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SGTJones
06-06-2016, 09:03
Felt the need to write this after talking to a 24 year old who thought that his daily allotment of 5 granola bars, trail mix, and 2 packets of ramen was "probably close to 6000 calories and I just dont know why I'm so tired".

The two big mistakes I see is one not enough fat, and two not enough nutrition.

Gram for gram fat has 9cals/gram while protein and carbs have 4cals. So a pound of fat has more than double the calories. I've been throwing an entire stick of butter or 4ozs of olive oil into my dinners for an additional ~800 cals.

Ramen, pasta, tortillas are all fairly devoid of micronutrients. Throw in some flax seed, sardines, almonds, quinoa, etc. And supplement with multi vitamin and magnesium.

Magnesium is essential to healthy functions. When I was trainer I put every athlete on magnesium and they all reported improvement in mood and energy levels. Our primary dietary source for mag is green leafy veggies so you can bet your ass any thru hiker will be deficient unless they supplement.

I've been on the trail for a month now carrying between 44 and 49lbs(camera gear weighs me down) and have only lost 3lbs. Came into hot springs yesterday and wasn't even hungry for real food lol. So it is very possible to meet your caloric needs on the trail.

I'm 195lb male so I've been shooting for 5k cals/day. Able to make that with all the fat I eat, going through half a pound of cheese and 8-12 Ozs of butter and olive oil in addition to 1lb of trail mix(mostly cashews and almonds) then half a sleeve of pasta(800 cals 200g carbs) some tuna/sardines and bagels/tortillas.

IMO malnutrition is probably one of the leading causes of dropouts on the trail. If you're starved your motivation and energy drops to nothing. That's why they starve you in the military, it's a great way to induce extra stress. So eat more and you'll have a much better time on the trail!!

jefals
06-06-2016, 09:26
There's actually a way to take cheese and butter backpacking? I couldn't imagine adding a,whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack! 😠 Actually, they did make me eat a stick of butter after I pulled a little mischief at military school. YUCK!!

jefals
06-06-2016, 09:34
I agree about the mag. I used to get terrible cramps in my feet and hands, practicality every time I either exercised too hard or got too cold. No way I could have started backpacking. I started taking calcium and magnesium supplements and it's no longer an issue. Well, I still get em, but much less often and much less severe.

Tipi Walter
06-06-2016, 09:44
Lately I've been taking raw sunflower and raw pumpkins seeds in ziplocks and these are super foods for fat and nutrients. On my last trip I had 2 lbs bags of each and they make great snack foods to munch either on the trail or in camp.

Otherwise (being a vegan) I always take natural peanut butter (crazy richard's), almond butter and cashew butter which augments my oatmeal and is eaten on Ezekiel bread with blueberry/strawberry jam. Almond butter is excellent with fresh red apples of which I always start a trip with 3 or 4.

My latest craze is Ezekiel bread sandwiches with sliced raw tempeh (it lasts a long time in the field) on bread liberally coated with eggless mayonnaise. I take this stuff packed in a 3 lb plastic container (old honey container) and believe it or not it lasts 21 days without spoilage. I add this mayo to all my cooked meals as a sort of garnish like butter or cheese. Excellent stuff.

http://followyrheart.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/product1.png

Dogwood
06-06-2016, 10:02
"Felt the need to write this after talking to a 24 year old who thought that his daily allotment of 5 granola bars, trail mix, and 2 packets of ramen was "probably close to 6000 calories and I just dont know why I'm so tired".

Strongly doubt it. It would assume close to 4000 cals/day in trail mix. Possible but unlikely.

"The two big mistakes I see is one not enough fat, and two not enough nutrition."

In general I'd agree but optimal diets can vary so widely depending on many factors. Could be a trail mix does have a very high fat content(160 cal/oz+ ratio).

Glad to hear your hike is progressing well. Seems like your'e being observant. That's good. Not saying you're doing this but don't get into being harshly judgmental about other's approaches as a matter of habit.

Odd Man Out
06-06-2016, 10:07
There's actually a way to take cheese and butter backpacking? I couldn't imagine adding a,whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack! 😠 Actually, they did make me eat a stick of butter after I pulled a little mischief at military school. YUCK!!

You may not like butter, but the assertion that butter consumption is linked to heart disease reflects conventional wisdom that was based on flawed reasearch and is not consistent with recent data. Check out myth #2 in this article.

https://authoritynutrition.com/11-biggest-lies-of-mainstream-nutrition/

SGTJones
06-06-2016, 10:10
There's actually a way to take cheese and butter backpacking? I couldn't imagine adding a,whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack! 😠 Actually, they did make me eat a stick of butter after I pulled a little mischief at military school. YUCK!!

Oh yeah butter and cheese will keep at least 5 days even in fairly hot temps. Just be sure to bag the butter 😂


Lately I've been taking raw sunflower and raw pumpkins seeds in ziplocks and these are super foods for fat and nutrients. On my last trip I had 2 lbs bags of each and they make great snack foods to munch either on the trail or in camp.

Otherwise (being a vegan) I always take natural peanut butter (crazy richard's), almond butter and cashew butter which augments my oatmeal and is eaten on Ezekiel bread with blueberry/strawberry jam. Almond butter is excellent with fresh red apples of which I always start a trip with 3 or 4.

My latest craze is Ezekiel bread sandwiches with sliced raw tempeh (it lasts a long time in the field) on bread liberally coated with eggless mayonnaise. I take this stuff packed in a 3 lb plastic container (old honey container) and believe it or not it lasts 21 days without spoilage. I add this mayo to all my cooked meals as a sort of garnish like butter or cheese. Excellent stuff.

[IMG]http://followyrheart.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/product1.png[/IG]

Ah mayonnaise! How have I forgotten that delicious fatty addition... lunches are gonna be way tastier now. Thanks for the recipes.


"Felt the need to write this after talking to a 24 year old who thought that his daily allotment of 5 granola bars, trail mix, and 2 packets of ramen was "probably close to 6000 calories and I just dont know why I'm so tired".

Strongly doubt it. It would assume close to 4000 cals/day in trail mix. Possible but unlikely.

"The two big mistakes I see is one not enough fat, and two not enough nutrition."

In general I'd agree but optimal diets can vary so widely depending on many factors. Could be a trail mix does have a very high fat content(160 cal/oz+ ratio).

Glad to hear your hike is progressing well. Seems like your'e being observant. That's good. Not saying you're doing this but don't get into being harshly judgmental about other's approaches as a matter of habit.

Oh for sure, I used his example because he thought be was getting 6k when it was probably closer to 2k and that's why I wrote this - a lot of the people I've encountered seem to be doing okay carb wise but could perform way better if they got more fat cals.

jefals
06-06-2016, 11:17
You may not like butter, but the assertion that butter consumption is linked to heart disease reflects conventional wisdom that was based on flawed reasearch and is not consistent with recent data. Check out myth #2
Hey, I like butter. But if I'm gonna eat a plate of pasta, or butter my toast - I'm not gonna use a whole stick!
And , regarding that link - well, there's lots of less than accurate stuff posted out there on tge internet. I bet it wouldn't be hard to find reputable folks who have posted opposing views..

Odd Man Out
06-06-2016, 11:19
For us non vegans, regular mayo is emulsified with whole eggs. Egg yokes are loaded with nutrients and healthy fats. Efficiency whites are complete protein. See myth #1 in my link above about eggs. Also contrary to popular belief, mayo (like butter and cheese) are not particularly perishable.

BTW I'm not knocking vegans. Tipi gets all this nutrition with non animal sources. But non vegans should not be frightened off by egg myths. Also, I may try that Ezekiel Bread instead of tortillas on my next hike. I got some single serve packages of Justins natural PB for lunch.

imscotty
06-06-2016, 11:32
Nutrition aside, I've never understood why some hikers like to eat all that crappy processed food. My guess is that they eat crappy food at home too.

la.lindsey
06-06-2016, 11:49
Nutrition aside, I've never understood why some hikers like to eat all that crappy processed food. My guess is that they eat crappy food at home too.

I eat pretty crappy food on the trail. I don't always eat crappy at home, but it depends on how busy I am, and I am frequently busy.

I experimented with heathy food this weekend on a quick section and when I sat down to eat, nothing actually appealed to me. I wanted a snickers and a tortilla and ramen, not nuts and couscous.

My beef jerky was good though. Whoever recommended Krave brand was spot on.

FWIW, I'm on the low end of a healthy BMI and my blood work is spectacular. So you can't say my love of McDonald's has made me fat and unhealthy :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

saltysack
06-06-2016, 11:52
Nutrition aside, I've never understood why some hikers like to eat all that crappy processed food. My guess is that they eat crappy food at home too.

I'm just the opposite!!! Only time I allow myself to eat the garbage is when I'm burning it off of a long hiking trip!!! I try to balance good nutrition with the empty calories though....I had never had a pop tart before I started hiking....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rafe
06-06-2016, 12:05
I duinno, I guess I'm a little leery of a guy toting 45+ lbs. on the AT, telling the rest of us we're doing it all wrong. ;)

seattleboatguy
06-06-2016, 12:27
I'm 195lb male so I've been shooting for 5k cals/day. Able to make that with all the fat I eat, going through half a pound of cheese and 8-12 Ozs of butter and olive oil in addition to 1lb of trail mix(mostly cashews and almonds) then half a sleeve of pasta(800 cals 200g carbs) some tuna/sardines and bagels/tortillas.
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Hikingjim
06-06-2016, 12:37
I duinno, I guess I'm a little leery of a guy toting 45+ lbs. on the AT, telling the rest of us we're doing it all wrong. ;)

A bit of a heavy load, but not sure that invalidates his reasonable claims about fatty food and nutrition. Not that I want to eat a stick of butter...

Connie
06-06-2016, 12:38
I like Tempeh burgers. I purchase them in the freezer section of the grocery store.

Tipi Walter,They don't require refrigeration?

If so, they are going in tortilla "wraps", with salad dressing and any fresh veggies.

I also found out I like a hummus spread, and, I like couscous with basil pesto.


SGTJones,

I can add olive oil to almost any entree, but a stick of butter??? I will stick with Jello cheescake.

SGTJones
06-06-2016, 13:29
I duinno, I guess I'm a little leery of a guy toting 45+ lbs. on the AT, telling the rest of us we're doing it all wrong. ;)

I'm carrying 45lbs because I have a bunch of camera equipment shooting a documentary. Totally worth it, the photos I've gotten alone are worth the weight. Here's some of my favs: a few of my favs from the Appalachian trail so far https://imgur.com/gallery/QThG3

Without camera gear my packs dry weight is about 18lbs. Also carrying a lot of food as you can see from the OP lol. Took 16lbs from Gatlinburg to Hot Springs and ate almost all of it. But again worth it to me - I'd rather be full and a little uncomfortable then light and hungry but to each their own.

Also I only mentioned pack weight because at 195 with 45lbs I'm probably burning more than most on the trail, so if I can get enough cals in anyone can.

daveiniowa
06-06-2016, 13:42
How about too much sodium? Any one getting too much sodium on the trail?

ScottTrip
06-06-2016, 13:43
Interesting. I was wrong for 2000 + miles.

backtrack213
06-06-2016, 14:05
What do you think of the Ezekiel tortillas? I only find this stuff frozen but I want to try something like that but bread takes up a lot of space.

greenmtnboy
06-06-2016, 14:27
Why eat when you aren't hungry? Most people overeat and that becomes a drag on the larger health.

egilbe
06-06-2016, 15:17
How about too much sodium? Any one getting too much sodium on the trail?

In my experience, it all gets sweated out.

Tipi Walter
06-06-2016, 15:40
I like Tempeh burgers. I purchase them in the freezer section of the grocery store.

Tipi Walter,They don't require refrigeration?

If so, they are going in tortilla "wraps", with salad dressing and any fresh veggies.

I also found out I like a hummus spread, and, I like couscous with basil pesto.

The general consensus is that tempeh can be eaten raw and it's something I have done for years on my backpacking trips. I do not recommend anyone eat tempeh raw because their systems may be very different than what I am used to eating.

I buy Lightlife tempeh from a local Ingles grocery store and it comes in vacuum sealed packages which seems to stay "fresh" even w/o refrigeration and last me several weeks on a trip. Once opened it will go bad faster---going bad defined as a bad smell or a slimy feel to it. I always do the smell test for nearly everything I take out backpacking. On my last May trip I took out two unopened packages of this tempeh and ate it all in the space of 15 days.

On my next trip---in even hotter temps---I will take 3 packages and continue to make my tempeh/mayo sandwiches.

https://d39hcmrh8xztgk.cloudfront.net/product_product-large_lightlife-organic-tempeh-three-grain-original-320.jpg.jpg

Venchka
06-06-2016, 16:10
Felt the need to write this after talking to a 24 year old who thought that his daily allotment of 5 granola bars, trail mix, and 2 packets of ramen was "probably close to 6000 calories and I just dont know why I'm so tired".

The two big mistakes I see is one not enough fat, and two not enough nutrition.

Gram for gram fat has 9cals/gram while protein and carbs have 4cals. So a pound of fat has more than double the calories. I've been throwing an entire stick of butter or 4ozs of olive oil into my dinners for an additional ~800 cals.

Ramen, pasta, tortillas are all fairly devoid of micronutrients. Throw in some flax seed, sardines, almonds, quinoa, etc. And supplement with multi vitamin and magnesium.

Magnesium is essential to healthy functions. When I was trainer I put every athlete on magnesium and they all reported improvement in mood and energy levels. Our primary dietary source for mag is green leafy veggies so you can bet your ass any thru hiker will be deficient unless they supplement.

I've been on the trail for a month now carrying between 44 and 49lbs(camera gear weighs me down) and have only lost 3lbs. Came into hot springs yesterday and wasn't even hungry for real food lol. So it is very possible to meet your caloric needs on the trail.

I'm 195lb male so I've been shooting for 5k cals/day. Able to make that with all the fat I eat, going through half a pound of cheese and 8-12 Ozs of butter and olive oil in addition to 1lb of trail mix(mostly cashews and almonds) then half a sleeve of pasta(800 cals 200g carbs) some tuna/sardines and bagels/tortillas.

IMO malnutrition is probably one of the leading causes of dropouts on the trail. If you're starved your motivation and energy drops to nothing. That's why they starve you in the military, it's a great way to induce extra stress. So eat more and you'll have a much better time on the trail!!

The BIGGEST mistakes this 24 year old made were never learning how to read and addition.

Wayne

Malto
06-06-2016, 17:33
Oh yeah butter and cheese will keep at least 5 days even in fairly hot temps. Just be sure to bag the butter 



Ah mayonnaise! How have I forgotten that delicious fatty addition... lunches are gonna be way tastier now. Thanks for the recipes.



Oh for sure, I used his example because he thought be was getting 6k when it was probably closer to 2k and that's why I wrote this - a lot of the people I've encountered seem to be doing okay carb wise but could perform way better if they got more fat cals.

Somebody will bonk from lack of carbs not from lack of fat. On the other hand, the addition of fat will keep long term weight loss to a minimum which is why long duration hikes need much more fat than shorter durations. I hiked with a hiker on my thru that could hike circles around me in the morning yet I left him in the dust in the afternoon. It was a lack of calorie intake, specifically carbs that caused him to fade. He also didn't meter his calories in during the day.

Dogwood
06-06-2016, 17:42
The general consensus is that tempeh can be eaten raw and it's something I have done for years on my backpacking trips. I do not recommend anyone eat tempeh raw because their systems may be very different than what I am used to eating.

I buy Lightlife tempeh from a local Ingles grocery store and it comes in vacuum sealed packages which seems to stay "fresh" even w/o refrigeration and last me several weeks on a trip. Once opened it will go bad faster---going bad defined as a bad smell or a slimy feel to it. I always do the smell test for nearly everything I take out backpacking. On my last May trip I took out two unopened packages of this tempeh and ate it all in the space of 15 days.

On my next trip---in even hotter temps---I will take 3 packages and continue to make my tempeh/mayo sandwiches.

https://d39hcmrh8xztgk.cloudfront.net/product_product-large_lightlife-organic-tempeh-three-grain-original-320.jpg.jpg


Have you tried dehydrating this Tempeh to make it last longer? I thought you might have said somewhere you did. What was your take on it?

Tipi Walter
06-06-2016, 17:49
Have you tried dehydrating this Tempeh to make it last longer? I thought you might have said somewhere you did. What was your take on it?

I'm a dehydrating fanatic and yes I have sliced up tempeh and dried it at home and it reconstitutes perfectly in soups or dried brown rice or chilis etc. It's excellent dried. Although fresh tempeh makes for much better sandwiches with mayo.

Plain white TOFU on the other hand dries like a rock and even after 30 minutes in my hot pot cozy the stuff is inedible. Then again, store bought baked tofu can be sliced and dried "just enough time" to render it firm and soft enough to eat like jerky but not dried so long as to be rock solid. My fave is Wildwood tofu but it's hard to find.

http://www.runnerskitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/IMG_0589-300x224.jpg
This can be sliced and dried a few hours and it becomes trail-worthy and edible as a snack---although fresh tofu spoils quickly and sours fast.

Sarcasm the elf
06-06-2016, 18:01
Somebody will bonk from lack of carbs not from lack of fat. On the other hand, the addition of fat will keep long term weight loss to a minimum which is why long duration hikes need much more fat than shorter durations. I hiked with a hiker on my thru that could hike circles around me in the morning yet I left him in the dust in the afternoon. It was a lack of calorie intake, specifically carbs that caused him to fade. He also didn't meter his calories in during the day.

Malto, I'm curious to know what you would consider the rough time/distance where a hike becomes a long distance hike

SGTJones
06-06-2016, 18:16
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Hmmm I'm not the best to answer this question but I'll give it a stab. Olive oil would have a lot less saturated fat. If you're trying to keep dietary cholesterol low I suppose just trying to up your other sources of calories as much as possible, more complex carbs and proteins.

Malto
06-06-2016, 18:17
Malto, I'm curious to know what you would consider the rough time/distance where a hike becomes a long distance hike

For me it would be about two weeks but I t really depends on how much body fat one has. I could go two weeks, burning about a pound of fat a day and be fine (and really skinny) Beyond that duration I would add more calories per fat primarily in fat. (I actually take low calorie Spam vs. regular because I really want to train my body on how to use my body fat.). Also, people generally have more fat than they think. I just had a whole battery of tests done and it has confirmed the two week mark.

pilgrimskywheel
06-06-2016, 18:58
It was my understanding there would be no math involved. If you are about to crest the Blue Ridge and smash into the Shennies, meet a girl who is twenty something and digs your stinky butt for some strange reason - son, make all the poor food choices you want! Just don't forget to wash it down with Pabst Blue Ribbon. You're good.

rafe
06-06-2016, 19:03
Interesting. I've never carried oil, butter or margarine on hikes. Cooking, such as it is, consists of heating noodles of one sort or another, or a freeze-dried dinner. I get fats from cheese, chocolate, nuts, peanut butter, Pringles, pepperoni, Larabars, cracker snacks, and town stops.

I'm about 20 lbs. over ideal weight. On my two longest hikes (750 miles, 600 miles) I lost most of that excess each time. So, I probably never got to where I was bonking from not-enough-fat. I had plenty to burn.

Venchka
06-06-2016, 20:52
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Simvastatin. Not sure what dosage I'm on, 40 mg maybe? It works for me and has been since forever.

Wayne

rafe
06-06-2016, 21:00
It was my understanding there would be no math involved. If you are about to crest the Blue Ridge and smash into the Shennies, meet a girl who is twenty something and digs your stinky butt for some strange reason - son, make all the poor food choices you want! Just don't forget to wash it down with Pabst Blue Ribbon. You're good.

If you're looking for adventure of a new and different kind
And you run across a girl scout who is similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared --
Be Prepared!

- Tom Lehrer, ca. 1952 or so

Heliotrope
06-06-2016, 21:53
If you're looking for adventure of a new and different kind
And you run across a girl scout who is similarly inclined,
Don't be nervous, don't be flustered, don't be scared --
Be Prepared!

- Tom Lehrer, ca. 1952 or so

Gotta love Tom Lehrer!

imscotty
06-06-2016, 22:12
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Studies have shown that the type of instant Ramen noodles most hikers eat are terrible for your health. They may not contain any cholesterol, but they appear to be devastating for your cardiovascular health. A 'tasty little death.'

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/food-and-health/ramen-noodles/

rafe
06-06-2016, 22:28
Studies have shown that the type of instant Ramen noodles most hikers eat are terrible for your health. They may not contain any cholesterol, but they appear to be devastating for your cardiovascular health. A 'tasty little death.'

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/food-and-health/ramen-noodles/

I eat Ramen, but almost no bacon. So I'm calling it even.

cliffordbarnabus
06-06-2016, 22:43
it's always interesting when people post their weight, i.e. 195 lbs, but not height. i mean...are you 5'6" or 6'5". ~huge~ difference.

jefals
06-06-2016, 23:04
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Simvastatin. Not sure what dosage I'm on, 40 mg maybe? It works for me and has been since forever.

Wayne
I agree. I'm on 40 MG Simvastatin also. Really works for me.

misprof
06-07-2016, 01:01
You could also carry bacon grease instead of butter. It also keeps. I usually carry coconut oil for short trips and olive oil for longer ones and added to just about anything but the peanut butter.

Connie
06-07-2016, 05:06
I would not carry bacon grease in bear country. I am interested for ordinary camping. In what ambient temperatures does bacon grease keep? How do you carry it?

I am interested in coconut oil. How do you use it?

I am interested in what the statin-users are saying about fat. I have a low-salt low-fat medical diet order, not statins, because I find if I am active my body self-regulates body weight and I seem to get good LDL's from my food choices. I do not concetn myself so much about the medical diet order when I am out hiking in the mountains. I do not have the saltiest food choices, but a small lunch box size Fritos or small Planter's mixed peanuts goes well.

I have the impression special diets are for living indoors and a more sedentary lifestyle. Really.

My body seems to know how to regulate and manage everything well when I am leading an active life outdoors.

I was just told no-milk no-wheat. I will find out how I will do that. I like barley, oats, quinoa, rice and and spelt. I will have to find out if spelt avoids what I cannot have for wheat, or leave that out. I may be able to have aged-cheese, or is it no milk or milk products entirely. I will have to find out.

It looks like I will have to do more food prep for the hike.

In general, I was told fats solid at room temperature are harmful. Now, I see recommended use of coconut oil and it looks solid in the jar at the store kept at room temperature. How is coconut oil used, while hiking?

I would think it would make good home-recipe "energy bars".

Maydog
06-07-2016, 05:59
My simvastatin experience: I've been on simvastatin for about a decade now. Had open heart surgery 8 years ago. Maybe 5-6 years ago, I was reading my wife's Pharmacy newsletter. (She's a pharmacist and this helps her stay abreast of changes and updates.) In the newsletter, they published a report that showed that most statin users could reduce their statin dosage by 50% and still get 80-90% of the cholesterol reduction compared to a full dose. So I started cutting my simvastatin in half and after several months I had my bloodwork done and all my cholesterol (LDL, HDL, total) and triglyceride levels were still in the safe range. My cardiologist was happy, and so was I. After a few more months, I decided to try cutting my dosage by half again, which put me at 25% of my originally-prescribed dosage. Again, when I went back for a checkup, all my cholesterol and triglyceride levels were still in the safe range. Cardiologist was happy, I'm happy. Not crazy about taking statins anyway, but if I can take 25% of the recommended dosage and get satisfactory results, I'm all in.

colorado_rob
06-07-2016, 06:43
Studies have shown that the type of instant Ramen noodles most hikers eat are terrible for your health. They may not contain any cholesterol, but they appear to be devastating for your cardiovascular health. A 'tasty little death.'

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/food-and-health/ramen-noodles/"Study". not "Studies", and if you read it, not so bad, really, and seems to affect only women if I read it right?

Anyway, good post, good info from some folks. I do carry fairly high-fat foods, mostly nut-based though, and consume those foods in the evenings and mornings. Along the trail, it's all carbs and sugars, that's what burns efficiently while actively hiking. Another data point: I eat in the low 3000's calories per day on the trail, much more on town stops, and I don't lose weight. 180 pound, 6'1" male. I just don't get the 5000/day thing, and in fact, I think those types of numbers are inaccurate except for somewhat heavier folks.

MuddyWaters
06-07-2016, 07:25
Depends on how much one hikes. I have no doubt I burn 4500-5000 cal per day doing 20 mile days in strenuous terrain. Someone doing low miles or easy flat walking would no doubt burn much less.

Your likely going to burn 100-300 cal/hr with walking excercise. So how many hrs and how intense makes difference of 1000 cal/day or more.

155-160 lb, fit, low bodyfat, I lose 1-2 lb per week eating 3000-3500 cal/day and pigging out in town. I like to hike 18-25 mile days, rarely less than 16 or so if theres daylight.

greenmtnboy
06-07-2016, 08:45
There may be a few cases where statins are needed at least short term but personally I am pretty disgusted how doctors put people on various meds. especially when they aren't really necessary with all the alternatives.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/06/donald-w-miller-jr-md/is-your-doctor-harming-you/
com
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/02/10/5-reasons-why-you-should-not-take-statins.aspx
http://statins.mercola.com/

JC13
06-07-2016, 08:59
All of this information makes me curious now. I am 6'1" 190lbs, 7.3% BF on my last skinfold. I maintain currently on 3875 cal with a 39% carb/37% fat/24% protein breakdown. Working on figuring out how many calories I need to carry for a 8-10 AT section in July. We will be most likely moving at 2 mph, possibly up to 10 hrs a day depending on how it all shakes out. Springer to wherever we end up.

rafe
06-07-2016, 09:20
We will be most likely moving at 2 mph, possibly up to 10 hrs a day depending on how it all shakes out. Springer to wherever we end up.

I can believe 20 miles with a pack, on typical AT terrain will burn 5K calories. But most thru hikers do not sustain 20 miles per day.

Malto
06-07-2016, 09:36
All of this information makes me curious now. I am 6'1" 190lbs, 7.3% BF on my last skinfold. I maintain currently on 3875 cal with a 39% carb/37% fat/24% protein breakdown. Working on figuring out how many calories I need to carry for a 8-10 AT section in July. We will be most likely moving at 2 mph, possibly up to 10 hrs a day depending on how it all shakes out. Springer to wherever we end up.

My rough rule of thumb..... 1 calorie per mile per lb of weight. In your case use 210 for weight (pack) and 20 mpd would give you about 4200 calories.

JC13
06-07-2016, 10:41
I can believe 20 miles with a pack, on typical AT terrain will burn 5K calories. But most thru hikers do not sustain 20 miles per day.I agree that most don't/won't maintain 20 mpd. I have been using a wrist fitness tracker to log steps but I have found that it reads poorly when I use trekking poles. GPS data from an 17.4mi hike last week clocked 5148 calories burned over 8:39 including stops. Pace was 29.48 min/mile.


My rough rule of thumb..... 1 calorie per mile per lb of weight. In your case use 210 for weight (pack) and 20 mpd would give you about 4200 calories.Gotcha, Ppck is looking like it will be 30 lbs with food so 4400 will be the target. Looks like I need to find a source for those 500 calorie honey buns. One of those added to the current meal plan would put me at 4450 calories.

Thank you both for the input!

MuddyWaters
06-07-2016, 11:22
There may be a few cases where statins are needed at least short term but personally I am pretty disgusted how doctors put people on various meds. especially when they aren't really necessary with all the alternatives.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/06/donald-w-miller-jr-md/is-your-doctor-harming-you/
com
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/02/10/5-reasons-why-you-should-not-take-statins.aspx
http://statins.mercola.com/

Heres the truth:

People are lazy idiots and gluttons.

When a dr says eat better, exercise. Lose wt, most do minimal if any of that. For a dr to be able to help weak minded people, only thing he can do is give them drugs. And thats the vast majority of population. If he doesnt do that, they wont come back.

Medication should be last resort, not first, for sure.

SGTJones
06-07-2016, 11:34
All of this information makes me curious now. I am 6'1" 190lbs, 7.3% BF on my last skinfold. I maintain currently on 3875 cal with a 39% carb/37% fat/24% protein breakdown. Working on figuring out how many calories I need to carry for a 8-10 AT section in July. We will be most likely moving at 2 mph, possibly up to 10 hrs a day depending on how it all shakes out. Springer to wherever we end up.

Hey your stats are similar to mine. When I left I was 197lbs 14% bf, at 6'1".

I'm aiming for 5k/day out here, don't always hit it but I get fairly close. Have not really tracked macros but I know I'm getting at least 80g protein and roughly 300-400g carbs day with the rest coming from fat. That has allowed me to maintain most of my muscle mass and keep my energy up. Last week I averaged 16 miles/day with a 45lb pack and calculated that to burn roughly 4500-5k cals.

Main indicator hat I'm eating enough is the fact I'm not super hungry even when I get to a town. 8-10 days or 8-10 weeks? If it's 8-10 days you really should t worry you'll drop probably 2-3lbs of body fat and any muscle loss will be negligible and come right back when yiu get back to civilization.

Edit: also I wouldn't try to maintain a low body fat on the trail. You'll need lots of carbs to refill glycogen. Don't be afraid to eat sugar out here it really does help keep you going through the day.

JC13
06-07-2016, 12:03
Hey your stats are similar to mine. When I left I was 197lbs 14% bf, at 6'1".

I'm aiming for 5k/day out here, don't always hit it but I get fairly close. Have not really tracked macros but I know I'm getting at least 80g protein and roughly 300-400g carbs day with the rest coming from fat. That has allowed me to maintain most of my muscle mass and keep my energy up. Last week I averaged 16 miles/day with a 45lb pack and calculated that to burn roughly 4500-5k cals.

Main indicator hat I'm eating enough is the fact I'm not super hungry even when I get to a town. 8-10 days or 8-10 weeks? If it's 8-10 days you really should t worry you'll drop probably 2-3lbs of body fat and any muscle loss will be negligible and come right back when yiu get back to civilization.

Edit: also I wouldn't try to maintain a low body fat on the trail. You'll need lots of carbs to refill glycogen. Don't be afraid to eat sugar out here it really does help keep you going through the day.8-10 days, I wish I had 8-10 weeks! Not too worried about muscle loss, just trying to figure out a decent goal for intake. I generally avoid sugar if I can, it makes me crave it pretty bad. Trying to maximize my nutritional bang for the buck against weight carried.

I think another portion of the "hiker hunger" is that lack of nutritional variation most hikers ingest. There have been multiple insightful posts on here that lead me to the conclusion that it is better to carry a bit more food weight to get what you will eat and enjoy than trying to go UL at the expense of nutrition.

Before adding the 500 calorie honey bun, sitting at 3950 cal with 417g carbs/180g fat/190g protein. Definitely looking to add more carbs, going no cook so that adds a little to the challenge.

CalebJ
06-07-2016, 12:24
8-10 days, I wish I had 8-10 weeks! Not too worried about muscle loss, just trying to figure out a decent goal for intake. I generally avoid sugar if I can, it makes me crave it pretty bad. Trying to maximize my nutritional bang for the buck against weight carried.

I think another portion of the "hiker hunger" is that lack of nutritional variation most hikers ingest. There have been multiple insightful posts on here that lead me to the conclusion that it is better to carry a bit more food weight to get what you will eat and enjoy than trying to go UL at the expense of nutrition.

Before adding the 500 calorie honey bun, sitting at 3950 cal with 417g carbs/180g fat/190g protein. Definitely looking to add more carbs, going no cook so that adds a little to the challenge.

What about liquid carbs? A liter of water mixed with 2/3 cup of maltodextrin gives you 250 calories, 63g of carbohydrates, and only 2 g of sugars. Much slower energy burn than the pure sugar honey bun. Perfect for a no cook meal plan.

Connie
06-07-2016, 12:28
The calories/ounce and nutritional value/gram is how light weight and low volume in the backpack is achieved.

These discussion threads have hikers making that goal at 1.5 to 2 lbs food per day (not me, I am at 2.5 lbs food per day because I carry a compliment of fresh food so I like a roll-top backpack that can give me more volume inside the pack leaving re-supply) but that 1.5 to 2 lbs per day food weight carried is achieved by thru-hikers.

I am a section hiker.

My goal is healthy activity outdoors in a nature-made environment, not the end of a long trail in one season.

I have a calories/ounce food items to include list: sweets are way down the list.

Nutritional value/gram food items to include will make a more interesting list, as far as I am concerned.

I wish I had that list ready..

Greenlight
06-07-2016, 13:33
He's right. Doctors are finally admitting they've been feeding us a line of B.S. for the past 50 years. Fat does not make you fat. Empty carbs, sugar, and highly processed foods are what has been killing us. Want to eat a healthy diet? Mostly salad and as wide a variety of both raw and cooked veggies as you can get, beans, fungi ('shrooms), onions, nuts, berries, seeds, and about 4 ounces of meat per day. If you're sedentary, watch the salt intake. And yes, animal fats are fine. Be more worried about all the hormones and antibiotics they're putting in your meat if you have a local supplier of grass fed beef or bison, chickens, pigs, ect...make sure they're only giving them antibiotics if they get sick, and no growth hormones.

As I have said before, I dehydrate greens (collard, mustard, turnip, spinach, etc) scrunch them up and pack them in a gallon zip lock baggie and take them on my hikes. You can add them to anything you're putting water in, just add a bit more water and you have all the greens you can stand every day!


Hey, I like butter. But if I'm gonna eat a plate of pasta, or butter my toast - I'm not gonna use a whole stick!
And , regarding that link - well, there's lots of less than accurate stuff posted out there on tge internet. I bet it wouldn't be hard to find reputable folks who have posted opposing views..

JC13
06-07-2016, 14:06
What about liquid carbs? A liter of water mixed with 2/3 cup of maltodextrin gives you 250 calories, 63g of carbohydrates, and only 2 g of sugars. Much slower energy burn than the pure sugar honey bun. Perfect for a no cook meal plan.Might be a good option, would have to use water bottles though. I could mix it in the blender bottle I am bringing for my shakes and refill it from my bladder.

I guess I didn't even think about doing gatorade or some similar type of electrolytes. Bottle of course required there as well.

Connie
06-07-2016, 15:22
I like Champion Nutrition Cytomax sticks for electrolytes, with the added benefit of preventing lactic acid buildup if I have to push for any reason.


Greenlight,

Here, in this forum, there was a discussion about glycemic index.

I read it is the glycemic index of food items or food products that causes weight gain, and the food items and food products that have a high glycemic index are a surprise.

I have also read about crisping cut up kale in the oven.

What kind of temperature and drying time for those leafy vegetables?

Tipi Walter
06-07-2016, 16:13
Heres the truth:

People are lazy idiots and gluttons.


I really like the way your mind thinks.




As I have said before, I dehydrate greens (collard, mustard, turnip, spinach, etc) scrunch them up and pack them in a gallon zip lock baggie and take them on my hikes. You can add them to anything you're putting water in, just add a bit more water and you have all the greens you can stand every day!

Dehydrating raw greens sounds interesting and I've done my share of dried spinach but nothing else. Does it matter if the greens are steamed first or raw?




I have also read about crisping cut up kale in the oven.

What kind of temperature and drying time for those leafy vegetables?

The only greens I have ever dried are frozen organic spinach available at grocery stores.

http://cdn.ebfarm.com/sites/default/files/styles/512/public/products/8oz_Froz-Spinach_512sq.jpg?itok=yH7z181n
I take several bags of this product and dry the whole wad for field use. I just don't know if this stuff is cooked first and then bagged for sale??

https://photos.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-Yellow-Mt/i-wfBsSdk/0/L/Trip%20156%20001-L.jpg
Here are a couple bags on my tray ready for drying. Looks cooked.

Connie
06-07-2016, 17:45
Tipi Walter,

We you thaw it, do you squeeze or drain the water?

My family had a quite extensive vegetable garden when I was a child.

We "blanched" all vegetables the amount of time we had on printed information, before putting in plastic we had for small waxed freezer boxes.

I would think all frozen vegetables are "blanched" first. I would have to find out if they are treated with "sulphured" or treated with a solution of vit C, for example.

Tipi Walter
06-07-2016, 18:03
Tipi Walter,

We you thaw it, do you squeeze or drain the water?



Once the frozen spinach is thawed I drain the water and place on silicone sheets for dehydrating.

Heliotrope
06-07-2016, 20:07
Once the frozen spinach is thawed I drain the water and place on silicone sheets for dehydrating.

I'm new to dehydrating. Why wouldn't you use the screens?

Tipi Walter
06-07-2016, 20:36
I'm new to dehydrating. Why wouldn't you use the screens?

Too wet. Easier to clean off of silicone sheets.

gollwoods
06-08-2016, 02:08
Pringes tortilla chips are about like oil but with carbs and sodium 150 can/oz

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gollwoods
06-08-2016, 02:09
Pringes tortilla chips are about like oil but with carbs and sodium 150 can/oz

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Cal/oz.

Studies have shown that the type of instant Ramen noodles most hikers eat are terrible for your health. They may not contain any cholesterol, but they appear to be devastating for your cardiovascular health. A 'tasty little death.'

https://foodrevolution.org/blog/food-and-health/ramen-noodles/


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REB
06-08-2016, 05:56
Good information in this article. Thanks

Connie
06-08-2016, 06:05
I think ramen is particularly damaging to health, because the oil easily gets rancid: even a little rancidity is harmful to health and nutrition.

Whenever a hiker says they are relying on ramen, I can pretty much know they are gorging food in town. Nevertheless, they never catch up with their nutritional needs because rancidity of oils or fats interferes with nutrients in other food items. It is a lose - lose situation.

In fact, ramen was a WWII post-war "invention" to have "the public" "feel full" before there were agricultural food crops available again.

Udon noodles are better.

Hoofit
06-08-2016, 06:55
"Study". not "Studies", and if you read it, not so bad, really, and seems to affect only women if I read it right?

Anyway, good post, good info from some folks. I do carry fairly high-fat foods, mostly nut-based though, and consume those foods in the evenings and mornings. Along the trail, it's all carbs and sugars, that's what burns efficiently while actively hiking. Another data point: I eat in the low 3000's calories per day on the trail, much more on town stops, and I don't lose weight. 180 pound, 6'1" male. I just don't get the 5000/day thing, and in fact, I think those types of numbers are inaccurate except for somewhat heavier folks.

Not sure why you're correcting his English there, seems to me he got it right. I'll bet that has been many 'studies'.

colorado_rob
06-08-2016, 07:07
Not sure why you're correcting his English there, seems to me he got it right. I'll bet that has been many 'studies'.The link he provided referred to a single study, I was pointing out an exaggeration, not poor English. Exaggeration on forum posts is a pet peeve of mine, call it a character flaw, I have many others.

Hoofit
06-08-2016, 07:08
Feel free to correct me however...
I'll bet that 'there' has been many studies!

colorado_rob
06-08-2016, 07:19
My rough rule of thumb..... 1 calorie per mile per lb of weight. In your case use 210 for weight (pack) and 20 mpd would give you about 4200 calories. that's probably a decent rule of thumb.


I can believe 20 miles with a pack, on typical AT terrain will burn 5K calories. But most thru hikers do not sustain 20 miles per day.I did 18-19 MPD regularly on the AT (except in NH and ME!), and I burned in the low 3000's, plus the extra calories in town stops that brings the total close to 4000. My question is this: have others actually closely monitored their actual calorie intake and weight? I have, hence my claim that 5000 is a bit exaggerated, except for fairly unfit folks, or those carrying a good deal of extra body weight. I did this study some years back when planning for a couple long (2-3 week), un-resupplied mountaineering expeditions, because every ounce counts on those trips. I was downright anal about accuracy. I carried this data forward when I did the AT and closely monitored stuff for a good part of my AT hike, the first 700 miles.

Hoofit
06-08-2016, 07:20
Back to the topic..
Diet sure seems easier in the winter months when the temps are in the thirties and forties, cheese and summer sausage can be carried for a week at a time, even bacon and egg tortilla sandwiches are possible! Hey, nothing beats real food!
Not too sure how much 'better' for you butter is than olive oil which is so much easier to transport.
Another vote for sunflower seeds here, fairly lightweight as well. Variety of diet is always a welcome thing though they tend to leave a trail of shells.
Avocado is also a good addition , good fat I am led to believe, though again probably a short shelf life in the summer heat without the pip and skin.

colorado_rob
06-08-2016, 07:29
Feel free to correct me however...
I'll bet that 'there' has been many studies!Linx to these "studys"?

admirald7s
06-08-2016, 07:42
Feel free to correct me however...
I'll bet that 'there' has been many studies!

Well, if we're all doing it...

"I'll bet that there have been many studies!"




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imscotty
06-08-2016, 08:11
Colorado_Rob was correct in correcting me, I had in my mind that one study that is frequently referenced so I should have used the singular in my comment.

That said, some Googling will show that there are other studies on diet and health of Korean school children that take in account Ramen noodle consumption. So those of you who say there are multiple studies are also correct.

And I'm going to go enjoy this beautiful day. We all win :)

capehiker
06-08-2016, 08:50
I agree with the overall sentiment from the OP. I have been focusing on fats and protein first and filling in with carbs. I also use a higher end electrolyte mix with magnesium twice a day and feel recovered every morning.

Although I totally disagree about nutrition being a leading cause of drops. A heavy and poorly fitted pack combined with the reality of the GA mountains will drop someone before a diet of honey buns will. :)

rafe
06-08-2016, 10:19
Ten, fifteen years ago I realized, or maybe noticed for the first time, that there were two competing food strategies with an infinite range of variations between them: carry your entire, carefully chosen food needs for a long stay in the woods, or deprive yourself to some degree, travel fast and light, and hold out for good meals in town or near trail heads.

I'd always gone the former route, so the fast/light option had some appeal. I think this has been the general trend among AT thru hikers and LASHers, particularly with the abundant infrastructure that's grown up along the way.

Seeing as how most thru hikes really are a succession of short sections, a no-brainer for almost any hike is to bring fresh town food with you, to be consumed in the first day. Eg. I always order up a nice deli sub, and that's dinner for the first night or brunch the next morning back in the woods.

Hikingjim
06-08-2016, 10:45
AT is way easier than many trails to get the nutrition you need, and frankly it isn't difficult unless someone ignores it completely.
Gotta love the 2k calorie restaurant stops at reasonable prices, the multitude of resupply, etc
If I do a hike where I'm cramming things into a bear canister or have to carry 9 days of supply, I'm much more likely to eat like a bird for the last couple days before resupply

Dogwood
06-08-2016, 13:43
What about liquid carbs? A liter of water mixed with 2/3 cup of maltodextrin gives you 250 calories, 63g of carbohydrates, and only 2 g of sugars. Much slower energy burn than the pure sugar honey bun. Perfect for a no cook meal plan.

Although highly favored by the food science industry as a cheaply derived by product from the glut of GM corn in the U.S. as a thickening, binding, and somewhat sweetening agent that prolongs shelf life and in the sports nutrition science recovery, running, and weight gaining industry maltodextrin is still a highly processed polysaccharide(SUGAR) with a rather HIGH Glycemic Index that raises blood sugar. For some, including myself, maltodextrin in the form of various maltodextrin containing gels as the primary ingredient causes energy spikes and energy let downs. This may very well be why manufacturers are adding stimulants such a caffeine, green tea extracts, herbal supplements such as Gotu Kola, etc. to these concoctions. Plus, since maltodextrin is a sugar, it feeds the bad gut flora, the bad bacteria, including possible bacteria in trail side drinking water adding to the completion the "good gut flora" has to contend. Of the two dozen or so gels and sports recovery drinks I've tried I find the energy recovery is only of limited unsustained duration for 10 hrs or more of backpacking which has me reaching for another gel or energy drink. In affect I could have been mediating the blood sugar and energy levels grazing on a fiber and much wider nutrient rich trail mix or such whole minimally processed food(s) using the so called "drip method" of gnoshing to get calories.

DavidNH
06-08-2016, 14:19
ON the trail: snickers bars. Lipton sides, cheese. in town... the entrees (all of them) and a couple desserts!

CalebJ
06-08-2016, 14:34
Although highly favored by the food science industry as a cheaply derived by product from the glut of GM corn in the U.S. as a thickening, binding, and somewhat sweetening agent that prolongs shelf life and in the sports nutrition science recovery, running, and weight gaining industry maltodextrin is still a highly processed polysaccharide(SUGAR) with a rather HIGH Glycemic Index that raises blood sugar. For some, including myself, maltodextrin in the form of various maltodextrin containing gels as the primary ingredient causes energy spikes and energy let downs. This may very well be why manufacturers are adding stimulants such a caffeine, green tea extracts, herbal supplements such as Gotu Kola, etc. to these concoctions. Plus, since maltodextrin is a sugar, it feeds the bad gut flora, the bad bacteria, including possible bacteria in trail side drinking water adding to the completion the "good gut flora" has to contend. Of the two dozen or so gels and sports recovery drinks I've tried I find the energy recovery is only of limited unsustained duration for 10 hrs or more of backpacking which has me reaching for another gel or energy drink. In affect I could have been mediating the blood sugar and energy levels grazing on a fiber and much wider nutrient rich trail mix or such whole minimally processed food(s) using the so called "drip method" of gnoshing to get calories.

Interesting that you've had bad experiences with spikes and crashes with malto. I use it specifically to avoid them (there's no longer anything in my normal food bag that contains significant added sugars). I initially bought a jar of pure malto specifically for putting together homemade energy gels for long training runs.

CalebJ
06-08-2016, 14:35
Since I can't edit... what do you use as a carbohydrate source on the trail, dogwood?

Uriah
06-08-2016, 15:29
My question is this: have others actually closely monitored their actual calorie intake and weight? I have, hence my claim that 5000 is a bit exaggerated, except for fairly unfit folks, or those carrying a good deal of extra body weight.

Don't forget the young males, a category which includes which most AT thru-hikers. The group I hiked with, all (loaded) young guns, were consistently assimilating those sort of numbers (5,000+ calories). As a quick example, the Half Gallon Challenge alone was 2,200 calories (for a true half gallon and not the bogus quart and a half container sold at the Pine Grove Furnace State Park) and no one missed a beat with the rest of the day's calories. Our metabolisms slow with age, eventually to the point they stop altogether! And eating can also increase your metabolism, when constant duress is undertaken.

JC13
06-08-2016, 15:50
that's probably a decent rule of thumb.

I did 18-19 MPD regularly on the AT (except in NH and ME!), and I burned in the low 3000's, plus the extra calories in town stops that brings the total close to 4000. My question is this: have others actually closely monitored their actual calorie intake and weight? I have, hence my claim that 5000 is a bit exaggerated, except for fairly unfit folks, or those carrying a good deal of extra body weight. I did this study some years back when planning for a couple long (2-3 week), un-resupplied mountaineering expeditions, because every ounce counts on those trips. I was downright anal about accuracy. I carried this data forward when I did the AT and closely monitored stuff for a good part of my AT hike, the first 700 miles.I have tracked intake, exercise and such for 2-3 years pretty meticulously. Exercise has been tracked at least for the gym-side of it for much longer. Extended hiking days though I don't have data for past my recent 8-18 mile training hikes. I'm not too concerned with losing some weight in an 8-10 day span but I still like to have as much information to use as a base as possible.

MadRanger
06-08-2016, 16:20
I was just wandering WhiteBlaze and came upon SGTJones' post. Anyone planning a bit of long distance exercise, like me, would well to mull over his observation and suggestions. I am married to a personal chef (a recently acquired, well-paying hobby) who, over our 37-year marriage, has always kept our meals balanced, nutritious and enjoyable. Friends marvel at her skills - and my weight. I am back to my HS wrestling weight with no intent to do so. Well, meals aren't the only factor; we both exercise regularly and know when to push away from the table. (We abide by the 'Body for Life' program.) That said, as I target my 22 Feb 2017 start from Springer, I admit to being absolutely clueless about a developing a balanced diet/menu - and my chef will not be there to assess/modify my intake. So you can bet your/my life that I will take SGTJones' observation to heart in planning and executing a thru hike. (I previously sent a week's menu to the Bride for comment.) Although, I likely will balk on the butter...! Many other comments in this thread are helpful - like the Krave Jerky suggestion (now on order) and another who answered the question I had about a planned menu I saw that had cheese at two different meals in the same day. Thanks, SGTJones. OBTW, great photos on your link.

Dogwood
06-08-2016, 18:01
Interesting that you've had bad experiences with spikes and crashes with malto. I use it specifically to avoid them (there's no longer anything in my normal food bag that contains significant added sugars). I initially bought a jar of pure malto specifically for putting together homemade energy gels for long training runs.

We'll get Malto chiming in shortly to offer his opinion who probably has far more positive experiences with maltodextrin than myself. Note this is what happens to me, what I do, and is not intended for everyone or my experiences dictate how everyone's body might behave. Dietary lifestyle choices have so many personal specifics surrounding outcomes that get ignored in Forums like this. The bonking I get from maltodextrin gels is less of a falling off the cliff crash such as if consuming pure simple refined white sugar but it certainly happens.

Exactly, for training runs of 2 hrs (I'm only a part time runner, not a super star runner by any stretch of the imagination) two gels, a nutritional bar(can of worms too as what most perceive as nutritional bars I would consider candy bars or super high unnecessary protein/'body building' bars), and electrolyte water is OK for me to sustain energy levels for this activity. And, some who do long runs like Ultras do opt for things like gels perhaps successfully so.


Since I can't edit... what do you use as a carbohydrate source on the trail, dogwood?

On backpacking treks of which the majority are LD hikes where I'm actually moving 14-16 hrs every 24 hrs with the occasional 20 hr straight hiking day/night I'm a complex carb and fiber eater with what most would define as abnormally high "good fat" percentage of total daily caloric intake. Good fats coming from sardines, wild salmon(jerky, candy(yum yum), mackerel, high quality fish oil supplementation, olive oil, coconut/coconut oil(more limited off trail when not needing 5000+ cal/day)/coconut milk, nuts/nut and seed butters, seeds(don't forget chia(SABA), flax, hemp, poppy, pumpkin, sesame, sunflower, etc), legumes(beans), high quality dark chocolate(bars, powder, nibs), and a few vegetables(moderate omega 3's). I'll go in and out of a ketogenic state on trail depending where I am with my body. This is part of how I can sustain myself with high fat content low overall wt food on trail. I'm burning fat for energy not just carbs. Simple carbs/highly refined carbs, added high sugar content, additives, are avoided both on and off trail. It works for me because I'm observing my energy levels and adapting my diet as I see the need. My exact dietary choices on trail for a extended hikes are not static. Protein levels are very moderate. Carbs mostly come from minimally processed whole foods(foods as close to or in their most "natural" state). I always have a trail bag containing whole foods always with something "alive" such as growing fresh sprouts on trail, buying fresh produce(asst greens make sense yr round), green onions, small carrot, one small yam, garlic, fresh turmeric, fresh ginger, small apple, even an avocado for the first night out, etc.

Since many of the LD hikes in the U.S. have well researched resupply options I have based my trail food approach as it pertains to volume, wt, and total caloric load by more often choosing to resupply more often allowing me to resupply partially with heavier bulkier fresh whole foods like produce. It also helps that I'm doing 25+ mile days. Best of all overall trail food bag is still UL. It may not be for everyone but it works for me.


It works for me because I'm observing my energy levels and adapting my diet as I see the need. My dietary choices don't arise out of a static approach. One of the most significant things people should take from this thread IMO is that each has to consider a wide range of personally specific aspects in order for dietary choices to work optimally. It's the same for each hiker. Things are always in motion. One has to observe and adapt. It's key, particularly on extended outings.

Malto
06-08-2016, 19:15
^^^ I have experiemented with all sorts of carbs from pure sugar to the most complex of the complex. I have not experienced a crash from any of it but it is likely do to moving continuously and metering in the calories on going. I have seen reports from several other mile mirage hikers that talk about the crash and burn. I have just been lips my enough not to experience it while hiking.

egilbe
06-08-2016, 19:51
^^^ I have experiemented with all sorts of carbs from pure sugar to the most complex of the complex. I have not experienced a crash from any of it but it is likely do to moving continuously and metering in the calories on going. I have seen reports from several other mile mirage hikers that talk about the crash and burn. I have just been lips my enough not to experience it while hiking.

Auto correct hates you

greenmtnboy
06-15-2016, 10:38
Some of my favorite superfoods for hiking etc...
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=ys+bee+pollen+propolis+royal+jelly+honey

Green powders: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=barley%20green%20powder

colorado_rob
06-15-2016, 11:09
^^^ I have experiemented with all sorts of carbs from pure sugar to the most complex of the complex. I have not experienced a crash from any of it but it is likely do to moving continuously and metering in the calories on going. I have seen reports from several other mile mirage hikers that talk about the crash and burn. I have just been lips my enough not to experience it while hiking.Seems like we all really do process carbs/sugars quite differently. I definitely peak and crash quickly if I eat a lot of soft carbs/sugars at once, others obviously do not.

So, since I do peak/crash myself, I simply meter my sugar intake while on the trail, nibbling on sugars nearly constantly with a pocket full of jelly beans or M&M's, crakers or whatever, maybe to the tune of about ~150 calories per hour, something like that. This keeps up my hiking energy all day perfectly. This is another reason I have never done the "lunch" thing, even in "civilian" life off the trail. Basically, some of us are meal-eaters, others of us are grazers.

By the way: that maltodextrine (sp?) stuff is amazing; quickest blood-sugar boost available, I believe. I use it in topping out on big peaks, I eat a pack of shot blocks (200 cal) with 1000 feet to go, they are like a jet-pack.

Also: I still cry BS on folks claiming they consume 5000+ calories a day on the trail, unless they are large or badly out of shape, age not withstanding. I just don't believe it, but whatever! I doubt those folks that claim it actually carefully track their intake. Sure, 2200 cal. half gallons if ice cream will do it for that day. I promise I won't argue the point anymore.

colorado_rob
06-15-2016, 11:54
Don't forget the young males, a category which includes which most AT thru-hikers. The group I hiked with, all (loaded) young guns, were consistently assimilating those sort of numbers (5,000+ calories). As a quick example, the Half Gallon Challenge alone was 2,200 calories (for a true half gallon and not the bogus quart and a half container sold at the Pine Grove Furnace State Park) and no one missed a beat with the rest of the day's calories. Our metabolisms slow with age, eventually to the point they stop altogether! And eating can also increase your metabolism, when constant duress is undertaken.Interesting point about the age thing, you're certainly right that 20-somethigns are the single largest demographic, though there are sure a lot of us old farts too (what's missing are the 30-40's folks).

So, does metabolism actually decrease with age? Probably, but not a whole lot. Here's a quote from an article:

"A study evaluating total energy expenditure (TEE) the sum of calories burned from the basal metabolic rate (metabolism), the energy required to digest and absorb food, and physical activity confirmed what most people already know: energy expenditure decreases with age. Basal metabolic rate, which accounts for about 50 to 70 percent of TEE, is thought to decrease about one to two percent per decade. That is, after a person reaches 20 years old, daily energy expenditure decreases about 150 calories per decade. The decline is probably due to decreased muscle mass (which is highly metabolically-active) and increased fat mass (which is relatively metabolically-inactive)."

So, this says about 150 calories decrease per decade, meaning 20-something to 50-something, say 60 (me) is maybe 500 calories/day. I wonder though how much this applies to constant all-day, but fairly modest, exercise like when long distance hiking? My 60-year-old muscles are certainly starting to atrophy and are getting smaller, but assuming we hike at the same total weight, we're both doing the same actual physical work going up and don those PUD's all day on the AT, seems like your younger, larger muscles would be more efficient than mine, hence I would actually burn more for the same work.

Who knows, I certainly don't, but in any case, you make a very good point. So, maybe my carefully measured 4000 cal/day average (including town stops) ain't that far different from your claimed 5000 cal/day after all. I'll shut up now, I promise.

floid
06-15-2016, 15:16
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?
I think your doctor needs to catch up with the times. I believe that cholesterol levels is more of a nutrition problem. Look at grass fed cows vs grain fed cows in terms of cholesterol. Grain fed has much higher omega 6 and higher cholesterol. Grain products plus lack of proper nutrition makes you arteries hard and raises cholesterol. Cholesterol is your body's spackling compound for hard arteries.

Doors the high pressure side of your water system get clogged? The old school of thought here does not make logical sense.

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Another Kevin
06-15-2016, 18:53
I'm an older hiker, and my doctor is pestering me to lower my cholesterol. If you were concerned about cholesterol levels, what (if anything) would you change in your trail diet?

Are you already an active hiker, or do you aspire to be one?

I found that the best thing I ever did for my blood numbers was: get back to hiking after too many years away from it. Improved weight, cholesterol, HDL, ... tremendously, with no other lifestyle changes. I call it the "keep hiking and eat what I damned please" plan, and my doc says I'm doing something right.

SGTJones
06-16-2016, 10:48
Interesting point about the age thing, you're certainly right that 20-somethigns are the single largest demographic, though there are sure a lot of us old farts too (what's missing are the 30-40's folks).

So, does metabolism actually decrease with age? Probably, but not a whole lot. Here's a quote from an article:

"A study evaluating total energy expenditure (TEE) – the sum of calories burned from the basal metabolic rate (metabolism), the energy required to digest and absorb food, and physical activity – confirmed what most people already know: energy expenditure decreases with age. Basal metabolic rate, which accounts for about 50 to 70 percent of TEE, is thought to decrease about one to two percent per decade. That is, after a person reaches 20 years old, daily energy expenditure decreases about 150 calories per decade. The decline is probably due to decreased muscle mass (which is highly metabolically-active) and increased fat mass (which is relatively metabolically-inactive)."

So, this says about 150 calories decrease per decade, meaning 20-something to 50-something, say 60 (me) is maybe 500 calories/day. I wonder though how much this applies to constant all-day, but fairly modest, exercise like when long distance hiking? My 60-year-old muscles are certainly starting to atrophy and are getting smaller, but assuming we hike at the same total weight, we're both doing the same actual physical work going up and don those PUD's all day on the AT, seems like your younger, larger muscles would be more efficient than mine, hence I would actually burn more for the same work.

Who knows, I certainly don't, but in any case, you make a very good point. So, maybe my carefully measured 4000 cal/day average (including town stops) ain't that far different from your claimed 5000 cal/day after all. I'll shut up now, I promise.

Energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate depends a lot on the amount of lean body mass a person holds. Lean body mass declines with age(unless a person is actively working to maintain it).

A 20 something might hold 150-160lbs of lean body mass without much effort while a 50 year old would be looking at a 25-40% decline from that number with a resulting similar 25-40% decline in their energy expenditure. Not everyone though. But i think that's where the main metabolic discrepancy comes from, a overall decline in skeletal muscle mass as we age.

Dogwood
06-16-2016, 13:22
^^^ I have experiemented with all sorts of carbs from pure sugar to the most complex of the complex. I have not experienced a crash from any of it but it is likely do to moving continuously and metering in the calories on going. I have seen reports from several other mile mirage hikers that talk about the crash and burn.

What all are you metering in? Is it pretty much a large amount of maltodextrin you're regularly flooding your blood stream with on those back to back to back 40+ mile days over 10-14 hr/day hiking durations?


Seems like we all really do process carbs/sugars quite differently. I definitely peak and crash quickly if I eat a lot of soft carbs/sugars at once, others obviously do not.

So, since I do peak/crash myself, I simply meter my sugar intake while on the trail, nibbling on sugars nearly constantly with a pocket full of jelly beans or M&M's, crakers or whatever, maybe to the tune of about ~150 calories per hour, something like that. This keeps up my hiking energy all day perfectly. This is another reason I have never done the "lunch" thing, even in "civilian" life off the trail. Basically, some of us are meal-eaters, others of us are grazers.

By the way: that maltodextrine (sp?) stuff is amazing; quickest blood-sugar boost available, I believe. I use it in topping out on big peaks, I eat a pack of shot blocks (200 cal) with 1000 feet to go, they are like a jet-pack…

I rarely ever need a fast acting artificial sweetener boost from a gel or other sugary food because I aim to never allow myself to get into such a deficient energy state. There are better ways to keep up energy than heavily depend on a highly processed quick acting quick crashing artificial sweetener as maltodextrin OR SUGAR to keep up energy levels particularly over the long term such as on multi day backpacking trips. We can just as well be mindful to meter slower burning LONGER ENERGY LASTING less processed complex carbs in WHOLE FOODS that contain a wider spectrum of nutrients and have our bodies be provided energy by burning good fats.

The artificial sweetener Maltodextrin and gels containing it as the primary ingredient does get into the blood EXTREMELY quickly AS DOES REFINED SIMPLE SUGAR though acting a bit differently in some ways. Maltodextrin gets into the blood stream so fast as a result of having a higher rating on the Glycemic Index than raw sugar. It provides a blood sugar jolt…that has to be quickly and regularly addressed to maintain it to avoid a quickly ensuing energy crash! What might the complexity and consequences be of attempting to maintain this?

The energy provides a quick pick me up as you say CR for possibly getting up that last 1000 ft to a summit where at the top you're possibly crashing by sitting around enjoying the view OR under the scenario of a several hr race OR strenuous short duration workout(NOT the kind of sustained long duration of multi day backpacking) consuming several gels for convenience CONSTANTLY CEASELESSLY metering IN MORE as Malto says to avoid the crash. BUT the quick burst of polysaccharide(sugar) energy is short lived! People's energy crashes more readily with maltodextrin use. Maltodextrin consumption is a spin off of a highly processed highly concentrated sugar consumption process well known but tweaked. The processing and consequences of assimilating maltodextrin are actually quite uniform across a broad spectrum of maltodextrin gel users - quick energy high followed by a rather quick energy valley. You're on a energy roller coaster. That's what generally happens. Gel manufacturers know this. This is why virtually all maltodextrin containing gels state to consume a maltodextrin gel about 15 mins before the quick energy (rocket fuel) needed AND THEN CONSUMING ABOUT 2 MORE GELS EVERY HR TO AVOID THE ENERGY CRASH. If one is to avoid the crash as directed THAT'S A DAMN LOT OF MALTODEXTRIN TO CONSUME in a 12 hr hiking day! That's a darn lot of sugar your body is contending with having who knows what consequences on systems like the gastrointestinal tract! AND, attempting to meter in the quick acting energy from maltodextrin containing gels with other slower burning complex carbs and fats in trail foods over long(Not done in a day) backpacking durations can get complex to accomplish sustained energy. That's why I don't consume maltodextrin as a constant.

Less regular sugary food like substances need, less meticulous metering of maltodextrin gels, and incorporating gels into other trail snack foods in a long hiking day long duration backpacking trip, and less potential for energy valleys grazing regularly with slower burning complex carbs from real food. My idea is TO NEVER get into such a low energy state to begin with that I need to consume an artificial rocket fuel sugar for a quick burst of energy where I then have to contend with a quickly ensuing energy crash. We have better ways to allow for energy needs than heavily relying regularly on sugar highs.

beefsmack
06-16-2016, 15:51
Hello everyone! Been here a long time and want to thank everyone for all the great information you have taught me and others. I've only walked yards of the AT during family trips to Gatlinburg as a child and have been intrigued ever since. Now 35, life happened and getting to even do some section hiking is going to be a while. Looking forward to that day. Until then I will keep learning and walking the local woods.

Really love this topic and have enjoyed the conversation. Fat has gotten a bad wrap over the years because...well its call fat! Fat does not make you fat. The hormone insulin makes you fat. Whenever you eat carbs (sugars and grains), the pancreas puts out insulin either way to get the sugar out of the blood and start storing it in fat cells. Great book titled Why We Get Fat by Gary Tuabes does a much better job than I of explaining. Actually fat is a much....much better source of energy for your body and brain you just have to get through the "crash" of all the glucose/fructose being gone from your blood. If you pretty much eliminate your carbs to leafy green vegetables your liver will then start producing ketones, putting your body in a state of ketosis, which is the ultimate source of energy not only for your body but brain. Please don't confuse ketosis with the serious condition of ketoacidosis. Many of your ultra marathon runners usually rely just on ketones as their energy source so I think that would be much more stress on your body! I eat a lot of fat in my diet, moderate protein, and low carbs. Never a whole stick....but butter in most things because I want a 2-1 ratio of fat to protein. Another good source of fat that could be used on the trail I didn't see mentioned is MCT oil (Medium Chain Triglyceride).

Also saw some worries about cholesterol mentioned. Cholesterol has also gotten a crummy wrap over the years. Your body makes about 2000 grams a day because we need it to survive. There is a lot of research now focusing on inflammation (caused by carbs) as the source of heart disease and other neurological disorder like Alzhemiers. Years ago cholesterol was at the scene of the crime holding the gun and it quickly became the enemy. Now research is moving towards the combination of cholesterol and inflammation. Again some good reads on this would be Cholesterol Clarity by Jimmy Moore and Grain Brain by David Perlmutter.

Anyways.....again thanks for all the wisdom....great stuff here and have enjoyed the reading.

Cheers!

Venchka
06-16-2016, 16:05
I think ramen is particularly damaging to health, because the oil easily gets rancid: even a little rancidity is harmful to health and nutrition.

Whenever a hiker says they are relying on ramen, I can pretty much know they are gorging food in town. Nevertheless, they never catch up with their nutritional needs because rancidity of oils or fats interferes with nutrients in other food items. It is a lose - lose situation.

In fact, ramen was a WWII post-war "invention" to have "the public" "feel full" before there were agricultural food crops available again.

Udon noodles are better.




Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Venchka
06-16-2016, 16:09
Grrrr.....

Stupid phone keyboard.
I was trying to discard all but the last sentence and add:

I have been saying that for some time. Nobody pays any attention.
Specifically, the Japanese noodles made in Australia. They "cook" in a few minutes, taste great and are good for you.
Nobody needs Ramen.

Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

MuddyWaters
06-16-2016, 20:13
People like ramen....because its precooked it cooks fast .
But so is minute rice...hint hint.

The big problem with Ramen, is its very bulky for the few calories. Health aspects aside. A brick has a lot of air space in it.

ChuckT
06-16-2016, 21:56
"Japanese noodles made in Australia". ???
Could you share some specific brands that might be available in the continental US?

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DownEaster
03-17-2017, 14:28
How about too much sodium? Any one getting too much sodium on the trail?
"Too much sodium" is a nutritional concern based on conjecture, not science. See here (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-time-to-end-the-war-on-salt/).

Riocielo
03-17-2017, 17:07
There's actually a way to take cheese and butter backpacking? I couldn't imagine adding a,whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack! [emoji34] Actually, they did make me eat a stick of butter after I pulled a little mischief at military school. YUCK!!

We always carry butter and cheese on our section hikes and make quesadillas for dinner.


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Venchka
03-17-2017, 19:08
"Japanese noodles made in Australia". ???
Could you share some specific brands that might be available in the continental US?

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I can find these in northeast Texas. I reckon they are everywhere.
http://www.hakubaku.com.au/en/products/us/
I have had a Ramen Revelation. Korean Ramen. Look for reviews by the Ramen Rater.
http://www.theramenrater.com/top-ten-lists/by-country/top-ten-south-korean-2017/
Korean Ramen made in California is good too.
Asian markets are the source.
Wayne


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RockDoc
03-17-2017, 19:46
"...whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack!


Please wake up and do some reading. The heart-lipid hypothesis (fat clogging your arteries) was never based on sound science and has been discredited. It's sugar, carbs, and seed oils that cause vascular disease, massive inflammation, and chronic disease.

Oh sorry, Lil Debbie, this is what most hiker food is made of...

AllDownhillFromHere
03-29-2017, 07:07
"...whole stick of butter to a meal, tho.... Just sounds like a recipe for a heart attack!


Please wake up and do some reading. The heart-lipid hypothesis (fat clogging your arteries) was never based on sound science and has been discredited. It's sugar, carbs, and seed oils that cause vascular disease, massive inflammation, and chronic disease.

Oh sorry, Lil Debbie, this is what most hiker food is made of...





mmmm.... Little Debbies. We switched to those after the first 100 snickers bars became boring.

RangerZ
03-29-2017, 07:57
mmmm.... Little Debbies. We switched to those after the first 100 snickers bars became boring.

I know where the Little Debbie guy parks his truck, I'm planning a late night visit. :banana