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Stoker53
12-23-2005, 15:34
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

hammock engineer
12-23-2005, 15:40
Look at the discount gear online. Then compair prices. I find it hard to believe that the online gear places are taking a hit on them. They have a lower overhead. But I doubt that counts for all of it.

general
12-23-2005, 16:40
usual mark up on all retail is 100%. standard. if i make something that costs, say $40 in material + 4 hours to make it at $10 dollars an hour, $80 total manufacturer cost, (not mentioning overhead) that same item would be $160 on the shelf at a retail store. why the mark up? they have to pay lots of folks to sell you things, and i would assume most pay rent on their location(s). light bills in retail stores ain't cheap either. anything over 100% mark up is outrageous. if they charge more than that they are gouging you, and i wouldn't give them my money.

gravityman
12-23-2005, 17:39
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

Personally, don't think a retailer should sell anything over the MSRP. I don't remember seeing anyone doing that, except at small resupply points, and then it was only on small items, like fuel canisters. I felt that was justifiable.

I don't think we felt like we were gouged on gear at all on the trail. Camera batteries were probably the worst.

Gravity

Just Jeff
12-23-2005, 22:36
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

As much as the market will bear.

PROFILE
12-23-2005, 22:45
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.


Are you talking profit or cost of an item? Most companies (imo smart companies) want work for less than 10% and most shoot for around 25%. This effects overall price. They have to account for wholesale price + expenses pluss profit. And the bottom line is if it is to much do not buy. If the company does not sell they will revist the profit, maybe cut expenses. If yo still do not buy they will close. Thus solving the "gouging".

Capitalism is great!

smokymtnsteve
12-23-2005, 23:22
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

ah amerika,,home of the free market,,,,no price is to high!!!

there is no such thing as price gouging.

icemanat95
12-23-2005, 23:32
MSRP usually takes into account a substantial markup, sometimes it is a HUGE markup. This markup allows room for reasonable "normal" overhead costs such as brick and mortar store rent, staffing, insurance, stocking fees, shipping fees to bring stock into the store, etc. while leaving about 25% profit for the store after those costs. Products that are likely to sit on shelves for long periods of time may demand a higher markup as stores often purchase the product on credit and the longer the product sits in the warehouse or stockroom, the more interest must be paid on it.

E-tailers seldom actually keep much stock on hand and have little or no staff to pay or other budget items to drive up their overhead. They depend upon fast shipping from their suppliers to provide "just in Time" stocking...they order a product, it arrives within 1-3 days and is sent on to the end customer that same day, generally arriving inside of 10 business days... (or is drop shipped from their distributor directly to the end-customer). So they can still take a healthy 20-25% profit while charging substantially less than their brick and mortar store competitors.

Whistler
12-23-2005, 23:37
No such thing as too much profit. But you'll almost never see me pay full price for anything.
-Mark

icemanat95
12-23-2005, 23:40
Price gouging can only really occur in markets where there is little or no real competition within the marketplace, either because of heavily controlled markets that regulate the price for all sellers or because the seller has established and protected a monopoly. The diamond market is the most notable example. Diamonds are actually relatively common, nothing more than carbon formed under pressure and heat. But the DeBeers corporation has gained a functional monopoly on the market, even if it doesn't control all sources of diamonds, it has strong controls on the distribution and cutting of diamonds such that the numbers of diamonds released to the market at any given time is controlled to maintain prices and the illusion of true rarity.

If you want to give a loved one a truly rare stone, try Alexandrite.

RedneckRye
12-24-2005, 01:29
Standard margin on "softgoods" is 50%. A fleece that sells at retail for $100 costs the shop $50. Standard margin for "hardgoods" (packs,tents,stoves,shoes,etc,etc..) is around 40-42%. A pack that sells at retail for $100 cost the shop $58-60.
Why the markup?? Rent, payroll, electric and heat and water, tech support for the computer/cash register system, advertising, bags and boxes to put the stuff in when you walk out of the store with it, theft, etc, etc. Hell, if all goes well, maybe even an x-mas bonus for the people who work at the shop.
Most (95% ??) of manufacturers have an MSRP and MAP. Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price and Minimum Advertized Price. These are prices that shops are not supposed to sell below. Some manufacturers are very specific about how sales of their products can be timed and how they can be done. Manufacturers can (and will) stop shipping product to stores that don't follow pricing policies.

Footslogger
12-24-2005, 12:58
If you'v ever worked for an outfitter and done any ProDealing then you've probably seen the wholesale pricing of outdoor goods, which is still a healthy level above cost. I've seen both wholesale and what manufacturers call their "Cost of Goods" and from my experience there is easily a 400% mark up on some items.

'Slogger

c.coyle
12-24-2005, 13:48
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

They should make as much profit as the market will bear. These are luxury items, not food, clothing, and shelter.


Personally, don't think a retailer should sell anything over the MSRP

Why not? It's a suggestion. Would you buy a piece of hiking gear priced above MSRP? Bingo!!

When it comes to spending discretionary income on luxury items, stand back and let markets set prices.

c.coyle
Liberal Capitalist

TooTall
12-24-2005, 13:54
You also have to take into consideration how soon or often they can sell an item. When you tie up money in inventory it's better to sell it quickly. If it sits on the shelf for a long time even with a low margin that's a problem. In retailing you can make a profit with either a slow nickle or a fast penny. You can make just as much money selling five items for a $1.00 profit in the same time as you sell one item at $5.00 profit. It's up to each retailer to find the sweet spot price where you maximize margin times turnover (called GMROI).

Maybe that item with an obscene markup is something that doesn't sell that often. The retailer has to put in a high markup to justify keeping it in inventory. You're paying the high price because it's available and on the shelf when you need it even though it's not in great demand.

Too Tall Paul (retailing wonk in real life)

Shutterbug
12-24-2005, 14:51
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

It depends on a lot of different circumstances. Take WhiteHouse Landing for instance. I heard hikers complain because a cannister of fuel was 60% higher than at WalMart.

Frankly, I am surprised that the prices at Whitehouse landing aren't higher. Most people I know will gladly pay an extra $1.50 to avoid carrying the extra cannister from Monson to Whitehouse Landing.

Whitehouse Landing is a good example of "what the market will bear" pricing. Would I have paid $25 for a hamburger? Probably not. Did I pay $8 for a hamburger? Yes, and I enjoyed every bite.

walkin' wally
12-25-2005, 11:09
As much as the market will bear.

Sad but true, in a lot of cases, I think

c.coyle
12-25-2005, 11:23
Sad but true, in a lot of cases, I think

Why is this sad?

Fiddleback
12-25-2005, 11:36
Generally, a seller trys to get as much as he/she can while a buyer pays as little as he/she can. A transaction is completed when a buyer agrees to pay a price that the seller agrees to accept. Otherwise, each go their separate way. This is the way it should be...I know of no superior system.

FB

c.coyle
12-25-2005, 11:50
I bought a Pepsi can stove from Tin Man at Anti Gravity Gear. It cost $10.95, or whatever. Now, if Tin Man raises the price to $21.95 for the same stove, because he greedily wants more profit, I can (1) buy from one of his competitors who sell an equivalent product cheaper, (2) make my own from the 497 sets of plans available free, (3) buy a different kind of stove. Tin Man loses a sale because he priced his product too high.

Or, if I think Tin Man's stove is so much better than any of the competition, I pay him $21.95, and we're both happy.

Show me one purveyor of hiking gear who doesn't have a competitior you can buy from.

When it comes to luxury items purchased with discretionary income, assuming a reasonably free market, it really is that simple.

And some non-luxury items, too. Here in Pa., if a big snowstorm is predicted a few days in advance, you can count on the supermarkets being cleaned out of milk and bread. That's because people hoard, and buy 5 loaves of bread and 5 gallons of milk to get through a day or two. The result is inevitably a temporary shortage, so that some people can't buy any.

Supermarkets don't have the cajones to raise prices, because everyone would scream that they're gouging profiteers. But, people would only buy what they need to get them through a day or two, shortages would be avoided, and everyone would get something.

I'm not a laissez faire capitalist, but market economies are generally a good thing.

walkin' wally
12-25-2005, 12:14
Why is this sad?


Why should so many things nowadays be so expensive that a lot of people cannot afford to do things that they would like to do. Why do people have to work so hard all their life to get the things they need ? Why should their paychecks be taken from them for the benefit of corporate greed? Why do both parents in a lot of situations need to both work full time at the expense of their kids quality time?

What justifies the salaries that these CEO get nowadays? How much work do they do?

Why should people be denied the basic medical cares that they need because of the price. Be careful on that one. My wife works in surgery and you would not believe what the simplest items there cost. It is as bad or worse that what the military pays for their trinkets. If a person is not insured somehow and needs surgery they better be holding on to their shorts.

What justifies a big business, that is making a good profit, demand concessions from their workers?

Sorry, but big some small business is out of control at the expense of the average American.

A fair profit? okay, but price gouging? no

Merry Christmas

One Leg
12-25-2005, 14:19
Personally, I would much rather spend my money by buying products made by my fellow hikers, or from small-time operations such as Etowah Outfitters, Rock's ION stove, or Brian's hammock tarps because I know that the thought and consideration when making such products are based on their respective trial and errors. I've found that the quality of the workmanship often far exceeds anything I've found at an outfitters. Other necessities that aren't offered/manufactured by individual hikers/small operators, I shop comptetively in order to find the best price. (EBay's been a good source for me.)

Just my $.02 worth.

-Scott

Tinker
12-25-2005, 14:27
Most people wouldn't believe a retailer if they were told the acual cost of any given item.

I can't blame them.

They won't be told.

I've seen items with a "suggested price" of " 1,200.00 go on sale for $600.00.

I doubt my employer lost any money on the $600.00 price.

What was the actual price to my company???????

I'll never know.

PROFILE
12-25-2005, 15:08
Why should so many things nowadays be so expensive that a lot of people cannot afford to do things that they would like to do.
Why? Because it is not corparations responsiblity to make anyone happy, it is it make money for its owners and stock holders. It is the individuals responsibility to come up with the means to "do what they like".



Why do people have to work so hard all their life to get the things they need ? What justifies the salaries that these CEO get nowadays? How much work do they do? .

I think you answered your own point. You don't have to "work" that hard. If you propperly prepare yourself. The key being you.


Why should their paychecks be taken from them for the benefit of corporate greed? Why do both parents in a lot of situations need to both work full time at the expense of their kids quality time?

I may not understand this point. The only person taking your pay check is our favorite Uncle. And he is doing it for greed. I read recently that over 80% of two income houses, it takes the entire salary of one to pay the family taxes. I know this to be a fact for my house. the last year I worked before opening the Hostel over 55% of our income went to taxes.(that just sucks)



Why should people be denied the basic medical cares that they need because of the price. Be careful on that one. My wife works in surgery and you would not believe what the simplest items there cost. It is as bad or worse that what the military pays for their trinkets. If a person is not insured somehow and needs surgery they better be holding on to their shorts.

No one in this country is denied any much less basic health care, if the health care is needed. I could go into a whole rant on health care the Government and how they are responsible for high cost but thats another post but I will say (and this will hit close to home) Most of that high cost is not the individual trinkets, but the hospital fees. And Having seen what the labor breakdown per a patient, May be nurses should not be payed so much. Lets face it over the past 10 years there has been a shortage of nurses. and due to this the salaries have risen much much faster than inflation. Nurse's demand what the market will bare for salaries.(sound familiar)




What justifies a big business, that is making a good profit, demand concessions from their workers?

A fair profit?


First what is good/fair? Is it fair for me to start a company put everything I have at risk. provide a good or service that people want then be told how much I am allowed to make. And let me clue some of you in on a a fact. The owner of your comapany goal is to get the absolute most productivity out of you far as little as they can. If you could be replace for less money you would. And good employers will do things to pay you less and keep you happy. IE christmas parties, b-day lunches, also they will get famillies involved in Company events. This way you make friends with co workers and are less likly to leave if pay is cut or raises are not given. There are many more tactics such as these but this post is not a business seminar.


Companies will not price themselves out of the market. but they want leave money on the tabel either. If you cannot afford what an activity cost may you should find something else to do. I do not fly planes because It is an activity I am not willing to pay for. If I can't pay for flying my own plane is it Boeing's responsiblity to come up with a school I can afford and I plane I can fly. I think not.

BTW Merry Christmas:jump

Sly
12-25-2005, 16:00
The only person taking your pay check is our favorite Uncle. And he is doing it for greed. I read recently that over 80% of two income houses, it takes the entire salary of one to pay the family taxes. I know this to be a fact for my house. the last year I worked before opening the Hostel over 55% of our income went to taxes.(that just sucks)


I may not understand this point. People want roads, parks, infrastrucure and security, but they don't want to pay for it?

rickb
12-25-2005, 16:28
For an interesting discussion on capitalism and social responsibility, you might want to google up some stuff spoken by the richest guy ever to hike the AT.

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blogs/jm/

To my way of thinking, this guy really gets it!

smokymtnsteve
12-25-2005, 17:47
No one in this country is denied any much less basic health care, if the health care is needed.

I wish that were the case, many folks in this "greatest" and rich country known as Amerika are without even the most basic of health care,,,in particular the mentally ill in the USA are neglected,,,,to the detriment of us all.

walkin' wally
12-25-2005, 18:31
Profile,


I don't know how things work in your part of the country but nurses do not demand and get what they want here. That is decided by the hospital or whatever they work for. If nurses got what they wanted there would not be as such high attrition rates as there are.

No argument about taxes. 55% sounds awful high to me too. They are certainly not the only attack on my paycheck though, no, not in the least. That is another thread though.

You saying that no one is denied basic healthcare is way off the mark. If some can't afford it they can't afford it. It is extremely expensive. Period. Hospitals are paying way more than necessary for materials. Thats a fact. If nurses are overpaid, as you say, then certainly are CEOs and shareholders. Think of that if you have to go under the knife someday.

As far as working hard goes some parts of the country have a lot more opportunity than others. Some people are lucky to have a job... but it may not be a liveable wage. Why is that? Think Walmart. Don't they make enough money? Why does such a company as them try to break labor laws? Why can't they pay a decent wage?

If corporations are not responsible to make people happy then they should not act like they are. That their's is such a wonderful place to work.

Wage concessions are a part of life now in a lot of places. Sometimes it is neccesary and a lot of times it is not. If your important shareholders are driving wage concessions then they are not really helping the working people. Let companies do away with their work force and cater to their shareholders if they are so important. Let's see where their productivity goes then. I'll give you a clue. O

I say to you that the standard of living has fallen because heavy handed business tactics (management by fear), and greed and offshore labor. I will stick to that.

If you took personally what I said about big and small businesses and control It certainly was not aimed at people like you. Nothing personal. The term 'small business' was a poor choice maybe. People trying to make a living along the trail and elsewhere are not the issue in my post. I don't think they have much of an economic impact nationwide. More power to them.

I have been to your web-site to look at your hostel and would like to stay there in about 3 years before I start my through hike. You have a very nice place.

Walkin Wally

rickb
12-25-2005, 19:06
Just wanted to post an excerpt from the link I suggested.

Keep in mind that the thru hiker saying this created a billion dollar company.




As the business grew we created our mission statement back in 1985 and have tried to fulfill it ever since. That mission very clearly articulates that we have collective -- there's that word again -- responsibilities to all the various constituencies who are voluntarily cooperating with the company. In order of priority these constituencies or stakeholders are: customers; team members; investors; vendors; community; and environment.

We measure our success on how well we meet the needs and desires of all of these various stakeholders. All must flourish or we aren't succeeding as a business. I'll email you a graphic that represents how Whole Foods views the voluntary cooperation between the various stakeholders:

TooTall
12-25-2005, 20:38
Keep in mind that the thru hiker saying this created a billion dollar company.

He's also rabidly anti-union which is pretty weird considering his business and his 'commitment' to team members.

Too Tall Paul

lobster
12-25-2005, 20:44
Unions are bad!!!

lobster
12-25-2005, 20:50
A kid two years behind me in high school was founder and CEO of lowermybills.com.

He started the company in 1999 and sold it for 330 MILLION this spring. I wonder what part goes to him and what goes to the investors.

Also, he's staying on with the company for another 2 years with the possibility to pull in another 50 million in incentives.

Ain't a free market great!!!

Just Jeff
12-25-2005, 21:34
Just because people work hard to provide a service or good to the market doesn't mean they should profit from their hard work. Or at least they shouldn't profit as much as their work is worth to the people buying it. Those poor, unfortunate souls who can't afford it simply MUST have a say in how that hard worker runs his business and how much he can charge.

Tell you what - you work hard and create a new product, then sell it to me for half price...simply because I "need" it and that's what I think you should charge.

rickb
12-25-2005, 23:00
Edit Edit Edit

c.coyle
12-26-2005, 07:32
Let's go back to the original post in this thread, from Stoker53:


How Much Profit.......
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.


Let's say an outfitter really is making an "obscene profit", whatever that is. What exactly would you folks who don't trust markets do to correct the situation?

illininagel
12-26-2005, 19:28
As much as the market will bear.

The last time I checked, nobody was granted a monopoly on this gear.

As long as there is open competition, let an individual seller determine their price. It it's too high, competitors will undercut it. Or, people just won't buy it.

The free market system has a way of making things work very efficiently.

Seeker
12-27-2005, 13:07
....can Outfitters make on an item for it to be classified as obscene?

I have my opinion but would like to hear others.

I'll echo just jeff... "as much as they can get."

if you think it's overpriced, don't buy it. if you think you can make one better or cheaper, enter the market and furnish it.

we've had this discussion somewhere here before... it was about wages though. but most people forget a business'es (sp?) expenses... the stockholders/owners are entitled to deduct any expenses before their profit, so don't dismiss things like accounting fees and rent as 'well, the owner just has to pay them... it's not much'... here's a sampling...

rent, property insurance, inventory insurance, vehicle insurance, liability insurance, worker's comp insurance, unemployment insurance, accounting and legal fees, FICA tax on payroll, phone, fax, internet, web server/site, computer upgrades/replacement, software development and upgrades, vehicles, gas, tires, oil changes, other maintenance. (this ate 35-40% of my own gross.) and that's not counting payroll itself (this ate 50% of my gross), or the R&D costs that many manufacturing type businesses have... ever try to make a prototype car in your garage? everything has to be custom made... you might be able to reuse 'proven' concepts, like a good engine or transmission, but everything else has to be handmade. then, when you get one that works, you have to retool and entire assembly line to make it work... and what if, one day, you came into work and discovered that someone had vandalized your service fleet three weeks before christmas, during the busiest season of the year, and caused over $500 in damage to the tires, rendering them inoperable until repaired? that came straight out of my own pocket, and resulted in a pretty lean christmas for my kids... not to mention the loss of a half day's work... i'm sorry, but i was entitled to whatever profit i managed to squeeze back from those trying to take my money... oh, and i forgot the income and SS taxes (about another 30% of the 10-13% profit margin).

so, if a business wants to charge me 'too much', i just make my own, buy somewhere else, buy a cheaper version, or don't buy it... eventually, someone will either make it as good but cheaper, or, if it can't be done, i'll save enough money to buy it...

btw, i did it all... and then lost it all... 10 years of saving for it, 6 years of building a business and then losing it. i still don't grudge the system... the alternative (socialism/fascism/marxism) is unacceptable to me. yes, there are abuses (monopolies) but the law prevents them. No, not all are charitible... it's their right to be that way... but if you look at some of the great robber barons (carnegie, rockafeller), they were charitible... just like some of today's (Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, and a few others.)

free markets... free enterprise... entrepreneurship... America.

greymane
12-27-2005, 13:27
I spent many, many years in the service. I am well acquainted with the military supply system. Most of the horror stories you have heard just aren't true anymore. The basic stuff we buy costs the same (or in many cases) less than it would cost at Walmart. The new acquisition system requires that any government contractor give as good or better price to the government as any other customer they have. The exceptions are the cases where the requirements we put on the manufacturer for standards drive up the price (just to provide the data showing they are meeting the standards).

Regarding your paycheck and standard of living, the AVERAGE person living in "poverty" in the US has a color TV, a vehicle, a fridge and a telephone. The AVERAGE citizen in Europe does not have all of this. Maybe you don't have it so bad.

Regarding nurses, my wife was a nurse (recent career change) and found that the private sector jobs were much more lucrative than the hospital scene. The reason hospitals don't pay very well is that there is always a good stream of willing young people to fill the jobs. If that stream slowed to a trickle, the market would raise pays to fill the gaps. Many hospitals are understaffed, but many who work there are willing to take on the overtime to boost their pay, thus, the jobs are "filled" as far as the hospital is concerned. (A little overtime vs a whole set of benefits for a new nurse.)

Tim Rich
12-27-2005, 14:40
Greetings,

Several frayed edges on this thread.

Markups - As has been said, inventory turnover is the key to low margins. That's why stores with rapid turnover, such as grocery stores, can operate on low margins. 'Tis true, though, whatever the market can bear. It forces you to go elsewhere or improvise. My Dad was looking at an apparatus that plugs into a receiver hitch of a pickup that allows you to haul longer lumber, sheetrock, etc. He looked at the prices, decided the price was outrageous, and went out and made his own. Admittedly, we don't always have the ability to make everything, but we can improvise and make good choices on what gear opens our wallets.

Hospital Costs - The "sticker price" of hospital care is incredible. For those with health insurance, look at a hospital bill and look at the difference between gross amount billed and amount actually paid. Sometimes it's as low as 30 to 40% of the gross amount. For those of you without insurance, or considering an elective procedure that won't be covered by insurance, discuss a flat rate bill with your hospital, to be paid in advance. Sometimes you can save up to 50% of your bill just by your hospital knowing they won't have to pursue you for payment.

Nurses - Like teaching, it's a calling. I worked as an orderly at the county hospital for three and a half years in college, 24 to 60 hours a week. The floor nurses, the ER nurses, CCR nurses and the surgery nurses all worked hard, and the stress certainly caused them burnout. The number of ex-nurses walking around today is astounding. Other than learning that nurses are, generally, special people doing a valuable service, that job taught me two lessons:
1. Never go to a hospital unless you're really sick.
2. When you assign patients to the trauma room, place patients with injuries from pool cues and knives at opposite ends of the room. They may have (and did, in one instance) gotten to know each other already during the evening.

Take Care,

Tim

icemanat95
12-27-2005, 14:49
Most people who complain about the markups made by retailers haven't got the faintest idea what the costs are that those markups must cover. The more overhead the business has, the higher their costs and the higher the markups they must charge to clear a worthwhile profit.

Small crafters like Sgt. Rock offer their goods at such low prices for one single reason...because they aren't trying to make a living off it. Those who are trying to make a living eventually end up outsourcing the crafting, raising their prices above what the market will bear, or selling more than they can produce in reasonable times. Usually they also must live at a lower standard of living than they would prefer for a good long time, often working a second job to make ends meet until they either go out of business or their product(s) take hold in the marketplace and volume and price reach a point that the company makes a good profit.

Nightwalker
12-27-2005, 15:21
I may not understand this point. People want roads, parks, infrastrucure and security, but they don't want to pay for it?
SHHH! Makes too much sense! Not allowed!

Seeker
12-27-2005, 17:39
Most people who complain about the markups made by retailers haven't got the faintest idea what the costs are that those markups must cover. The more overhead the business has, the higher their costs and the higher the markups they must charge to clear a worthwhile profit.

Small crafters like Sgt. Rock offer their goods at such low prices for one single reason...because they aren't trying to make a living off it. Those who are trying to make a living eventually end up outsourcing the crafting, raising their prices above what the market will bear, or selling more than they can produce in reasonable times. Usually they also must live at a lower standard of living than they would prefer for a good long time, often working a second job to make ends meet until they either go out of business or their product(s) take hold in the marketplace and volume and price reach a point that the company makes a good profit.

yeah. what he said...

icemanat95
12-27-2005, 18:01
I may not understand this point. People want roads, parks, infrastrucure and security, but they don't want to pay for it?

In my experience this is exactly the case. Every time you ask a hiker to pay a fee for parking or access to a park or forestland, to pay shelter fees, or campsite fees, the #$tch, moan and complain about it until the sun goes down and comes back up again. They are perfectly willing to tax the living daylights out of everyone else to pay for the lands they benefit from, but won't pay a red cent themselves if they can get away with it.

I take that back...most weekend hikers I encounter have no problem paying the fees, it's the thru-hikers who do all the complaining. Bring up the suggestion of a nominal fee for a long distance hiking permit for thru-hikers and they tend to go into fits of hysterical rage. Not all mind you, but many.

PROFILE
12-27-2005, 21:14
Originally Posted by Sly
I may not understand this point. People want roads, parks, infrastrucure and security, but they don't want to pay for it?

SHHH! Makes too much sense! Not allowed!

NO!! It does not make sense. I do not mind paying for basic services. My boiling point is paying for all the social programs. I don't just mean welfare and SSI. Also, federal subsidies ( farms and import/export tarffis, "earned" income taxe credits, and other such waste of my tax dollars.) I will look up the figure hut I think over 40% of taxes go to these programs. My belief is that I should not have to pay for others mistakes/decesions. I should have a choice to give (and do) to local programs.

smokymtnsteve
12-27-2005, 21:28
My family has paid LOTS of taxes,,,and still does.

we LOVE AMERIKA, and are proud and happy to support the country and society that has allowed us to be so prosperous.

WHY DO u HATE AMERIKA SO MUCH?

Seeker
12-28-2005, 11:08
not wanting to pay more taxes doesn't make you un-american... if you look back to about the years 1774-1784, i seem to recall something about americans not wanting to pay more taxes... that sort of started this whole thing rolling...

betic4lyf
12-28-2005, 16:49
then we came back in 1781 and decided that we did want taxes.

i think people who call people unamerican are ignorant, especially when talking about critiscism of the government. the abbility to argue with the gov is what makes america special. Blindly following the government is decidedly not american.


bob Dylan is the Man

smokymtnsteve
12-28-2005, 17:01
wasn't that little conflict something about

taxation WITHOUT representation??

Papa Razzi
12-28-2005, 17:17
There's still some instances of taxation without representation in America. Take the 400,000+ citizens of the District of Columbia for example. We pay federal taxes but have no voting representation in Congress to help decide how the money gets spent.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled hiking discussions.

LostInSpace
12-29-2005, 00:02
ah amerika,,home of the free market,,,,no price is to high!!!

there is no such thing as price gouging.

Yup, that's Big Oil mentality! See it daily.

smokymtnsteve
12-29-2005, 00:50
Yup, that's Big Oil mentality! See it daily.

well I do live in AK and recieve a PFD so high oil prices benefit me.;)

our local representative is working on giving every AK resident a extra payment of $250 this year as an fuel equalization bonus,,,

Cedar Tree
12-30-2005, 11:57
Show me one purveyor of hiking gear who doesn't have a competitior you can buy from.


The Packa
www.thepacka.com

Cedar Tree

Footslogger
12-30-2005, 11:59
The Packa
www.thepacka.com (http://www.thepacka.com)

Cedar Tree
========================================
YUP ...that's the only show in town and it ROCKS !!

'Slogger

Just Jeff
12-30-2005, 12:07
Ed Speer's PeaPod and SPE. JRB's down underquilts (though Patrick has a synthetic underquilt now - the only two companies selling them). JRB's tarp tensioners and down sleeves.

Depending on how you define competitor, LuxuryLite packs are pretty unique. I guess they still compete with all of the other packs, but nothing does quite what they do.

PROFILE
12-30-2005, 14:18
The Packa
www.thepacka.com

Cedar Tree

I, because I like to be difficult, wwould disagree. The packa competes with all other rain gear and pack covers.

Just Jeff
12-31-2005, 03:14
Yep - and a Ferrari competes with a Yugo because they both get you to work.

betic4lyf
12-31-2005, 14:09
i have a little solution if the price of smething is to high. it is a secret but i am confident you all wont leak it. don't buy it. i think it is pointless to argue about profit. if their is a need, buy whatever is the best compromise of quality and price. simple as that. i dont argue about the Value, or the Profit, the makers have on my insulin. i need it, and i have the money to pay for it, so i buy it.