
But finally we resolved to reduce the hiking ambition, we skipped having the Big Goal in mind, and went to focus on the level of exhaustion (my personal limit). We just did what I could do fine with the load of the child plus some stuff, always leaving some margin for troubles, errors and fails. I was in full responsibility not only for myself, but also for the kid (my wife didn't join me so much then, due to family chores and the other kids), and I absolutely put the kid's needs in the foreground.
The kid slept in the cradle most of the time, but that meant it was awake and lively at times when I wanted to rest. So I took it easy in walking (or skiing, as it was many times), set the goals really low, finally had some really great times with my kids outdoors, it was perfect for the kid too, and never before or after this kids-carrying time I had such strong legs again.
We are both really hoping to do a long-distance hike, despite the difficulty. I can agree that we both need some time off to get away from the "real world" for a while. We have gone as we are (minus winter gear) for about 100 miles of the AT locally so far, but the longest day was 17 miles. It's doable with this much weight but I guess I'm just curious how much we could manage to reduce it if we really tried.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 12:22
I second the pulk sled.
For winter use in the snow, I can see the value!
Cook kit can be one pot and very light. Do you really need all the layers? Didn't you just sell some monster Kelly pack? What does your tent weigh? Are you camping in heavy snow storms? If not light 3 season is fine.
Yes, we are camping in heavy snow storms (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116455-Winter-storm-Jonas). But that doesn't mean we'll be doing the same come spring, and I will not be lugging the 10lb tent along outside of winter. We have two lighter-weight tents - one that is more roomy with a large vestibule and double-wall at 5 pounds, and one that is more minimal (single-wall, no vestibule) but that we can fit in comfortably enough at 2 pounds. I didn't sell a monster Kelty pack, but I am looking for a particular rare one (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115227-WTB-Kelty-Ultra-Tioga). I have tried a lot of packs carrying 45+ lbs and so far the Kelty Super Tioga has performed the best. Certainly if I can lighten that load up then I could use a lighter pack, but it's actually 2-3 pounds lighter than some of the internal frame packs I tried so for the carrying capacity (75lbs on our last trip), isn't bad. Our winter weight (including the child and food and water) last trip was 130lbs, but in the warmer months it was around 90-100lbs.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 12:25
Maybe take a day hike, or weekend without the baby once in a while, kinda like a date night. I hope when he's 20 he appreciates your efforts. Do bring a thermometer so you can check his body temp. just thinking about hypothermia.
We do weekend hikes a lot, especially when I have a Monday or Friday off from work and we can get 2 nights out in on the deal. We are planning to do a long-distance hike this year though, hence why I'm contemplating ways to lighten things up. He's kept warm - in that picture he's wearing a regular clothing layer, a wool footie, and a down snow suit. We do keep tabs on how he's doing and are well-prepared in that respect. Fortunately, extra layers for a baby don't weigh all that much since they are small.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 12:35
If you're going to go the baby in front and backpack on your back route I'd 1) get a lighter wt baby carrier. yes you might sacrifice some baby gear space going to a lighter wt carrier but you can save as much as 3 lbs on the carrier alone. Now transfer the baby's stuff to the back with your own kit to a UL backpack possibly a frameless model. Those bulky CCF ridgerests I would dispense with to a less bulky pad possibly a softer more flexible even foldable CCF pad. The bulk stored where it is at the top of the backpack creates a catching pt on low hanging branches, low overhead clearances, etc. Not what I'd want to risk in losing my balance carrying a 14 month old or younger. 2) all gear is multiple person usage. One quilt covers all of you, one shelter, one cook system, etc. 3) more than ever especially if you get to the situation where you're carrying two kids(GOD help you) your wife and you really really have to dial down the wt of your kits ie; apparel, food, etc. LOL. One thing I never weighed was baby diapers. Let us know how that works out. Maybe, by the time the second kiddie starts being carried the 14 month will be older and can do some walking by himself? He looks like a strong baby. 4) shorter distances w/ more camping and down time deeply scheduled If you're carrying a 14 month old child as well as much of your own kit how you avoid sweating is beyond me. I'd take it as a given and plan well.
I think you're right on with the CCF pads. We find them comfortable and like that they can't fail, plus in wintertime you don't have to worry about catching so much growth. But in the warmer months I think I will relent to XLites or XTherms which pack up much smaller. We tried the foldable CCF's, but they really aren't any smaller than the rolled-up kind, just shaped differently, and less comfortable. Also they don't come in large sizes, which we need since the three of us share a single sleeping system of two large pads contained in a groundsheet and zips to our quilt (Feathered Friends Condor) and hoods. We can get another Condor with a higher temperature rating to lighten up the load and reduce bulk, while being compatible with the proven system we already use. Probably don't need to carry the hoods outside of winter either - hats and balaclavas may be sufficient. We use flat cotton diapers (2.7oz each) and carry about a dozen when backpacking. They are easy to wash in the backcountry with an Ultra-Sil Kitchen Sink (1.7oz). I have done some research and it seems that hemp will dry faster than cotton, so we will probably switch to that.
He actually just did his first walking last night, but I don't think that means he'll be ready to handle miles on the trail any time soon. ;)
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 12:43
we both fell with babies on the front and it scared us out of doing that again.
Ouch, scary! I am happy to report that neither of us has ever fallen during warmer months, and when I did fall somewhat recently it was due to ice and I landed on my bum. I like to think our balance is pretty good, but that is definitely a concern worth bearing in mind.
Baby doesnt need his heavy sippy cup. Just one wide mouth pbj jar to serve from not pack - the cheerios, yogurt covered raisins....One spoon. Just like you.
We don't use a sippy cup at all. He actually will drink water from the hydration bladder already, and feeding on the trail is not an issue using what we use ourselves. We don't carry anything extra just for him to eat or drink from.
Suggest u stay with non inflatable rests bc u can open it wide to take a break w baby or he can nap on in or stand on it when u take his shoes off or change him on it.
Yeah, that is a nice advantage of the CCF pads! But I figure I can use a tent footprint for the same purposes, even staking it down if we'll be taking a longer break.
After college, those babies of mine walked the AT end to end!
Woo hoo! Congratulations!
In summer you could modify a double jogging stroller to work like a pulk but with wheels, can also put a little gear in it.
Thats a lot of weight. There is a couple in alaska that travel with small kids. Erin and hig I think? Might be able to steel some ideas from them.
The super tioga is what I was thinking, for some reason I thought you were selling it.
For winter use in the snow, I can see the value!
Yes, we are camping in heavy snow storms (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/116455-Winter-storm-Jonas). But that doesn't mean we'll be doing the same come spring, and I will not be lugging the 10lb tent along outside of winter. We have two lighter-weight tents - one that is more roomy with a large vestibule and double-wall at 5 pounds, and one that is more minimal (single-wall, no vestibule) but that we can fit in comfortably enough at 2 pounds. I didn't sell a monster Kelty pack, but I am looking for a particular rare one (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/115227-WTB-Kelty-Ultra-Tioga). I have tried a lot of packs carrying 45+ lbs and so far the Kelty Super Tioga has performed the best. Certainly if I can lighten that load up then I could use a lighter pack, but it's actually 2-3 pounds lighter than some of the internal frame packs I tried so for the carrying capacity (75lbs on our last trip), isn't bad. Our winter weight (including the child and food and water) last trip was 130lbs, but in the warmer months it was around 90-100lbs.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 13:36
The super tioga is what I was thinking, for some reason I thought you were selling it.
Nah, I do have a 50th Anniversary pack that I'd like to sell though. Believe it or not the Super Tioga is the smallest of 3 Kelty packs I have, haha:
33620
If your'e going in summer, wouldn't be a DIY trailer a solution?
Of course a single wheeler, for the narrow trails you will walk.
Saw a slideshow of Christian Stangl's Atacama trip, he started building his trailer by dismanteling the wheels from his MTB.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 14:51
If your'e going in summer, wouldn't be a DIY trailer a solution?
Of course a single wheeler, for the narrow trails you will walk.
Saw a slideshow of Christian Stangl's Atacama trip, he started building his trailer by dismanteling the wheels from his MTB.
I don't think anything wheeled would work on the rocky AT, and elevation changes would be a bear.
If a MTB can do it a Trailer will work.
But sure you know the trail by own experience, while I'm just reading about it.
Also, a trailer is a question of personal preference - you may love it, or hate it.
We have a famous local guy here who walked around the world for about two-three years, who is actually hiking for a living now (giving classes and guided tours), and when he once tried out a buggy he never started to love this thing, he skipped it and preferred carrying any, even brutal heavy, load on his back over this buggy thing.
But still he gained lots of experience on this, and recommends a specific product: http://www.carrix.ch/harcarre.html
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 15:58
But still he gained lots of experience on this, and recommends a specific product: http://www.carrix.ch/harcarre.html
That actually looks pretty cool! The website is lacking though, without any idea of pricing or availability.
Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails. You can be ticketed. A skid instead of a wheel would be ok...but probably not very practical on many portions of the AT.
Casey & Gina
02-10-2016, 16:30
Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails. You can be ticketed. A skid instead of a wheel would be ok...but probably not very practical on many portions of the AT.
Thanks for confirming - I was thinking that was the case but wasn't sure where the line was drawn. It would be an interesting contraption for other environments though.
Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails...
I well understand and appreciate this rule.
What kind of load carrying animals are allowed on the trail?
Remember Nick Vanier + family doing an over-the-winter trip with horses?
http://nicolasvanier.com/portfolio/lenfant-des-neiges/
Seems like you are out of luck with pack animals too...with a few miles of exception.
http://appalachiantrail.org/docs/trail-management-policies/horses-and-pack-animals-1985.pdf?sfvrsn=2
Then I end up repeating myself:
Set up goals in means of time (like, "stay out on the trail for 14 days") instead of a fixed aim (like, hike from A to B within a given timeframe).
The Solemates
02-11-2016, 12:39
It isnt real often we go backpacking as a family of 5, but we do it a few times a year. Usually its me and the 1 or 2 older kids or me by myself. When we go with all 3 kids though I carry gear for everyone....thats right - 5 people. My pack usually weighs 70 lbf or so. My wife carries a child carrier that my youngest (sometimes) rides in. She's 2 so she rides a while, walks a while, etc. The only gear strapped to the child carrier is 1 sleeping bag. We hike less than 3-4 miles and we dont do much snow camping.
front carriers are for babies, and work great....but they do not do well once the child approaches a few months old.
Casey & Gina
02-11-2016, 13:12
front carriers are for babies, and work great....but they do not do well once the child approaches a few months old.
I think it actually depends a lot on the brand/model/design. My wife carries our son all the time for probably several hours each day, on both her front and back using the same soft structured carriers. She uses the following products:
* Boba 4G (http://www.boba.com/baby-carrier#Dusk)
* Lillebaby Original (http://lillebaby.com/baby-carriers/completetm/original)
* Obimama Custom Mei Tai (http://www.obimama.com/custom-mei-tai/)
All of these work great with our 25lb 14-month-old - the first two use Buckles to put on while the latter uses straps that you can tie in various manners. Carriers such as the Baby Björn are not nearly as comfortable and really don't work beyond a few months old.
Casey & Gina
02-17-2016, 17:49
...the three of us share a single sleeping system of two large pads contained in a groundsheet and zips to our quilt (Feathered Friends Condor) and hoods. We can get another Condor with a higher temperature rating to lighten up the load and reduce bulk, while being compatible with the proven system we already use. Probably don't need to carry the hoods outside of winter either - hats and balaclavas may be sufficient.
Just to follow this up, I weighed all the components the other night with a gram scale.
Feathered Friends custom Condor groundsheet - 490g
Feathered Friends custom Condor 0 - 1824g
Feathered Friends custom Condor Hoods - 175g each = 350g
Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil Compression Dry Sack L = 96g
Total: 2664g. Add in another 96g for a waterproof compression sack and you're just over 6lbs for everything needed for 3 people to stay warm with plenty of room for comfort down to a bit below 0 (tested down to 10 degrees), which isn't bad. A warmer weather bag and leaving the hoods behind would lighten the load up and reduce bulk considerably.
33690
You need these.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxMQEREPEhMVEBAWEBIRFRIVERUQFxAVFhYXFhgRFR gYHSggGBslGxYVITEhJSkrLi4uFyAzODMtNyouLisBCgoKDg0O GBAQGi0lIB8tMDctKy0tLSsuNy0tLTc3LTArKy0tLy0rLSsrKy 0tLS0tLS0rLS0tKy03LS0tLi0rN//AABEIAOUA3AMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAEAAQUBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAABwECBQYIBAP/xABDEAABAwIEAwUEBgcGBwAAAAABAAIDBBEFEiExBhNBByJRYX EUgZGhIzJCYoKSCBVysbLB8CQzRKLR8RZDUlODo H/xAAZAQEBAQEBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIEAwX/xAAhEQEBAAICAgIDAQAAAAAAAAAAAQIREiEDQTFRE2HRBP/aAAwDAQACEQMRAD8AnFERAREQEREBERAREQEREBEWJ4srDBQ1c zb52U0zm2NjmyHLY9NbaoNN4w45EU4hEghiZcudz2h0h6Dlta5 5AI8Wjf6ywg7S6cgAVDhJchxLZALa2t3dOn9baFwlh0Mjp6moB fFCActnP5j3E7gAkm48DutnxKSiMERdSPaJHPZZrLlpZ9bYXNv IX8l5ZeaY3WnT4/8APcseW9N04F4750gpZXc3NIWxTiaKa97kMeGNaW6C3ebe5Grt SJFXKIy0eIQujceW2aCZjhcHJzAfhYHRdXL0l3NufKcbZRERVB ERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERAREQEREBERAXwraVs0ckLxdkkbo3 Dxa4FpHwK 6IID4WMmHe2U74s9QHjMw2DXjvsDmjXQlu2ujmnqsriGOOY2L xtdEGhzXGCUNeXZe61hjtGRqbk6W9bYrtCxZ36ynEEmWNs2Zpc 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Or one of these.
http://images.hayneedle.com/mgen/master:RFI072.jpg?is=300,300,0xffffff&cvt=jpg
Or some of these.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRN8KlzUAR2gxcE_9aKOlRp59AkzTql1 nMKxIu39lmraZIg7Bnjsw
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTZrZKLos569yZCcpbcxQeUWT7IOBUdo pqNwE-kgZc_Qrw1UV3V
Just to follow this up, I weighed all the components the other night with a gram scale.
Feathered Friends custom Condor groundsheet - 490g
Feathered Friends custom Condor 0 - 1824g
Feathered Friends custom Condor Hoods - 175g each = 350g
Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil Compression Dry Sack L = 96g
Total: 2664g. Add in another 96g for a waterproof compression sack and you're just over 6lbs for everything needed for 3 people to stay warm with plenty of room for comfort down to a bit below 0 (tested down to 10 degrees), which isn't bad. A warmer weather bag and leaving the hoods behind would lighten the load up and reduce bulk considerably.
33690
That isn't bad at all. 6 pounds for the sleeping, I think you said 10 pounds for the tent, another 6 for a good size backpack is only 22lbs, what makes up the other 130 pounds you are taking?
Just Bill
02-18-2016, 11:34
I backpack with my wife, and our 14-month-old son. This means she carries him in a (8lb heavy) backpack carrier, whose cargo room holds his necessities (diapers, clothing, etc.), while I end up carrying all the gear for two adults, along with food. We both have water bladders.
Well, with winter backpacking necessitating more and heavier gear, my pack size and weight have grown to epic proportions. I am really looking forward two lightening my load in the spring, and it got me wondering just how far we can shave things down.
Be warned, the following recent pictures of our packs may cause blindness to gram weanies:
33607 33606
Combined weight we carried for our last trip? 130lbs! :eek: Haha, well anyways...let's move along. When we're not planning for winter, I think there's some ways we can lighten up considerably:
* No snowshoes or microspikes, lighter footwear
* No midlayer clothing
* 3-season tent
* Thinner/lighter sleeping quilt
* Only one set of CCF pads, or ditch them entirely in favor of air mattresses (while I don't like the idea of air mattress failure, it's less critical if it happens outside of winter cold, and worst case we can squeeze together onto one temporarily)
* Less cookware, and less comfort items in general that we don't really need if focused on hiking miles over all else
Of course, we are stuck with a 25-30lb child to carry. Our Deuter Kid Comfort 3 weighs 7lb 11oz, and it doesn't seem there are really any lighter options on the market without sacrificing cargo capacity or something else important (other carriers in the same class include the Osprey Poco Premium and Kelty Pathfinder 3.0). Another option is to use a soft structured carrier like an Ergobaby on the front, and a backpack on the back. This doesn't really seem to work out so well in practice though, since the straps conflict and the two things don't really work together well. Just for kicks, last night we packed full a Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil day pack and put that on in conjunction with the lightest structured carrier we could find, the Bitybean Tomato:
33609 33610
Obviously this isn't backpacking-worthy gear, but it was an interesting experiment as it was surprising what all we could cram into the 20L pack. Stuffed in there is a tent that will fit us, 12 tent pegs; our baselayers, hats, jackets, and extra socks; a wood stove, cookware and spoons; 2 headlamps; our hygiene kit; rain gear; gear repair supplies, and some other necessities. The only notable exception was a sleeping quilt, and of course food, water, and baby supplies. It was enlightening to see just how small our essentials could pack up. If we replaced our CCF pads with XLites to reduce bulk, and got a lighter sleeping bag for 3-season use, I think fitting everything into twice the space may be feasible. Of course, we'd need a more sturdy pack but if we didn't need to carry the baby in it, it could be a 5 pounds lighter than the carrier. I previously had tried out a Vargo Ti-Arc pack, which seemed nice for a 30lb load, the ZPacks Arc Haul is another option that advertises ability to carry an extra 10lbs.
The main problems I see with carrying the baby in the front are:
* Conflicts between the backpack and the carrier, since they are not made to work together or be worn simultaneously
* No ventilation between the person carrying the baby and the baby, making for some sweaty hot times
* Possibly difficult to navigate on the trail with impaired visibility of where you are going to step
For the first, I wonder if a design concept similar to an Aarn pack would work. Not sure how to deal with the second or third problems.
But if something were possible, we could stand to reduce our overall weight by rather a lot, and when we have a second baby to carry and each have to carry one, this sort of arrangement seems preferable to two heavily-laden and overpacked frame backpack child carriers. Curious to hear any comments or suggestions - I'm happy to entertain any ideas!
Casey-
There are two key principals to UL that help you (and me) a ton here- weight AND volume. You will need to look at both a bit harder overall.
I think you need to get Gina's rig sorted out, then you can fall back on whatever hero Dad sized pack you need from there...
At the end of the day, you having a high volume external frame you can "dump" weight into when needed will be worth the extra pound of pack. There will be times you'll just have extra crap so some room to spare there makes sense. Most any heavy hauler will do, the real trick is sorting your wife out first, and your overall setup so not such a large amount dumps on you. While short bits or 10 mile days are no biggie, the wear and tear on both of you will likely lead to a hike ending in injury.
If the AT is the goal... you did strike on number 1 reason to rule out a front pack- visibility. And as it's going to be difficult if not impossible to carry a 25lb and growing little one I'd strike the idea. Looking at the pics you also have a length problem already- the little fella is already long and getting longer. And barring surgery I doubt your wife is getting taller. Also; nap time is travel time for me and it's harder for a toddler to sock out in the front carrier either way. You also covered the heat issue for mom and kiddo- which if you want to do a thru is going to lead to pack sores and other skin issues for both of them.
So...
I'm not sure why you are stuck on the Deuter? http://www.rei.com/product/864894/deuter-kid-comfort-iii-child-carrier
While it lists 18L, that's a tough shape to pack and while kiddo stuff is easy to stuff in odd spots, it's not as versatile as the poco plus.
http://www.rei.com/product/828439/osprey-poco-plus-child-carrier
If you look at them a bit more there are a few bigger things that make the difference besides the 23L listed capacity.
-The poco's lower compartment is integrated into the kickstand, which is where some of the extra volume comes in. It's also an easier area to pack as well.
-This also lets you lash on a stuff sack vertically with lightweight gear without interfering with the kickstand itself- can't do that on the Dueter as well. The poco plus has the lash points for the silly daypack that gets added on to the premium model.
-Kiddo sits closer to the pack, the deuter has a more laid back rig- which is good for shorter trips but not so good for an allday carrier as the load pulls back all the time.
-The second heaviest thing- a water bladder... on the poco it actually fits between the kiddo and the frame. Again- load is close to the body and the cold spring water frequently found on the AT helps cool you both as a bonus.
-It's a pound lighter (stock), but you can pull the sunshade, drool pad, and a few other things from it to reduce the load. An umbrella is a better choice with the kiddo.
-Probably personal choice to an extent- but overall I think the osprey has a better suspension on top of the better design.
On the odds and ends pockets- they are about even...
I am still using mine with my 5 year old who is a good 35 pounds and 3' tall. I can use it for weekends with just him and I by packing the bulky sleeping gear into a tube and carrying it strapped vertically on the back. Because of the bottom shape- heavy stuff like food, cook gear, clothes, etc can go into the bottom. All in kid and all I'm probably around 60lbs for a weekend shoulder season trip. 2man tent in there as well.
Sleep gear-
That said... Two large Neo-airs= 2lbs. An EE double bag about 20/30* depending on size would put you about 2lbs there. Few ounces for pad kit is probably a good idea.
http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/accomplice/
With the massive height difference between you all- you might even get away with an extra wide, extra tall Convert for under 2lbs at 20*
http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/convert/
You could make those swaps and drop from 6lbs to 4lbs or so...
The biggest thing though would be a massive volume drop, and perhaps adding in a scrap or two of foam pad for a sit pad or break spot for the boy.
I can carry two of my 25* primaloft quilts, a large neo-air, and a small neo-air in a 7"x24" stuff sack, which I can carry under the kickstand or along the back of the poco as mentioned.
Shelter-
by far the lightest weight to space to volume shelter is going to be a mid.
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=130
http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/triplex.shtml
Looks like you are both stick swinging ninnies (trekking pole users)... so might as well take advantage.
That said- http://www.rei.com/product/880779/big-agnes-copper-spur-ul-3-mtnglo-tent
I use the 2 man version of this... Besides the weight, the volume is quite small for what it is... It's not a bomber 4 season shelter, the fabric is fairly lightweight, but it is adequate.
With a kiddo it's nice having a freestanding tent... You won't always be able to find that perfect spot to stake out or deal with a trekking pole shelter.
A freestanding tent frees you up too from having to stop earlier than you might like for fear of finding that perfect spot, and it also pitches quick when that emergency rain storm pops up or the nap monster attacks mom and dad too. Being able to throw down where and when you like is nice.
I would recommend a ground sheet for this tent for a long hike.
BTW- while the "glow" isn't that bright, it is pretty handy at night time for setting everything up, or for mom and dad not to blast awake kiddo with a headlamp. If nothing else- at about a 2 ounce difference it is lighter than most lights would be, and you can always leave the battery pack at home to save the weight.
The other advantage of a freestanding (or at least a shelter with separate fly) is that you can keep the fly handy for a quick rain shelter /tarp rig. The copper spur fly in particular can be pitched with the spreader pole in it, which makes for a nice quick tarp that gives good coverage.
https://www.campmor.com/c/euroschirm-swing-handsfree-umbrella
I have this for a few reasons-
big enough to cover me and kiddo.
comes with the hands free kit.
It is an extra long, adjustable length handle.
UPF protection.
But coupled with your rain fly from the shelter- if you get in a real nasty moment (or just want a dry place to change a diaper)
It is big enough to make a small bivy shelter. Toss it on the ground, throw the fly over it, and Gina and your son can escape driving rain or hail while you get the shelter up.
Casey & Gina
02-18-2016, 12:42
That isn't bad at all. 6 pounds for the sleeping, I think you said 10 pounds for the tent, another 6 for a good size backpack is only 22lbs, what makes up the other 130 pounds you are taking?
It was 130 between both of us; my share was 75lbs. My pack was 6.25lbs, her carrier was closer to 8. We had two pairs of MSR snowshoes, 2 pairs of microspikes, 4 large CCF pads, 3L water each, cookware, more food than needed (intentional as a safety precaution and because we were going out to camp rather than cover distance), rain gear, down jackets, umbrellas (which didn't get used but do when it rains), gloves, overmitts, a folding saw, headlamps, an iPod, GPS and power bank, a repair kit and first aid kit.
Casey & Gina
02-18-2016, 13:37
I think you need to get Gina's rig sorted out, then you can fall back on whatever hero Dad sized pack you need from there...
As mentioned initially, my bigger concern is for when we have TWO children needing carried, at which point I will presumably need a backpack carrier as well. So we will have to figure out how to cram all of our gear into a pretty limited space.
which if you want to do a thru is going to lead to pack sores and other skin issues for both of them.
At this point I'm doubtful we'll be able to do a thru in the near future, but we do want to do a LASH at least.
I'm not sure why you are stuck on the Deuter? http://www.rei.com/product/864894/deuter-kid-comfort-iii-child-carrier
While it lists 18L, that's a tough shape to pack and while kiddo stuff is easy to stuff in odd spots, it's not as versatile as the poco plus.
Because we've tried the Osprey offerings, and the Deuter is, in our opinions, more comfortable, better designed, and has worked out well so far. We've taken several trips back to the store where I've urged her to try out the Osprey (particularly the Premium) again as it does indeed have a higher cargo volume, but she just doesn't like it as much, and I can't say I do either. To be fair, we haven't taken one out on an actual hike, only tried them in the store. I did just recently purchase a used Kelty Expedition, which boasts a significantly larger cargo capacity than the Osprey, should be arriving today so will report back on how that works out.
-Kiddo sits closer to the pack, the deuter has a more laid back rig- which is good for shorter trips but not so good for an allday carrier as the load pulls back all the time.
On both, that's a matter of adjustment, which I recall being easier to make on the Deuter actually.
-The second heaviest thing- a water bladder... on the poco it actually fits between the kiddo and the frame. Again- load is close to the body and the cold spring water frequently found on the AT helps cool you both as a bonus.
Same on the Deuter.
-It's a pound lighter (stock), but you can pull the sunshade, drool pad, and a few other things from it to reduce the load. An umbrella is a better choice with the kiddo.
We use umbrellas, but I wouldn't rely solely on it - a full rain cover is also a necessity in my opinion.
That said... Two large Neo-airs= 2lbs. An EE double bag about 20/30* depending on size would put you about 2lbs there. Few ounces for pad kit is probably a good idea.
...
You could make those swaps and drop from 6lbs to 4lbs or so...
We will probably switch to NeoAirs or some other light inflatable pads for non-winter use, to reduce bulk. I could switch out the custom Condor for a 30-degree version to save 20oz and maintain compatibility with our existing setup. Leave the hoods behind as well and we've shaved 2 pounds without sacrificing anything but warmth not needed in the warmer seasons. We could go for a tapered double bag (the Feathered Friends Penguin is similar to the EE Accomplice, though heavier) to shave more weight but then we'd also need to switch to tapered regular-width sleeping pads and would be pretty crowded and uncomfortable with the baby in there. With our current 50" wide arrangement, we could fit a second child, at least until one grows up more.
I guess the EE's save weight by using different fabrics? Do you find them to be durable enough? I hadn't even heard of or looked at them before, but the low weights sure do sound nice!
The biggest thing though would be a massive volume drop, and perhaps adding in a scrap or two of foam pad for a sit pad or break spot for the boy.
I can carry two of my 25* primaloft quilts, a large neo-air, and a small neo-air in a 7"x24" stuff sack, which I can carry under the kickstand or along the back of the poco as mentioned.
Our current sack is 9"x20" and compresses down further. It fits into the sleeping bag compartment on my pack pretty easily and the I usually rotate it and loosen the straps up so that it's not compressed quite so much and fills up the compartment better. It doesn't have our pads in it of course but it does have the extra winter bulk of extra down and the hoods. I think our biggest bulk problem is simply the pads
[ouote]by far the lightest weight to space to volume shelter is going to be a mid.
http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=47&products_id=130
http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/triplex.shtml
Looks like you are both stick swinging ninnies (trekking pole users)... so might as well take advantage.
That said- http://www.rei.com/product/880779/big-agnes-copper-spur-ul-3-mtnglo-tent
I use the 2 man version of this... Besides the weight, the volume is quite small for what it is... It's not a bomber 4 season shelter, the fabric is fairly lightweight, but it is adequate.[/quote]
We have a Big Agnes Scout UL2, under 2lbs, uses trekking poles or nearby trees to pitch, and fits our sleeping setup which requires 50" width at the foot end. As you mention about the Copper Spur, it has it's tradeoffs - it's fairly delicate fabric and condensation can be a real issue in certain conditions. No vestibule, but extra room at the foot end. It's a definite option, though our ideal 3-season tent from a comfort and durability standpoint is a Hilleberg Anjan 3GT (around 5lb, so a penalty of +3lb). I do like that the Copper Spur UL3 has a rectangular inner footprint - a shame they didn't do that on the CS UL2.
With a kiddo it's nice having a freestanding tent... You won't always be able to find that perfect spot to stake out or deal with a trekking pole shelter.
A freestanding tent frees you up too from having to stop earlier than you might like for fear of finding that perfect spot, and it also pitches quick when that emergency rain storm pops up or the nap monster attacks mom and dad too. Being able to throw down where and when you like is nice.
We usually don't use trekking poles to pitch the Scout - a couple of nearby trees and a bit of paracord works a lot better. The Hilleberg tunnel tents actually pitch a whole lot faster than the Big Agnes Scout, which is a definite advantage when it's cold and rainy. With those, I can get a tent up enough to take shelter in with two cords tied to trees (or whatever), or two stakes. I do have the extra overhead of having to fuss with poles, but that's really not bad when it's a full sleeve that you just shove the pole into rather than having to deal with a bunch of clips. Wouldn't want to fight wind without more staking out but it's enough to get out of a deluge, or for a sheltered nap in calm weather. That said, if weather is calm why bother with the tent at all? Freestanding can be a definite advantage in some situations, but as none of our tents are freestanding, I don't feel a need for it. Yet... ;) The one thing I do miss about our freestanding tent that we sold was the ability to pick the whole thing up and shake out any dirt easily.
BTW- while the "glow" isn't that bright, it is pretty handy at night time for setting everything up, or for mom and dad not to blast awake kiddo with a headlamp. If nothing else- at about a 2 ounce difference it is lighter than most lights would be, and you can always leave the battery pack at home to save the weight.
I have thought seriously about getting a mtnGlo (they are sold separately) to carry along, and this urges me further. We carry a compact lantern (http://amzn.com/B00G0OVV1W) but I am pretty sure the mtnGlo setup would be lighter, and we carry a power bank anyways which could be used to power it. Sometimes some spread-out light that isn't directional from a headlamp is really nice to have. Though I'll admit this is a pure luxury and we could do without it.
https://www.campmor.com/c/euroschirm-swing-handsfree-umbrella
I have this for a few reasons-
big enough to cover me and kiddo.
comes with the hands free kit.
It is an extra long, adjustable length handle.
UPF protection.
We started with these, but exchanged them for SwingLites. The extra-long handle didn't prove itself to be worth the weight nor did the hands-free kit work very well. The SwingLites are a bit flimsier but so far have held up well and seem to work just as adequately. I can bind mine to my packframe for hands-free use (another external frame advantage).
Just Bill
02-18-2016, 14:58
https://www.tarptent.com/cloudburst3.html
just a thought, if you like the tunnel tents...
3 man CSUL is a nice footprint size and choice I think fer the reasons mentioned, including shaking out the goldfish crumbs ;)
These are probably a bit tight, but weight and design changes over there make Sierra designs worth a look if you like the scout...
https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flashlight-2-fl
https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flash-3-fl
EE shells are plenty tough, and switching to a 10d shell does allow smaller packing overall. Shell weight is big savings on the weight.
If you like to drag them around camp or drape it on you by the fire... maybe not so much. But for just sleeping in the tent they are plenty.
If you're talking near term with a second kiddo... then a front pack up to about 18 months may work out okay.
I'd say keep the older one with Gina and the pack she likes, and consider giving her some bulky but light items (sleeping insulation, spare clothes, etc.)
You take the little one in a front pack for a bit... and eventually when the new one outgrows the front pack the older one is big enough to walk some.
... my son was about 50/50 walking by 4. Depends how far we are trying to go. Point being, he walks enough that I could get away with a regular pack and let him ride on my shoulders for a bit for breaks if we wanted to keep moving... except for branches.:eek: By age 4 ish, naps are pretty well done if you want them to be too.
If you're talking preparing for two now... Maybe you grab the osprey Poco and simply plop the food bag or other dense heavy items into the kid seat.
10lbs of carrier with 3l of water plus a 30 pound kid.... pretty well disqualifies most of us from moving much before you add any gear.
Realistically, you have to be pretty ruthless on the weight to get to something you can both handle comfortably.
You know the drill- get out the spreadsheet and shoot for 80-90lbs as a group. I would try to set a limit of 40 for Gina, 50 for you.
You can't do anything about the kiddos... so like em or not that's why I did the Osprey. 6lbs stripped down and it can handle 60lbs.
Fer me and the boy... 6lb pack, 3lb shelter, 3lb sleep was about the best I could do. 2-6lbs of water at any given time and a few pounds of food and you hit 15lbs plus the kid and 40lbs is a long distant memory.:(
I cut us both down to almost zero spare clothes, minimal diddy bag and cook kit. I went heavy on snacks and no cook food as that's what he likes anyway... but still I haven't had much luck cracking much past 50lbs for the two of us.
That's pretty ultralight really... it's a relative term after you remove the 35lb giggle monster.
15lb baseweight with food and water for two people (or 1 1/2 people) is bordering SUL really. In those type of baseweight terms that pound or two of carrier is pretty relevant.
That's bout all you can do, discount the kids and look at the weight relative to the basegear.
The good news; you got the most important thing- a willing wife :)
A true tarp rig is about the only way to crack the 3lb shelter.
Neo-air the only way to beat the bulk monster.
Down quilt that's shared the only real sleep solution.
6lb vs 10lb kid carrier is a big cut- as they say though- ain't a pound you can save if you don't like the pack.
Bout the only other thing you can look into hard is the kiddo related stuff that ends up along.
Casey & Gina
02-18-2016, 15:51
https://www.tarptent.com/cloudburst3.html
just a thought, if you like the tunnel tents...
These are probably a bit tight, but weight and design changes over there make Sierra designs worth a look if you like the scout...
https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flashlight-2-fl
https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flash-3-fl
Thanks for sharing ideas - I love looking over different gear! I learn about lots of stuff I didn't even know existed this way. :) The real question of this thread is, if I sacrificed all extra comforts and went purely for what would get us by as light as possible while still being durable "enough" to be safe, how light could we get? I apologize for sort of forgetting that in my last response and justifying some of our current gear. Really some choices like the EE Convert may be ideal toward that end, and a 5+lb tent is not, despite how much I may like it. I will think further on the different ideas you're presenting and work on a spreadsheet with gear weights and see what magic can happen. :)
...and eventually when the new one outgrows the front pack the older one is big enough to walk some.
...
If you're talking preparing for two now... Maybe you grab the osprey Poco and simply plop the food bag or other dense heavy items into the kid seat.
That brings up an interesting idea - I could have a bag that I carried along in one hand if the child were being carried, that got stuck into the carrier when he wanted to walk. As long as it weren't terribly heavy, simply toting along a small duffel could be workable. Worst case it could be clipped on to the back of a carrier, though the problem with that is that the weight is very far back.
You know the drill- get out the spreadsheet and shoot for 80-90lbs as a group. I would try to set a limit of 40 for Gina, 50 for you.
Without the winter gear, but still including the heavy 4-season tent (because I haven't gotten around to updating our lists) and winter sleeping bag setup with all four pads, our weights are at 45 and 42lbs. That's with water but without food, and counting 25lbs for the baby which is his current weight. We've made a few gear adjustments that I haven't accounted for but it should be pretty close to the same.
You can't do anything about the kiddos... so like em or not that's why I did the Osprey. 6lbs stripped down and it can handle 60lbs.
Oh, I meant to ask - why did you opt for a Plus rather than the Premium?
I cut us both down to almost zero spare clothes, minimal diddy bag and cook kit. I went heavy on snacks and no cook food as that's what he likes anyway...
Our cook kit is one place I can shave weight and bulk...our current kitchen setup is over 2lbs and could probably be at least halved pretty easily. The biggest pot we have is a 1600ml so removing that would cut down on bulk. On the other hand it's nice to make one big pot of food at once, which can be more time- and fuel-efficient. We could perhaps instead ditch the smaller pot and pack other stuff we are carrying anyways in it, to reduce the cookware weight.
I will start a new lighterpack list which is really UL-focused, using some gear that I have or at least think will work, so I can see where I am as a starting point and get some more specific feedback on it.
The good news; you got the most important thing- a willing wife :)
Yarr!
peterboysen
02-18-2016, 17:59
Hey, I'm glad to see you going after getting outside with the family, even in winter. I was going to come sing the praises of EE gear (I work for EE, by the way), but Bill took care of that, so I'll add another option if you want to go for a more open blanket feel - our Itasca (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/itasca-down-comforter/) is essentially just a big queen-sized comforter, so it lacks the footbox and attachments of the Accomplice, but also is a little more natural feeling when tucking an extra kiddo (or two) in there as well. That said, for winter use you probably won't want to go that route unless you're fairly still sleepers.
If you wanted something to supplement your kiddo specifically, you could also look up the Protege (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/protege/), which kids up to around 7 years old can use. At 14months you'll probably still want them overlapped with an adult quilt (whether solo or double) for squirminess reasons , but as they get a little older it seems more practical for them to have their own.
For fun, here's a photo of my son Lionel in his Protege. He's almost 3.
33708
Just Bill
02-18-2016, 18:16
The convert might work great with your height differences... big enough wide open to spread out but on that odd below average night you could zip up and not get too crowded in the footbox. You could probably get away with a 30* too.
I still like the 1/4-1/3 of bodyweight rule for total packweight. Go much past there and you'll either get injured or see your milage drop to the 6-10 mpd range (which may be fine?)
That's the crux of the kiddo problem really... ages 2-5 being the tricky window where they are too heavy to carry and too young to walk much. So either you settle for 5-10 mile days or break yourself trying to haul it all.
What other's were hinting at is that the common choice is to just let the kiddos set the miles and not kill yourself trying to carry them.
What is new/neat/possible with SUL stuff is that you can do both, but you do really need to push your gear past what most are comfortable with to do it.
On the Poco Plus versus Premium...
The premium has an extra "daypack" that clips to the back of the carrier over the mesh area. So you could buy the premium and remove the daypack and also own a plus. The feature doesn't fit my style, and likely it would just turn into a repository for heavy stuff (kiddo creams, lotions, wipes, diddy bag crap) that would imbalance the load. If you got a deal on the premium- just pop off the pack.
I wouldn't go true stoveless with a kid along... a hot meal/drink goes a long way for making up any clothing or gear mistakes. Plus good for morale all around and you have time to cook so might as well.
BUT... you may consider a bit of a hybrid approach and restrict yourself to freezer bag dinners and morning coffee. Bulk up on non-cook meals and snacks and you can drop down to the single pot easily.
I picked up one of these but haven't used it enough to vouch for it yet... but got it because it packs easy into the poco's mesh sleeve on the back of the carrier.
http://www.rei.com/product/889971/sea-to-summit-x-pot-kettle-13-liter?cm_mmc=cse_PLA_GOOG-_-8899710001&CAWELAID=120217890000822910&lsft=cm_mmc:cse_PLA_GOOG
It works okay with my little olicamp cannister stove, too chicken to try it on a fire yet or with esbit.
I like my coffee and the boy likes his butter noodles... so this and a twist lock ziplock container keep everyone happy on that score. Otherwise bars, candy, goldfish, PB&J, and cheerios do the job.
Daddy's special juice (gatorade) is always popular, so are sucker breaks (dum-dums) when he's crapping out or crabby. (or daddy is).
The ziplock twistlocks are a good way to add "meal" capacity without needing extra pots if you haven't tried them yet. You can do a water boil meal in them, then put the pot back on for your hot beverage. Works great for a side of veggies and a main course group meal type style too with coozies for them. Good bowls for cold cereals come breakfast time or to make a batch of pudding to sit in a cold stream at camp.
Casey & Gina
02-20-2016, 23:06
Well, the Kelty Expedition definitely has a LOT of cargo room, over 3840ci (63L) (versus 1275 (21L) on the Deuter KC III, 1400 (23L) on the Osprey Poco Plus or 2075 (34L) on the Osprey Poco Premium, including the daypack). The bottom compartment is a huge cavern that is really a great use of space and comes up right up under the baby's seat. It looks deceptively small in the pictures. I packed rather a phenomenal amount of gear into the bottom compartment, and then filled the detachable daypack (which can hold a ridiculous amount) with diapers and clothes and random stuff just to fill it up, totalling 55lbs with the baby. It's certainly an interesting carrier but it is definitely preferable to not load up the daypack with much as it pulls back too much (same as with the Ospreys). It is much nicer to use without the daypack loaded up or simply taken off, bit the Deuter carries the same amount of weight more comfortably, and the construction quality is better (though you gotta love Dyneema Gridstop).
33739 33740 33741
Looks like Osprey now has redesigned the Poco in the form of the Poco AG. These look compelling!
http://www.ospreypacks.com/images/product/hero/pocopremium_side_ivygreen.jpg
Wow 6.9lbs and $250.
Thom
Casey & Gina
02-21-2016, 14:36
Wow 6.9lbs and $250.
Yeah, none of the backpack child carriers are very light. :( They all have metal frames that go around the back of the child in addition the the main full frame. And they don't allow you to distribute weight very well either.
Yeah, none of the backpack child carriers are very light. :( They all have metal frames that go around the back of the child in addition the the main full frame. And they don't allow you to distribute weight very well either.
I still think u could modify a SMD 60L backpack save $150. And 5 lbs .
Thom
One Half
10-03-2016, 13:23
I like Lynette's take on things. Plan your hikes that they aren't centered around winter or wet conditions or over strenuous terrain or elev profiles. And, if you do consider making it more into a camping trip rather than a hiking trip. As said, things SLOOOOW down with kids. let them walk some. Watch. Guide. Be patient. carry some but not all the time is my taking a young child into Nature scenario. Lighten up on personality. laugh. No hardcore shart.
This. When we started backpacking with our son it greatly reduced the miles we went. He got a backpack with his snacks and blankie. Then as he grew we added his water using a camelback with enough space for his snacks and a couple other things (this was after diapers).
The other thing that happened is we started carrying a book to identify local plants and birds (small ones but books) and a camera (before cell phones had cameras and everyone had a cell phone) and that gave us something to do along the way. We would let him take pictures (big bulky digital camera) but we would try to identify as we went and then we could spend time after the trip trying to identify the ones we couldn't on trail.
theinfamousj
10-05-2016, 21:50
I cannot tell Gina's size from here, but I work as a nanny and am currently with my 6th between-1-and-2-year-old of my career. I wouldn't do a front carrier anymore for a 25 lber, and the reason is tendonitis. She might not have it yet, but with consistent carrying on the front of a toddler, she'll get it. I have it now and the doctor assures me that it is extremely common in childcare workers who specialize in the 1-to-2-year-old set. Hiking long distances over uncertain terrain will likely simulate the strain I have put on my legs to get it. Don't do it. Painful. No. Ugh.
That said, while a child that age won't be able to walk teens of miles, you can get trail legs on a child that young. My current Little One is 18 months and he can walk at least four miles with plenty more energy in him. The way he got there was that as soon as he could walk, we did walk. I'd bring a carrier along and would back carry him only when he had reached his absolute exhaustion, but so long as he had energy in him, he walked. No more stroller.
And not only does he walk, but he carries his own bitty kiddo backpack. (so cute)
His Mom, my employer, is also a hiker and takes him on regular dayhikes on the trails of the area.
So, while I see you all wanting to optimize your system in terms of gear, I also recommend training your Little One to be a hiker in their own right, including carrying a pack if possible. Since your lovely little is over the age of one, I'm assuming she's walking on her own.
As for your concern about having two children: by that point your current little one will be full on preschool aged. If Gina were pregnant today, your little one would be 2+ years old at your next child's birth. That's more than old enough to use her own legs for transportation and carry her own pack.
Hope it helps! Children are surprisingly capable if we lower our daily mileage expectations.