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camerhil
03-23-2016, 12:47
This is possibly an idiotic admission, but after taking my EE Enigma 10-degree quilt on multiple trips, I'm starting to think that I'm just not using it right.

Last trip I combined it with my XTherm pad and a thermolite liner, but even with full Cap 4 baselayers and a hooded down jacket, I was still uncomfortably cold when the temperature hit freezing. Surely this isn't right?

I'm starting to wonder if there's an ideal way of cynching quilts which I'm not getting. Do you try to wrap the whole thing under your body, or do you secure it to the pad as much as possible? I feel like there are fewer drafts the second way, but there's too much wasted space to heat up.

Do you have a method for this? I would be especially grateful for tips from EE quilt users.

burger
03-23-2016, 13:24
I don't have an EE quilt, but they're all pretty similar. On colder nights, all I do is button my quilt around my neck and tuck just an inch or two of fabric under my body on either side. If I'm in practice, I can roll over without letting any air in. Maybe you need a wider quilt? Also, has the down shifted around in some way that's letting cold in?

I think the lowest I've ever taken a quilt to is 20 or so. Some folks don't use quilts in cold temperatures for the reasons you describe.

Puddlefish
03-23-2016, 13:33
It's possible your quilt is too long? For me, a neck cinch and foot cinch tend to drag the sides inwards towards my body.

camerhil
03-23-2016, 13:47
There is some space at the foot, so I guess it might be a little long. I didn't realise that this might be a factor.

I definitely struggle with letting cold air in when I turn over. I never seem to get the quilt tucked in a way that prevents this. I'm a thin guy, but maybe the regular could be swapped for a wide.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

archie
03-23-2016, 14:03
Are you wearing too many clothes? This could cause sweating and lead to cold sleep It could also constrict and compress down and blood flow. When I use my enigma 20 anywhere near freezing, I have to open it up to prevent sweating. But I sleep warm.

As for cinching it up, I usually just tuck it in under me. My quilt is pretty wide for me so that works well. I toss and turn a lot so this will lead to drafts that are too cold if it is near the lower limits of the quilt so then I use the pad straps included with the quilt and they work very well for me. I don't like the straps when it is warmer as I feel like I am constricted when I toss and turn. That's one reason I love quilts, I can move around in them.

I also have an older rev-x 30 degree. FWIW that quilt is as warm as my newer 20 with the exception of its smaller size and the cold spots from the karo baffles. I feel there is less down in the newer models. To be fair though, the rev-x quilt does have some overstuff in it though I don't know how much, thus I don't really know its true rating.

archie
03-23-2016, 14:06
I am a fat guy and I have a wide. I would think if you are thin the regular would be sufficient.

Puddlefish
03-23-2016, 14:21
There is some space at the foot, so I guess it might be a little long. I didn't realise that this might be a factor.

I definitely struggle with letting cold air in when I turn over. I never seem to get the quilt tucked in a way that prevents this. I'm a thin guy, but maybe the regular could be swapped for a wide.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I was surprised at how close the sides tucked in when I clinched the neck. Try a bit of string to or a large rubber band to tighten the footbox up a bit, it's a cheap experiment if nothing else.

DuneElliot
03-23-2016, 14:30
This is why I bought the 10*F Convert...quilt for warmer weather, sleeping bag for colder temperatures. On bag to rule them all...

Cheyou
03-23-2016, 15:48
Are u using the straps ?

egilbe
03-23-2016, 16:57
Use the straps, have the clips a bit under you. You should be good.

whats the r-value of the therm?

cmoulder
03-23-2016, 17:04
Are u using the straps ?

I'm also thinking this is the problem... or perhaps just not using them correctly. Using the elastic straps and sliding the clips farther in toward the middle can really cut down on drafts. I got my 20F Enigma in wide so that I could really pull it in with the clips and so that I could wear extra puffy layers. With a tweaked air mat/CCF pad system I've taken this combo down to -6F and remained warm.

HERE (http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/blog/quilts-102-pad-straps/) is EE's instructional for using the strap system. The only thing I would add is that those clips on the straps can be moved more toward the center of the sleep pad to virtually eliminate drafts.

Cheyou
03-23-2016, 17:52
Could use a bivy sack over . Condensation can b a problem with a bivy . Not a big fan but no drafts. Borah gear bivy?

Venchka
03-23-2016, 18:08
Xtherm R value = 5.7.

3 Words:
Western Mountaineering Antelope.
On second thought, try the Lynx.

If you are wearing everything you own under a 10 degree quilt and you are cold at 30 degrees you need Way more insulation. You must be a very cold sleeper.

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

SWODaddy
03-23-2016, 18:10
Is it possible you need something wider? I assume no issues with your pad? I've used my Revelation 20 into the 20's comfortably with just a base layer - using the strap system (I don't tuck the quilt) and cinching the head and foot.

PAHiker
03-24-2016, 10:24
I use a GoLite Ultra 20 which appears to be a very similar design to the Enigma.

I do use the straps and slide my neoair X-therm down into the footbox of the quilt (the straps are under the neoair) creating a sleeping bag type structure.

Once in the quilt I snap the head end around my neck. I then cinch the drawstring at the head end around my neck. The only thing under me is the neoair pad. The outer edges of the quilt are just under the edge of the pad based on how tight I adjusted the two straps. Don't pull the quilt too tight or you may lose the loft.

camerhil
03-24-2016, 10:40
Thanks for the advice - these are some useful tips. I tend to sleep cold, which I'm sure makes a difference, but I still feel I haven't been using the straps optimally. There's usually a ton of wasted air inside the quilt.

The Enigma comes with two different straps, one of which fits around the pad and has movable clips, and one which is just a basic elastic loop. I get the feeling I haven't been cinching either of them tight enough underneath me. I do wonder why both straps aren't the "around the pad" variety, since surely this would make for a snugger fit with less drafts? Anyway, I'll experiment at getting the quilt as snug as possible without compromising the loft.

burger
03-24-2016, 11:03
BTW, don't forget all the usual stuff about good campsite selection to sleep warmer: sleep under trees and not in the open, sleep in your tent instead of a shelter or cowboying, don't sleep in valley bottoms or near water.

Hosh
03-24-2016, 11:18
Thanks for the advice - these are some useful tips. I tend to sleep cold, which I'm sure makes a difference, but I still feel I haven't been using the straps optimally. There's usually a ton of wasted air inside the quilt.

The Enigma comes with two different straps, one of which fits around the pad and has movable clips, and one which is just a basic elastic loop. I get the feeling I haven't been cinching either of them tight enough underneath me. I do wonder why both straps aren't the "around the pad" variety, since surely this would make for a snugger fit with less drafts? Anyway, I'll experiment at getting the quilt as snug as possible without compromising the loft.

I have found that the non-elastic work the best. I have a regular/wide. If it's cold, I stage 1 connector near the mid line of the pad and the other about a third of the way in from the edge. The second one can be used to exit the quilt and is easier to reattach.

The flexible volume of quilts is what makes them work for me, but it does make sleeping in colder temperatures a challenge. EE has an over quilt strap system that combines 2 quilts. If you have a 3 season and a summer quilt it will help isolate the drafts.

Since you're a cold sleeper, you might have to get a dedicated mummy bag.

Slo-go'en
03-24-2016, 11:29
I think I'll just stick to my mummy bag and silk liner.

Ashepabst
03-24-2016, 11:41
BTW, don't forget all the usual stuff about good campsite selection to sleep warmer: sleep under trees and not in the open, sleep in your tent instead of a shelter or cowboying, don't sleep in valley bottoms or near water.

and change to dry socks and eat a good dinner.

Hosh
03-24-2016, 11:52
I think I'll just stick to my mummy bag and silk liner.

What ever works, I can't sleep in a mummy hence the quilt.

In cold temps, quilts have a real disadvantage over a tapered sleeping bag with a draft tube and draft collar.

In moderate temps, quilts have a much greater range of comfort, especially those that can be opened like a blanket.

Like all things, there is no one solution. Thankfully there are hundreds of vendors and manufactures willing to risk their capital to meet market needs.

I smile when someone thinks that what works for them is the "best" for everybody else.

Secondmouse
03-24-2016, 12:42
If you are using a 10-degree quilt, on an XTherm pad with a thermolite liner, wearing full Cap 4 baselayers and a hooded down jacket, and you got cold when the temperature hit freezing, then something, most certainly, isn't right...

a 10* quilt should be warm enough with just base layers at freezing. in fact, with the rest of the gear you mentioned, I suspect you could be warm enough even without the quilt so we need to start looking at other issues. someone mentioned maybe you are so warm that you are sweating. possibly...

I wouldn't start all bundled up. first thing, I'd ditch the Thermolite liner. start with just your baselayer. eat a good meal, wear a hat, and do some light activity to get your circulation up before you lay down. If you start getting cold, try to locate the "source" of your cold. I recently had an unusual phenomenon in my quilt where my legs were sweating while my body was feeling cold. I was confused but finally traced this to an insufficient R-value pad.

how inflated are you keeping the X-therm pad? if it's low enough where portions of your upper body contact the ground then that would work like a heat-sink, pulling the warmth out of you, regardless how insulated you are above...

camerhil
03-24-2016, 14:57
I keep the X-Therm 90% inflated, with just enough give to stop it feeling like a rock. I find that by about 2am I am nice and warm, but the first couple of hours are always brutally cold.

I seem to have issues with temperature regulation in general. In my house, if it's above 60 degrees in the room then I'll get so uncomfortably hot that I can't sleep. Stick me outside and I get too cold instead. It's very frustrating.

I'll try the tips you suggested. ll make sure to dry out thoroughly before putting on my sleepwear. I know the EE quilts are quality, so hopefully it's just my pre-sleep routine that needs tweaking.

MuddyWaters
03-24-2016, 15:41
I keep the X-Therm 90% inflated, with just enough give to stop it feeling like a rock. I find that by about 2am I am nice and warm, but the first couple of hours are always brutally cold.

I seem to have issues with temperature regulation in general. In my house, if it's above 60 degrees in the room then I'll get so uncomfortably hot that I can't sleep. Stick me outside and I get too cold instead. It's very frustrating.

I'll try the tips you suggested. ll make sure to dry out thoroughly before putting on my sleepwear. I know the EE quilts are quality, so hopefully it's just my pre-sleep routine that needs tweaking.


If your body is chilled, and you bag is slightly overrated for conditions, it may still take a few hours to warm up good.

This is why extra insulation is good in cold weather ...you warm up faster.

One of best feelings is to go to bed cold , cold feet, etc and wake up 2 hrs later toasty. When you are cold, your body produces less heat, it warms up slowly.

Dogwood
03-25-2016, 00:22
I'm in the habit of taking a sleeping bag or quilt down to at least it's lower temp rating. Started off with quilts in a 20* GoLite quilt cowboy and A-frame tarp camping. Regardless of campsite selection when taking the quilt down in to upper 20*'s was cold and drafty. Part of it was the gear. Much of it was me or so I thought. Despite having experienced some 250 quilt nights I would STILL get cold in those upper 20* temps in that same quilt. Conclusion: it wasn't as much me as I originally was willing to shoulder.

What I can share and advise anyone starting with quilts is: 1) know there is a going to be learning curve 2) know that it's more forgiving riding the upward curve in warmer weather temp quilts used in warmer weather i.e; drafts, which some newbie quilters fiddle with, and I did, are more forgiving to a comfortable night's sleep in warm temps 3) Length, width, cut, various pad attachment systems and techniques of a quilt are critical specs to consider in quilt usage. Type of pad and/or under insulation needs to be considered even more so the colder the camping temps. One's sleeping style and shoulder circumference should absolutely be considered if a quilt is being considered in relation to all these other factors. I've seen so many times people, especially the gram weenie save another 2 ounces crowd, selling their not wide enough quilts given their specific sleeping style, body dimensions, typical camping arrangement, etc opting for a larger or different quilt. For all the potential benefits of quilts there is definitely the potential for a greater quilt fiddle factor than conventional sleeping bags.

IMO, the best pad attachment system that I know of that avoids or eliminates drafts especially needed in cold temps cowboy and open tarp camping as a side sleeper tossing and turning all night without additional sleeping system gear(dedicated separate sleep clothing, liner, bivy, etc) with a quilt that is generally conservatively temp rated with an excellent shell fabric is made by Katabatic Gear. https://katabaticgear.com/shop/alsek-sleeping-bag/ Enlightened Equipment rates a close second and is easily the best buy for those on a tighter budget. Acquiring one of Tim's 20* quilts as discussed here on WB on Mass Drop at $200 was a downright BOOYAH STEAL!

Secondmouse
03-25-2016, 11:57
I keep the X-Therm 90% inflated, with just enough give to stop it feeling like a rock. I find that by about 2am I am nice and warm, but the first couple of hours are always brutally cold.

I seem to have issues with temperature regulation in general. In my house, if it's above 60 degrees in the room then I'll get so uncomfortably hot that I can't sleep. Stick me outside and I get too cold instead. It's very frustrating.

I'll try the tips you suggested. ll make sure to dry out thoroughly before putting on my sleepwear. I know the EE quilts are quality, so hopefully it's just my pre-sleep routine that needs tweaking.

I'm certainly no expert but in my experience, if I ever get cold in the night, I always start warm and then get chilled later as my metabolism slows down. If you experience things the other way around, I would again recommend start out with a bit of exercise to get your circulation up and only wear minimal clothing. you can always add later if you wake up cold.

Something else I do before bed is I don't sit around bundled up. in camp I try to wear only as much clothing as it takes to keep me slightly cool. I'll be the guy with shorts and fleece top on while everyone else has long pants and their puffy on.

With a good mattress, I've taken my 40* EE quilt down to 43* with just my poly pro long sleeve top and boxers, a wool hat and socks.