Sleeping Bag Advice Please [Archive]

HarleyHogPit

12-18-2005, 21:09

So many bags, so little knowledge. Please help.

I need help deciding which sleeping bag to get. There are so many options and shopping online allows for endless searching. Here is a long list of some of the bags I have in mind. I want to get a down bag that is very warm, light weight, and water resistant. If anyone has used any of these bags or if anyone has any other bags in mind I would appreciate some advice. I have more information on all the bags but I am just going to list temperature rating*, weight, and price. Can someone explain what the fill number means?

This is the one piece of equipment I am willing to spend some money on. I would hate to spend this kind of money on something and make a bad selection.

The first two bags on the list are my top two choices.

(1) THE NORTH FACE Hightail 900 -- 15*, 1 lb. 12 oz., $349

(2) MARMOT Women's Angel fire -- 15*, 2 lbs. 10 oz., $199

(3) THE NORTH FACE Superlight Woman's -- 0*, 3 lbs. 7oz., $245

(4) WESTERN MOUNTAINEERING Versalite Super -- 10*, 2 lbs., $360

(5) " Ultralight -- 20*, 1 lb. 10 oz., $300

(6) " High Lite -- 35*, 16 oz., $220

(7) " Antelope Super DL -- 5*, 2 lbs. 13 oz., $470

(8) " Apache Super DL -- 15*, 2 lbs. 6 oz., $410

(9) MARMOT Never Summer -- 0*, 3 lbs. 12 oz., $220

(10)MOUNTAIN HARDWARE Women's Clouds Rest--5*,3lb. 9oz., $220

(11) MARMOT Women's Teton -- 0*, 3 lbs. 8oz., $249

(12) CAMPMOR Goose Down -- 0*, 3 lbs. 5 oz., $140

(13) MOUNTAIN HARDWARE Phantom -- 0*, 2 lbs. 10 oz., $350

vagabond

12-18-2005, 22:05

zachv

12-18-2005, 22:30

i would go with the ultralite (west. mtn.) i have one and love it.

sliderule

12-19-2005, 00:19

Can someone explain what the fill number means?

The fill number refers to the volume that will be occupied by one ounce of down. One ounce of 600 down will fill a space of 600 cubic inches. So, in theory, the higher the fill value the less weight is required to create a certain amount of loft in a sleeping bag or garment. However, the numbers are not entiely accurate and are subject to manipulation.

The fill testing procedure is a bit artificial and does not subject the down to realistic "field" conditions. For the lab test, the down is "conditioned" for several days, then placed in a cylinder with a 68 gram weight on top. Then the fill volume is measured. The conditioning procedure tends to inflate the test results, since down used in the finished product does not undergo this process.

Bottom line: Don't get overly excited by claims of very high fill volumes. You will not get the same results in the field as they get in the lab.

RedneckRye

12-19-2005, 00:32

SlideRule posted most of this as I was typing my reply. So. like he said...
Western Mountaineering. Any of them.

The fill power of down is the amount of space, in cubic inches, that 1 (one) ounce of down will fill in a cylindrical chamber with a weighted lid under laboratory conditions. I have no idea of the weight of the lid, although it can't be much. Most bag companies use independent testing companies to test their down. Western rates their bags at 850+. Marmot has discontinued their 900 fill bags as they couldn't consistently source down of that quality in the quantity that they needed. 600 was the industry standard for years when all down came from asia, 800-900 started showing up once bag companies started sourcing their down from eastern eurrope. Older geese yield larger plumules of down which leads to a higher fill power. Maybe europeans like to eat older, larger geese. Oh yeah, down is a by-product of the food industry.
Lab conditions have nothing to do with the bag in a compression sack, after a week of rainy weather, after you've already spent 2 months sleeping in the bag and loading it up with body grease and other assorted funk.

verber

12-19-2005, 00:43

My question is what conditions are you looking to face? Is this a spring/summer AT thru-hike, AT in the winter, travelling through patagonia, summer backpacking trips, etc.

For 3-season trips I would recommend checking out down quilts such as thoughs made by jacksrbetter. I use a down quilt when I expect the night-time low is normally going to be above 25F. The quilt keeps me comfortable down to around 35F. and I combine the quilt with a high loft synthetic jacket for the coldest nights.

If you want a more traditional sleeping bag, I would recommend Western Mountaineering, Montbell, and Feathered Friends. All three companies makes excellent sleeping bags. You can't go wrong with any of them. I use a WM Versalite in the winter and love it.

You might want to take a quick look at Charles Lindsey's wonderful, but slightly dated sleeping bag review:
http://www.backpacking.net/gear-reviews/sleeping-bag-review/

One thing to note. If you are on an extended trip in below freezing temps you need to either bring a vapor barrier or use a synthetic bag. Moisture will condense in your sleeping bag. Down does not handle this as well as synthetic insulation.

ARambler

12-19-2005, 00:55

I agree with the Western Mountaineering or Feathered Friends 20 F bags. You posted this question before, and got two recommedations for the Campmor 20 F bag. Why didn't you consider it??:confused:

Peaks

12-19-2005, 09:22

Others may disagree, but I don't see a major difference between various sleeping bags. A 20 degree sleeping bag is a 20 degree sleeping bag is a 20 degree sleeping bag.

First, make a basic decision: Down or synthetic.

Second: what's you budget? Can you afford a top of the line bag like Feathered Friends and Western Mounteering or something less?

Third: What fits you? Nothing like going to an outfitter and trying on various bags.

The Solemates

12-19-2005, 11:16

what kind of conditions? is this for a spring thru? when are you leaving?

if you are leaving mid-march like most people, and if money is not a factor, Id go with one similar to #1, but a different model, the beeline. seen here: http://www.thenorthface.com/opencms/opencms/tnf/gear.jsp?site=NA&model=ABO3

because at 1lb 3oz for a 30 degree bag, it is the lightest bag I know of. 900 fill is stout as well..

verber

12-19-2005, 12:50

Others may disagree, but I don't see a major difference between various sleeping bags. A 20 degree sleeping bag is a 20 degree sleeping bag is a 20 degree sleeping bag.
I completely disagree.

First, not all rating are the same. If the bag is rated as 20 degree using something like EU's EN 13537:2002 then they should be equally warm. But here is the US, the "rating" is typically made up by the manufacturers who have very different standards. For example, I have had experience with two different "20F rated" sleeping bags. There was a HUGE difference between how warm they kept me.

Campmor 20F bag, $87, 2lbs. Good value, but I was very cold in 20F weather. Comfortable when it was around 35F.
Western Mountaineering Versalite, $310, 2lbs. Kept me comfortable to 5F.The second issue is the quality of the bag. You don't always get what you pay for, but most often you do. The reason why bags made by companies like Western Mountaineering are more expensive is the quality of the materials and the workmanship. This results in bags which last longer and are typically lighter for a given warmth.

The third reason not all bags are the same is that some companies provide options most other companies don't. For example Feather Friends provides custom sizing a bag, using innovative materials like eVENT for the shell. Montbell does the super-stretch bags which are great for people who move around a lot. Etc.

Chantilly Lace

12-19-2005, 12:56

HHP -

To

Chantilly Lace

12-19-2005, 12:56

HHP -

To add

jimmyjob

12-19-2005, 13:31

you need something 900 fill...20 degree...and less than 2 pounds...they exist...a little on the pricee side but you get what you pay for....

check this link

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm/WE2200

read this forum

http://www.backpacking.net/

Chantilly Lace

12-19-2005, 13:36

scratch those first two replies - computer trouble here.

Give some thought to the girth of the sleeping bag, for all bags are not the same width at the shoulder area. This is very important, IMHO. Go to your local outfitter and get in a few, with and without your coat on, to see what is most comfortable.

Seeker

12-19-2005, 16:34

So many bags, so little knowledge. Please help.

I want to get a down bag that is very warm, light weight, and water resistant. If anyone has used any of these bags or if anyone has any other bags in mind I would appreciate some advice. I have more information on all the bags but I am just going to list temperature rating*, weight, and price.

as you can see from previous comments, WM has a reputation for being conservative with it's ratings... i'm a cold sleeper, and my WM Caribou (35*) served me just fine on a recent night out just below that range. i chose it over the highlite (weighs 4 oz more) because i wanted a slightly more robust covering.

prettty much any marmot, FF, TNF, or WM bag is going to be water resistant. can't speak for the others, but they may indeed be fine... i just have no knowledge of them.

what you haven't done on your list is chose what temp rating you expect to need it for... you've got one bag listed at 35*, and another at 0*. yes, manufacturers ratings vary somewhat, but that's quite a spread. if you give us a smaller temp range, there might be better advice... another thing that varies widely is the weights of the bags... some are a little over a pound, others are close to three lbs... how much are you willing to carrry? if three pounds, then you can get a cheaper synthetic bag. (i know, you've already chosen down... i'm just pointing out the weight varience). two other statistical 'modes' stand out to me... 4 of the 13 choices are 'womens' bags'. 5 are WM bags. how important are the 'womens' bags' features to you? why so many WM bags?

i think for an AT thruhike, a 20* bag, even early on, would suit you fine. the WM ultralite and alpinlite fit into that range, and i'm sure the temp rating is accurate. the alpinlite is slightly broader through the chest, whereas i've heard the Ultralite described as a straitjacket...

the marmot hydrogen is another competitor. not sure why it was off the list, but i thought i should at least point it out...

Spirit Walker

12-19-2005, 16:37

If you will be hiking in the Appalachians, I would get a bag with some sort of water repellant finish. When the fog rolls in, everything gets wet. If you are in a small tent, you are likely to have condensation if it's cold. On the AT hiking early season, staying dry means staying warm. If you are hiking out west, it is usually possible to spread out your sleeping bag for an hour and it will dry out. On the AT, the only way to dry out is to go to town.

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 17:57

Are you planning on bringing a thick down jacket along? If so, you can sleep in that and hence may not need such a heavy sleeping bag. A Western Mountaining Flight jacket would only weigh about 8oz, but provides almost 2" of loft on either side of your torso. With a thick jacket like that, you might be able to get by with a much lighter and hence cheaper sleeping bag.
I was not planning on bringing a thick down jacket along. Now I have one more thing to consider. Actually, I haven't started thinking about clothing quite yet.

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 18:06

The Solemates

12-19-2005, 18:12

I'm planning a NOBO thru hike in early April and I have been told that the the temps can get into the teens at night so I want something really warm. I don't really know how I feel about a quilt because I like the feeling of having something zipped up around me and I also like the feeling of being in a sleeping bag while sleeping in shetlers. How long have you had your WM Versalite?

if you arent starting til april, i would just go with a summer bag, anywhere from 30-45 degree range. you can get those for around 1-1.5lbs. personally, i would get a lightweight 40 degree bag for that start.

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 18:28

if you are leaving mid-march like most people, and if money is not a factor, Id go with one similar to #1, but a different model, the beeline. seen here: http://www.thenorthface.com/opencms/opencms/tnf/gear.jsp?site=NA&model=ABO3

because at 1lb 3oz for a 30 degree bag, it is the lightest bag I know of. 900 fill is stout as well..
I saw the beeline on The North Face website. I'll go back and check it out again, I don't remember why I picked the other model over that one. I think because I didn't think 30* was warm enough. Money is a factor but my sleeping bag is the one thing that I am willing to put money into as long as I get the best quality for my money. I'd rather spend a little more money and get a really nice bag but if I can get a bag that is just as nice I will gladly go cheaper. Originally I did not plan on spending a lot of money on a bag but after a little research I realized the importance of a nice bag. Most people said that the one piece of equipment they would have spent more money on was his/her bag. Thanks for the suggestion I'll check out the Beeline again.

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 18:31

if you arent starting til april, i would just go with a summer bag, anywhere from 30-45 degree range. you can get those for around 1-1.5lbs. personally, i would get a lightweight 40 degree bag for that start.
I'm a really cold sleeper and I would rather be too warm than not warm enough. Maybe I could add a silk liner or something. I hate to be cold while I sleep.

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 18:34

Give some thought to the girth of the sleeping bag, for all bags are not the same width at the shoulder area. This is very important, IMHO. Go to your local outfitter and get in a few, with and without your coat on, to see what is most comfortable.
good idea. I will go get in some bags and see how they feel.

BW2006

12-19-2005, 18:52

I am starting with The North Face Snowshoe. It's a O degree bag and synthetic. Down bags are only a few ounces more and I was very concerned about wet weather and the bag getting damp. For the few ounces it's worth it to know I will still be warm. I get cold easily so a O degree is for me. I will get a lighter one as the weather warms up. (I figure some outfitter will have one along the way and I'll send my smelly snowshoe home.)

HarleyHogPit

12-19-2005, 19:07

what you haven't done on your list is chose what temp rating you expect to need it for... you've got one bag listed at 35*, and another at 0*. yes, manufacturers ratings vary somewhat, but that's quite a spread. if you give us a smaller temp range, there might be better advice... another thing that varies widely is the weights of the bags... some are a little over a pound, others are close to three lbs... how much are you willing to carrry? if three pounds, then you can get a cheaper synthetic bag. (i know, you've already chosen down... i'm just pointing out the weight varience). two other statistical 'modes' stand out to me... 4 of the 13 choices are 'womens' bags'. 5 are WM bags. how important are the 'womens' bags' features to you? why so many WM bags?

i think for an AT thruhike, a 20* bag, even early on, would suit you fine. the WM ultralite and alpinlite fit into that range, and i'm sure the temp rating is accurate. the alpinlite is slightly broader through the chest, whereas i've heard the Ultralite described as a straitjacket...

Hey seeker--Thanks once again for the advice. I want a bag that keeps me warm when the temp drops below freezing. I like the women's bags because they are just my size and a lot of other sleeping bags are made for a much larger person. I don't see the point of hauling the extra weight if I am fine with a shorter bag. I also want something really light weight. Ideally, one pound is better than 3 but I put a variety on here because at this point I think I can be swayed either way. I chose down over synthetic because of the greater compression giving me more room in my pack. My question is now, if I am willing to put the extra money in what bag would you go with and why? I'll check out the Marmot Hydrogen bag. I was going to purchase a bag the other weekend but I just couldn't make up my mind.

I want a bag that:
-compresses smaller and is lighter than a synthetic bag because that is the main reason I chose down in the first place.
-that fits me with the least amount of unused space.
-keeps me warm down to 5F-15F. (This may be overkill but I would rather be safe than sorry. Maybe I could wear more clothes and get a way with a higher temp bag. I just need to get something and stop thinking about it so much.)

frieden

12-19-2005, 19:35

Obviously, I'm not "experienced" if I'm asking this question, but what special care do these bags need? This was part of the description off of the link you posted: "Western's Ultralite bags are meant to be used by experienced people who are skilled in the care of their equipment."

you need something 900 fill...20 degree...and less than 2 pounds...they exist...a little on the pricee side but you get what you pay for....

check this link

http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm/WE2200

read this forum

http://www.backpacking.net/

frieden

12-19-2005, 20:40

Any comments on this one?
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/bagdetail.cfm/WE2360

sliderule

12-19-2005, 21:11

Obviously, I'm not "experienced" if I'm asking this question, but what special care do these bags need? This was part of the description off of the link you posted: "Western's Ultralite bags are meant to be used by experienced people who are skilled in the care of their equipment."

WM bags with names ending in "...lite," such as Highlite & Mitylite, are constructed with a very lightweight shell material. The fabric is not as resistant to damage as the typical shell material. It is also more prone to down penetration.
You don't really need to be "experienced," just careful.

Cheesewhiz

12-19-2005, 23:06

Why fuss with a zipper and the weight of the un-neccessary bottom. Just buy a quilt! Hammock sleeper or not why not use a quilt for all sleeping arrangements. Lighter and just as warm.

Seeker

12-20-2005, 02:12

Hey seeker--Thanks once again for the advice. I want a bag that keeps me warm when the temp drops below freezing. I like the women's bags because they are just my size and a lot of other sleeping bags are made for a much larger person. I don't see the point of hauling the extra weight if I am fine with a shorter bag. I also want something really light weight. Ideally, one pound is better than 3 but I put a variety on here because at this point I think I can be swayed either way. I chose down over synthetic because of the greater compression giving me more room in my pack. My question is now, if I am willing to put the extra money in what bag would you go with and why? I'll check out the Marmot Hydrogen bag. I was going to purchase a bag the other weekend but I just couldn't make up my mind.

I want a bag that:
-compresses smaller and is lighter than a synthetic bag because that is the main reason I chose down in the first place.
-that fits me with the least amount of unused space.
-keeps me warm down to 5F-15F. (This may be overkill but I would rather be safe than sorry. Maybe I could wear more clothes and get a way with a higher temp bag. I just need to get something and stop thinking about it so much.)

i meant those as rhetorical questions... i was just trying to make you think. i was picking things out of your list that i saw that you might not have been aware of.

if you have access to a good outfitter who has display models of everything, by all means go and try them on.

personally, my bag of choice for a thruhike with a late march/early april thruhike would be the WM alpinlite. since i'm so far south, and my 'northern' camping is restricted to the summer months, i own a slightly less-warm caribou. of course, i'm male, 5-10, 180#, and a cold sleeper. you are not all of those, but that's my take on it.

on another note, i've often used my bag, unzipped most of the way, as a quilt in my hammock... i tried that the other night when it was down in the mid-30s, and i ended up back inside... found out that i move around a lot more than i thought, and kept getting a cold blast of air on my legs when i rolled over... so i won't be using a quilt, but i guess they work for others. just not me.

HarleyHogPit

12-22-2005, 00:02

Top 3 choices are now:

-NF Hightail 900, 15F, 1 lb 12oz, $349
-Marmot Woman's Angel Fire, 15F, 2lb 10oz, $199
-WM Versalite Super, 10F, 2lb, $360

Smile

12-22-2005, 04:49

Take a look at the Marmot Helium regular - the dimensions are the same as the women's in this line! Except for the length. Compare with the Angelfire ( below).

A few things to consider about 'sizes'. Some of the "women's" bags have slightly wider hips (usually one-four inches depending on the brand) and smaller shoulder space than the mens....I find that the bag doesn't fit that much different than a regular and the extra shoulder space is really nice and traps lots of warmth - not to mention easier to move around in. The extra length in a 'regular' bag (6' compared to the WM 5'6) is sweet....especially if one is a side sleeper and likes to bend the legs, that space is important for not smashing toes or tightening the bag across your head/face - as well as creating a nice little air pocket to keep feet cozy, hold a nalgene of nice hot water or even 'bag dry' clothes - (which I do regularly on long distance hikes). I don't recommend a 5'6" bag if you are 5'5-5'6, it will be snug if you want to do anything but sleep on your back.

Also, the Marmot WM Angelfire is also 15 like the Helium(900 fill and 1.13), has a lower numberdown fill of 600 (weighs 2 lbs 10 oz) and has 58/58/38 measurement compared with the Reg. Heliums 62/58/40 = hips the same, gives you the extra room in the shoulder area and some extra room in the foot. Not too much difference but the price....ask about the 'floor' model at a local outfitter....industry talk has it the design is changing next year and they may want to sell it outright - can't hurt to try.

I have used this bag in the snow for the past two weeks over about six bag nights in temps from single digits to high 30's - the only thing I am considering is a sil nylon bag cover for the outside of it, adding minimal weight. The feature I thought I might not like, that has actually been great is the 1/2 zipper - less weight and chance of heat loss, just an extra second of escape time from the bag - and keeps the warmth in if you step outside for a midnight privy visit.

The whole bag purchase was probably the toughest for me, so many to choose from, charts on line can be confusing and it is IMO the most important piece of survival equipment one can carry in the cold, you need a warm bag in the spring.

Hope this helps you some, glad you have it down to three - that's awesome!

HarleyHogPit

12-22-2005, 11:59

Hope this helps you some, glad you have it down to three - that's awesome!

Hey Smile, thanks. I checked out the Helium and it sounds great. Then again all the bags sound good to me. They all seem so similar. I like the idea of extra room at the foot I didn't concider that point before. That is now on my list. It is $100 more than the most expensive one on my list now but I will check after Christmas. Who knows, they may have a sale or something. I'm not going to buy quite yet still need to sleep on it a bit.