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NewHeart
03-07-2016, 08:37
Preparing to leave Springer April 26, I want to know if Bear Spray is needed? They should be out of their winter dens and active, so your opinion is needed.

SouthMark
03-07-2016, 08:46
Absolutely NO!


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Lone Wolf
03-07-2016, 08:46
no. not needed

Turtle-2013
03-07-2016, 08:49
I'm a section hiker ... have hiked from Springer nearly to NJ ... I have seen bears, occasionally. BUT, I have not, nor would I ever carry bear spray at least in the southern states ... generally ignore the bears, hang you stuff when in a "bear area', and the bears will ignore you. I can't speak from experience about the northern section, but I doubt I will carry anything there either. Just be smart, and you will never have any use for bear spray in the Eastern US.

GoldenBear
03-07-2016, 09:59
Here's my response

https://youtu.be/_H-xrI9O1FY?t=2m19s

ddanko2
03-07-2016, 10:24
only if you want to spray the ultra lighters

NewHeart
03-07-2016, 11:40
Thanks a bunch guys!

turtle fast
03-07-2016, 11:52
Realistically it isn't needed. Apart from the weight of the item that may never get used. The issue is more psychological human and bear. We've been conditioned as humans to be wary of these large powerful animals and bears too have adapted. I've ran into dozens of black bears on the AT and they are more skiddish as they are hunted by humans for food and to control ultimately the population. If you look down trail sometes I'd see them jumping down out of trees and running away before most people would see them. Many AT hikers never get the pleasure to see a bear. If in camp and one does come to snoop around; banging pots pans and yelling at it many times works. Bears are ultimately instinctual so I wouldn't advocate running away (mimicks prey) with arms flailing and yelling. As well as getting in between a mamma and her cub is a no-no.
Rember this is a generalization, and like on the human population you can get an "unbalanced" bear. If that was the case, I doubt pepper spray would do little to deter something like that but make the bear angrier. And you tastier with a hint of hot sauce.

Hoofit
03-07-2016, 12:23
Bear Spray? Remember this.....bears are our friends....if you sprayed some crap at me and the wind or your fearful aim was off that day.....I' m gonnna charge at you and tear you up! Just give them space, it's their home, we are just temporary visitors....Better to just back away and NEVER get between mom and her kids/Cubs because any Mom will protect her young, just like you would. Brown bears, different story but that's not a problem on the AT.

Ktaadn
03-07-2016, 12:45
Realistically it isn't needed. Apart from the weight of the item that may never get used. The issue is more psychological human and bear. We've been conditioned as humans to be wary of these large powerful animals and bears too have adapted. I've ran into dozens of black bears on the AT and they are more skiddish as they are hunted by humans for food and to control ultimately the population. If you look down trail sometes I'd see them jumping down out of trees and running away before most people would see them. Many AT hikers never get the pleasure to see a bear. If in camp and one does come to snoop around; banging pots pans and yelling at it many times works. Bears are ultimately instinctual so I wouldn't advocate running away (mimicks prey) with arms flailing and yelling. As well as getting in between a mamma and her cub is a no-no.
Rember this is a generalization, and like on the human population you can get an "unbalanced" bear. If that was the case, I doubt pepper spray would do little to deter something like that but make the bear angrier. And you tastier with a hint of hot sauce.

So, bear spray? No. Pots and pans? Yes. OK, thanks.

Tennessee Viking
03-07-2016, 12:49
Not really. If you encounter a bear just give them your pack.

sadlowskiadam
03-07-2016, 13:05
It is not needed and past Neel's gap, I did not see a single thru hiker who carried it. During my entire 2013 thru hike, I did not see a single bear...which was actually frustrating and disappointing.

Roamin
03-07-2016, 13:19
I have come across one bear in GA. Believe it or not, I smelled the bear long before I saw it. My nephew was amazed at my "mountain man " skills! I imagine the bear's thought was similar to my own.... "Oh wow. look, a human!" If he had thumbs and knew how to work a digital camera, he would have been just like me, fumbling to get it out and then huff when he missed the picture. At no point did I consider I needed bear spray. Lesson learned, just have your camera ready....

tdoczi
03-07-2016, 13:32
the good news- no one has said "if it makes you feel better, whats the harm?" yet. but i'm sure someone will soon.

the bad news- it seems its time to bust out this link again- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

Traillium
03-07-2016, 14:08
it seems it's time to bust out this link again- http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html

Yep — read the article and view the video!


Bruce Traillium

Tipi Walter
03-07-2016, 14:39
only if you want to spray the ultra lighters

Or mere dayhikers. When a bear gets ready to eat a human burrito and you spray him in the face, you're just adding texas pete to his meal.

I'm a newb idiot cuz I keep all my food in my tent vestibule overnight which I do not recommend, especially in the Smokies where bears are numerous and not hunted.

Several months ago I was camping on the Sycamore Creek section of the BMT and a big black bear turned right off the trail and casually walked right up to my tent and stopped 10 feet in front of me as I was sitting in the tent vestibule preparing dinner. It was like Mr Magoo and he didn't see me until he tripped over the tent. I caught a pic of him running up a hill away from camp but no priceless pic of him in camp.

I was like Will Ferrell in Zoolander:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1DzZ7oShl4

Anyway, after the encounter I was shopping in walmart (but why?) and picked up a perhaps totally useless personal pepper (bear?) spray in tiny size (and pink!) which I now keep in my pack lid pocket because I like the extra weight and it will never be used . . . and dropped only once. (A good line from Full Metal Jacket).

https://www.sabrered.com/sites/default/files/HC-PINK-1-LS_2.jpg
Post Test: Can you find the pink spray canister?? It's exactly what I carry. Btw, this is NOT ME. My little spray can is only carried on backpacking trips in case you're confused. This pic from---

https://www.sabrered.com/pepper-spray/key-case-pepper-spray-quick-release-key-ring

NewHeart
03-07-2016, 16:11
OK I think I got the idea. One more thing, Ursack White or Ursack Minor?

Ktaadn
03-07-2016, 16:35
I've used the Minor for a few years. I like it. No issues. I have no idea if anything has ever tried to chew on it.

GreenBlaze
03-07-2016, 17:15
only if you want to spray the ultra lighters

/lol gold!

SouthMark
03-07-2016, 18:25
only if you want to spray the ultra lighters

You'll never get close to the ultra lighters. They will be so far ahead of you on the trail.

Odd Man Out
03-07-2016, 18:40
You'll never get close to the ultra lighters. They will be so far ahead of you on the trail.

Just like the bears. You only see their rumors as the run away f r om you.

Odd Man Out
03-07-2016, 18:41
Oops. That's supposed to be rumps

Cue
03-16-2016, 09:29
If it makes you feel more secure, than carry it. It also works extremely well on humans.

Contrary to "purists", I carry a SPOT gps locator. It weighs next to nothing and like bear spray, it is better to have if you need it than not. Especially if you're like me and hike alone.

Uncle Joe
03-16-2016, 09:36
I wouldn't camp in NJ without bear spray.

rafe
03-16-2016, 09:39
Never carried the stuff, myself. In all my years of hiking I've only met one bear up close and personal, and it was a great experience.

Sarcasm the elf
03-16-2016, 09:49
I wouldn't camp in NJ without bear spray.


If you meet a bear in Jersey just pul out your camera, those things are terrified of having their picture taken! :D But seriously, I did meet bears down there as did almost everyone I met, nobody had any problems.

Uncle Joe
03-16-2016, 09:54
If you meet a bear in Jersey just pul out your camera, those things are terrified of having their picture taken! :D But seriously, I did meet bears down there as did almost everyone I met, nobody had any problems.

Maybe a comfort thing. I hear about attacks there and would rather be comfortable. Same for Chilhowee. I probably wouldn't camp there without it because I know there's been an attack there. I don't carry it in GA, FWIW. My buddy had a beautiful Audio catch fire and burn. I'll never buy an Audi. Can't get that out of my head, can't un-hear about bear attacks in NJ.

Sarcasm the elf
03-16-2016, 09:59
Maybe a comfort thing. I hear about attacks there and would rather be comfortable. Same for Chilhowee. I probably wouldn't camp there without it because I know there's been an attack there. I don't carry it in GA, FWIW. My buddy had a beautiful Audio catch fire and burn. I'll never buy an Audi. Can't get that out of my head, can't un-hear about bear attacks in NJ.

It's funny that you put it that way. I'm from the northeast and al totally comfortable with the bears up here. When I was down in Georgia I was worried (irrationally) about the wild hogs and had considered getting bear spray for that reason. Just fear of the unknown I guess. :eek:

Also I do recommend saving up to buy an Audi. Then buy a subaru instead and finance a thru hike with the money you saved.:D

Uncle Joe
03-16-2016, 10:06
It's funny that you put it that way. I'm from the northeast and al totally comfortable with the bears up here. When I was down in Georgia I was worried (irrationally) about the wild hogs and had considered getting bear spray for that reason. Just fear of the unknown I guess. :eek:

Also I do recommend saving up to buy an Audi. Then buy a subaru instead and finance a thru hike with the money you saved.:D

I worried about bears when I first started hiking but not as worried as I used to be here in GA. Hogs don't worry me. They're not likely to come looking for you or even necessarily be curious about you. They're pretty much nose-down, focused. But as you say, familiarity.

I had an Outback and just switched to a Jeep! Love the Outback, actually, but wanted more clearance and ruggedness. Though I took that Outback on some adventures! In fact, as a second car I still keep my eyes out for a used Outback or Forester.

Slo-go'en
03-16-2016, 10:41
I've never encountered a hog down south, but after seeing the heads mounted on the wall in the Lodge at Fontana Village, I sure the heck am glad I never have. Those beasts are huge and really scary looking. At least bears are kind of cute :)

saltysack
03-16-2016, 11:47
Not sure why all the hype about hogs n bears....neither is a concern......much safer in the woods than in civilization!!!


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Sarcasm the elf
03-16-2016, 12:10
Not sure why all the hype about hogs n bears....neither is a concern......much safer in the woods than in civilization!!!


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What can I say, we have a fascination with dangerous and delicious animals. :cool:

saltysack
03-16-2016, 12:14
Pork is good but bear is naaaaaasty......I used to hunt. The last animal I shot w bow was a black bear in Canada years ago....haven't killed anything since........


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MuddyWaters
03-16-2016, 12:50
Hogs arent a worry in the least. They are extremely wary usually. Now if you have snared one, or have one in a trap, then yeah, boars will hang around to protect it.

saltysack
03-16-2016, 13:37
Worry about the hillbilly with three teeth and a banjo!!! Squeal boy!!!


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Offshore
03-16-2016, 15:36
If you meet a bear in Jersey just pul out your camera, those things are terrified of having their picture taken! :D But seriously, I did meet bears down there as did almost everyone I met, nobody had any problems.

There are a ton of bears in NJ and they seem to be losing their fear of humans. Last Labor Day weekend I ran into a bear at base of Waywayanda mountain - at the foot of the Stairway to Heaven. This is one of the most heavily used portions of the AT in NJ. In addition to the hundred or so hikers on the Stairway, there was a music festival going on at a farm adjacent to the AT on Route 94. All of this within about 500 yards from the bear and it didn't faze it at all. Later that day, I ran into a sow and two cubs on the Pochuck Boardwalk - again, one of the most used sections of the AT. I almost always seen bears, but this was extra special. I've read up on what to do in case of an encounter, carry a small air horn in my hip belt pocket and a Storm whistle - and hope for the best.

People should be aware that possession of any more that 3/4 ounce of pepper spray, including bear spray, is a felony in NJ. (although the local REIs still sell it...) Its the same penalty as carrying an unlicensed firearm - so if you're going to risk the penalty, go for the firepower!

saltysack
03-16-2016, 15:41
There are a ton of bears in NJ and they seem to be losing their fear of humans. Last Labor Day weekend I ran into a bear at base of Waywayanda mountain - at the foot of the Stairway to Heaven. This is one of the most heavily used portions of the AT in NJ. In addition to the hundred or so hikers on the Stairway, there was a music festival going on at a farm adjacent to the AT on Route 94. All of this within about 500 yards from the bear and it didn't faze it at all. Later that day, I ran into a sow and two cubs on the Pochuck Boardwalk - again, one of the most used sections of the AT. I almost always seen bears, but this was extra special. I've read up on what to do in case of an encounter, carry a small air horn in my hip belt pocket and a Storm whistle - and hope for the best.

People should be aware that possession of any more that 3/4 ounce of pepper spray, including bear spray, is a felony in NJ. (although the local REIs still sell it...) Its the same penalty as carrying an unlicensed firearm - so if you're going to risk the penalty, go for the firepower!

That's all we don't need are a bunch of scarred hikers carrying pistols...a Kevlar tent is too damn heavy!


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Water Rat
03-16-2016, 16:58
There are a ton of bears in NJ and they seem to be losing their fear of humans. Last Labor Day weekend I ran into a bear at base of Waywayanda mountain - at the foot of the Stairway to Heaven. This is one of the most heavily used portions of the AT in NJ. In addition to the hundred or so hikers on the Stairway, there was a music festival going on at a farm adjacent to the AT on Route 94. All of this within about 500 yards from the bear and it didn't faze it at all. Later that day, I ran into a sow and two cubs on the Pochuck Boardwalk - again, one of the most used sections of the AT. I almost always seen bears, but this was extra special. I've read up on what to do in case of an encounter, carry a small air horn in my hip belt pocket and a Storm whistle - and hope for the best.

People should be aware that possession of any more that 3/4 ounce of pepper spray, including bear spray, is a felony in NJ. (although the local REIs still sell it...) Its the same penalty as carrying an unlicensed firearm - so if you're going to risk the penalty, go for the firepower!

The example you gave was of a bear that was habituated to the noise of people. People have steadily encroached on their habitat, so they will get used to the noises. Bears even get used to seeing hikers out on the trail. The AT is well-traveled. It sounds like the bears you saw were used to people being around, but that still does not mean they want anything to do with people. They were just going about their business. You happened to come along.

There is a huge difference between a bear not running away when it sees a person, and a bear that charges a person because it has issues. How many hikers - day hikers. section hikers, thru-hikers - travel the trail in NJ vs how many bear attacks have there been to date? The odds of being attacked by a black bear are still extremely low.

I have a black bear who frequently visits my yard. While we don't get together for BBQs, and I have never tried to get him to ride a unicycle, we are also very much aware of the other. My noises don't scare him and he doesn't frighten me. I use caution, but am not afraid. He's just being a bear and trying to survive. Is there a possibility he could snap someday? Well, yes. The possibility that something "could" happen is always there. Doesn't mean I have the right to take away his life because he "could" snap.

Too many people overreact rather than use common sense. That is why we hear about so-and-so was killed in a case of mistaken identity. The firearm option has the probability of carrying a much higher consequence than you mention. This is a rhetorical question, but what if that noise you hear at 3 am is a hiker with a young child, hiking down the trail to go home because the kid is sick? What if a person in the tent gets nervous because it could be a bear coming to git' 'em and just shoots at the noise? Then you have a very bad situation on your hands and it won't be just a penalty. What happens if someone is unfamiliar with their unlicensed weapon and actually hits the bear…but the bear doesn’t die? The bear that was previously unprovoked is now going to be very unhappy with you and everyone around you.

This is not a rant about guns. This is a call to think about all the consequences of any action (even the unintended consequences) before you choose that course of action. The trail has risks. If you are fearful of something that needs to be addressed long before you put yourself in the situation. What are all the possible consequences for your choice in dealing with your fear? The AT is heavily traveled and people do night hike. Noises outside the tent seem a lot bigger in the middle of the night. Your choice in handling a situation better not negatively impact the lives of others.

daveiniowa
03-16-2016, 20:20
Worry about the hillbilly with three teeth and a banjo!!! Squeal boy!!!


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"Yea boy! You sure have a pretty mouth on you.." Classic.

I carry it. The real stuff I mean. There I said it. And it's a great feeling having it in the middle of the night when you are alone in unfamilliar territory. On the AT or any where else I go hiking.

saltysack
03-16-2016, 20:30
"Yea boy! You sure have a pretty mouth on you.." Classic.

I carry it. The real stuff I mean. There I said it. And it's a great feeling having it in the middle of the night when you are alone in unfamilliar territory. On the AT or any where else I go hiking.

Carry what U want..I've just never felt it was worth the weight!!! I've been on lots of so called crazy adventures...I paddleboard with gators and never felt a gun was worth carrying.....people scare me not animals...nuts with guns r even worse!


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Lone Wolf
03-16-2016, 20:33
bear spray is like bug spray, right?

saltysack
03-16-2016, 20:42
"Yea boy! You sure have a pretty mouth on you.." Classic.

I carry it. The real stuff I mean. There I said it. And it's a great feeling having it in the middle of the night when you are alone in unfamilliar territory. On the AT or any where else I go hiking.

Forgot to clarify.....I own plenty of guns...I'm not anti gun.....just anti idiots with guns! Especially scarred ones at that!


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Sarcasm the elf
03-16-2016, 20:46
bear spray is like bug spray, right?

That's what the guy ar REI told me.

Lone Wolf
03-16-2016, 21:02
That's what the guy ar REI told me.

REI workers don't hike.

Uncle Joe
03-16-2016, 22:03
I carry it. The real stuff I mean. There I said it. And it's a great feeling having it in the middle of the night when you are alone in unfamilliar territory. On the AT or any where else I go hiking.



Carry what U want..I've just never felt it was worth the weight!!! I've been on lots of so called crazy adventures...I paddleboard with gators and never felt a gun was worth carrying.....people scare me not animals...nuts with guns r even worse!

I think he meant bear spray, not guns.

saltysack
03-16-2016, 22:05
Ooops


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Offshore
03-18-2016, 06:50
bear spray is like bug spray, right?

In one sense, yes. Both have EPA registration numbers so are technically considered to be pesticides.

Offshore
03-18-2016, 06:51
The example you gave was of a bear that was habituated to the noise of people. People have steadily encroached on their habitat, so they will get used to the noises. Bears even get used to seeing hikers out on the trail. The AT is well-traveled. It sounds like the bears you saw were used to people being around, but that still does not mean they want anything to do with people. They were just going about their business. You happened to come along.

There is a huge difference between a bear not running away when it sees a person, and a bear that charges a person because it has issues. How many hikers - day hikers. section hikers, thru-hikers - travel the trail in NJ vs how many bear attacks have there been to date? The odds of being attacked by a black bear are still extremely low.

I have a black bear who frequently visits my yard. While we don't get together for BBQs, and I have never tried to get him to ride a unicycle, we are also very much aware of the other. My noises don't scare him and he doesn't frighten me. I use caution, but am not afraid. He's just being a bear and trying to survive. Is there a possibility he could snap someday? Well, yes. The possibility that something "could" happen is always there. Doesn't mean I have the right to take away his life because he "could" snap.

Too many people overreact rather than use common sense. That is why we hear about so-and-so was killed in a case of mistaken identity. The firearm option has the probability of carrying a much higher consequence than you mention. This is a rhetorical question, but what if that noise you hear at 3 am is a hiker with a young child, hiking down the trail to go home because the kid is sick? What if a person in the tent gets nervous because it could be a bear coming to git' 'em and just shoots at the noise? Then you have a very bad situation on your hands and it won't be just a penalty. What happens if someone is unfamiliar with their unlicensed weapon and actually hits the bear…but the bear doesn’t die? The bear that was previously unprovoked is now going to be very unhappy with you and everyone around you.

This is not a rant about guns. This is a call to think about all the consequences of any action (even the unintended consequences) before you choose that course of action. The trail has risks. If you are fearful of something that needs to be addressed long before you put yourself in the situation. What are all the possible consequences for your choice in dealing with your fear? The AT is heavily traveled and people do night hike. Noises outside the tent seem a lot bigger in the middle of the night. Your choice in handling a situation better not negatively impact the lives of others.

I really think the bear was just there for the music...

Ktaadn
03-18-2016, 14:32
bear spray is like bug spray, right?
My 5 yo daughter actually asked me this very thing last year. She was like 'oh, you spray it on your skin and it keeps the bears away?' Not exactly honey.

NewHeart
03-18-2016, 16:52
Pork is good but bear is naaaaaasty......I used to hunt. The last animal I shot w bow was a black bear in Canada years ago....haven't killed anything since........


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI don't like bear either, but I'm not going to let that stop me from hunting. There's nothing like sitting in a tree stand at first light. Watching and listening to the woods come to life is a marvelous thing!

rocketsocks
03-18-2016, 17:46
I don't like bear either, but I'm not going to let that stop me from hunting. There's nothing like sitting in a tree stand at first light. Watching and listening to the woods come to life is a marvelous thing!
...and then blast the life outta it. Ironic ain't it. I used to trap and hunt as well, and am glad I know how.

saltysack
03-18-2016, 17:50
I don't like bear either, but I'm not going to let that stop me from hunting. There's nothing like sitting in a tree stand at first light. Watching and listening to the woods come to life is a marvelous thing!

I love being in the woods more than anything.....just lost the desire to kill....I can still hear the sound the bear made after being shot years later. I have nothing against ethical fair chase hunting, I love venison......I'd rather shoot with a camera these days....


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Miel
03-18-2016, 18:58
I don't like bear either, but I'm not going to let that stop me from hunting. There's nothing like sitting in a tree stand at first light. Watching and listening to the woods come to life is a marvelous thing!

Oh dear. Your life was saved, and yet you want to take life? Why would you (or anyone else) want to take an animal's life for pleasure? Something so sadly ironic about your comment.:(

saltysack
03-18-2016, 19:46
Oh dear. Your life was saved, and yet you want to take life? Why would you (or anyone else) want to take an animal's life for pleasure? Something so sadly ironic about your comment.:(

Don't take what he said the wrong way.....nothing wrong with ETHICAL FAIR CHASE HUNTING....I'm an animal lover who just decided not to hunt anymore....yet I still eat meat...I now volunteer with a wildlife rehab facility near me....here is my latest catch, rehab and release.......http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160318/519b053fc5f635aa0c0c280aa04465c9.jpg


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Miel
03-19-2016, 09:05
Don't take what he said the wrong way.....nothing wrong with ETHICAL FAIR CHASE HUNTING....I'm an animal lover who just decided not to hunt anymore....yet I still eat meat...I now volunteer with a wildlife rehab facility near me....here is my latest catch, rehab and release.......http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160318/519b053fc5f635aa0c0c280aa04465c9.jpg


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That eagle is a beauty!
(Hunting, not so much.)

Thanks for helping to save the gorgeous bird.

Miel
03-19-2016, 09:13
"Never draw out the death of prey." http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hunting/principles/fair-chase-hunting.htm

Hiding in a stand seems to preclude that.

Frankly, I don't know why, with all our culinary (and fabric) choices in this wealthiest of nations, one would need to kill a bear. What joy is in it (unless one's life is in mortal danger?). Do what you can to protect yourself but don't kill or maim unless absolutely necessary. Ethical hunting is a slippery slope to poaching - poachers will ask, if other hunters can do it, why can't we? And yes, there is a market in some other countries for AMERICAN bear parts. Jesus guys-from-abroad, spend the money and get some Viagra and some believing in some folkloric superstition that animal "products" will make you more virile!

Make-a-Wish has been under tremendous pressure not to grant kills to the dying. I feel for those families, I really do, having a mother who died from complications from Alzheimer's and a father who was taken young from cancer. But I believe that even dying children, as heartbreaking as their illnesses are, should not be allowed to kill a beer (and, ultimately, he wasn't).

Slippery slope.

Traveler
03-20-2016, 08:05
"Never draw out the death of prey." http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/hunting/principles/fair-chase-hunting.htm

Hiding in a stand seems to preclude that.

Frankly, I don't know why, with all our culinary (and fabric) choices in this wealthiest of nations, one would need to kill a bear. What joy is in it (unless one's life is in mortal danger?). Do what you can to protect yourself but don't kill or maim unless absolutely necessary. Ethical hunting is a slippery slope to poaching - poachers will ask, if other hunters can do it, why can't we? And yes, there is a market in some other countries for AMERICAN bear parts. Jesus guys-from-abroad, spend the money and get some Viagra and some believing in some folkloric superstition that animal "products" will make you more virile!

Make-a-Wish has been under tremendous pressure not to grant kills to the dying. I feel for those families, I really do, having a mother who died from complications from Alzheimer's and a father who was taken young from cancer. But I believe that even dying children, as heartbreaking as their illnesses are, should not be allowed to kill a beer (and, ultimately, he wasn't).

Slippery slope.

I'm not sure your presumption ethical hunting leads to poaching is well founded. Your postulation suggest ethical driving is a slippery slope to your driving a car into a crowd at the farmers market. Ethical hunting has as much a relationship with poaching as buying gas has with holding up the gas station. Disagreeing with an activity based on personal objections is fine, connecting participants with illegal activity in a broad brush smear is a bit over the top.

Regarding bears, the population is growing in some States where trap/release is no longer a sustainable option and the population is pushing into suburban and urban areas. Since bears have few if any predators outside of man, it pretty much falls to us on how to manage the issue. There are only two ways a bear population can be controlled, nature (disease, famine) and predation. Hunting can be an effective population control mechanism with bears, as opposed to deer that herd and can develop relatively huge populations in a very short period of time. Though I do not necessarily like that option, unless a better option comes along, its all we have at the moment.

No beers were injured in formation of this post.

rickb
03-20-2016, 09:00
Best to keep in mind that no AT thru hiker has ever been killed or seriously injured by a bear.

On the other hand 5 (or 6) AT thru hikers have been murdered by another human while many miles into thier AT thru hikes.

With that in mind, a case can be made to carry a defensive spray that might be effective against the greater risk-- and to also provide some comfort (security blanket?) should you hear some strange sounds in the middle of the night that could be a bear.

Fox Labs makes some well regarded (LEO grade) products that could be carried descreatly in a hip belt pouch or in your front pocket during a hitch. O

Its all all about choices-- no righr answer. The choice should be informed by the history of bear (and human) encounters, however.

Miel
03-20-2016, 09:37
Population control = an excuse to murder.

We need to be more aggressive in rethinking housing policy, and aggressively work with cities and towns on reducing housing footprints; encourage more cluster housing (away from woods across the country); more housing in urban areas and public transportation.

My BFF lives in Grand Isle, Nebraska. She loves the idea of returning much of the Plains states to the buffalo.

We did this human encroachment thing to ourselves, the bears didn't do it to us. Why should a bear lose his life over it?

Climate scientists say that once our species is gone, the planet will recover within 100 years. Will that happen to bear populations too? How will bears protect themselves from "overpopulation [of bears]" with no people around to kill them? Maybe nature should take its course. I for one will pick up neither gun nor arrow.

Sarcasm the elf
03-20-2016, 09:48
I will politely remind you that this is a hiking site and neither an animal rights nor hunting site. Hikers are a very diverse bunch, there are many of us who have strong opinions on the subject on both sides however we generally refrain from debating it here because it is not an appropriate use of the forum.

Puddlefish
03-20-2016, 09:57
I will politely remind you that this is a hiking site and neither an animal rights nor hunting site. Hikers are a very diverse bunch, there are many of us who have strong opinions on the subject on both sides however we generally refrain from debating it here because it is not an appropriate use of the forum.

Yep, unless it affect's your hike, it's really not necessary to campaign for unrelated agendas here. Wear a bit of blaze orange during hunting season, is all I really need to know about hunting from a hike viewpoint.

Uncle Joe
03-20-2016, 09:58
I will politely remind you that this is a hiking site and neither an animal rights nor hunting site. Hikers are a very diverse bunch, there are many of us who have strong opinions on the subject on both sides however we generally refrain from debating it here because it is not an appropriate use of the forum.

+1 Agreed!

rickb
03-20-2016, 10:14
+1

Hunting discussion on this site should be focused on that which occurs along the Trail, and is potential incopatiblity with our commitment to to Leave No Trace ethics.

Or regarding such issues as Sobo's almost certain interaction with bear dogs on the footpath itself, and the potential safety issues of hunters along the AT shooting squirrel up in trees with out a defined backstop.

Or with regard to wearing blaze orange and acceptance of a hunters legal right to hunt on the AT footbed-- and how any interference with these sportsmen is strictly prohibited by law.

Or even the potential need to kill -- I mean harvest -- bear in certain areas to protect hikers from thier predatory ways. Not that I agree with that poorly conceived way of thinking.

This is is probably not the best thread to bring up those topics, but considering the top is bears and how to protect oneself from them, I understand how this happens.

In short, not a big deal IMO.

daveiniowa
03-20-2016, 10:29
Yes, +1. Gettin back on topic here.

It would be interesting to hear from some one, a hiker, who has used bear spray for self defense from a bear, cougar, boar, dog, alien being, or human, on the trail, to see what there opinion is. Would they use it again? Do they still carry it? What happened to their victim? I think this would give us a great insight on this subject. My hunch is no one has ever had to actually use it, on the trail hiking, the AT, especially on alien beings or we would have heard from them by now. But if you are out there please share your opinion.

Puddlefish
03-20-2016, 10:34
Yes, +1. Gettin back on topic here.

It would be interesting to hear from some one, a hiker, who has used bear spray for self defense from a bear, cougar, boar, dog, alien being, or human, on the trail, to see what there opinion is. Would they use it again? Do they still carry it? What happened to their victim? I think this would give us a great insight on this subject. My hunch is no one has ever had to actually use it, on the trail hiking, the AT, especially on alien beings or we would have heard from them by now. But if you are out there please share your opinion.

I'm always interested in hearing stories about aliens on the trail. Bonus points awarded if they also include pirates, ninjas and robots.

rickb
03-20-2016, 10:47
I'm always interested in hearing stories about aliens on the trail. Bonus points awarded if they also include pirates, ninjas and robots.

I can say with near certainty that none of the 5 (or 6) thru hikers murdered on the AT itself while many miles into thier thru hikes used or attempted to use a defensive spray in thier struggle to remain alive.

Offshore
03-20-2016, 10:58
I will politely remind you that this is a hiking site and neither an animal rights nor hunting site. Hikers are a very diverse bunch, there are many of us who have strong opinions on the subject on both sides however we generally refrain from debating it here because it is not an appropriate use of the forum.

It really is amazing how quickly people will take the opportunity to make sudden sharp turns with their soap boxes in tow. In my original post I pointed out that in NJ, possession of bear spray is a felony of the same class as carrying an unregistered firearm. While that is true, I was joking when I said one may as well carry a gun since the penalty is the same - thereby starting the gun/animal/hunting rights outcry/outrage/victimization tangents. Should have known better...

turtle fast
03-20-2016, 11:36
With the legality of not being able to possess bear spray in NJ, what is the legal situation for the whole trail? Then legally only a small OC spray could be carried for the whole trail (and that's if it's legal in the other states).
You may be better off having a dual purpose spear/walking stick then!

Sarcasm the elf
03-20-2016, 11:45
It really is amazing how quickly people will take the opportunity to make sudden sharp turns with their soap boxes in tow. In my original post I pointed out that in NJ, possession of bear spray is a felony of the same class as carrying an unregistered firearm. While that is true, I was joking when I said one may as well carry a gun since the penalty is the same - thereby starting the gun/animal/hunting rights outcry/outrage/victimization tangents. Should have known better...

Are you certain the EPA registered bear spray is banned in NJ? I have had trouble findino a respectable source confirming if this is the case. The closest I could find is that Wikipedia's bear spray article says it is legal nationwide, but their citation is to an invalid link.

For what it's worth, I saw several people openly carrying bear spray in NJ when I hiked through in 2011, which is why I assumed it was permitted.

Puddlefish
03-20-2016, 11:49
With the legality of not being able to possess bear spray in NJ, what is the legal situation for the whole trail? Then legally only a small OC spray could be carried for the whole trail (and that's if it's legal in the other states).
You may be better off having a dual purpose spear/walking stick then!

While climbing a small mountain last summer, I ran into a gentleman using a small tree section as a walking stick, while he was heading up the trail. Based on the bark, it appeared to be an ash, about 3" in diameter and 6' tall. The bottom was blunted and rounded over a bit, and looked like it had seen some mileage.

I was afraid to ask.

turtle fast
03-20-2016, 11:58
Was he wearing animal skins and named Lothar? Hiker name Caveman?
That for a hiking staff seems quite huge. I wonder how much extra caloric effort was needed for that tree trunk of a staff!

saltysack
03-20-2016, 21:39
Was a joke....


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Offshore
03-21-2016, 07:12
Are you certain the EPA registered bear spray is banned in NJ? I have had trouble findino a respectable source confirming if this is the case. The closest I could find is that Wikipedia's bear spray article says it is legal nationwide, but their citation is to an invalid link.

For what it's worth, I saw several people openly carrying bear spray in NJ when I hiked through in 2011, which is why I assumed it was permitted.

N.J.S.A. 2C:39-5 establishes the offenses and penalties related to the unlawful possession of weapons. Exceptions to that law are set forth in N.J.S.A.2C:39-6. Section i. of N.J.S.A.2C:39-6 provides that “Nothing in N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent any person who is 18 years of age or older and who has not been convicted of a crime, from possession for the purpose of personal self-defense of one pocket-sized device which contains and releases not more than three-quarters of an ounce of chemical substance not ordinarily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury, but rather, is intended to produce temporary physical discomfort or disability through being vaporized or otherwise dispensed in the air.”

No special call out for EPA registered varieties.

Francis Sawyer
03-21-2016, 09:40
Last post error

Diamondlil
03-21-2016, 10:02
It's amazing how quickly a a topic can go terribly askew. Aliens?


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twistwrist
03-24-2016, 10:27
Only you can decide if it's needed. People will tell you no, however, I carried the 12 ounce can most of my thru-hike last year because it gave me peace of mind that made it worth the weight. Multi-use in purpose, you can defend yourself against man or beast with it. As a solo female hiker, I highly recommend it if you're nervous about being out there on your own.

http://appalachiantrailclarity.com/at-for-newbies/

LIhikers
03-28-2016, 15:47
bear spray is like bug spray, right?
I don't know about that, but my wife and I use bug spray to cover the smell of hiker funk.

Mags
03-28-2016, 16:54
indeed...it did.

Sarcasm the elf
03-28-2016, 17:04
indeed...it did.



34343

I like this one :D

Pedaling Fool
04-11-2016, 12:22
This is an interesting video of a woman, apparently, being chased by a bear, but since she was snowboarding she didn't realize it. If she actually was being chased, I guess this would be a case of someone running (in effect) and and kicking in the predatory response of a bear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT_PNKg3v7s

Pedaling Fool
04-11-2016, 12:30
This is an interesting video of a woman, apparently, being chased by a bear, but since she was snowboarding she didn't realize it. If she actually was being chased, I guess this would be a case of someone running (in effect) and and kicking in the predatory response of a bear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT_PNKg3v7s
Then I saw this video, but it looks fake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il2C3z2J65o&nohtml5=False

However, I think the original with the snowboarder is legit.

AlyontheAT2016
04-11-2016, 20:24
Then I saw this video, but it looks fake https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Il2C3z2J65o&nohtml5=False

However, I think the original with the snowboarder is legit.

They both look fake to me.

SouthMark
04-11-2016, 21:29
The bike one is a fake. Google it and you can find the article explaining how they edited it. Note how the biker can swivel his head around 180 degrees while pedaling flat out.


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