View Full Version : Permithrin Treating...
What should be treated/soaked in Permithrin and what should not? I did read the bottle, and it seemed to say it was safe enough for mammals, but it warn against direct contact with skin until fully dry. So what happens when you sweat like a pig and soak it again? So far, I have drenched my tent(outside only), my pack(outside only), and my boots. I am about to do my clothes, but before I go hog wild, I thought I'd ask the general population. Do you go as far as underwear, or just the outer most layer? Are socks ok? Is it ok to drench my pup? She's a 8 month old Texas Heeler.
Any advice and/or stories of experience would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.:)
Sprout78
05-23-2016, 11:05
I sent my clothing away to have it treated for the following reasons:
1. The repellent lasts longer (70 washes)
2. It is treated in a contained environment, which is better for me and the environment
3. It guarantees even coverage over all clothing
They do everything but undergarments (underwear). I sent my trail clothing away, and they took care of this process (including shipping time) within 10 days. The process was very painless. There are excellent reviews about this company from Appalachian Trail thru-hikers who watched other people struggle with bugs on the trail, but didn't have problems themselves.
Here is the link:
http://www.insectshield.com/IS_Your_Own_Clothes/default.aspx
Happy trails!
Red Cinema
05-23-2016, 11:18
I treat my stuff at home. I don't do any fabric into which I will sweat copiously; personal preference. I know others treat everything they wear. FWIW,
Offshore
05-23-2016, 13:01
What should be treated/soaked in Permithrin and what should not? I did read the bottle, and it seemed to say it was safe enough for mammals, but it warn against direct contact with skin until fully dry. So what happens when you sweat like a pig and soak it again? So far, I have drenched my tent(outside only), my pack(outside only), and my boots. I am about to do my clothes, but before I go hog wild, I thought I'd ask the general population. Do you go as far as underwear, or just the outer most layer? Are socks ok? Is it ok to drench my pup? She's a 8 month old Texas Heeler.
Any advice and/or stories of experience would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.:)
Its not that dermal contact is particularly dangerous, its that its not an effective pesticide when applied to the skin (e.g., not shown to be effective or registered as a dermally-applied insecticide). Once its applied and dried, its fine even if you do sweat. I treat my shirt, pants, socks, shoes and pack (putting the pack down and then putting it back on is one way to transfer ticks). I never did underwear, but I did notice that InsectShield, the company that treats clothing for manufacturers (as well as for individuals who send theirs in) will now treat underwear. I've gone to buying InsectShield clothing and sending my existing clothing in for "permanent" treatment (~$10/item). Its just easier than spraying and waiting to dry and it lasts for 70 washings - effectively the expected life of the garment. I still spray my shoes and pack. I can't comment on spraying your dog - talk to your vet or read the instructions very carefully. It is deadly to cats until its dry.
Offshore
05-23-2016, 13:05
I sent my clothing away to have it treated for the following reasons:
1. The repellent lasts longer (70 washes)
2. It is treated in a contained environment, which is better for me and the environment
3. It guarantees even coverage over all clothing
They do everything but undergarments (underwear). I sent my trail clothing away, and they took care of this process (including shipping time) within 10 days. The process was very painless. There are excellent reviews about this company from Appalachian Trail thru-hikers who watched other people struggle with bugs on the trail, but didn't have problems themselves.
Here is the link:
http://www.insectshield.com/IS_Your_Own_Clothes/default.aspx
Happy trails!
They just recently removed the underwear restriction. When I sent clothing to them in March, they specifically excluded underwear in their list. In the last month, I know of people who sent underwear in to be treated with no objection from InsectShield.
I highly recommend them - I especially like how they applied InsectShield labels to my stuff so I know what was treated and what was not. This was probably due to some regulation since the clothing technically becomes a pesticide so needs to show an EPA registration number, but still a convenient plus.
hikernutcasey
05-23-2016, 13:13
Personally I just spread my stuff out in the driveway and spray them down. I spray everything I will be wearing except for underwear including my shoes. It must work as I've never found a tick on me after I started using the stuff.
Wish I had more time. I would definitely be going the send-off route. Alas, I am heading out on Friday, so I am doing the "spray at home in your basement" route. I guess really the only question is the under-roos. I wonder why they didn't do those before and if they are doing them now, why? I can ask that on their website though, not here. I do know the stuff is toxic to cats when wet, but doe snot have the same effect on dogs or other mammals, according to the label. They actually put this stuff in those dog flea collars. I think she will be fine, but I think I will actually call the Permithrin company and ask to be sure. I just don't want her getting eaten up, especially since she will be sleeping in my tent with me and very likely in my sleeping bag too!
bigcranky
05-23-2016, 14:40
I spray my long johns bottoms and my long sleeve wool top, both of which I wear while sleeping. I don't wear underwear on the trail, but I spray my shorts inside-out, and my socks, and my wool hiking t-shirt. Haven't had tick problems since we started doing this.
Snowleopard
05-23-2016, 14:51
The US military uses permethrin on clothes and time release DEET (e.g., Ultrathon brand) on exposed skin. In their documents they say don't treat underwear and head bands, so I don't. I do spray the outside of hats. I've been leaning towards using Insectshield clothes. I spray shoes and socks. If you don't wear long pants and long sleeve shirts, use Ultrathon on legs and arms. For mosquitos and black flies, bring a headnet. Once the permethrin is dry, it's bonded to the fabric and not much will be absorbed by your skin.
I wouldn't spray the dog with permethrin. On humans, and I assume on dogs, the spray deactivates quickly on skin. There are better treatments for dogs that can't be used by humans ( collars, Front Line, etc.); ask a vet or pet store.
Offshore
05-23-2016, 15:44
The US military uses permethrin on clothes and time release DEET (e.g., Ultrathon brand) on exposed skin. In their documents they say don't treat underwear and head bands, so I don't. I do spray the outside of hats. I've been leaning towards using Insectshield clothes. I spray shoes and socks. If you don't wear long pants and long sleeve shirts, use Ultrathon on legs and arms. For mosquitos and black flies, bring a headnet. Once the permethrin is dry, it's bonded to the fabric and not much will be absorbed by your skin.
I wouldn't spray the dog with permethrin. On humans, and I assume on dogs, the spray deactivates quickly on skin. There are better treatments for dogs that can't be used by humans ( collars, Front Line, etc.); ask a vet or pet store.
I remember reading somewhere (possibly on the Sawyer or tickencounter.org website) that the reason that the military doesn't treat undergarments is that they felt it isn't needed due to the outer uniform being treated, so it was a cost rather than a safety issue. As far as headbands, that's odd as both Buff and ExOffico offer InsectShield treated buffs designed to be used as headwear.
Snowleopard
05-23-2016, 17:21
I remember reading somewhere (possibly on the Sawyer or tickencounter.org website) that the reason that the military doesn't treat undergarments is that they felt it isn't needed due to the outer uniform being treated, so it was a cost rather than a safety issue. As far as headbands, that's odd as both Buff and ExOffico offer InsectShield treated buffs designed to be used as headwear. That could well be; the documents I saw did not give a reason for not treating undergarments. Still, I would always wear long pants on trail so I would be protected anyway.
Following up on Offshore's recollection gets some interesting articles:
http://www.tickencounter.org/prevention/permethrin
How safe is Permethrin and Permethrin-treated Clothing?
http://www.tickencounter.org/images/PermethrinSpray.jpgQuick Facts :
Permethrin is over 2,250 times moretoxic to ticks than humans; so just a little bit provides great protection safely.
The EPA states "...There is reasonable certainty that Permethrin-treated clothing poses no harm to infants or children".
Put directly on the skin, typically less than 1% of active ingredient is absorbed into the body; DEET can be absorbed at over 20 times that rate.
Exposure risk of Permethrin-treated clothing to toddlers is 27 times below the EPA's Level of Concern (LOC).
A 140-pound person would have no adverse health effects if exposed to 32 gms of permethrin/day.There is less than 1 gram of permethrin in an entire bottle of clothing treatment.
A 5% cream (10 times the dose) is recommended to treat children and infants with mites calledscabies.
Tickencounter.org is the University of Rhode Island and their info seems science based. It's well worth spending time browsing it.
http://www.tickencounter.org/pub/tick_repellent_clothing.pdf
http://www.tickencounter.org/research/summer_clothing
http://www.tickencounter.org/news/news_repellent_090607
http://www.tickencounter.org/news/news_repellent_images
The conclusion of the above research is that permethrin gives quite a bit of protection even when wearing treated shorts, tee shirt, socks and shoes. I'll still wear treated long sleeve shirts and long pants in the woods, but will be make sure that my shoes and socks are treated.
DON'T FORGET FOOTWEAR - Since it's deer tick nymphs that transmit Lyme disease, and since these ticks are hidden in leaf litter, having effective protection against these ticks is most important for staying safe at camp, or the backyard. Nymph ticks mostly latch on to shoes and climb up. That makes tick repellent shoes one of the best and easiest first lines of defense against Lyme disease. PERMETHRIN sprays are the best way to apply. I think that is a misstatement: adult deer ticks also transmit lyme, but it looks like treated shoes and socks make a big difference.
I treat everything that I wear. Get a big old 5 gallon bucket, mix a 2 or 3 gallon emulsion per the instructions, and dunk everything. buff, shirts, kilt, socks, underwear. Then hang on a line outside and dry it. Once dry, I rinse it once in the washer and dry on low. Can't smell it any more afterwards. Then I take the leftovers in the bucket, put in a garden sprayer and spray around the house foundation. Helps keep out ants and such. I hadn't thought of spraying shoes, thats a good point.
newtgirl
05-25-2016, 08:40
I'm a prairie ecologist, so I deal with my fair share of ticks.
For field work, I treat my boots, gaiters, and my pack (they LOVE sweaty backpacks). That's usually plenty. That being said, we only have wood ticks, which are enormous and easy to spot should they get through the defenses. In deer tick territory, I would do all my outer layers, no inner layers. If you've layered correctly, they shouldn't get to your underwear.
I've worked in permethrin-soaked clothing for years. I don't think it's had any adverse effects.
Don't spray your dog; that's not how this stuff works. It bonds to fabric. It'll wash right out. Get frontline (which can't be used on people; I've asked!).
I treat all of my gear, except for undershorts, every year at the beginning of the season. I use the Martins 10% solution w/o petroleum distillates and cut it 19:1 to get it down to the 0.5% recommended solution. I start with a tad less than 1.5 gallons of warm water and add 10 oz. of the permethrin. All of my outer wear gets a dunking then I wring them out and hang them to dry.
Don't forget to treat your pack too. I use a sock. I saturate it in the solution and squeeze/blot my packs and shoes.
And remember to use gloves. A cheap pair of dish washing gloves from the dollar store will do.
It sucks to have Lyme and the treatment is no fun either. All of this prep is worth it.
Oh! I also take some of the left over solution and wipe down the window screens in the house. Just remember to keep cats away from this stuff while it's wet.
What we have done so far is to get the spray bottle and just spray all of our outer clothing except underwear, including boots and socks, packs, dog's pack, tent (outside only), and tent footprint. We didn't dilute it at all. Just sprayed it right from the bottle onto our stuff and thoroughly drenched everything. Just pinned it up on rigged clothesline and let it dry. Is that concentration too strong? Should we wash or rinse our clothes before wearing them? We read the bottle and it didn't mention any dilution advise. ??:eek::-?
What we have done so far is to get the spray bottle and just spray all of our outer clothing except underwear, including boots and socks, packs, dog's pack, tent (outside only), and tent footprint. We didn't dilute it at all. Just sprayed it right from the bottle onto our stuff and thoroughly drenched everything. Just pinned it up on rigged clothesline and let it dry. Is that concentration too strong? Should we wash or rinse our clothes before wearing them? We read the bottle and it didn't mention any dilution advise. ??:eek::-?
Permethrin , as mentioned by Perrito, should be diluted to approximately 0.5 % ....
The bottle I bought was already 10% and so diluting it by 1 in 20 brings it down to 0.5 %.
Check the concentration on the bottle just to be sure.
I almost went 5% only to realize it is 0.5 %, a tenth of my original estimate!
Safe travels!
Permethrin , as mentioned by Perrito, should be diluted to approximately 0.5 % ....
The bottle I bought was already 10% and so diluting it by 1 in 20 brings it down to 0.5 %.
Check the concentration on the bottle just to be sure.
I almost went 5% only to realize it is 0.5 %, a tenth of my original estimate!
Safe travels!
So now that I have already soaked everything at 100% of the bottle contents, with no dilution, now what? Do I wash my stuff to knock it down a tad? Has anyone ever used it without diluting it? I will call the permithrin people and ask them, but if anyone has any experience with using it straight from the spray bottle it comes in, I would be very interested in hearing the results of that.
Did you use Sawyers? The 10% stuff doesn't come in a spray bottle.
Yes, it was Sawyers, bought at Dick's in a spray bottle. I would think anything so strong to require dilution would come in a bottle with a cap, to better facilitate the mixing, not a pump sprayer.
buckeye49
05-25-2016, 16:59
Sawyer's website says nothing about diluting, they have a video showing it being sprayed directly onto clothing.
buckeye49
05-25-2016, 17:04
The website also says the bottles contain .5% permethrin.
Phew! So the end this silly thread... THANK YOU all for your comments and for not blasting me for not going on to the website myself. I did read the bottle directions, but all the dilution talk made me second guess myself. Thanks for all your help. :banana
This may have been posted before but the Dollar General sells a product called Hot Shot which is a .5% permethrin solution in a spray bottle for $3.50. It's advertised to protect against ticks, lice and some other critter. As far as I can see it's the same as the Sawyer spray just a hell of a lot cheaper. I'm not sure if it's sold in regular grocery type stores.
This may have been posted before but the Dollar General sells a product called Hot Shot ...
Interesting. I'll have to stop in there and check this out. Thanx for the tip.
The Old Chief
06-03-2016, 11:09
On Tuesday, May 31st I sent 4 garments ( 2 shirts, 1 pant, and 1 short) to Insectshield in Greensboro for treatment. I got the treated items back about an hour ago June 3rd. Included in the box was a coupon for 15% off any Insectshield product. Excellent service. Now we'll see if it works!
Snowleopard
06-03-2016, 11:25
On Tuesday, May 31st I sent 4 garments ( 2 shirts, 1 pant, and 1 short) to Insectshield in Greensboro for treatment. I got the treated items back about an hour ago June 3rd. Included in the box was a coupon for 15% off any Insectshield product. Excellent service. Now we'll see if it works!
Thanks for that info 'The Old Chief'. I was expecting that they would take weeks. With luck, maybe we can send it away on Monday and get it back before the next weekend.
Whiskey_Richard
06-03-2016, 17:37
On Monday may 30th I sent 10 items to insect shield (socks,buff,shirts,pants, and shorts) they will not receive until today(ground shipping) got volume discount was $80ish including return shipping. Can't wait to get back. I'm in nwga
FreeGoldRush
06-04-2016, 10:38
The Sawyer stuff works really good in my experience. I can also confirm meeting some Lyme disease patients and hearing their stories. You definitely don't want Lyme disease.
This may have been posted before but the Dollar General sells a product called Hot Shot which is a .5% permethrin solution in a spray bottle for $3.50. It's advertised to protect against ticks, lice and some other critter. As far as I can see it's the same as the Sawyer spray just a hell of a lot cheaper. I'm not sure if it's sold in regular grocery type stores.
Alas, I am heading out on Friday, so I am doing the "spray at home in your basement" route.
I'd do it outside on a still day or at least stay upwind when spraying.
pilgrimskywheel
06-05-2016, 11:32
WARNING: My hiking partner in 2012 treated ALL her gear with this stuff and two weeks out had a RARE but violent skin reaction which made her VERY ill and sent her home for almost a month. She had purchased her gear at REI or would've been out of the GAME. This occurs in like 1% of 1% of the population however, when it happens it causes poison ivy like rashes, burning, swelling, nausea, and mild respiratory distress. Best test it out on something old for the first time before you paint your brand new Big Agnes with the stuff.
Offshore
06-05-2016, 12:32
WARNING: My hiking partner in 2012 treated ALL her gear with this stuff and two weeks out had a RARE but violent skin reaction which made her VERY ill and sent her home for almost a month. She had purchased her gear at REI or would've been out of the GAME. This occurs in like 1% of 1% of the population however, when it happens it causes poison ivy like rashes, burning, swelling, nausea, and mild respiratory distress. Best test it out on something old for the first time before you paint your brand new Big Agnes with the stuff.
Good advice, but she actually returned her gear to REI due to something that she did to it? How was this REI's responsibility by any stretch of the imagination? If anything, it would be the permethrin manufacturer's responsibility if there was no general warning on the label, but ultimately it was her responsibility to test this beforehand.
Wise Old Owl
06-05-2016, 16:17
WARNING: My hiking partner in 2012 treated ALL her gear with this stuff and two weeks out had a RARE but violent skin reaction which made her VERY ill and sent her home for almost a month. She had purchased her gear at REI or would've been out of the GAME. This occurs in like 1% of 1% of the population however, when it happens it causes poison ivy like rashes, burning, swelling, nausea, and mild respiratory distress. Best test it out on something old for the first time before you paint your brand new Big Agnes with the stuff.
Thank You - your post stood out... everyone needs to follow directions or send the clothing out. More is not better. These products have been heavily tested by manufactures, tested by the FDA, & registered over time by the EPA for your personal saftey.... if too many show up in a hospital - the EPA revises their findings and continues to restrict access to the general public.
From my own personal experience I followed the directions for Sawyer spray and then went ahead and did a "double layer on a sunny day and it dried on the hammock bottom really nice... a month later on a hot sweaty night I soaked in the product on my back and paid for it for a month... the itch that kept on giving... no regrets... just be careful folks. No way in hell would I do my underwear. Even after that personal post about ticks, -in the wrong place... if anyone remembers.
I have never had a problem with permethrin and I've been using it for years. In the Army, we used to spray it on our clothing like insect repellent. After a few weeks, someone actually read the direction on the can...oops. Never had any adverse effects from it, as far as I know. Everyone is different and most people are probably reacting to the carrier solution. Some of it is petroleum solvent based.
Wise Old Owl
06-05-2016, 18:28
WARNING: My hiking partner in 2012 treated ALL her gear with this stuff and two weeks out had a RARE but violent skin reaction which made her VERY ill and sent her home for almost a month. She had purchased her gear at REI or would've been out of the GAME. This occurs in like 1% of 1% of the population however, when it happens it causes poison ivy like rashes, burning, swelling, nausea, and mild respiratory distress. Best test it out on something old for the first time before you paint your brand new Big Agnes with the stuff.
Thank You - your post stood out... everyone needs to follow directions or send the clothing out. More is not better. These products have been heavily tested by manufactures, tested by the FDA, & registered over time by the EPA for your personal saftey.... if too many show up in a hospital - the EPA revises their findings and continues to restrict access to the general public.
From my own personal experience I followed the directions for Sawyer spray and then went ahead and did a "double layer on a sunny day and it dried on the hammock bottom really nice... a month later on a hot sweaty night I soaked in the product on my back and paid for it for a month... the itch that kept on giving... no regrets... just be careful folks. No way in hell would I do my underwear. Even after that personal post about ticks, -in the wrong place... if anyone remembers.
pilgrimskywheel
06-05-2016, 21:25
Your welcome for the info! Just because something never hurt you doesn't mean it can't. As you'll recall DDT, Agent Orange, and cocaine were all thought to be harmless - even good for you - just like cigarettes and bacon. In fact, prometherwhatever is still on the the suspected ingredient list of the chemical compound thought to cause Gulf War Syndrome. (A nasty little killer which Gulf Stormers actually brought home and unwittingly spread to their loved ones.) When airborne petroleum, sun tan lotion, insect repellent, and camo face paint keeps it all in skin contact for extended periods: GWS. Clearly if the Hell spawn insects loose on earth to punish hikers for their zero days drunk don't like it - you may want to give serious thought to marinating your bod in it. Just saying.
With regard to REI. AKA: "Return Everything Incorporated". They used to return everything WITHOUT receipts. They still have a very generous return system which they understand breeds loyalty. Only problem - there really aren't any REI stores near the AT. And yes, despite being only anecdotally relevant to this thread, they happily swapped out "Berries" treated gear for new stuff and she never gets gear anywhere else.
Offshore
06-06-2016, 05:21
With regard to REI. AKA: "Return Everything Incorporated". They used to return everything WITHOUT receipts. They still have a very generous return system which they understand breeds loyalty. Only problem - there really aren't any REI stores near the AT. And yes, despite being only anecdotally relevant to this thread, they happily swapped out "Berries" treated gear for new stuff and she never gets gear anywhere else.
You were the one that brought up the fact that your pal returned it all (despite it being their fault that they were didn't follow the very clear instructions). If either of you had read the label further, you'd have found out that a few washings or a couple of days on a line in the sun in all likelihood would have removed or degraded enough active/inactive ingredients to eliminate the problem. But it was probably easier to go run to REI and cry foul. This is the kind of chump move that makes me glad they tightened the return policy.
pilgrimskywheel
06-06-2016, 19:12
You are correct Sir. Yet another astute observation. I'm hoping this information actually helped neophyte hikers, and was in no way a total waste of time in being pointlessly combative. As yet another anecdotal aside: I find name calling terrifically small. How do your last comments help anyone? Next time I recommend "nanner nanner boo boo!" as an equally relevant and more expedient reply.
Offshore
06-06-2016, 20:16
You are correct Sir. Yet another astute observation. I'm hoping this information actually helped neophyte hikers, and was in no way a total waste of time in being pointlessly combative. As yet another anecdotal aside: I find name calling terrifically small. How do your last comments help anyone? Next time I recommend "nanner nanner boo boo!" as an equally relevant and more expedient reply.
The lessons here are 1.) Always read directions when it comes to use of pesticides to avoid dermal (and evidently possible neural) injury. 2.) Take responsibility for your own mistakes and don't go whining to manufacturers or vendors to clean up your mess.
I'm back from the trip and I will say that we did not treat our underwear or the dog. I had not one tick on me the whole weekend. My husband saw 3 ticks on him at different times, but they were all moving and nothing attached. My dog was on "Program" and had about a dozen or more ticks attach on her, but when we got home, they were all still attached but dead. They just washed right off, dead as they could be. So the end result is that it all worked perfectly. When I make plans for my next overnighter in the summer, which I may not do until late August or September, just because I hate snakes and all the bugs and humidity and heat, I will probably send my stuff off for treatment. That just seems easiest, but I had no issue with the stuff we treated ourselves in the basement. Yay Permithrin!!! That's good stuff.
This addressed some of my concerns.
https://sawyer.com/products/permethrin-premium-insect-repellent/
This addressed some of my concerns.
https://sawyer.com/products/permethrin-premium-insect-repellent/
BTW...you have to click on the FAQs.
RoamingGentile
06-13-2016, 07:42
I bought the Sawyer's stuff. I'll be treating all of my stuff soon with it.
Sarcasm the elf
06-13-2016, 08:38
I had five pieces of clothing treated by insectshield this spring. Been using them for a couple of weeks. So far I am quite happy with them.
They charged about $10 per garment for an application that lasts the garment's life, it may even be cheaper than treating it myself.
Puddlefish
06-13-2016, 19:25
I treated before starting the trail, and picked up another bottle in Damascus to retreat. In hindsight, I probably could have skipped the pre-trail treatment as I started in early April and didn't really see any bugs until after Damascus in June.
cmoulder
06-14-2016, 06:30
On the Sawyer spray bottle it says "Clothing should be retreated after 42 days or after the sixth laundering to maintain adequate protection."
I take this to mean that even if you don't wear the treated clothing that the permethrin potency is inadequate after 6 weeks.35228
So what's the deal with this stuff and how long does it work in reality? That's some pretty expensive brew if it lasts only 6 weeks.
Lasts six weeks if it's worn. Sunlight degrades permethrin. I found it lasts a season, or two. I only treat my clothing once a year. I've used sawyer's and Martins concentrated and not noticed any difference, other than odor that fades away.
cmoulder
06-14-2016, 06:58
Ok, sounds more reasonable.
Definitely going the Martin's 10% route next time and doing it myself. :)
I plan on using the Martins 10% reduction on clothing and tent, but I have a few question who have tried this method in the past.
1) Will it work on a sylnylon tent and fly? (I'm thinking specifically for my TT Stratosphire) I know the concoction will adhere to the mesh wall, but i have concerns about the fly and bathtub flooring because it's been impregnated with silicone.
2) What about rain repellant pants, something with DWR treatment. Again, same concerns about adhering to the fabric.
Anyone have a thought or suggestion whether it will work?
Forget about applying it to silnylon. It can't soak in.
I'd give the pants a soak though. When you wash them, they obviously get wet.
https://sawyer.com/products/permethr...ect-repellent/ (https://sawyer.com/products/permethrin-premium-insect-repellent/)
I thought Sawyer repellant was chrysanthmum derrivative.
Offshore
06-14-2016, 14:57
On the Sawyer spray bottle it says "Clothing should be retreated after 42 days or after the sixth laundering to maintain adequate protection."
I take this to mean that even if you don't wear the treated clothing that the permethrin potency is inadequate after 6 weeks.35228
So what's the deal with this stuff and how long does it work in reality? That's some pretty expensive brew if it lasts only 6 weeks.
The 6 week limitation is based on photodegradation due to exposure to sunlight. So, if you treat an item and keep it in a dark closet (or as Sawyer suggests, an opaque plastic bag), it will last longer. I agree with your cost analyses - I sent a lot of clothing into InsectShield to be treated for $10 or less (depending on quantity) per item for a treatment that lasts 70 washings. Cheaper and less hassle. I still use the Sawyers for my shoes, pack and other gear though.
I had five pieces of clothing treated by insectshield this spring. Been using them for a couple of weeks. So far I am quite happy with them.
They charged about $10 per garment for an application that lasts the garment's life, it may even be cheaper than treating it myself.
If it is for the life of the garment it would be cheaper. I have used sawyers of when I travel to the developing world, (I do not like Dengue)but have had to reapply the stuff. I may need to try and send my stuff in to be treated. Thanks.
Sarcasm the elf
06-15-2016, 07:10
If it is for the life of the garment it would be cheaper. I have used sawyers of when I travel to the developing world, (I do not like Dengue)but have had to reapply the stuff. I may need to try and send my stuff in to be treated. Thanks.
I want to clarify that their claim is technically 70 washings. To me that is one in the same as the life of the garment, but since you are talking about Dengue, I thought I should post the exact claim:
How long will Insect Shield protection last?The repellency ofInsect Shield apparel is EPA-registered to last through 70 launderings$mdash; the expected lifetime of a garment. This is also well beyond the life of most performance fabric finishes commonly used in the technical-apparel industry. Insect Shield gear repellency remains effective through 6 months of exposure to weathering, or through 25 launderings for washable items.
Insect Shield products also have a long shelf life. Insect Shield-treated garments stored for ten years have shown no loss of repellent effectiveness.
http://www.insectshield.com/mobile/ourTechnology/FAQs.aspx
Turk6177
06-15-2016, 19:49
I treat all my clothes and ground cloth for my tent. It is a derivative of the chrysanthemum plant so once it dries the first time, you are good for 6 washes.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I plan on using the Martins 10% reduction on clothing and tent, but I have a few question who have tried this method in the past.
1) Will it work on a sylnylon tent and fly? (I'm thinking specifically for my TT Stratosphire) I know the concoction will adhere to the mesh wall, but i have concerns about the fly and bathtub flooring because it's been impregnated with silicone.
2) What about rain repellant pants, something with DWR treatment. Again, same concerns about adhering to the fabric.
Anyone have a thought or suggestion whether it will work?
All I know is that I drenched my Tarptent Double Moment (Just the fly) and also my ground sheet and never had a single bug of any kind on it when I got up in the morning. Had a few dead bugs on the groundsheet though, so.... My TT is seam sealed. I was at a couple of campsites that were oozing ants, but none of them got in or on my tent. I used the Permithrin spray and did it myself at home.
Wise Old Owl
06-19-2016, 10:49
Forget about applying it to silnylon. It can't soak in.
I'd give the pants a soak though. When you wash them, they obviously get wet.
You are right Sill nylon and Cuban will not take up much of the product - The thought process is to wet it, let it dry then wet it again... I personnally think that doing the tent tarp is a waste of time... but the fly and any area you come in contact with such as a hammock bottom and back is a good idea. I would not soak the pants as the crotch may present a problem when coming in contact with body sweat. Just spray the leggings.
Anybody having trouble buying the Sawyer Permethrin Insect Repellent Clothing Treatment? I saw it 2 months ago everywhere, now can't find it now that I'm ready to use it. REI & Amazon show as not available online.
Sandy of PA
06-25-2016, 18:54
I just bought a bottle at Walmart.
Offshore
06-26-2016, 06:15
Anybody having trouble buying the Sawyer Permethrin Insect Repellent Clothing Treatment? I saw it 2 months ago everywhere, now can't find it now that I'm ready to use it. REI & Amazon show as not available online.
It's available on Amazon in the 24 ounce size for $15 - even available for same day delivery.
RoamingGentile
06-27-2016, 07:47
I treated mine with Sawyer's over the week end. Should I wash them after treating them or use them as is?
Offshore
06-27-2016, 08:09
I treated mine with Sawyer's over the week end. Should I wash them after treating them or use them as is?
As long as you wait 2 - 4 hours (depending on humidity) for the Sawyers to dry, no need to wash before use
RoamingGentile
06-27-2016, 08:20
Ok thanks. I did leave them out all day about 6 hours and they were dry when I took them inside.
I treated mine with Sawyer's over the week end. Should I wash them after treating them or use them as is?
I didn't. I washed my clothes before I treated and just wore them and/or packed them when they were dry. No problem whatsoever. I am a VERY HEAVY sweater so my shirt and pants were literally soaked each evening and I still had no problem.
lilgodwin
07-17-2016, 12:47
Martin's Permethrin 10%, 32oz - 1 Quart https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00061MSS0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Qw7Ixb05FJWJF
Is this the stuff I can get to soak my clothes/gear in the 1:20 ratio? Seems like the best bang for the buck.
Thats the stuff. Be forewarned, its a bit more aromatic than sawyers. Ive had to let mine air out several days before the smell was gone.
Martin's Permethrin 10%, 32oz - 1 Quart https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00061MSS0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_Qw7Ixb05FJWJF
Is this the stuff I can get to soak my clothes/gear in the 1:20 ratio? Seems like the best bang for the buck.
Yes. I dilute it 1:11.5 to yield 0.8%, consistent with military protocol.
lilgodwin
07-17-2016, 15:52
Thanks for the tips. Would 2 bottles of this sound reasonable for a standard full set of gear and clothes? Or is one bottle plenty.
Given all that I've read, I'm planning on doing all my clothes (minus underwear), shoes, pack, and maybe the footprint and/or rain fly.
I treat everything including socks, shoes, shorts, underwear, hat, sleeping bag, mat, gloves, stocking hat, backpack (especially the straps), cover, stuff sacks, tent floor.... basically anything that is fabric. I do this a few days before leaving, making sure everything has dried. Ticks that get on you clothing will die after a couple of hours. I have found dead ticks on my shorts and even on my sleeping mat.
Only one time did I get one of those tiny deer ticks embedded and it was between my thumb and fore finger. Apparently it got on the black fabric strap of my hiking pole when I rested the pole against a tree. Now I remember to spray those straps too.
lilgodwin
07-17-2016, 16:28
Wow, thanks for that insight. What product/method/procedure do you use?
Thanks for the tips. Would 2 bottles of this sound reasonable for a standard full set of gear and clothes? Or is one bottle plenty.
Given all that I've read, I'm planning on doing all my clothes (minus underwear), shoes, pack, and maybe the footprint and/or rain fly.
I did 3 pairs of pants. Several shirts and several pair of socks last year. I still have half a bottle of the stuff that i'll use up when I start finding ticks on me again. I havent found any yet this year, but I've been touching up the night before with a bottle of sawyers, too.
Of course ymmv.
lilgodwin
07-17-2016, 18:16
Good to know. 1 bottle it is!
Wow, thanks for that insight. What product/method/procedure do you use? I hang the stuff on a clothesline in my garage and spray with the Sawyer pump spray. You should probably take some precautions against smelling or breathing the mist. It smells bad when wet but is odorless when dried. I usually end up using 1-1/2 to 2 of the large Sawyer pump containers which are roughly $15 apiece on Amazon. Look for sales in the off-season. I'm sure there are cheaper ways that require diluting concentrate in water and using a garden type tank sprayer. I just bite the bullet, pay for the 2 containers and get it done over a couple of days. I figure one trip to the Dr for a Lyme test or treatment might cost many times what the preventative treatment cost.
lilgodwin
07-17-2016, 18:59
Oh I definitely plan to do the treatment. After research, I feel very drawn to the soak method, so I plan to go that route about a week before my trip. After a month in, I may buy a spray bottle of the Sawyers stuff, or whatever brand I can find, to reapply during the 2 month trip.
Clothing labeled as Insect Shield is advertised to be good for about 70 wash cycles before it loses it's effectiveness. Does anyone know of any research on the soak your own clothing method in regard to duration of effectiveness? We'll be doing this for a SOBO next year and it would suck to hit the warm states about the time the treatment stops working...
Offshore
07-18-2016, 05:54
Clothing labeled as Insect Shield is advertised to be good for about 70 wash cycles before it loses it's effectiveness. Does anyone know of any research on the soak your own clothing method in regard to duration of effectiveness? We'll be doing this for a SOBO next year and it would suck to hit the warm states about the time the treatment stops working...
The 70 washings is considered to be the useful life of the garment, so why not just either buy InsectShield clothing or send your own to InsectShield for treatment http://www.insectshield.com/IS_Your_Own_Clothes/default.aspx ($10 or less per garment) and be done with it. Either way, its the same 70 washing effectiveness, is a lot easier than treating and retreating, and cheaper in the long run than using Sawyers (Based on $15 for 24 ounces of Sawyers spray, Sawyer's recommended 3 ounces per garment per treatment, and retreatment every 6 launderings, the cost is ~$21/garment for 66 launderings using Sawyers vs. <$10 for 70 launderings using InsectShield treat your own. The added bonus being not having to find Sawyers and retreat while on trail. Using the mix your own farm sprays will be cheaper, but I'll limit the analysis to labelled uses. Besides, most of the concentrates have petroleum based inactive ingredients and just reek. I do use Sawyers to spray shoes and gear, but the clothing I'm wearing is my primary line of defense.
Billy Goat
07-18-2016, 13:24
Go to your local farm and home or feed store and get the permethrin concentrate. It's about $65 a gallon, but it's 10% and needs to be mixed 20:1. 21 gallons of permethrin for $65 does me just fine.
Cheers,
the Goat
lilgodwin
07-18-2016, 19:04
$10/item just sounds unreasonable when it's such an easy process and for so much cheaper. I'm a fan of DIY where it's manageable with little to no skill or tools, even if some research is involved. I like being self sufficient. Saves me a LOT of money.
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2016, 19:31
Go to your local farm and home or feed store and get the permethrin concentrate. It's about $65 a gallon, but it's 10% and needs to be mixed 20:1. 21 gallons of permethrin for $65 does me just fine.
Cheers,
the Goat
From a safety stand point this is not what to do. For backpacking gear a single bottle of Sawyers for under $20 will treat tents, hammocks and clothing. Never do underwear and do use water based not oil based. Again, if you mess this up you will be miserable for a month. (FOLLOW DIRECTIONS ON THE LABEL)
By the way its sold in gallons for treating cows and horses. You are not that big.
Wise Old Owl
07-18-2016, 19:33
I hang the stuff on a clothesline in my garage and spray with the Sawyer pump spray. You should probably take some precautions against smelling or breathing the mist. It smells bad when wet but is odorless when dried. I usually end up using 1-1/2 to 2 of the large Sawyer pump containers which are roughly $15 apiece on Amazon. Look for sales in the off-season. I'm sure there are cheaper ways that require diluting concentrate in water and using a garden type tank sprayer. I just bite the bullet, pay for the 2 containers and get it done over a couple of days. I figure one trip to the Dr for a Lyme test or treatment might cost many times what the preventative treatment cost.
Please wear a face mask do not inhale.
Offshore
07-18-2016, 20:03
$10/item just sounds unreasonable when it's such an easy process and for so much cheaper. I'm a fan of DIY where it's manageable with little to no skill or tools, even if some research is involved. I like being self sufficient. Saves me a LOT of money.
Couple of flaws in your analysis. The $10/garment is a one time cost for the life of the garment. The DIY requires retreatment every 6 washings or 42 days, so based on the number of launderings criteria, you'd need to treat the garment roughly 12 times over its useful life vs. once for the $10/treatment. You'd have to get treatment costs down to $0.83 per treatment to be cost-competitive with the one time treatment. The second problem is that the permethin formulation I suspect you are using is not registered or approved for use in treating garments. Big government conspiracy theories aside, the registration and approval process for a pesticide involves demonstrating that the product (not just the active ingredient - this is a subtle but important point) is safe and effective for the proposed manner of use. There is real science behind this. Take a look at an InsectShield/No Fly Zone/Bugwear treated item and you'll see an EPA registration number (even clothing sent in for treatment comes back with this label added). This number means the clothing item itself is a pesticide and the manufacturer has demonstrated effectiveness and safety claims to be true. Even though permethrin is permethrin, the concentrate mixes designed for livestock or building treatments may contain inactive ingredients that preclude safe use for treating clothing (notice the odor differences between Sawyers and the farm grade mixes). Organic chemistry of neurotoxins is not DIY material. The third issue is I'd rather be out on a trail than in my backyard mixing, treating, waiting for clothing to dry, and worrying about safe disposal of extra mix. Really, I'm all for frugality, but it has is limits.
While attracted to the DIY method for it's simplicity and cost effectiveness, I will probably go with Offshore's recommendation of sending items in to be treated. Since my wife and I have pretty well finalized our clothing choices for the 2017 thru hike, we know what we need to treat and it comes to a total of 14 garments. $140.00 sounds like alot, but at a bit over $20 per month for proven protection, that's kind of a deal.
Offshore
07-19-2016, 10:27
While attracted to the DIY method for it's simplicity and cost effectiveness, I will probably go with Offshore's recommendation of sending items in to be treated. Since my wife and I have pretty well finalized our clothing choices for the 2017 thru hike, we know what we need to treat and it comes to a total of 14 garments. $140.00 sounds like alot, but at a bit over $20 per month for proven protection, that's kind of a deal.
The good news is that it won't be quite $140. They discount the per item price based on the number of items. Still, its one less thing to worry about on a thru - enjoy yours!
lilgodwin
07-19-2016, 10:40
While attracted to the DIY method for it's simplicity and cost effectiveness, I will probably go with Offshore's recommendation of sending items in to be treated. Since my wife and I have pretty well finalized our clothing choices for the 2017 thru hike, we know what we need to treat and it comes to a total of 14 garments. $140.00 sounds like alot, but at a bit over $20 per month for proven protection, that's kind of a deal.
I think in your situation, it makes a lot of sense to do that. I'm not completely opposed to it. It just doesn't make sense to me in my situation. Where you have your clothes 'finalized' many months in advanced, I do not. I'm certainly not that hardcore about all this. I'll be leaving in about 6-7 weeks and I'm not sure what clothes I'm taking. Will probably figure that out about 2 weeks out from the trip. Compared to so many others on here, I seem to be 'winging it'. But hey, HYOH right? [emoji1] That said, I certainly appreciate that there are those of you that are so intense about hiking the AT, and hiking in general. The knowledge floating around here is incredible. Trying to soak it all in.
lilgodwin
07-19-2016, 10:45
I think in your situation, it makes a lot of sense to do that. I'm not completely opposed to it. It just doesn't make sense to me in my situation. Where you have your clothes 'finalized' many months in advanced, I do not. I'm certainly not that hardcore about all this. I'll be leaving in about 6-7 weeks and I'm not sure what clothes I'm taking. Will probably figure that out about 2 weeks out from the trip. Compared to so many others on here, I seem to be 'winging it'. But hey, HYOH right? [emoji1] That said, I certainly appreciate that there are those of you that are so intense about hiking the AT, and hiking in general. The knowledge floating around here is incredible. Trying to soak it all in.
I meant to add, I plan on doing a 'touch up' with a spray bottle around 4-6 weeks into the hike if I find that my clothes are losing their effectiveness. Could make a nice zero day 3/4 the way into my trip to wait while everything dries.