PDA

View Full Version : 6 foot rock stacks in virginia



ekeverette
03-18-2016, 05:59
On my 2012 hike I came across many 5 to 6 foot stacks of rocks I believe a few miles before I got to sarver hollow shelter. My first thought, maybe civil war barriers? When I got to route 621 I asked a fellow, he said there were farms up there my years ago. It just seemed odd, because the mountain top was no more than 100 yards across. Im from flat country, just seems like the rain water would run right off. Do any of you old timers know if this is correct.

hubcap
03-18-2016, 06:49
There were farms up in the mountains all along Appalachia, even among the rocks. It was a hard life. The lake at Fontana Dam displaced families when it was built. Much of Shenandoah National Park was private farm land at one time. There's a lot of history along the trail.

Starchild
03-18-2016, 08:47
Rocks that could be moved out of the field were commonly moved to the large rock a farmer could not move, giving rise to those piles. They were also placed on the boarders of the fields creating rock walls.

rafe
03-18-2016, 09:32
You'll find stone fences deep in the woods throughout New England. All these woods are second, third, fourth growth. Approximately none of it is virgin growth. It's not that they enjoyed making fences, but they needed to clear the biggest rocks from the fields, and they had to put those rocks somewhere...

When I was helping build water bars across the trail near RPH shelter in NY, we "borrowed" big rocks from a stone fence a few dozen yards off the trail.

Grampie
03-18-2016, 09:47
When this land was settled and farmed most of the work to prepare fields was either done by hand or with a single furrow mule drawn plow. When they turned up a rock they would just pile them up, for later use, and plant around the pile. A lot of these piles remain today long after the farmers have moved on.

Odd Man Out
03-18-2016, 12:32
Yes I too saw those on my section hike two years ago. At first I was confused but then reasoned an explanation that matched those above. All through that part of the country you will see stone walls made from field stones. They had to move the stones from the fields to make the land suitable for cultivation. Down in the valleys, the stones they cleared also served as fences to keep livestock in place and to mark field/property boundaries. My thought is that up on that ridge, there was no need to fence in livestock or mark you property line (the ridge does that for you). So my guess was that they just moved each rock the shortest distance possible, producing a bunch of randomly spaced piles. Not far from there (I think it was on the climb up to Dragon's Tooth, going NOBO), there was an old cabin and a wall going straight up the side of the mountain. It was hard enough just walking up that slope. I can't imagine how hard it was to build a stone wall there. We are wimps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdCL9k0iRxA

Here is a song about the stone walls of the Shenandoah Valley by Robin and Linda Williams (first verse and chorus)

I make my home In Stone Wall Country
Down a crooked lane
Where the fields steep and rocky
Took such toil to claim
Now the plows run deep in Stone Wall Country
The ground gives back good yields
And the rocks that blocked the furrows
So worrisome to wield
Stand in fences round the field

I may leave the Shenandoah
But shell never leave my heart
Stone Wall Country
Clear-eyed daughter of the stars

ALLEGHENY
03-18-2016, 14:23
Some of those walls had to have been built by slave labor. That's what I was thinking when I went through that slave state.

tiptoe
03-18-2016, 16:40
Here's a link to a previous discussion. Ah, the beauty of a functioning search!

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-106256.html

Rain Man
03-18-2016, 23:19
IIRC, Model T talks about those exact rock piles in his book "Walking on the Happy Side of Misery."

atraildreamer
03-19-2016, 10:08
You'll find stone fences deep in the woods throughout New England. All these woods are second, third, fourth growth. Approximately none of it is virgin growth. It's not that they enjoyed making fences, but they needed to clear the biggest rocks from the fields, and they had to put those rocks somewhere...

When I was helping build water bars across the trail near RPH shelter in NY, we "borrowed" big rocks from a stone fence a few dozen yards off the trail.

Rocks were a primary crop in New England! :eek: The freeze-thaw cycle of the weather would push the rocks to the surface. As Rafe says, when you hike in the New England woods you will be crossing many stone walls that were made as the farmers fought an unwinnable, ongoing battle to keep their fields clear of rocks. :mad:

Puddlefish
03-19-2016, 11:14
Rocks were a primary crop in New England! :eek: The freeze-thaw cycle of the weather would push the rocks to the surface. As Rafe says, when you hike in the New England woods you will be crossing many stone walls that were made as the farmers fought an unwinnable, ongoing battle to keep their fields clear of rocks. :mad:

I'm always amazed when I find these walls in hard to reach locations, and consider that people lived and worked there.

34240

This elevation profile includes the Bunker Farm, where they cleared 20 acres of hill top around 1805 or so. Walls with big rocks everywhere. About 400 ft elevation to where the house (WT3) sat at the end of their 1/2 mile driveway, then about a mile back up a 500 foot hill to the nearest town. Sections with a 26° grade. Imagine that walk to school, then walk back home, climb the rest of the way up the hill (WT5) to tend the sheep/cattle, haul out trees and move rocks.

Back in my day, we had to walk to the end of the block to catch the bus.

Traveler
03-20-2016, 07:19
Some of those walls had to have been built by slave labor. That's what I was thinking when I went through that slave state.

Though its possible, its unlikely in the higher elevations of the AT. River bottom land or valleys were far more suitable for agriculture and timber operations where the larger farms/businesses were that could afford to use slave labor. In the higher elevations spring comes late, winter early, and the terrain is not conducive to agriculture on a scale that would have required more labor than a family could provide. Most of these were subsistence farms, on land few others wanted and who's owners would not have been able to afford slaves. Just having a beast of burden to plow a field or carry them into town and back would have been a reach for most of those folks.

Miel
03-20-2016, 09:47
Though its possible, its unlikely in the higher elevations of the AT. River bottom land or valleys were far more suitable for agriculture and timber operations where the larger farms/businesses were that could afford to use slave labor. In the higher elevations spring comes late, winter early, and the terrain is not conducive to agriculture on a scale that would have required more labor than a family could provide. Most of these were subsistence farms, on land few others wanted and who's owners would not have been able to afford slaves. Just having a beast of burden to plow a field or carry them into town and back would have been a reach for most of those folks.

Reminds me of Mt. Equinox, VT. The men returned home from the Civil War with tales of how much easier farming was in the midwest, that they learned from their fellow soldiers. So that VT area was abandoned by the soldiers, who headed west and their families followed. Now home to a monastery and the graves of the dog Mr. Barbo, "shot by a vicious hunter" and another pup who died up there.

Whatever the varied origins of these stone piles, they are beautiful - and very Zen.

Puddlefish
03-20-2016, 10:00
While we're on the topic of zen rockpiles. Don't build cairns yourself, to express your artistic side. They're important navigation aids in certain places.

ALLEGHENY
03-20-2016, 13:36
Though its possible, its unlikely in the higher elevations of the AT. River bottom land or valleys were far more suitable for agriculture and timber operations where the larger farms/businesses were that could afford to use slave labor. In the higher elevations spring comes late, winter early, and the terrain is not conducive to agriculture on a scale that would have required more labor than a family could provide. Most of these were subsistence farms, on land few others wanted and who's owners would not have been able to afford slaves. Just having a beast of burden to plow a field or carry them into town and back would have been a reach for most of those folks.


I walked past walls of piled rock that stretched for a thousand yards or more and thought it would take much
man power to gather, and pile them. More than a single farmers family and several generations could manage. I contend slaves were used by early land grant owners.

http://hd.housedivided.dickinson.edu/node/17888
http://unknownnolonger.vahistorical.org/browse/location

Traveler
03-21-2016, 07:16
I walked past walls of piled rock that stretched for a thousand yards or more and thought it would take much
man power to gather, and pile them. More than a single farmers family and several generations could manage. I contend slaves were used by early land grant owners.

http://hd.housedivided.dickinson.edu/node/17888
http://unknownnolonger.vahistorical.org/browse/location

Similar sights can be seen in New England with massive rock walls meandering through the forests, miles and miles of them, built by generational farmers without much if any slave labor. Its not hard to make these structures using an animal drawn sledge. Leverage and two people can move a surprising number of rocks, some of significant size, using this method. It can also take a number of years for seasonal cycles to move rocks to the surface once clearing starts so the walls we see today are usually the results of removal over years. We used similar techniques when I was a kid in Maine, clearing "pop up" rocks out of pasture land where mechanical equipment had problems going. A couple of days of pushing, pulling, and hauling delivered a considerable payload to the walls around the pastures.

I don't mean to argue, but wanted to point out its pretty remarkable what relatively few people can accomplish with these kinds of structures over a short time.

ALLEGHENY
03-21-2016, 09:42
King James II sent plenty of Slaves to the colonies in the 1600's. They were mostly Irish.

Bronk
03-21-2016, 11:04
The ridgeline above Sarver Hollow shelter used to be planted with apple trees. The farmer that built the farmhouse at Sarver Hollow piled up the rocks on the ridge to make room for the trees. This has been discussed here several times before and this is the only explanation that was proven correct despite several people speculating about ovens and other such structures...the piles of rocks had no function in and of themselves, they were just rocks that were piled up to get them out of the way.

Traveler
03-22-2016, 11:32
The ridgeline above Sarver Hollow shelter used to be planted with apple trees. The farmer that built the farmhouse at Sarver Hollow piled up the rocks on the ridge to make room for the trees. This has been discussed here several times before and this is the only explanation that was proven correct despite several people speculating about ovens and other such structures...the piles of rocks had no function in and of themselves, they were just rocks that were piled up to get them out of the way.

Best way to manage a lot of rocks is put 'em where you ain't.

TheDuckOnTheJunebug
05-12-2016, 10:45
I grew up right near the Delaware Water Gap. We call the long piles "stonerows" and they dot the whole countryside, both in areas that are currently still farmed and along the mountain ridges. Pretty sure I once ran across an advertisement for auction of new farmland on a ridge above Stroudsburg (either on the ridge between Fox Gap and the Water Gap or the next ridge north) from ~1910 or so. I recall being surprised that it was so recent.

Mr. Bumpy
05-12-2016, 11:44
King James II sent plenty of Slaves to the colonies in the 1600's. They were mostly Irish.

Oh no. Not on white blaze too?

LittleRock
05-12-2016, 15:32
The ridgeline above Sarver Hollow shelter used to be planted with apple trees. The farmer that built the farmhouse at Sarver Hollow piled up the rocks on the ridge to make room for the trees. This has been discussed here several times before and this is the only explanation that was proven correct despite several people speculating about ovens and other such structures...the piles of rocks had no function in and of themselves, they were just rocks that were piled up to get them out of the way.

Yep. I was just up there a few weeks ago. The ruins of the old Sarver Hollow farmhouse are near the newly built Sarver Hollow AT shelter. They are just past the end of the blue blaze trail down to the water source.

George
05-12-2016, 19:13
on hill farms the rocks kept surfacing from erosion as well as freeze/ thaw cycles, thus many walls/ piles were built up for decades - the walls/ piles that are still almost perfectly intact were almost certainly built by slaves - this was a valuable specialty that was passed father to son with these slaves being hired out for this work, as well as performing it for the owner - the land owner that was a "do it yourself" loose lay stone wall builder did not have the skills/ experience for the walls to exist unmaintained for over a 100 years of frost etc.

RockDoc
05-12-2016, 23:10
This has been done for thousands of years all over the world. If you travel in the mountains anywhere in Asia, there are huge cairns at the tops of passes. It's also an old tradition in tundra areas of northern Europe. We found huge cairns marking routes in areas lacking trails in NW Iceland (Hornstrandir penninsula) last year.

If you hike above timberline in the Colorado Front Range near Denver or Boulder you will find low, very old stone walls covered with lichen. Most hikers/peak baggers don't notice them, but they were made thousands of years ago. Studies by Benedict during the 1980's determined that the walls were constructed to channel game such as deer during a time when the climate was much warmer than now (the Altithermal period after the Ice Age). Native tribes moved high on the mountains because the plains became oppressively hot.

THEDON
05-14-2016, 14:35
Some of those walls had to have been built by slave labor. That's what I was thinking when I went through that slave state.

Nope. Those homesteaders were living hand to mouth, could never afford slaves nor the resources to support more mouths to feed. On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.

Pedaling Fool
05-14-2016, 16:07
Nope. Those homesteaders were living hand to mouth, could never afford slaves nor the resources to support more mouths to feed. On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.That's what kids are for; child labor laws destroyed this country:eek::D

shelterbuilder
05-14-2016, 21:26
I don't know about that. I've built more than one stone fence/retaining wall at our cabin, and after decades, there's been no movement. The trick is to remember to use gravity against itself. If you're building a stone wall, the wall has to be about 2 stone-layers thick, and each layer has to tilt slightly toward the center of the wall. That way, when gravity tries to pull down one side of the wall, it is sliding against the other side (which is also sliding against the first side), and the sides keep each other up. With no mortar between the stones, any rain will simply drain away without finding the tiny cracks that can be expanded by the normal freeze/thaw cycles. It really doesn't take any special skill - any farmboy from early New England could do it.
on hill farms the rocks kept surfacing from erosion as well as freeze/ thaw cycles, thus many walls/ piles were built up for decades - the walls/ piles that are still almost perfectly intact were almost certainly built by slaves - this was a valuable specialty that was passed father to son with these slaves being hired out for this work, as well as performing it for the owner - the land owner that was a "do it yourself" loose lay stone wall builder did not have the skills/ experience for the walls to exist unmaintained for over a 100 years of frost etc.

Mountain Dog
06-22-2016, 20:15
A lot of comments by people that have not seen the rock piles. Need to see them to understand the question. The piles, 30 or more at least, are sometimes neatly stacked in squares about 6'x6'x6' and at other times look like they were dumped out of a truck. They are not attached to each other and appear to be randomly placed around the section. It would take a crazy person to go that far up a mountain to farm such a small section of land, and believe me, there are more rocks on the ground than any farmer would leave in a field. I've seen some stacks on a smaller scale other places. I cannot find a definitive answer as to what they mean, The best I've heard and to which I lean is that Indians sometimes had a sacred place. They would go to these places and offer something to their gods. These rocks could reflect many years of a local tribe members making a pilgrimage to their sacred land and basically building alters to honor their gods. I'd surely like to hear from someone with a definite answer.

egilbe
06-23-2016, 06:12
I don't know about that. I've built more than one stone fence/retaining wall at our cabin, and after decades, there's been no movement. The trick is to remember to use gravity against itself. If you're building a stone wall, the wall has to be about 2 stone-layers thick, and each layer has to tilt slightly toward the center of the wall. That way, when gravity tries to pull down one side of the wall, it is sliding against the other side (which is also sliding against the first side), and the sides keep each other up. With no mortar between the stones, any rain will simply drain away without finding the tiny cracks that can be expanded by the normal freeze/thaw cycles. It really doesn't take any special skill - any farmboy from early New England could do it.

The freeze/thaw cycle pushes previously buried rocks to the surface. Picking rocks is a Springtime ritual where I grew up. Stone walls and fences were built with the rocks picked out of fields. My family has lived in the same area for 200 years. There has never been a year where the fields didn't need the rocks picked. Thats a lot of rocks.

post civil-war, the population of Maine dropped by 1/2 between 1865 and 1870 as returning soldiers talked about how easy farmers had it elsewhere.

egilbe
06-23-2016, 06:15
on hill farms the rocks kept surfacing from erosion as well as freeze/ thaw cycles, thus many walls/ piles were built up for decades - the walls/ piles that are still almost perfectly intact were almost certainly built by slaves - this was a valuable specialty that was passed father to son with these slaves being hired out for this work, as well as performing it for the owner - the land owner that was a "do it yourself" loose lay stone wall builder did not have the skills/ experience for the walls to exist unmaintained for over a 100 years of frost etc.

Odd how these old stone walls in New England stood all these years without being built with slave labor.

zelph
06-23-2016, 09:06
Back in the Woodland period of American Indian history, about 1,500 years ago, the natives who lived in the region north of the Ohio River began building a series of stone walls or "forts" on top of isolated bluffs or hills. They placed the boulders they found in the region's rolling hills and creek beds in rows, stacking them to heights of six feet. Today, at least 10 stone walls remain on isolated knobs throughout southern Illinois -- some with steep drops on three sides, others along the edges of bluffs.

Read more about stone forts (http://illinoistimes.com/article-1380-shawnee’s-stone-forts.html)

The Old Chief
06-23-2016, 10:13
I found this by a simple search of Sarver Hollow. These folks were not slave owners, or sharecroppers, but homesteaders who had to improve the land for 10 years to claim ownership. Part of that improvement was to clear the land for farming which I guess included moving the rocks. There's even a picture of one of the piles. If still in doubt, the Craig County Virginia Historical Society can provide the details.

http://johncarlinsvirginia.blogspot.com/2011/11/sarver-cabin.html

Lnj
06-23-2016, 13:50
I'm always amazed when I find these walls in hard to reach locations, and consider that people lived and worked there.

34240

This elevation profile includes the Bunker Farm, where they cleared 20 acres of hill top around 1805 or so. Walls with big rocks everywhere. About 400 ft elevation to where the house (WT3) sat at the end of their 1/2 mile driveway, then about a mile back up a 500 foot hill to the nearest town. Sections with a 26° grade. Imagine that walk to school, then walk back home, climb the rest of the way up the hill (WT5) to tend the sheep/cattle, haul out trees and move rocks.

Back in my day, we had to walk to the end of the block to catch the bus.

AHA!! This is where the original line "had to walk 10 miles to school with no shoes in 3 feet of snow uphill, both ways" came from!! Tada! Mystery solved. :)

Mountain Dog
06-23-2016, 16:05
I found this by a simple search of Sarver Hollow. These folks were not slave owners, or sharecroppers, but homesteaders who had to improve the land for 10 years to claim ownership. Part of that improvement was to clear the land for farming which I guess included moving the rocks. There's even a picture of one of the piles. If still in doubt, the Craig County Virginia Historical Society can provide the details.

http://johncarlinsvirginia.blogspot.com/2011/11/sarver-cabin.html

Could be the same except there were no signs of any cabins or farming when I went through about 5 years ago. If there were "a lot" of piles as big or bigger than that shown and they were more squared off then the mystery is solved. The same stone structures have been found in Mississippi and they claim them to be created by Indians, possibly Indian burial grounds.

The Old Chief
06-23-2016, 16:46
Could be the same except there were no signs of any cabins or farming when I went through about 5 years ago. If there were "a lot" of piles as big or bigger than that shown and they were more squared off then the mystery is solved. The same stone structures have been found in Mississippi and they claim them to be created by Indians, possibly Indian burial grounds.

The Sarver Hollow Shelter was built in 2001-02 and it is just a very short walk over to the remains of the Sarver Cabin. It's listed in Wingfoot's 2001 Trailguide as Sarver Cabins and he refers to it as a homestead location. If you take the time to read the article I listed earlier you will see that the cabin was built and homesteaded sometime prior to the Civil War. There's no telling how many farms you will cross on the AT that you will find no trace of today. Between Brown Mtn Shelter and Hwy 60 in Viriginia you will see evidence of an entire community in a very narrow valley that follows a creek. There's a heck of a lot more evidence to support homesteading and farming in that region than Indian burial sites.

Doctari
06-23-2016, 16:51
Cows eat about 10 Lbs of food a day, grass don't grow on rocks very well, so even if you didn't Plow to grow crops, you would move the rocks to (as mentioned above) a rock you couldn't move, or make a fence to free up more ground to grow critter feed (sheep & goats & horses also eat grass). There is a rock pile, , , OK, was, the creek took it years ago,,, on my parents Ohio farm. Did moving all of those rocks make a difference? Don't know, but I recognized those rock piles as soon as I saw them this year, have seen them in many parts of the country, so some farmers seem to think it helps,,,, along the lines of "every little bit helps!"

egilbe
06-23-2016, 16:55
Cherokee Indians lived in that area too, didnt they? Farmers, fairly well developed civilization. Would have assimilated very well into early American society, except for Andrew Jackson and finding gold.

Mountain Dog
06-24-2016, 17:01
The Sarver Hollow Shelter was built in 2001-02 and it is just a very short walk over to the remains of the Sarver Cabin. It's listed in Wingfoot's 2001 Trailguide as Sarver Cabins and he refers to it as a homestead location. If you take the time to read the article I listed earlier you will see that the cabin was built and homesteaded sometime prior to the Civil War. There's no telling how many farms you will cross on the AT that you will find no trace of today. Between Brown Mtn Shelter and Hwy 60 in Viriginia you will see evidence of an entire community in a very narrow valley that follows a creek. There's a heck of a lot more evidence to support homesteading and farming in that region than Indian burial sites.
I did read the article and I standby my statement. I've seen the piles and I've hiked that section, have you??

BongoTheOneEyed
07-23-2016, 19:32
Perhaps it was a Buddhist Stupa that you encountered in the forest. A holy relic to be circumambulated, it creates merit.

The Old Chief
07-23-2016, 19:52
I did read the article and I standby my statement. I've seen the piles and I've hiked that section, have you??

Of course I've hiked that section of the AT. Three times so far. And I've spent the night at Sarver Hollow Shelter and explored the ruins of the Sarver Cabin, evidently more times than you. Don't argue with me, argue with the historical society, the descendants of the Sarvers and posted historical facts about Sarver Hollow.

Bronk
07-24-2016, 09:45
When I hiked through there in 2002 the Sarver Hollow shelter was brand spankin' new. The roof of the old homestead cabin looked like it had just recently caved in and the walls and chimney were still intact, minus a couple of logs that some campers had removed to use as benches around the fire pit where people camped next to it. The shelter was built to discourage people from camping near the cabin. There was also a smaller structure that people referred to as a chicken coop. I stand by the assertion that the rock piles were made to make room for apple trees. This has been discussed on this forum several times over the years and this is the only explanation that wasn't blind speculation without anything to back it up.

The Old Chief
07-24-2016, 12:43
Pretty accurate assertion.