View Full Version : has the day for satellite phones arrived
brought on by the inchworm findings (IMO this seems to be the simplest most fool proof tool she could have used), and I was in a situation that a sat phone would have made quick resolution
-sat phone/ service prices have come down - not much more now than a deluxe cell plan
- not much more weight if you already carry a cell
- cell coverage has leveled off, the areas not yet served apparently cannot make a profit for the carriers
so is the future now for those who do backcountry activities?
Starchild
05-26-2016, 19:47
A emergency locator beacon as part of a smartphone would seem to make more sense. Sat phones have problems upscaling to common usage.
SWODaddy
05-26-2016, 19:59
The Delorme InReach units are a great option if you are concerned about that. They have month-to-month plans for a little over $10 and you can email/text using the iridium network, or send an emergency/SOS signal. The key feature is confirmation that your message was sent.
Honestly though, for the specific situation you mentioned, any phone with GPS (or a compass and map) should have been sufficient for a person to see what direction they needed to go in for help.
Great idea. A guy is on trail right now. He has a device called Delorme inReach Explorer satellite His web site is follow bigfoot.com you can see exactly where he is at. I plan on getting one
Wise Old Owl
05-26-2016, 20:08
I disagree. a Sat phone may not be a smart phone but offers verbal communication from any part of the globe. Some beacons offer the same Iridium or Hughes Service much like a pager vs a phone... Do not make the mistake that a Beacon or older 121 Epirb will make provide the same quality service.
The location of a transmitting 406 beacon can be determined within approximately three miles by the first satellite pass, and to within one mile after three satellite passes. A GPS enabled 406 EPIRB's accuracy is within 100 yards of the initial alert. For a homing EPIRB, position accuracy is only 12 miles. It’s the difference between a 144 sq. mile search area vs. a 100 square meter search.http://www.boatus.org/Assets/www.boatus.org/img/equipment-rentals/epirbWorksPic5.jpg
The 406 EPIRB uses the COSPAS/SARSAT system of polar orbiting satellites which gives you worldwide coverage. In comparison to the the homing-type EPIRB transmitting on 121.5/243 MHz, the 406 MHz EPIRBs have a much greater power output. And noise interference is less, so the 406 can be more reliably detected over greater distances than most homing 121.5 EPIRBs.
What's not answered here is how long does it take for three satellites to pass over on the Epirb!
Wise Old Owl
05-26-2016, 20:10
I don't have edit and the above post was directed towards Starchild... and almost nobody really needs Satellite communication for the AT.
saltysack
05-26-2016, 20:12
Spot with pre set messages is sufficient for my extended solo trips....
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ACR ResQLink+ GPS PLB arrived today.
I won't leave home without it.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
almost nobody really needs Satellite communication for the AT.
need, as in it would not be possible to hike without it - no, of course not - but my guess is that 75% of hikers are carrying a cell, why not upgrade to sat ability for the small price difference - there is no shortage of places on the AT with spotty cell reception and as I said in the first post the carriers are no longer expanding coverage area
-for the other replies: while a spot type device would fulfill most emergency functions it means carrying 2 devices for most people
When I hike solo, I do carry a Delorme InReach, but I am loathe to use it for a rescue. I'd have to be seriously injured in order to send an SOS. Getting lost does not qualify.
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Sarcasm the elf
05-28-2016, 09:28
No, Reading an account of a tragic but completely isolated incident that happened several years ago would not not convince me that it was necessary to buy or carry an expensive satellite device any more than reading about recent bear attack in the smokies convince me that I need to start hiking with a .44 magnum. This line of thinking falls under the logical fallacy of "Misleading Vividness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_vividness)" where the emotions involved in a story can run so high that it causes a person to forget how absolutely unlikely the situation is to happen in real life.
JohnHuth
05-28-2016, 10:40
My own experience with satellite phones: I took a trip to the Marshall Islands, where we crossed between two atolls that were 150 miles apart with an outrigger canoe (with sail). There was a chance that someone would go overboard. We had a chase vessel, and I had to work out a plan to conduct a search for someone who went overboard. The US Coast Guard would take 5 hours to get a C130 there, so the only option was to devise a plan to use the chase vessel to search. So, a satellite PLB (neither SPOT nor deLorme had satellite coverage in the Marshall Islands) on the people on the outrigger. I rented an Iridium Satellite phone for the chase vessel.
The concept was something like this - if a person went overboard on the outrigger, they would activate the PLB. My wife would get a phone call from the 'command center' of the PLB calls, then phone up the satellite phone on the chase vessel with the Lat/Long coordinates. I also had a flourescent dye for the day-time, and flares for the nighttime to aid in the search for the person overboard.
The sat phone was expensive and weighed about 10 ounces. I wouldn't even contemplate having one for a hike on the AT. A SPOT would be adequate, also some sense of how to help searchers find you - e.g. camp in a clearing, build a smudge fire, blow a whistle periodically, make sure someone has a substantial amount of info on you and regular check-in times. The best defense is to always be cognizant of where you are - if you go off the trail, think about how to regain the trail, always look back so you recognize the return route, even break branches of leave markings on the ground to backtrack - etc. Common woods practices.
rocketsocks
05-28-2016, 11:41
I disagree. a Sat phone may not be a smart phone but offers verbal communication from any part of the globe. Some beacons offer the same Iridium or Hughes Service much like a pager vs a phone... Do not make the mistake that a Beacon or older 121 Epirb will make provide the same quality service.
The location of a transmitting 406 beacon can be determined within approximately three miles by the first satellite pass, and to within one mile after three satellite passes. A GPS enabled 406 EPIRB's accuracy is within 100 yards of the initial alert. For a homing EPIRB, position accuracy is only 12 miles. It’s the difference between a 144 sq. mile search area vs. a 100 square meter search.http://www.boatus.org/Assets/www.boatus.org/img/equipment-rentals/epirbWorksPic5.jpg
The 406 EPIRB uses the COSPAS/SARSAT system of polar orbiting satellites which gives you worldwide coverage. In comparison to the the homing-type EPIRB transmitting on 121.5/243 MHz, the 406 MHz EPIRBs have a much greater power output. And noise interference is less, so the 406 can be more reliably detected over greater distances than most homing 121.5 EPIRBs.
What's not answered here is how long does it take for three satellites to pass over on the Epirb!270 minutes at the most.
rocketsocks
05-28-2016, 11:44
No, Reading an account of a tragic but completely isolated incident that happened several years ago would not not convince me that it was necessary to buy or carry an expensive satellite device any more than reading about recent bear attack in the smokies convince me that I need to start hiking with a .44 magnum. This line of thinking falls under the logical fallacy of "Misleading Vividness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_vividness)" where the emotions involved in a story can run so high that it causes a person to forget how absolutely unlikely the situation is to happen in real life.Yes, and by that same logic and the assumption "the Russians are coming"...I should start packin' a howitzer, whuda they weigh?
Offshore
05-28-2016, 17:03
brought on by the inchworm findings (IMO this seems to be the simplest most fool proof tool she could have used), and I was in a situation that a sat phone would have made quick resolution
-sat phone/ service prices have come down - not much more now than a deluxe cell plan
- not much more weight if you already carry a cell
- cell coverage has leveled off, the areas not yet served apparently cannot make a profit for the carriers
so is the future now for those who do backcountry activities?
One of the articles I read (NY Times, I think) mentioned that she had a SPOT device but decided to leave it at the motel with her husband - just one of a chain of apparent errors in judgement. Tech shouldn't be used as a substitute for common sense and self-rescue skills. Its also important to understand the limitations of a technology, along with its many potential points of failure. (And to bring it if you have it.) The issue with sat phones is the network doesn't scale as rapidly and relatively inexpensively as cellular. The current sat phone lifecycle is not even at the point of where cellular was when execs had the 3 watt analogs hardwired into their cars and you could buy a fake cellular antenna for your car as a status symbol. Changing out equipment on a tower to increase bandwidth is a lot cheaper than replacing satellites - and the carriers in the US have shown little interest in building out a decent cellular network as compared to Europe and Asia. (USA! USA!)
In mountaineering, we carried a brightly colored lightweight "avalanche cord".
It was about 50' long. I am thinking some hikers should tether a brightly colored cord, for when they leave the trail.
:confused:
MuddyWaters
05-28-2016, 18:07
Doyble post
MuddyWaters
05-28-2016, 18:09
I just carried a sat phone for 3 months in middle east, required by my employer so could always contact security people. I hated it. I had 3 phones to carry, a US corporate smartphone , a local cell phone, and the sat phone. It wasnt that big, maybe 8 oz. Fit in shirt pocket. Battery lasted 3 wks or so without being on just fine before Id recharge it.
Id rather just have plb for emergency personally.
No matter what you tell yourself, you are wrong if you think a frequently used device requiring charging and maintaining has the same reliability level as plb. Its overall failure frequency will typically be an order of magnitude higher due to this. Advantages...yes. But not same reliability. If you use something, theres a good chance it can be left on and go dead.
so it looks like most opinions are that the available technology is not being used to make a practical device that would "do it all" for backcountry activity
No, Reading an account of a tragic but completely isolated incident that happened several years ago would not not convince me that it was necessary to buy or carry an expensive satellite device any more than reading about recent bear attack in the smokies convince me that I need to start hiking with a .44 magnum. This line of thinking falls under the logical fallacy of "Misleading Vividness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misleading_vividness)" where the emotions involved in a story can run so high that it causes a person to forget how absolutely unlikely the situation is to happen in real life.
wow, you certainly are able to read a lot into something to thinly veil trolling
What's not answered here is how long does it take for three satellites to pass over on the Epirb!
It's a moot point if your PLB has GPS and reports the position in its data burst to the satellite constellation. Also, many have a 121.5 signal that can be used by SAR teams to home in.
When using a GPS-compatible PLB in the continental U.S, it takes only 5 minutes to alert search-and- rescue personnel of your position.
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Sarcasm the elf
05-29-2016, 21:55
wow, you certainly are able to read a lot into something to thinly veil trolling
Didn't read much into it at all and certainly wasn't trolling. I read your original post, took it at face value, completely disagreed with it and explained why.
Vegan Packer
05-29-2016, 23:34
In my past life as a technical scuba diver and instructor, I became a survival expert, because I was often diving in places that were remote and far offshore, and because, living on the east coast of Florida, we dive in the Gulf Stream, which has the strongest prevailing ocean currents in the world, capable of sweeping a diver for an incredible distance in a short time. Every year, there are reports of divers going adrift for long periods, and some that are never found. I made it my business to make sure that I had the best chance of returning home from every trip.
I bring this up because I have written an article that was published in Advanced Diver Magazine, "Survival Planning and Equipment for the Offshore Diver," that discusses PLB technology and what it does. It is a little dated, because there are now combo units that do more than discussed, but the material is still accurate and relevant.
To bring this home to backpacking, I had been carrying a PLB on the trail, but I have made the switch to the Delorme InReach Explorer. One important advantage of this device is that you can determine that your distress call message got through. With the PLB that I was carrying, it had a stronger signal, but you had no idea if the call has been received.
The Delorme also has other advantages, such as the ability to broadcast your track, and the ability to have two way communication, even without carrying a cell phone. You can even input your route and mark waypoints, so that you can backtrack, should you somehow become lost. Of course, GPS units can do some of these things, but I like the idea of carrying less weight and having one device to do the work. I still rely on a map and compass for navigation, but it is nice to have things like this, just in case.
http://www.advanceddivermagazine.com/_PDFORDER/isfg/31.ytr/ADMIssue31.pdf
ACR ResQLink+ GPS PLB arrived today.
I won't leave home without it.
Wayne
Sent from somewhere around here.
+1
I usually hike anymore with an iPhone (for GPS navigation, topo maps, etc.) and an ACR PLB (for the possible dire emergency button push in a SAR situation).
However, other technologies are developing and worth paying attention to. When my 5-yr battery on the PLB is nearing its end, that's when I'll look at another option.
ACR has solved the battery problem?
Every ACR PLB-type device I purchased for sailing had a "dud" battery.
nsherry61
05-31-2016, 18:46
I think all electronics and SAR should be banned from all wild areas.
Then, we'd have real adventure and we would be naturally culling the less fit and improving the human race. We'd pay lowers taxes in support of SAR. Further yet, more people would be scared to go into the back country so those of us that still want to go, would have much fewer people to deal with.
Is there a down side to this plan? :-? :rolleyes: :datz
saltysack
05-31-2016, 19:10
+1
I usually hike anymore with an iPhone (for GPS navigation, topo maps, etc.) and an ACR PLB (for the possible dire emergency button push in a SAR situation).
However, other technologies are developing and worth paying attention to. When my 5-yr battery on the PLB is nearing its end, that's when I'll look at another option.
That battery replacement cost nearly as much as a new device......ridiculous! I almost bought a used one but luckily did some homework...I decided to rent instead!....plbrentals.com...cheap very easy.
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saltysack
05-31-2016, 19:11
ACR has solved the battery problem?
Every ACR PLB-type device I purchased for sailing had a "dud" battery.
Nope and nearly $150 for a battery
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MuddyWaters
05-31-2016, 22:25
150 over 5+ yrs isnt big deal.
Mine has 7 yr batt.
Again, thets the life at which, after normal amt of testing, it will still transmit for the required 24 hrs.
If you are Ok with say.. .12 hrs or so...feel free to take the battery life out to 10+ yrs.
Not smart though, but its not like milk, it doesnt go bad, just slow predictable self discharge. Since todays transmit gps coordinates, you stand a good chance of rescue with a severly compromised battery.
As I said, did ACR solve the battery problem?
Maybe I didn't make myself clear: "dud" batteries, nearly brand new ACR and a brand new ACR from the marina store, Sausalito, CA for the yacht racing season: one man overboard and one for the yacht.
Not working. Useless. Dud.
The battery on two ACR devices, one after the other, the second even more expensive, the battery was a "dud". Nothing. Non working.
I have always emphasized self-rescue: we rescued ourselves "dismasted" when other yachts in that race were dismasted and sunk.
Do you know your ACR brand device actually functions?
I see ACR touted, here in the forum, as having great features, but does it actually function? I would like to know that.
MuddyWaters
06-01-2016, 06:20
Do you know your ACR brand device actually functions?
I see ACR touted, here in the forum, as having great features, but does it actually function? I would like to know that.
Thats why they have test buttons, and some battery allowance for testing. So you can know it works. Mines not ACR, its ocean signal. 4.2 oz
35051
Operates down to -130F. Rated life (24 hrs) of all plb batteries is at -4F. Typical is 30 hrs by design.
The female hiker that died last yr in whites trying to traverse in winter maelstrom, found out that depending on rescue due to plb was poor plan B. No substitute for common sense, prudence, and choosing weather conditions carefully. After all, you cant be rescued if SAR cant reach you due to conditions. Reflection gps variance can also cause position fix issues of a mile or more in steep walled terrain.
I had two, for ocean yacht racing.
Mine tested.. a little light came on. Do you know it actually works?
I am not convinced. I like a confirmation message. Is there anything like a confirmation?
Interesting thread. I haven't considered or used a PLB type device, ever, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I've advocated for judicious carrying of phones, so it seems to me the same logic applies. In a pinch, it might work, or it might not. Are you willing to bet your life on it?
I recently read a short book/essay about bicycling that argues against the conventional wisdom on several topics. For example, the author is skeptical of helmets, while acknowledging that this is a controversial minority view. His main concern is that the helmet could lead to less caution, more risk-taking while riding. False sense of security and all that.
MuddyWaters
06-01-2016, 07:24
I had two, for ocean yacht racing.
Mine tested.. a little light came on. Do you know it actually works?
I am not convinced. I like a confirmation message. Is there anything like a confirmation?
Ill just consider the sound of a helicopter to be confirmation enough. Hopefully that never ever occurs. By the time you activate a plb, so many things should have gone wrong, that you dont care about a confirmation.
TexasBob
06-01-2016, 07:47
I had two, for ocean yacht racing.
Mine tested.. a little light came on. Do you know it actually works?
I am not convinced. I like a confirmation message. Is there anything like a confirmation?
You get a two day free trail with 406Link (http://www.406link.com/) which allows you to sent a test message and receive an email conformation that the satellites received your signal and gps location. I tested mine in the backyard and received the email in about a minute showing that it absolutely worked as advertised. So the answer to your question is YES.
Thank you.
There was no helicopter.
Of course, I think that kind of rescue is an unrealistic expectation.
We were in a YRA Division R race, San Francisco Bay and ocean. There was no rescue, except ourselves. Everyone pulled thru, for everyone involved.
I am not inexperienced. We won the Season Championship that year.
This was a tragic, isolated incident. A good map will help re-orient a misguided hiker.
booney_1
06-02-2016, 11:19
This was a tragic, isolated incident. A good map will help re-orient a misguided hiker.
Most hikers would benefit from carrying one of those small power packs that you can use to recharge your smartphone.
Especially...if you use it for your maps. A smart phone with built in GPS and the right mapping app is a very powerful tool...but only if the battery is not run down...
Another Kevin
06-02-2016, 15:48
I think all electronics and SAR should be banned from all wild areas.
Then, we'd have real adventure and we would be naturally culling the less fit and improving the human race. We'd pay lowers taxes in support of SAR. Further yet, more people would be scared to go into the back country so those of us that still want to go, would have much fewer people to deal with.
Is there a down side to this plan? :-? :rolleyes: :datz
Interesting thread. I haven't considered or used a PLB type device, ever, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I've advocated for judicious carrying of phones, so it seems to me the same logic applies. In a pinch, it might work, or it might not. Are you willing to bet your life on it?
I recently read a short book/essay about bicycling that argues against the conventional wisdom on several topics. For example, the author is skeptical of helmets, while acknowledging that this is a controversial minority view. His main concern is that the helmet could lead to less caution, more risk-taking while riding. False sense of security and all that.
I've shared this thought before, but probably should again, since the conversation is veering in this direction.
SAR is something that civilized humans do. I know that whether I want it or not, if I don't come back, they're coming for me. (I don't depend on it, but it's an ugly fact of life that if I go missing, they'll go searching.)
I can't wave them off, they're coming whatever I say, so the best I can do if it all goes pear-shaped is to make their job as easy as possible. If I'm still able to light a PLB, then they'll be able to recover my remains from a small search area, with a much smaller team, and much less hazard exposure. The dangerous, expensive and time-consuming part of SAR is the search, not the rescue. With a PLB, I can take most of the search out of it.
I'm presuming that if I'm seized with an MI, fall off a mountain, or get trapped in deep water Out There, I'm a goner. But if I can still light a PLB, that might save the life of a searcher. If that's the last thing I do in life, at least that moment will have been well lived.
Another Kevin
06-02-2016, 15:51
The female hiker that died last yr in whites trying to traverse in winter maelstrom, found out that depending on rescue due to plb was poor plan B. No substitute for common sense, prudence, and choosing weather conditions carefully. After all, you cant be rescued if SAR cant reach you due to conditions. Reflection gps variance can also cause position fix issues of a mile or more in steep walled terrain.
I also read the incident reports. She didn't have a real PLB, she had a SPOT, which was not rated for the temperatures she was exposing it to. It still pinged with a few true positions, although the first fix was way off. There was still no rescue to be had in those conditions, but maybe that's not the point (see my previous post).