View Full Version : Dressing for 0 degrees
white blaze
12-17-2005, 20:52
Seeking opinions on layering for 0 degrees while sitting around in camp. I warm up well while hiking, but I'm talking about when I get to the shelter and stop generating so much heat. Here's my plan so far:
TOP
--Capeline longsleeve
--Fleece vest
--Patagonia Micro Puff Pullover over the fleece vest & capeline undershirt
--Marmot Precip rain jacket over everything
BOTTOM
--PolarMax Double Base Layer longjohns
--Polarteck 200 weight fleece pants
--Marmot Precip rain shell pants
Layers are good. Don't forget a warm hat (30 -50%) of body heat is lost through the head. Also a tent is warmer than a shelter.
I'm not sure if I would wear the precip over the down coat, because of condensation.
white blaze
12-17-2005, 21:48
I don't have a down jacket, unfortunately. The Micro Puff Pullover is synthetic. Over a fleece vest. But I am concerned whether those top layers will be warm enough in temps down to zero.
Alligator
12-17-2005, 22:00
I'd probably be close to cold. I would have another complete layer. I am a silk convert, that's what I'd have on the bottom. Plus a hat, 200 wt fleece gloves, a neck gaitor, two pairs of socks (one fleece), and fleece booties. The rain gear would be held in reserve for safety.
If you've never tested out this system 0 degrees is bit low to be making a first try. I'd err on the side of caution.
Fiddleback
12-17-2005, 23:16
I tend to agree with the other posters...I don't think the two Marmot pieces will do much for warmth. Although heavier, my feeling is you'll get a much bigger boost in warmth with something like the Integral Designs Dolomitti jacket and Denali pants. While neither ID piece is waterproof, they are water repellant and at 0° wetout shouldn't be much of an issue. Alternatively, Bozeman Mountain Works offers pieces lighter than the IDs but still warmer than the Marmots...take a look at the Cocoon pullover and the Cocoon pants. Word of warning -- neither piece is in stock.:-?
Both the ID and the BMW sets are suitable for incorporating into your sleep system putting the extra bit of weight carried to double use. I've used the IDs in such a way and I'm anxiously awaiting the Cocoon pants so I can try 'em out.
FB
hammock engineer
12-18-2005, 01:05
I agree with everyone else. Test and error on side of caution. I would try sitting outside in the cold weather at your house and see what works for you.
Personally, I think I would be cold. I don't have experience with the Micro Puff jacket, but similar ones of the same weight and insulation have been mariginal at 15 degrees just sitting around. For 0 degrees I'd probably ditch the vest and add another full length item. You could just upgrade to a heavier jacket, but you need to keep individual layers light enough so that you can wear just one while hiking and stopping for breaks.
As mentioned previously you definitely want to add some sort of headgear. A fleece balaclava works great. You can roll it up and down as needed to give protection to your ears and neck. I'd also add a pair of 200 weight fleece mittens.
Those fleece pants will probably work well at keeping your lower half warm, but fleece packs poorly. It doesn't compress and is going to take up a LOT or room in your pack.
Zero degrees is a bit extreme for most of us to try and be prepared for using just clothing to keep warm. My wife and I regularly go out hiking with night time temps hitting the low teens. Our sleeping bags are a major part of the keeping warm gear. Once the setting up camp chores are complete we're in them. We don't care to carry the weight all day of the extra clothing that would be needed to stay warm just sitting around.
MedicineMan
12-18-2005, 08:07
but the shell is still smart, here's why...it will protect the down garment underneath and create yet another micro dead air space between it and the down parka.....if you are concerned about weight then look at this:
http://www.prolitegear.com/pl_montbell_ul_down_inner_jacket.html
or even better:
http://www.westernmountaineering.com/index.cfm?section=Products&page=Jackets%20%26%20Vests&viewpost=2&ContentId=55
If you know you'll be hanging out at 0F then get a down balaclava and get out of the wet socks/boots and into down booties and at 0F you'll wearing the down parka/jacket inside your sleeping bag while you're nipping on olive oil :)
If it's zero degrees, and I'm just sitting around, then I'd opt for getting into a good down sleeping bag. Unless you are layered up like the Michalen tire man, it's hard to stay warm without moving when it's that cold.
In addition to tops and bottoms, think about hat, mittens, and extra layers on your feet.
Youngblood
12-18-2005, 09:56
How much loft do you need on top of you for a 0F sleeping bag, about 3.5 to 4 inches? If you are sitting around for long periods of time with nothing else warming you up, would you not need about the same amount of insulation. Otherwise you are on a clock... you've got some extra body heat from previous exertion, you're sitting around with not enough insulation to last all night and you're just waiting until you get cold enough to get in your sleeping bag.
What I'm getting to is for a certain amount of marginal insulation you've got a certain amount of time before you get too cold and you either have to do something to warm up, generate more heat (eating, exercising, etc) or get more insulation by getting into your sleeping bag. At 0F, you also need to be concerned about what you are 'sitting on' when you are sitting around camp because you can lose a lot of heat real fast that way.
peter_pan
12-18-2005, 09:59
White Blaze, et al,
Here is an alternative approach... It is Warrrrrm. No Rating claimed, still waiting for cold enough weather to test.
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Down%20Sleeves.htm
Body 2-4 inches of down, depending on location... hood and sleeves 1.5 inches of down... then converts to sleep system....Granted at 0 degrees you may want a second quilt or bag, but the weight will still be less going this way.
Pan
white blaze
12-18-2005, 13:07
I've had reservations about the Micro Puff being good to 0. I'll probably order a WM Flight or Meltdown jacket. The Meltdown may be overkill but I like the hood. It'd be one self contained piece for my head and upper body, leaving only my face and hands exposed. Of course with that kind of loft I probably wouldn't want to squeeze a Precip shell over it.
Seeking opinions on layering for 0 degrees while sitting around in camp. I warm up well while hiking, but I'm talking about when I get to the shelter and stop generating so much heat. Here's my plan so far:
TOP
--Capeline longsleeve
--Fleece vest
--Patagonia Micro Puff Pullover over the fleece vest & capeline undershirt
--Marmot Precip rain jacket over everything
BOTTOM
--PolarMax Double Base Layer longjohns
--Polarteck 200 weight fleece pants
--Marmot Precip rain shell pants
As others have mentioned. If the temp is consistantly below freezing, the I would lose the marmot jacket and bring an unlined windshirt. You will want something more breathable. I would wear the windshirt over your base and maybe the vest when active and then layer the micro puff over it. You list would be toasty warm for me at 0F... but I run a bit hot.
I would strongly encourage checking out some softshell pants. They breath better than the precip while providing good protection against the elements. I have found that my legs are more tolerate of temp variation that the rest of my body. I can wear a pair of schoeller dryskin pants down to around 20F without anything under them, and with just a mid-weight base layer they work down to 0F.
Add a hat + scarf/neck-gaitor, or a baklava. You loose between 40-60% of your heat from you head and neck area.
How cold is it really going to be when you are sitting around? Most of my winter trips I am mostly moving, and when it's time to stop I am getting into my sleeping bag, which is often inside a temp.
--mark
I think your list looks great. I have been working outside the past month in sub zero temps and have worn less. Just take care of those hands and feet.
vagabond
12-18-2005, 23:50
Unless you're a very warm person, there's no way this setup will keep you warm at 0 degrees. (You meant degress Fahrenheit, right?) Then again, why would you want to be "sitting around" in cold like that? I'd hop in my sleeping bag ASAP when it is that cold.
Personally, I would replace the puff pullover with a down jacket. The down jacket will start to get damp from condensation each time you wear it at these cold temperatures, but you can dry it out easily enough at night if you sleep in it and if you are using a Polarguard sleeping bag.
I would be quite cautious about using a down sleeping bag in these cold temperatures for a thru-hike. Moisture will ALWAYS condense inside a sleeping bag when it is very cold. You won't notice how much moisture the down has accumulated until after several days, at which point the bag will start to lose loft. What if you are the middle of nowhere when this happens. Down is fine for weekend hikers, or for situations where you can dry it out during the day, but I would be very cautious about using down for winter thru-hiking on the AT, unless you use a vapor barrier to keep the down dry.
If you really expect to be thru-hiking in winter temperatures, I would suggest a combination of a thick down jacket (2" loft for a single layer) plus a Polarguard sleeping bag or quilt with another 1.5" of single-layer loft, for a combined total of 3.5" of single-layer loft (7" double-layer loft). Moisture will also condense inside a Polarguard bag at 0 degrees Fahrenheit, but it won't be nearly as much a problem as with down.
MedicineMan
12-19-2005, 00:24
currently playing with a new patagonia garment, the Axuwool Hoody:
http://www.patagonia.com/za/PDC?OPTION=PRODUCT&merchant_rn=7385&sku=24390&ws=false
If you like synthetics AND merino (non itch) wool this is something to consider. I can tell you it is very lightweight and extremely warm as a base layer. The integral balaclava style hood is nice letting you know you've got the head coverage already there,the thumbholes keep insulation over your vascular rich wrists....
smokymtnsteve
12-19-2005, 00:35
well zero is not real cold ..but if ur gonna play in some real cold
http://www.midnightmushingalaska.com/Clothing.shtml
I'm getting the mitts for the holidays...good to 65 below or colder.
MedicineMan
12-19-2005, 00:46
are you near anchorage, if so PM me
smokymtnsteve
12-19-2005, 00:50
no I'm living in Two Rivers, about 20 miles NNE of Fairbanks.
to warm and damp for me in ANC ;)
smokymtnsteve
12-19-2005, 01:14
this is some great cold weather gear...maybe a little too much for just zero!
http://www.akgear.com/products.htm
Well, I don't think I'd be "sitting around camp" at zero degrees. I'd be in my minus-15 winter bag. Inside a tent. With a Nalgene filled with very hot water.
For when I couldn't be in the bag, the top items on your list wouldn't do it for me. I'd need a couple more midweight top layers--one of which would be a turtleneck, a good winter cap, fleece gloves with outer shell, maybe even a bacalava (sp?). Your bottom layers would probably work for me.
Photofanatic
12-19-2005, 03:15
You know you can keep adding micro-layers until you have reached the weight of a good down parka. Todays parka's are not too heavy to pack along on a winter hike. They are made of ripstop nylon and stuffed with down. As long as they are dry feathers are easy to carry. Just add it to the same compression sack as your sleeping bag. It is really no big deal to carry.
peter_pan
12-19-2005, 10:01
currently playing with a new patagonia garment, the Axuwool Hoody:
http://www.patagonia.com/za/PDC?OPTION=PRODUCT&merchant_rn=7385&sku=24390&ws=false
If you like synthetics AND merino (non itch) wool this is something to consider. I can tell you it is very lightweight and extremely warm as a base layer. The integral balaclava style hood is nice letting you know you've got the head coverage already there,the thumbholes keep insulation over your vascular rich wrists....
MM,
Looks nice how much does it weigh?
Pan
I have heard alot about the polar fleeces the down jackets ect ect,I personally like thick wool and a hard shell to cover me!wool hat ect ect but each to thier own:D ky