View Full Version : Permethrin Thought
trailsean
03-24-2016, 10:36
Although i do not like to use chemicals on my skin when i can help it, it would seem after much research that spraying your clothes with permethrin is the best way to reduce your exposure to ticks and as a result, Lyme disease. As part of my evening routine on my up coming through hike I was thinking about wiping myself down with a dry wash cloth that had been treated with Permethrin, before wiping myself down with warm water or a wet wipe. I was curious if anyone had tried this before and if they thought a pass over with a Permethrin treated wash cloth would kill any ticks on contact like Permethrin treated clothing is said to do.
A friend of mine also suggested using a lint roller before bed, curious of people's thoughts on that as well. Thank you.
peakbagger
03-24-2016, 10:38
Permethrin is neutralized by skin oils, it only works when its dried on fabrics.
colorado_rob
03-24-2016, 10:42
Sure sounds like an iffy idea to me, personally I'd stick with permethrin on the clothes only, and self-inspect for ticks. What you're proposing couldn't really hurt though, I suppose.
I did the permethrin-clothes thing only and didn't get a single tick on the entire AT. Not one. Full disclosure, I did the entire AT in April-early June and restarting fairly north in late August - early October, never on the trail in mid-June - mid August, and I'm sure that made a big difference.
swisscross
03-24-2016, 10:49
Permethrin is nasty stuff.
I wear long rubber gloves and a respirator when treating (mass soaking) my gear.
No way I would apply it directly to my skin.
Even dry some people have allergic reactions.
Treat your clothes and apply either deet or picaridin to your skin. Picaridin is safer especially for children.
Sarcasm the elf
03-24-2016, 11:02
As others have said, permethrin is intended to be used on your clothes. I suggest washing yourself with a non-treated cloth or sponge every night to remove dirt and salts from your body that cause chafing. In the process you will be able to check for ticks, though I doubt you will find any of your pants are treated.
Sarcasm the elf
03-24-2016, 11:07
Permethrin is nasty stuff.
I wear long rubber gloves and a respirator when treating (mass soaking) my gear.
No way I would apply it directly to my skin.
Even dry some people have allergic reactions.
Treat your clothes and apply either deet or picaridin to your skin. Picaridin is safer especially for children.
I am actually in the process of sending clothing to insect shield to be treated with permethrin. I'm doing it this way both because they claim their professional treatment lasts substantially longer and because I don't want to get involved in messing with the liquid chemicals.
Permethrin may be nasty, but so is the Doxycycline prescription used to treat Lyme, I've taken it four times in my life and am hoping I never have to take it again.
coach lou
03-24-2016, 11:44
Our work crew has been out already....and report that the ticks are thick in Harriman already! Be prepared!
swisscross
03-24-2016, 11:56
I am actually in the process of sending clothing to insect shield to be treated with permethrin. I'm doing it this way both because they claim their professional treatment lasts substantially longer and because I don't want to get involved in messing with the liquid chemicals.
Permethrin may be nasty, but so is the Doxycycline prescription used to treat Lyme, I've taken it four times in my life and am hoping I never have to take it again.
I am wondering what they do differently to treat clothing?
Sounds like their claim of 70 washes might be exaggerated or Sawyer is being conservative with their 7 washes.
Yes have or treat your clothing. My wife has had to take Doxycycline a couple of times and will agree it is a nasty drug.
TwoSpirits
03-24-2016, 12:15
I sprayed my clothes (ALL of my clothes -- socks, boxers, pants, t-shirt, and hat) with the spray version from Sawyer. Hung the clothes outside on a line, made sure the cats were in, and just sprayed everything down evenly. No fuss, no muss, and wasn't bothered even a little tiny bit by mosquitoes or black flies during my time in the HWM, nor by any ticks or anything else here in Indiana. (I also lightly sprayed the outside of my pack and the inner of my tent, for good measure.)
Once dried, the permethrin had no smell, no residue. I didn't notice any skin reaction (maybe because I sprayed it on only the outside of my clothes, and not so much as to completely soak through the clothing.)
In my reading on the stuff, permethrin is regarded as completely safe when used correctly on clothing, but even though it is derived from natural sources (marigolds or something, I forget) I would be hesitant to apply it directly to my skin.
If applying it at home and you have cats, be sure they are nowhere around as you treat your stuff. In its liquid state, permethrin is extremely toxic to cats. Once everything has dried, then it's fine.
dzierzak
03-24-2016, 12:19
...
In my reading on the stuff, permethrin is regarded as completely safe when used correctly on clothing, but even though it is derived from natural sources (marigolds or something, I forget) I would be hesitant to apply it directly to my skin...
It's not made for the skin.
TwoSpirits
03-24-2016, 12:25
Just after posting, I remembered that I have in fact heard about "permethrin cream" from a nurse friend of mine. A quick text to her informs me that it is prescribed (only prescribed) for treatment of some skin conditions like scabies...and that patients are instructed to wash it off after 8-12 hours.
swisscross
03-24-2016, 12:41
It's not made for the skin.
Yet it is applied directly to horses.
Old Grouse
03-24-2016, 12:56
Yet it is applied directly to horses.
Reminds me of the old song that goes "Cocaine's for horses, not for men. The doctors say it kills you but they didn't say when."
Odd Man Out
03-24-2016, 12:57
Permethrin has been extensively tested amd it's toxicity to humans is relatively low. But it is only effective dried on clothing that you are wearing as a repellent and insecticide. Wiping your skin with a dry cloth makes no sense. When dry, the permethrin will not come off so wiping has no effect. If it did come off, it would be neutralized by your skin. If it wasn't, you would be getting the exposure you are trying to avoid. BTW, water and wet wipes are also chemicals so you do apparently do like some chemicals on your skin.
colorado_rob
03-24-2016, 12:57
Yet it is applied directly to horses.It's also prescribed for numerous skin ailments on humans, like rosacea and other rash-type of things (like scabies mentioned below) supposedly caused by skin mites.
Lucky you, Americans...
We have ticks, we have Lyme and we have Encephalitis.
We can buy pre-treated outdoor clothes, and we can buy Permethrin in several forms (spray, liquid, cream,...).
But I have yet to find a company within reasonable shipping distance to treat my clothes!
Offshore
03-24-2016, 13:12
I am wondering what they do differently to treat clothing?
Sounds like their claim of 70 washes might be exaggerated or Sawyer is being conservative with their 7 washes.
Yes have or treat your clothing. My wife has had to take Doxycycline a couple of times and will agree it is a nasty drug.
There's actually data on EPA's web site (sorry - don't have the link handy) that show it is effective through 70 washings. InsectShield treated clothing has an EPA pesticide registration number and demonstrating efficacy is a part of the pesticide registration process.
I'd suspect that InsectShield treatment involves a combination of higher concentrations and pressure in order to maximize the amount of permethrin molecules bound to the fabric. (It bonds poorly to skin, so is ineffective when applied dermally). I've both bought pretreated clothing and sent my own into InsectShield for treatment and have had good luck with both. The InsectShield is a lot more convenient, and as elf says, avoid having to deal with the wet permethrin liquid and mist.
trailsean
03-24-2016, 13:32
Thank you to everyone for your comments and information, it is greatly appreciated. My original thought process was that if a tick came in contact with dry treated clothing and would die, then rubbing a dry treated wash cloth over your skin would have the same effect, killing ticks as you passed over them. I would not want to put it directly on my skin. But it sounds like the best course of action is to apply it to clothing and do a good check each night before bed.
Thanks again everyone.
Permetherin was developed to fight malaria, the world's most widespread disease. It has had positive effects around the world. The military uses boatloads of it. It is effective on both ticks and mosquitos.
My wife and I used it on our clothes, packs, tent, etc when we hiked in Maine (Andover to Katahdin; 3 weeks) in June-July some years ago. We were able to wear shorts and short sleeved shirts with little problem. Others wearing long clothes were engulfed in clouds of mossys and had a miserable trip.
We are lucky to have this helpful chemical to increase our pleasure and avoid disease.
Mammals (except for cats, they are missing a gene combination that every other mammal has) metabolizes permethrin, rendering it non-toxic to bugs. That's why it's ineffective spread on your skin. It bonds to clothing fibers very well. At a certain concentration, it's an effective neuro-toxin to insects, killing them. At lower concentrations, bugs aren't killed, but I imagine they get the same reaction that we do to mammalian neurotoxins at low levels. Itchy skin, watery eyes, extremely uncomfortable, so the bugs avoid it, just like we would avoid poison gas.
I haven't had any ticks on me since I started treating my clothing with permethrin.
Uhh, permethrin is not intended for skin contact. Directions specifically mention not applying to skin which sounds to me as is exactly what you're doing by wiping it on a rag and then wiping the rag on your exposed skin?
Repelling ticks is simple by combining a carrier oil such as almond oil diluted with a small amount of essential oils such lavender, lemongrass, citronella, eucalyptus, lemon(Aura cacia), cedar wood, peppermint, rose geranium, and/or tea tree. It smells great(it's a deodorant, reduces the funky smells of trail grime on oneself and fungus in shoes!), CAN BE APPLIED TO SKIN WHEN USED AS DIRECTED, is non greasy, is a natural moisturizer/anti friction salve(I put it on my feet too!), has additional possible healing properties, and a stack of scientific evidence and historical studies have proved over and over it's efficacy. No need for permethrin or DEET. Don't be goaded into believing the marketing that permethrin or DEET are the only effective insect repellents and alarming hype to protect yourself from insect bearing diseases by only purchasing and applying chemicals.
Heck, three small 100% essential oils - peppermint, lavender, and rose geranium bought at WalMart in the vitamin aisle of the pharmacy and a 6 oz bottle of 100% almond oil bought at Whole Foods $22 TOTAL has served me through making insect repellents on four different occasions. I did add 15 drops of tea tree oil to the mix which I already had. I use a convenient 2 oz light wt Finger Tip Sprayer(Spritzer bottle) also bought at WalMart for .99 cts in the Traveling Size aisle again in the Pharmacy Dept. for carrying it all in a mix inside a Snack size Ziploc. For longer hikes I may bring up to 6 oz supply.
Tea tree oil is in the same place in the vitamin aisle. Tea tree oil is used by Australians for a plethora of uses including it's anti bacterial anti fungal efficacy. Wipe/spray on skin and pants leg hems around ankles, on wrists and shirt sleeves, shoes, and spray on a hat. Preferably wear light colored pants, shoes, etc so you can see any ticks that might crawl on you. Do a tick check at night and possibly mid day.
The main down side of the essential oils, which the military was well aware of when they went with DEET and permethrin options, is that it has to be applied more often NOT what you want a soldier to be doing when they should be holding a weapon not applying and reapplying insect repellents. I'm sure the military received a handsome low cost deal with the quantity they agreed to purchasing too.
perdidochas
03-24-2016, 17:22
It's not made for the skin.
There are versions of permethrin used on the skin--most lice treatments are permethrin.
Rain Man
03-24-2016, 18:10
My original thought process was that if a tick came in contact with dry treated clothing and would die, then rubbing a dry treated wash cloth over your skin would have the same effect, killing ticks as you passed over them.
That's what I thought you meant as I just now read your OP. However, it doesn't act that quickly. To my knowledge, a simple quick swipe would not be enough to kill a tick.
Christoph
03-24-2016, 18:39
Just looked at the MSDS for Permetherin. Good reading:
http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp7GD005.pdf
I treated all my clothing, tent, and pack with it and never had any issues (ticks or rashes, etc). I'd do it again but definitely make sure to read the precautions and you'll be fine.
Our work crew has been out already....and report that the ticks are thick in Harriman already! Be prepared!
Ditto that. I was at Harriman last weekend and made the mistake of bushwhacking for about 50 yards. I pulled off 4 ticks.
Sarcasm the elf
03-24-2016, 18:47
Ditto that. I was at Harriman last weekend and made the mistake of bushwhacking for about 50 yards. I pulled off 4 ticks.
Could be worse, last time I bushwacked in Harriman I nearly got a ticket. :o
Wise Old Owl
03-24-2016, 20:38
please DO NOT apply thy chemicals to thy skin.
Yet it is applied directly to horses.
Horses have hair
WingedMonkey
03-24-2016, 21:00
In my reading on the stuff, permethrin is regarded as completely safe when used correctly on clothing, but even though it is derived from natural sources (marigolds or something, I forget) I would be hesitant to apply it directly to my skin.
To make things more confusing:
Permethrin is the synthetic chemical version of the natural pesticide pyrethrin.
It is pyrethrin that comes from extracts of the Chrysanthemum Daisy and is used as an organic insecticide.
Both have the same effect on insects and fish and invertebrates.The natural version breaks down faster in the environment.
Yes, I had it prescribed in ointment form for scabies, too. Had to use it for a couple of days, 24 hours each day, with thoroughly scrubbing it off in the shower in between applications. It's not great for direct skin; ointments come with warnings about this. Check with your doctor, first.
Traillium
03-24-2016, 22:41
Just looked at the MSDS for Permetherin. Good reading:
http://www.cdms.net/LDat/mp7GD005.pdf
I treated all my clothing, tent, and pack with it and never had any issues (ticks or rashes, etc). I'd do it again but definitely make sure to read the precautions and you'll be fine.
I believe that's an MSDS for a particular formulation of permethrin. Note the other ingredients.
I'd be looking at the specific MSDS for the formulation you are going to use, i.e., Sawyer spray version. For one thing, it will be a drastically lower concentration, with other ingredients.
Bruce Traillium
There are versions of permethrin used on the skin--most lice treatments are permethrin.
Right but different situation and different product. Permethrin products sold in outfitters, sporting goods stores, etc as an insect repellent is directed to be sprayed on the OUTSIDE of clothing or in some cases washed into gear and NOT intended for skin contact as permethrin, which is NOT a "natural" chemical, it is a synthetic chemical, that acts in some ways as the naturally occurring extracts derived from chrysanthemum flowers, is absorbed transdermally through the skin to about 1 %. 1% sounds like nothing easily being dismissed but endocrine disruptors of which both DEET and permethrin are strongly suspected of can have negative health effects in very small amounts especially on more susceptible people like children, immune system impaired individuals which to some extent includes much of the U.S. population, frequent/long term users, and those who already are contending with a heavy toxic load lifestyle.
I used to wash an Insect Shield ExOfficio(permethrin laced) cloth bandanna in water until I found out how toxic permethrin is to fish life and animals that live in and near the water.
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html
perdidochas
03-25-2016, 09:31
Right but different situation and different product. Permethrin products sold in outfitters, sporting goods stores, etc as an insect repellent is directed to be sprayed on the OUTSIDE of clothing or in some cases washed into gear and NOT intended for skin contact as permethrin, which is NOT a "natural" chemical, it is a synthetic chemical, that acts in some ways as the naturally occurring extracts derived from chrysanthemum flowers, is absorbed transdermally through the skin to about 1 %. 1% sounds like nothing easily being dismissed but endocrine disruptors of which both DEET and permethrin are strongly suspected of can have negative health effects in very small amounts especially on more susceptible people like children, immune system impaired individuals which to some extent includes much of the U.S. population, frequent/long term users, and those who already are contending with a heavy toxic load lifestyle.
I used to wash an Insect Shield ExOfficio(permethrin laced) cloth bandanna in water until I found out how toxic permethrin is to fish life and animals that live in and near the water.
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html
Always follow the directions and use things appropriately.
Christoph
03-25-2016, 20:46
I believe that's an MSDS for a particular formulation of permethrin. Note the other ingredients.
I'd be looking at the specific MSDS for the formulation you are going to use, i.e., Sawyer spray version. For one thing, it will be a drastically lower concentration, with other ingredients.
Bruce Traillium
You are correct. There's too many different formulas out there for sure. This one seems to be a little on the nasty side. Haha Thanks, I didn't think of that one.
cmoulder
03-25-2016, 21:39
Could be worse, last time I bushwacked in Harriman I nearly got a ticket. :o
Now what kind of moron bushwhacks in Harriman? (:D)
Turk6177
03-25-2016, 21:47
I hiked through the 100 mile wilderness in Maine in June when the mosquitoes were at their peak. My clothes were treated with permethrin and it really saved my skin. I saw the looks on the faces of fellow hikers who did not have any treatment for their clothes. They looked like their spirits were drained out of them. Never underestimate the power of thousands of buzzing mosquitoes. I am a big proponent of permethrin. I am not sure if you wiped down with a permethrin treated cloth will work, however, I would apply bug spray if the mosquitoes are crazy. Get in the habit of doing a nightly tick check.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sarcasm the elf
03-25-2016, 22:42
Now what kind of moron bushwhacks in Harriman? (:D)
In fairness it was one of my first times in the park and I didn't understand the rules. I'm sure that if I went to the park regularly then I would have know better.
:banana
rocketsocks
03-26-2016, 00:55
My daily constitutional always happens at the end of a bushwhack, no matter what woods I'm in.
Offshore
03-26-2016, 06:48
To make things more confusing:
The natural version breaks down faster in the environment.
Not confusing, just wrong. As long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound. There is nothing magical about "naturally-occurring", except for its use by marketers to take advantage of the public's overall scientific illiteracy and the magical extra profit this designation creates.
WingedMonkey
03-26-2016, 09:01
Not confusing, just wrong. As long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound. There is nothing magical about "naturally-occurring", except for its use by marketers to take advantage of the public's overall scientific illiteracy and the magical extra profit this designation creates.
I never said there was any thing magical...it fact I said both were just as much poison.
What I was pointing out to the poster was that permethrin does not come from "some kinda flower".
The reason that i said pyrethrin sold as organic pesticide breaks down faster in the environment is because it doesn't contain petroleum distillates or other additives which almost all permethrin sold as pesticide does.
plodalong
03-26-2016, 17:04
Great thread!!! Really appreciate the intelligent info here! It answered a great many questions. Heading to CT in mid April so want to be on the ball on this. As long as I have all you smart folks here...Any clues, cautions, concerns or advice about treating our EE Revelations, 850 with downtek if that matters?
nsherry61
03-26-2016, 18:07
Not confusing, just wrong. As long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound. . .
But, in this case, the synthesized permethrin is not exactly the same and the flower extract. The synthetic is functionally and chemically similar, and inspired by the natural product. BUT, the synthetic version has significantly increased activity and longevity relative the it's natural analog. The synthetic molecule is significantly "enhanced".
Another Kevin
03-26-2016, 18:24
In fairness it was one of my first times in the park and I didn't understand the rules. I'm sure that if I went to the park regularly then I would have know better.
:banana
I've never had any trouble with the rangers when I've simply asked in advance. "Is it OK if I lead a party in to the old mining camp at ..." or words to that effect. They just get annoyed if they thing you're going in unprepared or uninformed. They really don't want to have to retrieve people from mineshafts or wells, or dig them out from collapsed foundation walls, that sort of thing. There's still a lot of industrial wasteland in there.
(Elf, I know you know that... this is for the others.)
Sarcasm the elf
03-26-2016, 18:33
Double post...
Sarcasm the elf
03-26-2016, 18:34
Great thread!!! Really appreciate the intelligent info here! It answered a great many questions. Heading to CT in mid April so want to be on the ball on this. As long as I have all you smart folks here...Any clues, cautions, concerns or advice about treating our EE Revelations, 850 with downtek if that matters?
Personally I wouldn't want to treat a quilt (or tent for that matter). Ticks primarily attach to their hosts by climbing on objects such as tall grasses, bushes or other objects in areas frequented by animals and then grab on to them when they pass by. I am treating my pants and shirt this year for the first time, possibly my hat as we
Not confusing, just wrong. As long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound. There is nothing magical about "naturally-occurring", except for its use by marketers to take advantage of the public's overall scientific illiteracy and the magical extra profit this designation creates.
LOL. Well synthesizing a naturally occurring compound(extract) usually makes the chemical synthesis patentable so lots of "non magical extra profit potential" involved in that too! No specific extra scientific literacy needed to understand motivation for having a patent that could be monopolized for profit.
Rightly so though, good point made that marketing of the term "natural" isn't always what people are led to believe it is or it should be equated as being "safe" with no very problematic side effects. That can be a huge fallacy! Untold number of "natural" labels on things are just a marketing label holding no real legal or scientific definition. Agreed, synthesized compounds of a "naturally occurring" compound don't necessarily equate with being bad or better than the "natural" version. However, I absolutely disagree with this statement, "as long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound." This should be reviewed comparably on a case by case basis. The notion of what is being defined "synthetic" and "natural" sometimes involves a scientific gray area in itself. :) And, synthesized compounds can, and sometimes often are, combined with other compounds which we know nothing or little about in how the product behaves synergistically. See nsherry picked up on it too.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Offshore http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2054225#post2054225)
Not confusing, just wrong. As long as a pure compound has the same chemical formula as the synthetic version, there is absolutely no difference between naturally-occurring and manufactured samples of that compound. . .
But, in this case, the synthesized permethrin is not exactly the same and the flower extract. The synthetic is functionally and chemically similar, and inspired by the natural product. BUT, the synthetic version has significantly increased activity and longevity relative the it's natural analog. The synthetic molecule is significantly "enhanced".
Interesting, at least to me, who has worked with pyrethrum in the ornamental horticultural field and in organic food production the history of it as an economic entity in regards to insect repellency. Lack of "natural" product in the supply chain at times has likely resulted in motivations to synthesize. The effective life of naturally ocurring pyrethrums likely has something also to do with synthesizing active compounds. http://www.bugfreebackyards.com/pyrethrum.htm
One can find Chrysanthemum Oil with naturally occurring Pyrethrum from which contain the naturally active ingredients pyrethrins extracted from African Daisy(Chrysanthemum cineraria), NOT to be confused with permethrin a synthetic pyrethroid, and making your own repellent. These specific plants are commonly sold at big box home improvement stores in rather large amounts as annuals and, in some areas, as perennials. I've actually dried the flowers of this plant and made my own pyrethrum dust.
AGAIN, several essential oils have proven biting insect repelling properties.
TexasBob
03-26-2016, 21:32
You guys are confusing pyrethrins with permethrin. Pyrethrins are found in Chrysanthemum cinerarifolium flowers, Permethrins are synthetic chemicals with similar chemical structure to pyrethrins created to have enhanced insecticide properties and low mammalian toxicity.
I am actually in the process of sending clothing to insect shield to be treated with permethrin. I'm doing it this way both because they claim their professional treatment lasts substantially longer and because I don't want to get involved in messing with the liquid chemicals.
Permethrin may be nasty, but so is the Doxycycline prescription used to treat Lyme, I've taken it four times in my life and am hoping I never have to take it again.
I plan on using their services in the future....we have cats and I am always worried I will screw up and track some into the house
Offshore
03-27-2016, 09:56
What I was pointing out to the poster was that permethrin does not come from "some kinda flower".
The reason that i said pyrethrin sold as organic pesticide breaks down faster in the environment is because it doesn't contain petroleum distillates or other additives which almost all permethrin sold as pesticide does.
Yes, you did: "It is pyrethrin that comes from extracts of the Chrysanthemum Daisy and is used as an organic insecticide." And whether pyrethrins is from flowers or the Agway, the breakdown is the same because the molecules are the same. Breakdown of inactive ingredients and carriers such as petroleum distillates or water are another matter, which is why I referred to "pure compounds".
Odd Man Out
03-27-2016, 09:58
I think most people are correct, just in different contexts. Some will tell you that a naturally derived substance is better than synthetic. But if is a pure substance, this is not true. Go to the vitamin aisle and you will find the narural vitamins selling at a premium. Once the molecule gets in your enzyme it makes no difference. Of course the formulation in the product you consume may be different, but in the context of a vitamin pill, that is so far from natural, paying a premium for natural makes no sense. This is the context in which this comment is relevent. But as pointed out, permethrin is not natural, but a synthetic derrivative of a natural substance. This alone does not not make it good or bad, effective or not, just as natural non-synthetic substances are not inherently safe and/or effective. It just helps to use consistent and accurate terminoligy.
WingedMonkey
03-27-2016, 11:08
Breakdown of inactive ingredients and carriers such as petroleum distillates or water are another matter, which is why I referred to "pure compounds".
Let me know when you buy some "pure compound" of permethrin on the market.
Commercial pesticides are made to last for a reason.
Offshore
03-27-2016, 12:49
But, in this case, the synthesized permethrin is not exactly the same and the flower extract. The synthetic is functionally and chemically similar, and inspired by the natural product. BUT, the synthetic version has significantly increased activity and longevity relative the it's natural analog. The synthetic molecule is significantly "enhanced".
Then its not the same molecule.
Offshore
03-27-2016, 12:52
Let me know when you buy some "pure compound" of permethrin on the market.
Commercial pesticides are made to last for a reason.
That may well be, but your thesis that "natural" permethin is somehow different that synthesized permethrin is just flat out wrong. Of course, various commercial mixtures of insecticides with permethin as the active ingredient are bound to be different, but that's not how you started out...
I buy the concentrated stuff from the feed store (usually in 38% containers) and mix it to the same emulsion strength in the spray bottles (I think its .5% - whatever's on the package). Two ounces per gallon if I remember right, I haven't done it since last April.
I usually mix 3 gallons in a big plastic bucket outside and soak my hiking clothes. Push them around in it with a big stick, let sit for about ten minutes, then push them around some more, let sit and then hang over the porch railing. Then I dump the leftovers into a garden sprayer, and spray around the outside of my house along there the bottom of the house meets the brick wall (near what would be the top of the crawl space if you were underneath. It helps keep out ants and stuff in the summer.
Yes, I have been told this is not how its supposed to be used, there is some kind of petroleum stuff in the mix. But I let them air dry outside for about three days. I've had no skin issues from it, and I'm usually happily bug free. Apparently this stuff is bad for cats, I can attest I haven't had a cat infestation since using it, so that may be true.
That may well be, but your thesis that "natural" permethin is somehow different that synthesized permethrin is just flat out wrong. Of course, various commercial mixtures of insecticides with permethin as the active ingredient are bound to be different, but that's not how you started out...
This gets to the crux of what's being discussed. AGAIN, there is NO "NATURAL" Permethrin as it is a pyrethroid - a synthetic chemical - a known neurotoxin. No matter how one defines "natural" it does NOT occur in Nature. It is synthesized in a lab to act similar to NATURAL EXTRACTS from African Daisy(Chrysanthemum cinerariifolium or C. coccineum) labeled for centuries as Pyrethrum - a NATURAL insecticide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrum
This is reminiscent of the artificial sweetener Splenda or sucalose listed as an ingredient to sound much like the NATURALLY occurring sugar sucrose that IMHO is intended to confuse and mislead people.
Odd Man Out
03-27-2016, 21:29
I've read the propaganda about sucralose, both for and against. It's chlorinated sucrose. Those opposed said it was made from chlorine which is a highly toxic gas. Those for said it was made from chlorine which is found in ordinary table salt. Both arguments are equally stupid for the same reason. Both sides could have used valid and compelling arguments based on valid science but chose the stupid way out, relying on the gullibility of most people.
WingedMonkey
03-28-2016, 09:06
I buy the concentrated stuff from the feed store (usually in 38% containers) and mix it to the same emulsion strength in the spray bottles (I think its .5% - whatever's on the package)..
So do I for treating my clothes (permethrin). Because I want it to last.
And I use pyrethrum (occasionally) on my vegetables because I don't want it to last. I'm still extra careful not to get it in my aquatic gardens or any where I don't want it.
I have used clothing repellents developed by the US Army containing Permethrin since at least the mid 1980's. They work very well and I highly recommend them. However I have to strongly urge you to follow the package instructions. On the spray formulations use outside and avoid breathing the spray. Liquid formulations use gloves , keep it off your skin and allow the clothing to completely air dry before wearing it.
I used it on all of my uniforms that I wore every day for 16 years and have used it on my work clothes the last 15 years since I retired from the army. Works great but use it as directed.
mortonjl
04-02-2016, 05:36
Used it for years with no problems
stillatit
04-03-2016, 20:44
A couple of on-topic links from the past that are worthy looking at:
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/109389-New-deadly-tick-borne-virus?p=1948342&highlight=#post1948342
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/104183-Soaking-gear-in-permethrin?p=1880543&highlight=#post1880543
Wise Old Owl
04-03-2016, 21:16
Then its not the same molecule.
Uh so what.
Add a extra electron and it's now proprietary to corporations, to be a new "formula" ... I have seen the same issues in bait - termaticides. Sentricon termites for example. Folks - Permethrin does not kill all insects. it has a Lethal Dose to say 50% out there. When combined or fused with neonicotinoid (tobacco derivative) It has far more killing power.