Human Trail Pigs

[Tipi Walter]

This thread is in Dishonor of all the trail pigs who have left our trails and forests trashed and blighted. This includes both dayhikers and backpackers. Other photos are welcomed.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Backpacking-TN/i-N946JjG/0/M/TRIP%20125%20089-M.jpg
I found this wonderful Fir tree girdled on the BMT by a guy named LEVI.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Coy-Williams-and-the-25th/i-4tqrZ6c/0/M/TRIP%20114%20095-M.jpg
Redneck detritus on the Horse Cove trail in NC.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Backpacking-Bryan-DeLay/i-XbpfQrm/0/M/TRIP%20148%20173-M.jpg
A discarded redneck pig tarp on Slickrock Creek.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-cRCd5Lw/0/M/TRIP%20167%20040-M.jpg
Furniture and crap left on the Snowbird Creek trail.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-hVvp6Sk/0/M/TRIP%20167%20317-M.jpg
Lawn chairs and tarp crap left on a trail in NC.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-Zcsg6jX/0/M/TRIP%20152%20172-M.jpg
In honor of Earth Day 2016 and left by some clueless woman in the Bald River wilderness of TN.

There are a group of diehard Linville Gorge hikers and backpackers who call these kind of people "Goats"---tourists---who drive out and park and leave their messes in the gorge, so I have to include this video I found today about such behavior---


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B96O2TRVcak&index=8&list=PLE98F83BB4D4A649 2

[TJ aka Teej]

I've been hauling out other people's trash since seeing my dad pick up other folk's cigarette butts white hunting when I was about 9.
My kids all carry trash bags when they hike.
We police the Birches on our way out of Baxter every visit, and again at the end of each season.
We've cleaned up hundreds of pounds of thru-hiker trash from that site alone. Thanks, "angels'!
But it's the vandalism that really bugs me, like the Superman logo hacked into the Katahdin summit sign, and the swastikas made from the x on Baxter Park signs.

[Dogwood]

I would love absolutely love meeting a guy named Levi with a Tipi scar tattooed on his arm asking the story how he got the tat. At the end I'd say serves you right.

Those plastic tampon applicators, usually pink though, litter some beaches, usually accompanied by all sorts of pieces of wrappers, elastic hair bungees, cigarette butts, especially the nasty filters, single handed dental floss picks, and aluminum can pull tabs. Yeah, it's the guys and gals that can be pigs. Eeek. Eh. Ahh. Ughh.

I expect my pink and blue, his and hers, Anniversary Edition folding let's get drunk and enjoy the great outdoors chairs and the stolen milk crate luggage slash let's roll up a spliffy on it beer can table to still be there when I return in six months. :D

[Dogwood]

What, no leftover burnt Spaghetti O's in the fire ring? Where's the left behind clothes line?

[Dogwood]

Warning adult language and situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfyT4H_NPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3nsgTQNiI

It's friday.

[Deadeye]

Yeah, the woods are full of pigs. So is the rest of the world. I was at Costco, and a little kid in the shopping cart unwrapped her candy and tossed the wrapper on the floor. No comments from Mom or Dad, and when I commented, Mom told me to eff off. Teach your children well.

The civilized will likely pick up after the uncivilized for generations to come. I bring a trash bag and pick up what I dare, but sometimes the best I can do is bury the $#!% that's left behind.

[Traffic Jam]

Tipi, if you find a tent pole on Nichols Cove trail in Slickrock creek wilderness...I'm sorry!!! I lost it last weekend, maybe when climbing over some blowdown that was lying over the creek. I swear I turned around to look for it but couldn't find it.

[rocketsocks]

This thread is in Dishonor of all the trail pigs who have left our trails and forests trashed and blighted. This includes both dayhikers and backpackers. Other photos are welcomed.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Backpacking-TN/i-N946JjG/0/M/TRIP%20125%20089-M.jpg
I found this wonderful Fir tree girdled on the BMT by a guy named LEVI.

...in pig Latin him called Evil.

[TNhiker]

Tipi, if you find a tent pole on Nichols Cove trail in Slickrock creek wilderness...I'm sorry!!! I lost it last weekend,




i think losing something and deliberately leaving trash behind, is a big difference....

after all, you didnt mean to leave your mark while the people in these photos did...........

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, if you find a tent pole on Nichols Cove trail in Slickrock creek wilderness...I'm sorry!!! I lost it last weekend, maybe when climbing over some blowdown that was lying over the creek. I swear I turned around to look for it but couldn't find it.

I do not consider lost items as pig trash, plus anything lost in the Slickrock I regard as ripped off by Miss Nature including swinging appendages and other minor organs. She takes what she wants, we only have to gleefully hike thru her briar walls, blowdowns, collapsed rhodo hells and sawbriar thickets.

It oddly makes me feel good to see trails eat people's gear while they run out screaming or mumbling in a daze. Not saying Traffic Jam got jammed by Momma nature in any way, he just had a normal encounter with the Nichols Cove trail.

One question though: How did you manage to lose one tent pole?? And/or not the tent?

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2016-Trips-171/21-Days-in-January/i-z6CTmX8/0/M/TRIP%20171%20185-M.jpg
I found these glove on the BMT above Hangover Mt on a very cold day of hiking. Discarded? Ripped off my Miss Nature with the hands still inside?? I left them as they were.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Citico-Wilderness-Trailwork/i-XPxks3V/0/M/TRIP%20149%20126-M.jpg
Found this on the upper Slickrock Nutbuster trail (hardest in the southeast?) and pulled off by Miss Nature's daughter---Hysteria.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Coy-Williams-and-the-25th/i-hcrBZ2G/0/M/TRIP%20114%20206-M.jpg
Another trip on the Nutbuster trail---a broken tent pole and one sock (no foot inside). Also a good example as what eventually happens to all cork-handled hiking poles.

[nsherry61]

But, what if someone that comes after you could maybe use that used tarp or those camp chairs? :mad:
And, if I go back again, it saves me having to carry all that stuff all that way again.

[Traffic Jam]

I do not consider lost items as pig trash, plus anything lost in the Slickrock I regard as ripped off by Miss Nature including swinging appendages and other minor organs. She takes what she wants, we only have to gleefully hike thru her briar walls, blowdowns, collapsed rhodo hells and sawbriar thickets.

It oddly makes me feel good to see trails eat people's gear while they run out screaming or mumbling in a daze. Not saying Traffic Jam got jammed by Momma nature in any way, he just had a normal encounter with the Nichols Cove trail.

One question though: How did you manage to lose one tent pole?? And/or not

I have two aluminum tent poles that fold to 11". They stay in the side pocket of my pack and together with a hair band. I had to use the hair band (I'm a she not a he) and maybe snagged the poles when I was climbing over blowdowns and grabbing roots to pull me up the creek bank. I looked and never found the pole. But it could have happened anywhere on that trail as it was a bit difficult to follow and I had to backtrack several times. I followed the trail by process of elimination...if I couldn't go any further because of "blowdowns, collapsed rhodo hells and sawbriar thickets" (perfect description), I went a different way until I found something that looked like a trail. If I screamed, it's from being pissed that I have to buy a new pole. :)

[Traffic Jam]

excuse me..."tied together with a hair band".

[Sarcasm the elf]

I live on CT which had a full fireban on the A.T., yet I still come across and dismantle haphazard fire rings onfe or twice a year. Usually they are made in the middle of an ideal tent spot.

34584

[CoolBobby]

I have thought a lot about an AT shaming website for anyone to post pics on. Being a LEO I have to admit that I do appreciate a bit of mediated vigilantism. Nothing wrong with calling a dirtbag a dirtbag.

[TNhiker]

I had to use the hair band (I'm a she not a he)



hey.....some of us "he s" have to use a hair band..... :P

in fact, i think tipi still has a ponytail of sorts.......

[Tipi Walter]

"Of sorts . . ." Most of my manly high testosterone head-hair growth has disappeared into the swirling archive bin of time. Partly by using rubber bands instead of hair ties.

[Tipi Walter]

Warning adult language and situations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQfyT4H_NPw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp3nsgTQNiI

It's friday.

Excellent vids. Bill Burr fits right into the conversation.


But, what if someone that comes after you could maybe use that used tarp or those camp chairs? :mad:
And, if I go back again, it saves me having to carry all that stuff all that way again.

I didn't put this in the humor section but that's pretty funny.

[Grits]

Another Gorge Rat Production (Fighting Litter ... the Gorge Rat way! ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lmu24B1X6k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lmu24B1X6k

[Greenlight]

Yeah, the woods are full of pigs. So is the rest of the world. I was at Costco, and a little kid in the shopping cart unwrapped her candy and tossed the wrapper on the floor. No comments from Mom or Dad, and when I commented, Mom told me to eff off. Teach your children well.


Fine upstanding parents. Doesn't it make you want to go all "Impractical Jokers" on them?

[Offshore]

Those plastic tampon applicators, usually pink though, litter some beaches... :D

In this area, they are know colloquially as "beach whistles". They wind up on the beaches when they get flushed down the toilet and make their way through waste water treatment systems - especially the older systems that don't catch all the floatables or those that are combined with storm water systems that need to be bypassed during high rain events.

[saltysack]

In this area, they are know colloquially as "beach whistles". They wind up on the beaches when they get flushed down the toilet and make their way through waste water treatment systems - especially the older systems that don't catch all the floatables or those that are combined with storm water systems that need to be bypassed during high rain events.

Not sure if I like that name!!! We blow the fish whistle when things are slow offshore trolling.....aka Colorado cigarette....[emoji51][emoji377]

[DuneElliot]

Horrible. Picked up some broken pieces of a snow machine on a trail 2 weeks ago, plus a broken glass bottle and the handle of a 5 gallon bucket. Our trails are more remote and don't really see partying so it is a lot rarer to see this stuff than back east. Beer cans seem to be the worst culprit but at least they are usually only in the front-country fire pits, which is ironic since people have their vehicles in those places and can easily pack out their trash :mad:

[JohnHuth]

Cleaning up after others is a good habit. I wonder about best way to deal with someone caught in the act. People get defensive or downright angry when even a mild caution is offered.

Although not a trail story - something along similar lines. A beach I go to a lot suffers from scouring from wave action. The town works quite hard to preserve native species on the dunes and preserve as natural a state as it can get. Rocks, even small ones, can break up wave energy and are a front-line against erosion. Every summer, I see kids get into contests about who can throw the biggest rocks the farthest into the ocean. Now, one rock is not a big deal, but a summer full of kids tossing rocks all day long will start to deprive the beach of a natural barrier and it erodes faster.

One neighbor said that he told off a kid about the erosion problem, and the kid actually stopped throwing rocks. I was walking another time with my wife and we saw a mom with her son, and she was encouraging the son to throw rocks into the ocean. I muttered something under my breath to my wife and she went back and told the woman about the erosion problem. The woman got incredibly indignant and said that we had a lot of nerve interfering with her "teaching my son about nature." That didn't go over well.

I'm not sure how to approach situations where you catch someone in the act - suggestions welcome.

[Offshore]

Cleaning up after others is a good habit. I wonder about best way to deal with someone caught in the act. People get defensive or downright angry when even a mild caution is offered.

Although not a trail story - something along similar lines. A beach I go to a lot suffers from scouring from wave action. The town works quite hard to preserve native species on the dunes and preserve as natural a state as it can get. Rocks, even small ones, can break up wave energy and are a front-line against erosion. Every summer, I see kids get into contests about who can throw the biggest rocks the farthest into the ocean. Now, one rock is not a big deal, but a summer full of kids tossing rocks all day long will start to deprive the beach of a natural barrier and it erodes faster.

One neighbor said that he told off a kid about the erosion problem, and the kid actually stopped throwing rocks. I was walking another time with my wife and we saw a mom with her son, and she was encouraging the son to throw rocks into the ocean. I muttered something under my breath to my wife and she went back and told the woman about the erosion problem. The woman got incredibly indignant and said that we had a lot of nerve interfering with her "teaching my son about nature." That didn't go over well.

I'm not sure how to approach situations where you catch someone in the act - suggestions welcome.

I don't engage. Tossing rocks into the ocean is one thing, but really, what is there to explain to someone dumping trash, spray painting rocks, or carving initials into trees or shelters? There's no plausible good reason, so no "misunderstanding" to explain - the person is just an a-hole and probably not going to respond well or be inspired to modify their behavior. Its probably best (and safest) just to report them and consider doing something to help to mitigate the damage afterwards by pickup up trash or volunteering on a trail crew.

In similar misbehavior management, one particular state park near me had a recurrent problem of dog owners ignoring the leash law and the clean up after your dog rule, even after the park provided dog waste bags. This spring, they posted a large sign at the trail head asking other hikers not to engage directly with but to photograph owners (and their dogs) in violation of these regulations (including license plate if in the parking lot) and provide either a ranger or the park office personnel with the photograph. End result was no more trail side bags of dog waste and no more dogs running loose on any of my visits since the sign was posted. You can't try to reason with unreasonable behavior. In this case, the dogs rules were prominently posted for years and the dog owners knew they were breaking the leash law and violating the dog waste regulation. But it seemed to take the park managers engaging other trail users in reporting the problematic owners, greatly increasing their risk of violators getting caught.

[Another Kevin]

On a trip last summer I picked up a sizable bag of trash at a shelter. The nearest place down trail that I could get rid of it was a state campground about two and a half miles away.

The guy who ran the recycling center at the campground scolded me because the labels were off the cans and bottles so they couldn't be properly sorted by recycling class. "It's not my trash, it's stuff that some pig left in the lean-to at Stephens Pond" cut no ice. He continued to threaten with calling a ranger to write me a ticket for improper trash disposal. I offered to stick around while he made the call, and his reply was, "get out of here!" I was glad to comply.

I've also trashed out an (unlawful) campsite while some high-school boys were hanging out at it. Their reaction was "haw, haw, haw, look at the garbage man!" and throwing their empties at me. I simply said, "if you're too lazy to pack them out, it would be easier if you could just hand them to me rather than making me chase after them," bagged them with the other rubbish, and hiked on. Maybe they thought about it afterward.

Some days, no good deed goes unpunished.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

On a trip last summer I picked up a sizable bag of trash at a shelter. The nearest place down trail that I could get rid of it was a state campground about two and a half miles away.

The guy who ran the recycling center at the campground scolded me because the labels were off the cans and bottles so they couldn't be properly sorted by recycling class. "It's not my trash, it's stuff that some pig left in the lean-to at Stephens Pond" cut no ice. He continued to threaten with calling a ranger to write me a ticket for improper trash disposal. I offered to stick around while he made the call, and his reply was, "get out of here!" I was glad to comply.

I've also trashed out an (unlawful) campsite while some high-school boys were hanging out at it. Their reaction was "haw, haw, haw, look at the garbage man!" and throwing their empties at me. I simply said, "if you're too lazy to pack them out, it would be easier if you could just hand them to me rather than making me chase after them," bagged them with the other rubbish, and hiked on. Maybe they thought about it afterward.

Some days, no good deed goes unpunished.

I would have "relocated" a rock or two right square in their direction. It's one thing to be a pig and a jerk, another thing to attempt to hit me with your trash.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

I don't engage. Tossing rocks into the ocean is one thing, but really, what is there to explain to someone dumping trash, spray painting rocks, or carving initials into trees or shelters? There's no plausible good reason, so no "misunderstanding" to explain - the person is just an a-hole and probably not going to respond well or be inspired to modify their behavior. Its probably best (and safest) just to report them and consider doing something to help to mitigate the damage afterwards by pickup up trash or volunteering on a trail crew.

In similar misbehavior management, one particular state park near me had a recurrent problem of dog owners ignoring the leash law and the clean up after your dog rule, even after the park provided dog waste bags. This spring, they posted a large sign at the trail head asking other hikers not to engage directly with but to photograph owners (and their dogs) in violation of these regulations (including license plate if in the parking lot) and provide either a ranger or the park office personnel with the photograph. End result was no more trail side bags of dog waste and no more dogs running loose on any of my visits since the sign was posted. You can't try to reason with unreasonable behavior. In this case, the dogs rules were prominently posted for years and the dog owners knew they were breaking the leash law and violating the dog waste regulation. But it seemed to take the park managers engaging other trail users in reporting the problematic owners, greatly increasing their risk of violators getting caught.

I like this idea.

[sketcher709]

In similar misbehavior management, one particular state park near me had a recurrent problem of dog owners ignoring the leash law and the clean up after your dog rule, even after the park provided dog waste bags. This spring, they posted a large sign at the trail head asking other hikers not to engage directly with but to photograph owners (and their dogs) in violation of these regulations (including license plate if in the parking lot) and provide either a ranger or the park office personnel with the photograph. End result was no more trail side bags of dog waste and no more dogs running loose on any of my visits since the sign was posted. You can't try to reason with unreasonable behavior. In this case, the dogs rules were prominently posted for years and the dog owners knew they were breaking the leash law and violating the dog waste regulation. But it seemed to take the park managers engaging other trail users in reporting the problematic owners, greatly increasing their risk of violators getting caught.


I hate the anti-dog sentiment although I also HATE even more that I hike and see piles of dog poop everywhere on my local mountain trail. I hike with my dogs and let them off leash and my dogs run through the woods and when they do have to go it is generally far off the trail. Should they rarely go on the edge of the trail or within "smelling" distance, I remove it to far enough in the woods where nature can take care of it and no one has to smell or step in it. I really don't see why I need to carry plastic bags to pick up poop to add to my landfill when my dogs can go take a crap out in the woods just like all the other wild animals out there do.

However, the anti-dog nazi's give the hairy eyeball when they see my dogs off-leash on the unpopulated, lightly hiked dirt roads and trails despite the fact that the dogs come when called and I leash them when anyone is approaching. Often these are people with their kids who clutch their kids to their side when they see a dog...probably these kids get away from thier Nntendo games once a year for their forced nature activity where they can learn to be scared of friendly dogs because they are not tied up.

If I walk my dogs on a leash then they are forced to pee and poop on the trail and then I am forced to haul crap out. Stupid if you ask me. If I can dig a cat hole and bury mine then I'm not sure why everyone else can't do the same with their dogs.

My dogs are fit and active. When I hike 5 miles, they have probably run 15. Walking them on a leash would barely take the edge off them.

I wish for 2 things.

1) dog people would be more responsible to not make people like myself look bad by leaving dog crap on the trails.
2) children clutching anti-dog nazi's would hike the more populated trails where dogs must be leashed and let those of us who like to hike with our dogs off leash have a little non-judgy peace and quiet.

[smoovoperator]

This problem is everywhere. I just don't understand it. We have found a Wal-Mart special while tent once.it had a twelve pack of beer inside it. Nice and warm. The kicker was, it has a written on it, pay it forward. Yeah, thanks people.

[martinb]

Timely thread as I have been formulating a plan for removing crap from some areas near the FL trail in Ocala NF. One trailhead to hidden pond is a mini trash heap with dozens of discarded plastic water jugs and what-not. I was pretty peeved that people, apparently, couldn't care less about the junk they leave behind. I've also found enough trash out along the FL trail to make me wonder why some people even bother going out into the wilderness. I guess it's a conquest thing? I don't know. It certainly can't be a love of the wilderness based on the junk left behind.

[Another Kevin]

I would have "relocated" a rock or two right square in their direction. It's one thing to be a pig and a jerk, another thing to attempt to hit me with your trash.
I don't escalate, particularly with punks less than a third my age and drunk in the bargain. I surely couldn't take all four of them.

[johnnybgood]

I don't escalate, particularly with punks less than a third my age and drunk in the bargain. I surely couldn't take all four of them.

Yep ! Not worth it. Only hope they grow up and become responsible people one day-- the sooner the better.

[Dogwood]

In this area, they are know colloquially as "beach whistles". They wind up on the beaches when they get flushed down the toilet and make their way through waste water treatment systems - especially the older systems that don't catch all the floatables or those that are combined with storm water systems that need to be bypassed during high rain events.

Curious where in NJ you're from? I didn't want to say NJ beaches but that is where I've seen your "beach whistles" in the most abundance.

I never thought that's how they came about. I thought it was woman on beaches changing their tampons. Your explanation makes more sense. The wide ranging appearances of the pink "beach whistle" mystery has been solved here on WB. Whew. Now I know. :D

[peakbagger]

It would be rare for a modern wastewater treatment plant to pass large floating solids. The facilities are equipped with devices called "muffin monsters" that grind up the incoming solids at the treatment plant and frequently at pumping stations. The far more likely culprit is combined stormwater/wastewater discharge systems. Normally these systems process all the liquid but when there is heavy rain, the treatment piping or treatment plant is overwhelmed and the system bypasses a portion of the incoming flow to the discharge (river or ocean) with no treatment at all. This is far more likely in older large cities.

One of the more insidious waste products in the backcountry is pre dampened toilet paper. The manufacturers claim is this product dissolves in the waste system but many municipal waste systems are getting clogged with these products along with private septic systems. Compared to standard toilet paper in a backcountry situation, this product persists for far longer before breaking down and I expect in dry areas it may be years.

A very closely related product used by some hikers are pre-moistened towels to do a dry cleanup after a day of hiking. They generally are made with synthetic fibers and can take years to break down. Some idiots are burying these rather than packing them out.

[gsingjane]

PB, thank you for that useful info about the towels. I have been using those (packing them out) on the trail but will switch over to something more environmentally friendly this summer. A few years ago on here somebody had a recipe for "homemade" towelettes and I will look for it.

Jane

[Traveler]

2) children clutching anti-dog nazi's would hike the more populated trails where dogs must be leashed and let those of us who like to hike with our dogs off leash have a little non-judgy peace and quiet.

If dogs are well trained, people generally don't have an issue. Given your description of the other guy being a "nazi" when your dogs run loose and cause an issue, I suspect some training would benefit your animals behavior and the perspective of those they encounter. Or perhaps there is acreage off trail you can take the dogs to run about and not interrupt others in the process.

[Sarcasm the elf]

If dogs are well trained, people generally don't have an issue. Given your description of the other guy being a "nazi" when your dogs run loose and cause an issue, I suspect some training would benefit your animals behavior and the perspective of those they encounter. Or perhaps there is acreage off trail you can take the dogs to run about and not interrupt others in the process.

This is not necessarily the case. I have run into a number pf people on trail seemed to be offended by my dog's very existence, I have even run into a few hikers that were angered by the fact that they had to pass by my leashed dog who was in a sit command off trail after we had yielded the way to them as they approached, Fortunately these encounters have been quite rare.

[Offshore]

I hate the anti-dog sentiment although I also HATE even more that I hike and see piles of dog poop everywhere on my local mountain trail. I hike with my dogs and let them off leash and my dogs run through the woods and when they do have to go it is generally far off the trail. Should they rarely go on the edge of the trail or within "smelling" distance, I remove it to far enough in the woods where nature can take care of it and no one has to smell or step in it. I really don't see why I need to carry plastic bags to pick up poop to add to my landfill when my dogs can go take a crap out in the woods just like all the other wild animals out there do.

However, the anti-dog nazi's give the hairy eyeball when they see my dogs off-leash on the unpopulated, lightly hiked dirt roads and trails despite the fact that the dogs come when called and I leash them when anyone is approaching. Often these are people with their kids who clutch their kids to their side when they see a dog...probably these kids get away from thier Nntendo games once a year for their forced nature activity where they can learn to be scared of friendly dogs because they are not tied up.

If I walk my dogs on a leash then they are forced to pee and poop on the trail and then I am forced to haul crap out. Stupid if you ask me. If I can dig a cat hole and bury mine then I'm not sure why everyone else can't do the same with their dogs.

My dogs are fit and active. When I hike 5 miles, they have probably run 15. Walking them on a leash would barely take the edge off them.

I wish for 2 things.

1) dog people would be more responsible to not make people like myself look bad by leaving dog crap on the trails.
2) children clutching anti-dog nazi's would hike the more populated trails where dogs must be leashed and let those of us who like to hike with our dogs off leash have a little non-judgy peace and quiet.

Cry me a river...

1) The anti-dog sentiment is really anti-responsible dog owner sentiment, and you bring it on yourselves.
2) You willingly bring your dog to a trail knowing full well that there are requirements for keeping it on a leash, and then you proceed to whine and complain about the leash requirement, thinking that somehow you are above it all - really? (see item 1 above)
3) The dog waste issue is owners either leaving it on the trail or even worse, bagging it and leaving the bags on the trail. Catholes or off trail are certainly a better option.
4) Your dog may be friendly, but when it comes bounding at a hiker around a bend far ahead of you, how is the hiker to know? I've also seen "friendly" dogs react in an unfriendly manner to a head nets and trekking poles.

As far as your wishes, wish number one makes a lot of sense, so maybe the dog owner community needs to self-police. As far as number 2 - entitled much? Why should people with kids or a fear of dogs be relegated to the busiest trails just so that the less used trails can be reserved for dog owners who feel that somehow no rules apply to them? You act like someone using a leash-required trail and objecting to strange unleashed dogs running at them or jumping on them is the same as someone walking into a dog park and insisting on leashes.

[Offshore]

Curious where in NJ you're from? I didn't want to say NJ beaches but that is where I've seen your "beach whistles" in the most abundance.

I never thought that's how they came about. I thought it was woman on beaches changing their tampons. Your explanation makes more sense. The wide ranging appearances of the pink "beach whistle" mystery has been solved here on WB. Whew. Now I know. :D

The combined sewer outflows are the issue, and mostly from NYC. Its gotten a lot better over the last several years as NYC has put new state of the art waste water treatment plants on line. The issue is that the plastics tend to hang around and unless removed, will just come in and out on the tides until stranded on the beach. Eventually UV from sunlight will break them down.

[Starchild]

If I walk my dogs on a leash then they are forced to pee and poop on the trail and then I am forced to haul crap out. Stupid if you ask me. If I can dig a cat hole and bury mine then I'm not sure why everyone else can't do the same with their dogs.

LNT rules for cathholes are a compromise of sorts, to get compliance they need to make it reasonable with the least amount of impact. Catholes does allow more rapid breakdown and takes care of it being visible but many hard core LNT'er's would rather all waste be packed out. But even catholes are introducing non-native pathogens to a natural environment, from the human world (where dogs live) to the natural. Leaving poop on the surface enhances the probability of those pathogens getting into the local native animal population.

[JohnHuth]

The Maine Island Trail is a set of islands where permission is given to camp if you're a member of the Association (MITA). The LNT rules are to pack out all human solid waste, and pee in the intertidal zone. Having seen some alpine hiking areas thrashed, it would make sense for these ares to also have a pack-out policy.

[Miel]

Levi's defacement of that tree makes me furious, Tipi. It could (and I hope not) kill the tree. Do you know if someone will be going out there to apply tar or tape up the tree? It could be saved, but now it's exposed to potential infection and bugs.

Is what he did considered a state or federal crime? I wouldn't want to see him go to jail for life for this, but some community service; education; hefty fine would be in order. (If TPTB can find him, that is.) He may be young, or foolish (youth not necessarily being foolish). A case in east Texas recently of young men out fishing, killed a dolphin because they thought it was a "large fish." (Cetaceans are not fish.) In the US cetaceans are federally-protected. Brought to justice, they were just clueless about their actions (they wounded another dolphin). In New Jersey and Alabama, a couple of fishermen intentionally killed dolphins recently because they felt the dolphins were competing with them for fish. (That's what dolphins do, they eat fish, they don't have kitchens and supermarkets.) How dolphins relate to your post is this: are trees also protected in the event one's actions on the trail (or any state or national trail) could lead to the tree dying?

So mad. Would like to help effect change by policy change (if needed). I don't want to harm this Levi person, but would like to see him educated on the matter (again, if TBTB could ever find him; he could be in Vancouver now for all we know).

The AT and other trails are part of our patrimony, and my stridency in these forums is because of my love for that part of our patrimony. So grateful that these trails are out there.

So grateful that The Watcher is out there. Keep safe, tho.

[Tipi Walter]

This problem is everywhere. I just don't understand it. We have found a Wal-Mart special while tent once.it had a twelve pack of beer inside it. Nice and warm. The kicker was, it has a written on it, pay it forward. Yeah, thanks people.

I went into Slickrock wilderness one month and found this tent permanently set up. I went back the next month and found it still set up so I regarded it as trash and took it down and rolled it up and left it at a popular trailhead for dayhikers to kindly hump out.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Tipi-Walter-Upper-Slickrock/i-zzBS9jP/0/L/TRIP%20145%20356-L.jpg

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-wzkZjJm/0/L/TRIP%20170%20211-L.jpg
Here is another mess I found near Cherry Log Gap on Fodderstack Ridge in the Citico wilderness---a collapsed and discarded cheap walmart style tent with poles laying around and a hung tarp. I packed it all up and rolled it under a rock.





One of the more insidious waste products in the backcountry is pre dampened toilet paper. The manufacturers claim is this product dissolves in the waste system but many municipal waste systems are getting clogged with these products along with private septic systems. Compared to standard toilet paper in a backcountry situation, this product persists for far longer before breaking down and I expect in dry areas it may be years.

A very closely related product used by some hikers are pre-moistened towels to do a dry cleanup after a day of hiking. They generally are made with synthetic fibers and can take years to break down. Some idiots are burying these rather than packing them out.

There's a guy running a toilet paper degradation experiment on backpacklight.com---

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/backyard-tp-degradation-experiment/#post-3396271


PB, thank you for that useful info about the towels. I have been using those (packing them out) on the trail but will switch over to something more environmentally friendly this summer. A few years ago on here somebody had a recipe for "homemade" towelettes and I will look for it.

Jane

See above link.


LNT rules for cathholes are a compromise of sorts, to get compliance they need to make it reasonable with the least amount of impact. Catholes does allow more rapid breakdown and takes care of it being visible but many hard core LNT'er's would rather all waste be packed out. But even catholes are introducing non-native pathogens to a natural environment, from the human world (where dogs live) to the natural. Leaving poop on the surface enhances the probability of those pathogens getting into the local native animal population.

Some of my worst encounters with human idiots are the piles of tp and feces they leave above ground. They squat and drop a load and run screaming from the woods w/o the common courtesy of digging a hole. I call them the New American Patriots.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/Taylor-HeavyPack-From-Trip-46/i-Z2ZTXXt/0/L/TRIP%20100%20147-L.jpg
GRAPHIC WARNING!! LOOK AWAY!! This load was left on the banks of the South Fork Citico Creek and right in the middle of the campsite.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-c74F6tC/0/L/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20193-L.jpg
AVOID AT ALL COSTS!!! This wonderful human load was in Grassy Gap on the Grassy Gap trail and left right in the headwaters of Grassy Branch Creek.


BUT BY FAR the worst forest pigs are the guys who came out and clearcut the Southeast forest many decades ago.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-tzhWWs4/0/L/TRIP%20167%20107-L.jpg
Here's a forest service placard at a kiosk off the Cherohala Skyway at the Brushy Ridge overlook. They indeed took it all.

[aaronthebugbuffet]

Went out last week exploring the Forest Service roads around the TN NC border. So much litter and toilet trash it was sad.

[egilbe]

I went into Slickrock wilderness one month and found this tent permanently set up. I went back the next month and found it still set up so I regarded it as trash and took it down and rolled it up and left it at a popular trailhead for dayhikers to kindly hump out.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Tipi-Walter-Upper-Slickrock/i-zzBS9jP/0/L/TRIP%20145%20356-L.jpg

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Three-Citico-Nuts/i-wzkZjJm/0/L/TRIP%20170%20211-L.jpg
Here is another mess I found near Cherry Log Gap on Fodderstack Ridge in the Citico wilderness---a collapsed and discarded cheap walmart style tent with poles laying around and a hung tarp. I packed it all up and rolled it under a rock.





There's a guy running a toilet paper degradation experiment on backpacklight.com---

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/backyard-tp-degradation-experiment/#post-3396271



See above link.



Some of my worst encounters with human idiots are the piles of tp and feces they leave above ground. They squat and drop a load and run screaming from the woods w/o the common courtesy of digging a hole. I call them the New American Patriots.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/Taylor-HeavyPack-From-Trip-46/i-Z2ZTXXt/0/L/TRIP%20100%20147-L.jpg
GRAPHIC WARNING!! LOOK AWAY!! This load was left on the banks of the South Fork Citico Creek and right in the middle of the campsite.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-c74F6tC/0/L/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20193-L.jpg
AVOID AT ALL COSTS!!! This wonderful human load was in Grassy Gap on the Grassy Gap trail and left right in the headwaters of Grassy Branch Creek.


BUT BY FAR the worst forest pigs are the guys who came out and clearcut the Southeast forest many decades ago.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-tzhWWs4/0/L/TRIP%20167%20107-L.jpg
Here's a forest service placard at a kiosk off the Cherohala Skyway at the Brushy Ridge overlook. They indeed took it all.

Did the same thing to the Northeast. After the trees were gone, whole towns disappeared that grew up around the logging industry. Grafton ME was in existence for almost 70 years and now it's all forestland. Of course, all the native white pine of that size still haven't come back.

[saltysack]

The combined sewer outflows are the issue, and mostly from NYC. Its gotten a lot better over the last several years as NYC has put new state of the art waste water treatment plants on line. The issue is that the plastics tend to hang around and unless removed, will just come in and out on the tides until stranded on the beach. Eventually UV from sunlight will break them down.

Yea they break down years later then they get ingested by sea turtles etc.....plastics are ruining our planet!

[martinb]

Unfortunately, the pics posted are typical findings on most trails these days. The larger question is what are you (and me) going to do about it?

[saltysack]

Unfortunately, the pics posted are typical findings on most trails these days. The larger question is what are you (and me) going to do about it?

Hopefully everyone on here will chip in and pack out what you can....I see your in new Smyrna beach....my daughters friend got bit by a shark there yesterday while surfing....ouch.....http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160425/76c4b6d7246427953e18282a5adc8192.jpg

[Tipi Walter]

Don't see how the bite pic is relevant to trail pigs or leaving trash in the woods.

[saltysack]

Don't see how the bite pic is relevant to trail pigs or leaving trash in the woods.

Just saw martinb happened to be from where happened no relevance...

[Miel]

Yea they break down years later then they get ingested by sea turtles etc.....plastics are ruining our planet!

^^100%^^

Neither land nor sea needs such environmental menaces. Not worth the convenience.

[Traveler]

This is not necessarily the case. I have run into a number pf people on trail seemed to be offended by my dog's very existence, I have even run into a few hikers that were angered by the fact that they had to pass by my leashed dog who was in a sit command off trail after we had yielded the way to them as they approached, Fortunately these encounters have been quite rare.

I agree there may not be a 100% acceptance, but generally, people have less issue with dogs who's owners have taken the time to train them.

[Offshore]

Yea they break down years later then they get ingested by sea turtles etc.....plastics are ruining our planet!

Its even worse. Plastics adsorb contaminants (persistent bioaccumulative pollutants) and then get ingested by fish and animals who get ingested by other fish and animals, concentrating pollutants all the way, until they reach your fish market. This is the reason for all of the concern over the polyethylene microbeads contained in so many toothpaste and skincare products. They are too small to get caught in the wastewater treatment plants and out they go.

[tflaris]

Timely thread as I have been formulating a plan for removing crap from some areas near the FL trail in Ocala NF. One trailhead to hidden pond is a mini trash heap with dozens of discarded plastic water jugs and what-not. I was pretty peeved that people, apparently, couldn't care less about the junk they leave behind. I've also found enough trash out along the FL trail to make me wonder why some people even bother going out into the wilderness. I guess it's a conquest thing? I don't know. It certainly can't be a love of the wilderness based on the junk left behind.

Give me a pm. More than happy to lend a hand.

TF

[peakbagger]

Re toilet paper degradation tests and earthworms.

Earthworms are very effective at processing cellulosic and organic wastes. I believe that at least one trail club was adding worms to their composting privies to increase the effectiveness.

Unfortunately earthworms are actually an invasive species up in the Northeast as they are overly efficient at processing the leaf litter on the ground. Once worms get into an area, they permanently modify the local ground conditions so that certain tree types do not successfully reseed while other tree types are encouraged. This causes a gradual shift from northern forest type trees to more temperate climates trees.

Unfortunately few critters including worms eat plastic and the "wet ones" type clean up pads are frequently now made out of plastic fibers instead of cellulose fibers.

[egilbe]

Re toilet paper degradation tests and earthworms.

Earthworms are very effective at processing cellulosic and organic wastes. I believe that at least one trail club was adding worms to their composting privies to increase the effectiveness.

Unfortunately earthworms are actually an invasive species up in the Northeast as they are overly efficient at processing the leaf litter on the ground. Once worms get into an area, they permanently modify the local ground conditions so that certain tree types do not successfully reseed while other tree types are encouraged. This causes a gradual shift from northern forest type trees to more temperate climates trees.

Unfortunately few critters including worms eat plastic and the "wet ones" type clean up pads are frequently now made out of plastic fibers instead of cellulose fibers.

Maine Huts and Trails uses red worms in their composting toilets. The care taker there said they've never had to empty them. The toilets flush with some kind of foam. No water used.

There were no earthworms in North America until sailing ships started dumping ballast to take on cargo. Earthworms are another invasive species.

[mandolindave]

I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir, and I don't want to be the self righteous guy who boasts of their fastidiousness.

An EPA employee wondered what was happening to all of the rubber that wears off of the four tires of millions of autos, and what impact it could have on our planet. They did a study and found that micro organisms in the soil, ate the rubber before it got more than five feet away from the highway. But I suspect that rain water moved a lot of it.

I read in a Mother Earth News article on Out houses that the " effluent " doesn't get more than a few inches away from the pit before micro organisms neutralize it.

I have also been told that the best and greenest way to remove a tree stump is to cover it with dirt.

I don't know how much of this is BS. so don't quote me. My point is that cat holes, probably do a good job. I rationalize my use of them by remembering that Bears are Catholic, and the Pope shirts in the woods…..( or something like that )

[Ktaadn]

I've seen diapers in fire rings on a couple occasions. I'm always amazed at the amount of broken glass that I see out in the woods. Who is carrying that out there?

My favorite is finding half a jar of peanut butter in the corner of a shelter after carefully bear-bagging my food the night before. I guess the bears just weren't hungry in that neck of the woods.

[Platypus2016]

There are only two types of hikers...
1. Those who leave trash, and destroy our beautiful resources

2. Those who carry group 1's trash out, and try to save our natural resources.

But please don't use the "redneck" term coinsidingly with trash, that is just as bad as using a racial slur to some of us southerners. I'm a redneck, and proud of it, and I practice LNT and carry any trash I see out on my shoulders.. Just food for thought

-Platypus

[mandolindave]

Other random thoughts on dogs. I rescued a BIG dog that grew up in a big city. I brought him to my ten acre property and taught him not to roam off of it. In four years I saw him poop three times. ( once because he was on a leash at a festival and was holding it for three days ) My little doggy girl, searches for the perfect spot to poop, and doesn't like for me to watch. I laugh when she takes a long time in attempt to cover her mess, even though she can't dig through the vegetation to yield enough dirt to cover it.

My point is that dogs have an instinctual thing about pooping. Some say it's to keep predators from finding them. But they do seem to know that dirt will do the trick.

I wouldn't bring either of them on the trail, for their sake. But it's your loss, The big dog saved my life, and there was only one donkey that didn't fall in love with my little girl…( the donkey was an ass )

[Pedaling Fool]

I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir, and I don't want to be the self righteous guy who boasts of their fastidiousness.

An EPA employee wondered what was happening to all of the rubber that wears off of the four tires of millions of autos, and what impact it could have on our planet. They did a study and found that micro organisms in the soil, ate the rubber before it got more than five feet away from the highway. But I suspect that rain water moved a lot of it.

I read in a Mother Earth News article on Out houses that the " effluent " doesn't get more than a few inches away from the pit before micro organisms neutralize it.

I have also been told that the best and greenest way to remove a tree stump is to cover it with dirt.

I don't know how much of this is BS. so don't quote me. My point is that cat holes, probably do a good job. I rationalize my use of them by remembering that Bears are Catholic, and the Pope shirts in the woods…..( or something like that )
That's very true. It becomes a very fertile source of water and nutrients and is the basic premise behind Hugelkultur https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mibKS_Bdolg

[mandolindave]

There are only two types of hikers...
1. Those who leave trash, and destroy our beautiful resources

2. Those who carry group 1's trash out, and try to save our natural resources.

But please don't use the "redneck" term coinsidingly with trash, that is just as bad as using a racial slur to some of us southerners. I'm a redneck, and proud of it, and I practice LNT and carry any trash I see out on my shoulders.. Just food for thought

-Platypus

Where did recycling start….wait for it…..New Jersey of all places. I worked for the guy who started it to prevent the use of mass incinerators. I moved to Pennsylvania and was appalled by the country folk's, burning of tires and plastics, lack of any recycling programs, dumping trash over a hill because that's what their father did. ETC !Things have gotten a little better, but I still hear the " N " word, even by church goers. They don't like people from New Jersey. It would be terrible, and erroneous to lump all of the country folk into one set, but I would urge everyone to set a good example and do your best to educate if at all possible.

[mandolindave]

BTW….The recycling program in my old hometown turned it's garbage dump into a BIG money maker. Electronics recycling is becoming a VERY profitable industry. So don't throw computers, and TVs away. Save the planet, not just the trail. Together, we can make a big difference and all that good stuff. Sorry for preaching to the choir….AGAIN

[Tipi Walter]

But please don't use the "redneck" term coinsidingly with trash, that is just as bad as using a racial slur to some of us southerners. I'm a redneck, and proud of it, and I practice LNT and carry any trash I see out on my shoulders.. Just food for thought

-Platypus

The word "redneck" in my opinion does not define a person's ethnicity but his behavior and actions. I was careful though to title my thread Human Trail Pigs instead of Redneck Trail Pigs as I know how sensitive some people can be. I consider myself to be both a hillbilly (a gap-toothed one at that since I'm missing a front tooth) and also a redneck. But there are two types of rednecks and one type is giving us---the other type--- a bad name. Platypus2016 clearly listed the two types of hikers (ergo the two types of rednecks)---those who take care of the forest and those who trash the forest.

This whole thread is about those who mistreat our mountains and trails and campsites, call them what you will.

[FooFooCuddlyPoops]

I am lucky to have only ever come across one person on the trail that were dog nazis. Even he was patient while I wresled with my yojngest dogs sudden fear of his fishing pole.

I am like you. I unleash the oldest dog who comes back when called. If someone shows up, I step off the trail. Its never the other person getting his hike disturbed as he gets to walk non stop. Its our hike that is constantly stop and go.

But! I wouldn't have it any other way. My dogs are happy on the trail. They dont bother anyone, and they know to obey commands or they get punished with no free time untill they are remined to be good.

As far as the topic of trash, i have packed out cans from campsites at apple orchard falls. I also packed out a tent that broke kn someone.

However, I am never mad. Some people dont know any better. Some people change when they learn. My first backpacking experience sure wasnt lntb. I remember tossing broken poles in frustration.

[Traillium]

Re toilet paper degradation tests and earthworms.

Earthworms are very effective at processing cellulosic and organic wastes. I believe that at least one trail club was adding worms to their composting privies to increase the effectiveness.

Unfortunately earthworms are actually an invasive species up in the Northeast as they are overly efficient at processing the leaf litter on the ground. Once worms get into an area, they permanently modify the local ground conditions so that certain tree types do not successfully reseed while other tree types are encouraged. This causes a gradual shift from northern forest type trees to more temperate climates trees.

Unfortunately few critters including worms eat plastic and the "wet ones" type clean up pads are frequently now made out of plastic fibers instead of cellulose fibers.

+1 to this. Too few people are aware of this important detail.
BTW, our general infatuation with (foreign invasive) Lumbricus earthworms comes from perhaps the seminal work in what we now call ecology. An English gentleman with great experiences as a naturalist scientist spent years investigating earthworms on the grassy Downs of southern England — where Lumbricus is native and does have an important ecological role. If this naturalist hadn't published anything else, we'd honour him as the father of Ecology. However, he went on the publish another work titled The Origen Of The Species — and we blithely overlook his importance to ecology.

[rocketsocks]

Found this crap on one of my local trails, not the AT.

[martinb]

Just saw martinb happened to be from where happened no relevance...

salty, NSB is my home break, not surprised someone got nipped as there are lots of spinners.

Now, back to your regularly-scheduled thread.

[Tea In The Trees]

I hate the anti-dog sentiment although I also HATE even more that I hike and see piles of dog poop everywhere on my local mountain trail. I hike with my dogs and let them off leash and my dogs run through the woods and when they do have to go it is generally far off the trail. Should they rarely go on the edge of the trail or within "smelling" distance, I remove it to far enough in the woods where nature can take care of it and no one has to smell or step in it. I really don't see why I need to carry plastic bags to pick up poop to add to my landfill when my dogs can go take a crap out in the woods just like all the other wild animals out there do.

However, the anti-dog nazi's give the hairy eyeball when they see my dogs off-leash on the unpopulated, lightly hiked dirt roads and trails despite the fact that the dogs come when called and I leash them when anyone is approaching. Often these are people with their kids who clutch their kids to their side when they see a dog...probably these kids get away from thier Nntendo games once a year for their forced nature activity where they can learn to be scared of friendly dogs because they are not tied up.

If I walk my dogs on a leash then they are forced to pee and poop on the trail and then I am forced to haul crap out. Stupid if you ask me. If I can dig a cat hole and bury mine then I'm not sure why everyone else can't do the same with their dogs.

My dogs are fit and active. When I hike 5 miles, they have probably run 15. Walking them on a leash would barely take the edge off them.

I wish for 2 things.

1) dog people would be more responsible to not make people like myself look bad by leaving dog crap on the trails.
2) children clutching anti-dog nazi's would hike the more populated trails where dogs must be leashed and let those of us who like to hike with our dogs off leash have a little non-judgy peace and quiet.
I feel you pain as far as dogs go. I've been screamed by people because my dogs run free. They don't hurt any wildlife, they don't mess with other hikers, and they listen to us completely. YET everytime I run into some a-hole, they follow down the trail preaching about how wrong I am to let my dogs act like animals. Since they were 8 weeks old, I've had them in the woods without leash and never had a problem. Bad owners are the problem, not dogs. -Nate

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Offshore]

I feel you pain as far as dogs go. I've been screamed by people because my dogs run free. They don't hurt any wildlife, they don't mess with other hikers, and they listen to us completely. YET everytime I run into some a-hole, they follow down the trail preaching about how wrong I am to let my dogs act like animals. Since they were 8 weeks old, I've had them in the woods without leash and never had a problem. Bad owners are the problem, not dogs. -Nate

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

The irony here is almost too much to take. A guy that feels so entitled because his dogs are so special that the rules cannot possibly apply to him is the very definition of a bad dog owner (and an a-hole).

[August W.]

The irony here is almost too much to take. A guy that feels so entitled because his dogs are so special that the rules cannot possibly apply to him is the very definition of a bad dog owner (and an a-hole).

Aww come on now. His dogs would never trample any rare or threatened plant species because they never run off the trail, and they would never disturb someone who has a deep fear of dogs because when they approach that panicking person because their tails are wagging, and he truly is entitled to be above both the rules and common code of ethics because his dogs listen and obey perfectly all the time. Do they make leashes for humans? Some deserve to be kept on sidewalks and off our trails.

[Miel]

Its even worse. Plastics adsorb contaminants (persistent bioaccumulative pollutants) and then get ingested by fish and animals who get ingested by other fish and animals, concentrating pollutants all the way, until they reach your fish market. This is the reason for all of the concern over the polyethylene microbeads contained in so many toothpaste and skincare products. They are too small to get caught in the wastewater treatment plants and out they go.

Microbeads will be outlawed for sale in the US next year. Problem is, people will still have these products in their homes.

[DuneElliot]

The irony here is almost too much to take. A guy that feels so entitled because his dogs are so special that the rules cannot possibly apply to him is the very definition of a bad dog owner (and an a-hole).

How do you know he's not on an off-leash trail and thus following the rules?

[Sarcasm the elf]

How do you know he's not on an off-leash trail and thus following the rules?

Because it's much easier to just hijack a thread by complaining about dogs. It's a common occurance on this site. :(

[Offshore]

How do you know he's not on an off-leash trail and thus following the rules?

He was clearly attempting to make the point that because his dogs are so well behaved and he's such a good owner, leash laws don't apply to him. As far as a particular trail, he never mentioned if leashes are required or not since the rules don't apply to the best dogs and owners on the trail.

[Offshore]

Because it's much easier to just hijack a thread by complaining about dogs. It's a common occurance on this site. :(

Did you ever consider that it's common for a reason? Of course you didn't because our dogs are special, which explains the defensiveness. BTW - dog crap or trash all over a trail is the same as far as an indicator of the mindset of the responsible party.

[saltysack]

Because it's much easier to just hijack a thread by complaining about dogs. It's a common occurance on this site. :(
+1
The more I read this crap...the less I like this site..the funny thing is in all my time on trail I've never had an issue with my pup...in fact most everyone I've encountered gets a kick out of my lil hiking machine. I admit he's seldom on a leash, i do pick him up when we encounter others to make sure there not afraid of dogs etc....I realize not all people love dogs the way I do and I RESPECT that! I don't allow my pup around them! What's not to like about this!!!http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/8c92c8b062b6e8dc41901cec68facba0.jpg

[Sarcasm the elf]

Did you ever consider that it's common for a reason?

It's mostly because the internet if full of whiney armchair quarterbacks* who are more interested in venting their frustrations than posting anything constructive.


*I should know, I'm one of them

[AO2134]

I think everyone of us probably have left an unintentional mark or two on the trail. I've had a water bottle pop out of my pack while hiking and I didn't even notice. I've left a headlamp at camp by mistake. A guidebook also fell out of my pocket once while hiking and I didn't realize it until much, much later. I am sure just about all of us are guilty of accidentally leaving something behind or something dropping out of our packs without our knowledge.

I hope the person behind me picked up my guide book and got a free guide book. I hope the next person at my camp found a free headlamp that still worked.

With that being said, what these people did is just god awful. It should be legal for me to put my foot so squarely up their . . . . if I were to see this done in person.

To make up for my unintentional mistakes, I've probably picked up 50X the stuff I unintentionally left behind. There is virtually no trip I don't clean up after someone.

[gsingjane]

Given that this thread does seem to deal with trail dogs to a certain degree, I have a question and I am hoping that it will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended - open, sincere, really wanting an answer or a constructive discussion and NOT to troll or cause a problem.

Here is what I would like to know. When I am backpacking, or hiking, or trail running, from time to time I do see dogs approach me with no visible owner. Most of the time, within a short period of time, the owner will at least come into earshot if not view, and realize that the dog has encountered another human. At that point, the owner will either call the dog back (and it will go or not go) or the owner will say, "this dog is friendly" or some variation. I still mostly don't pet other folks' dogs because I don't know how the people OR the dogs will feel about it, but hopefully that is understood as a sign of respect (the same as I would not touch someone else's child unless invited to do so). I don't scream or snarl that I know of.

My question relates to the interim period, when the dog is visible but the owner isn't. As the person encountering that dog, not knowing anything about it, what is the proper reaction? It doesn't really seem like the very best course of action is to assume that the dog is friendly and safe, because sadly enough not all dogs are. What I always do upon encountering an owner-less dog is back WAY down, back WAY off, stop whatever I am doing and keep my eyes on the dog at all times until the situation is resolved somehow. I am thinking that perhaps owners still feel that is unfriendly or hostile behavior? So I guess what should other trail users be doing, when they encounter a dog without an owner?

Jane

p.s. My town has done the fund-raising for and is now opening a dedicated dog park, where all the dogs can play together and run free. This strikes me as a very sensible and good solution.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

In similar misbehavior management, one particular state park near me had a recurrent problem of dog owners ignoring the leash law and the clean up after your dog rule, even after the park provided dog waste bags. This spring, they posted a large sign at the trail head asking other hikers not to engage directly with but to photograph owners (and their dogs) in violation of these regulations (including license plate if in the parking lot) and provide either a ranger or the park office personnel with the photograph. End result was no more trail side bags of dog waste and no more dogs running loose on any of my visits since the sign was posted. You can't try to reason with unreasonable behavior. In this case, the dogs rules were prominently posted for years and the dog owners knew they were breaking the leash law and violating the dog waste regulation. But it seemed to take the park managers engaging other trail users in reporting the problematic owners, greatly increasing their risk of violators getting caught.

Here's a question. Dogs are banned from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, however, horses aren't, and in many cases, hikers share the AT with horseback riders. I have never seen a rider clean up after their horse, and they leave four times as much as my dog. What gives? I never understood that.

I'll wait for Tipi Walter to chime in on this- I know he hates it.

[saltysack]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/406cf619bb7bd4e67399a7d10dd4bcb2.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[egilbe]

Horse manure bothers me as much as moose poop, which is next to none. It's mostly partially digested grass that breaks down fairly quickly.

[Sarcasm the elf]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160426/406cf619bb7bd4e67399a7d10dd4bcb2.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't get it at all, but that still made me laugh. :D

[saltysack]

I thought it would lighten the anti dog tension...sorry I'm awful at non relevant posts and pics...I'll refrain...


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[Sarcasm the elf]

I thought it would lighten the anti dog tension...sorry I'm awful at non relevant posts and pics...I'll refrain...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No need to refrain, I specialize in awful and irrelevant jokes.

34621

[rafe]

Here's a question. Dogs are banned from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, however, horses aren't, and in many cases, hikers share the AT with horseback riders. I have never seen a rider clean up after their horse, and they leave four times as much as my dog. What gives? I never understood that.

I'll wait for Tipi Walter to chime in on this- I know he hates it.

Horse poop is nowhere near as offensive as dog (or human) poop.

[rocketsocks]

Horse poop is nowhere near as offensive as dog (or human) poop.hell you say

[rocketsocks]

Horse manure bothers me as much as moose poop, which is next to none. It's mostly partially digested grass that breaks down fairly quickly....tween yur toes!

[rocketsocks]

The phrase "I be stepped in ****e" does not differentiate.

[dudeijuststarted]

In CT, near the river beyond those awful craggy bluffs, was an absolutely trashed and unusable shelter. The tent sites were pretty poor, and someone (a human) took a poop right in the middle of the only good one.

I hate CT.

[perdidochas]

Horse manure bothers me as much as moose poop, which is next to none. It's mostly partially digested grass that breaks down fairly quickly.

That and dog poop has more chance to have parasites that can effect us. (It breaks down pretty quickly, too).

[mandolindave]

Scat from carnivorous animals usually smells worse than scat from vegetarian animals. I tell you what…bear, deer, and fox urine is nasty, and it likes to hang around a spell. I've been almost standing in bear pooh and never smelled it.

[Tipi Walter]

Here's a question. Dogs are banned from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, however, horses aren't, and in many cases, hikers share the AT with horseback riders. I have never seen a rider clean up after their horse, and they leave four times as much as my dog. What gives? I never understood that.

I'll wait for Tipi Walter to chime in on this- I know he hates it.

Yes, horses do a tremendous amount of trail damage and of course leave their turds everywhere. Having a thousand lb animal on steel hooves is crazy when they are allowed on our mountain trails. They always make big dirt divots on the outermost part of a trail causing the trail to collapse downhill.

And when crossing mud bogs or creeks they leave a giant rutted mud mess almost impossible to pass thru on foot.

Oh and btw, horses are not indigenous to the North American continent and haven't been here for 10,000 years. They are an introduced invasive species.

Horsemen, who I called Saddle Potatoes (because horses do all the work), in effect leave their horse turds all thru the woods and never seem to care. Do they carry poop bags and haul it out? Nope. Here is therefore the lesson from the horsemen: If it's alright for them to crap right in the middle of the trail, it should be a-okay for backpackers to squat on the trail and leave our turds. Why not? It's okay for horses and the horseback riders. End O' Rant.

Mt Rogers backcountry is one of the worse places for horseback riders. I found this dropped shoe in the Lewis Fork wilderness.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-Wfnv7ph/0/L/TRIP%20123%20307-L.jpg

[BuckeyeFan]

No need to refrain, I specialize in awful and irrelevant jokes.

34621
This is epic! Thanks I needed the laugh and smile today!

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[Dogwood]

Here's a question. Dogs are banned from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, however, horses aren't, and in many cases, hikers share the AT with horseback riders. I have never seen a rider clean up after their horse, and they leave four times as much as my dog. What gives? I never understood that.

I'll wait for Tipi Walter to chime in on this- I know he hates it.

I'll chime in. First, I'm not anti dog or anti horse. I'm most anti stupid human with a dog or horse.

Dog behavior verse horse behavior can be compared and contrasted far far beyond the aspect of "poop." How humans interact with both these other animals is significantly different too.

GSMNP is a NP. It's there for the wildlife TOO! I've never experienced a horse chase wildlife, make the sounds a dog does, directly intentionally instinctively kill wildlife, ……

In short, overall the horse and horse owners fit in better to the overall environment and goals of a NP or Wilderness Area where and when they are allowed compared to dogs especially customarily unleashed poorly trained dogs and inept unaware dog owners.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I'll chime in. First, I'm not anti dog or anti horse. I'm most anti stupid human with a dog or horse.

Dog behavior verse horse behavior can be compared and contrasted far far beyond the aspect of "poop." How humans interact with both these other animals is significantly different too.

GSMNP is a NP. It's there for the wildlife TOO! I've never experienced a horse chase wildlife, make the sounds a dog does, directly intentionally instinctively kill wildlife, ……

In short, overall the horse and horse owners fit in better to the overall environment and goals of a NP or Wilderness Area where and when they are allowed compared to dogs especially customarily unleashed poorly trained dogs and inept unaware dog owners.

As I understand it, the horses are permitted due to specific, legally binding agreements that were made while the park was being founded and it is not something that the park has the right to revoke.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and try to fact check that previous sentence.

[Dogwood]

"I'm most anti stupid human with a dog or horse."

And, by a vast majority, in 98 out of 100 cases, stupid inept humans with untrained disobedient dogs far outweigh inconsiderate horses and horsemen. I will say the same for llamas, goats, mules, donkeys, reindeer, and camels I've encountered. Some Lllamas and many camels have to be given a wide berth though.

[Dogwood]

As I understand it, the horses are permitted due to specific, legally binding agreements that were made while the park was being founded and it is not something that the park has the right to revoke.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go and try to fact check that precious sentence.


Do you mean going to imright.com finding "facts" that support your comment? :D I bet you were disqualified in foot races for jumping the starting line before the gun. ;)

[Sarcasm the elf]

Given that this thread does seem to deal with trail dogs to a certain degree, I have a question and I am hoping that it will be taken in the spirit in which it is intended - open, sincere, really wanting an answer or a constructive discussion and NOT to troll or cause a problem.

Here is what I would like to know. When I am backpacking, or hiking, or trail running, from time to time I do see dogs approach me with no visible owner. Most of the time, within a short period of time, the owner will at least come into earshot if not view, and realize that the dog has encountered another human. At that point, the owner will either call the dog back (and it will go or not go) or the owner will say, "this dog is friendly" or some variation. I still mostly don't pet other folks' dogs because I don't know how the people OR the dogs will feel about it, but hopefully that is understood as a sign of respect (the same as I would not touch someone else's child unless invited to do so). I don't scream or snarl that I know of.

My question relates to the interim period, when the dog is visible but the owner isn't. As the person encountering that dog, not knowing anything about it, what is the proper reaction? It doesn't really seem like the very best course of action is to assume that the dog is friendly and safe, because sadly enough not all dogs are. What I always do upon encountering an owner-less dog is back WAY down, back WAY off, stop whatever I am doing and keep my eyes on the dog at all times until the situation is resolved somehow. I am thinking that perhaps owners still feel that is unfriendly or hostile behavior? So I guess what should other trail users be doing, when they encounter a dog without an owner?

Jane

Ah yes, the infuriating dog without owner scenario. This is one least favorite things to deal with on the trail and only gets worse if I have my leashed dog with me, since I then have to deal with controling both my dog and the one that is unattended.

I have no perfect way of dealing with it, but what I typically do when a strange dog approaches me on trail without a visible owner I call out something such as "Git!" this usually causes them to run back to their owners and solves the problem before it starts. Most dogs know enough to reapond to a firm "No" or often just a hand held straight out in the universal "stop" signal. If andog does approach me my default is to place my hiking poles between the dog and myself, not in a threatening manner, I simply put the tips in the ground in front of me and hold them much in the same way I would if I stopped for a moment to rest. This creates some space between myself and the dog, plus dogs are smart enough to know that by doing this I'm giving them a signal that they should not approach me. This techniques is great because it stops friendly dogs from jumping on me in additon to keeping potentially fear aggressive dogs away.


You are correct to never assume a dog is friendly. It is important to understand that dogs are creatures of habit and do not generalize well; a dog that is not used to being in the woods or encountering strangers by itself can become both stressed and defensive in this situation, even if it is normally a very friendly in everyday life (an important point that many irresponsible owners fail to understand.) I've gotten to the point where I don't let a dog approach me on the trail until after I have met and spoken to the owner.

Regarding the people who say "Oh, he's friendly" I respond by saying "Yeah, he's also not under control."


p.s. My town has done the fund-raising for and is now opening a dedicated dog park, where all the dogs can play together and run free. This strikes me as a very sensible and good solution.

Unfortunately dog parks really aren't the great idea that people think they are and are likely somewhat of a fad. Dogs are pack animals that thrive when they are around dogs they know with an understood dominance hierarchy. My dog's trainer refers to dog parks as "the most unnatural situation you can possibly put a dog into." Sadly injuries, dogfights, fights between angry owners, and resulting lawsuits are all fairly common at dog parks. I used to go to the one in New Canaan a decade ago and witnessed all of these things happen. The public New Canaan dog park has since been transformed into what is effectiy a members club because of these problems. They have locked the gates and you are not allowed access until you sign up and your dog has been approved by a formal process.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Do you mean going to imright.com finding "facts" that support your comment? :D I bet you were disqualified in foot races for jumping the starting line before the gun. ;)

Hehe...I'm actually having a hard time finding this one in imright.com, all the google searches just want to sell me a guided horseback tour of the park instead of giving me any background info or history. I think I originally read the info in an honest to goodness printed book, but I can't recall exactly where.

[Dogwood]

Here's a question. Dogs are banned from the Great Smoky Mountains National Park, however, horses aren't, and in many cases, hikers share the AT with horseback riders. I have never seen a rider clean up after their horse, and they leave four times as much as my dog. What gives? I never understood that.

I'll wait for Tipi Walter to chime in on this- I know he hates it.

This is incorrect.

Again, have to say it again, because there are some short memories abounding here or those who will not read an entire thread considered the comments in context. I am NOT anti dog or anti horse OR pro dog or pro horse!

Dogs ARE ALLOWED in GSMNP under certain circumstances. For instance, walking a dog on gravel roads or in the Cades Cove area or in picnic or CG areas or on some walking paths/trails ALWAYS ON A LEASH. They are not allowed in the backcountry and, again always on a leash.

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/pets.htm

http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2010/11/dogs-on-trails-in-smokies.html



HORSES ARE ALSO ALLOWED in GSMNP under certain circumstances. Camping with horses or public horse back riding is only allowed on certain trails. One noteworthy consideration: BOTH dogs and horses are to always be controlled and contained and properly supervised by their owners/users. Ever see a horse running freely rampaging in GSMNP?

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/horseriding.htm

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/horsecamps.htm

[Lone Wolf]

some things will never change. trashin' the trail is one of them. only gonna get worse

[AO2134]

Yes, horses do a tremendous amount of trail damage and of course leave their turds everywhere. Having a thousand lb animal on steel hooves is crazy when they are allowed on our mountain trails. They always make big dirt divots on the outermost part of a trail causing the trail to collapse downhill.

And when crossing mud bogs or creeks they leave a giant rutted mud mess almost impossible to pass thru on foot.

Oh and btw, horses are not indigenous to the North American continent and haven't been here for 10,000 years. They are an introduced invasive species.

Horsemen, who I called Saddle Potatoes (because horses do all the work), in effect leave their horse turds all thru the woods and never seem to care. Do they carry poop bags and haul it out? Nope. Here is therefore the lesson from the horsemen: If it's alright for them to crap right in the middle of the trail, it should be a-okay for backpackers to squat on the trail and leave our turds. Why not? It's okay for horses and the horseback riders. End O' Rant.

Mt Rogers backcountry is one of the worse places for horseback riders. I found this dropped shoe in the Lewis Fork wilderness.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-Wfnv7ph/0/L/TRIP%20123%20307-L.jpg

Tipi, do you have the same complain when Rangers use horses or just us regular folks (i.e., regular people who use horses to enjoy the trail)?

I can understand why Rangers would have need and use for fast and efficient travel through the park. I understand less why regular people do, but this comes from someone who hates the concept of "car campers" as a general rule. The idea of not carrying your own weight annoys me.

Could horses and llamas be useful in helping trail maintainers transport equipment? Sure. I'd be okay with that, I am less okay with it when it is just lazy "hikers."

[Dogwood]

Could horses and llamas be useful in helping trail maintainers transport equipment?

Yes. It already occurs.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

This is incorrect.

Again, have to say it again, because there are some short memories abounding here or those who will not read an entire thread considered the comments in context. I am NOT anti dog or anti horse OR pro dog or pro horse!

Dogs ARE ALLOWED in GSMNP under certain circumstances. For instance, walking a dog on gravel roads or in the Cades Cove area or in picnic or CG areas or on some walking paths/trails ALWAYS ON A LEASH. They are not allowed in the backcountry and, again always on a leash.

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/pets.htm

http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2010/11/dogs-on-trails-in-smokies.html



HORSES ARE ALSO ALLOWED in GSMNP under certain circumstances. Camping with horses or public horse back riding is only allowed on certain trails. One noteworthy consideration: BOTH dogs and horses are to always be controlled and contained and properly supervised by their owners/users. Ever see a horse running freely rampaging in GSMNP?

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/horseriding.htm

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/horsecamps.htm

My statement is only partially incorrect. As far as the AT is concerned, it is 100% factual. I 100% can't bring my dog on any stretch of the AT through the park, but I can 100% ride a horse along certain stretches of the AT through the park.

For the sake of discussion, I could care less about Cades Cove. I am only concerned about the backcountry; the AT to be specific.

Now let me add by saying, I am a dog owner, and I HATE seeing dog poop on the trail, and I also HATE irresponsible dog owners. (I have several idiot owners in my neighborhood).

[JumpMaster Blaster]

One of the local trails near my house is "foot traffic only". Unfortunately, some jerks bring their horses and ATVs out on it from time to time. Guess what? Unless the ATVs are doing donuts, the horses do more damage.

To play devil's advocate, could a horse or llama (or similar pack animal) help a person hike the AT?

[Dogwood]

Truth is truth. Mathematical Logics class taught me if part of a statement is false it makes the statement false. Textbook Logics questions are seen many times on tests like the SATs or Lie Detector tests.

For further sake of clarity you are indeed correct only portions of the AT are publicly open to horses. One can not ride the entire AT through GSMNP on a horse. Again, nobody, including hikers, get free reign to do any and all that they could possibly desire. Thank God!


Here is where horses are allowed on the AT.

https://www.smokiesadventure.com/smokymountains/outdoors/horseback-riding.htm

https://www.smokiesadventure.com/smokymountains/maps/pdfs/hikingmapOct-2012.pdf

Horses are allowed on dotted trails, not on the dashed trails.

I understand your concern as a dog lover. There are good reasons why dog rules are in place in GSMNP though. AND, there are good reasons why horse and hiker rules are ALSO in place in GSMNP.

[Traveler]

Having seen the "multi-use" trail concept that combines hikers with bicycles and horses, I have to say I am not a big fan. It seems a poor mix of users from the hiker perspective, though somewhat understandable in places where there is high population and little public land.

[Two Speed]

Yes, horses do a tremendous amount of trail damage and of course leave their turds everywhere . . . I have my issues with horses, too. When I did the Alabama Pinhoti a several years ago it was obvious that some of the locals didn't give a hot d*** about where horses were allowed, and where the trail was closed to horses. One section of side trail still stands out in my memory because the trail was about "kicked" out by horse traffic; hoof prints clearly in the collapsing part of the trail.

And yet when I finished the Alabama Pinhoti it was some horsemen that arranged a ride for me from Jackson Chapel to Cave Spring, and fed me a big ol' bag of the most awesome deer jerky I've ever had while we hung around waiting for my ride to show up. They wouldn't take a penny, all they wanted to do was chew the fat and exchange info on the trail and surrounding area. They struck me as very ethical outdoorsmen.

The short version is I don't blame the horses, I blame the knuckleheads that don't understand their sport. Much like backpacking my experience is the knuckleheads are a minority, they just cause a disproportionate amount of damage.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi, do you have the same complaint when Rangers use horses or just us regular folks (i.e., regular people who use horses to enjoy the trail)?

I can understand why Rangers would have need and use for fast and efficient travel through the park. I understand less why regular people do, but this comes from someone who hates the concept of "car campers" as a general rule. The idea of not carrying your own weight annoys me.

Could horses and llamas be useful in helping trail maintainers transport equipment? Sure. I'd be okay with that, I am less okay with it when it is just lazy "hikers."

Rangers on horseback are still horses on the trail no matter who rides them, with all the damage mentioned.

[DuneElliot]

I'm not going to get into an argument with anyone "anti-horses on the trail" but I do want to correct one thing. Horses DO NOT do all the work...it is a lot of work being in the saddle...you don't just sit there like a sack of potatoes. Riding horses uses more muscles than hiking and uses an average of 270 calories per hour.

[Tipi Walter]

I'm not going to get into an argument with anyone "anti-horses on the trail" but I do want to correct one thing. Horses DO NOT do all the work...it is a lot of work being in the saddle...you don't just sit there like a sack of potatoes. Riding horses uses more muscles than hiking and uses an average of 270 calories per hour.

I still call them saddle potatoes. Here are some personal factoids:
** My weight: 155 lbs
** Pack weight: 85 lbs
** Foot Trail: Nutbuster upper Slickrock OR North Fork Citico OR Brush Mt Citico OR Jenkins Meadow Joyce Kilmer wilderness.
** Calories per hour: around 900.

Now you see why I call them saddle potatoes.

In the Southeast where I go backpacking 99% of the horseback riders I see are Done In A Day types---they never carry gear for overnighters. In fact I have never seen horsemen spend the night in the woods on backcountry trails, although I rarely go into the Smokies.

And no matter how many calories horsemen expend, it doesn't discount the damage they are doing to our foot trails and in mud bogs and around creek crossings; oh and the poop they leave on the trail and in the water.

Btw, do these guys look like they are burning 270 calories per hour? (Taken on Stone Mt in the crest zone of Mt Rogers)---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-28PdWtN/0/L/TRIP%20123%20259-L.jpg

[Dogwood]

Well, that's a big pack o tatters on your back too. Have you considered the extra damage you can do to the trail slogging all that stuff and wt? The horror of deep human footprints that lead to erosion and broken flowering flora. How many crushed plants and amphibians and beneficial insects has that semi sized hauler notched? :rolleyes:

Gonna happen folks. Gonna see more trails nationwide becoming multi use. Better learn to get along share the trail where multi use is allowed or hike on footpath only trails. Might be better than jus bit chin and complain in about why you don't have everything the way you personally desire it. IMHO, I'd rather meet conscientious equestrians and pack train handlers(this has been the experienced norm for me!), hunters, mountain bikers, fishermen, and even ATVers(where they are allowed!) than spoiled selfish low level consciousness backpackers/hikers.

[TNhiker]

Better learn to get along share the trail where multi use is allowed or hike on footpath only trails.




yup............

and in the Park-----the horsemen association does more trail work and what not, then hiking or backpacking groups do.......

[DuneElliot]

yup............

and in the Park-----the horsemen association does more trail work and what not, then hiking or backpacking groups do.......

The Backcountry Horsemen of America (all chapters across the US) do a HUGE amount of trail work and repair, not to mention hauling in the tools and equipment that people can't carry.

[Dogwood]

Oh and btw, horses are not indigenous to the North American continent and haven't been here for 10,000 years. They are an introduced invasive species."

Actually, that is quite debatable. Certain Equus species are scientifically proven to indeed be indigenous to the N. American continent. http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2014/10/07/north-americas-wild-horses-native/#axzz473LovuNN

Your non native invasive species language is an argument used to lay the groundwork basis by those like yourself, ranchers, Wilderness Areas and BLM land accessors(cattlemen), mineral/logging/water/etc rights seekers that wish to preclude horses, "wild" or otherwise, from these areas. It's an underlying self serving basis for the extermination of existing "wild" horse populations in the west and mid west.

[Dogwood]

Yes, horses do a tremendous amount of trail damage and of course leave their turds everywhere. Having a thousand lb animal on steel hooves is crazy when they are allowed on our mountain trails. They always make big dirt divots on the outermost part of a trail causing the trail to collapse downhill.

And when crossing mud bogs or creeks they leave a giant rutted mud mess almost impossible to pass thru on foot…


Rangers on horseback are still horses on the trail no matter who rides them, with all the damage mentioned.




In the Southeast where I go backpacking 99% of the horseback riders I see are Done In A Day types---they never carry gear for overnighters. In fact I have never seen horsemen spend the night in the woods on backcountry trails, although I rarely go into the Smokies.

And no matter how many calories horsemen expend, it doesn't discount the damage they are doing to our foot trails and in mud bogs and around creek crossings; oh and the poop they leave on the trail and in the water…

You make valid observations but as you say you're doing 99% of you backpacking in the Southeast so you're limited geographical experiences of damage horses create is not universally the same across the U.S.

[Tipi Walter]

Oh and btw, horses are not indigenous to the North American continent and haven't been here for 10,000 years. They are an introduced invasive species."

Actually, that is quite debatable. Certain Equus species are scientifically proven to indeed be indigenous to the N. American continent. http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2014/10/07/north-americas-wild-horses-native/#axzz473LovuNN

Your non native invasive species language is an argument used to lay the groundwork basis by those like yourself, ranchers, Wilderness Areas and BLM land accessors(cattlemen), mineral/logging/water/etc rights seekers that wish to preclude horses, "wild" or otherwise, from these areas. It's an underlying self serving basis for the extermination of existing "wild" horse populations in the west and mid west.

My only qualification is that horses and their riders do not belong on foot trails in the mountains of TN, VA and NC. This is a common sight in the Mt Rogers wilderness area open to horses---

http://14761-presscdn-0-15.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/horse-damage-780x585.jpg
Pic from---
http://enduro-mtb.com/en/wilderness-act-banning-bikes-is-un%C2%AD-american/

[DuneElliot]

You make valid observations but as you say you're doing 99% of you backpacking in the Southeast so you're limited geographical experiences of damage horses create is not universally the same across the U.S.

Here are two pictures of trails that are extensively used by horses to prove your point:

34653

https://idlewildandpawprints.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/11143656_10155862534385076_5690019261758182026_o.j pg?w=676

[DuneElliot]

Well that didn't edit well.

[Tipi Walter]

You make valid observations but as you say you're doing 99% of you backpacking in the Southeast so you're limited geographical experiences of damage horses create is not universally the same across the U.S.

So if this is true, why are horses allowed on Southeastern hiking trails?? Just because horses do minimal damage out West, is this blanket permission to have them in the Southeast too?

[Tipi Walter]

The Backcountry Horsemen of America (all chapters across the US) do a HUGE amount of trail work and repair, not to mention hauling in the tools and equipment that people can't carry.

In my neck of the woods (Southern Cherokee NF/Nantahala NF), horsemen must do trailwork or they won't be able to get thru whatever trails they are riding. Here are some examples---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Backpacking-Bryan-DeLay/i-LCbzkhW/0/M/TRIP%20148%20115-M.jpg
This is a blowdown on the Pine Ridge trail, a designated wilderness horse trail. Point is, human hikers can get thru this mess, horsemen cannot. Better bring some tools, boys.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/17-Days-In-Rattlerville/i-fs3Qqcx/0/M/Trip%20165%20388-M.jpg
Another blowdown on Trail 149 and a horse trail. I got thru it okay with my ginormous pack. Horseback riders would've had a terrible time. Start cutting.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Big-Frog-Wilderness/i-dVcXNqX/0/M/TRIP%20168%20051-M.jpg
Here is the beauty of blowdowns---It keeps the horsemen OUT!! This is on the Grassy Gap trail in the Big Frog wilderness and off limits to horseback riders although they ride all the trails in the Frog. This one will certainly cause them to turn back although I got thru it okay on foot.

[Dogwood]

Ohh, a pic of the Long Trail of what pedestrian traffic(backpackers!) can do when solid advise to stay off the trail during mud season is ignored?

Ohh, a pic of the Northville Lake Placid Trail when solid advise to backpackers is ignored?

Ohh, a pic of Adirondak Park Trails when solid advise to backpackers is ignored?


Again, you only show pics of trails open to multi use horse travel as well in the Mt Rogers Nat Rec Area. Correct me if I'm wrong but all trails in MRNRA or Washington and Jefferson Nat Forest are NOT open to horses? So, AGAIN, if you don't like horses or their potential impacts seems simple enough…..hike on footpath only trails! Especially considering you are complaining about other users in a NATIONAL RECREATIONAL AREA most often allocated, designed, and managed to encompass a wide range of possible activities beyond backpacking/hiking.

[mandolindave]

"I'm most anti stupid human with a dog or horse."

And, by a vast majority, in 98 out of 100 cases, stupid inept humans with untrained disobedient dogs far outweigh inconsiderate horses and horsemen. I will say the same for llamas, goats, mules, donkeys, reindeer, and camels I've encountered. Some Lllamas and many camels have to be given a wide berth though.

I'm gonna have to disagree, and I am wondering where you came up with your "factual" statistics. Horses pooh and pee, where ever they are, when ever the spirit moves them. Yes, there are more dog owners than horse owners.

[Dogwood]

So if this is true, why are horses allowed on Southeastern hiking trails?? Just because horses do minimal damage out West, is this blanket permission to have them in the Southeast too?

That is not correct! For sure, if the info and links had been even cursory examined it is OBVIOUS NO ONE is giving blanket permission to horsemen. IT has been amply demonstrated MANY times on this thread CONDITIONS and RULES apply to horses also. In short, all trails are not open to horses in GSMNP, MRNRA, and the Nat Forests listed. Conditions and rules apply to horse use as well.

[Dogwood]

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/miscgreen/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Dogwood http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/images/Eloquent/buttonsgreen/viewpost-right.png (http://whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/118352-Human-Trail-Pigs/showthread.php?p=2062419#post2062419)
"I'm most anti stupid human with a dog or horse."

And, by a vast majority, in 98 out of 100 cases, stupid inept humans with untrained disobedient dogs far outweigh inconsiderate horses and horsemen. I will say the same for llamas, goats, mules, donkeys, reindeer, and camels I've encountered. Some Lllamas and many camels have to be given a wide berth though.



I'm gonna have to disagree, and I am wondering where you came up with your "factual" statistics. Horses pooh and pee, where ever they are, when ever the spirit moves them. Yes, there are more dog owners than horse owners.

Fair enough. These are my guesstimated personal case experiences encountering horses coming from a wide range of terrains and trails in a wide geographical and cultural state to state area across the U.S. from coast to coast and National border to National border. I ask you to consider your own experiences with horses compared to mine. Opinions will vary no doubt based on the quality, quantity, and diversity of experiences.

[saltysack]

I miss the smell of horse crap![emoji16]

https://vimeo.com/164474885


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rocketsocks]

This thread is in Dishonor of all the trail pigs who have left our trails and forests trashed and blighted. This includes both dayhikers and backpackers. Other photos are welcomed.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Backpacking-TN/i-N946JjG/0/M/TRIP%20125%20089-M.jpg
I found this wonderful Fir tree girdled on the BMT by a guy named LEVI.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Coy-Williams-and-the-25th/i-4tqrZ6c/0/M/TRIP%20114%20095-M.jpg
Redneck detritus on the Horse Cove trail in NC.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Backpacking-Bryan-DeLay/i-XbpfQrm/0/M/TRIP%20148%20173-M.jpg
A discarded redneck pig tarp on Slickrock Creek.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-cRCd5Lw/0/M/TRIP%20167%20040-M.jpg
Furniture and crap left on the Snowbird Creek trail.

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/SNOWBIRD-PRETRIP/i-hVvp6Sk/0/M/TRIP%20167%20317-M.jpg
Lawn chairs and tarp crap left on a trail in NC.


https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-Zcsg6jX/0/M/TRIP%20152%20172-M.jpg
In honor of Earth Day 2016 and left by some clueless woman in the Bald River wilderness of TN.

There are a group of diehard Linville Gorge hikers and backpackers who call these kind of people "Goats"---tourists---who drive out and park and leave their messes in the gorge, so I have to include this video I found today about such behavior---


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B96O2TRVcak&index=8&list=PLE98F83BB4D4A649 2
Bumpin' this very cool video, nice!

[rocketsocks]

I would enjoy a full length feature sequial complete with wrath P!entry.