View Full Version : single vs double wall
squeezebox
05-22-2016, 05:57
I'm familiar with the condensation discussion about single vs double wall tents. I have experienced some condensation with cheap Xmart tents and blue tarps when car camping.
I am frustrated with the lack of info about which cottage industry tents are double or single walled. How do I find out which are single or double walled?
Another question, I don't understand what a clip in bathtub floor is about.
Thanks!! I'm sorry for being stupid, but with your help it won't last very long.
Clip in bathtub floors give you the option to not use the floor at all. Makes the shelter lighter if the floor is left at home.
what cottage industry tents are confusing you?
Pedaling Fool
05-22-2016, 06:47
I hate single wall, simply because there are nights where you need as much fresh air as possible, so I always look for a heavily screened tent and of course you need a rainfly then, so I'll always get a double-walled tent. The only exception would be a tent for Arctic conditions.
daddytwosticks
05-22-2016, 07:03
I've used several saggy sil-nylon single wall tarptents over the years. Maybe it was me, but I could never get them to keep a tight pitch. Plus I had issues with condensation also. I recently went back to a double wall semi-freestanding tent (MSR Hubba NX-1) and am very happy. Only about one pound more that similar sil-nylon tarptents. Pitches nice and tight. I can deal with the condensation easier since the fly is separae from the tent body. It's also way easier to set up/take down in the rain when using the footprint. The tarptents were fine products, but like all things in life, they had their pros and cons. :)
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tarps/HavenTarp.html?redirected=1
https://www.sixmoondesigns.com/nettents/HavenNetTent.html?redirected=1
Works well enough for my GF and I. It has a bit of a learning curve to get it set up correctly so the pitch is correct. After a few hours you do have to tighten it up if you don't want it to flap in the breeze, but you can do that from inside.
I like that I can set up the tarp and then set up the net tent, if its raining. It can be set up without the net tent or set up the net tent by itself if its nice out.
Odd Man Out
05-22-2016, 09:34
Tarp Tent uses the term double wall in the name of its products so that seems clear. I started with a SMD skyscape, which was a partial double wall because there was one panel that was one single wall. I now have a DW TT Notch. However this is still a hybrid in that the inner wall is a net tent. A lightly used tent maintains vale so you can sell one and buy another to find what works best for you. That's what i did. For a long time i was paralyzed by waiting to buy until i figured out what is best. Eventually i figured out that was a poor strategey. Variety is the spice of life.
The folks at TarpTent clearly state single or double wall models.
If not stated, look at photos. Pretty obvious if the body and rain fly are separate then it's a double wall tent.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
If the double-wall tent weight carried can be shared by two (or more) people, I am interested.
I have done this for mountaineering: long approach hike, and basecamp.
We divide the load by poles, stakes and tieouts, outer tent, inner tent. We also divide stove and food prep gear.
For ordinary winter camping, I like a tipi or a "hot tent" tipi.
For hiking, covering miles, I like lightweight tarp or tent to supplement a "cowboy camping" bivy.
I judge that tarp or tent, by quick set up (in rain, if necessary), does it have a vestibule for gear, am I protected from wind and rain (or snow) and I consider condensation last.
The last consideration, for me, is condensation because I do not have an air-tight shelter for the safety factor of having fresh air for breathing, and, my wet gear (if any) is in the vestibule, I do not have a flame inside to make moisture, and, I have a buff to cover my mouth and nose, especially when sleeping so I do mot add moisture to my sleep system or any down clothing (vest, or jacket, for example) I keep in cuben dry bags to keep dry.
The last thing, before I am ready to pack up my shelter, I "towel off" any moisture inside with a microfleece or sham-wow, I shake off excess of "dew" or rain off the exterior, and, stuff the shelter in the backpack outer mesh pocket.
If I do not have a backpack outer mesh pocket, the shelter is stuffed into a separate stuff sack inside my backpack at the top of my pack, or, rolled and held under top straps.
Other people have other strategies that work well.
From what I have seen, the strategies that work well are more important than any other consideration for a shelter, other than easy set up in rain and shedding wind and rain.
Whether I have a bathtub floor or bivy or "groundcloth" is less important than where I locate the tarp or tent or bivy shelter, in my experience. Will water collect right there? Will water runoff run right thru there? Will this ground absorbe it all or drain away from right here?
If the tent, tarp, tipi is on grass, the dew can be considerable.
I do not bivy on grass, either.
Is a pop-up or freestanding shelter staked to the ground be better, because there is so little space available for tie-outs and guy-outs not needed to stake out a free-standing shelter.
In my opinion, these are the considerations.
I may not need a actual vent if I have an open-design shelter with vestibule, or, a door double-zipper I can prop open a little at the top.
It has always been my understanding the double-wall shelter, the inner is a permeable "dew cloth" so the condensation is on the outer wall, for longer than overnight stays in the double-wall tipi or tarp or tent.
This can be especially important for the basecamp, where even cooking may, of necessity, have to be inside.
No flare-ups, mountaineering was always a dangerous proposition.
I would rather have a "hot tent" tipi, with a half way or part way "dew cloth" for the sleeping area for extended stay winter camp.
saltysack
05-22-2016, 21:31
I'm familiar with the condensation discussion about single vs double wall tents. I have experienced some condensation with cheap Xmart tents and blue tarps when car camping.
I am frustrated with the lack of info about which cottage industry tents are double or single walled. How do I find out which are single or double walled?
Another question, I don't understand what a clip in bathtub floor is about.
Thanks!! I'm sorry for being stupid, but with your help it won't last very long.
You need a dog proof tent!
Perhaps if you told us which cottage industry tents that you can't figure out we might be able to help.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
If it's the cottage tent I'm guessing, Franco will be along any minute.
You can pretty much tell the difference by weight alone. Single wall are unusually light and have minimal poles, whereas double wall weigh a couple pounds more, and include a larger set of poles.
My take is that single wall are OK if you are lucky with weather. OTOH, double wall are nice if you are in cold weather, continual rain, or storms.
The Cleaner
05-24-2016, 21:16
Here is a pic of my TarpTent Moment DW.34931 You can see that the inner tent is about 90% fabric with a mesh vent near the top.Any tent that has mostly mesh for the inner tent is not a true double wall tent.In certain conditions any tent can experience condensation problems.When your tent has a solid inner tent this will protect you from some if not all condensation problems.I do mostly cold weather camping. Tents with mesh for the inner tent or some tents which are just a tarp with some mesh to keep the bugs out depend on ventilation to vent out condensation.When it's 20* outside you don't need too much air moving through your tent unless you have a winter bag or like sleeping with everything you have on.Last January I was camped north of Hot Springs and the temp went down to 25*.It was almost 10* warmer in my tent and water in my Platypus container only had a thin layer of ice on it which was in the tent's vestibule.From experience I learned that an MSR Hubba is not a tent for cold weather.I had one and sold it.Many months of the year you can have cold winds and tents with mesh inner walls offer little protection from winds.On the other side if you are a warm weather camper some double wall tents will be too warm.
I'm sorry. It's way past time for me to say this.
Mesh does not make a double wall tent. Period.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
daddytwosticks
05-25-2016, 07:13
Here is a pic of my TarpTent Moment DW.34931 You can see that the inner tent is about 90% fabric with a mesh vent near the top.Any tent that has mostly mesh for the inner tent is not a true double wall tent.In certain conditions any tent can experience condensation problems.When your tent has a solid inner tent this will protect you from some if not all condensation problems.I do mostly cold weather camping. Tents with mesh for the inner tent or some tents which are just a tarp with some mesh to keep the bugs out depend on ventilation to vent out condensation.When it's 20* outside you don't need too much air moving through your tent unless you have a winter bag or like sleeping with everything you have on.Last January I was camped north of Hot Springs and the temp went down to 25*.It was almost 10* warmer in my tent and water in my Platypus container only had a thin layer of ice on it which was in the tent's vestibule.From experience I learned that an MSR Hubba is not a tent for cold weather.I had one and sold it.Many months of the year you can have cold winds and tents with mesh inner walls offer little protection from winds.On the other side if you are a warm weather camper some double wall tents will be too warm.
The newer MSR Hubba has a fabric inner that goes about half way us the sides. This minimizes drafts just like your Moment. :)
Turtle-2013
05-25-2016, 07:54
When I saw this thread I thought maybe it would answer MY question ... but alas except that Connie a couple others got close it seemed to talk around the issue on my mind. So let me ask it more directly and see if someone has answers based on real experience rather than opinion. I have been looking at the newer single wall tents made out of breathable fabric and wondering if they function about the same as rain gear made out of the similar fabrics. What I mean by that is this ... my breathable rain-coat will ALWAYS keep me dry if I hold still, but if I'm hiking it can't always keep up with the moisture I'm producing inside of it, especially if it is actively raining or very humid (which is obviously when I usually wear it) ... SO ... will the breathable, single wall tents keep up with a light load (as in one person in a two person tent), but not a heavier load of moisture. Will they keep up if it is less humid but not high humidity (like the southern Appalachian Mountains). ETC. ETC.
Please note, I have a great deal of experience with single wall and double wall tents, starting with canvas and almost every other fabric used over the last 50 years. Currently, I use a tarp-tent of my own design that is so open, that the issues of "breathability" aren't even relevant. I'm also not interested in splitting hairs about whether a mesh wall is a "true inner wall" (while I have an opinion, I'm not going to wade into that particular black-hole). What I want is real-world experience about how breathable the newer breathable tent fabrics are.
My research is not for my use but for a couple young friends and I have been specifically looking at the BD tents, the FirstLight and Hilight as single wall breathable tents..... and contrasting them to the Mesa which is a double wall tent where the upper part of the inner wall is mesh for maximum air flow. HOWEVER, I would be interested in real-world experience with any other single wall breathable fabric tents as well.
Here are links to all three tents I mentioned.....
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/firstlight-tent-BD810151WASAALL1.html#start=5
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/hilight-tent-BD810173WASAALL1.html#start=6
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/mesa-tent-BD810190MGFRALL1.html#start=3
Thank you for any input.....
I'm sorry. It's way past time for me to say this.
Mesh does not make a double wall tent. Period.
What does, in your opinion?
What does, in your opinion?
Uncoated ripstop nylon with covered mesh windows and doors. Like all tents were built before cost cutting measures ruined them.
Look at the Hilleberg tents.
Wayne
soumodeler
05-25-2016, 08:47
Uncoated ripstop nylon with covered mesh windows and doors. Like all tents were built before cost cutting measures ruined them.
Look at the Hilleberg tents.
Wayne
Cost cutting or weight saving?:-?
Cost cutting. The public fell for the slight weight reduction and the mythical increase in ventilation. "Misting" is the undesirable new feature.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
soumodeler
05-25-2016, 10:14
I would call a weight reduction from 6-8lbs to less than 2 more than "slight". However, I do agree with you that there are trade offs like misting with newer lighter tents (that can cost significantly more than what tents used to cost).
saltysack
05-25-2016, 11:09
Cost cutting. The public fell for the slight weight reduction and the mythical increase in ventilation. "Misting" is the undesirable new feature.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
Sounds like A/C for your tent!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Pedaling Fool
05-25-2016, 12:11
When I saw this thread I thought maybe it would answer MY question ... but alas except that Connie a couple others got close it seemed to talk around the issue on my mind. So let me ask it more directly and see if someone has answers based on real experience rather than opinion. I have been looking at the newer single wall tents made out of breathable fabric and wondering if they function about the same as rain gear made out of the similar fabrics. What I mean by that is this ... my breathable rain-coat will ALWAYS keep me dry if I hold still, but if I'm hiking it can't always keep up with the moisture I'm producing inside of it, especially if it is actively raining or very humid (which is obviously when I usually wear it) ... SO ... will the breathable, single wall tents keep up with a light load (as in one person in a two person tent), but not a heavier load of moisture. Will they keep up if it is less humid but not high humidity (like the southern Appalachian Mountains). ETC. ETC.
Please note, I have a great deal of experience with single wall and double wall tents, starting with canvas and almost every other fabric used over the last 50 years. Currently, I use a tarp-tent of my own design that is so open, that the issues of "breathability" aren't even relevant. I'm also not interested in splitting hairs about whether a mesh wall is a "true inner wall" (while I have an opinion, I'm not going to wade into that particular black-hole). What I want is real-world experience about how breathable the newer breathable tent fabrics are.
My research is not for my use but for a couple young friends and I have been specifically looking at the BD tents, the FirstLight and Hilight as single wall breathable tents..... and contrasting them to the Mesa which is a double wall tent where the upper part of the inner wall is mesh for maximum air flow. HOWEVER, I would be interested in real-world experience with any other single wall breathable fabric tents as well.
Here are links to all three tents I mentioned.....
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/firstlight-tent-BD810151WASAALL1.html#start=5
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/hilight-tent-BD810173WASAALL1.html#start=6
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/mesa-tent-BD810190MGFRALL1.html#start=3
Thank you for any input.....
Disclaimer: I haven't used the latest technology in breathable single-wall tents, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they will be less desirable to a mesh wall tent on those humid, breeze-less nights and a mesh tent would definitely be more desirable on those warm nights, but with some breeze.
If they could make a magical breathable fabric, then it wouldn't be on just single-wall tents, but also on shoes, shirts, pants, socks, raincoats... The fact is that nothing breathes better than naked skin and yet bare skin can still be fairly laden down with moisture on warm evenings.
At least that's my take, but I'll be interested to see what other have to say...
squeezebox
06-03-2016, 20:20
Hey! I like dogs. I love my son's dog. I'm looking for my next dog. I will not go into my issues about dogs on the trail.
saltysack
06-03-2016, 22:19
Hey! I like dogs. I love my son's dog. I'm looking for my next dog. I will not go into my issues about dogs on the trail.
Thx
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
MuddyWaters
06-04-2016, 07:19
When I saw this thread I thought maybe it would answer MY question ... but alas except that Connie a couple others got close it seemed to talk around the issue on my mind. So let me ask it more directly and see if someone has answers based on real experience rather than opinion. I have been looking at the newer single wall tents made out of breathable fabric and wondering if they function about the same as rain gear made out of the similar fabrics. What I mean by that is this ... my breathable rain-coat will ALWAYS keep me dry if I hold still, but if I'm hiking it can't always keep up with the moisture I'm producing inside of it, especially if it is actively raining or very humid (which is obviously when I usually wear it) ... SO ... will the breathable, single wall tents keep up with a light load (as in one person in a two person tent), but not a heavier load of moisture. Will they keep up if it is less humid but not high humidity (like the southern Appalachian Mountains). ETC. ETC.
Please note, I have a great deal of experience with single wall and double wall tents, starting with canvas and almost every other fabric used over the last 50 years. Currently, I use a tarp-tent of my own design that is so open, that the issues of "breathability" aren't even relevant. I'm also not interested in splitting hairs about whether a mesh wall is a "true inner wall" (while I have an opinion, I'm not going to wade into that particular black-hole). What I want is real-world experience about how breathable the newer breathable tent fabrics are.
My research is not for my use but for a couple young friends and I have been specifically looking at the BD tents, the FirstLight and Hilight as single wall breathable tents..... and contrasting them to the Mesa which is a double wall tent where the upper part of the inner wall is mesh for maximum air flow. HOWEVER, I would be interested in real-world experience with any other single wall breathable fabric tents as well.
Here are links to all three tents I mentioned.....
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/firstlight-tent-BD810151WASAALL1.html#start=5
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/hilight-tent-BD810173WASAALL1.html#start=6
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/tents-and-bivys/mesa-tent-BD810190MGFRALL1.html#start=3
Thank you for any input.....
No thanks
Those single wall tents in breatheable fabric are really for winter use. In hard rain, wetted out, dirty, or where something touches, they will leak. Just like a breatheable jacket .
Pick your poision
All breatheable fabrics.....leak. every last one. Even goretex. They depend on surface tension of water to work, but that can be compromised.
Even if didnt, it takes a vapor concentration difference to drive water vapor thru fabric. When its humid on the outside, like in warm rain, breatheability is .....nil. and you get condensation. Its really all a big marketing scam.
Tipi Walter
06-04-2016, 07:55
Uncoated ripstop nylon with covered mesh windows and doors. Like all tents were built before cost cutting measures ruined them.
Look at the Hilleberg tents.
Wayne
Totally agree. Back in the "old" days---1970s---all backpacking tents were 4 season with no unsealable mesh. You could buy any North Face tent for instance and have something that worked all year long. And no blasted mesh along the floor perimeter (useless) and no inner tent mesh sides or roofs etc.
No thanks
Those single wall tents in breatheable fabric are really for winter use. In hard rain, wetted out, dirty, or where something touches, they will leak. Just like a breatheable jacket .
You are correctamundo! Two of Turtle-2013's examples are Black Diamond single walls, the Firstlight and the Hilight. Negatory!! Do this test: Use it on a 3 day trip in a 3 day cold October rain and then we'll talk.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpacking2008/Backpacking-with-the-Integral/i-7KbPrKg/0/L/Trip%2087%20010-L.jpg
I did a 4 day trip into the Bald River wilderness of TN and got caught in a 4 day cold December rainstorm whereby my top of the line Integral Designs MK3 tent had 9 separate leaks allowing water to come inside and compromise my down bag. MuddyWaters is right, these types of tents are made for small alpine ledges in deep snow and cold temps---not for Southeast winters with nonstop 35F rainstorms.
A leaking tent is a useless tent.
HeartFire
06-04-2016, 09:30
I just looked at the link for these tents. I wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw them. The first link says it's a 'single layer fabric' - this means that the breathable membrane is exposed on the inside of the tent, if the membrane gets damaged (from you touching the walls, it will end up leaking. If the membrane gets dirty, it will leak. the specs say
"Extremely water-resistant boasting the highest water column rating of any breathable, single-layer fabric. "
It is water resistant - not water proof, and it doesn't say what the waterproof rating is - 'the highest column of any breathable , single layer fabric' means nothing at all, what is that rating. If it was so good, they would probably advertise the number.
I've always said, "Waterproof - Breathable" is an oxymoron.