Help me, PLEASE! Noob wants to go "ULTRALIGHT"

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Backstory: I consider myself an experienced hiker. I have made a point of learning from my previous overnight trips to dial in my gear for my comfort level. I have a summer BPW right now of 14 lbs and I'm happy. My brother wants to go hiking with me on the AT in April. My plan is to start him out with a quick overnight car camping trip or a short park-hike-camp and hike back trip. The next day or so we'll move up to hiking out about 5-6 miles, camping, then coming back. Eventually within a week or so I'd like to get him up to spending 2 nights out. My brother has never been backpacking, nor has he ever spent a night (much less two nights) in the woods. This is me getting his feet wet to even see if he likes it.

Situation: I made the mistake of mentioning "ultralight" to him in casual conversation, and now he has it in his head that he wants the most high-end, ultralight gear available. Also, money is no object to him. He believes that simply spending $$$ and getting the lightest gear known to man will make for a better backpacking experience. I have to note that he is FIXATED on this concept. Here's his reasoning: "If I have the lightest gear possible, I'll be able to carry the heavier stuff that'll make me comfortable". WHAT??? That defies the whole concept of ultral....NEVERMIND!

:confused:

I tried explaining to him that while he can get an ultralight sleeping pad (Thermarest ZLite), it won't be as comfortable or insulate him as well as a slightly heavier pad (like my 2.5" REI Flash pad). Or an ultralight Zpacks or Tarptent takes a little more consideration with regards to condensation and general care needed to protect the material. Or how a super lightweight sleeping bag/quilt may end up not being what he needs/wants.

I love him to death, but he is VERY stubborn & bullheaded. I told him he's in a great spot- I have extra gear that he can use while he decides if he even likes backpacking, that he can learn from the mistakes I made early on, "ultralight means sacrificing a certain amount of comfort while posessing a certain level of experience to utilize LESS gear", and "you're not hiking for more than 2 days so weight shouldn't be that much of a concern to you right now"...ad nauseum.

When I told him that REI wasn't going to be able to 100% outfit him with "ultralight" gear, he said "just show me the websites to buy the stuff and I'll ask them what I need". From complete strangers that are NOT going to be out there with you dealing with your potential gear failures? Cue my utter frustration.

Alright WB- I need your sage advice. Give me your opinion on this subject. If you think I'm off my mark, tell me. Whatever is said here will be shared with him, so feel free to dole out wisdom as you see fit.

If a guy in this situation came to you and said "I've NEVER been backpacking or camping, but I want to try it and I want all ultralight gear so I can carry a bunch of other comfort stuff", what would you tell him?

[Puddlefish]

Just do your best to teach him how to use it properly. Lend him some uncomfortable gear pre-hike and ask him to spend a night on his living room floor. He might change his tune about that restrictive mummy bag and half of a z-lite pad.

[Turtle-2013]

First a Disclaimer, I consider myself a lightweight, not UL hiker. Since I consider 10# Base Weight as the break-point, I'm 2# over at 12#. However, I think lightweight, or ultra light, in general means taking less "stuff", and relying on your experience ... as much as it is buying UL equipment. It means, figuring out with experience what you don't need, or want to carry. This is very consistent with what I believe you have said in your "essay". That said, if he isn't willing to listen to your words of experience ... then, you have tried, and he will probably have to learn by the school of hard knocks. So, my best advise, just make sure when he buys equipment, as least SOME of it is stuff you wish had ... that way why he bails, you might have some nice, slightly used, equipment :D .... seriously ... do your best, then don't take responsibility for your mistakes ... allow him to learn the same way you did ... the same way we all did .... with experience.

[RockDoc]

Just a warning, based on experience... ultralight is great in concept but in reality it is uncomfortable at best and very dangerous at worst if conditions are a worse than expected. But on easy trails and fine weather it is an excellent idea. (regrettably I seem to attract nasty weather like a magnet).

[garlic08]

Your bro's thinking is pretty much mainstream. One of the first articles on UL hiking I remember reading in Backpacker magazine pretty much outlined the same thinking--save weight here so you can carry more of this stuff our sponsors sell. Disgusting, I thought, but it's the way many people think. And they think I'm wrong, a risk-taking idiot.

You guys just have different ways of looking at it. I have five brothers and I'm pretty used to that.

[colorado_rob]

Just a warning, based on experience... ultralight is great in concept but in reality it is uncomfortable at best and very dangerous at worst if conditions are a worse than expected...Sorry, this is Utterly and completely untrue.

[archie]

A Minneapolis radio station has a preposterous statement tournament where outrageous statements face of in head to head completion via a bracket format, like March Madness.


Just a warning, based on experience... ultralight is great in concept but in reality it is uncomfortable at best and very dangerous at worst if conditions are a worse than expected. But on easy trails and fine weather it is an excellent idea. (regrettably I seem to attract nasty weather like a magnet).

This statement would be a shoe in to win.

[Feral Bill]

He will have to learn for himself. Get him one of the ultralight hiking books (Ray Jardine etc.) and take him out where he can't get himself too badly hurt. He'll figure it out.

[AO2134]

While on the trail, I have never thought "if ONLY my pack was only 1 lb lighter. . . ." Weight has never been an issue. I had my first nearly 30 mile day on a trail as a weekend warrior. If my pack was 1 lb (heck, I'd say 5 lbs) lighter, it would have made no impact on my hiking.

I am sure lower pack weight helps some, but to me it is utterly pointless. A needless money pit which does not in any way add to my hiking. For me, after about sub 30 lb pack, lower pack weight provided diminishing returns, if any.

For the record, my overnight pack weight with 2 liters of water is about 24 lbs during three season camping. My overnight pack weight with 2 liters of water is about 30-32 lbs in winter. I notice virtually no difference between my 32 lb pack and my 24 lb pack.

Let him learn for himself. It is his pack weight. So long as he is carrying it, what does it matter?

I understand he is your bro so you want to help him, but at the end of the day it sounds like he will do what he wants. Give him the best advice you can. He will either listen to it. Or he wont.

[Tundra]

I have some top quality, ultralight gear in good shape to outfit him in. There's lots of cuben fiber in this kit. Zpacks Zero pack (used only once on one overnight trip by original owner). A Solplex tent and a 20* degree xxl and wide quilt. This set up would include a titanium cook set with a alcohol stove and Ti cook pot and Ti spoon. I'll include an assortment of MLD cuben fiber stuff sacks, MLD rain mitts, NWO tags Golite, Selkirk vest, Black Diamond headlamp, Antigravity Gear, bear bag cord and rock-sack. I can include used Patagonia, Capilene clothing too; however some people don't like used clothing.

[Tundra]

Oops, I wasn't done. I can add some other odds and ends too. I'd sell this kit for around $1,500 if he's interested.

[Tundra]

I forgot to mention a Thermarest, Neoair, Xtherm and Montaine, Pertex wind-shirt.

[egilbe]

Let him spend the money. Buy it from him when he realizes hiking isn't for him. At a huge discount.


Or, you know, hike your own hike and all.

[Malto]

Not to be contrary but there are ways to do exactly what your brother is proposing to a degree. Here is how.

1) Start with a long day hike. What gear is needed. rain gear, small pack, couple extra layers, headlamp etc. maybe trekking poles.
2) long day hike plus an overnight. Need to add a pad, shelter and quilt or bag. May need a different pack to fit the gear.
3) multi-day. You MAY add cooking set and possibly a clothing item or two.

if you look at that progression much of the gear could be UL from the beginning.
- bag or quilt is an easy one.
- a lightweight pad like an neoair lite or xtherm is light AND comfortable.
- small items like headlamps, cook set are no brainers to start light.

Two areas that require experience to get right are the pack and especially the shelter. if you are willing to swap out packs during gear evolution, which most do then this isn't an issue. Sounds like money isn't an issue so no barrier there. that leaves the shelter. I would be very hesitant to recommend my shelter to an inexperienced hiker. but I would reco something like a tarptent IF the person was willing to do the progression listed at the beginning.

the key to the whole exercise is what isn't taken. Many are trying to make a conversion from Heavyweight, or military, gear to UL which I believe is harder to break the mindset then starting with no preconceived idea on what is right. There is also little downside unless the inexperienced UL hikers does something like go hike a long trail in winter If the gear is a failure then sell it. There is a good market for good UL gear.

By by the way, the list above is not all inclusive but was listed to make a point.

[bigcranky]

Ultralight isn't dangerous, and doesn't need to be uncomfortable, but it does assume a fair amount of experience and competence gained through multi-day backpacking trips with ever lighter loads.

If I had enough money, I could buy an F1 car and race it, but it would be a lot better/safer if I started in carts and got some experience first, no?

[Turtle-2013]

Ultralight isn't dangerous, and doesn't need to be uncomfortable, but it does assume a fair amount of experience and competence gained through multi-day backpacking trips with ever lighter loads.

If I had enough money, I could buy an F1 car and race it, but it would be a lot better/safer if I started in carts and got some experience first, no?

Ditto ... a good "mentor" can help shortcut the experience

[SouthMark]

While on the trail, I have never thought "if ONLY my pack was only 1 lb lighter. . . ." .

And while on the trail, I have never thought "if my pack was only heavier" but I have thought many times "I wish to hell it was lighter".



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[Cheyou]

Yes after resupply . I wish this was 1 lb lighter .

[Brewguy]

Check out www.adventurealan.com he has some nice gear lists which will make it easier for him.

http://www.adventurealan.com/appalachian-trail-gear-list/ This is an 8lb setup. I still don't think that is Ultralight but I suspect your brother is just thinking lightweight and not dialing in on a specific weight range.

[squeezebox]

I'm of the mind start hiking heavier, and as a person gains confidence they can leave stuff at home. There are the folks that pack too light and get rescued or that barely self-rescue. Safety 1st. But then the's the argument that with a 40 lb + pack that will definately affect your enjoyment.

[kimbur96]

It's going to be a learning process just like it was for you and still is for me. You can guide him but in the end he is going to buy what he wants. People with discretionary income are used to spending money on hobby stuff that may get used once and then sit on a shelf for years.

[Gambit McCrae]

I am taking my new in-law backpack Easter from Bland to Pearisburg. He has never been camping. He runs marathons so ability isn't an issue and I ignore peoples mental frustrations as they are mute to meaning success or failure. All that said, I believe from personal experience that people with the "money is not a concern" mentality? Are very difficult to persuade. I would simply state your objections once and let it go. When he decides he doesn't like backpacking, you just inherited some really nice camping gear.

And you are right, I would say that if you are seeking truly ultra light gear from REI in general? You are proving ignorance on the subject(not saying you are ignorant I am using "you" as whomever choses to do so. Most Ultra light gear is DIY and cottage companies.

I would also not worry so much about easing him into it if he is so gung-ho about starting out. Thro w him to the wolves and be tactful about when you release the "I told you so" but be sure to state it :)

Enjoy your sibling hiking time

[Water Rat]

Malto's idea is spot-on - Start from the bottom and work your way up, rather than starting at a full kit and trying to dial it down. If your brother has money to spend on gear then let him spend his money. He's an adult. Sometimes one has to learn the hard way that trying things before buying is a good idea.

If he is dead-set on Zpacks propose a road trip to let him see what he would be buying. Let him feel the gear to see if that is something that would work for him. On the same trip, take him to other manufacturers/outfitters and let him touch gear. Let him decide what he would be comfortable using. While you can't make his decision for him, you can at least steer him toward touching the gear before plunking down the money. Or, at the very least, go on a shopping trip with him and explain some of the pros and cons to each item he is interested in buying.

Leave out terms like "heavy as a brick" and "UL." Use the word comfortable instead. Only he can ultimately decide what the definition of that word is for himself.

[AO2134]

And while on the trail, I have never thought "if my pack was only heavier" but I have thought many times "I wish to hell it was lighter".



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I am sure many have. I am sure between lighter and heavier the better option (all other things being equal) would be lighter. Of course, all other things are not equal (namely, price).

I am simply giving my opinion that works for me. It runs contrary to the prevailing majority of hikers it seems. It runs in the face of the ultralight community, but I don't judge them for their light gear so I prefer not to be lectured or judged about my gear. It is plenty light enough for me. I can barely fell it.

I am sure the day will come when the difference between 30 lbs and 20 lbs will matter to me. I am growing older every day. I am positive it will happen, but today is not that day.

I once did a small 8 mile hike with a 40 lb training vest and my 25 lb. I wanted a good workout and feel what it was like to hike with that kind of pack. The difference between 65 lbs and 25 lbs was palpable, but even for the short 8 mile section it didn't impact me in the slightest. Climbing a little harder. Balance a little harder keep. That being said, if I was forced to do my average of 15-18 mpd, I imagine it would have been very difficult at first but certainly not impossible. Heck back in the day people used to hike with 70 lbs packs, I am no weaker than they were.

And having once forgot something in my car on accident, I can tell you I have thought "if only my pack was heavier, I could really use my headlamp right about now."

To be clear because I don't want people to miss my point: I am NOT saying you shouldn't go ultralight. I am saying you certainly may not HAVE to. Between two similarly priced items, I would pick the lighter option (all else being equal), but I wouldn't spend an extra $50 to "save" 1 lb of weight. Simply not worth it to me. I'd much rather keep my wallet nice and fat.

That is just my opinion.

[nsherry61]

. . . I would say that if you are seeking truly ultra light gear from REI in general? You are proving ignorance on the subject . . . Most Ultra light gear is DIY and cottage companies.
I can't let this one slip by. This forum is obviously very cottage industry oriented. Awesome! But, surprisingly bias.

I would agree that REI (and most outfitters) has done a poor job of truly embracing ultra-light gear and practices. But, that doesn't mean they don't make a lot of gear available that works well in an ultra-light kit, even if that gear is the minority of merchandise they sell. Frankly, ultra-light backpackers are also a minority of the people that walk in the door at REI.
I would further argue that most of the ultra-light kits out on the trail are built out of equipment that is readily available from REI and other outfitters.

The key to ultra-light is not so much the gear you buy as the gear you don't carry. Yes, some of the best gear available is either from cottage companies or DIY. There is also lots of excellent gear that is ultra-light, readily available and very workable from mainstream manufacturers.

Maybe we should have a contest with people designing ultra-light kits from REI (and/or other outfitters) and compare cost and weight and what they are made up of compared to kits exclusively cottage or DIY. It could be a fun exercise. Personally, my kits are primarily DIY and mainstream manufacturers combined because of ease of availability and cost. I expect the best overall kits are a combination of all of the above.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Ultralight isn't dangerous, and doesn't need to be uncomfortable, but it does assume a fair amount of experience and competence gained through multi-day backpacking trips with ever lighter loads.

If I had enough money, I could buy an F1 car and race it, but it would be a lot better/safer if I started in carts and got some experience first, no?

I tried explaining that. He eventually came around somewhat when I explained how lighter isn't necessarily more comfortable, and he should start out with the basics. Then he became concerned with getting all "top of the line" gear. Glad I didn't get him the subscription to Backpacker magazine. At this point I'm going to let him read this thread, make his own decisions, hike HIS hike, and maybe I'll get some sweet, gently used gear next year for my thru. :cool:

[shakey_snake]

Dunno. I don't think there's anything wrong with buying the best (i.e. light) gear once.

However, you probably don't need to be climbing Denali with it your first trip. :P

Just because someone doesn't want to repeat your steps into the world of hiking doesn't make them wrong.

UL gear even has a pretty safe secondary market (in the spring, anyways), so if he finds out he doesn't like backpacking, he's really not even making a poor financial decision.

[CarlZ993]

Let him buy the most expensive & lightest stuff on the market. When he decides backpacking isn't for him, it'll allow us (WB readers) an opportunity to buy some lightly used gear real cheap! ;)

[squeezebox]

About a month ago I asked my brother to release some money from our mother for me to buy a decent touring bicycle. He had the nerve to lecture me about the quality of bicycles. I've ridden 100K + miles. He maybe 100 miles. Sometimes stupid can't be fixed. Good luck with your brother.

[Mags]

I highly suggest this book. Simple, to the point and more of a general overview rather than gear specific.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0028Y536W/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?ie=UTF8&btkr=1 Only $7 on kindle.

There is a sequel of sorts, too, to refine the techniques a bit as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpackin-Tips-Inexpensive-Lightweight-ebook/dp/B00MJD6LVS/ref=pd_sim_351_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=510OiHqcg2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR107%2C160_&refRID=194FTSVPX24GTRM33EWW

[snicklefitz]

When I started gathering gear for my thru

[MuddyWaters]

Ultralight of yesteryear was a tarp, frameless sack, short section of CCF pad.

Ultralight of today permits an enclosed tarp shelter with netting, framed pack with decent capacity, inflatable mattress, high quality down quilt.

With enough $$$ that is.

You can buy ultralight today. Its not a big deal.
You need to understand the limitations of gear. When its not suitable, when it is, and how to make do in a pinch.
To some extent, thats always true with any gear.

[scrabbler]

Make sure he buy stuff that fits you too ... you might have an opportunity to get it cheaply soon. Kidding. People are adults. If he has the money and means, why should you care? HYOH.

[squeezebox]

He's still your brother educate / protect him if you can. Don't push too hard and really piss him off.

[Heliotrope]

Whenever we think we have more experience or knowledge does it make us obligated to save the beginner from the process of learning? I try not to offer unwanted advice. Hopefully your brother will come to share your love of hiking. That will be an awesome outcome. Let him do it his way.


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[futureatwalker]

Interesting thread.

For me, I'm sure like many others, gear purchases have been iterative. I've started with some things, and then as I had more experience I've replaced these.

I guess you could short-cut this experience somewhat, but the danger is that you end up with stuff that works well for someone else, but not for you.

I started with:

Kelty external frame pack
Sierra Designs -20 synthetic bag (yep, 5 lbs)
Coleman tent

This worked for hiking in the White Mountains, but was heavy. My next iteration was:

Lowe Alpine internal frame pack
North Face Blue Kazoo 20 degree down bag (3lbs)
Eureka one-man tent

This worked very well, and I still use these items for different trips. The pack is good for carrying somewhat heavier loads.

Next iteration:

U.L.A. pack
Blue Kazoo bag still
Sierra Designs 2-man tent

Again, this worked well. The pack is a lot lighter that the Lowe Alpine, and works well if my load isn't too heavy. I saw people carrying it on the A.T. when I did a section, and was intrigued. The tent I bought from Campmor, as my old Eureka couldn't withstand heavy rain anymore.

Next iteration:

U.L.A. pack
Z-packs 20 degree sleeping bag (birthday present!)
Tarptent notch

Here I wanted to lose some weight from my old Blue Kazoo bag - which I still use regularly. The Tarptent works great, but if the forecast was for unending cold rain, I might swap in my Sierra Design tent, as it has both an inner tent and outer fly.

I guess my point is that it takes a little time to work out what works for you, and the conditions you regularly encounter. So you can spend a lot of money before you start, but you might be better served to try things first, if possible, and then take the plunge.

[garlic08]

Whenever we think we have more experience or knowledge does it make us obligated to save the beginner from the process of learning? I try not to offer unwanted advice...

Yes, very wise. I once heard that unsolicited advice only benefits the person giving it!

But it's so hard not to chime in when you see someone struggling with the same mistake you made years ago.

[Traveler]

I can't let this one slip by. This forum is obviously very cottage industry oriented. Awesome! But, surprisingly bias.

I would agree that REI (and most outfitters) has done a poor job of truly embracing ultra-light gear and practices. But, that doesn't mean they don't make a lot of gear available that works well in an ultra-light kit, even if that gear is the minority of merchandise they sell. Frankly, ultra-light backpackers are also a minority of the people that walk in the door at REI.
I would further argue that most of the ultra-light kits out on the trail are built out of equipment that is readily available from REI and other outfitters.

The key to ultra-light is not so much the gear you buy as the gear you don't carry. Yes, some of the best gear available is either from cottage companies or DIY. There is also lots of excellent gear that is ultra-light, readily available and very workable from mainstream manufacturers.

Maybe we should have a contest with people designing ultra-light kits from REI (and/or other outfitters) and compare cost and weight and what they are made up of compared to kits exclusively cottage or DIY. It could be a fun exercise. Personally, my kits are primarily DIY and mainstream manufacturers combined because of ease of availability and cost. I expect the best overall kits are a combination of all of the above.

Good points all! I suspect one of the limiting factors to UL gear at REI and other large retailers is the market for UL gear. The percentage of people who use backpacking gear are weekenders and section hikers who are less concerned about weight is significant over those who are doing long distance treks.

However, you make a great point that its not necessarily the gear you carry but the stuff you don't carry is pretty much the crux of the issue.

[damskipi]

I guess I don't really see the problem. Many times, using the ultralight item is the same as the non-UL item except in price. Examples: sleeping bag (2lb down bag requires no more skill than 3lb down bag), stove, headlamp, stuff sacks, clothing, etc. There may be a big difference between a Zpacks Arc Haul and a Gregory Contour 60, but the main difference between that same Gregory Contour 60 and an Arcteryx Altra 65 is 17 oz (and $300 more for the Altra...). And there is NO REASON for people to start out making the mistake of carrying a Zippo instead of a Bic Mini, 5lb leather boots, 1lb FAK, etc.

So why not have him start with mostly ultralight items? Sure, he probably shouldn't get a GG Thinlight sleeping pad to start, but he would do well with an Xlite or Xtherm. Just direct him to that stuff. It's plenty expensive enough for him to feel he is getting "the best."

[Dogwood]

Here is what your brother "needs" to buy: ULTRALIGHT Locus CTF3 Hapi shelter, ULTRALIGHT 60L Arc Blast Hybrid CF with accessorized CF hipbelt pouches or ULTRALIGHT Hyperlight Mountain Gear Southwest Windrider(tall torso, large waist belt), ULTRALIGHT Katabatic Alsek 22* Long w/ hydrophobic 850 fp down, ULTRALIGHT Komperdell Vario 4 Carbon Trekking poles, ULTRALIGHT Feathered Friends Snow Bunting EX 0* Long w/ customized 1/4 length zip, and ULTRALIGHT Hoka Clifton 2 size 14 in Grey/Orange(if his shoe size is smaller stuff socks in toe boxes, it's the UL way).

See me in 6 months. I may buy it all. After all proficiently going ULTRALIGHT is all about gear, right? :-? :confused: :D

People need to grasp UL backpacking involves more than gear. It's a mindset, an integration of gear, skills, techniques, and various systems. REPEAT: skills, techniques, and various systems ie; (Knowledge and Wisdom) integrated with appropriate gear. Ignoring this larger context as some(MANY?) do isolating gear as if "that's what defines UL...PERIOD" is problematic. See it a lot... hasty buying of the latest greatest UL gear. Avoid impulsive shopping and having a "I need immediate UL satisfaction with UL being solely defined by gear" mindset. This includes anyone telling you what you "need" to buy! IMHO, what serves the most people the most amount of good is recognizing going to lighter wt kits is more of a journey - more of a road always under construction - rather than a destination. This slows people down to contemplate, more deeply consider, EVOLVE, etc

I'd tell my bro "WHOA put down the credit card, think not only in terms of purchasing gear", OR, if he elects to ignore this larger contextual advice, buy stuff I can re-buy from him at a deep discount after he finds the ULTRALIGHT gear he bought maybe isn't all what he conceptualized.

FWIW, it sounds like your bro isn't adopting a UL mindset across the board anyway. Sounds like he wants to justify bringing some "heavy creature comfort stuff" by balancing out the overall wt with some lighter wt gear. Who's saying he can't do that?

If your bro is still adamant tell him I have a 2003 ULTRALIGHT Dodge Ram 2500 Pick Up with carbon fiber tires, titanium steering wheel, and cuben fiber covered seats I'll sell him to get him in ULTRALIGHT style to the TH!

[brendathompson71]

I am also new to utralight backpacking (I'm getting there) my understanding is focus on CUTTING back on items you bring and going lighter with the 3 main weight items, PACK, TENT and BAG. I bring my dog so i like a tent (she gets to spooked without one) but you can go a lot cheaper with a tarp. a great book to read is Ray Jardines lightweight backpacking. but as far as your brother... he is new he doesn't even know if he even will enjoy it, no reason to spend more then what he needs to spend... but on another note... IF he does go with Zpacks, Trail Desogns, montbell, Gossamer gear or Enlightened Equipment and ends up not loving backpacking LOL let me know I'll buy some of it from him. :)

[QiWiz]

He could certainly get a light or even ultralight shelter, pack, cooking system, and sleep system. However, the reason to do this is not to add back things that are heavier for "comfort". Tell him QiWiz said so. If he doesn't believe you, maybe he'll believe an "expert".

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Here is what your brother "needs" to buy: ULTRALIGHT Locus CTF3 Hapi shelter, ULTRALIGHT 60L Arc Blast Hybrid CF with accessorized CF hipbelt pouches or ULTRALIGHT Hyperlight Mountain Gear Southwest Windrider(tall torso, large waist belt), ULTRALIGHT Katabatic Alsek 22* Long w/ hydrophobic 850 fp down, ULTRALIGHT Komperdell Vario 4 Carbon Trekking poles, ULTRALIGHT Feathered Friends Snow Bunting EX 0* Long w/ customized 1/4 length zip, and ULTRALIGHT Hoka Clifton 2 size 14 in Grey/Orange(if his shoe size is smaller stuff socks in toe boxes, it's the UL way).

See me in 6 months. I may buy it all. After all proficiently going ULTRALIGHT is all about gear, right? :-? :confused: :D

People need to grasp UL backpacking involves more than gear. It's a mindset, an integration of gear, skills, techniques, and various systems. REPEAT: skills, techniques, and various systems ie; (Knowledge and Wisdom) integrated with appropriate gear. Ignoring this larger context as some(MANY?) do isolating gear as if "that's what defines UL...PERIOD" is problematic. See it a lot... hasty buying of the latest greatest UL gear. Avoid impulsive shopping and having a "I need immediate UL satisfaction with UL being solely defined by gear" mindset. This includes anyone telling you what you "need" to buy! IMHO, what serves the most people the most amount of good is recognizing going to lighter wt kits is more of a journey - more of a road always under construction - rather than a destination. This slows people down to contemplate, more deeply consider, EVOLVE, etc

I'd tell my bro "WHOA put down the credit card, think not only in terms of purchasing gear", OR, if he elects to ignore this larger contextual advice, buy stuff I can re-buy from him at a deep discount after he finds the ULTRALIGHT gear he bought maybe isn't all what he conceptualized.

FWIW, it sounds like your bro isn't adopting a UL mindset across the board anyway. Sounds like he wants to justify bringing some "heavy creature comfort stuff" by balancing out the overall wt with some lighter wt gear. Who's saying he can't do that?

If your bro is still adamant tell him I have a 2003 ULTRALIGHT Dodge Ram 2500 Pick Up with carbon fiber tires, titanium steering wheel, and cuben fiber covered seats I'll sell him to get him in ULTRALIGHT style to the TH!

Dogwood, you killed it!

He mentioned wanting to go UL so he could bring other stuff like 2 1L Smartwater bottles, food (2 pounds of beef jerky) an extra battery for his phone, wet wipes, etc....I didn't even get a chance to tell him that was all going to be figured into his pack weight. The cart got in front of the horse a little bit, but if I can get 10 minutes of his undivided attention, we may be able to get back on track.

[brendathompson71]

read Ray Jardines BOOK
and look at 2 things ... 1 What do you REALLY need?
and 2 your top 3 weight places (pack, bag and tent)

[BonBon]

I'm of the mind start hiking heavier, and as a person gains confidence they can leave stuff at home.

This^. I had never backpacked when I hiked the trail, and frankly- you just don't know what you don't know. My pack was a full 20 pounds lighter in Maine than it was in Georgia- but NOBODY could convince me that I didn't need all that crap at the beginning of the trail. My next hike- I am going UL. Pack weight was a big problem that I worked on and learned much about as I went. The only "luxury" item I had left in Maine..town mascara. And a book.