72 miles in 2 days - my attempt

[Stevep311]

Hello All,

I kinda got shunned in the general forum when I asked questions about this so I will bring my discussion here. I had a goal to do the Smokies in 2 days (roughly 72 miles). First day gaol was to make it from Fontana Hilton to Mt Collins Shelter & 2nd day from there to Davenport Gap. I did NOT make it. I did manage to hike 37.5 miles to Mt Collins Shelter but woke up the next morning with lots of pain in my knees and managed to get myself to Newfound Gap 4.2 miles further north (very slowly) so that I could get a shuttle ride back to my car.

I trained by doing 3 months worth of P90X, running 3-6 miles everyday for 3 months, and on the weekends I did a couple dozen hikes with my 2 year old strapped to my back--she and the pack are equivalent to 3x the weight of the total pack weight I used on my attempt.

My heart was in it, but again my knees just did not allow me to go the 2nd day. How could I have trained better for this?

[Malto]

Can you give a bit of background on how many high mile (30+) days that you done, how recent, how many back to back, typical elevation gain etc. one thing to consider is that you did by far the toughest day of the two. I did a 50 mile day, out and back south from Newfound Gap and it was one of the toughest days I have done. In your case the combo of the hike up out of Fontana combined with a very tough series of climbs south of Clingmans dome had a boatload of elevation gain.

[TNhiker]

In your case the combo of the hike up out of Fontana combined with a very tough series of climbs south of Clingmans dome had a boatload of elevation gain.



yeah.....thats a helluva climb......

the only thing i can think is maybe change the terrain that you trained on------im guessing whatever terrain you trained on, wasnt like the rocky, dirt, eroded etc etc etc path that the AT is through the Park....

but, to be honest----be proud of what you did do----thats a long distance with alot of elevation........

not the average hiker can pull something like that off.........

[Pedaling Fool]

Hello All,

I kinda got shunned in the general forum when I asked questions about this so I will bring my discussion here. I had a goal to do the Smokies in 2 days (roughly 72 miles). First day gaol was to make it from Fontana Hilton to Mt Collins Shelter & 2nd day from there to Davenport Gap. I did NOT make it. I did manage to hike 37.5 miles to Mt Collins Shelter but woke up the next morning with lots of pain in my knees and managed to get myself to Newfound Gap 4.2 miles further north (very slowly) so that I could get a shuttle ride back to my car.

I trained by doing 3 months worth of P90X, running 3-6 miles everyday for 3 months, and on the weekends I did a couple dozen hikes with my 2 year old strapped to my back--she and the pack are equivalent to 3x the weight of the total pack weight I used on my attempt.

My heart was in it, but again my knees just did not allow me to go the 2nd day. How could I have trained better for this?I somewhat answered it in your other thread, copied below:

That's the thing about physical fitness, most people focus on conditioning the aerobic system, but actually the aerobic system is fairly easy to condition -- it's actually very easy; yet, we all seem to fixate on it by doing various aerobic activities. However, when we do real world things (after training) we find it's usually not the aerobic system that failed us, rather it's the musculoskeletal system, in your case it was your knees. However, there are tons of other things that it could have been, such as your back, hips, shins, feet...

Unfortunately, unlike the aerobic system, these things take time to build up. I've been running for years and I have the aerobic capacity to run all day, but I'd end up injuring something in my musculoskeletal system. The only thing you can do is do a little everyday and keep at it. Musculoskeletal conditioning is all about consistency.

It is the reason why I believe weightlifting is very important, including very heavy weights and just because one runs, or hikes, or bikes a lot is NOT a reason to skip doing lower body workouts with heavy weights.

P.S. Heavy weights are crucial, but one must ensure they first develop a very solid base with lighter weights before grunting with the heavy stuff.


However, to answer your more specific question: "How could I have trained better for this?"

One important thing needs to be known. How was your general fitness prior to your training for this endeavor?


The reason that is important is because the more active a lifestyle the better off you are; however, if you've lived a somewhat sedentary lifestyle than the preparations for completing this goal will take more time. It takes a lot of time and patience to build up a strong frame and if you try and hurry that process, especially at your age, you will eventually injure yourself.

Bottom line: Developing a strong frame (you already have the cardio conditioning to do it) takes time and patience. Furthermore, if you keep working yourself to injury, like you did on this last attempt the longer it may take you to get to that goal.


You're much better off doing consistently shorter hikes than these once-in-awhile record setting hikes.

[Grampie]

Only one question. WHY?

[TNhiker]

Only one question. WHY?





from the other thread---

"Cause I hate sleeping in shelters?"

[TNhiker]

and to be honest-----

he doesnt really need to answer that question...


after all, it is HIS hike......

[Malto]

Only one question. WHY?

Please read the rules of this sub forum. It was bad enough that the OP got trashed on the other thread.

[Lone Wolf]

Only one question. WHY?

trail running and speed hiking forum. that's why. go elsewhere

[Stevep311]

Can you give a bit of background on how many high mile (30+) days that you done, how recent, how many back to back, typical elevation gain etc. one thing to consider is that you did by far the toughest day of the two. I did a 50 mile day, out and back south from Newfound Gap and it was one of the toughest days I have done. In your case the combo of the hike up out of Fontana combined with a very tough series of climbs south of Clingmans dome had a boatload of elevation gain.

The most I had done in the past was 20 mile day, but I was carrying 25 - 30lbs and this time I cut it down to approx 13lbs. Additionally I dropped from 182lbs down to 167 as a result of my workouts. This was a first for me in "long distance" hiking and I knew it'd be a stretch to make it. So I concede that I am a beginner but I was willing to put in the hours and sweat to meet the goal. I just think I really underestimated how much it would wear on my body, specifically my knees.

I knew that the first day was going to be really tough due to the elevation climbs, but strategically I thought leaving the 2nd day as an "easier" one made sense.

[Stevep311]

trail running and speed hiking forum. that's why. go elsewhere

Thank you Lone Wolf!

[Stevep311]

I somewhat answered it in your other thread, copied below:



However, to answer your more specific question: "How could I have trained better for this?"

One important thing needs to be known. How was your general fitness prior to your training for this endeavor?


The reason that is important is because the more active a lifestyle the better off you are; however, if you've lived a somewhat sedentary lifestyle than the preparations for completing this goal will take more time. It takes a lot of time and patience to build up a strong frame and if you try and hurry that process, especially at your age, you will eventually injure yourself.

Bottom line: Developing a strong frame (you already have the cardio conditioning to do it) takes time and patience. Furthermore, if you keep working yourself to injury, like you did on this last attempt the longer it may take you to get to that goal.


You're much better off doing consistently shorter hikes than these once-in-awhile record setting hikes.

Your thoughts on relaxing the cardio workouts a bit and "developing a stronger frame" make sense to me after my experience. I guess the only way I could have succeeded would have been to do several weeks worth of long day hikes beforehand and somehow incorporated these into my training. I know that probably sounds like such an obvious statement but I just don't have the time to do those every week. I guess there is no substitute.

[Rasputen]

Nice job! 37.5 is a good day.
Did the 72 in 2 days Oct 2013 at the age of 50 with my 25 year old nephew. Always enjoyed pushing myself a little.
Have been a hiker and runner for 35+years and really did nothing special to prep for it. I just went for it and enjoyed it.
Thinking about doing it again-just because.. Hope you find the inspiration again and succeed! It's just walking....

[Malto]

The most I had done in the past was 20 mile day, but I was carrying 25 - 30lbs and this time I cut it down to approx 13lbs. Additionally I dropped from 182lbs down to 167 as a result of my workouts. This was a first for me in "long distance" hiking and I knew it'd be a stretch to make it. So I concede that I am a beginner but I was willing to put in the hours and sweat to meet the goal. I just think I really underestimated how much it would wear on my body, specifically my knees.

I knew that the first day was going to be really tough due to the elevation climbs, but strategically I thought leaving the 2nd day as an "easier" one made sense.

I don't believe you were close to ready to attempt this distance on back to back days. Overall fitness is one thing but you have to be in top HIKING shape which requires much more distance training than a couple of 20 mile days. I believe hiking a 30 mile day is twice as hard as 20 over similar terrain. My first 30 was after a couple of low 20s and I could hardly walk the next day. Seriously, I would declare victory if you recover from this without having some short/mid term issues. Jumping from 20 to 36 with incredibly tough terrain was a hill too many. But, once you recover you can build your way up in a more gradual fashion. Also, doing back to back 36s is yet another whole level of beyond just a single. I would have suggested at least a couple 40 mile days before attempting this trip.

[Stevep311]

I don't believe you were close to ready to attempt this distance on back to back days. Overall fitness is one thing but you have to be in top HIKING shape which requires much more distance training than a couple of 20 mile days. I believe hiking a 30 mile day is twice as hard as 20 over similar terrain. My first 30 was after a couple of low 20s and I could hardly walk the next day. Seriously, I would declare victory if you recover from this without having some short/mid term issues. Jumping from 20 to 36 with incredibly tough terrain was a hill too many. But, once you recover you can build your way up in a more gradual fashion. Also, doing back to back 36s is yet another whole level of beyond just a single. I would have suggested at least a couple 40 mile days before attempting this trip.

All good points that I completely agree with, hindsight is.......Anyway, you're spot on about the short/mid term issues. My left knee is still tender (probably a minor sprain) a week and a half later. Not too worried. I learned a lot and still actually enjoyed myself. It was the first time that I've gone with less than 20lbs on my back and I will never go back to anything more. That part was truly liberating. The other bright side was that I got to spend most of the 2nd day at Standing Bear Farm/Hostel where i got to relax and drink several Pabst Blue Ribbons. Which is ironic since so many previous posters have said that one should take it easy and relax more while out there. If anyone has the chance I would highly recommend a stay there.

Thank you all for your input and support!!

[Dogwood]

I feel your pain. I was a mid 20's avg UL hiker with excellent endurance hiking for up to 16 hrs/day for wks at a time with no zeros but at a moderate pace when I did my first 30, a 33 miler in the rocky roller coaster trails of the Adirondaks in an on again off again day rain. I was uncomfortably tight for days after that not really capable without some significant physical hardship to back it up with another 30+. Fortunately, it was just a day hike. I went out too fast(stupid and I ultimately knew it but I didn't thoroughly preview the hike thinking it was only a mid 20 mile hike, that's what I was told) with two egomaniac competitive gung ho go go go brothers one a near Olympic cyclist and professional motocross racer and the other a triathlete nutritionist. They were sore too but they only did this as a day hike and could rest when I had to get back on the AT to complete a thru-hike two days later.

Malto is the creepy ;) animal hiker on this thread. I agree with him. Although, carrying 25 - 30lbs and this time cutting it down to approx 13lbs and dropping from 182lbs down to 167 as a result workouts were steps in the right direction to achieve the goal I fully agree with all this having experienced it myself: "I don't believe you were close to ready to attempt this distance on back to back days. Overall fitness is one thing but you have to be in top HIKING shape which requires much more distance training than a couple of 20 mile days. I believe hiking a 30 mile day is twice as hard as 20 over similar terrain. My first 30 was after a couple of low 20s and I could hardly walk the next day. Seriously, I would declare victory if you recover from this without having some short/mid term issues. Jumping from 20 to 36 with incredibly tough terrain was a hill too many. But, once you recover you can build your way up in a more gradual fashion. Also, doing back to back 36s is yet another whole level of beyond just a single." I tried going from strong mid-high 20's being physically comfortable to 30+ dailies on a SHR thru and several CDT Colorado high elevation off trail alternates and doing several 14ers on a 30+ mile Colorado Trail thru and it wasn't happening on back to back to back days.

It's about training for distance on this type of terrain that includes the elevation changes on consecutive days that I would be looking at in prep for this goal.

[rafe]

I trained by doing 3 months worth of P90X, running 3-6 miles everyday for 3 months, and on the weekends I did a couple dozen hikes with my 2 year old strapped to my back--she and the pack are equivalent to 3x the weight of the total pack weight I used on my attempt.

How much of that hiking was on terrain similar to the Smokies? How did you decide that you could do this?

I'm a wuss, so I'd never really consider even trying what you did. But if I did, I think I would build up to it, you know? A pair of 20 mile days, then a pair of 25 mile days, etc. Maybe that's just me.

OK, so maybe the Smokies (with their shelter reservation requirements) aren't the best venue for that sort of practice. Why the Smokies, then? There's plenty of other challenging terrain on the AT, some it just north or south of GSMNP.

[Dogwood]

I've personally witnessed FKTs and some of the elite of the elite fastest hikers. I know Malto has too. Heck, he's one of them. Some may say it's about hiking long durations. From what I've observed when it was thought no one was watching these folks tend to hike at a fast no nonsense pace too plus long durations. Poof. Gone. Oh there they are going over that rise far far away. LOL.

[rafe]

Anecdotal but vaguely relevant... My first 20 mile day was coming into Davenport Gap northbound. It was on a dare, kind of. I felt OK that evening but the next day it was a struggle just doing 14. That was with a monster pack. Anyway, I saw that repeated many times in different ways by many hikers. A huge day followed by a crawl.

[Dogwood]

Well, we can safely state you took a shot at expanding your comfort zone. LOL. ;) I say stay at the training if you you feel physically up to it. Take another shot at it. But first do back to back 28's or even 30's on gentler terrain. And, take care of those knees. Perhaps, work in some natural anti inflammatory foods and supplements aimed at joints into the training.

[Just Bill]

"Onewho is unused to long marches may get along pretty well the first day, but onthe second morning it will seem as if he could not drag one foot after theother." Horace Kephart

simple as that I think, from the fella who helped found the park you tried to cross too.

back to back long days, as Malto mentioned, is probably what you were missing.

keep at it, sounds like a great trip

[dudeijuststarted]

dude you didn't get shunned, you asked one question in that forum: "Is this goal unreasonable?" You should have asked what you wanted to ask, i.e. "How could I have trained better for this?"

People took time to respond to you and some told you their opinion that it was unreasonable, but their reasons why weren't satisfactory to you. Don't be a jerk.

[shelb]

As your injury/pain indicates and as many posters advised, you upped your activity a bit too much beyond your training level. This is way too common - for A.T. hikers, runners, and many others.

I decided to do a Tri-athanlon this summer. My first time on the bike, I rode 15 miles - after a day with a 8 mile run, figuring I could just push myself and get it done. I have spent a week in pain - WEIRD PAIN!!! I only have pain if I am on my feet or I am sitting. If I run, I do not have pain! I am pretty sure I pushed it way too much. ..

I may be wrong; however, I believe that you need to do a few things before stretching your physical limits:
- do a practice run if possible
~If not possible, do close to it, or realize you will not be able to sustain this activity more than one day (even so, you will hurt after that day!
~If you plan on multiple days, you need to go beyond the minimum you will demand on the shortest day. Do this AT LEAST two times prior to the test,

Biggest thing:
As you get older, chill - find ways to get around your physical restrictions. ~Good Luck!!!

Shelly

[AO2134]

Don't worry about others trying to measure YOUR ability and enjoyment of a hike by THEIR small measuring sticks man.

I have nothing to add as I top out at about 23-25 mpd, and that is on a easy section. I can't imagine doing that many miles in the smokies, but I wanted to support your attempts in trying it. You are not subject to my limitations or the limitations of what I imagine could be possible or enjoyable.

[illabelle]

I've learned a lot from reading comments about your attempt. I had planned that on a hike this fall through the HMW we would do 20 miles followed by 24 the next day over some of the flattest terrain. Problem is, the most we've ever done is 20, and that was once, and it took a long time. I no longer wonder whether we can do it. I know better than to try. It ain't worth the pain. We'll go at the pace that we can sustain over the distance.

[Malto]

Let me give you a couple other thoughts as you move from 20 mile days into the higher ranges.
1) Fueling becomes more important. What works for 20 may not work for 30 and beyond.
2) Hydration and Electolytes. Again, as you push the mileage limited you will likely find that you need a better strategy.
3) Chafing and blisters. This may also come in to play at some point even if you had zero issues at 20.
4) Recovery. I believe this is likely the most important and hardest to master. While I don't believe this played much of a role in your issues on day 2, it may have showed up later that day. My four goals for recovery: energy, protein, hydration and nutrition. Basically you need to give your body all the tools it needs to do maximum repair over night. Master 1 & 2 above and it will make the task easier.
5) Mental. This was your big win from your hike. How you view a certain distance mentally, say a 30 or 40 mile day, will greatly impact your chances of success. Prior to doing my first 30+ mile day I thought only the immortals like Skurka or Williamson could do distances like that. After many years of doing that distance and more on a regular basis I mentally view a 30 mile day as a relatively easy day. It changes your whole outlook. In your case, having done 37, you have broken the mental barrier and expanded the world of the possible.
6) Logistics. Little things during the day add up. Dogwood mention this above, people doing the high mileage aren't walking particularly fast, they are walking very consistently steady. As I did many of my training hikes prior to my PCT thru, I used to keep track on the time that I was stopped. It became a game to see how little time I would stop during the day. This contrasts with my earlier hiking where I would take regular breaks, which I believe are somewhat counter-productive.

Hope your recovery goes well. Sounds like you have been bitten by the bug. I suspect you will soon learn that there are many cool trips that you can now do in a limited timeframe.

[Traillium]

+1 for Malto's wisdom — and that of the many other experienced LD Hiker's here! I'm learning so much. Thanks!


Bruce Traillium

[Starchild]

Your body will allow you to do certain things for a while beyond it's limits, such as your one day hike of 37 miles. Then it goes into repair mode, which includes a way of discouraging you from doing that again for the repair process. While you may have just sprained, it sounds more like a overuse injury, of that's the case you went too far into your red zone and it is currently beyond your ability (sorry).

If you want to do it, and could push through the night (no stops), and can go slower you might be able to pull this off in two days/no sleep (or short naps), that would prevent recovery mode from knocking you on your ass till you made it thru. Don't know how you would be the next day, but there you go.

[Stevep311]

I've learned a lot from reading comments about your attempt. I had planned that on a hike this fall through the HMW we would do 20 miles followed by 24 the next day over some of the flattest terrain. Problem is, the most we've ever done is 20, and that was once, and it took a long time. I no longer wonder whether we can do it. I know better than to try. It ain't worth the pain. We'll go at the pace that we can sustain over the distance.

The last thing I want is for my experience to limit anyone else. Now, that being said, if it improves your upcoming hiking experience then that is fantastic and it makes my idea to post about this all worth it! Thank you.

[Stevep311]

Your body will allow you to do certain things for a while beyond it's limits, such as your one day hike of 37 miles. Then it goes into repair mode, which includes a way of discouraging you from doing that again for the repair process. While you may have just sprained, it sounds more like a overuse injury, of that's the case you went too far into your red zone and it is currently beyond your ability (sorry).

If you want to do it, and could push through the night (no stops), and can go slower you might be able to pull this off in two days/no sleep (or short naps), that would prevent recovery mode from knocking you on your ass till you made it thru. Don't know how you would be the next day, but there you go.

Funny thing is around 9PM of the first night I had the same thought you mention of continuing on without sleep. The rationale for it was that I had a sense that I might not be able to continue after going to sleep for 7 hours. Of course that thought lasted about a half second before I came to my senses. Admittedly I started to get pretty "wobbly" around mile 34ish--thank God for trekking poles cause I've never relied on them more! I knew I was beginning to risk serious injury if I hadn't stopped as planned.

[Stevep311]

Let me give you a couple other thoughts as you move from 20 mile days into the higher ranges.
1) Fueling becomes more important. What works for 20 may not work for 30 and beyond.
2) Hydration and Electolytes. Again, as you push the mileage limited you will likely find that you need a better strategy.
3) Chafing and blisters. This may also come in to play at some point even if you had zero issues at 20.
4) Recovery. I believe this is likely the most important and hardest to master. While I don't believe this played much of a role in your issues on day 2, it may have showed up later that day. My four goals for recovery: energy, protein, hydration and nutrition. Basically you need to give your body all the tools it needs to do maximum repair over night. Master 1 & 2 above and it will make the task easier.
5) Mental. This was your big win from your hike. How you view a certain distance mentally, say a 30 or 40 mile day, will greatly impact your chances of success. Prior to doing my first 30+ mile day I thought only the immortals like Skurka or Williamson could do distances like that. After many years of doing that distance and more on a regular basis I mentally view a 30 mile day as a relatively easy day. It changes your whole outlook. In your case, having done 37, you have broken the mental barrier and expanded the world of the possible.
6) Logistics. Little things during the day add up. Dogwood mention this above, people doing the high mileage aren't walking particularly fast, they are walking very consistently steady. As I did many of my training hikes prior to my PCT thru, I used to keep track on the time that I was stopped. It became a game to see how little time I would stop during the day. This contrasts with my earlier hiking where I would take regular breaks, which I believe are somewhat counter-productive.

Hope your recovery goes well. Sounds like you have been bitten by the bug. I suspect you will soon learn that there are many cool trips that you can now do in a limited timeframe.

Malto, thank you for taking the time! Your points are all well taken and all of them had a huge part during my hike. Regarding recovery, I wonder if I should have done some more research into natural anti-inflammatory foods. I take a fair amount of Advil but I really would have preferred an alternative. BTW, I was very concerned about blisters as I've had serious issues in the past. This hike I switched to Altra trail runners and Injinji toe socks which kept me blister free. Your comments about the mental part are very true. I am tough on myself and normally I would be pretty down for "failing", however, knocking out 37.5 in a day was a big mental win!

[rafe]

I've learned a lot from reading comments about your attempt. I had planned that on a hike this fall through the HMW we would do 20 miles followed by 24 the next day over some of the flattest terrain. Problem is, the most we've ever done is 20, and that was once, and it took a long time. I no longer wonder whether we can do it. I know better than to try. It ain't worth the pain. We'll go at the pace that we can sustain over the distance.

So many factors to consider: motivation, preparedness, weather, trail conditions, good rest the night before... and just sheer luck, or lack thereof. I'm a wuss (as previously stated) but I managed about 15 miles per day in the HMW. Last time was in 2010. Not sure if I could do that today.

I've never done two consecutive 20s. Personal best was 41 miles in two days in SNP. (21 followed by 19.) Nine years ago.... :(

I'm all for people pushing their limits. But listen to your body when it pushes back. Kudos to Stevep (the OP) for doing that.

[illabelle]

So many factors to consider: motivation, preparedness, weather, trail conditions, good rest the night before... and just sheer luck, or lack thereof. I'm a wuss (as previously stated) but I managed about 15 miles per day in the HMW. Last time was in 2010. Not sure if I could do that today.

I've never done two consecutive 20s. Personal best was 41 miles in two days in SNP. (21 followed by 19.) Nine years ago.... :(

I'm all for people pushing their limits. But listen to your body when it pushes back. Kudos to Stevep (the OP) for doing that.

I'm glad we did the one 20-mile day (Wise Shelter in GHP north to Partnership). It tells us that if we get in a situation where we have to put in those miles, it can be done. It's not like our feet will fall off, or we'll have a stroke or something. It was a mental barrier that we needed to cross that makes those 17-mile and 18-mile days less intimidating.

My motivation for planning a 20 and a 24 in the HMW was simply to reduce our time on trail (limited number of vacation days...). I've read of so many people getting through the HMW in 6 or 8 days - or less, but that seems too ambitious for us. I've added a day to the trip so we can take our time and enjoy the experience (10 days including Katahdin and Gulf Hagas, plus 2 days travel).

I think it's better for us to push our limits somewhere closer to home. I have to admit it's inspiring to read what others can accomplish! It would be interesting to stand in Malto's feet for a little while, feel the strength of the tendons and ligaments, the hardness of the callouses, the eagerness to leap up the hill.
:)

[CamelMan]

Congratulations on your big day, Steve. (Something like that is currently just in my dreams.) I hope your recovery goes well and you have many more.

[One Half]

I have trained endurance athletes. You violated a lot of "principles" of sound training. I have never trained an endurance hiker for high mileage but the principles still apply.

First you need a good base. Preferably on terrain similar to what you will attempt and doing the same activity. A first time marathoner should start with a 6 month base of consistent training by running 5-6 days per week at base mileage daily and weekly totals. If I have that I can tell a person how long it should take them to train for their first marathon as long as they don't twist an ankle or some other unforeseen injury. I have trained people who and to me because they never get to marathon day because they could have prevented an injury that they ignored. I do a complete movement analysis on runners before training them for distance.

That being said, we extend their weekly training totals gradually. And adjust depending on how they recover. I'll try to explain simply here but if you look up marathon training for beginners you will get a sense of what I mean. Keep in mind though, they aren't attempting back to back marathon+ days.

Let's say the runners base is 6 days per week, roughly 5 miles per day. That's 30 miles per week. Maybe 1 or 2 days they only go 4 miles and on the weekend they actually do a 7 mile day. And they have been at this level for 2 months. That would be a dream client.

I would start by slowly increasing that long run and making sure they have an easier day the 2 days following it. I also throw in some tempo runs and hills and other things. And the long run is for distance only, not speed. Total overall mileage increase each week would be max 10% but likely closer to 5% depending on how large those percentages become real numbers. Also, every 3-5 weeks we will cycle back a little by dropping the mileage on the long run. The other runs during the week are also increasing in length based on what the client can get done since most of my clients were people with full time jobs and family also and thus unable to devote every spare minute to preparing.

So as others have pointed out, you can't expect that being able to do a 20 today means you can do a 20 tomorrow. I would suggest that you do what you can during the week and then try to use the weekends to do back to back days, increasing gradually each weekend as your body is able. Perhaps you can do a 20+15 and that's it right now. I would work on bringing up that 15. When it gets closer or even exceeds the 20, I would then add more to the first day, say a 22 and then a 18 the following day and see how that works out for you. And then progress from there.

It's important to make a plan and make sure you have recovery built into the plan. And even when you are feeling great on the plan, don't push it by going further. I have seen more runners screw up their marathons by pushing out a couple extra miles 5 weeks out from marathon day because "they felt great" and ignored their coach.

I hope that helps. It's hard to post much from my phone so I hope I didn't leave too large a gap.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stevep311]

FWIW, I just remembered that I took a screen shot of my Fitbit at the end of my first day. It's never 100% accurate but it's close. Thought ya'll would get a kick out of it....

34513

[rafe]

FWIW, I just remembered that I took a screen shot of my Fitbit at the end of my first day. It's never 100% accurate but it's close. Thought ya'll would get a kick out of it....

34513

A rough calculation says that a thru hiker takes about 35,000 steps a day. If those numbers are right you did three days' worth in one go.
But didn't you say you did, like 36 miles or something? That would seem to be a big error.

[Stevep311]

A rough calculation says that a thru hiker takes about 35,000 steps a day. If those numbers are right you did three days' worth in one go.
But didn't you say you did, like 36 miles or something? That would seem to be a big error.

If I count everything exactly it was 38.4....this is per AWOL's guidebook. So the miles on the Fitbit are definitely wrong. It doesn't have a GPS so I believe it bases mileage off of your steps and many steps that day were shorter than my average stride, especially the uphill ones.

[The Solemates]

i can hike 20 mile days. 30 mile days are not for me. big difference.

well 20 mile days arent really for me either unless Im thru hiking :)

[Pedaling Fool]

The good news is that there is a substitute. You don't necessarily need to do weeks worth of long day hikes, rather just consistently work out (shorter duration) developing the frame. It's much like putting money in the bank (the only difference is you can't do large deposits all at once on the body – unfortunately). Below are two interesting articles that talks about the similarities of running and your personal bank account.


I'm assuming you don't have access to good trails in Atlanta, so hiking every day is probably not an option, that's definitely the case with me, down here in Florida. However, that's why I focus so much on running, because running and hiking (in the mountains) is a very similar activity in a bio-mechanical sense, at least in my experience; running is much more a similar activity to hiking in the mountains than hiking on flatland.

In other words, if you live on flat, ground running is the superior activity to best keep your hiking legs than to simply walk. Even if you live in a moderately hilly area, you'd benefit more from running those hills than simply walking them and it would take a lot less training time. A good measure of improvement is how much you can do day after day without pain, but you also have to make sure you are getting rest and recuperation.


In you OP you stated that you've been running 3-6 miles every day for 3-months. That's good, but you don't want to simply run the basic same distance every day, when you do that you create a routine and the body is very good at adapting to routines, but then you go hike all day and you're out of your routine and the body wasn't really prepared – the body is lazy that way; however, that's not to say what you did isn't impressive, it was a very impressive accomplishment.


You really want to mix things up, including long runs and speed work, tempo runs, running hills....And don't forget the weights. You don't have to spend a lot of time, just consistency and keep your work mixed up.


Very interesting article: http://running.competitor.com/2014/08/training/like-an-investment-training-gains-build-over-time_41858


And another one:
http://www.runnersworld.com/masters/miles-in-the-bank




.

[rafe]

If I count everything exactly it was 38.4....this is per AWOL's guidebook. So the miles on the Fitbit are definitely wrong. It doesn't have a GPS so I believe it bases mileage off of your steps and many steps that day were shorter than my average stride, especially the uphill ones.

To put that in thru-hiker terms: 38.4 in two days is well over the typical thru-hiking speed. The fact that you did extra steps is actually good news, IMO, it means you were properly adjusting your stride for the conditions. Running is not the same as hiking steep verticals.

[Seatbelt]

[QUOTE=illabelle;2059398]I'm glad we did the one 20-mile day (Wise Shelter in GHP north to Partnership). ]

If I remember correctly this is around 30 miles!

[Trance]

No offense.... but you're going to hurt yourself and ruin your chances of doing anything in the future..... all to make some goofy record hike in your head.

People do miles like that on flat areas of the AT all the time.... but the Smokies are a lot of ups and downs and watching your footing.

[Stevep311]

No offense.... but you're going to hurt yourself and ruin your chances of doing anything in the future..... all to make some goofy record hike in your head.

People do miles like that on flat areas of the AT all the time.... but the Smokies are a lot of ups and downs and watching your footing.

My wife had a similar commentary. Thanks for your concern, no offense taken.

[LesterC]

Dude, incredible feet but don't hurt yourself. I did same stretch in
3 1/2 days in the rain last October and it took 3 weeks for my feet to heal. I understand undertaking the challenge. It's why people do Iron Man triathlons. You just gotta know if you can do it. Now that you know you can do the distance in an impressive time, do it for the scenery next time.


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[Obiwan]

More importantly...how much did your pack weigh?

[Stevep311]

More importantly...how much did your pack weigh?

At it's heaviest it was 13lbs.

[Stevep311]

Dude, incredible feet but don't hurt yourself. I did same stretch in
3 1/2 days in the rain last October and it took 3 weeks for my feet to heal. I understand undertaking the challenge. It's why people do Iron Man triathlons. You just gotta know if you can do it. Now that you know you can do the distance in an impressive time, do it for the scenery next time.


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I am hiking with my Dad in a couple of weeks, and trust me, I will be going at pace much more conducive to taking in the scenery. BTW, do you bring Hydropel or Body Glide now for your feet in the rain? It helps the skin on my feet from becoming macerated in the rain.

[Walking Thunderbird]

I agree with most of the discussion here. It's amazing what the body can do, but you need to ramp up. I did the smokies in two days as part of my sobo thru in 2009, but I was almost 2000 miles in at almost 30 miles per day st that point. The best way to get in great trail shape is obviously to hike lots of miles on trails, but that's obviously hard to do given job, etc. I run a lot of miles per week now, but even still, I'd be hesitant to try to do the smokies in two days without a bit of a runway of days/weeks of highish mileage days on the trail.

And having injured myself multiple times hiking and training for marathons, I 100% agree that the hard part is training your musculoskeletal system. That's what gets most people. If you're out of cardio shape, you slow down and get tired. Musculoskeletal issues, on the other hand, leave you injured.

[shelb]

Thought ya'll would get a kick out of it....

34513L
Love it! .............

[rocketsocks]

FWIW, I just remembered that I took a screen shot of my Fitbit at the end of my first day. It's never 100% accurate but it's close. Thought ya'll would get a kick out of it....

34513Wow, that's like burnin' off 35 snickers.

[garlic08]

I like Penny Pincher's discussion of "base" training. Someone on a forum somewhere once said your "base" should be about 30% of what you're training for. So if you really want to be able to hike back-to-back 30 milers, you should train to 10 miles daily, say 70 miles a week. (That's not easy to do.)

The numbers seem to work for me. A few years ago I trained for a 4500-mile coast-to-coast bike tour by ramping up to 200 mile weeks, up from my normal 50 to 100. I was immediately able to ride 600 mile weeks on the tour with little fatigue and no injury. Daily bicycling for me is easier than daily hiking, so I don't have the same numbers for thru-hike training. But I normally take it easy at the start of a thru-hike, for the first week or so. And I believe bicycling is decent training for hiking.

I'm currently training for a huge day, a 100-mile, 11,000' climb on the bike (Mt Evans from Golden). My training ride is a 40 mile loop through Evergreen with 3,500' of climbing--one third of the goal. That worked perfectly when I did it for the first time last year.

Those huge challenging days are fun, and hopefully you learn something from a perceived failure. I think challenges like that are a part of being human.

[Another Kevin]

I am hiking with my Dad in a couple of weeks, and trust me, I will be going at pace much more conducive to taking in the scenery. BTW, do you bring Hydropel or Body Glide now for your feet in the rain? It helps the skin on my feet from becoming macerated in the rain.

Hydropel has been out of business for a while now. I have the same problem with wet feet, and find that Gurney Goo works pretty well, better than Body Glide.

[Stevep311]

Hydropel has been out of business for a while now. I have the same problem with wet feet, and find that Gurney Goo works pretty well, better than Body Glide.

Thanks Kevin, just picked-up some Gurney Goo to try. Most of it comes out of New Zealand but I found some in the UK that was much more affordable on shipping.

[rafe]

The numbers seem to work for me. A few years ago I trained for a 4500-mile coast-to-coast bike tour by ramping up to 200 mile weeks, up from my normal 50 to 100. I was immediately able to ride 600 mile weeks on the tour with little fatigue and no injury. Daily bicycling for me is easier than daily hiking, so I don't have the same numbers for thru-hike training. But I normally take it easy at the start of a thru-hike, for the first week or so. And I believe bicycling is decent training for hiking.

You're amazing. I'd be very happy with 100-mile weeks (on my bicycle.) Maybe that should be this summer's goal. Planning on biking the GAP, in fact next month. Yesterday was my first ride of the season, an easy 19 mile loop. Fairly flat around here.

[Violent Green]

Congrats on your effort! Doing ~40mi and 13,000ft in elevation gain in one day is not a failure, but quite a success. You just need more time on your feet to better prepare for this hike.

[Stevep311]

Congrats on your effort! Doing ~40mi and 13,000ft in elevation gain in one day is not a failure, but quite a success. You just need more time on your feet to better prepare for this hike.

Thank you!

[illabelle]

[QUOTE=illabelle;2059398]I'm glad we did the one 20-mile day (Wise Shelter in GHP north to Partnership). ]

If I remember correctly this is around 30 miles!

You remember better than I do. It was Wise to Trimpi. :)

[Stevep311]

Just as an update for anyone who read my original post.....The soreness in my knees never went away. 2 week after my hike I saw a doctor who said it was patellar tendonitis. The pain is mild and comes and goes based on activity, but it still lingers 6 weeks after the hike.

What have I learned? I busted my butt getting my body into shape for this hike. Muscularly and cardio wise I was good to go. However my tendons were not strengthened enough and I've since learned that it takes much longer than 3 months to develop them to the strength needed to get thru a 38 mile day in the Smokies.

Some who choose to be critical, but save your breath. I did it and I learned and I am my own toughest critic. So, just wanted to post an update and lastly I will add that I am currently rehabbing my knees and can't wait to get out again!!!

Thank you to all who posted with advice and support!

[SteelCut]

Thanks for the update. Good luck on your continued recovery.

[Malto]

Just as an update for anyone who read my original post.....The soreness in my knees never went away. 2 week after my hike I saw a doctor who said it was patellar tendonitis. The pain is mild and comes and goes based on activity, but it still lingers 6 weeks after the hike.

What have I learned? I busted my butt getting my body into shape for this hike. Muscularly and cardio wise I was good to go. However my tendons were not strengthened enough and I've since learned that it takes much longer than 3 months to develop them to the strength needed to get thru a 38 mile day in the Smokies.

Some who choose to be critical, but save your breath. I did it and I learned and I am my own toughest critic. So, just wanted to post an update and lastly I will add that I am currently rehabbing my knees and can't wait to get out again!!!

Thank you to all who posted with advice and support!


YOu learned something very important so I would call the trip a huge success. I believe one of the hardest lessons to learn, especially for guys, is listening to your body and not overdoing it or pushing too hard out of recovery. Good luck with your recovery.

[Stevep311]

YOu learned something very important so I would call the trip a huge success. I believe one of the hardest lessons to learn, especially for guys, is listening to your body and not overdoing it or pushing too hard out of recovery. Good luck with your recovery.

Very true unfortunately. The "superman" complex is slowing dying with age and experience.

[Pedaling Fool]

Just as an update for anyone who read my original post.....The soreness in my knees never went away. 2 week after my hike I saw a doctor who said it was patellar tendonitis. The pain is mild and comes and goes based on activity, but it still lingers 6 weeks after the hike.

What have I learned? I busted my butt getting my body into shape for this hike. Muscularly and cardio wise I was good to go. However my tendons were not strengthened enough and I've since learned that it takes much longer than 3 months to develop them to the strength needed to get thru a 38 mile day in the Smokies.

Some who choose to be critical, but save your breath. I did it and I learned and I am my own toughest critic. So, just wanted to post an update and lastly I will add that I am currently rehabbing my knees and can't wait to get out again!!!

Thank you to all who posted with advice and support!That's the thing about the musculoskeletal system, there's a lot more to it than just muscles and you can't isolate any of them. I basically have permanent patellar tendonitis, which is a result of a childhood injury (slid down a pole and a valve stem stabbed my in the knee, just under the knee cap). You can actually see the tendon popping out, especially when I go running. I doesn't matter what I do, run, cycle, hike, lift weights, if I over do it, it hurts really bad. I've learned ways to make it as healthy as possible thru weightlifting.

Stay active and keep working at it, but don't cause pain, you gotta be very patient with rehabilitation of connective tissues.


Very true unfortunately. The "superman" complex is slowing dying with age and experience.
I'm 51 and I still haven't lost that superman complex, granted I'm able to control it much better and I do know my limits, but that doesn't stop me from pushing it really hard sometimes. There are a few stretches of road where I do 0-30+ mph sprints on my bike nearly every day. I could probably go without doing them every day, but I can't stop...:(

[Mr. Bumpy]

I'm 51 and I still haven't lost that superman complex, granted I'm able to control it much better and I do know my limits, but that doesn't stop me from pushing it really hard sometimes. There are a few stretches of road where I do 0-30+ mph sprints on my bike nearly every day. I could probably go without doing them every day, but I can't stop...:(

Get yourself down to the velodrome in FLL and sprint to your heart's content!

[jersey joe]

Hey Steve,
I have tried to do something similar, hike the 72 AT miles in NJ in 48 hours.
I too failed, making it only 43 miles.

My second attempt was to do the 72 in 24 hours without camping/carrying a pack.
Also a failure where I stopped at the same point.

My third attempt will be 72 in 24 again as I believe that it is much more achievable "off the couch" then carrying gear for 48.

The thing about this failure though is I have zero regrets.

Here is my post about it, misery loves company?
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/63588-NJ-thru-hike-in-a-weekend?highlight=

[Malto]

Hey Steve,
I have tried to do something similar, hike the 72 AT miles in NJ in 48 hours.
I too failed, making it only 43 miles.

My second attempt was to do the 72 in 24 hours without camping/carrying a pack.
Also a failure where I stopped at the same point.

My third attempt will be 72 in 24 again as I believe that it is much more achievable "off the couch" then carrying gear for 48.

The thing about this failure though is I have zero regrets.

Here is my post about it, misery loves company?
http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/63588-NJ-thru-hike-in-a-weekend?highlight=

your PM mailbox is full.

[aaronthebugbuffet]

Are you going to try again?
You definitely did the harder part first. I've hike from Newfound to Standing Bear then back to Newfound the next day a couple of times. I've wanted to the Davenport to Fontana in two days but never wanted to bother with the shuttle.

[Stevep311]

Are you going to try again?
You definitely did the harder part first. I've hike from Newfound to Standing Bear then back to Newfound the next day a couple of times. I've wanted to the Davenport to Fontana in two days but never wanted to bother with the shuttle.

Not sure that I would do the Fontana to Newfound section again. It had a couple of highlights, but from what I understand the Newfound to Davenport section is more picturesque throughout. I probably would take a day and a half to do it instead of trying to knock it out all in 1 day. This was my first speed hiking attempt and one of the things I learned is that I'd rather not hike in the dark. This would mean that I'd lose about 3 hours and roughly 7-8 miles.

[Connie]

The tendonitis makes me thing you have been doing body-building, which is not the same as a strength workout or core strength workout.

In the U. S. Army, our physical trainer had us do core-strength and strengthening workouts.

For mountaineering, we only did shallow knee bends, run walk the track, then cross-country, beginning with quarter track walk, quarter track run, working up to 8-10 miles minimum "cross-country" (not on the track, but over local terrain, then hiking coastal mountains, then 18 mile minimum "approach" full pack to base camp.

For mountaineering, I also recall a simple balance "workout" walking on street curbs. First, no pack, then backpack, then under load, then full pack: the backpack had the not interfere.

I am old, now, I don't workout at all and I am still strong: core strength and strengthening workouts made that much difference.

Body-building is about tearing and scarring muscle bundles (no pain no gain, muscle "burn") to bulk up, no matter what anyone says, and in the military service those body building muscle-boys cannot unload or load a truck: what one or two men that have worked hard in their lives can do, an entire squad "works hard" to do.

[jersey joe]

your PM mailbox is full.
Thanks Malto, i cleaned out my inbox.

[jersey joe]

Are you going to try again?
You definitely did the harder part first. I've hike from Newfound to Standing Bear then back to Newfound the next day a couple of times. I've wanted to the Davenport to Fontana in two days but never wanted to bother with the shuttle.
Yeah, I'll try again. Next time north to south.

[jbbweeks]

As I enter my sixth decade on this planet, I'm trying to extend my decades of enjoying the AT. At home I try to walk 3-5 miles 2 or 3 times a week. But my walks on flat level surfaces exercise just a few of the muscles I use on the trail. On one of my walks I tried to devise the perfect exercise routine for some one with a goal of hiking multiple 35+ mile days on the trail. This is certainly not something I seek to accomplish, but for those rare individuals with the "right stuff" I would suggest the following workout:
First, strap a 5 lb weight on both sides of your training pack so they dangle free and fasten 1 at the top in the same manner. Find a pair of high heel shoes like your wife would wear - stilettos will work but you may find it difficult to obtain a pair that fit. Once you have your equipment together locate some stadium steps you can use & park your car 1 mile from them and use this routine - 1st - sprint the 1 mile distance from car to location of steps wearing the high heels 2nd - run up the steps in heels on your all fours taking two at a time. Then run down the steps in the same manner using feet & hands two at a time. Do this as many times as you can then sprint back to your car. The steps will simulate the trail conditions and the sprints will prepare you for a possible bear encounter. People that see you using this workout routine will no doubt ask "Why are you doing this?" They will also ask "Are you crazy?" And of course they will say "You going to hurt your self doing that!" But if you think about it, they are already saying all of those things about your time on the AT, so what the heck? If you are consistent with this workout for 4 to 6 months, I feel sure your next attempt of long distance hiking will be successful! I got my trail name "Nightcrawler" because I was consistent! I always crawled into camp hours after everyone else usually after dark!


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[illabelle]

Hilarious!


As I enter my sixth decade on this planet, I'm trying to extend my decades of enjoying the AT. At home I try to walk 3-5 miles 2 or 3 times a week. But my walks on flat level surfaces exercise just a few of the muscles I use on the trail. On one of my walks I tried to devise the perfect exercise routine for some one with a goal of hiking multiple 35+ mile days on the trail. This is certainly not something I seek to accomplish, but for those rare individuals with the "right stuff" I would suggest the following workout:
First, strap a 5 lb weight on both sides of your training pack so they dangle free and fasten 1 at the top in the same manner. Find a pair of high heel shoes like your wife would wear - stilettos will work but you may find it difficult to obtain a pair that fit. Once you have your equipment together locate some stadium steps you can use & park your car 1 mile from them and use this routine - 1st - sprint the 1 mile distance from car to location of steps wearing the high heels 2nd - run up the steps in heels on your all fours taking two at a time. Then run down the steps in the same manner using feet & hands two at a time. Do this as many times as you can then sprint back to your car. The steps will simulate the trail conditions and the sprints will prepare you for a possible bear encounter. People that see you using this workout routine will no doubt ask "Why are you doing this?" They will also ask "Are you crazy?" And of course they will say "You going to hurt your self doing that!" But if you think about it, they are already saying all of those things about your time on the AT, so what the heck? If you are consistent with this workout for 4 to 6 months, I feel sure your next attempt of long distance hiking will be successful! I got my trail name "Nightcrawler" because I was consistent! I always crawled into camp hours after everyone else usually after dark!


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