Whites Fatality - Icy out there

[peakbagger]

The Castle Ravine trail departs from the Randolph path just off the AT (Gulfside) at Edmunds Col which is just North on the AT from Jefferson in the whites. Randolph Path is one of the access routes to the Perch campsite for NOBOs. http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?57509-Edmunds-Col-Fatality

Since it was a solo accident the details may never be known but recent weather in the whites has caused most high trails to be solid ice. Numerous trail reports are indicating that Kahtoola microspikes are entirely inadequate for the current conditions on some trails where they normally are adequate. The lack of snow on the summits leads many to assume that the conditions are spring like but its still winter up high. I will take packed snow over ice any day.

[nsherry61]

I would hope they can determine if a fall was involved or if there was a heart attack or some other event, probably topped off with cold.

Having been up there myself that morning (Saturday), but on the other side of Jefferson (with about 100 other people), yeah, it's icy and there are areas of packed and loose snow. Most people were using crampons. A few of us were still in micro-spikes. Some people were just using snowshoes. You gotta know your limits and the limits of your gear, but, micro-spikes with a little bit of skill are a capable tool, and frankly, on the north/west sides of the mountains, near treeline, where there are lots of rocks exposed right now, micro-spikes are probably safer than crampons.

[Slo-go'en]

The Castle Ravine trail is a nasty trail which is difficult in the summer on dry rocks. I can't imagine being on it under current conditions without ice climbing gear. The weather over the weekend was pretty nice all in all, but earlier in the week it was pretty nasty.

I prefer 8 point crampons, four front points and four rear points with a flexible band connecting the two. These allow you walk on rocks easier without tripping up. But since my plastic double boots fell apart, I can't use them anymore.

[Puddlefish]

His website (http://www.northeastmountainguides.com/about_us) He knew what he was getting into. Died doing what he loved at least.

[Traveler]

Gear is only part of the issue, bet it crampons, microspikes, or snowshoes. Knowing the limitations of that gear is still only a part of it. Few things will help rectify a single poor decision, which is most of the issue in most instances.

[colorado_rob]

His website (http://www.northeastmountainguides.com/about_us) He knew what he was getting into. Died doing what he loved at least.Amen to that. RIP comrade.

"Stuff" happens, even to the best equipped, the best trained, the most experienced. What this guy did was sometimes a bit "out there" and of course risky, his choice. Is it a "poor decision" to push these limits a bit? To some, sure. To others, no, myself included.

It saddens me when folks give the dearly departed a monday-morning-quarterbacking, post-mortem hard time.

[Traveler]

Not sure what you are trying to say, that we should just accept the fact this fellow died and leave it there, or are you supportive of learning as much about the indecent to increase the body of knowledge of these types of situations?

[burger]

The Castle Ravine trail departs from the Randolph path just off the AT (Gulfside) at Edmunds Col which is just North on the AT from Jefferson in the whites. Randolph Path is one of the access routes to the Perch campsite for NOBOs. http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?57509-Edmunds-Col-Fatality

Since it was a solo accident the details may never be known but recent weather in the whites has caused most high trails to be solid ice. Numerous trail reports are indicating that Kahtoola microspikes are entirely inadequate for the current conditions on some trails where they normally are adequate. The lack of snow on the summits leads many to assume that the conditions are spring like but its still winter up high. I will take packed snow over ice any day.

I'm just curious as to what sort of conditions would be inadequate for microspikes? I've used them on everything from glaze ice to mushy snow (admittedly, they're not great on mushy snow, but nothing really is). Was there some sort of vertical climbing?

[Malto]

I'm just curious as to what sort of conditions would be inadequate for microspikes? I've used them on everything from glaze ice to mushy snow (admittedly, they're not great on mushy snow, but nothing really is). Was there some sort of vertical climbing?

I ran into sheer ice conditions on rock slabs a year ago that microspikes couldn't touch. Ended up doing marginal butt sliding down the "Cliff". I would love to have had my crampons to see if those would have bit better into the ice. I know I trust crampons more than microspikes given microspikes will slide around on shoes.

[colorado_rob]

Not sure what you are trying to say, that we should just accept the fact this fellow died and leave it there, or are you supportive of learning as much about the indecent to increase the body of knowledge of these types of situations?I had a slight peeve at your implying that some sort of "poor decision" was involved. Perhaps I misread.

I'm always for learning how to avoid tragedies, but in this case how could we possibly know at this point? Is there a piece of info there that says, for example, that this poor soul didn't have proper gear, like crampons? I would be very surprised if this were so. IF indeed so, then yeah, perhaps an actual poor decision was involved.

Perhaps more details will shed some light, and perhaps I was a bit gruff.

[Slo-go'en]

I'm just curious as to what sort of conditions would be inadequate for microspikes? I've used them on everything from glaze ice to mushy snow (admittedly, they're not great on mushy snow, but nothing really is). Was there some sort of vertical climbing?

Castle ravine is a jumble of giant boulders near the bottom and then some very steep ledge mid way to the Col. It's a difficult trail to go down, even in the summer.

It's unclear when the accident happened. Friday was a bad weather day. It's plausible that he was attempting a traverse and decided to bail down the Castle Ravine trail. Since he was found near tree line, it's possible he slipped and slid down to the bottom and cracked his head on rock. But since they had to take him to the Medical Examiner's office to determine cause of death, apparently there were no obvious signs of physical trauma, like a broken limb or caved in skull.

But what really surprised me was that were actually people out hiking that trail, this time of year. It's not a commonly used trail at any time of year and if those two who found him hadn't gone down that way, he's be there until summer or maybe never found if he got washed down under some of the boulders.

[Traveler]

I had a slight peeve at your implying that some sort of "poor decision" was involved. Perhaps I misread.

I'm always for learning how to avoid tragedies, but in this case how could we possibly know at this point? Is there a piece of info there that says, for example, that this poor soul didn't have proper gear, like crampons? I would be very surprised if this were so. IF indeed so, then yeah, perhaps an actual poor decision was involved.

Perhaps more details will shed some light, and perhaps I was a bit gruff.

Ah, gotcha. No, the comment was not directed at the individual, but at circumstances when people figure they have the proper gear and know its limitations. The best and latest gear will not protect someone from a poor decision, which is typically the link in the chain that we have the most control over. The White Mountains see this routinely and it bears repeating, or the observance of cautionary tales like that of Kate Matrosova.

To borrow a phrase, the mountains are not necessarily dangerous in and of themselves, much like the sea or air, they are simply intolerant of mistakes or carelessness. As I get older I see a lot more wisdom in that than I did when I was 35.

[Water Rat]

Unfortunately, there is an article that says, "An autopsy conducted Tuesday found that Hallock died of hypothermia."
An autopsy conducted Tuesday found that Hallocked died of hypothermia - See more at: http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20160302/NEWHAMPSHIRE03/160309864&source=RSS#sthash.HJrsHuNF.dpuf

An autopsy conducted Tuesday found that Hallocked died of hypothermia - See more at: http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20160302/NEWHAMPSHIRE03/160309864&source=RSS#sthash.HJrsHuNF.dpuf


http://www.unionleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20160302/NEWHAMPSHIRE03/160309864&source=RSS

[Water Rat]

Wow - that post turned out funky...

[peakbagger]

I'm just curious as to what sort of conditions would be inadequate for microspikes? I've used them on everything from glaze ice to mushy snow (admittedly, they're not great on mushy snow, but nothing really is). Was there some sort of vertical climbing?

Kahtoolas microspikes are great traction devices and when new out of the box may have some ability on hard ice but they rapidly lose it. The actual traction blocks are independent and they tend to twist and roll. Ideally on hard ice you want spikes perpendicular to the ice that stay perpendicular. The Hillsound versions have segmented plates with actual short spikes that work somewhat better and importantly stay perpendicular to the ice so they retain better bite. Nevertheless the plates are centered under the heel and the ball of the foot and don't have lot of width. They are better than Kahtoolas but any sort of crust on the snow can overwhelm the spikes. Crampons on the other hand have longer spikes that are distributed far more widely under the boot and they are far more likely to stay perpendicular to the ice. Another significant difference is that the downhill tractions of microspikes are far worse then crampons as only the heel is doing much. The trade off with crampons is that they impose limitations in walking speed. A slow deliberate pace is generally best to avoid catching spikes on clothing or on rocks sticking up as many folks have a tough time picking up their feet. I have flexible crampons used with flexible boots, the span between contact points can really pound on the arches after a few hours.

Many folks are pushing the limits with microspikes particularly with Kahtoolas. A few weeks back I was heading up the summit cone of Lafayette which was a solid ice flow down the trail bed with bare boulders sticking up. I had Kahtoolas and a friend had Hillsounds, It was obvious he had better traction. At some point I had to stop and put on my crampons. Many other folks had Kahtoolas and they all were having a tough time but made it to the summit. Heading down was another story, many people we encountered were doing semi controlled slides down ice flows. Not good when the run off is rocks. On trail like Ammo Ravine trail it real obvious, folks with microspikes tend to stay to the sides of the trail while those with Crampoons (and even Hillsounds on the right day ) can tromp right up the ice flows.

The reality is that microspikes are good 90% of the time in typical white mountain winter conditions but the current conditions aren't typical on the high summits. If someone is realistic and turns around when they encounter the 10% when microspikes are inadequate, great, but the reality is most folks being most of the way to the summit are going to push it and 99% of the them will make it home. Unfortunately, that means 1% may not.

Even with perfect gear it just takes one stumble in the right place to trip and fall down. If someone hits their head on rock and is knocked unconscious in cold conditions, unless someone is with them, its game over.

[psyculman]

I was up Lowe's with a group of 4 on Feb. 5-7. It was my 5th winter trip to GK. There is very thin snow cover, so for traction, it means rock and ice. But, the ice over rock in places was very thin, and broke up, making 'ice-cube' like cover. Both crampons and micro spikes dulled quickly, and for the trip down, were quite unreliable. To add to the fun, there was no snow to slide down at the really steep sections, making a side detour through the brush necessary. Again presenting difficulty. With mountaineering boots, it was a difficult and slow in places. the last 4 winters there was about 4' + of snow, which evened out the trail, and made for good traction over ice, and filled in rocky spots. In the first mile of Lowe's there was no snow at all. The brook crossings were on rock, and leaf cover matted up in crampons, but, at the same time, there was enough ice to need some traction. I have been up the trail he was on in summer, can't imagine that this winter. The ice formations are formidable this season, and in the future if there is not more snow, I won't be attempting the trip. Even with a group.

[Another Kevin]

I ran into sheer ice conditions on rock slabs a year ago that microspikes couldn't touch. Ended up doing marginal butt sliding down the "Cliff". I would love to have had my crampons to see if those would have bit better into the ice. I know I trust crampons more than microspikes given microspikes will slide around on shoes.

I know what trip Malto is talking about, and he's right. The forecast weather combined with the fact that I'd brought only microspikes was a secondary reason that I bailed. A stomach bug was an even more convincing reason. I haven't done that particular pitch where he wiped out in heavy ice, but I've done similar ones in the Catskills. There have been times that those of us with crampons have rigged a static line and ascenders so that those who brought only microspikes could cross an icy pitch safely - and admonished them, "next time, bring full traction gear!"

The difference between microspikes and full crampons is possibly even bigger than the difference between going bare-booted and wearing microspikes.

If you need crampons, you need an ice axe. Poles are not safe traction when the ice is that bad.

In the East, you need steel crampons (and a small machinist's file to keep them sharp). We always have exposed bits of rock, and our conditions just eat aluminium ones.

[Slo-go'en]

We had a slush storm yesterday followed by single digit temps over night. Conditions up there must be nuts right now. It's gonna take me an hour just to get into my car latter, but at least I got most of the slush off my driveway before it turned into concrete!

[roxylem]

Hi all. New to White Blaze. My husband, Snakestepper, and I, Mariposa, are planning a flip-flop thru-hike soon. The count-down is 29 days as of tomorrow, when we leave our cozy, high-desert home in AZ for the trip to Springer Mt. I am enjoying the forums and have picked up some great info. Our other two thru-hikes have been much shorter, 800 mile AZ Trail and about 500 mile Colorado Trail, but we are gung-ho and basically ready. I am 68 and SS is a child of 67. Just wanted to Hi. Hope to see some of you on the Trail. Peace!!