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mmais68569
05-19-2016, 16:57
Looks like I should be in the White's about 7/17. Going to go with no Hut reservations as this is only an estimated date. So with that said here is what I need to know.
1. If I show up at a hut with no reservation will I be turned away?
2. If no are there provisions for thru hikes to sleep in the dining hall?
3. Trying to go hut to hut what food will I need? Can I get dinner & breakfast at the huts?

I am not a fast hiker at the age of 66 so work for stay is probably out of the question.
Thanks

Mike ( Mr. Mean)

rickb
05-19-2016, 17:13
1. Yes. But if (and that is a big if) they have a bed you should be able to pay full fare for it.
2. No. Don't plan on it since you will not be working for stay
3. Most everything. The huts have candy bars and sometimes soup for sale.

Work for stay is offered to a limited number of thru hikers.

There are GREAT strategies for enjoying the Whites without hut stays. Planning on them for meals and lodging without a paid reservation is probably not a good idea.

egilbe
05-19-2016, 17:16
If you get to the huts midweek, there is a better chance that there will be openings, if you want to spend the money and get fed and sleep in a bunk, but it's not something I would count on.

peakbagger
05-19-2016, 17:51
You want black or white answers and unfortunately the answers are gray

1.If I show up at a hut with no reservation will I be turned away? You can be. But you may not. Each hut has a variable number of "work for stay" openings for "thru hikers". If there are "no show" reservations the hut crew can offer you one of the open slots at the standard cost. If the weather is not threatening or its earlier in the day they may request that you move on and will remind you of the restrictions on camping above treeline. They can at their option especially if the weather is potentially dangerous allow folks to sleep on the floor, but they don't have to.
2. If no are there provisions for thru hikes to sleep in the dining hall? See prior question
3. Trying to go hut to hut what food will I need? Can I get dinner & breakfast at the huts? The huts offer all you can eat soup and occasionally leftovers in the AM along with home made treats. On weekends they can run out. There is no option to buy breakfast or dinner ala cart as they serve it family style to guests in one sitting. Therefore you need to carry enough food to cover breakfast and dinner in case you cant get into the huts.

The hut crews are given a lot of independence, thru hikers can be "entertainment" for the paying guests. Unfortunately you are at the mercy of the thru hikers that came through earlier in the season, if you happen to be following a bunch of rude morons who caused the crews extra work or impacted their guests experience, later thru hikers may see a tightening of the policies and a poor reception by the crews. This unfortunately is happening more often as the number of thru hikers increase. Due to the popularity of the area, there are many clueless weekenders who also think they can just show up without reservations and also a number of folks who get in over their head and decide they "need" to stay at the hut overnight due to their poor planning.

With the exception of the Lake of the Clouds to Madison Hut , you can generally hike down a side trail off the ridgeline approximately 1 mile and 1000 feet of elevation. This does not apply to trails that head down towards the Great Gulf or the Dry River Area. In this area folks can head down the Jewell trail to legal camping spot and the RMC campsites further north. Mid to late July is prime thunderstorm weather so those who elect to illegally camp above treeline (its not "stealth camping" its illegal camping) those folks may end up being exposed to dangerous weather overnight.

The folks who make reservations long in advance tend to want perfect weather and if the long range forecast is marginal, they have to cancel several days in advance to get their money back (I tried to find a link but AMC has dumbed down their website so finding the actual policies is impossible). Other folks schedule a multiday trip and either overestimate their ability or bad weather can cause them to cut a trip short freeing up space. Therefore there is a chance that you may be able to get last minute reservations. The crews are encouraged to maximize revenue so they will try to get paying guests in an open slot rather than leave extra slots for thru hikers. If the crews aren't busy, they can but don't have to call ahead to the next hut to make reservations, cell coverage along the ridgeline is generally available so I would suggest loading the AMC reservations number in your phone.

Some folks try to argue with the hut crew, they have heard it all, they do not have to make room for you. Some folks claim its an emergency and putting them out exposes them to potential injury or death. The crew may suggest that the party call fish and game to be rescued and they will be billed for the rescue. The reality is worse case in about 30 minutes or less a hiker can be in the trees and in an hour they can be in woods that could be used to an uncomfortable overnight.

nsherry61
05-19-2016, 18:16
Being a newbie to New England, I haven't been at any of the huts during peak season yet, but all three times I've been inside one, I've been offered dinner for a very reasonable price, even though I wasn't staying the night, and the crew was very helpful in routing me to the better nearby camping areas I could use. It's probably worth asking about dinner and/or breakfast, as they are able to serve more meals than they have room for people to sleep. They definitely do not serve lunch, but generally have snacks available, as mentioned above.

Feral Bill
05-19-2016, 19:39
. Mid to late July is prime thunderstorm weather so those who elect to illegally camp above treeline (its not "stealth camping" its illegal camping) those folks may end up being exposed to dangerous weather overnight.


Please take note of this. Back when it was legal, I spent a very scary night above treeline in the Whites. Definitely not recommended.

peakbagger
05-20-2016, 08:57
I live three mile north of Madison. In the summer a thunderstorm can blow in from VT later in the day and evening, when they hit the whites they crank up full intensity and the ridgeline is getting hit constantly for over an hour at a time. The water can come down like a fire hose, a tent would provide no shelter from the lightning and little if any from the rain. I expect most folks will curl up in ball and just hope they will survive. Usually when one storm comes thru there are several cells following it so it may be three or four hours of these conditions. The huts are equipped with lighting arrestors and ground cables so they can survive those conditions. Generally its too late to get to hut with a thunderstorm approaching as they move in quick.

With respect to selling meals to thruhikers as a prior poster stated, ts very dependent on the hut reservations, at most huts, the seating for the meals is completely full if the hut is full. Folks are literally "cheek to cheek" at most huts when the hut is booked out. As discussed earlier if they end up with no shows and if the crew can get some revenue from a meal or filling an empty slot, the crew is encouraged to do so. They have to carry all the perishables up and any uneaten food that they cant given away down so if there is food leftover the crew will generally hand leftovers to thruhikers.

greenpete
05-20-2016, 12:15
I plan to tent camp through the Whites, unless absolutely necessary to overnight at a hut. How long of a descent is it to go below treeline (on average), and are there level areas to pitch a tent? Anyone know of specific tent sites I can use?

rickb
05-20-2016, 12:56
I plan to tent camp through the Whites, unless absolutely necessary to overnight at a hut. How long of a descent is it to go below treeline (on average), and are there level areas to pitch a tent? Anyone know of specific tent sites I can use?

The stretch that requires some thought a few days in advance is between Nauman Tentsite and the Osgood Campsite.

That's the strech that is all above Treeline, and Lakes of the Clouds Hut breaks it up into two managble sections.

If you want to avoid avoid a stay at Lakes a plan will unfold as you get closer, I am sure. Staying at the RMC Perch rather than Lakes is classic strategy.

There no compelling logistical reason to even consider any other Hut besides Lakes.

Hikingjim
05-20-2016, 13:14
I plan to tent camp through the Whites, unless absolutely necessary to overnight at a hut. How long of a descent is it to go below treeline (on average), and are there level areas to pitch a tent? Anyone know of specific tent sites I can use?

it's a big area and hard to generalize about the time to get below tree line. But it's not usually that long to get below tree line if you are near a trail that descends. So usually it's just making sure you don't get too far from descending trails (ie: right in the middle of an exposed ridge) when bad weather is possible

maybe someone can recommend a good trail map for you that includes all the side trails off the AT. when I hiked around franconia ridge a few years ago in the summer, we had a bad run of weather. It was a pain in the ass. A lot of waiting around for safe pass. white outs, etc

There are a bunch of camping restricitions. Like no camping within a 100 or 200 yards of many popular side trails, etc.

So just spend the time planning out various contingency plans and know all the sites/side trails.

https://www.outdoors.org/lodging-camping/campsites/campsites-profile.cfm

have stayed at a couple of those, such as liberty springs campsite. was close to the AT, nice views. not sure if it would fill up at busy times though! Didn't have the AWOL guide there, but it have good information to be combined with a map

rafe
05-20-2016, 13:50
Order up a set of the AMC maps.

Descents off the ridgeline will cost you time and effort. The ones I can think of off the top of my head are Guyot, The Perch, and Hermit Lake shelters (down Tuckermans Ravine.) I don't see any easy way to avoid Lakes of The Clouds hut.

peakbagger
05-20-2016, 19:44
Once you leave Mitzpah heading north your legal options are Crawford Path (you are still technically below treeline) so its about 15 minutes down to where the woods are open enough. There are several trailside spots north of Mt Pierce on the AT as you head down into the broad low area between Pierce and Eisenhower. There is a water source in the scrub as you start heading out of this area. (be aware this water is drainage from the spur trail up Eisenhower so treatment is suggested.). The AT skips the summit of Eisenhower and runs through dense scrub that technically may be "below treeline" but unless you sleep in the middle of the trail on very boney stuff you are out of luck). Once you meet back up with the northerly summit spur trail and Edmunds path there is no below treeline section of the AT until you enter the woods heading off Madison on the Osgood trail (the AT). A general comment is that from this point to the Osgood trail, if in doubt head off the AT to your left, typically the trails that go right are far less traveled, are steeper and have poorer camping options.

Edmonds path has spots to camp below the Gateway, a low stone gate that the trail goes thru. You will cross several water sources on you way down. Its about 1 mile and 1000 feet loss in elevation. Per my comment about keep left, skip the Mt Eisenhower trail to your right. From this point to the Jewell trail which is north of Lake of the Crowds there are no legal options to camp. The Ammonosuc Ravine trail that heads left at Lake of the Crowds hut is no camping within 1/4 mile of the trail almost all the way down off the ridge. I would guess 2000 feet of elevation and a couple of hours, definitely not a great idea unless you decide to bail.

After you have summited Washington and headed down to Clay your next option is go left down Jewell trail, there is usually water crossing the trail just above treeline. You will enter dense spruce/fir, in about 10 minutes you will come out to a wide spot in the trail which usually has fire ring on your right. The woods are open enough to find a spot to camp. The warning for this point is that this is very popular trail for day hikers and the woods are a popular bathroom spot, be careful where you step. This area despite being below treeline is very exposed ridge, if bad weather comes it will go right over. Its better than above treeline but it still could be a wild night. Its about 1/2 hour and 1000 feet of elevation off the AT.

The next tempting spot which is not legal is trail the to right called the Sphynx trail. There are some flat spots at the base of rocks for the first 100 yards or so. Once it starts heading down it turns into stream bed and to get to a spot where you camp is about 1.5 hours and possibly a 1500 foot drop. This is the low point on the ridge between Washington and Jefferson and the headwall of the great gulf, camping here in bad weather above treeline is definitely a really bad idea.

From the Jewell trail there is no good option until Edmonds col, the AT skips the summit of Jefferson but there is blue blaze over the top. There are no good options from the top of Jefferson, Caps Ridge despite being left off the AT is exposed and gets harder as you go down, Plan on 1.5 hours and 2000 foot loss in elevation. The Castle trail is also very exposed you will lose less elevation but its about a hour to open woods. If you take the AT around the summit, Six Husbands is probably the worse option. It is one of the steepest trail in the whites and has several r sections that must be climbed with the aid of vertical ladders. If you somehow make it down to the base, plan on losing 1500 feet of elevation.

Next good option is at Edmonds col, take the Randolph path to the RMC facilities which consist of the Perch, Gray Knob and Crag camp, The Perch is the highest and closest to the AT, Gray Knob and Crag Camp are enclosed buildings to ride out rough weather. There is charge to stay at all three but they are all strictly self service. There is no food available.

If you skip Randolph Path, Lowes Path at Thunderstorm Junction, will also take you down to the RMC facilities. Skip the Great Gully trail as it has no real shelter and is steep and rough all the ay down to the base of kings Ravine. Next option as you head into Madison Col is the Airline, I would skip it as the Valley Way is coming up very shortly, there are the Valley Way tent sites down Valley Way. about 20 minutes and probably 800 feet of elevation.

From Madison Hut you only real option north is the follow the AT down to treeline on the Osgood trail. Madison Gulf trail is steep and potentially dangerous its not an option and the Daniel Webster Scout trail is major steep drop to below treeline.

A hike from the spots just off the AT north of Mt Pierce to the Jewell trail is not an unreasonable day. The next day from Jewell to Osgood is also long but not unreasonable.

I didn't mention the illegal stealth sites along the ridge that folks use, the folks at Glencliff used to keep a reference to them. In nice weather they are tempting but still illegal. The huts do post daily forecasts so keep an eye on them so you wont be surprised by late day bad weather.

Wil
05-20-2016, 21:25
That was an extremely helpful post. If its readership were to be only responsible adults, its existence would be a great resource. I understand and applaud your motives in being helpful.

Frankly, I'd consider deleting it. There are at least a couple of spots that are likely to be totally trashed, more than they are already. People are spit.

greenpete
05-21-2016, 14:34
[QUOTE=peakbagger;2068515]After you have summited Washington and headed down to Clay your next option is go left down Jewell trail, there is usually water crossing the trail just above treeline. You will enter dense spruce/fir, in about 10 minutes you will come out to a wide spot in the trail which usually has fire ring on your right. The woods are open enough to find a spot to camp. The warning for this point is that this is very popular trail for day hikers and the woods are a popular bathroom spot, be careful where you step. This area despite being below treeline is very exposed ridge, if bad weather comes it will go right over. Its better than above treeline but it still could be a wild night. Its about 1/2 hour and 1000 feet of elevation off the AT. QUOTE]

Peakbagger, this is extremely helpful. I checked my itinerary, and I plan to reach Lake of the Clouds Hut on June 1. I would definitely stay there, but it's not open until June 3. So I'm going to try and overnight at the best place after coming off Mt. Washington, which I guess is Jewell Trail campsite? However, I don't see this trail on my AWOL guide. I see Great Gulf Trail (to the north from AT/Gulfside Trail), Westside Trail (goes to west) and Mt. Clay Loop Trail (goes to east). Does Jewell Trail go by another name maybe?

Also, I apologize for highjacking the original post of mmais66569!

mmais68569
05-21-2016, 15:49
No problem for the hi-jack it is all helping me later.
Mike

peakbagger
05-21-2016, 16:33
That's odd, the Jewell trail is a very popular trail that heads down to the base station road. The Gulfside Trail is the official AT route north of Washington. About 1000 feet north of the south junction of the Mt Clay Loop trail with the Gulfside the Jewell trail runs downhill to the left of the Gulfside (AT). Those who take the blue blaze over Mt Clay will miss this junction.

Be careful to note that the spot described on the Jewell trail is not an official campsite or tentsite, its just a wide spot in the trail with woods that have just enough canopy for a tent and the terrain is somewhat flat. It has been and still is a legal camping spot but the FS at their discretion could decide to post it no camping with absolutely no public notice beyond a sign on a tree. There is no indication that they will do so but have done this elsewhere in the whites on the ridgeline north of Liberty.

greenpete
05-22-2016, 15:28
Ok, I found a small detail map online and now see Jewell Trail, just after Mt. Clay Loop Trail. If my travel estimates stick, I'll probably overnight here June 1. Swing on up if you want, I'll buy you a beer (our share some Ramen)! :)